Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Patrick_Mucci on October 12, 2010, 09:49:30 PM
-
Legend had it that Marion Hollins, a terrific golfer and athlete, changed Raynor's thinking regarding the 16th at CPC when he initially planned it as a par 4.
The legend goes on to say that Marion Hollins, to prove her point that the hole could be a par 3, teed up three balls from a spot 220 yards from the center of the green and landed each one in the middle of what would become the green.
This allegedly occured in or prior to 1926, when Marion was 34 years of age.
Some on this site insisted that the story is true.
Having played that hole a number of times, starting in 1979, I never believed the story/myth.
I hit driver my first time, I hit it solid and low into the wind and just reached the front of the green.
Think about:
The Ball in 1926
The equipment in 1926
The swing in 1926
Now, fast forward 30 years to January 11, 1956.
A lot had happened in those intervening 30 years in terms of improvements to the ball and equipment.
So, at about 2:00pm on January 11, 1956, four rather skilled golfers stepped up onto the 16th tee at CPC.
First to hit was 44 year old,....... Ben Hogan. He hit a driver...... in front of the green
Next to hit was 44 year old Byron Nelson. He hit a driver...... to six feet
Next to hit was 24 year old Ken Venturi. He hit a driver....... left of the green
Last to hit was 30 year old Harvie Ward. He hit a driver....... to five feet.
Ward had previously hit a driver on the hole when he was 7 under par, only to see his round ruined by an 8.
So, the legend would have us believe that Marion Hollins, 30 years earlier, hit the ball as far as Hogan, Nelson, Venturi and Ward.
As an aside, on January 11, 1956, Hogan shot 63, Nelson, 67, Venturi 65 and Ward 67, so it's not as if they were off their games.
Are we to believe that 30 years earlier, with inferior balls and equipment, that Marion Hollins hit THREE balls to the center of the green, a 220 yard shot, a feat that Hogan, Nelson, Venturi and Ward couldn't accomplish amongst themselves ?
Having accompanied Venturi in a match against my dad in 1964, it's beyond belief that Marion Hollins, with equipment of the day (1926), could hit the ball as far as Venturi. Going a step further, with the equipment of 1926 or 1956 there's NO way that Marion Hollins was a player of Venturi's equal, especially with regard to distance. The same goes for Ward, Hogan and Nelson.
But, it's a nice fable.
The question is, who started the myth and why ?
-
Pat, I don't see exactly how you've de-bunked the myth.
Let's say it was 200 yards, not 220. How about if it was downwind? While the examples you gave were into it?
-
Pat, I don't see exactly how you've de-bunked the myth.
I presented the facts on 01-11-56.
I presented the alleged facts in 1926.
If you can find fault with the facts or the logic, please tell me how.
Let's say it was 200 yards, not 220.
You CAN'T change the facts just to suit your point of view.
They are what they are, 220 yards, tee to center of green. 222 to be accurate.
How about if it was downwind?
While the examples you gave were into it?
I can't speak to the conditions in 1926, but, There was little if any wind on January 11, 1956.
On the occassions that I've played there, a heroic carry is required, irrespecitive of the wind.
Do you believe that she was more accurate than Hogan, Nelson, Venturi and Ward ?
If you think you could do it with balls and equipment circa 1926, my BETTING WINDOW remains perpetually open
-
Legend had it that Marion Hollins, a terrific golfer and athlete, changed Raynor's thinking regarding the 16th at CPC when he initially planned it as a par 4.
The legend goes on to say that Marion Hollins, to prove her point that the hole could be a par 3, teed up three balls from a spot 220 yards from the center of the green and landed each one in the middle of what would become the green.
This allegedly occured in or prior to 1926, when Marion was 34 years of age.
Some on this site insisted that the story is true.
Mackenzie recounts the story in "The Spirit of St. Andrews" (p 135) so he apparently believed it to be true in 1933, only a few years after it allegedly happened.
Having played that hole a number of times, starting in 1979, I never believed the story/myth.
I hit driver my first time, I hit it solid and low into the wind and just reached the front of the green.
Think about:
The Ball in 1926
-snip-
Now, fast forward 30 years to January 11, 1956.
A lot had happened in those intervening 30 years in terms of improvements to the ball and equipment.
Well, don't forget that prior to 1930, the golf ball was 1.62" in diameter, and that the balls played by the best players were both heavier and hotter than the balls of the years 1931 through today.
Then, in 1942, the USGA again restricted the ball by creating a velocity limit of 250 feet per second.
The one likely "expert" on these matters, Ralph Livingston, has suggested that the ball Jones used in the 1920s was at least as hot as the modern ProV1, and since it was smaller, it was a very hot ball compared to the one that Hogan, Venuri, et. al. hit
So, at about 2:00pm on January 11, 1956, four rather skilled golfers stepped up onto the 16th tee at CPC.
First to hit was 44 year old,....... Ben Hogan. He hit a driver...... in front of the green
Next to hit was 44 year old Byron Nelson. He hit a driver...... to six feet
Next to hit was 24 year old Ken Venturi. He hit a driver....... left of the green
Last to hit was 30 year old Harvie Ward. He hit a driver....... to five feet.
So, the legend would have us believe that Marion Hollins, 30 years earlier, hit the ball as far as Hogan, Nelson, Venturi and Ward.
As an aside, on January 11, 1956, Hogan shot 63, Nelson, 67, Venturi 65 and Ward 67, so it's not as if they were off their games.
Are we to believe that 30 years earlier, with inferior balls and equipment, that Marion Hollins hit THREE balls to the center of the green, a 220 yard shot, a feat that Hogan, Nelson, Venturi and Ward couldn't accomplish amongst themselves ?
Mackenzie's version of the story doesn't mention three balls, it says: "Miss Hollins said she did not think it was an impossible carry. She then teed up a ball and drove it to the middle of the site for the suggested green."
-
So, at about 2:00pm on January 11, 1956, four rather skilled golfers stepped up onto the 16th tee at CPC.
First to hit was 44 year old,....... Ben Hogan. He hit a driver...... in front of the green
Next to hit was 44 year old Byron Nelson. He hit a driver...... to six feet
Next to hit was 24 year old Ken Venturi. He hit a driver....... left of the green
Last to hit was 30 year old Harvie Ward. He hit a driver....... to five feet.
Ward had previously hit a driver on the hole when he was 7 under par, only to see his round ruined by an 8.
Pat -
Who or what is the source of the above information?
Mike
-
Pat, You used the word "alleged" facts. As well as re-counting a myth, I have heard, but never in such detail.
While the hole currently plays were you played it, at 220, do you think it's always been that distance?
Do you know the carry distance, from center of tee to rock wall?
Pre construction, I doubt the landscape was exactly like it is today, so I allege the facts that you've alleged, are not facts. Thats all I'm saying.
-
So, at about 2:00pm on January 11, 1956, four rather skilled golfers stepped up onto the 16th tee at CPC.
First to hit was 44 year old,....... Ben Hogan. He hit a driver...... in front of the green
Next to hit was 44 year old Byron Nelson. He hit a driver...... to six feet
Next to hit was 24 year old Ken Venturi. He hit a driver....... left of the green
Last to hit was 30 year old Harvie Ward. He hit a driver....... to five feet.
Ward had previously hit a driver on the hole when he was 7 under par, only to see his round ruined by an 8.
Pat -
Who or what is the source of the above information?
Mike
Mark Frost???
Otherwise famous for writing Fantastic Four and Rise of the Silver Surfer and justifiably pilloried here for making up a lot of the details in The Match.
K
-
Pat,
From a match between a Mrs. Reymond and Marion Hollins:
"Marion had taken her stance for a brassie second when a train came down the track. Just as she drew back her club, the whistle blew an awful howl, but she came onto that ball with all the force she had and drove it 200 yards up the fairway."
"On No. 17, the longest hole on the course, Mrs. Reymond played the longest drive of the week, 276 yards as paced by Mr. Charles Green, the president of the club."
"On the37th (hole), both girls (Reymond and Hollins) played drives well past the two hundred mark."
From another article, 1919:
"Miss Marion Hollins, with not quite such a free swing, but with one that was just as effective,was getting tremendous distance, both from the tee and through the green, so far in fact, that in her match with Miss Beatrice Lounseberry, she had a comparatively simple putt for a 3 on the four hundred and something yard fourteenth hole."
In that same article a Mrs Higby :
“…won the driving competition with three drives of 230 yards,230 yards and 220 yards. An average of over 225 yards brings her driving very near the average of a first-class man-golfer. In fact, in this respect it seems that the gap between the driving of the women and of the average first-class man has lessened considerably during the last few years, and instead of the seventy to eighty yards that used to exist, it would take a bold man to attempt to give more than thirty yards to some of these young players of the modern school of golf.”
-
Pat -
Perhaps Hollins hit a few shots that made the 185-yard minimum carry and perhaps she did not attempt this in the dead of winter.
-
Pat just can't stand it that there are women out there that can beat him at golf! Say Pat, can you hit it as far as Yani Tseng?
Tooo bad.
-
Patrick, haven't we had enough discussions about Marion?
Seriously though . . . after duly laying up to my Isthmus out to the left, I've taken a few swipes at the green with period woods, and I have little doubt that Marion Hollins could have made the carry from the current under the right conditions. Granted, I used a modern ball, but Miss Hollins would have probably have bested me by enough to make up for any advantage in my ball. As others noted, the minimum carry is only about 190 yards or a few yards less, and this is comparable to other challenging risk reward carries of that era if not even earlier. For example, I believe this was about the distance of the carry on the most aggressive line at NGLA's Sahara hole.
All that said, I am not sure she was hitting from the current tee. It is not at all clear that the tee is now located in the exact same position as when Miss Hollins was demonstrating the viability of the hole as a par three.
In fact, the inside cover of Geoff Shackelford's CPC book displays AM's 1926 plan, and the par three tee was substantially left, at about the location of the next tee up, and from there it only measured 207 yards to the center of the green, with the shot traveling right along the shoreline. Also, as of this plan, the par 4 option was still ther, with two tee locations, one back toward the 15th green (337 yards on the marked lines) and the other up on the hill behind and golfer's left of the current tee (267 yards.) Here is an approximation of the 1926 plan marked on the aerial.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/CPC16th1926Plan-1.jpg?t=1286940510)
This was of course just AM's plan, and doesn't necessarily reflect what Raynor was thinking, but it could be that Miss Hollins was hitting from a bit closer than you hit now.
-
David, how can you ask anyone else about having had enough discussions about anything when you go on and on about Merion and all your other battles????????????????
-
Paul,
Just because David was involved in the most polarizing thread in GCA history, are you saying he should be sent to Coventry and not participate in further debate?
Bob
-
Pat,
In the early and mid -seventies 70's I remember playing thirteen consecutive rounds at CPC and hitting the green with a three wood. Now its a driver toward the tree in the safety zone. I think Hollins, who was built like a Greyhound bus, would have llittle trouble hitting it on.
I am not sure where you got the information on the clubs that were used by Hogan, Nelson, Venturi and Ward, but I would hope it was not from Frost, his book should be listed under "Fiction."
Bob
-
David, how can you ask anyone else about having had enough discussions about anything when you go on and on about Merion and all your other battles????????????????
It was a joke, and at my expense. You got the irony, yet missed it too. Perhaps puns truly are the lowest form of wit.
Anyway, I hope you didn't find the remainder of my post so offensive.
-
To those interested,
I think there is great room for doubt in many of the facts. But it's really hard to argue
with the photograph.
If the wind was in Ms. Hollins face, it is highly unlikely that she carried the ball
220 yards to the green. But we don't know the wind conditions. The wind on that
hole could easily make for a three-club difference.
Second, Mark Frost is a good writer, but he takes entertainment-necessary liberties
in filling in story gaps. If, however, his facts are correct, it is plausible that all four
men hit cuts with their drivers to avoid the water and stop the ball on the green.
And how sure are we that the wind was minimal? I have my doubts given the location
of the hole, but I don't remember the weather description.
Does the USGS or NOAA or the military have weather reports from the Monterrey Peninsula
on the relevant dates? How about the San Francisco Chronicle?
Or maybe Hollins was actually a man and liked to cross-dress like J. Edgar Hoover?
We need more information,
Dr. Watson
221b Baker Street
-
See:
http://www.montereygolf.com/architectural-profile/mackenzie-monterey-golf.htm
-
Pat, didn't Mackenzie say Hollins did this, in one of his books or articles? So besides the points others have made, the alternative is to say that Mackenzie lied.
-
Bob, Thanks for that link.
_______________________
Whether Marion Hollins hit the drive or not, she sure had impressive credentials when it came to golf courses. She was involved in the development of Women's National, Cypress Point Club, Pasatiempo, and Augusta National. Her father was a founder at NGLA.
Has there been any female like her in modern times?
______________________
Jim Nugent.
AM's was not a first-hand account of the event.
-
Laura Davies, can make that shot with a 2 iron. Let's let Marion have her driver, and no doubt she can make the shot.
You have LPGA pros that can wind up and hit it 300 yards. Now take away 25% for equipment. They still make the shot with room to spare.
Patrick, your argument is quite specious, and tiring.
Say hi to your nurse for me, and take a rest.
-
Pat,
I seem to recall that Ben Hogan's driving average in the late 40's was 265 yards so 220 yards with the driver would surgest an into the wind shot. I would suggest that a shot of 220 yards for Marion Hollins was more than realistic given her ability.
Jon
-
There's a great picture of her in mid-swing in the book Creating Classics by Lord and Pugh. When you see the shoulder turn she has, it's not hard to believe she could make the carry. She looks like she could murder the ball.
-
"Has there been any female like her in modern times?"
Who on here has read David Outerbridge's biography of Marion Hollins---"Marion Hollins, a Woman in a Man's World?"
Outerbridge's wife was Marion's niece. About five years ago she told us we could have all the books that were left and were stored in her barn on the farm in Lincolnville, Me. We never made it up there to get them; Cypress Point bought them and they're now for sale in the pro shop.
To say Marion Hollins was an anomaly for a woman athlete is really putting it mildly and golf was not the only sport she was world-class at. The photo of her hitting the first shot at Pasa is a still action study of a backswing that could generate some real power and as Bob H. said she was a very big lady! ;)
-
As for the story of her hitting a ball to the proposed par 3 16th green, the way I tend to look at that is Mackenzie who was a very good friend of Marion's wrote that story in his book in 1933 and apparently Grantland Rice wrote about it too around that time. Marion was certainly still around and would be for a number of years and if it never happened at all I find it pretty hard to believe they would all agree to just tell a total lie like that.
-
The photo of her hitting the first shot at Pasa is a still action study of a backswing that could generate some real power and as Bob H. said she was a very big lady! ;)
TEPaul:
Maybe that's the same picture I'm referring to. It's incredible!
-
I hadn't thought that much about it but the story of Marion hitting that shot is sometimes assumed to have been something she did when Mackenzie was there but on a closer reading one sees it was Raynor she was with when she did it. Raynor died in Jan 1926. If she hit that shot with Raynor it probably means that hole was set at that point as a potential par 3 and Mackenzie sort of inherited it as part of the routing, even though how to actually do it seemed to at first confuse him.
And Mackenzie did mention that he used as his "shot tester" Lapham's son who he said was really long.
I feel the story has truth but some of the numbers and distances may've gotten a bit skewed in the telling. But the thing is Pat, Marion Hollins really was long, very long and somehow you don't seem willing to accept that fact.
I recommend to everyone to get the biography about her as it portrays a person who was not just a good golfer (for instance she may've been one of the best woman polo players ever and as a "Four-in-Hand Driver" she apparently had no woman peer or perhaps no peer at all) but a really remarkable person in all kinds of other ways but not without some complexities for sure.
As a visionary, a natural born risk-taker, a globe trotter, a woman with more friends and connections than I've almost ever heard of she was just something else. But even with all that she seemed to be (at least so many said of her) that she was or could be very mild-mannered and at times even a bit anti-competitive in a way that might be termed "overly generous." All-in, that may've had something to do with the fact she may've been inherently shy and just over compensated in some of the things she imagined and tried.
To me she didn't seem to be particularly proprietary either with some of her projects, such as Women National which it seems she started and then sort of lost some touch with when she moved west. To "shot test" for the hole concepts of Women National she picked her great friend and three time US Amateur champion, Alexa Stirling of Georgia, to do the shot testing figuring if she did it herself it would not be representative as she knew how unusually long she was.
"A Woman in a Man's World" is an excellent title for a biography of Marion Hollins. She was a TRULY remarkable person for sure who like many of her ilk and era ended up with too much tragedy. And then there was her pretty much lifelong cross to bear of her father, the inimitable Harry Hollins, big-time financial risk taker who actually went broke in 1913 thereby precipitating the giving up of the incredibly rich and fortunate life Marion grew up into in New York and Long Island.
What a gal.
PS:
She was also The Babe's original mentor in golf and taught the Babe from her beginning.
PPS:
When asked why she never married her response was something like: "I'm too busy to do that."
-
PS:
She was also The Babe's original mentor in golf and taught the Babe from her beginning.
Ruth or Zaharias?
-
PS:
She was also The Babe's original mentor in golf and taught the Babe from her beginning.
Ruth or Zaharias?
"She was also The Babe's original mentor in golf and taught the Babe from her beginning."
-
Patrick, haven't we had enough discussions about Marion?
Now, that's FUNNY!
A little more levity in the Merion threads may have leavened some of the heat/hatred/vitriol that we had to endure.
I say, "more Marion, less Merion"! ;D
-
Legend had it that Marion Hollins, a terrific golfer and athlete, changed Raynor's thinking regarding the 16th at CPC when he initially planned it as a par 4.
The legend goes on to say that Marion Hollins, to prove her point that the hole could be a par 3, teed up three balls from a spot 220 yards from the center of the green and landed each one in the middle of what would become the green.
This allegedly occured in or prior to 1926, when Marion was 34 years of age.
Some on this site insisted that the story is true.
Having played that hole a number of times, starting in 1979, I never believed the story/myth.
I hit driver my first time, I hit it solid and low into the wind and just reached the front of the green.
Think about:
The Ball in 1926
The equipment in 1926
The swing in 1926
Now, fast forward 30 years to January 11, 1956.
A lot had happened in those intervening 30 years in terms of improvements to the ball and equipment.
So, at about 2:00pm on January 11, 1956, four rather skilled golfers stepped up onto the 16th tee at CPC.
First to hit was 44 year old,....... Ben Hogan. He hit a driver...... in front of the green
Next to hit was 44 year old Byron Nelson. He hit a driver...... to six feet
Next to hit was 24 year old Ken Venturi. He hit a driver....... left of the green
Last to hit was 30 year old Harvie Ward. He hit a driver....... to five feet.
Ward had previously hit a driver on the hole when he was 7 under par, only to see his round ruined by an 8.
So, the legend would have us believe that Marion Hollins, 30 years earlier, hit the ball as far as Hogan, Nelson, Venturi and Ward.
As an aside, on January 11, 1956, Hogan shot 63, Nelson, 67, Venturi 65 and Ward 67, so it's not as if they were off their games.
Are we to believe that 30 years earlier, with inferior balls and equipment, that Marion Hollins hit THREE balls to the center of the green, a 220 yard shot, a feat that Hogan, Nelson, Venturi and Ward couldn't accomplish amongst themselves ?
Having accompanied Venturi in a match against my dad in 1964, it's beyond belief that Marion Hollins, with equipment of the day (1926), could hit the ball as far as Venturi. Going a step further, with the equipment of 1926 or 1956 there's NO way that Marion Hollins was a player of Venturi's equal, especially with regard to distance. The same goes for Ward, Hogan and Nelson.
But, it's a nice fable.
The question is, who started the myth and why ?
The story is not that old so it's more likely true than not.
If it were 1726.... ;)
-
How is it possible that those four guys hit drivers in anything less than a very strong wind?
-
How is it possible that those four guys hit drivers in anything less than a very strong wind?
It's taken from a fictional book Jim!
-
Maybe I should have asked Pat the question directly...because it's the singular source of this thread.
-
How is it possible that those four guys hit drivers in anything less than a very strong wind?
1956 persimmon at sea level in a breeze?
-
How is it possible that those four guys hit drivers in anything less than a very strong wind?
1956 persimmon at sea level in a breeze?
Two weeks before Ben Hogan died he was still striping it 250 with persimmon. Me thinks everyone has developed this silly idea that modern technology be-all/end-all.
-
Legend had it that Marion Hollins, a terrific golfer and athlete, changed Raynor's thinking regarding the 16th at CPC when he initially planned it as a par 4.
The legend goes on to say that Marion Hollins, to prove her point that the hole could be a par 3, teed up three balls from a spot 220 yards from the center of the green and landed each one in the middle of what would become the green.
This allegedly occured in or prior to 1926, when Marion was 34 years of age.
Some on this site insisted that the story is true.
Mackenzie recounts the story in "The Spirit of St. Andrews" (p 135) so he apparently believed it to be true in 1933, only a few years after it allegedly happened.
That's not true
MacKenzie's version has her hitting ONLY one ball
Why do you suppose his story differs from the other ?
Having played that hole a number of times, starting in 1979, I never believed the story/myth.
I hit driver my first time, I hit it solid and low into the wind and just reached the front of the green.
Think about:
The Ball in 1926
-snip-
Now, fast forward 30 years to January 11, 1956.
A lot had happened in those intervening 30 years in terms of improvements to the ball and equipment.
Well, don't forget that prior to 1930, the golf ball was 1.62" in diameter, and that the balls played by the best players were both heavier and hotter than the balls of the years 1931 through today.
What makes you think that the balls were both heavier and hotter ?
Then, in 1942, the USGA again restricted the ball by creating a velocity limit of 250 feet per second.
The one likely "expert" on these matters, Ralph Livingston, has suggested that the ball Jones used in the 1920s was at least as hot as the modern ProV1, and since it was smaller, it was a very hot ball compared to the one that Hogan, Venuri, et. al. hit
And, the equipment in 1926 ? ? ?
To suggest that golfers were carrying their drives further in 1926 than in 1956 is absurd
So, at about 2:00pm on January 11, 1956, four rather skilled golfers stepped up onto the 16th tee at CPC.
First to hit was 44 year old,....... Ben Hogan. He hit a driver...... in front of the green
Next to hit was 44 year old Byron Nelson. He hit a driver...... to six feet
Next to hit was 24 year old Ken Venturi. He hit a driver....... left of the green
Last to hit was 30 year old Harvie Ward. He hit a driver....... to five feet.
So, the legend would have us believe that Marion Hollins, 30 years earlier, hit the ball as far as Hogan, Nelson, Venturi and Ward.
As an aside, on January 11, 1956, Hogan shot 63, Nelson, 67, Venturi 65 and Ward 67, so it's not as if they were off their games.
Are we to believe that 30 years earlier, with inferior balls and equipment, that Marion Hollins hit THREE balls to the center of the green, a 220 yard shot, a feat that Hogan, Nelson, Venturi and Ward couldn't accomplish amongst themselves ?
Mackenzie's version of the story doesn't mention three balls, it says: "Miss Hollins said she did not think it was an impossible carry. She then teed up a ball and drove it to the middle of the site for the suggested green."
S.
-
Pat,
From a match between a Mrs. Reymond and Marion Hollins:
"Marion had taken her stance for a brassie second when a train came down the track. Just as she drew back her club, the whistle blew an awful howl, but she came onto that ball with all the force she had and drove it 200 yards up the fairway."
"On No. 17, the longest hole on the course, Mrs. Reymond played the longest drive of the week, 276 yards as paced by Mr. Charles Green, the president of the club."
"On the37th (hole), both girls (Reymond and Hollins) played drives well past the two hundred mark."
From another article, 1919:
"Miss Marion Hollins, with not quite such a free swing, but with one that was just as effective,was getting tremendous distance, both from the tee and through the green, so far in fact, that in her match with Miss Beatrice Lounseberry, she had a comparatively simple putt for a 3 on the four hundred and something yard fourteenth hole."
In that same article a Mrs Higby :
“…won the driving competition with three drives of 230 yards,230 yards and 220 yards. An average of over 225 yards brings her driving very near the average of a first-class man-golfer. In fact, in this respect it seems that the gap between the driving of the women and of the average first-class man has lessened considerably during the last few years, and instead of the seventy to eighty yards that used to exist, it would take a bold man to attempt to give more than thirty yards to some of these young players of the modern school of golf.”
Jim,
You're not going to equate driving distance with carry distance are you ?
Especially on UNIRRIGATED FAIRWAYS
But, your quotes seem to prove my point.
If her total driving distance was 220 to 230 certainly a good deal of the driving distance would be attributed to roll.
As you also know, the air is usually much, much, much heavier close to the sea than far inland, robbing golfers of distance.
And, the report that the "First Class Man" drives the ball that distance would refute the imbecils on this site that contend that men or women were driving the ball prodigious distances with incredible carries
I think the citations you provided support the refutation of the myth
-
Pat, didn't Mackenzie say Hollins did this, in one of his books or articles?
He recounts the event with Raynor on page 135 of TSOSA, he didn't witness the alleged event, and only recounts.
So besides the points others have made, the alternative is to say that Mackenzie lied.
Jim,
You can't be that stupid.
If the story/myth was relayed to Dr M, and he repeated it, why would he by lying, irrespective of the authenticity of the story ?
If David Moriarty told you that CBM was responsible for a good deal of what occured at Merion and you repeated that to TEPaul, would you be lying ? ;D
-
"The question is, who started the myth and why ?"
Pat, you are far from establishing this incident is a myth. I don't know if it happned or not, but I have no doubt whatsoever that it could have. I recall you not believing Bobby Jones' comment that he hit a drive 300 yards uphill. I know I side with Bobby on that one and if he can poke it 300 uphill Marion Hollis could it ~220.
Has anybody established the carry distance or the tee used?
Ciao
-
How is it possible that those four guys hit drivers in anything less than a very strong wind?
1956 persimmon at sea level in a breeze?
Two weeks before Ben Hogan died he was still striping it 250 with persimmon. Me thinks everyone has developed this silly idea that modern technology be-all/end-all.
That's PURE, UNADULTERATED BS
Have someone check your meds, you're hallucinating.....again
-
Pat:
Why do you think the story about 1956 is reliable but the story about 1926 isn't? And even if the facts are true regarding 1956 about the clubs hit and how close to the hole, why are you so certain there wasn't any wind?
-
How is it possible that those four guys hit drivers in anything less than a very strong wind?
1956 persimmon at sea level in a breeze?
Two weeks before Ben Hogan died he was still striping it 250 with persimmon. Me thinks everyone has developed this silly idea that modern technology be-all/end-all.
That's PURE, UNADULTERATED BS
Have someone check your meds, you're hallucinating.....again
Now you are calling Mike Wright golf pro at Shady Oaks a liar. The reference is Ben Hogan An American Life by James Dodson. It is recounted in the Prologue.
-
How is it possible that those four guys hit drivers in anything less than a very strong wind?
1956 persimmon at sea level in a breeze?
Two weeks before Ben Hogan died he was still striping it 250 with persimmon. Me thinks everyone has developed this silly idea that modern technology be-all/end-all.
That's PURE, UNADULTERATED BS
Have someone check your meds, you're hallucinating.....again
Patrick,
Ben Hogan was hitting his driver an average of 265 yards in the late 40's (ref. Power Golf by Ben Hogan)
Jon
-
Pat,
I seem to recall that Ben Hogan's driving average in the late 40's was 265 yards so 220 yards with the driver would surgest an into the wind shot. I would suggest that a shot of 220 yards for Marion Hollins was more than realistic given her ability.
Jon,
It's possible, that in Texas, on unirrigated fairways that Hogan, in the late 40's, at age 36 or so, had a total driving distance of 265 yards.
But, it wasn't until much later that golfers discovered that distance was a function of launch angle, trajectory, not a running draw which was a great distance getter prior to irrigated fairways. The low draw was NOT prone to great carry distances. Nicklaus was probably the first to hit howitzer like drives.
In 1965, 9 years removed, when Hogan was 52/53 I watched him play in the PGA at Laurel Valley with Ken Venturi.
The previous year, soon after his U.S. Open win, Ken played with my dad at my home club with me tagging along, keenly interested in every shot he hit.
In the 60's, the driving distance between PGA Tour Pros and the better amateurs wasn't that great.
-
How is it possible that those four guys hit drivers in anything less than a very strong wind?
1956 persimmon at sea level in a breeze?
Bill,
Anyone who has played an oceanside course knows how heavy that air can get.
Many on GCA.com weren't even born in 1956 and as such have no idea as to the functioning of the I&B in 1956 or earlier.
-
How is it possible that those four guys hit drivers in anything less than a very strong wind?
1956 persimmon at sea level in a breeze?
Two weeks before Ben Hogan died he was still striping it 250 with persimmon. Me thinks everyone has developed this silly idea that modern technology be-all/end-all.
That's PURE, UNADULTERATED BS
Have someone check your meds, you're hallucinating.....again
Patrick,
Ben Hogan was hitting his driver an average of 265 yards in the late 40's (ref. Power Golf by Ben Hogan)
Jon, that's TOTAL driving distance on UNIRRIGATED FAIRWAYS..... in Texas ?
NOT CARRY
Jon
-
Pat -
Perhaps Hollins hit a few shots that made the 185-yard minimum carry and perhaps she did not attempt this in the dead of winter.
Michael,
Have you played the hole ?
-
How is it possible that those four guys hit drivers in anything less than a very strong wind?
1956 persimmon at sea level in a breeze?
Two weeks before Ben Hogan died he was still striping it 250 with persimmon. Me thinks everyone has developed this silly idea that modern technology be-all/end-all.
That's PURE, UNADULTERATED BS
Have someone check your meds, you're hallucinating.....again
Now you are calling Mike Wright golf pro at Shady Oaks a liar. The reference is Ben Hogan An American Life by James Dodson. It is recounted in the Prologue.
ABSOLUTELY, it's absolute nonsense
And, you're an idiot if you believe it.
At 85 and in poor health with poor eyesight, we're to believe that Hogan was driving it 250 with a persimmon wood
Please, get a grip and have someone check your meds
-
Pat:
Why do you think the story about 1956 is reliable but the story about 1926 isn't?
The NUMBER OF WITNESSES
And even if the facts are true regarding 1956 about the clubs hit and how close to the hole, why are you so certain there wasn't any wind?
Because the official recorded wind velocity that day was 1.8 knots
-
Patrick, who is your source for the 1956 info? If it is Frost, do you realize the guy writes fiction?
I think you are too easily discounting the 1.62 ball. I've hit the smaller ball a few times and it does generally fly further and lower, and into any sort of wind is a better choice.
Cheers,
Dan King
It became slowly but painfully apparent that playing a different sized ball in the championship matches of each country would present a problem, if not an ultimatum. The R & A followed the usual practice of British diplomacy. They thought a sensible compromise was possible, in the shape of a ball somewhere in between. They manufactured two experimental balls, 1.65 and 1.66 inches in diameter respectively. They were offered to the Americans as a proud solution. The Americans, however, remembering Jefferson and the Louisiana Purchase (which was unconstitutional, and sneaky, but worked), had a better idea. Why not compromise, they suggested, by using our ball. And so it was. The bigger American ball is now compulsory in all R & A championships and in British professional tournaments.
--Alister Cooke
-
Patrick, who is your source for the 1956 info? If it is Frost, do you realize the guy writes fiction?
Dan, good to see you back posting again. BUT,
Why is EVERYTHING Frost writes deemed "fiction" yet, the account of Marion Hollins's shots deemed "fact" ?
The number of witnesses on Jan 11, 1956 is exponentially greater than those circa 1926.
We don't even know if the 1926 event ever occured. There were no third party witnesses
We do know that the 1956 event occured and what the conditions were.
There were hundreds, if not thousands of witnesses.
I think you are too easily discounting the 1.62 ball. I've hit the smaller ball a few times and it does generally fly further and lower, and into any sort of wind is a better choice.
Dan, you indicate that the 1.62 ball flies lower, however, we know that carry requires elevated trajectory, something the small ball was NOT good at. That's why the "One Ball" rule came into effect, because golfers were selecting a ball for play on a given hole based upon whether they needed to "balloon" the ball downwind, or hit a lower trajectory shot into the wind/crosswind.
What I find absurd about some of the replies is the inference that the I&B in 1926 were superior to those in succeeding years.
If that was the case, why didn't golfers retain their 1926 I&B's, effectively discarding I&B issued subsequently.
I have also played the small ball, extensively, compared to others replying on this thread. Downwind it was LESS effective.
It's claim to fame was the reduced influence the wind had on it, keeping it low, on the deck with a little more distance into a wind/crosswind.
-
Patrick-
Is that the average or the highest recorded gust? And where are/were those recordings taken?
-
Pat,
Are you saying that those four guys needed their drivers to hit the ball 220 yards with 1.8 knots of wind in their faces?
Oh wait, I just went and looked again...Hogan was in front of the green. Should we give him 205?
You're using a fiction novel for your source, and all you can do is say there were hundreds if not thousands of people at the event. I'm sure there were, unfortunately your source wasn't one of them.
On its own, with no relation to the events of 1956, why is it so impossible for a long hitting female golfer to hit the ball over 200 yards in the air in 1926? Just one ball...
-
Patrick-
Is that the average or the highest recorded gust? And where are/were those recordings taken?
Carl,
Would you like the wind velocity as their foursome approached the tee, upon leaving the tee, as each golfer teed his ball up, as each golfer struck his ball, at the ball's mid-point to the green, or as it landed on the green.
Stop being ridiculous.
-
Patrick Mucci writes:
Dan, good to see you back posting again.
Thanks. I still check in. I just feel like I've run out of things to say.
BUT,
Why is EVERYTHING Frost writes deemed "fiction" yet, the account of Marion Hollins's shots deemed "fact" ?
I don't think I made any comment on Hollin's shots. My problem is you are using an unreliable source to disprove something. Let us know if you have a better, more reliable source. If Frost lacks information -- he makes it up. I have no idea if this is one of those times Frost is making up stuff or if he got the info from a reliable source. He fails to tell us what he makes up and what he gets from sources.
It's possible the Hollins story is a myth. But you are going to have to come up with better reason to doubt it than a fiction writer writing about an unrelated event.
The number of witnesses on Jan 11, 1956 is exponentially greater than those circa 1926.
It really doesn't matter how many people were there if you are relying on the word of someone who makes stuff up. You, me and Frost all were not there.
We don't even know if the 1926 event ever occured. There were no third party witnesses
It's possible it didn't. Just like many things from the past we are left with sources that might not be entirely reliable.
We do know that the 1956 event occured and what the conditions were.
There were hundreds, if not thousands of witnesses.
And what did the witnesses see?
I have also played the small ball, extensively, compared to others replying on this thread. Downwind it was LESS effective.
It's claim to fame was the reduced influence the wind had on it, keeping it low, on the deck with a little more distance into a wind/crosswind.
It didn't need to be effective. It just needed to get across. If you need to get across a couple hundred-yard chasm with no worried about a target which ball would you want to use? I'd pick the 1.62.
Hollins could whack away with no concerns about target. All she had to do was clear a hurdle. A bit different from what was happening in 1956.
Is it your position that no women golfers in the 1920s that could hit a ball 200 yards in the air?
Cheers,
Dan King
We played all our competitions off men's tees. We played country matches off men's tees, we played our county championship off men's tees, we played our championships off of men's tees. What do they do now? They play from the up women's tees. Today they say, 'Oh, we can't make it too tough, otherwise people won't want to play.' It's easy to drop standards and it's hellish hard to get them up.
--Enid Wilson
-
Pat,
Are you saying that those four guys needed their drivers to hit the ball 220 yards with 1.8 knots of wind in their faces?
Jim, I can't tell you what the wind velocity was at the moment of impact for each of the four golfers, but, on January 11, 1956 at a nearby weather station, 1.8 knots was the average wind speed for the day.
Oh wait, I just went and looked again...Hogan was in front of the green. Should we give him 205?
He was thirty feet away, so 210-212 would seem appropriate.
Have you ever played the hole ?
Are you aware of the effect of the sea spray from the waves crashing into the rocks below the tee ?
The heavy nature of Ocean air.
You're using a fiction novel for your source, and all you can do is say there were hundreds if not thousands of people at the event. I'm sure there were, unfortunately your source wasn't one of them.
Why do you categorize the book as a "fictional novel" ?
Frost interviewed Venturi and Nelson, both participants, along with Joey Solis, the caddymaster a witness that day, along with others.
Are Venturi and Nelson liars ?
In 1991 I spoke to Nelson for about a half an hour about this match and a number of topics when just the two of us were alone in the USGA Library in Far Hills
I also spoke to Venturi about Eddie Lowery, the match at CPC, ANGC, The Masters and other topics a number of years ago.[/color]
On its own, with no relation to the events of 1956, why is it so impossible for a long hitting female golfer to hit the ball over 200 yards in the air in 1926?
Have you played the hole ?
We're talking about three (3) 220 yard shots, with at least a 200 yard carry, in heavy air, with I&B from 1926.
That's a feat that Venturi couldn't duplicate on 01-11-56.
In 1979, my first trip to CPC, I hit driver both times and just made the front putting surface.
In 1979 I played in the US Am, so I was a fairly decent golfer even at the age of 37, only three years older than Marion.
However, I was also playing other sports, including full court basketball in a league, hockey in a league and football in a league, along with Karate in my spare time, so I was reasonably fit from an athletic perspective
Why are you and others so anxious to embrace the Marion Hollins myth and reject the events of 01-11-56 ?
-
Dan King,
Not just in the air, but in the ocean air, with sea spray added to the mix.
For all those who think a carry of 200 yards is no big deal, just take an old club, a really old club, circa 1926 and try to do it with today's golf ball.
Then, try it in heavy ocean air.
Then, factor in the 1926 swing, where the right elbow is tight to the body reducing the arc.
Then add in that super ball from 1926, the one that everybody is saying was so hot.
If it was so hot, why didn't it survive.
In addition, in 1926 there were many balls, so which brand did she use ?
And, Did she use Old balls, new balls, used balls ?
How can you attribute perfect conditions and execution to everything she allegedly did that day.
And, why isn't the same burden of proof being required of Hollins's alleged shots ?
-
It seems that Mr. Mucci is unwilling to admit that Marion Hollins might have been a longer player than he ever was. Pat you shouldn't take it so hard, by all accounts she stood 7'4" and could fell an ox with a single blow.
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=F30D14F6345E13738DDDAE0894DE405B838DF1D3
http://chestofbooks.com/sports/golf/Golf-For-Women/The-Length-Of-The-Back-Swing.html
-
Patrick_Mucci writes:
Not just in the air, but in the ocean air, with sea spray added to the mix.
Sea spray? Seriously? I've played Cypress a few times in my life. I don't ever remember getting hit by sea spray.
Then add in that super ball from 1926, the one that everybody is saying was so hot.
If it was so hot, why didn't it survive.
It was outlawed by the USGA. When balls are outlawed only outlaws will have balls.
Hollins 1926 swing was probably more sound than mine and I've cleared it with an iron -- granted a modern iron and a modern ball.
And, why isn't the same burden of proof being required of Hollins's alleged shots ?
I've made no claim for Hollins.
I'm sick of all this crap about today's baseball players not being as tough as the players of a different era. Lets not forget, Mighty Casey has struck out. What a choker. And how come they haven't even come close to pitching a fastball as fast as Sid Finch? Lincecum and Holliday don't even come close to Finch's 168 mph fastball.
I don't have my books here with me, but I believe it was Freddie Tait(?) who supposedly drove the 13th green at TOC, with 250 yards on the fly, using a feathery. His Dad, a professor at ST. Andrews calculated the farthest the ball could travel was 220 until his son proved him wrong.
You want to use professional golfers at the Open to disprove Tait's accomplishment?
Cheers,
Dan King
"I'm standing in there to give this guy a target, just waving the bat once or twice out over the plate. He starts his windup. He sways way back, like Juan Marichal, this hiking boot comes clomping over—I thought maybe he was wearing it for balance or something—and he suddenly rears upright like a catapult. The ball is launched from an arm completely straight up and stiff. Before you can blink, the ball is in the catcher's mitt. You hear it crack, and then there's this little bleat from Reynolds."
--John Christensen (via George Plimpton)
-
Pat Mucci -- what is your source for Venturi's and Ward's club selections on the 16th? Frost goes into great detail about the choice of driver for Hogan and Nelson, but he is silent on the club choice of the other two. There is a reference to Venturi's "drive" (a strange word choice for a shot on a par 3), but one can hit a drive without a driver, can't one?
-
Oops, my mistake. It wouldn't have been a feathery with young Mr. Tait. It would have been the gutty.
Cheers,
Dan King
Bah, That thing'll never flee.
--Allan Robertson (on hitting a gutty ball for the first time)
-
What is the source of the "3 balls" story? Where was it published and/or what is its provenance?
-
In 1985, I hit a MacGregor persimmon 3 wood, steel shaft, balata ball that landed, had no roll and was 5 feet short of the green. I am not long. Marion's shot was very possible.
Have you looked at a lot of pictures of her? With her background, I have no doubt that she had good technique and probably went after it pretty hard. I heard Knute Rockne offered her a position at linebacker if she cut her hair.
-
;)Ah, Lynn Shackelford. I STILL carry a MacGregor persimmon 3 wood, with a stiff shaft in my bag. I've had it since 1971. It is my second most treasured golf possession after my Gary Player Black Knight putter (circa 1968).
-
Pat,
I seem to recall that Ben Hogan's driving average in the late 40's was 265 yards so 220 yards with the driver would surgest an into the wind shot. I would suggest that a shot of 220 yards for Marion Hollins was more than realistic given her ability.
Jon,
It's possible, that in Texas, on unirrigated fairways that Hogan, in the late 40's, at age 36 or so, had a total driving distance of 265 yards.
But, it wasn't until much later that golfers discovered that distance was a function of launch angle, trajectory, not a running draw which was a great distance getter prior to irrigated fairways. The low draw was NOT prone to great carry distances. Nicklaus was probably the first to hit howitzer like drives.
In 1965, 9 years removed, when Hogan was 52/53 I watched him play in the PGA at Laurel Valley with Ken Venturi.
The previous year, soon after his U.S. Open win, Ken played with my dad at my home club with me tagging along, keenly interested in every shot he hit.
In the 60's, the driving distance between PGA Tour Pros and the better amateurs wasn't that great.
Patrick,
it is possible that the distances were taken from his play on the US Tour which was played in other states such as California. I believe Riviera and Pebble Beach might have similar 'HEAVY' air to CPC though having not had the pleasure of playing any of them I would have to bow to your superior experience on you to claim the air was different at CPC the PB. I believe BH also hit a pretty mean ball even before JN's time.
Jon
-
Pat, didn't Mackenzie say Hollins did this, in one of his books or articles?
He recounts the event with Raynor on page 135 of TSOSA, he didn't witness the alleged event, and only recounts.
So besides the points others have made, the alternative is to say that Mackenzie lied.
Jim,
You can't be that stupid.
If the story/myth was relayed to Dr M, and he repeated it, why would he by lying, irrespective of the authenticity of the story ?
If David Moriarty told you that CBM was responsible for a good deal of what occured at Merion and you repeated that to TEPaul, would you be lying ? ;D
I had thought Mac was there. Thanks to David Moriarty for pointing up my mistake. You guys are right, the story doesn't mean much.
Overall, I think you raised reasonable doubt. At the same time, the other side is reasonable too. Without more direct info, seems like a tossup to me.
-
I see Pat's point as it is a story that seems to be larger than life, especially for the day. However, there has to be a reason that a hole which was originally drawn up as a par four, was later changed to a par three with an extremely long carry over water. If Hoillins was not able to produce that shot, what do you think was the main reason to change that hole to a par three? It's not like the hole was a plain 220 yard par three with just flat land in front of it. It required a massive hit for that time period, so something must have happened to convince the architect to change the 16th to a courageous par three. If it wasn't Hollins hitting that shot on the green, what do you think was the main reason for changing that hole from a par 4 to a par 3? I don't have an answer but would be interested in hearing some theories.
-
For what it is worth........Harvie and I were very good friends. In fact I am actually in Mark Frost's book and have played CPC with Harvie. Harvie rarely spoke about the match and only when asked. He was actually bothered that he and Ken lost. He felt that he and Ken were better than Hogan and Nelson in 1956. I do know that the story on how the match came to pass has a little more juice to it, but I am bound to secrecy. While at Ken's house with Harvie in 2004 they spoke briefly about the match. I recall Ken suggesting that everyone hit driver on 16. Harvie said that he and Hogan never hit driver on 16. He always layed up and would get up and down for par. Harvie said he hit driver that day because Hogan did and Harvie knew he needed birdie. Harvie also told me that he always hit his drive on 17 to the right side of the tree where there were just a few paces of fairway.
-
I see Pat's point as it is a story that seems to be larger than life, especially for the day. However, there has to be a reason that a hole which was originally drawn up as a par four, was later changed to a par three with an extremely long carry over water. If Hoillins was not able to produce that shot, what do you think was the main reason to change that hole to a par three? It's not like the hole was a plain 220 yard par three with just flat land in front of it. It required a massive hit for that time period, so something must have happened to convince the architect to change the 16th to a courageous par three. If it wasn't Hollins hitting that shot on the green, what do you think was the main reason for changing that hole from a par 4 to a par 3? I don't have an answer but would be interested in hearing some theories.
According to Pat's version, Marion failed, so Raynor teed one up and showed it could be done.
;D
-
I'm with Patrick on this one. The best players in the world are pounding driver hole high in 1956, and I'm to believe that a woman 30 years prior (maybe even wandering around in a dress) carried a ball 220? Sounds like a tall tale to me.
-
Patrick-
Is that the average or the highest recorded gust? And where are/were those recordings taken?
Carl,
Would you like the wind velocity as their foursome approached the tee, upon leaving the tee, as each golfer teed his ball up, as each golfer struck his ball, at the ball's mid-point to the green, or as it landed on the green.
Stop being ridiculous.
Patrick:
This was really tongue-in-cheek. Since relatively little is really known about either event, it's hard to draw any serious conclusions about the 1926 event.
Serious question -- where do you get the data for 1956?
-
I'm with Patrick on this one. The best players in the world are pounding driver hole high in 1956, and I'm to believe that a woman 30 years prior (maybe even wandering around in a dress) carried a ball 220? Sounds like a tall tale to me.
None of the best players in the world were pounding driver to reach 220 yards. That's ridiculous! Those guys could reach 220 with a half swing. Pat's insistence on this supposed data from 1956 is pure fantasy.
-
While I find it somewhat entertaining debating who hit what club and ball when on a great golf hole, perhaps we could persuade Jeff Dawson to share details of the 1956 match. The bit of information he offered drew my interest. I ante up the 1st box of Pro V 1's t be shipped to Jeff if we can twist his arm to share !!
-
While I find it somewhat entertaining debating who hit what club and ball when on a great golf hole, perhaps we could persuade Jeff Dawson to share details of the 1956 match. The bit of information he offered drew my interest. I ante up the 1st box of Pro V 1's t be shipped to Jeff if we can twist his arm to share !!
Agreed.I'll split the ante with you--2 sleeves apiece.
-
Pat,
RTJ Sr. based his changes at Oakland Hills for the '51 Open on this information: "Recent tests I made during Open Championships proved that the average carry of the entire field is about 240 yards. Better than ten players carry 250 yards and scarcely anyone in the field carries less than 230 yards, illustrating that features outside these limits are of no penal value."
That seems to be several yards longer than the 220 or so needed at Cypress. ???
-
Sorry gentleman, too much to type....... perhaps in person if our paths cross.
Oh....and it's a great story ;)
-
Jeff:
What's your number?
;D
-
What is the source of the "3 balls" story? Where was it published and/or what is its provenance?
Charlie,
That's what I'd like to know.
There appears to be no documentation or first person reference to it, hence, it would seem to be a myth based on the inability to locate ANY reliable source.
-
I'm with Patrick on this one. The best players in the world are pounding driver hole high in 1956, and I'm to believe that a woman 30 years prior (maybe even wandering around in a dress) carried a ball 220? Sounds like a tall tale to me.
None of the best players in the world were pounding driver to reach 220 yards. That's ridiculous! Those guys could reach 220 with a half swing. Pat's insistence on this supposed data from 1956 is pure fantasy.
Garland,
Are you calling Jeff Dawson a liar ?
He's quoting TWO of the participants that day.
What's your source ?
What proof do you have that Frost, myself and Dawson are in error
-
Pat,
Here's more info from Jones that adds some depth to my earlier post.
In the 1949 U.S. Open Harvie Ward carried the ball 245 yards on the 10th hole at Medinah, Nelson carried it 255.
The results of everyone's carries and rolls on the hole can be found here: http://turf.lib.msu.edu/1940s/1949/490815.pdf
They must have gotten weaker in the intervening 7 years.
-
Jim,
For what it's worth, that is with a helping wind of 5 to 15 MPH...
Seems very reasonable based on all these reports that the four guys hit driver, what I don't understand is why it's not possible for Hollins to have done so as well...
-
I'm with Patrick on this one. The best players in the world are pounding driver hole high in 1956, and I'm to believe that a woman 30 years prior (maybe even wandering around in a dress) carried a ball 220? Sounds like a tall tale to me.
None of the best players in the world were pounding driver to reach 220 yards. That's ridiculous! Those guys could reach 220 with a half swing. Pat's insistence on this supposed data from 1956 is pure fantasy.
Garland,
Are you calling Jeff Dawson a liar ?
He's quoting one of the participants and referencing two of them
What proof do you have that Frost, myself and Dawson are in error ?
Where did Jeff say they could not hit 220 with a half swing driver? Give the actual factual driving statistics others are giving you, how is it possible that what I wrote was wrong?
-
Pat,
RTJ Sr. based his changes at Oakland Hills for the '51 Open on this information: "Recent tests I made during Open Championships proved that the average carry of the entire field is about 240 yards. Better than ten players carry 250 yards and scarcely anyone in the field carries less than 230 yards, illustrating that features outside these limits are of no penal value."
Jim, Like the Tour stats, you don't know which holes he measured, temperature, humidity, elevation of the tee relative to the fairway, etc, etc.. The U.S. Open is held in Mid-June every year when temperatures are typically in the 70's and 80"s.
CPC on Jan 11, 1956 reached a high of about 62-65*
That seems to be several yards longer than the 220 or so needed at Cypress. ???
I sure wouldn't equate shots hit in Mid June at US Open sites to those hit at CPC at almost any time of year, especially 01-11-56.
But, Jeff Dawson has confirmed what the competitors hit, so why the ongoing questioning ?
Where are all the questions about Marion Hollins's alleged shots ?
Jim,
Would you equate weather and atmospheric conditions at Oakland hills in Mid June 1951 (80* 06-15-51) with the weather and atmospheric conditions at CPC on Jan 11, 1956 (62* 01-11-56) ?
-
I'm with Patrick on this one. The best players in the world are pounding driver hole high in 1956, and I'm to believe that a woman 30 years prior (maybe even wandering around in a dress) carried a ball 220? Sounds like a tall tale to me.
None of the best players in the world were pounding driver to reach 220 yards. That's ridiculous! Those guys could reach 220 with a half swing. Pat's insistence on this supposed data from 1956 is pure fantasy.
Garland,
Are you calling Jeff Dawson a liar ?
He's quoting one of the participants and referencing two of them
What proof do you have that Frost, myself and Dawson are in error ?
Where did Jeff say they could not hit 220 with a half swing driver? Give the actual factual driving statistics others are giving you, how is it possible that what I wrote was wrong?
I guess that 's why HOgan came up short, he used a half driver swing.
let's see, when I play that hole, do I want to err LONG of SHORT ?
Only a moron, would insist that they played short of the hole, employing a half swing.
You're desperate, wrong, and a joke.
Change your meds
-
Patrick:
Where do you get the historical weather data? I'd be curious to see what's available for purposes other than this thread.
-
Jeff: I volunteer my wife to transcribe your verbal account for input to the site. She is an executive assistant and typing falls into her comfort zone.
-
Patrick Mucci writes:
What proof do you have that Frost, myself and Dawson are in error ?
We know Frost makes stuff up. I have no idea if his account of clubs hit and distance from the hole came from a reliable source or from his imagination. Do you know? Hard to rely on someone for facts when it has been clearly demonstrated he makes up facts. What is fact, what is fiction? You and I have no idea. You and I have no idea if Frost is in error or not.
I did not see Dawson collaborating your (Frost's?) story. He said some of the 1956 participants hit driver, according to Mr. Ward.
I'd say you are in error. Your error is relying on a fiction author for real facts.
Cheers,
Dan King
I remember playing the match and how excited Ken [Venturi] and I were to be playing [Ben] Hogan and [Byron] Nelson. I know we played some fantastic golf that day, all of us, but I don't remember much else.
--Harvey Ward (on the 1956 match between amateurs Venturi and Ward against legends Hogan and Nelson at Cypress Point)
-
Patrick:
Where do you get the historical weather data? I'd be curious to see what's available for purposes other than this thread.
He's committed to memory the prevailing wind direction for every hour of every day of every year since 1902 at every golf course on the face of the Earth.
-
...
Only a moron, would insist that they played short of the hole, employing a half swing.
You're desperate, wrong, and a joke.
...
Of course I never insisted they played short of the hole, employing half a swing. That seems to be your suggestion.
People on this website tell me you are a gentleman. Is the name calling you consistently engage in an aspect of gentlemanly behavior that I somehow failed to learn?
I hope you realize that citing a nearby weather station for wind speed is not in the least bit valid. Wind can be a very localized event.
-
Pat,
I willing to believe the boys used driver that day, I'm also willing to believe that Holiins could make the carry.
-
Pat -
Do you think Hollins could have made the bare minimum carry of 185 yards in warm weather, with little or no sea spray rising up and clinging to the ball, with a helping wind? Yes or no.
The answer, of course, is yes. From there, folklore (a concept whose allure you have cheapened with this thread) takes over and the end result is Hollins ripping a driver from the tips to a back pin.
-
Played the 1980 Cal Am at Pebble/Cypress.
Weren't allowed practice rounds, so when I got to 16 tried to hit an easy driver (MacGregor w/keyhole insert btw)
Caught it a little thin, hit a couple feet short.
Went ahead an hit one harder, just off the back. It was cool and into the wind.
Next year, I hit a 3 iron in the center of the green on a cool windless day (60-65 degrees I would guess)
Played AT&T in a gale in 1990 and pummeled the dogwater out of a driver to hit the green (made 5 :-X)
-
Pat Burke writes:
pummeled the dogwater out of a driver
I love that. What is "pummeled the dogwater" from? I've never heard it before but I like it.
Cheers,
Dan King
I am not a cat man, but a dog man, and all felines can tell this at a glance — a sharp, vindictive glance.
--James Thurber
-
Ran hit a hickory driver to 16 green.....if he can do it.........
Here is a blurb I put up about Harvie last winter
http://www.dawsongolf.com/2010/01/winter-blueswhat-to-do.html (http://www.dawsongolf.com/2010/01/winter-blueswhat-to-do.html)
-
Patrick:
Where do you get the historical weather data? I'd be curious to see what's available for purposes other than this thread.
Carl,
It's on the internet.
City, date and info.
-
Pat,
Here's more info from Jones that adds some depth to my earlier post.
In the 1949 U.S. Open Harvie Ward carried the ball 245 yards on the 10th hole at Medinah, Nelson carried it 255.
The results of everyone's carries and rolls on the hole can be found here: http://turf.lib.msu.edu/1940s/1949/490815.pdf
They must have gotten weaker in the intervening 7 years.
Jim, I'm really surprised at you.
How can you ignore the fact that they had up to a 15 mph wind at their back ?
How can you ignore the fact that it was 91 degrees at Medinah in mid June ?
How can you ignore that they didn't count drives under 220 when calculating the average ?
C'mon, stop looking for excuses to dismiss the account from several sources and start looking to discount the myth that Marion Hollins hit three balls to the center of the green, something that Hogan and Venturi couldn't do
Jeff Dawson, a personal friend of Harvie Ward has stated that he had a conversation with KEN and HARVIE and that they used drivers
-
Jim,
For what it's worth, that is with a helping wind of 5 to 15 MPH...
Seems very reasonable based on all these reports that the four guys hit driver, what I don't understand is why it's not possible for Hollins to have done so as well...
Jim,
You've been hanging around TEPaul and his crowd too long so I'll explain it to you.
Four of the best golfers in the world hit driver on that hole in 1956.
But, we're to believe that 30 years earlier, a woman in 1926, apparently with no warm up, stepped onto a makeshift tee, teed up three balls and hit them to the dead center of where the green currently resides, 222 yards away..
Yet, there's no record or document confirming this, just heresay.
Yet non-Philly morons are defending the alleged incident as if they witnessed it ;D
Have you ever played the hole
-
Played the 1980 Cal Am at Pebble/Cypress.
Weren't allowed practice rounds, so when I got to 16 tried to hit an easy driver (MacGregor w/keyhole insert btw)
Caught it a little thin, hit a couple feet short.
Went ahead an hit one harder, just off the back. It was cool and into the wind.
Next year, I hit a 3 iron in the center of the green on a cool windless day (60-65 degrees I would guess)
Played AT&T in a gale in 1990 and pummeled the dogwater out of a driver to hit the green (made 5 :-X)
It should be noted that Pat Burke comes from a family of TERRIFIC golfers, including himself, and that he wasn't playing in the 1990 AT&T as an amateur, but, a PGA Tour Professional.
It should also be noted that his Tour Stats indicate that his average drive was 285.8 yards.
Yet, he hit driver on thre of his four plays at # 16.
Is the logic hitting you yet ?
Perhaps Marion Hollins was a longer and better player than Pat and his PGA Tour mates
-
...
Only a moron, would insist that they played short of the hole, employing a half swing.
You're desperate, wrong, and a joke.
...
Of course I never insisted they played short of the hole, employing half a swing. That seems to be your suggestion.
People on this website tell me you are a gentleman. Is the name calling you consistently engage in an aspect of gentlemanly behavior that I somehow failed to learn?
First, I didn't call you a moron, I stated that ONLY a moron would insist that they play the hole short, employing a half swing, especially when short is death, long, recoverable.
Secondly, You were the wiseguy that started with the snide remarks on this thread and others.
If you want to be treated like a gentleman, behave like a gentleman.
I hope you realize that citing a nearby weather station for wind speed is not in the least bit valid. Wind can be a very localized event.
Please stop with the nonsense.
You have nearby weather stations, none of which are sited on the 16th tee.
But, they are a reliable indication of conditions that day.
Stop being absurd
-
Patrick:
Where do you get the historical weather data? I'd be curious to see what's available for purposes other than this thread.
He's committed to memory the prevailing wind direction for every hour of every day of every year since 1902 at every golf course on the face of the Earth.
JMEvensky,
Correction.
Only the continental U.S. ;D
-
Pat FWIW, The exact carry distance is 197 yards.
You still have not dis-proven the story. And if it is a story, you'll never be able to.
-
Patrick Mucci writes:
What proof do you have that Frost, myself and Dawson are in error ?
We know Frost makes stuff up.
Dan, could you and others who have maintained that Frost's writings in "The Match" are fiction Idendify exacly what, SPECIFICALLY did he make up on his account of the match regarding the 16th hole ?
I have no idea if his account of clubs hit and distance from the hole came from a reliable source or from his imagination. Do you know?
Frost says that he spoke to Venturi and Nelson, certainly they must be considered reliable sources
Hard to rely on someone for facts when it has been clearly demonstrated he makes up facts. What is fact, what is fiction? You and I have no idea. You and I have no idea if Frost is in error or not.
That's NOT true.
Jeff Dawson spoke directly to Venturi and Ward who confirmed that they hit driver
I spoke to Venturi long ago and he indicated that he hit driver
I did not see Dawson collaborating your (Frost's?) story. He said some of the 1956 participants hit driver, according to Mr. Ward.
that's also NOT true. He spoke to BOTH Venturi and Ward and both said that they hit driver and Ward said that normally he wouldn't hit driver, but did that day because HOgan hit driver
I'd say you are in error. Your error is relying on a fiction author for real facts.
Quite the contrary, we have three independent sources, all corraborating each other.
YOU and others have NOTHING in the way of facts that refute those three accounts.
Yet, you're willing to accept the Marion Hollins myth when NOONE can verify it.
In fact, we can't find anyone who witnessed and recorded the alleged event
-
Pat FWIW, The exact carry distance is 197 yards.
You still have not dis-proven the story. And if it is a story, you'll never be able to.
Adam,
That depends upon your preference for either myths or logic
Can you provide any documentation by a witness certifying Marion Hollins's alleged fete ?
-
No, I can't, can you provide any witnesses that saw it never happen?
Logic, that's funny.
-
No, I can't, can you provide any witnesses that saw it never happen?
Adam,
On one hand, we have an event witnessed by hundreds of people.
In addition, we have confirmation from three (3) of the participants, Nelson, Venturi and Ward.
On the other you don't have one single shred of concrete, confirmed evidence.
Yet, you and others want to reject a factual account in favor of a mythical account.
You're right, where's the logic ? ;D
Logic, that's funny.
Agreed
-
Here's another version of the story from the internet - this time it has her hitting the shot with her brassie rather than a driver. And 230 yards not 220. I suspect there may have been some embellishments over the years..........
In 1928, she hired MacKenzie to sculpt a spur of land she owned near Pebble Beach. MacKenzie's plans for Cypress Point left out the now-famous 16th hole. Dr. Mac was dying to create the killer par-3 that now adorns golf calendars around the world, but he thought that the tee shot, which called for a long, brutal carry over the roiling Pacific, would be too hard. It would have to be a par-4. The owner disagreed. Miss Hollins wanted MacKenzie to build the hole he had imagined. Walking the seaside bluffs one day, she dropped a ball. She swung her brassie — a hickory-shafted 2-wood — and smacked the ball 230 yards over the sea to the current site of the green. There's no record of what she said as the first tee shot ever struck at Cypress's 16th hung in the air. (Maybe, "Hunt, you rubber-coated dog!") What we know is that MacKenzie was convinced. He built a tee box on the spot. "(E)xcept for minor details of construction, I was in no way responsible for the hole," he wrote. "It was largely due to the vision of Miss Marion Hollins."
Are there any other period accounts of this story other than Mackenzie's in Spirit of St Andrews? Mackenzie was a witness to it and I can't see why he would embellish the truth, doesn't seem like he gains out of making such a thing up. Having researched and read a lot about Mackenzie I am inclined to take his word on this one.
-
Neil,
That account differs from the account that MacKenzie wrote about in his book, "The Spirit of St Andrews"
On page 135 he cites the incident, but, it wasn't MacKenzie who witnessed it, it was Raynor.
Now, your account would have us believe that she dropped a ball on a rugged piece of unprepared land and routinely hit a Brassie (2-wood) 220+ over the chasm to the current location of the green.
It's shear nonsense, but, the stories keep getting better
-
Pat
yes the account differs, which was kind of my point that the story has been embellished in different re-tellings. And it's not my account but just one I plucked at random off the internet.
Same as the one you quoted at the start with three balls. Mackenzie's account talks of only one ball, and doesn't mention the club.
And yes, I was in error with my recollection of the account, Mackenzie did not witness it firsthand as Hollins clearly did it when she was going round the property with Raynor. No doubt it was Hollins who relayed the story to Mackenzie. Do you think either Mackenzie or Hollins were gilding the lily? And if so why? Seems out of character for Hollins to make something like this up, and as it does not build up Mac in any way why would he tell an untruth? Hollins was well and truly alive at the time he wrote the book so she could have easily disproved it if the book had been published at the time it was written.
-
Patrick, if the wind on the 16th was only 2 mph, then how could the group, standing on the 17th tee, see the flag "waving in the breeze" on the 17th green? Were the flags at CPC made of some lightweight material that made them so sensitive to puffs of wind approximating 2 mph?
-
Neil,
Individual circumstances and the chain of events as recounted by the parties don't seem logical to me.
My guess is that Raynor and Hollins engaged in a discussion regarding the 16th hole and whether it should be a par 4 or par 3.
As a result of those discussions I think they ventured out to the site and Hollins indicated that it would make a good par 3 from a tee or tees more benign than the current one located 222 from the current green and that Hollins teed up several balls and played to the site of the current green from a position far to the left of the current back tee.
I think Raynor, seeing that a par 3 could be played from that location/s, incorporated a par 3 into his plans, which I would love to see.
I think MacKenzie, was aware of Raynor's routing and made the hole a par 3 in his design/plan/routing
Dropping a ball onto ground ill prepared for golf and then striking that ball 220 yards across that chasm, with heavy ocean air, with a 2-wood, is beyond believable, except for the cretins who frequent this site. ;D
From there, the story took on proportions commensurate with the "WOW" factor associated with the area
-
Patrick Mucci writes:
Dan, could you and others who have maintained that Frost's writings in "The Match" are fiction Idendify exacly what, SPECIFICALLY did he make up on his account of the match regarding the 16th hole ?
No I can't. I've never read the book. I did read about half way through his earlier book. I sent him a list of a couple things that I had never read before just asking him where he got his sources. His only response was that the errors would be fixed in later editions. He didn't reference any material and it was obvious he had made at least some of the stuff up. He is an author that will gladly trade historical facts for a better story and therefore is a fiction writer.
It is entirely possible he is spot on about the Hogan/Nelson/Ward/Venturi match. It is also possible it is 100 percent BS. It isn't something I would rely on.
Frost says that he spoke to Venturi and Nelson, certainly they must be considered reliable sources
Are you sure what he wrote is what they told him? What if what they told him didn't help the story? Frost has shown he has no problem changing the story to fit his narrative.
Jeff Dawson spoke directly to Venturi and Ward who confirmed that they hit driver
Did they happen to tell you or Dawson how close they were to the hole?
YOU and others have NOTHING in the way of facts that refute those three accounts.
Again, it is possible Frost's account of the Match is based on truth. But it is hard to say if it is or isn't. The fact all four might have hit driver does very little to support Frost's account.
Yet, you're willing to accept the Marion Hollins myth when NOONE can verify it.
In fact, we can't find anyone who witnessed and recorded the alleged event
I have no way of knowing if Hollins story is true or not. I just object to you using a possible fictional account to disprove something that happened 30 years earlier.
There is a story about Christy O'Conner (Himself) playing in an Irish pro-am. After he and the Am hit to a par-3 the Am asked Christy what club he used. Christy responded it was an 8-iron. The Am made a big deal about how he reached the green with a 9-iron. Christy then went and hit the green with every club in the bag.
This story might also be mythical. But it does show that there are many distances pros can hit their clubs (something I find it hard to believe you didn't already know.) For whatever reason Hogan/Nelson/Venturi/Ward all might have chosen driver. We don't know why. There can be a variety of reasons a pro will take extra club. All we know is hitting a drive in 1956 with a 1.68 ball -- from a teeing area to a hole-size target -- has no relationship to hitting a drive in 1926 with the 1.62 ball -- from some unknown spot to just getting across the chasm. You've made a valiant effort trying to create a relationship. Don't be hard on yourself for failing -- it can't be done.
Cheers,
Dan King
The World Cup was founded to generate international goodwill through golf. Friendship and conviviality are therefore supposed to be essential ingredients of the tournament and Christy O'Conner had a powerful talent for friendship and conviviality. Indeed many good judges are convinced that O'Conner's genius for hitting a golf ball would have won him several Open Championships if only nature had endowed him less liberally with the conviviality.
--Peter Dobereiner
-
Dan,
Stolen from Dave Hill and his book "TEED OFF"
Love that book! :D
-
Dan -- surely Mark Frost was wrong and living in fantasy land like the unmedicated lunatics here on GCA when he recounted the Hollins tale on pgs 173-174, but he was back to being 100% factual (right down to Hogan's nod of satisfaction after hitting his drive on #16 and Ward's cockeyed grin and roll of the eyes after his shot that landed 5 ft from the hole) on pgs 174-176.
As for me, I have my doubts as to whether this dainty petite woman who never married (not that there's anything wrong with that), could have managed to hit the ball a man-like 200+ yds. Absolutely not possible...
(http://www.pasatiempo.com/web/images/MarionHollins_500x367.jpg)
-
I love Dave Hill's Teed Off. I'm not a big fan of autobiographies but Hill gets the tone perfectly.
Another good autobiography you would probably enjoy is Gardner Dickinson's Let 'Er Rip. Have you read it?
Cheers,
Dan King
My game is so bad I gotta hire three caddies -- one to talk the left rough, one for the right rough, and one down the middle. And the one down the middle doesn't have much to do.
--Dave Hill
-
Ah but Kevin - these ones show not such a bad shoulder turn for a dainty petite woman who never married
(http://i56.tinypic.com/1672g0.jpg)
(http://i54.tinypic.com/2ufav51.jpg)
I reckon she didnt only make the carry -- she was probably pin high : )
Cheers, Lyne
-
(http://i56.tinypic.com/1672g0.jpg)
That is one big shoulder turn and one BIG MAMMA....
Look at the size of those tree trunks....I knock it around 250-260 and one of her legs is bigger than my body.
She could easy crack it 260-300 even in 1926.
-
These pics of Hollins' swing are compelling enough to me to suggest she could get it out there to hit it on the green at 16. For those who are still skeptical, what explanation would you give for Raynor agreeing to build a 230 yd par 3 in 1928?
-
I know Patrick has been a skeptic for a long time about Hollins and the 16th. But that photo convinces me that it was possible.
-
Pat,
After seeing that photo of Marion at the top of her swing, just how far do you think she could hit the ball in her day? Would you play her for money; how many strokes would you beg for?
-
Thanks Jeff.....I just read the blurb....just wetted the whistle like the 1st sip of Jamison's over cracked ice.....
-
Please stop with the nonsense.
You have nearby weather stations, none of which are sited on the 16th tee.
But, they are a reliable indication of conditions that day.
Stop being absurd
It is absurd to think any weather station would give an accurate reading of the conditions if it were not actually on site. You could set a weather station within easy sight of my home and it would often read a 30mph difference between the actual wind at my home.
-
Played the 1980 Cal Am at Pebble/Cypress.
Weren't allowed practice rounds, so when I got to 16 tried to hit an easy driver (MacGregor w/keyhole insert btw)
Caught it a little thin, hit a couple feet short.
Went ahead an hit one harder, just off the back. It was cool and into the wind.
Next year, I hit a 3 iron in the center of the green on a cool windless day (60-65 degrees I would guess)
Played AT&T in a gale in 1990 and pummeled the dogwater out of a driver to hit the green (made 5 :-X)
It should be noted that Pat Burke comes from a family of TERRIFIC golfers, including himself, and that he wasn't playing in the 1990 AT&T as an amateur, but, a PGA Tour Professional.
It should also be noted that his Tour Stats indicate that his average drive was 285.8 yards.
Yet, he hit driver on thre of his four plays at # 16.
Is the logic hitting you yet ?
Perhaps Marion Hollins was a longer and better player than Pat and his PGA Tour mates
You claim an essentially windless day. Pat hit 3 iron on the comparable day. Is the logic hitting you yet?
He hit the green with driver in a gale. Is the logic hitting you yet?
He was short on a mishit driver into the wind. Is the logic hitting you yet?
He was over the green with with driver into the wind. Is the logic hitting you yet?
Pat,
You are a great story teller, but my advice to you is to not make a claim to being a logician.
-
You claim an essentially windless day. Pat hit 3 iron on the comparable day. Is the logic hitting you yet?
He hit the green with driver in a gale. Is the logic hitting you yet?
He was short on a mishit driver into the wind. Is the logic hitting you yet?
He was over the green with with driver into the wind. Is the logic hitting you yet?
Pat,
You are a great story teller, but my advice to you is to not make a claim to being a logician.
Actually, many (not all) points Pat made in this thread are good. Based on Jim Kennedy's post #7, it sounds like Marion hit driver around 220 or 230 yards. That includes roll. So IF she had to carry 220...IF the wind did not help her (and may even have been in her face)...considering the typically heavy air near the seaside...and seeing that top men golfers playing better equipment 40 years later hit driver, as confirmed by one of them (Ward)...raises doubt about the story.
Pat's problem is that Marion may not have needed to cary 220 yards. 195 or so may have done the trick, depending on exactly where she hit from. He does not know the wind or other weather conditions. (BTW, Garland, your post before that points up one of the problems with AGWT). And even if she did need to carry 220, maybe she flushed it and pulled it off anyway. She certainly was not far from that distance, in any case.
To me it's a hung jury. In that photo of her at Pasa, she looks like she is going to murder the ball.
-
Patrick,
I am trying to understand the point of this thread . . .
Setting aside for a moment the Hollin's legend and the account from "The Match," is your main point that you don't think that Marion Hollins could have driven the green from the current tee?
-
Thats a solid looking swing from those two pictures. From the looks of it, I can't imagine her having a problem reaching the green.
Mark
-
You claim an essentially windless day. Pat hit 3 iron on the comparable day. Is the logic hitting you yet?
At the time, Pat was on the PGA Tour. Now you're going to compare the ball, equipment and a female golfer in 1926 with the ball, equipment and a PGA Tour Pro who's driving distance averaged 286 yards. Do you see the idiocy of your logic yet ?
He hit the green with driver in a gale. Is the logic hitting you yet?
He also hit several drivers without a wind. Do you seel the idiocy of your logic yet ?
He was short on a mishit driver into the wind. Is the logic hitting you yet?
Let's see, a PGA Tour Professional mishits his drive, but you want us to believe that a 34 year old female amateur pured three tee shots 220 yards to the center of the green. Do you see the idiocy of your logic yet
He was over the green with with driver into the wind. Is the logic hitting you yet?
He was a PGA TOUR Professional at the time who averaged 286 yards on his drives, and he just hit it over the green on his SECOND shot,
It was 74 years after the Hollins myth in 1926
Do you think she would have been a regular on the PGA Tour in 1980 ?
Do you see the idiocy of your logic yet.
Pat,
You are a great story teller, but my advice to you is to not make a claim to being a logician.
Let's start with a simple question.
Have you ever played the hole ?
I have, and I've used driver, and if I didn't pure it, I wouldn't have made the carry.
I did have a hole in one on the 10th hole at Sherwood, from the back tee which I think is about 350 yards.
Now I'm sure that you'll insist that Marion Hollins was much longer than me, but, that would be delusional on your part..
With 19 holes in one, I think you could make the case that I was a decent iron player as well.
But, I'm sure you'll tell me that Marion Hollins was a much better ball striker than me, even with balls and equipment circa 1926
If Venturi, Hogan, Ward and Nelson hit driver, do you think that she played a game equal to theirs ?
And do you think she played that equivalent game with balls and equipment from 1926 ?
Your logic is so flawed it's beyond absurd
And, you can't produce one shred of evidence confirming that she actually made those shots from 220 yards
-
In an opening-day event for the newly minted Casa Del Ray Links in Santa Cruz, Ca., two big hitters won their respective long-driver competitions:
".....Vincent Whitney won the long driving contest with a ball that was near the 275-yard mark, and soft ground at that, and no wind..... Miss Warner winning the long driving contest with a ball past the 200-yard post."
CDR opened in 1912.
-
Thats a solid looking swing from those two pictures. From the looks of it, I can't imagine her having a problem reaching the green.
Mark
Mark,
I have a friend who has a spectacular swing, absolutely classic.
To see it, you'd think he'd eat up every course and opponent.
There's only one problem.
He's a powder puff and can't hit the ball very far.
Now I realize that MH hit the ball well, but, now you and those other morons ;D are going to tell me that you can gleen how far someone hit a particular shot by just looking at totally different photos of her swing, from the top of their swing and another photo at the finish ?
You could make a fortune in the teaching department.
Just have golfers send you still photos of the top of their swing and another photo from a different swing at the finish and you can analyze how far they hit the ball.
YIKES
How many times have we watched TV and seen what looked like a perfect swing, start to finish, only to see the ball go short in a pond or OB.
Please stop looking for desperate excuses and look at the physics, measurements and facts.
Thanks
-
I wonder if Seinfeld got the inspiration for the "man hands" episode from Miss Hollins. ;)
Check out those paws on Marion in 1920:
(http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/MarionHollins/Oct14_1920_EPL.jpg)
-
Let's now work on your reading comprehension.
You claim an essentially windless day. Pat hit 3 iron on the comparable day. Is the logic hitting you yet?
At the time, Pat was on the PGA Tour. Now you're going to compare the ball, equipment and a female golfer in 1926 with the ball, equipment and a PGA Tour Pro who's driving distance averaged 286 yards. Do you see the idiocy of your logic yet ?
Your above statement is false due to not comprehending what you read.
He hit the green with driver in a gale. Is the logic hitting you yet?
He also hit several drivers without a wind. Do you seel the idiocy of your logic yet ?
What post did you read that in?
He was short on a mishit driver into the wind. Is the logic hitting you yet?
Let's see, a PGA Tour Professional mishits his drive, but you want us to believe that a 34 year old female amateur pured three tee shots 220 yards to the center of the green. Do you see the idiocy of your logic yet
Your above statement is false due to not comprehending what you read.
He was over the green with with driver into the wind. Is the logic hitting you yet?
He was a PGA TOUR Professional at the time who averaged 286 yards on his drives, and he just hit it over the green on his SECOND shot,
It was 74 years after the Hollins myth in 1926
Your above statement is false due to not comprehending what you read.
Do you think she would have been a regular on the PGA Tour in 1980 ?
Do you see the idiocy of your logic yet.
Pat,
You are a great story teller, but my advice to you is to not make a claim to being a logician.
Let's start with a simple question.
Have you ever played the hole ?
I have, and I've used driver, and if I didn't pure it, I wouldn't have made the carry.
I did have a hole in one on the 10th hole at Sherwood, from the back tee which I think is about 350 yards.
Now I'm sure that you'll insist that Marion Hollins was much longer than me, but, that would be delusional on your part..
With 19 holes in one, I think you could make the case that I was a decent iron player as well.
But, I'm sure you'll tell me that Marion Hollins was a much better ball striker than me, even with balls and equipment circa 1926
If Venturi, Hogan, Ward and Nelson hit driver, do you think that she played a game equal to theirs ?
And do you think she played that equivalent game with balls and equipment from 1926 ?
Your logic is so flawed it's beyond absurd
And, you can't produce one shred of evidence confirming that she actually made those shots from 220 yards
-
Eeesh. Sorry for commenting on the thread.
Mark
-
Ms. Cecil Leitch could pound it. From 1921:
In her early teens when we first met her she already had a country wide reputation for exceptional hitting from the tee. A sample of driving power can best be noted when the shot is against the wind. To drive consistently for thirty-six holes and average in cross winds and grievous adverse currents one hundred and eighty-five yards has been done many a time by the British champion, and, to our way of thinking, can be done by no other woman golfer. And with the wind, or on a still day, there are yearly records going back to 1911 with drives of 250 yards. In fact these no longer comment when made by Miss Leitch. Her iron shots are of prodigious length compared with the average woman golfer. She gets distance becauses he can safely rely upon the application of power, showing plainly in her sturdy forearms. If the two champions meet in action—and every golfer in the world would "seed" the draw to bring this about, if such were possible,—Miss Stirling will be constantly out driven by about fifteen to twenty yards.
-
The question is, who started the myth and why?
Pat -
The purpose of this bit of folklore should be fairly obvious. It exists to answer the questions that everyone who stood on that tee in the early days must have asked - "Why did they put this hole here? How am I ever going to make this carry?"
Asking "who started" this story is nonsensical - folklore is collective by definition.
-
An interesting match between Bobby Jones and Glenna Collett, showing Collett to be a very long driver of the ball.
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/AmericanGolfer/1929/ag325h.pdf
an excerpt:
The fourteenth is four hundred and sixty-five yards with a downhill drive; a par 5 on the regular card, and a par 4 in tournament scoring, due to the falling terrain, though the second shot goes to a higher level and is a very tough problem. Here Bobby was only ten yards ahead on the drive and was well on the green with his second, Glenna getting a big swing on her spoon shot and finishing hole-high but well off to the left, whence she played a pretty pitch over a dangerous bunker and halved in 5 when Bobby again treated himself to three putts.
-
Pat,
We don't want the truth....we cannot handle the truth!
Don't spoil such a good story.... 8)
-
Patrick_Mucci writes:
but you want us to believe that a 34 year old female amateur pured three tee shots 220 yards to the center of the green.
There was no green. There was no tee. We have no idea from where to where she hit. The story is she cleared the chasm to somewhere on the other side.
Do you understand it is easier to hit a long drive with no target than with a target?
If Venturi, Hogan, Ward and Nelson hit driver, do you think that she played a game equal to theirs ?
Come on Pat, now you are grasping at straws. Does any single shot or combination of shots make you the equal of another golfer who hit similar shots?
And do you think she played that equivalent game with balls and equipment from 1926 ?
You mean the balls Hogan/Nelson/Venturi and Ward would have been breaking USGA rules had they used them in 1956?
I didn't see you answer this question: Which ball would you choose if faced with a shot to cross a chasm -- with no concern for a target?
Cheers,
Dan King
It's like replacing Bo Derek with Roseanne Barr.
--Johnny Miller (on Poppy Hills replacing Cypress Point as part of the home for the AT&T Pro-Am)
-
I was just on Twitter and Marion Hollins has tweeted that she did hit the infamous 16th green at CPC back in 1926 with a driver. She also said that she has Bieber Fever, whatever that means. I guess the debate is over gentlemen.
-
Patrick_Mucci writes:
but you want us to believe that a 34 year old female amateur pured three tee shots 220 yards to the center of the green.
There was no green. There was no tee. We have no idea from where to where she hit. The story is she cleared the chasm to somewhere on the other side.
That's NOT true.
The myth states that she hit those three balls to the middle of where the current green sits.
Do you understand it is easier to hit a long drive with no target than with a target?
She obviously had a target in mind, and drilled three balls right in the middle of it.
If Venturi, Hogan, Ward and Nelson hit driver, do you think that she played a game equal to theirs ?
Come on Pat, now you are grasping at straws. Does any single shot or combination of shots make you the equal of another golfer who hit similar shots?
Venturi, Hogan, Nelson and Ward couldn't put all four balls on the green, yet Marion managed to hit all three of her balls to the middle of the green
And do you think she played that equivalent game with balls and equipment from 1926 ?
You mean the balls Hogan/Nelson/Venturi and Ward would have been breaking USGA rules had they used them in 1956?
Right, along with those inferior clubs that HOGAN, NELSON, VENTURI and WARD were playing
Hollins's clubs had to be far superior despite being vintage 1926 versus state of the art 1956
Did Hollins have her own club and ball company like Hogan ?
Or her own testing machine, the IRON HOLLINS at USGA headquarters.
Please, you're a smart guy, stop trying to dismantle the facts surrounding 01-11-56 and start questioning the alleged events of 1926
I didn't see you answer this question: Which ball would you choose if faced with a shot to cross a chasm -- with no concern for a target?
I'll take the I&B from 1956 versus the I&B from 1926 EVERY time.
Don't forget she didn't throw the ball she used clubs
Cheers
-
Don't really know what the big deal is. I drove the thing even with my severely sphincter-tightened backswing. I'd bet Marion could thrash me at Golf, Arm-wrestling, Crochet and Macrame.
FBD.
-
Pat,
What "myth" are you trying to disprove? Can you site a written source of the "myth" you are trying to disprove?
Others have cited and quoted the fact they believe, i.e., "Miss Hollins said she did not think it was an impossible carry. She then teed up a ball and drove it to the middle of the site for the suggested green." from MacKenzie's book.
Are you trying to disprove that statement also?
-
Patrick_Mucci writes:
The myth states that she hit those three balls to the middle of where the current green sits.
But didn't sit at the time.
Please, you're a smart guy, stop trying to dismantle the facts surrounding 01-11-56
I only responded to this post because it bugs me to see people using Frost's books as historical data. He can not be trusted.
start questioning the alleged events of 1926
I haven't seen any reason to question the events of 1926. You have said because four very good golfers hit the green in 1956 that means a very good golfer in 1926 could not have possibly done it. I don't buy that. You are taking two very dissimilar events and saying the one disproves the other without drawing any connection between the two events.
Similarities:
All of the golfers hit over the same chasm.
All of the golfers hit a driving wood.
Dissimilarities:
30 years.
No tee or green for the earlier shot.
1.62 v. 1.68 ball.
30 year improvement in driving woods.
Woman v. Man
Competition v. hitting balls.
Unknown:
Weather condition
Teeing area in 1926
Flight path.
You seem to believe that Raynor/MacKenzie built a par-3 hole in the 1920s that nobody in that era could reach. Or is it your position that the Cypress men membership could reach it but not a woman even if she was one of the longest women golfers of her era?
Why would Raynor/Mackenzie build a golf hole that nobody could reach for 30 years?
Cheers,
Dan King
That "I don't give a darn" attitude is probably why I've shot so many good final rounds over the years when I started the day a few shots behind with nothing to lose. . . and maybe that's why I've shot so many bad last rounds when I was ahead and knew I couldn't afford a mistake.
--Jack Nicklaus
-
Pat,
What "myth" are you trying to disprove? Can you site a written source of the "myth" you are trying to disprove?
Sure.
There's NO documented evidence of the alleged fete
Not one witness who recorded the event.
Not one citation by Hollins or Raynor.
I'd say that qualifies the alleged fete as a myth.
Others have cited and quoted the fact they believe, i.e., "Miss Hollins said she did not think it was an impossible carry. She then teed up a ball and drove it to the middle of the site for the suggested green." from MacKenzie's book.
That's nothing more than unsubstantiated third party hearsay recorded six to eight years subsequent to the alleged event.
Are you trying to disprove that statement also?
No, the statement is on page 135. ,it's the veracity of the statement that's in question.
Do you have a single shred of concrete evidence from witnesses to the event, that verify the event ? Yes or NO ?"
There were hundreds of witnesses to the events of 01-11-56, but NOT ONE SINGLE witness to the alleged event in 1926.
Yet, you continue to champion an alleged event that has NO basis in documented fact.
Why is that ?
Let me guess, you just want to win just one argument with me.
Going 0 for 100 has warped your ability to reason like a prudent man. ;D
HAVE YOU PLAYED THE 16TH HOLE AT CPC ? Yes or NO ?
-
Pat,
We don't want the truth....we cannot handle the truth!
Don't spoil such a good story.... 8)
Brian,
You're right and I should know better.
What I'm surprised by is how some, especially those who have never played the hole, are adamantly clinging to the authenticity of an undocumented event, especially in light of the nature of the equipment in 1926 and the talent of the four participants on 01-11-56, along with the experiences of Pat Burke, Jeff Dawson, myself and others
-
Patrick_Mucci writes:
The myth states that she hit those three balls to the middle of where the current green sits.
But didn't sit at the time.
It did in her mind, according to the myth
Please, you're a smart guy, stop trying to dismantle the facts surrounding 01-11-56
I only responded to this post because it bugs me to see people using Frost's books as historical data. He can not be trusted.
I can't speak to whether he can be trusted or not, but, Jeff Dawson independently confirmed the events of 01-11-56 with Venturi and Ward and I had a similar conversation with Venturi. Hence, there's not a doubt in my mind with respect to their club selection that day.
start questioning the alleged events of 1926
I haven't seen any reason to question the events of 1926. You have said because four very good golfers hit the green in 1956 that means a very good golfer in 1926 could not have possibly done it.
That's not what I said.
I said that four of the greatest golfers in the WORLD had to use drivers in 1956, but, we're to believe that a female amateur golfer in 1926, spontaneously plopped down three balls and hit them dead center 220 yards away.
I don't buy that. You are taking two very dissimilar events and saying the one disproves the other without drawing any connection between the two events.
Dan, c'mon.
Four WORLD class PGA Tour Golfers in 1956 with state of the art equipment and balls versus an amateur woman golfer in 1926 with equipment from 1926
Similarities:
All of the golfers hit over the same chasm.
All of the golfers hit a driving wood.
Well, that's in question because we have another account that says she hit a brassie (2-wood)
Dissimilarities:
30 years.
No tee or green for the earlier shot.
1.62 v. 1.68 ball.
30 year improvement in driving woods.
Woman v. Man
Competition v. hitting balls.
Unknown:
Weather condition
Teeing area in 1926
Flight path.
You seem to believe that Raynor/MacKenzie built a par-3 hole in the 1920s that nobody in that era could reach.
That's your conclusion, not mine
Or is it your position that the Cypress men membership could reach it but not a woman even if she was one of the longest women golfers of her era?
That's not my position
Why would Raynor/Mackenzie build a golf hole that nobody could reach for 30 years?
Who said nobody could reach it ?
-
Patrick_Mucci writes:
Dan, c'mon.
Four WORLD class PGA Tour Golfers in 1956 with state of the art equipment and balls versus an amateur woman golfer in 1926 with equipment from 1926
Nelson was retired, Hogan was semi-retired and Venturi and Ward were not PGA Tour golfers. In this match there was one World class PGA Tour golfer past his prime.
I guess I lost track of your argument. Isn't it your position that Hollins could not have hit the shots that crossed the chasm and reached the middle of what would eventually be the green because she lacked the swing and equipment to do it?
Wouldn't have the Cypress membership be using swings either similar or not as good and equipment either similar or not as good as Hollins?
Do you believe there were Cypress members that could have reached the green when the course opened?
If it had been Hagen instead of Hollins would you be questioning the story? Are you having trouble believing the story because it was a woman that did it?
Cheers,
Dan King
I just hitch up my girdle and let 'er fly.
--Babe Didrickson Zaharias (explaning her long tee shots)
-
Pat
Where did you get the part that she hit three balls? Is that from Frost? According to Mackenzie, writing in the early 1930s, she hit one ball.
Who do you believe?
-
Either way it is a pity she pulled it off because it would have been an even better hole as a drivable par four.
-
Patrick_Mucci writes:
Dan, c'mon.
Four WORLD class PGA Tour Golfers in 1956 with state of the art equipment and balls versus an amateur woman golfer in 1926 with equipment from 1926
Nelson was retired, Hogan was semi-retired and Venturi and Ward were not PGA Tour golfers. In this match there was one World class PGA Tour golfer past his prime.
Nelson stopped playing the PGA Tour because he had done it all, he had won over and over and over again.
He didn't stop playing golf.
Hogan wasn't semi-retired.
Nine years later, at age 53, he tied for 15th at the PGA Championship
Venturi and Ward were alreeady world class golfers
I guess I lost track of your argument. Isn't it your position that Hollins could not have hit the shots that crossed the chasm and reached the middle of what would eventually be the green because she lacked the swing and equipment to do it?
The distance, equipment and location are against her in 1926.
Has ANYONE claimed witness to the event ? Anyone ?
Wouldn't have the Cypress membership be using swings either similar or not as good and equipment either similar or not as good as Hollins?
They'd be playing the more benign tees, not the heroic tees.
Do you believe there were Cypress members that could have reached the green when the course opened?
I don't know who the members were, but, generally, NO, I don't think the membership could reach the green in one shot from that tee.
If it had been Hagen instead of Hollins would you be questioning the story?
In 1926, YES
Are you having trouble believing the story because it was a woman that did it?
I'm having trouble because NO ONE witnessed it.
It's a heroic carry, it's oceanside air, it was I&B circa 1926 and it was a woman amateur
-
Where did you get the part that she hit three balls?
Is that from Frost?
According to Mackenzie, writing in the early 1930s, she hit one ball.
Who do you believe?
I don't believe any of it.
Here's another version.
In 1928, she hired MacKenzie to sculpt a spur of land she owned near Pebble Beach. MacKenzie's plans for Cypress Point left out the now-famous 16th hole. Dr. Mac was dying to create the killer par-3 that now adorns golf calendars around the world, but he thought that the tee shot, which called for a long, brutal carry over the roiling Pacific, would be too hard. It would have to be a par-4. The owner disagreed. Miss Hollins wanted MacKenzie to build the hole he had imagined. Walking the seaside bluffs one day, she dropped a ball. She swung her brassie — a hickory-shafted 2-wood — and smacked the ball 230 yards over the sea to the current site of the green. There's no record of what she said as the first tee shot ever struck at Cypress's 16th hung in the air.
-
Pat
But where did the account of her hitting three balls come from? I know you don't believe any of it but you must have read the thing about three balls somewhere as this differs from Mac's account.
Mike, wonder if Mackenzie was left alone by Hollins whether he would have laid it out as that short par 4 you describe?
-
Neil, Dan, et., al.,
What's amazing is that there's NO recorded description of the 1926 event by ANY witness.
Yet, you believe the myth without a shred of supporting evidence from ANY eyewitness.
You continue to state that Frost made everything up, yet you can't produce a witness or the author who recorded the alleged shot by Hollins in 1926. Nor can you identify what you allege Frost made up concerning the golf on 01-11-56.
How can you cling to an unauthenticated story, one without so much as one eyewitness, while attempting to dismiss accounts by the participants ?
If that's the way you conduct your research and that's what you base your conclusions on, your work would be classified somewhere between academically unsound to intellectually dishonest to fraudulent.
Why the blind attempts to perpetuate the myth ?
If you can't prove the alleged story, if you don't have so much as one eyewitness to the event, how can you adamantly defend and declare it's authenticity ?
-
Dan, you are arguing with a Green Wall.
Patrick cites a 1.8 knot wind for the day, from a weather station 6 miles away as evidence of the fact that wind wasn't a factor on "drives" by the four players in The Match (and ignores the fact that the flag on #17 was waving in the breeze). 'A' denotes the weather station that provided the wind figure for the day.
(http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a168/carrera993/Picture3-2.png)
Patrick ignores the fact that The Match took place the second week of January, and as you and I both know living in Northern California and having spent as much time over the last several decades on the Monterey Peninsula as Patrick has spent either on GCA or at NLGA, the temperature is not exactly tropical at that time of the year. In fact, citing the same more-inland weather station that Patrick used, the low temperature for that day in January was 44 degrees and the average was a balmy 53 degrees. Not exactly temperatures that would produce maximum distances for the four players in The Match. Nelson's "drive" cut through "mist" on #16...again not exactly conditions ideal for distance.
Patrick also says that there were "thousands of witnesses" to the shots on #16. Did George Coleman erect grandstands or something? Did Greyhound run shuttles for the spectators that found out about The Match via carrier pigeon or telegraph? I've stood on that spot and I have no idea where these thousands of spectators would stand. Maybe Patrick is looking at the book's photoshopped cover photo from the 1949 Crosby and thinks it was from the Match?
Original picture:
(http://www.julianpgraham.com/images/Cypress%20Point/Cypress%20Point%20Crosby%201950_WM.jpg)
Book cover...notice that the group on the tee has changed...the marvels of Photoshop...sets the tone for some of the contents of the book.
(http://www.golfclubatlas.com/images/MFmatch.jpg)
As to the ability of Ms. Hollins to hit a ball 200+ yards, well I don't know how we might convince Patrick that it was possible. Pictures usually say a thousand words, but obviously Patrick sees something in the above pictures of Ms. Hollins that the rest of us don't see. Not that there is anything wrong with that...one man's East German shot put medalist is another man's lithe temptress.
Patrick wants eyewitnesses to the shot by Ms. Hollins....well, Seth Raynor isn't around so I will have to settle for the pictures above, and they are good enough for me.
As for Mark Frost...as soon as I or anyone else can locate "Harvie's Meadow" (sic) at SFGC (pg 224), I will have greater respect for the quality of his writing.
-
Six years ago my family and I purchased Ms. Hollins' home at Pasatiempo. When we bought the house, the previous owners, in the disclosures, informed us that the house was still inhabited by Ms. Hollins' spirit, and we had to accept title to the property with that disclosure. I won't go into what they saw and heard, and what we've seen during our time here...but I will put the question to Ms. Hollins myself tonight...and Patrick I'll tell her that you are the one publicly calling her out and attempting to discredit her good name and her ability to strike a golf ball. I'd sleep with one eye open tonight if I were you.
-
Dan, you are arguing with a Green Wall.
Patrick cites a 1.8 knot wind for the day, from a weather station 6 miles away as evidence of the fact that wind wasn't a factor on "drives" by the four players in The Match (and ignores the fact that the flag on #17 was waving in the breeze). 'A' denotes the weather station that provided the wind figure for the day.
(http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a168/carrera993/Picture3-2.png)
Patrick ignores the fact that The Match took place the second week of January, and as you and I both know living in Northern California and having spent as much time over the last several decades on the Monterey Peninsula as Patrick has spent either on GCA or at NLGA, the temperature is not exactly tropical at that time of the year.
I already cited that, Perhaps your reading comprehension skills need a refresher course.
In fact, citing the same more-inland weather station that Patrick used, the low temperature for that day in January was 44 degrees and the average was a balmy 53 degrees.
You forget that he low occured at night and the average temperature for the day includes the night temperatures.
You probably didn't know this, but, stehy played during the day, teeing off at after 10:00 am when the temperatures hit 62-65 degrees, pretty nice weather for golf isn't it
Why would you disengenuously include night time readings when the match was played from approximately 10:30 to 3:00 ?
The warmest part of the day
Not exactly temperatures that would produce maximum distances for the four players in The Match. Nelson's "drive" cut through "mist" on #16...again not exactly conditions ideal for distance.
Kevin, anyone familiar with temperatures knows that the ocean produces milder temperatures with the temperature that day at 62-65
Patrick also says that there were "thousands of witnesses" to the shots on #16. Did George Coleman erect grandstands or something? Did Greyhound run shuttles for the spectators that found out about The Match via carrier pigeon or telegraph? I've stood on that spot and I have no idea where these thousands of spectators would stand. Maybe Patrick is looking at the book's photoshopped cover photo from the 1949 Crosby and thinks it was from the Match?
I believe I referenced "HUNDREDS" if not thousands
How many witnessed Marion Hollins's alleged shot ?
Original picture:
(http://www.julianpgraham.com/images/Cypress%20Point/Cypress%20Point%20Crosby%201950_WM.jpg)
Book cover...notice that the group on the tee has changed...the marvels of Photoshop...sets the tone for some of the contents of the book.
(http://www.golfclubatlas.com/images/MFmatch.jpg)
As to the ability of Ms. Hollins to hit a ball 200+ yards, well I don't know how we might convince Patrick that it was possible. Pictures usually say a thousand words, but obviously Patrick sees something in the above pictures of Ms. Hollins that the rest of us don't see. Not that there is anything wrong with that...one man's East German shot put medalist is another man's lithe temptress.
Patrick wants eyewitnesses to the shot by Ms. Hollins....well, Seth Raynor isn't around so I will have to settle for the pictures above, and they are good enough for me.
As for Mark Frost...as soon as I or anyone else can locate "Harvey's Meadow" (sic) at SFGC (pg 224), I will have greater respect for the quality of his writing.
Kevin, can you cite one error in Frost's description of the golf that day.
-
Patrick_Mucci writes:
Nelson stopped playing the PGA Tour because he had done it all, he had won over and over and over again.
He didn't stop playing golf.
Isn't that the definition of retired? In your world does retiring from professional golf mean you never again touch a golf club?
Hogan wasn't semi-retired.
Nine years later, at age 53, he tied for 15th at the PGA Championship
He was past his prime and semi-retired. He and Nelson were not the great golfers they were in the past. Hogan won at least 63 PGA events before 1956 and one after. Nelson won some 52 events prior to 1956, zero after.
Venturi and Ward were alreeady world class golfers
I guess it depends on how you define world class. They were excellent amateur golfers, but their records weren't exactly stellar the times they competed as amateurs against the best players in the era.
They'd be playing the more benign tees, not the heroic tees.
Unless you have another story, I've never heard that Hollins hit from the championship tees. All I've ever heard is she hit across the chasm to where the green would eventually be put. Do you have a story that says she hit from the non-existent championship tees?
It's a heroic carry, it's oceanside air, it was I&B circa 1926 and it was a woman amateur
I'm no expert on equipment, so I generally rely on Mr. Jeffery Ellis for equipment info. As has been mentioned numerous times, the 1.62 ball would have been easier to get across the bit of ocean. In 1926 steel shafts were in reasonably widespread use in the United States (The R&A still didn't allow them.) I was thinking one of the changes was the bulge to the driver, something I have read credited to Nelson. But according to Ellis the bulged face driver was fairly common in the 1910s.
So what were these revolutions in driver design between 1926 and 1956 that allowed the four golfers to reach and wouldn't have allowed Hollins to reach?
I'm also no expert on the golf swing -- which anyone who has ever golfed with me can verify. Your better argument than I&B is the changes to the swing with the new popularity of metal shafts. I'm not sure if the change to the typical swing would have made the golf shots longer or were more for accuracy.
If that's the way you conduct your research and that's what you base your conclusions on, your work would be classified somewhere between academically unsound to intellectually dishonest to fraudulent.
Please quote anything I said that was unsound, dishonest or fraudulent. If you can't you should apologize.
Why the blind attempts to perpetuate the myth ?
When did I ever attempt to perpetuate anything about Hollins at Cypress Point?
If you can't prove the alleged story, if you don't have so much as one eyewitness to the event, how can you adamantly defend and declare it's authenticity ?
I have never once tried to defend the Hollins story. It's possible the Hollins story is a myth, it is also possible it is true. You made an attempt to debunk the story, and as I have shown, you have failed at every step. You got to come up with reasonable reasons why she wouldn't have been able to do it. The fact that four other (very good golfers) could do it 30 years later doesn't prove she couldn't do it in 1926.
Cheers,
Dan King
The 1925 U.S. Open saw widespread use of metal shafts. Even Willie Macfarlane, the eventual champion, used steel shaft woods.
--Jeffery B. Ellis
-
I may have a solution to the debate/dilema.
Let's have all those insisting that Marion Hollins hit three balls onto the green/site from 220 yards, wager that they can do the same thing with balls and clubs from 1926.
I'm sure that I can find clubs from 1926.
Balls may be a little harder to come by.
Which one of those claiming the authenticity of the fete would be willing to place a substantial wager where the failure or success of doing so, is amply punished/rewarded.
I'll bank the bets to your hearts content
Then, for half the money you lose, you can try it with a driver and balls circa 1956. ;D
Then, for a quarter of the money you've lost, I'll let you try it with today's I&B.
That's fair isn't it.
Eddie Lowery, if you're listening, how much action do you want.
The syndicate line forms at the right
-
Pat
Twice I have asked you a direct question on this and each time you have not answered me. If you do not wish to answer that is fine, but it is your thread.
Most likely the only witnesses to the "event" were Raynor and Hollins herself. Raynor went and died shortly after so that kind of ruled him out from writing an account. And Marion told Mackenzie about it, no doubt to influence him to make the hole as a par 3 as she wanted - not for the reason of promoting her own abilities, as I suspect she was a fairly self-effacing person.
Mackenzie then recorded what Hollins told him in his writings for what became Spirit of St Andrews. To disbelieve that it happened, you have to disbelieve both Hollins and Mackenzie. You can do that if you like, but I believe it happened, just look at the photo of her at the top of her swing.
-
Patrick_Mucci writes:
Kevin, can you cite one error in Frost's description of the golf that day.
Perhaps you missed this in the other thread or you don't know how to look back in a thread.
Bob_Huntley wrote on August 12, 2008:
Between watching the Olympics and the PGA Championship I re-read Mark Frost's 'The Match."
I must say that it was a jolly good read but I closed the covers thinking that he is one sloppy writer.
Some the the irritants to me were his description of Hogan looking like a middleweight at 145lbs...when 160lbs was the limit for that particular class. He claims that Hogan holds the course record at Cypress, with a 63. If he thinks that conceded putts in a match play event constitutes a record, then his golfing knowledge is sadly lacking.
On page 31 he writes "that Coleman never owned his own mansion in Monterey but rented a New England Style cottage in the hills above Pebble Beach." I wrote to George Coleman's daughter in Venice and her letter below disputes that and also that Hogan did not stay with Crosby.
"Hello Bob,
No, we owned a house on the corner next to the Lodge. It is the Cottage
which is for sale now. Mother and Daddy rented before the war, but after the war
they bought the house and never rented again They always rented the old Morse
house which isn't there any more. Not everything in the book is right. Hogan
never stayed with Crosby. I can't say the house they bought was a mansion.
They kept building on.
All the best to you and your wife,
Sarah"
Back in 1970/71 I was invited to play in a fourball match at Cypress by Jack Westland. He would partner Art Bell and I would play with Harvie Ward. Harvie teased Bell by never conceding him a putt and causing him untold anguish as by that time Bell was an awful putter. We won the match and had a drink afterward and Ward mentioned the match with no great appreciation that it had changed the game forever. He was still using the same rusty old putter and said " I may change wives but never this."
Cheers,
Dan King
Man has such a predilection for systems and abstract deductions that he is ready to distort the truth intentionally, he is ready to deny the evidence of his senses only to justify his logic.
--Fyodor Dostoyevsky
-
Patrick_Mucci writes:
Nelson stopped playing the PGA Tour because he had done it all, he had won over and over and over again.
He didn't stop playing golf.
Isn't that the definition of retired? In your world does retiring from professional golf mean you never again touch a golf club?
Dan, what did Nelson shoot that day ?
Hogan wasn't semi-retired.
Nine years later, at age 53, he tied for 15th at the PGA Championship
He was past his prime and semi-retired.
He and Nelson were not the great golfers they were in the past.
Really, what did HOGAN and NELSON shoot that day ?
Hogan won at least 63 PGA events before 1956 and one after. Nelson won some 52 events prior to 1956, zero after.
Venturi and Ward were alreeady world class golfers
I guess it depends on how you define world class. They were excellent amateur golfers, but their records weren't exactly stellar the times they competed as amateurs against the best players in the era.
They'd be playing the more benign tees, not the heroic tees.
Unless you have another story, I've never heard that Hollins hit from the championship tees. All I've ever heard is she hit across the chasm to where the green would eventually be put. Do you have a story that says she hit from the non-existent championship tees?
Dan, what do you mean that you never heard that she hit from the championship tees.
One account says she hit three balls from 220, another that she hit a brassie from 220-230
You don't think those were the Lady's or Senior tees do you ?
It's a heroic carry, it's oceanside air, it was I&B circa 1926 and it was a woman amateur
I'm no expert on equipment, so I generally rely on Mr. Jeffery Ellis for equipment info. As has been mentioned numerous times, the 1.62 ball would have been easier to get across the bit of ocean. In 1926 steel shafts were in reasonably widespread use in the United States (The R&A still didn't allow them.) I was thinking one of the changes was the bulge to the driver, something I have read credited to Nelson. But according to Ellis the bulged face driver was fairly common in the 1910s.
Do you know which shaft Marion Hollins was using ? Or, are you just making an assumption to help your case
So what were these revolutions in driver design between 1926 and 1956 that allowed the four golfers to reach and wouldn't have allowed Hollins to reach?
True temper shafts for one.
Stepped shafts for another
Inserts for another
I'm also no expert on the golf swing -- which anyone who has ever golfed with me can verify. Your better argument than I&B is the changes to the swing with the new popularity of metal shafts. I'm not sure if the change to the typical swing would have made the golf shots longer or were more for accuracy.
If that's the way you conduct your research and that's what you base your conclusions on, your work would be classified somewhere between academically unsound to intellectually dishonest to fraudulent.
Please quote anything I said that was unsound, dishonest or fraudulent. If you can't you should apologize.
Why the blind attempts to perpetuate the myth ?
When did I ever attempt to perpetuate anything about Hollins at Cypress Point?
If you can't prove the alleged story, if you don't have so much as one eyewitness to the event, how can you adamantly defend and declare it's authenticity ?
I have never once tried to defend the Hollins story. It's possible the Hollins story is a myth, it is also possible it is true. You made an attempt to debunk the story, and as I have shown, you have failed at every step. You got to come up with reasonable reasons why she wouldn't have been able to do it. The fact that four other (very good golfers) could do it 30 years later doesn't prove she couldn't do it in 1926.
Very good golfers ? You're kidding and trying to diminish their abilities
Cheers,
Dan King
The 1925 U.S. Open saw widespread use of metal shafts. Even Willie Macfarlane, the eventual champion, used steel shaft woods.
--Jeffery B. Ellis
-
Pat,
We don't want the truth....we cannot handle the truth!
Don't spoil such a good story.... 8)
Brian,
You're right and I should know better.
What I'm surprised by is how some, especially those who have never played the hole, are adamantly clinging to the authenticity of an undocumented event, especially in light of the nature of the equipment in 1926 and the talent of the four participants on 01-11-56, along with the experiences of Pat Burke, Jeff Dawson, myself and others
What I'm surprised by is how some, especially those who have never played in 1926 with the equipment of the day would adamantly claim than it could not be used for an event reported a medical doctor and an engineer, but most decidedly not by a lawyer, especially in light of the of the talent of the executor of the event, and the fictional details of an event purported to contradict the possibilities of the event.
-
I wonder how many times Marion hollins played that hole after it was built, and how many times she made it onto the green with a driver?
-
I wonder how many times Marion hollins played that hole after it was built, and how many times she made it onto the green with a driver?
She never needed driver after that first time. She got by with brassie from then on.
:D
-
Patrick_Mucci writes:
Dan, what did Nelson shoot that day ?
Really, what did HOGAN and NELSON shoot that day ?
They were playing match play. Did they both finish every hole?
Does shooting a really good score on a single day not in competition in match play make you better than players that shoot less of a score in competition in medal play?
Dan, what do you mean that you never heard that she hit from the championship tees.
One account says she hit three balls from 220, another that she hit a brassie from 220-230
You don't think those were the Lady's or Senior tees do you ?
From Alister MacKenzie's The Spirit of St. Andrews pg 135:
"It was suggested to her by the late Seth Raynor that it was a pity the carry over the ocean was too long to enable a hole to be designed on this particular site. Miss Hollins said she did not think it was an impossible carry. She then teed up a ball and drove to the middle of the site of the suggested green."
If it is some story other than MacKenzie's whose story are you trying to debunk? If it was the silly one you read on the internet that claimed Hollins was the owner of the property then there are much better ways to debunk that story.
Do you know which shaft Marion Hollins was using ? Or, are you just making an assumption to help your case
I made no assumption. I am saying according to Jeffrey Ellis metal shafts were becoming fairly popular by 1926. Again, I'm not debunking the story, I'm telling you that you have failed to debunk the story.
True temper shafts for one.
Jeffrey Ellis page 150:
Robert Crowley applied for the true temper shaft patent in 1922 and it was granted on July 6, 1926. Do you know if Hollins did not use the existing true temper shafts?
Stepped shafts for another
Makes the shaft stronger, does it enable the golfer to hit the ball farther?
Inserts for another
According to Ellis, there were inserts in clubs made in the 1920s.
In the 1920s Hollins was a rich and well-known woman. She would have had no trouble getting top-of-the-line golf clubs.
Very good golfers ? You're kidding and trying to diminish their abilities
I don't believe so. Are you denying the four of them were very good golfers?
They were not the best golfers in the world in 1956. They were really damn good, but not the best.
Are you still insisting I have claimed the Hollins story is true or from your silence do I assume you admit you were wrong about my position?
Cheers,
Dan King
There was not a missed shot in the whole round. It seems we were tying ever hole with birdies [Only three holes were halved with pars, the first, eleventh and fourteenth].
--Ken Venturi (on the 1956 match between amateurs Venturi and Ward against legends Hogan and Nelson at Cypress Point)
-
I'm surprised either side is adamant about this. As it stands, it's unknown. Pat nails the weaknesses in the story: no witnesses, told 2nd or 3rd hand, involving a shot that was so long, two of the best male players in the world -- Ward and Hogan -- normally didn't try it 30 years later.
The debate over Frost's info is a red herring now. Two of the participants confirmed Frost was right. i.e. we don't need Frost as a source anymore. Two of the guys who took part in the match say they hit driver. One of them says all four hit driver.
Let me list some of the unknowns about this story. We don't know what the weather was. We don't know what the wind was. We don't know what club she hit (steel shaft? Not yet legal, either in the U.S. or Britain). We don't know where she teed from (195 yard carry or 220 yard carry?). We don't know what ball she played. We don't know how far she could hit the ball then, or how far she needed to hit the ball that day.
Maybe nothing happened at all. Maybe Marion hit a bunch of balls, many different times, and got some across the chasm. Maybe the story is 100% accurate, exactly as it stands. How can we possibly know, and how can anyone be so certain of their belief?
-
Jim, I for one am not absolutely certain in my belief. However, I have no reason to doubt Mackenzie and by inference, Hollins. In terms of Mythbusters, I'd say its Plausible.
As for Frost's info, I have not read the book, but I am assuming it is the source for Pat's info that she hit three balls. This is in direct contrast to the one ball of Mac's account, which as far as I can tell was the first account of Hollins' feat.
-
Raynor died January 23, 1926. The chronology I just read of his last days says he spent time in Hawaii, designing two courses there. He got very sick, came back to the mainland and immediately headed to Palm Springs. That is where he died.
So if Marion made the shot in front of Raynor, it likely happened earlier than 1926.
Neil, I thought before this thread that Mac saw Hollins hit the shot. That's why I took it as true: the alternative is that he lied. The fact that AM didn't see the shot, and only heard the story (who knows from whom?), means it carries a lot less weight for me.
Again we don't need Frost anymore. Ward and Venturi both say they hit driver. Venturi said all four hit driver.
-
I may have a solution to the debate/dilema.
Let's have all those insisting that Marion Hollins hit three balls onto the green/site from 220 yards, wager that they can do the same thing with balls and clubs from 1926.
I'm sure that I can find clubs from 1926.
Balls may be a little harder to come by.
Which one of those claiming the authenticity of the fete would be willing to place a substantial wager where the failure or success of doing so, is amply punished/rewarded.
I'll bank the bets to your hearts content
Then, for half the money you lose, you can try it with a driver and balls circa 1956. ;D
Then, for a quarter of the money you've lost, I'll let you try it with today's I&B.
That's fair isn't it.
Eddie Lowery, if you're listening, how much action do you want.
The syndicate line forms at the right
IN! What day are we playing? ;)
The day I played there, our caddy who had been caddying there for 30 years, told us that he had NEVER raked the back bunker in 16. An elderly gentleman in my group proceeded to FLY it into the back bunker with a strong wind slightly into us from the right with 3 wood. Now do I think that he had NEVER actually seen anyone in that bunker, no. But it makes for a good story and encourages people to hit enough club.
I think the story is either legend, as Pat suggests, or it wasn't from the back tee and since there was no green, the middle of the green part is fabrication for the story.
-
I may have a solution to the debate/dilema.
Let's have all those insisting that Marion Hollins hit three balls onto the green/site from 220 yards, wager that they can do the same thing with balls and clubs from 1926.
I'm sure that I can find clubs from 1926.
Balls may be a little harder to come by.
Which one of those claiming the authenticity of the fete would be willing to place a substantial wager where the failure or success of doing so, is amply punished/rewarded.
I'll bank the bets to your hearts content
Then, for half the money you lose, you can try it with a driver and balls circa 1956. ;D
Then, for a quarter of the money you've lost, I'll let you try it with today's I&B.
That's fair isn't it.
Eddie Lowery, if you're listening, how much action do you want.
The syndicate line forms at the right
Pat is this event sanctioned by the club or are we sneaking on??? ;D
Do we get to play all 18 or just hit shots at the 16th?
Finally, if some are suggesting that Marion could do it with that equipment, how does proving that those making the claims can't do it prove that Marion couldn't do it if Marion was a superior golfer to the participants?
This is just a creative ploy fishing for access, isn't it? You don't care about the outcome in the least. ;) ;)
-
Pat,
If you are going to hit a ball that has high spin off the driver (e.g., the balata covered balls used back in the day) into the wind, do you go all out to hit it hard? Or, do you let up a little to reduce the spin? You've made the shot. What club did you use? What was the wind? What kind of swing did you give it? Into the wind, do you tee a 3 wood to hit it low? Or do you hit less than a full driver?
-
I may have a solution to the debate/dilema.
Let's have all those insisting that Marion Hollins hit three balls onto the green/site from 220 yards, wager that they can do the same thing with balls and clubs from 1926.
I'm sure that I can find clubs from 1926.
Balls may be a little harder to come by.
Which one of those claiming the authenticity of the fete would be willing to place a substantial wager where the failure or success of doing so, is amply punished/rewarded.
Patrick, I've a feeling that this challenge will turn against you about everyone (anyone?) who had been with you.
Bob Huntley wrote above that in the 1970s he hit the green 13 times in a row with a three wood. While Bob is larger than life in many ways, I doubt he was ever quite as physically impressive as Miss Marion Hollins.
Also Patrick, I think you may be overestimating distance advancements due to improving club technology between the 1920's and 1950s. Not so sure about the impact on the ball, but 1920's era brassies worked very well.
-
Jim Nugent writes:
I'm surprised either side is adamant about this. As it stands, it's unknown.
Is there someone out there arguing they know Hollins hit the shots? The arguments I've participated in and I've seen others participate in is the poor reasoning by Patrick with his claim that he has proved it didn't happen.
Pat nails the weaknesses in the story: no witnesses, told 2nd or 3rd hand, involving a shot that was so long, two of the best male players in the world -- Ward and Hogan -- normally didn't try it 30 years later.
This is the problem with using the shots made 30 years later to some how prove it couldn't have happened. There are far too many variables between the 1926 and 1956 event. I have not seen any reason to believe Hollins could not have hit a shot over the chasm. To say Cypress membership could hit the shot but Hollins (One of the longest women hitters of her era) couldn't is not very convincing.
The debate over Frost's info is a red herring now.
It depends. Is that were Mucci got his story of her dropping three balls and hitting them 220 to what would be the middle of the green came from? I'm not about to read Frost's book, so I have no idea if that is where Mucci got his three ball story.
Two of the participants confirmed Frost was right. i.e. we don't need Frost as a source anymore. Two of the guys who took part in the match say they hit driver. One of them says all four hit driver.
I'm more than willing to concede the four golfers in 1956 hit driver. What does that prove about 1926?
Let me list some of the unknowns about this story. We don't know what the weather was. We don't know what the wind was. We don't know what club she hit (steel shaft? Not yet legal, either in the U.S. or Britain).
Metal shafts were legal in the U.S. as of an executive committee meeting on January 10, 1925. Willie Macfarlane won the 1925 U.S. Open using steel shafts. They had been around since the 19th century and weren't made illegal by the R&A until 1919 with the USGA quickly following. According to Jeffery Ellis "Between 1910 and 1925, no fewer than nineteen different British and American patents dealt with metal shafts." We have no way of knowing if Hollins used one of these metal shafts or not.
Maybe nothing happened at all. Maybe Marion hit a bunch of balls, many different times, and got some across the chasm. Maybe the story is 100% accurate, exactly as it stands. How can we possibly know, and how can anyone be so certain of their belief?
Amen, brother. This has been my argument with Patrick since the beginning of this thread. We don't know. He believes because the four golfers hit driver in 1956 it proves Hollins couldn't have done it in 1926. My original argument was just because Frost said something took place in 1956 doesn't make it true. Frost is an unreliable source. Even conceding all using drivers in 1956 does nothing to prove what did or didn't happen in 1926 (or 1925).
Now Patrick is saying he can prove she didn't hit the shot by having a bunch of us go out and try to replicate the shot. I have no idea what he thinks that will prove -- it doesn't do anything to change all of the unknowns from Hollins shot.
Cheers,
Dan King
Logic is the art of going wrong with confidence.
--Joseph Wood Krutch
-
Jim Nugent writes:
I'm surprised either side is adamant about this. As it stands, it's unknown.
Is there someone out there arguing they know Hollins hit the shots? The arguments I've participated in and I've seen others participate in is the poor reasoning by Patrick with his claim that he has proved it didn't happen.
Pat nails the weaknesses in the story: no witnesses, told 2nd or 3rd hand, involving a shot that was so long, two of the best male players in the world -- Ward and Hogan -- normally didn't try it 30 years later.
This is the problem with using the shots made 30 years later to some how prove it couldn't have happened. There are far too many variables between the 1926 and 1956 event. I have not seen any reason to believe Hollins could not have hit a shot over the chasm. To say Cypress membership could hit the shot but Hollins (One of the longest women hitters of her era) couldn't is not very convincing.
The debate over Frost's info is a red herring now.
It depends. Is that were Mucci got his story of her dropping three balls and hitting them 220 to what would be the middle of the green came from? I'm not about to read Frost's book, so I have no idea if that is where Mucci got his three ball story.
Two of the participants confirmed Frost was right. i.e. we don't need Frost as a source anymore. Two of the guys who took part in the match say they hit driver. One of them says all four hit driver.
I'm more than willing to concede the four golfers in 1956 hit driver. What does that prove about 1926?
Let me list some of the unknowns about this story. We don't know what the weather was. We don't know what the wind was. We don't know what club she hit (steel shaft? Not yet legal, either in the U.S. or Britain).
Metal shafts were legal in the U.S. as of an executive committee meeting on January 10, 1925. Willie Macfarlane won the 1925 U.S. Open using steel shafts. They had been around since the 19th century and weren't made illegal by the R&A until 1919 with the USGA quickly following. According to Jeffery Ellis "Between 1910 and 1925, no fewer than nineteen different British and American patents dealt with metal shafts." We have no way of knowing if Hollins used one of these metal shafts or not.
Maybe nothing happened at all. Maybe Marion hit a bunch of balls, many different times, and got some across the chasm. Maybe the story is 100% accurate, exactly as it stands. How can we possibly know, and how can anyone be so certain of their belief?
Amen, brother. This has been my argument with Patrick since the beginning of this thread. We don't know. He believes because the four golfers hit driver in 1956 it proves Hollins couldn't have done it in 1926. My original argument was just because Frost said something took place in 1956 doesn't make it true. Frost is an unreliable source. Even conceding all using drivers in 1956 does nothing to prove what did or didn't happen in 1926 (or 1925).
Now Patrick is saying he can prove she didn't hit the shot by having a bunch of us go out and try to replicate the shot. I have no idea what he thinks that will prove -- it doesn't do anything to change all of the unknowns from Hollins shot.
Cheers,
Dan King
Logic is the art of going wrong with confidence.
--Joseph Wood Krutch
Dan, lots of posters in this thread seem to have concluded that Marion definitely hit the shot. Pat, of course, doesn't seem to grant her the possibility.
You said steel shafts were made legal in 1925. Can you give me a source on that? I ask because I saw a number of Internet sites say steel wasn't legal in the U.S. till 1926, and in Britain till 1929. These sites don't cite any authority for that. They also make it sound like steel was rare in the early to mid-20s, only really catching on later in that decade and taking over in the 1930s.
Curious - did Bobby Jones play steel in 1930?
-
Jim Nugent writes:
Dan, lots of posters in this thread seem to have concluded that Marion definitely hit the shot.
Can you give a for instance? I haven't seen anyone make that argument but I'm guessing I haven't read every post in this thread.
You said steel shafts were made legal in 1925. Can you give me a source on that?
Jeffrey Ellis' The Clubmaker's Art page 499. He references (United States Golf Association Year Book 1925, 255). He also said Willie Macfarlane won the U.S. Open in 1925 used steel shaft woods. I'll look around my library for Chapman's book and see if it agrees.
They also make it sound like steel was rare in the early to mid-20s, only really catching on later in that decade and taking over in the 1930s.
But Marion Hollins was a rich, well connected woman. I have no doubt had she wanted steel shafts, even if rare, she could have steel shafts. It doesn't prove she had them or not. It just doesn't allow for the story that she couldn't have reached the other side because her shafts were hickory.
And I'm not sure that would be all that valid of an argument. All things being equal: Does a steel shaft result in a longer shot than a good hickory shaft?
Curious - did Bobby Jones play steel in 1930?
I thought I remember Bobby Jones in 1930 being the last hurrah for hickory shafts -- but I don't remember where I read it.
Cheers,
Dan King
It gave ye a good swing there, Ah could see. But tha' is just another kind 'o magic -- Seamus's magic. 'Tis no different from the magic o' science and steel-shafted clubs, just another kind. Tha' is why he will na' let me try it on the links heer. Says it's just another diversion. O' course, the members might na' let me use it either.
--Shivas Irons (Golf in the Kingdom)
-
The beauty of the DG is that only here would a score of grown men argue over the course of 4 days and 5 pages the ability of a long dead and not so terribly attractive women to hit a golf ball 200+ yards 85 years ago. What a great place!
With all due respect Pat, I think the failure of the argument is Harvie/Ken/Ben/Byron could only hit drivers 220 yards. I have to believe each of these men in the prime could hit well over 250+ under normal circumstances. Whether Frost's account is true or not seems irrelevent. To cite an example of another great golf shot in history...to set up his famous eagle at the 15th at Augusta, Gene Sarazen (all 5ft 5in of him) reportable hit driver 250 yards in 1935.
If Gene could drive the ball 250 yards in 1935, I have to believe an accomplished women golfer who could probably kick his tail in a street fight could manage 200-220.
The story may be myth, but I have to believe there were a few women who could carry it 200 yards.
As for your little wager...if you set it up and I get to warm up on holes 1-15, I'm in.
-
Patrick_Mucci writes:
Dan, what did Nelson shoot that day ?
Really, what did HOGAN and NELSON shoot that day ?
They were playing match play. Did they both finish every hole?
Probably not, but, that doesn't mean that they wouldn't have shot the same scores
Does shooting a really good score on a single day not in competition in match play make you better than players that shoot less of a score in competition in medal play?
If you think that Hogan and Nelson weren't being ferociously competitive, you're kidding yourself.
There's not a PGA Tour Pro that wants to get beat by hotshot amateurs, especially Hogan and Nelson.
You can bet that they were playing at their highest level
Dan, what do you mean that you never heard that she hit from the championship tees.
One account says she hit three balls from 220, another that she hit a brassie from 220-230
You don't think those were the Lady's or Senior tees do you ?
From Alister MacKenzie's The Spirit of St. Andrews pg 135:
"It was suggested to her by the late Seth Raynor that it was a pity the carry over the ocean was too long to enable a hole to be designed on this particular site. Miss Hollins said she did not think it was an impossible carry. She then teed up a ball and drove to the middle of the site of the suggested green."
I think it's safe to say that Raynor had a fairly good understanding of distance and the golfer's abilities.
Which leads me to doubt the story even more.
But, here's the hole, if she didn't tee off from the current back tee, where did she tee off from that would force the carry over the chasm ?
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/CPC16th1926Plan-1.jpg?t=1286940510)
If it is some story other than MacKenzie's whose story are you trying to debunk?
If it was the silly one you read on the internet that claimed Hollins was the owner of the property then there are much better ways to debunk that story.
It's NOT MacKenzie's story.
He's just repeating what he's heard, not what he witnessed
Do you know which shaft Marion Hollins was using ? Or, are you just making an assumption to help your case
I made no assumption. I am saying according to Jeffrey Ellis metal shafts were becoming fairly popular by 1926. Again, I'm not debunking the story, I'm telling you that you have failed to debunk the story.
Others say that the steel shaft wasn't introduced in America until 1925, including David Nicholls.
"Steel shafts were introduced in the US in around 1925, and became standard everywhere from the mid 1930s, as they did not break like hickory shafts and could be produced reliably with uniform feel in matched sets. " Thus, it's highly unlikely that she was using steel shafts, especially when you consider that the alleged shots were probably taken in 1925 or earlier
True temper shafts for one.
Jeffrey Ellis page 150:
Robert Crowley applied for the true temper shaft patent in 1922 and it was granted on July 6, 1926.
Do you know if Hollins did not use the existing true temper shafts?
Yes, I'd bet on it.
Since Raynor DIED on January 23, 1926 we know she wasn't using clubs patented on July 6, 1926, roughly six months afer his death.
And, since Raynor DIED on January 23, 1926, the alleged event probably took place in 1925 or earlier ? ? ?
Which would diminish the possibility that steel shafts were employed.
Stepped shafts for another
Makes the shaft stronger, does it enable the golfer to hit the ball farther?
YES, and more accurately
Inserts for another
According to Ellis, there were inserts in clubs made in the 1920s.
Which make and model ?
In the 1920s Hollins was a rich and well-known woman. She would have had no trouble getting top-of-the-line golf clubs.
Very good golfers ? You're kidding and trying to diminish their abilities
I don't believe so. Are you denying the four of them were very good golfers?
Yes, they weren't good, they were GREAT
They were not the best golfers in the world in 1956. They were really damn good, but not the best.
Are you still insisting I have claimed the Hollins story is true or from your silence do I assume you admit you were wrong about my position?
Your position does everything it can to dismiss the events of 01-11-56 and champion the event of 1925/6
To say you're neutral would be incorrect
Cheers,
Dan King
There was not a missed shot in the whole round. It seems we were tying ever hole with birdies [Only three holes were halved with pars, the first, eleventh and fourteenth].
--Ken Venturi (on the 1956 match between amateurs Venturi and Ward against legends Hogan and Nelson at Cypress Point)
At the begining of your reply you question the scores shot by the participants, NOW, you're citing Venturi who claims that NOT a shot was missed, reaffirming what I maintained about the quality of golf shot that day.
Thanks for the assist
-
Just because true temper shafts didn't have their patent approved yet doesn't mean they weren't available for use, especially for a woman as wealthy as Ms. Hollins. Patent pending products are widely used. I'm not saying true temper shafts were widely available, but you can't write it off.
-
With all due respect Pat, I think the failure of the argument is Harvie/Ken/Ben/Byron could only hit drivers 220 yards.
I have to believe each of these men in the prime could hit well over 250+ under normal circumstances.
Mike, have you ever played the hole ?
Venturi, Nelson and Ward all confirmed that they hit driver and that Hogan hit a driver.
Pat Burke, a PGA Tour Pro at the times he played the hole indicated that on the four occassions that he's teed off on the hole that he hit driver on three of them. I've hit driver there numerous times. Compare the ball and the equipment circa 1925 to 1956 to 1972 to 1979 to 1982 to present day.
Whether Frost's account is true or not seems irrelevent. To cite an example of another great golf shot in history...to set up his famous eagle at the 15th at Augusta, Gene Sarazen (all 5ft 5in of him) reportable hit driver 250 yards in 1935.
Mike, have you played the 15th at ANGC.
Are you aware of the favorable impact of roll, firm fairways and terrain ?
By 1935 Steel shafted clubs were widely in use, which wasn't the case in 1925.
And, the temperature and heaviness of the air at CPC differs radically from that at ANGC.
If Gene could drive the ball 250 yards in 1935, I have to believe an accomplished women golfer who could probably kick his tail in a street fight could manage 200-220.
Why do you equate total yardage with carry ?
The two are quite seperate.
The story may be myth, but I have to believe there were a few women who could carry it 200 yards.
As for your little wager...if you set it up and I get to warm up on holes 1-15, I'm in.
Just make sure you pony up the ante before you tee it up, it may be the most rewarding or the most expensive round of your life
-
Just because true temper shafts didn't have their patent approved yet doesn't mean they weren't available for use, especially for a woman as wealthy as Ms. Hollins. Patent pending products are often still widely used. I'm not saying true temper shafts were widely available, but you can't write it off.
Alex, would you cite for us which clubs had their patent pending but were widely available for use ?
Then could you do so circa 1925 ?
Everyone keeps on coming up with WILD possibilities.
How about coming up with something, anything of a substantive nature that supports the myth.
Today, I played and it was 51 degrees. On holes where the wind was in my face, a carry of 200 yards was a big hit, and that's with modern day balls and equipment. It would be impossible for me to do it with balls and equipment circa 1925
-
An aside: I grew up across the street from the Union Hardware Co. The first really viable steel shaft, made of drawn steel (no seam), was invented and produced there in 1924. Steel shafts were allowed by the USGA in 1924 and accepted by the R&A in 1929.
Union Hardware eventually produced Rifle (stepless steel) shafts and a few years ago they were bought out by True Temper. I happened to be visiting my aunt (who still lived across the street) when TT's trucks were driving out with the inventory and the machinery. Sad day for the town as quite a few jobs went down the road with those trucks.
p.s. I wonder if the whip of a hickory shaft actually helped Hollins make the shots. ;D
-
Pat
You keep going on calling it a myth. It is a story related by Mackenzie, and one he received firsthand from one of the participants. Not sure why you keep calling it a myth, guess it just suits you to call it that.
-
Robert Crowley applied for the true temper shaft patent in 1922 and it was granted on July 6, 1926.
Yes, I'd bet on it.
Since Raynor DIED on January 23, 1926 we know she wasn't using clubs patented on July 6, 1926, roughly six months afer his death.
Pat,
I really didn't want to get involved in this thread, since the answer "who cares?" keeps coming to mind but your appalling hectoring, lack of manners, and lack of logic made it difficult. Still, I held off. However, your obvious and complete and utter ignorance of the patent system and your willingness to plead it in aid when anyone with a base understanding would know it worked against you finally swung me. The patent was applied for in 1922. That means the invention had been made AND reduced to practice by then. The fact that the USPTO took 4 years to grant it is entirely irrelevant. If the patent was filed in 1922 the product was ready then. I can't believe it was't for sale soon after.
What I wonder, when someone is clearly as knowledgable and intelligent as you obviously are, is why you find it impossible to have an intelligent conversation rather than looking like a fool? Is it upbringing? So many times I have heard people say that you are a gentleman in the flesh. Why not behave like it online?
-
Pat
You keep going on calling it a myth.
It is a story related by Mackenzie, and one he received firsthand from one of the participants.
There is NO evidence to support your claim.
Can you provide the citation where either Hollins or Raynor related the story to MacKenzie ?
Not sure why you keep calling it a myth, guess it just suits you to call it that.
I call it a myth for several reasons, one of which is that the story is totally unsubstantiated by ANY witness.
-
Robert Crowley applied for the true temper shaft patent in 1922 and it was granted on July 6, 1926.
Yes, I'd bet on it.
Since Raynor DIED on January 23, 1926 we know she wasn't using clubs patented on July 6, 1926, roughly six months afer his death.
Pat,
I really didn't want to get involved in this thread, since the answer "who cares?" keeps coming to mind but your appalling hectoring, lack of manners, and lack of logic made it difficult. Still, I held off. However, your obvious and complete and utter ignorance of the patent system and your willingness to plead it in aid when anyone with a base understanding would know it worked against you finally swung me. The patent was applied for in 1922. That means the invention had been made AND reduced to practice by then. The fact that the USPTO took 4 years to grant it is entirely irrelevant. If the patent was filed in 1922 the product was ready then. I can't believe it was't for sale soon after.
Mark,
Your obvious and utter ignorance of the circumstances and the rules of golf are frightening.
Steel shafts were not permitted by the USGA in 1922 or 1923.
It was only in 1924 that they were approved for play.
The alleged Hollins event took place in 1925.
Do you think that the steel shaft had been perfected by 1925 ?
Others have indicated that they weren't in widespread use until the 1930's.
Given Marion Hollins relationship with the USGA do you think she cheated and used steel shafted woods prior to the USGA approval ?
What I wonder, when someone is clearly as knowledgable and intelligent as you obviously are, is why you find it impossible to have an intelligent conversation rather than looking like a fool? Is it upbringing? So many times I have heard people say that you are a gentleman in the flesh. Why not behave like it online?
Where do you get off with your attitude of righteous indignation.
You're the ass who started the name callling.
I see you're still smarting from debates previously lost.
Please reretire and go back to licking your wounds
-
Alex, would you cite for us which clubs had their patent pending but were widely available for use ?
Two well-known examples.
The original Ping Eye 2 (pat pending)...widely available.
The Anser 2 (pat pending) putter...widely available.
Do you believe that a manufacturer will hold off introducing a new and innovative product until the Patent Office has granted a final patent? I'm surprised you are so unfamiliar with the process.
How about coming up with something, anything of a substantive nature that supports the myth.
Something more substantive than several photographs of a woman whose hands looked like she never needed help opening a jar and whose legs reminded me of Robert Newhouse? What else do you need...a Trackman report of her clubhead speed, smash factor and spin rates?
Today, I played and it was 51 degrees. On holes where the wind was in my face, a carry of 200 yards was a big hit, and that's with modern day balls and equipment. It would be impossible for me to do it with balls and equipment circa 1925
Good for you getting out for a round, but are you trying to say that your power today is equivalent to the power of Ms Hollins in her 30's? Can you post a picture of you at the top of your backswing NOW so we can compare? Please wear a short sleeve shirt so we can have a look at your guns, Mr LaLanne. ;D
-
Patrick,
There you go again. You're wrong and someone has pointed it out. So what do you do? Deal with it in an intelligent, mature way? Or talk about obvious and utter ignorance? Of something I didn't mention? It is apparent that you have no interest in a discussion that attempts to discover the truth, you just want to behave like a high school bully.
Let me explain this in simple language, in the hope that even you might understand it.
Whatever the rules said in 1922, that would not have prevented True Temper filing an application for a patent, which I'm sure they did anticipating a change in the rules.
If True Temper filed the patent in 1922, they could manufacture the product then.
As soon as the rules changed, True Temper could sell the product. Indeed, they could sell it beforehand but players could not play in official competition.
It is still entirely possible, whatever your ramblings, that Hollins had a steel shafted club in 1926.
Now, do you want to have an intelligent conversation or continue behaving like a spoiled teenager?
-
Can anyone tell from the photos of Marion if she is swinging steel-shafted clubs?
Dan King -- I looked back over much of the thread. No one said she definitely hit the shot, though several think she was entirely capable of doing so.
Mackenzie did not take credit for #16. He gave that to Marion. Maybe more important than whether she hit the shot is whether she conceived the hole. If she did, would she really design a hole she could not carry? And if she did not route it, who did? Raynor? The story is that he thought the carry was too long. But is that myth?
-
Still waiting:
Patrick_Mucci writes:
If that's the way you conduct your research and that's what you base your conclusions on, your work would be classified somewhere between academically unsound to intellectually dishonest to fraudulent.
Please quote anything I said that was unsound, dishonest or fraudulent. If you can't you should apologize.
I think it's safe to say that Raynor had a fairly good understanding of distance and the golfer's abilities.
Which leads me to doubt the story even more.
Nothing wrong with doubt. You said it didn't happen and then gave us your unsound reasons why it couldn't have.
But, here's the hole, if she didn't tee off from the current back tee, where did she tee off from that would force the carry over the chasm
From near where the shorter tees are now. From right in front of the chasm. From up closer but still across the chasm.
Why do you think it was only possible for her to have to hit 220 yards to clear the chasm? What version of the Hollins shot said she hit the ball 220 yards from the center of what would eventually be the green?
It's NOT MacKenzie's story.
He's just repeating what he's heard, not what he witnessed
Again, which Marion Hollins story are you trying to debunk? Is it from Frost's book?
I reads the account in David Outerbridge's Champion in a Man's World and he claims she hit the shot with a brassie. He references the story from MacKenzie but doesn't say why his story isn't the same as MacKenzie's.
I was also mistaken about how wealthy Hollins was in 1925. She was well-to-do but wealth wouldn't come to her until the oil strike in 1928.
Others say that the steel shaft wasn't introduced in America until 1925, including David Nicholls.
Jeffery Ellis would disagree, and unlike Mr. Frost he has notes and a bibliography. The USGA legalized their use in January, 1925. Willie Macfarlane won the U.S. Open that year using steel-shafted woods. You have no way of saying either way what sort of club Hollins used.
Since Raynor DIED on January 23, 1926 we know she wasn't using clubs patented on July 6, 1926, roughly six months afer his death.
And, since Raynor DIED on January 23, 1926, the alleged event probably took place in 1925 or earlier ? ? ?
Which would diminish the possibility that steel shafts were employed.
Ever heard of patent pending?
Steel shafts were in use in the early 1920s. Steel shafts were illegal for tournament play in the U.S. between 1919 and January 1925. Hollins would not have been playing a tournament. No cheating involved.
Your position does everything it can to dismiss the events of 01-11-56 and champion the event of 1925/6
To say you're neutral would be incorrect
I know, you still haven't backed-up up your earlier claim I repeated in the first part of this post -- but I gotta ask you to back this up. Where have I dismissed the events of 1956 and championed the events of 1925/6? All I've ever done is laugh unmercifully at your attempted to debunk the Hollins story.
At the begining of your reply you question the scores shot by the participants, NOW, you're citing Venturi who claims that NOT a shot was missed, reaffirming what I maintained about the quality of golf shot that day.
Thanks for the assist
You know I like to help you as much as I can Patrick. You kind of need it.
I've played golf and not missed a shot. I didn't set the course record or get considered the greatest golfer in the world or have my shot compared to some other golfer who might have hit a similar shot in the vicinity in 1980.
Cheers,
Dan King
The big hitters certainly did not show the same enthusiasm as the short ones and some of them did not adopt steel for some time; Bobby Jones for instance won his four Championships in 1930 with wooden-shafted clubs.
--Bernard Darwin (Golf Between Two Wars)
-
Jim_Kennedy writes:
p.s. I wonder if the whip of a hickory shaft actually helped Hollins make the shots.
I was wondering this myself. According to Bernard Darwin in Golf Between Two Wars the short hitters were quick to change from hickory to steel with the longer hitters in less of a hurry to switch. He says Bobby Jones won his four Championships in 1930 using hickory shafts.
Marion Hollins was one of the longer hitters of her era.
Patrick_Mucci writes:
Today, I played and it was 51 degrees. On holes where the wind was in my face, a carry of 200 yards was a big hit, and that's with modern day balls and equipment. It would be impossible for me to do it with balls and equipment circa 1925
And what do you think the weather was like when Hollins might have hit this shot? It's tough to say since we don't have any idea what time of year or even what year the shot was hit.
Jim Nugent writes:
Can anyone tell from the photos of Marion if she is swinging steel-shafted clubs?
I'm a little more convinced it doesn't make much difference. According to Mr. Darwin the long hitters saw little reason to switch from hickory to steel. It was the shorter hitters who gained.
Dan King -- I looked back over much of the thread. No one said she definitely hit the shot, though several think she was entirely capable of doing so.
And that is how this whole thread started. Patrick said because Hogan/Nelson/Venturi/Ward made similar shots in 1956 there is no way Hollins could have done it in the 1920s. I've argued all along there are too many unknowns to say either way. The problem is Patrick keeps insisting I said things I never said and ignores requests for documentation.
Cheers,
Dan King
For every theory ye propose about the improvement o' the game, I'll show ye how the game is fadin' away, losin' its old charm, becomin' mechanzied by the Americans and the rest o' the world that blindly follows them.
--Julian Lang (Golf in the Kingdom)
-
Alex, would you cite for us which clubs had their patent pending but were widely available for use ?
Two well-known examples.
The original Ping Eye 2 (pat pending)...widely available.
The Anser 2 (pat pending) putter...widely available.
If the USGA hadn't approved the club as conforming, who would use it ?
Cheats ?
Do you believe that a manufacturer will hold off introducing a new and innovative product until the Patent Office has granted a final patent? I'm surprised you are so unfamiliar with the process.
I'm surprised that you don't understand the USGA's policy on conforming equipment.
The use of Clubs not approved as conforming is a violation of the rules of golf.
If the USGA had declared the steel shaft illegal, who would use it ? Certainly not Marion Hollins
How about coming up with something, anything of a substantive nature that supports the myth.
Something more substantive than several photographs of a woman whose hands looked like she never needed help opening a jar and whose legs reminded me of Robert Newhouse?
Having played with Keith Byers, Lawrence Taylor, Pepper Johnson and Bart Oates, I can assure you that the size of someone's hands and legs doesn't equate into driving distance when it comes to hitting a golf ball.
Did you ever see her full swing as opposed to a still photo ?
What else do you need...a Trackman report of her clubhead speed, smash factor and spin rates?
Today, I played and it was 51 degrees. On holes where the wind was in my face, a carry of 200 yards was a big hit, and that's with modern day balls and equipment. It would be impossible for me to do it with balls and equipment circa 1925
Good for you getting out for a round, but are you trying to say that your power today is equivalent to the power of Ms Hollins in her 30's? Can you post a picture of you at the top of your backswing NOW so we can compare? Please wear a short sleeve shirt so we can have a look at your guns, Mr LaLanne. ;D
At 6'3" 220, I'll take my chances at any age, 25, 35, 45 or 55 ;D
-
Having played with Keith Byers, Lawrence Taylor, Pepper Johnson and Bart Oates, I can assure you that the size of someone's hands and legs doesn't equate into driving distance when it comes to hitting a golf ball.
I laughed at this. Think about it Pat :)
As for Ms. Hollins being a cheat, she definitely did not use steel shafts before their approval for competition, but the shot we're talking about by all accounts is not well documented, so to assume she wasn't using steel shafts is also foolish. I'm not saying she did for sure, but it's POSSIBLE, which means you're wrong.
Jamie Sadlowski is 5'11" 165 pounds and hits the ball farther than anyone on the planet.
-
Patrick,
There you go again. You're wrong and someone has pointed it out.
I'm not wrong.
No one has been able to certify that Marion Hollins hit three balls with a driver, over the chasm, 220 to the center of the green site.
No one has been able to certify that Marion Hollins hit one ball with a driver or Brassie, over the chasm, to the center of the green site 220 yards away.
So what do you do? Deal with it in an intelligent, mature way? Or talk about obvious and utter ignorance?
You stupid ass, you were the one using that first used that language, I merely repeated what YOU said.
Of something I didn't mention? It is apparent that you have no interest in a discussion that attempts to discover the truth, you just want to behave like a high school bully.
You really are obtuse.
I'm the one asking for someone, anyone to produce concrete evidence that the alleged event took place.
I'm trying to discover the truth and all you and others can do is cry that you know she made the shot/s
Let me explain this in simple language, in the hope that even you might understand it.
Whatever the rules said in 1922, that would not have prevented True Temper filing an application for a patent, which I'm sure they did anticipating a change in the rules.
Let me explain this in simple language, in the hope that you might understand it.
Marion Hollins was very close to the USGA, winning the USGA Women's Amateur in 1921 and thereafter being named the Captain of the first Curtis Cup. Do you think she would be playing with clubs the USGA ruled illegal.
Get with the program
If True Temper filed the patent in 1922, they could manufacture the product then.
As soon as the rules changed, True Temper could sell the product. Indeed, they could sell it beforehand but players could not play in official competition.
Let's see if I understand your point.
You contend that Marion Hollins, who was extremely active in competitions, would play a set of conforming clubs in competitions, but another set, a set of non-conforming/illegal clubs when she wasn't playing in competitions.
It's obvious that you know nothnig about golfers who regularly compete in USGA and other governing body events
It is still entirely possible, whatever your ramblings, that Hollins had a steel shafted club in 1926.
No, that's impossible because we've already established that the alleged event had to have taken place PRIOR to 1926
Second, a person of her status in the golf and USGA world would NOT be playing with clubs ruled illegal.
Now, do you want to have an intelligent conversation or continue behaving like a spoiled teenager?
You're wrong again, I'd suggest that you go back to sulking and licking your wounds
-
Having played with Keith Byers, Lawrence Taylor, Pepper Johnson and Bart Oates, I can assure you that the size of someone's hands and legs doesn't equate into driving distance when it comes to hitting a golf ball.
I laughed at this. Think about it Pat :)
As for Ms. Hollins being a cheat, she definitely did not use steel shafts before their approval for competition, but the shot we're talking about by all accounts is not well documented, so to assume she wasn't using steel shafts is also foolish. I'm not saying she did for sure, but it's POSSIBLE, which means you're wrong.
Possible ? maybe
Probable? very Doubtful
Remember, the alleged event occured in 1925 or earlier.
And, even if she used steel shafts would you compare them to the true temper steel shafts of 1956 ?
Jamie Sadlowski is 5'11" 165 pounds and hits the ball farther than anyone on the planet.
Let's see how far the longest man on the planet can hit it with balls and equipment from 1925 or earlier.
Take a look at the size of the club heads in 1925.
-
Dan King,
Can you or anyone cite one iota of documented evidence from any eyewitness certifying the event ?
Until you can, the story is nothing more than a myth.
Additional information/evidence and reasonable thought lead a prudent man to conclude that it's a myth.
-
Ms. Hollins being close to the USGA actually helps the case being made for the possibility that she used steel shafts. She probably would've known before many others when they would be deemed legal for use in competition, so playing them in preparation for the switch seems more believable than any scenario you have created to the contrary.
Obviously no one is going to cite evidence from an eyewitness to the event. Donald Ross died long ago. That doesn't mean it didn't happen for sure. We can't prove anything and you haven't either, Patrick. We are only making the case that it was possible for Marion Hollins to carry the gap, nothing more.
My point with Sadlowski was obviously lost on you. He is an average size man with extraordinary power. The fact that Ms. Hollins was a woman is not enough reason to assume she couldn't carry the chasm. By your reasoning we should assume Charles Barkley hits 300 yard drives every time.
-
Patrick Mucci writes:
Can you or anyone cite one iota of documented evidence from any eyewitness certifying the event ?
Don't need to. As I've said countless times in this thread, the truth or untruth of Marion Hollins' feat is not something I'm going to guess about. There are far too many unknowns to draw any conclusion. As far as I can tell -- you are the one and only person who has drawn a conclusion, using faulty logic to say it could not have taken place. If you are now changing your position, please, just let us know.
Until you can, the story is nothing more than a myth.
Maybe, maybe not. There are tons of stuff I have no documented proof about but it doesn't automatically make them myths. If you ever had come up with a valid reason Hollins couldn't have hit the shot over the chasm I would listen. But your position she couldn't have because the four golfers in 1956 did hit the shot is laughable. There are just way to many unknowns from the Hollins shot to draw any such conclusion.
No matter how many times you try to get me to accept your red herrings I'm going to continue to refute it.
Additional information/evidence and reasonable thought lead a prudent man to conclude that it's a myth.
Assuming that prudent man is also crazy.
Cheers,
Dan King
The difference between now and when I played during my younger days is my drives are shorter and my short game is longer.
--Simon Hobday
-
Patrick,
There you go again. You're wrong and someone has pointed it out.
I'm not wrong.
No one has been able to certify that Marion Hollins hit three balls with a driver, over the chasm, 220 to the center of the green site.
No one has been able to certify that Marion Hollins hit one ball with a driver or Brassie, over the chasm, to the center of the green site 220 yards away.
But this thread started with you trying to prove that she did not. You have utterly failed to do so. It is not for anyone to prove she did, indeed, no-one has suggested they can since, if it is true only Raynor and Hollins were there and both are dead, it is for you to prove she did not. I repeat, you have utterly failed to do so. It is entirely typical of your “style” of argument to attempt to turn the burden of proof around. Sadly for you we are not all that stupid as to allow you to do so.
So what do you do? Deal with it in an intelligent, mature way? Or talk about obvious and utter ignorance?
You stupid ass, you were the one using that first used that language, I merely repeated what YOU said.
But you do appear to be utterly ignorant of the patent system, I can’t help that. Your discussion of the patent demonstrated ignorance. I’m sorry, I can’t help that. Nowhere did I mention the rules. Nice touch calling me an ass, by the way. Classy.
Of something I didn't mention? It is apparent that you have no interest in a discussion that attempts to discover the truth, you just want to behave like a high school bully.
You really are obtuse.
I'm the one asking for someone, anyone to produce concrete evidence that the alleged event took place.
No, you’re not. You’re the one claiming to have proved it didn’t and, when faced with the inadequacy of your argument, attempting to turn it around.I'm trying to discover the truth and all you and others can do is cry that you know she made the shot/s
I don’t think you have any interest in the truth. Just in being right. Or at least trying to look like you’re right.
Let me explain this in simple language, in the hope that even you might understand it.
Whatever the rules said in 1922, that would not have prevented True Temper filing an application for a patent, which I'm sure they did anticipating a change in the rules.
Let me explain this in simple language, in the hope that you might understand it.
Marion Hollins was very close to the USGA, winning the USGA Women's Amateur in 1921 and thereafter being named the Captain of the first Curtis Cup. Do you think she would be playing with clubs the USGA ruled illegal.
Get with the program
No. But then I didn’t say so. I said that she could very possibly have been playing steel shafted clubs in 1926. Not in 1922 when the patent was filed. I don’t think my point was difficult to understand, except for someone with no interest in understanding it.
If True Temper filed the patent in 1922, they could manufacture the product then.
As soon as the rules changed, True Temper could sell the product. Indeed, they could sell it beforehand but players could not play in official competition.
Let's see if I understand your point.
You contend that Marion Hollins, who was extremely active in competitions, would play a set of conforming clubs in competitions, but another set, a set of non-conforming/illegal clubs when she wasn't playing in competitions.
It's obvious that you know nothnig about golfers who regularly compete in USGA and other governing body events
Where did I say that? Another of your tedious tactics in these “conversations” is to deliberately misrepresent what others are saying. In 1926 Hollins could have been playing steel shafted woods in competition as well as non-competition.
It is still entirely possible, whatever your ramblings, that Hollins had a steel shafted club in 1926.
No, that's impossible because we've already established that the alleged event had to have taken place PRIOR to 1926
Second, a person of her status in the golf and USGA world would NOT be playing with clubs ruled illegal.
Now, do you want to have an intelligent conversation or continue behaving like a spoiled teenager?
You're wrong again, I'd suggest that you go back to sulking and licking your wounds
No wounds to lick, thanks.
-
With an exhibition of feminine golfing skill such as the Edgewater links will seldom see again, Miss Collett justified her title with a brilliant 38 on the third nine of the scheduled 36-holes with Miss Turpie. That 38 was three under women's par and was made over water-soaked fairways that robbed much of the distance from her shots.........Miss Collett also won the distance driving contest by knocking three golf balls for a total of 659 yards.
That's 219.66 @ Pat ;D on water-soaked fairways no less
-
If the USGA hadn't approved the club as conforming, who would use it ?
Cheats ?
Please point out the Rule that requires a piece of equipment to be Patented (as opposed to Patent Pending like the Ping Eye2 and the Anser 2) to be conforming. If the Anser 2 Pat Pending was not legal for use, then I have bad news to deliver to players like Greg Norman, Mark O'Meara and a young Tiger Woods who used it extensively.
Also, I have no idea why you insist Marion Hollins must have used a steel shaft for the shot. What makes a steel shaft necessary for it? Are you saying that a flexible shaft like the Whippy Tempomaster cannot be hit extreme distances like in this video?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sOwlNLYS5w
Steel offered consistency and durability, and later on stepped steel shafts allowed manufacturers to fine tune the flex properties of a shaft. Ms. Hollins no doubt had a shaft in her driver or brassie that she was happy with, so she would be no better off with a steel shaft for that shot.
For a player with Ms. Hollins's strength and technique (that collection of NY Giants you cited that have the former and not the latter) any sort of shaft would be usable. Flexible hickory or stiffer steel...wouldn't matter one bit.
-
Bobby Jones was seriously impressed with the whippy shafts used by Frank J. Helme:
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/AmericanGolfer/1932/ag354m.pdf
-
Bernard had something to say about the ladies and distance:
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/AmericanGolfer/1932/ag354s.pdf
an excerpt: There is a certain one-shot hole at Worplesdon which measures by the card one hundred and eighty-five yards, and the green rises to something of a plateau. To this hole in the final Miss Park, who looks as if you could blow her away, took a No. 2 iron with no wind to help her. She laid the ball some twelve feet short of the hole and expressed her satisfaction that she had not put her partner over the green.
-
Bernard had something to say about the ladies and distance:
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/AmericanGolfer/1932/ag354s.pdf
an excerpt: There is a certain one-shot hole at Worplesdon which measures by the card one hundred and eighty-five yards, and the green rises to something of a plateau. To this hole in the final Miss Park, who looks as if you could blow her away, took a No. 2 iron with no wind to help her. She laid the ball some twelve feet short of the hole and expressed her satisfaction that she had not put her partner over the green.
Well done Jim! In my eyes this is a far better example any we have seen regarding the length of a woman golfer from that era.
-
Patrick,
Have you ever golfed with hickory shafted clubs? How about those of you who are speculating about this; have you ever golfed with hickories? If not you should give it a try. It might be a real eye opener.
1. I think you guys may have hickory confused with willow, because this notion that hickory makes for a limp, whippy, and powerless shaft does not ring true to me. My Wilson "Ted Ray '72" Brassie (circa 1920's) has an original hickory shaft that is much stiffer shaft that the red band True Temper "Step Down" shaft on my Macgregor Ben Hogan 2 Wood (circa 1951.) The stiffness varies, but generally the better hickory shafts are far from whippy.
2. Hickory shafted clubs were much more effective that some here seem to think. In my experience and from what I have read, the hickory shafted drivers were (are) extremely difficult to hit consistently, and they weren't necessarily built for long carries. The Brassie was more of the bread and butter driving club, and it was very possible to carry a tee shot a comparable distance to a circa 1950's (and later) two or three wood.
3. Under calm conditions I can make the carry at CPC 16 with a well struck brassie. And while you might confuse the two of us appearance wise, no one will confuse my golf game with that of Marion Hollins.
-
I thought Marion Hollins hit the shot to the green are on #16 right after her trip to Mew York, which
was when she organized the purchase of the land and helped finalize the design at Merion?
-
Is Mackenzie the only source for the story, or did anyone else independently say the same thing? e.g. I read that Grantland Rice "reported" it, but he may have repeated AM.
-
Bottom line is the argument cannot be proved or disproved so all this thread does is expose those who can make respectful reasoned argument and those who sadly cannot.
-
With all due respect Pat, I think the failure of the argument is Harvie/Ken/Ben/Byron could only hit drivers 220 yards.
I have to believe each of these men in the prime could hit well over 250+ under normal circumstances.
Mike, have you ever played the hole ?
Venturi, Nelson and Ward all confirmed that they hit driver and that Hogan hit a driver.
Pat Burke, a PGA Tour Pro at the times he played the hole indicated that on the four occassions that he's teed off on the hole that he hit driver on three of them. I've hit driver there numerous times. Compare the ball and the equipment circa 1925 to 1956 to 1972 to 1979 to 1982 to present day.
Pat, how can anyone trust what you say, when you continue with inaccuracies like the one above in blue?
Whether Frost's account is true or not seems irrelevent. To cite an example of another great golf shot in history...to set up his famous eagle at the 15th at Augusta, Gene Sarazen (all 5ft 5in of him) reportable hit driver 250 yards in 1935.
Mike, have you played the 15th at ANGC.
Are you aware of the favorable impact of roll, firm fairways and terrain ?
By 1935 Steel shafted clubs were widely in use, which wasn't the case in 1925.
And, the temperature and heaviness of the air at CPC differs radically from that at ANGC.
If Gene could drive the ball 250 yards in 1935, I have to believe an accomplished women golfer who could probably kick his tail in a street fight could manage 200-220.
Why do you equate total yardage with carry ?
The two are quite seperate.
The story may be myth, but I have to believe there were a few women who could carry it 200 yards.
As for your little wager...if you set it up and I get to warm up on holes 1-15, I'm in.
Just make sure you pony up the ante before you tee it up, it may be the most rewarding or the most expensive round of your life
-
With an exhibition of feminine golfing skill such as the Edgewater links will seldom see again, Miss Collett justified her title with a brilliant 38 on the third nine of the scheduled 36-holes with Miss Turpie. That 38 was three under women's par and was made over water-soaked fairways that robbed much of the distance from her shots.........Miss Collett also won the distance driving contest by knocking three golf balls for a total of 659 yards.
That's 219.66 @ Pat ;D on water-soaked fairways no less
Jim,
The tee for that competition was elevated 46 feet above the fairway on very sunny day with virtually no humidity and an average wind velocity at their backs of 12 knots ;D
-
With all due respect Pat, I think the failure of the argument is Harvie/Ken/Ben/Byron could only hit drivers 220 yards.
I have to believe each of these men in the prime could hit well over 250+ under normal circumstances.
Mike, have you ever played the hole ?
Venturi, Nelson and Ward all confirmed that they hit driver and that Hogan hit a driver.
Pat Burke, a PGA Tour Pro at the times he played the hole indicated that on the four occassions that he's teed off on the hole that he hit driver on three of them. I've hit driver there numerous times. Compare the ball and the equipment circa 1925 to 1956 to 1972 to 1979 to 1982 to present day.
Pat, how can anyone trust what you say, when you continue with inaccuracies like the one above in blue?
Inaccurate ? Obviously you either can't read or can't remember what you read.
Here's Pat's post:
Played the 1980 Cal Am at Pebble/Cypress.
Weren't allowed practice rounds, so when I got to 16 tried to hit an easy driver (MacGregor w/keyhole insert btw)
Caught it a little thin, hit a couple feet short.
Went ahead an hit one harder, just off the back. It was cool and into the wind.
Next year, I hit a 3 iron in the center of the green on a cool windless day (60-65 degrees I would guess)
Played AT&T in a gale in 1990 and pummeled the dogwater out of a driver to hit the green (made 5 )
Now go ahead and count em up.
FOUR (4) attempts, with THREE (3) of them with DRIVER
You're perspective has rendered you blind to facts and reason, but, that's nothing new ;D i
Whether Frost's account is true or not seems irrelevent. To cite an example of another great golf shot in history...to set up his famous eagle at the 15th at Augusta, Gene Sarazen (all 5ft 5in of him) reportable hit driver 250 yards in 1935.
Mike, have you played the 15th at ANGC.
Are you aware of the favorable impact of roll, firm fairways and terrain ?
By 1935 Steel shafted clubs were widely in use, which wasn't the case in 1925.
And, the temperature and heaviness of the air at CPC differs radically from that at ANGC.
If Gene could drive the ball 250 yards in 1935, I have to believe an accomplished women golfer who could probably kick his tail in a street fight could manage 200-220.
Why do you equate total yardage with carry ?
The two are quite seperate.
The story may be myth, but I have to believe there were a few women who could carry it 200 yards.
As for your little wager...if you set it up and I get to warm up on holes 1-15, I'm in.
Just make sure you pony up the ante before you tee it up, it may be the most rewarding or the most expensive round of your life
-
The CRUX of the matter is as follows.
If Tommy Naccarato says that there are aliens in Los Angeles, or that someone told him that there are aliens in Los Angeles, the burden of proof IS NOT on others to prove that there aren't aliens in Los Angeles, but, on those making the claim to prove that there are aliens in Los Angeles.
The burden of proof on the alleged shot/s on # 16 at CPC by Marion Hollins is on all those who claim that she made those shots.
Yet, there's not one iota of concrete evidence supporting the alleged shot, only third party hearsay.
NOT ONE EYEWITNESSES.
NOT ONE CONTEMPORANEOUS RECORDING OF THE EVENT
Absent concrete proof of the event, it remains a myth, despite the fact that the circumstances and factors surrounding the alleged event would lead a prudent person to deny or doubt its occurance.
If anyone has any proof of the alleged event, please present it.
Otherwise the alleged event remains a myth, even to all those who just want to argue with me ;D ;D
-
The CRUX of the matter is as follows.
If Tommy Naccarato says that there are aliens in Los Angeles, or that someone told him that there are aliens in Los Angeles, the burden of proof IS NOT on others to prove that there aren't aliens in Los Angeles, but, on those making the claim to prove that there are aliens in Los Angeles.
The burden of proof on the alleged shot/s on # 16 at CPC by Marion Hollins is on all those who claim that she made those shots.
The burden of proof is on those who make the first claim of fact. That was you, Pat.
-
With all due respect Pat, I think the failure of the argument is Harvie/Ken/Ben/Byron could only hit drivers 220 yards.
I have to believe each of these men in the prime could hit well over 250+ under normal circumstances.
Mike, have you ever played the hole ?
Venturi, Nelson and Ward all confirmed that they hit driver and that Hogan hit a driver.
Pat Burke, a PGA Tour Pro at the times he played the hole indicated that on the four occassions that he's teed off on the hole that he hit driver on three of them. I've hit driver there numerous times. Compare the ball and the equipment circa 1925 to 1956 to 1972 to 1979 to 1982 to present day.
Pat, how can anyone trust what you say, when you continue with inaccuracies like the one above in blue?
Inaccurate ? Obviously you either can't read or can't remember what you read.
Here's Pat's post:
Played the 1980 Cal Am at Pebble/Cypress.
Weren't allowed practice rounds, so when I got to 16 tried to hit an easy driver (MacGregor w/keyhole insert btw)
Caught it a little thin, hit a couple feet short.
Went ahead an hit one harder, just off the back. It was cool and into the wind.
Next year, I hit a 3 iron in the center of the green on a cool windless day (60-65 degrees I would guess)
Played AT&T in a gale in 1990 and pummeled the dogwater out of a driver to hit the green (made 5 )
Now go ahead and count em up.
FOUR (4) attempts, with THREE (3) of them with DRIVER
You're perspective has rendered you blind to facts and reason, but, that's nothing new ;D i
You keep stating he accomplished these as a PGA tour pro. However, the only one done as a PGA Tour pro was the driver into the gale.
The other three attempts were at the California Amateur. Unless they let PGA Tour pros play in the California Amateur, you have been mis-stating the result from the beginning by stating they were performed by a PGA Tour pro and using his PGA Tour driving distances to back up your argument.
Now, would be the appropriate time for an apology.
-
The CRUX of the matter is as follows.
If Tommy Naccarato says that there are aliens in Los Angeles, or that someone told him that there are aliens in Los Angeles, the burden of proof IS NOT on others to prove that there aren't aliens in Los Angeles, but, on those making the claim to prove that there are aliens in Los Angeles.
The burden of proof on the alleged shot/s on # 16 at CPC by Marion Hollins is on all those who claim that she made those shots.
The burden of proof is on those who make the first claim of fact. That was you, Pat.
Alex, how so? The first claim of fact is that Marion made the carry.
-
Garland,
You're getting so desperate, you're being foolish.
Did Pat suddenly experience a quantum leap in his talent, his ability to play golf the day he got his PGA Tour card ?
Who would you say was a better golfer, a better striker of the ball, Pat Burke or Marion Hollins ?
Also, you have failed to answer a question I've asked you repeatedly.
HAVE YOU EVER PLAYED THE 16TH HOLE AT CPC ?
A simple "yes" or "no" will suffice.
-
The CRUX of the matter is as follows.
If Tommy Naccarato says that there are aliens in Los Angeles, or that someone told him that there are aliens in Los Angeles, the burden of proof IS NOT on others to prove that there aren't aliens in Los Angeles, but, on those making the claim to prove that there are aliens in Los Angeles.
The burden of proof on the alleged shot/s on # 16 at CPC by Marion Hollins is on all those who claim that she made those shots.
The burden of proof is on those who make the first claim of fact. That was you, Pat.
Alex, how so? The first claim of fact is that Marion made the carry.
No one has said that she definitely did make the carry Jim, certainly not I. The story no doubt says she did, but Pat was the one who said that she could not have made the carry. The only person trying to PROVE anything on here is Pat.
-
Garland,
You're getting so desperate, you're being foolish.
Did Pat suddenly experience a quantum leap in his talent, his ability to play golf the day he got his PGA Tour card ?
Who would you say was a better golfer, a better striker of the ball, Pat Burke or Marion Hollins ?
Also, you have failed to answer a question I've asked you repeatedly.
HAVE YOU EVER PLAYED THE 16TH HOLE AT CPC ?
A simple "yes" or "no" will suffice.
If my recollection serves me right, Mr. Burke has stated on this website that he was a short knocker when he made it onto the PGA Tour, at which point he made a concerted (and successful) effort to increase his distance. So, yes his ability increased after he got his PGA Tour card.
Since I have seen neither play, I have no idea who would be the better ball striker. However, your arguments would tend to say Marion Hollins was the better ball striker, because she made her significant accomplishment with (according to you) vastly inferior equipment.
I have answered your question about playing the 16th at CPC, it just your memory fails you in recalling the answer.
-
Whether someone has played a hole or no is irrelevent. Most of you probaby haven't played the 460 yard 3th at Deal. I've hit 4 iron, 9 iron and driver, 3 wood, 6 iron all in the summer. Am I short or long? Is the hole difficult?
-
It also seems to me that all the discussion of the shafts is mostly irrelevant. The shaft is just a medium for delivering the club head to the ball. It does not give any kick to the ball. The most relevant factors would seem to be the speed of the clubhead, and the COR of the ball and clubhead, and perhaps ball spin.
-
Patrick, I've asked you numerous times where you got your Marion Hollins story you mention at the beginning of this thread.
The legend goes on to say that Marion Hollins, to prove her point that the hole could be a par 3, teed up three balls from a spot 220 yards from the center of the green and landed each one in the middle of what would become the green.
You have consistently refused to answer. I guess I'll have to guess.
If it came from your own imagination then little wonder you would doubt your own made-up story. If you had told us you just made up a story about Hollins and don't believe your own story I think this thread would have died a long time ago since most of us would have joined you in doubting a story you just created. Since you often make up my position because it is easier for you to argue against than my real opinion, I tend to believe your Hollins story comes from your own imagination. It is much easier to debunk a story you yourself made up than anything you can't control.
If the story came from Mark Frost's book then many of us who know Frost's work would have agreed with you. He is an author who has proven time and time again he can't be trusted. Granted he gets some things right, but it is too much work to do your own verification of everything he writes. Part of being a historian is learning who you can trust and who you can't. You can't verify everything you read so you learn to trust people who tell you were they get information until you have reason to not trust them.
If you took Outerbridge's story and decided to embellish it on your own then we have two sources we can't really trust.
I take some of the blame for some of this. When you mentioned the Hollins story I didn't read closely enough and assumed you were repeating the story in MacKenzie's book. Your story has no relationship to the one in MacKenzie's book so could not have come from there. I have no reason to doubt the story in MacKenzie's book. Let me repeat -- this doesn't mean I am sure MacKenzie is telling the truth, I just haven't seen any reason to doubt his story.
So once again, where did the above Marion Hollins story come from?
Cheers,
Dan King
I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you.
--Friedrich Nietzsche
-
Alex, how so? The first claim of fact is that Marion made the carry.
Jim,
Read the thread. No-one has claimed that Hollins definitely made the shot. Pat has claimed it wasimpossible for her to do so. He has failed to prove it and the burden of proof is on him. I think you have bought a Mucci dummy.
-
Garland Bayley writes:
It also seems to me that all the discussion of the shafts is mostly irrelevant. The shaft is just a medium for delivering the club head to the ball. It does not give any kick to the ball. The most relevant factors would seem to be the speed of the clubhead, and the COR of the ball and clubhead, and perhaps ball spin.
According to Bernard Darwin in Golf Between Two Wars the short hitters were much quicker to make the switch to steel than the long hitters. The long hitters were happy with the equipment they had and took much longer to switch. Bobby Jones won his four championships in 1930 using equipment with hickory shafts -- despite both the USGA and R&A legalizing steel shafts by then.
The more pertinent part of the story is we can be fairly certain Hollins hit the 1.62 ball and the four golfers in 1956 hit the 1.68 ball. In general the 1.62 ball was better for hitting distance, the 1.68 ball better for accuracy.
Cheers,
Dan King
History is the study of lies, anyway, because no witness ever recalls events with total accuracy, not even eyewitnesses.
--Nancy Pickard
-
More than anything Pat just loves a fight, reminds me of...
http://tiny.cc/gqfpc
relevant part is 2 mins in.
-
Pat,
I seem to remember back in 1997 that Mhari McKay, then a student at Stanford, not only hit the green with a three wood but had a hole in one. Miss McKay stands all of five foot six, a mere stripling compared to Hollins. Yes, she probably did use a steel or graphite shafted club and possibly a hot ball, but she did something that your pros did in 1956, only better. You can check this out by calling the CPC Golf Shop at 831-624-2223.
Bob
-
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Just because there are no eyewitnesses alive today, nor eyewitness accounts, does not mean that Hollins did not make the shot and it is automatically a myth. Hollins certainly must have told Mackenzie about it when he and she were planning the course after Raynor's death. therefore the account is second hand, but in my view reliable as Mac got it from the horse's mouth so to speak.
pat started the thread with the aim of debunking what he said was a myth. So the onus is on him to disprove it. Again, I have seen no-one here claim she categorically did it. Like I said before, I believe she did. Do I know she did? No I do not. Pretty clear.
-
Pat,
I seem to remember back in 1997 that Mhari McKay, then a student at Stanford, not only hit the green with a three wood but had a hole in one. Miss McKay stands all of five foot six, a mere stripling compared to Hollins. Yes, she probably did use a steel or graphite shafted club and possibly a hot ball, but she did something that your pros did in 1956, only better. You can check this out by calling the CPC Golf Shop at 831-624-2223.
Bob
Mhari is my best friend's cousin, and I have talked to her about this (out of jealousy!). I have also played with her, and she is far from a long hitter.
I have been fortunate enough to play the hole twice, and have parred it twice. First time I hit 3 hybrid, second time 2 hybrid.
I'm not really bothered if Ms Hollins managed the carry or not. I think she could well have been able to, but that doesn't particularly matter.
I think it's a romantic story and one which adds to the allure of the hole (and puts some more pressure on Male golfers when they play there!).
I am just incredibly thankful the hole is there and is how it is. It is golfing heaven.
-
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Just because there are no eyewitnesses alive today,
I NEVER asked that any eyewitness be alive today.
I just asked for anyone to identify one eyewitness.
nor eyewitness accounts, does not mean that Hollins did not make the shot and it is automatically a myth.
Of course it does/is.
If a statement or event can't be verified, if there's no eyewitness or eyewitness account, then you can't accept romantic notions/legends as having occured.
Hollins certainly must have told Mackenzie about it when he and she were planning the course after Raynor's death.
That's nonsense, and is solely based on your acceptance that the event actually occured.
If it didn't occur, where did MacKenzie get his information from ?
therefore the account is second hand, but in my view reliable as Mac got it from the horse's mouth so to speak.
That's UNVERIFIED speculation and wishful thinking on your part
pat started the thread with the aim of debunking what he said was a myth. So the onus is on him to disprove it. Again, I have seen no-one here claim she categorically did it. Like I said before, I believe she did. Do I know she did? No I do not. Pretty clear.
When you examine the circumstances, I don't see how a prudent individual could accept the alleged event as factual.
I'm hoping to have more evidence to support my claim shortly
-
Tom Bikert, Bob Huntley, Dan King,
You continue to present modern day examples of golfers reaching the green.
But, they're doing so with modern day equipment, not equipment circa 1925 or earlier.
Dan King,
The 1.62 ball did not go further downwind.
It's advantage was into the wind or with crossing winds in your face.
I'm hoping to have more info on this in the next few days.
-
Tom Bikert, Bob Huntley, Dan King,
You continue to present modern day examples of golfers reaching the green.
But, they're doing so with modern day equipment, not equipment circa 1925 or earlier.
Dan King,
The 1.62 ball did not go further downwind.
It's advantage was into the wind or with crossing winds in your face.
I'm hoping to have more info on this in the next few days.
So are we.
-
Patrick_Mucci writes:
Dan King,
The 1.62 ball did not go further downwind.
It's advantage was into the wind or with crossing winds in your face.
Patrick, I'm through arguing with your imagination.
Cheers,
Dan King
Examinations are formidable even to the best prepared, for the greatest fool may ask more than the wisest man can answer.
--Charles Caleb Colton
-
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Just because there are no eyewitnesses alive today, nor eyewitness accounts, does not mean that Hollins did not make the shot and it is automatically a myth. Hollins certainly must have told Mackenzie about it when he and she were planning the course after Raynor's death. therefore the account is second hand, but in my view reliable as Mac got it from the horse's mouth so to speak.
Neil,
MacKenzie's account that you posted is even harder to believe.
He stated that during her conversation with Raynor she dropped a ball down, and hit a Brassie (2-wood) 230 yards to the center of the green site.
NO tee, just plopped the ball down and hit it 230 to the center of the current green.
No warm up, just plopped the ball down and hit it 230 to the center of the current green
How do you account for her dropping a ball down in an area NOT prepared for golf, just raw land/grass/sand
pat started the thread with the aim of debunking what he said was a myth. So the onus is on him to disprove it.
Not reallly.
All I have to do is get acknowledgement that there's NO eyewitness or eyewitness account that the event took place.
Absent that certification, by definition, it's a myth, just romantic folk lore.
"Webster's New World College Dictionary" defines the word "myth"
"A traditional story of unknown authorship,"
"Any fictitious story or UNSCIENTIFIC ACCOUNT, THEORY, BELIEF
Absent concrete evidence, By definition, the alleged event involving Marion Hollins is a myth.
Sorry to burst your bubble fellows ;D ;D
-
Patrick_Mucci writes:
MacKenzie's account that you posted is even harder to believe.
He stated that during her conversation with Raynor she dropped a ball down, and hit a Brassie (2-wood) 230 yards to the center of the green site.
NO tee, just plopped the ball down and hit it 230 to the center of the current green.
No warm up, just plopped the ball down and hit it 230 to the center of the current green
How do you account for her dropping a ball down in an area NOT prepared for golf, just raw land/grass/sand
Why would you lie about what MacKenzie wrote when so many of us have a copy of the book?
I posted this earlier in the thread:
"It was suggested to her by the late Seth Raynor that it was a pity the carry over the ocean was too long to enable a hole to be designed on this particular site. Miss Hollins said she did not think it was an impossible carry. She then teed up a ball and drove to the middle of the site of the suggested green."
I know, your imaginary version is much easier to debunk, but still why such an obvious lie?
Cheers,
Dan King
Let us be thankful for the fools. But for them the rest of us could not succeed.
--Mark Twain
-
Patrick Mucci writes:
Dan King,
You continue to present modern day examples of golfers reaching the green.
But, they're doing so with modern day equipment, not equipment circa 1925 or earlier.
Yet again, more "facts" from the fertile imagination of Patrick Mucci.
I know I'm wasting keystrokes, but care to point to a post I made where I used modern day examples of golfers reaching the green?
Cheers,
Dan King
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.
--Bertrand Russell
-
Patrick,
It seems that most of the posters here are biased in that they contain knowledge from having played Cypress Point, read various accounts about players at Cypress Point, read accounts of the distances women hit the ball in the 1920s and read accounts on how far Marion Hollins hit the ball.
I have done none of these things and as such I am one of the few posters in this thread who can offer an unbiased and therefore accurate commentary on the issue.
The story of Marion Hollins hitting a shot to the future location of the 16th green is definitely (100%) a myth, with no factual basis whatsoever.
-
Patrick,
This is really a very simple matter. All you have to say is "Can anyone say that Marion Hollins hit that shot without a shadow of doubt?"
The jury would have to come in without convicting Marion of having hit that shot.
It is all your embellishments of "I can barely make the shot with modern equipment, so Marion couldn't have made the shot" where you get in trouble. Since we are all confident Marion could have whipped you at golf, your embellishments don't stand a chance with this jury.
-
Patrick,
The story of Marion Hollins hitting a shot to the future location of the 16th green is definitely (100%) a myth, with no factual basis whatsoever.
Mike,
I really have no dog in this scrap but pray tell, how did you arrive at this conclusion?
Bob
-
Dan,
I was addressing the three of you and others in general.
But, getting back to Marion, Raynor died in January of 1926.
Allegedlly he was in Hawaii prior to his death.
Steel shafts were approved for competitions by the USGA in 1925, probably March, but, I'll know the exact date shortly.
So, we can narrow down the possible dates that the alleged event took place, if steel shafts were employed.
It would appear that it was in 1925 or earlier.
If Marion used a metal shaft for the alleged event, it would have been after the USGA meeting approving them for play, probably March of 1925.
So, now we just have to track Raynor's and Hollins's whereabouts in 1925 and see when they intersect.
Then we can match the prevailing wind directions, which appear below, to assist us in analyzing the alleged shot/s
J F M A M J J A S O N D
ESE ESE W WNW W W W W W W ESE ESE
It would also help if we could get an aerial of the land in 1924 & 1925 so that we could see exactly what the site looked like.
If it was overgrown with trees and brush, then, I thnk even you would concede that the alleged event is a myth ;D
-
Garland,
Please feel free to initiate a thread and phrase it as you wish.
-
The story of Marion Hollins hitting a shot to the future location of the 16th green is definitely (100%) a myth, with no factual basis whatsoever.
I really have no dog in this scrap but pray tell, how did you arrive at this conclusion?
Bob,
Two years ago I made a decision to accept that everything that Pat Mucci says is correct. I cannot tell you how much less stressful my life has been since. My blood pressure is lower, my headaches have gone away and I have more time to spend with my family.
He hasn't been wrong in 23,000 posts, why would he be wrong now? That's my view and I am sticking to it. Have a great day! :D
-
Before this thread, I thought she made the shot - because I thought Mackenzie witnessed it. Now I think of it as urban legend. Possible, intriguing, a great story... but without hard facts, unknowable.
More interesting to me now is who conceived the hole. Mackenzie says he didn't. Was it Marion? Raynor? Their collaboration? Someone else?
It also resurrects the question of how much of CPC is original Mac, and how much is Raynor. It sure would be fascinating to see Raynor's routing.
-
Patrick_Mucci writes:
But, getting back to Marion, Raynor died in January of 1926.
Allegedlly he was in Hawaii prior to his death.
He follows that with more and more made up facts.
Cheers,
Dan King
You can fool too many of the people too much of the time.
--James Thurber
-
Patrick_Mucci writes:
But, getting back to Marion, Raynor died in January of 1926.
Allegedlly he was in Hawaii prior to his death.
He follows that with more and more made up facts.
Dan, I didn't make that up, it was cited in a response to you in an earlier reply.
Your memory is failing
Cheers,
Dan King
You can fool too many of the people too much of the time.
--James Thurber
-
Patrick_Mucci writes:
Dan, I didn't make that up, it was cited in a response to you in an earlier reply.
Your memory is failing
Patrick posts more made up "facts."
It's interesting I started in on this thread because of Mark Frost. Mucci and Frost have the same problem of making up facts to fit their narrative. It's possible they both occasionally get something right, but that has more to do with the law of averages than anything else.
Cheers,
Dan King
If you are a dreamer, come in. If you are a dreamer, a wisher, a liar, a hoper, a prayer, a magic-bean-buyer. If you're a pretender, come sit by my fire, for we have some flax-golden tales to spin. Come in! Come in!
--Shel Silverstein
-
So, we can narrow down the possible dates that the alleged event took place, if steel shafts were employed.
Why in the world would a steel shaft have been needed?
-
Patrick_Mucci writes:
Dan, I didn't make that up, it was cited in a response to you in an earlier reply.
Your memory is failing
Patrick posts more made up "facts."
It's interesting I started in on this thread because of Mark Frost. Mucci and Frost have the same problem of making up facts to fit their narrative. It's possible they both occasionally get something right, but that has more to do with the law of averages than anything else.
Dan, Jim Nugent posted that in reply # 165.
Since you don't recall it, I"ve quoted it below
Re: Cypress Point - The Marion Hollins's shots on the 16th
« Reply #165 on: October 16, 2010, 05:01:39 PM » Quote
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Raynor died January 23, 1926. The chronology I just read of his last days says he spent time in Hawaii, designing two courses there. He got very sick, came back to the mainland and immediately headed to Palm Springs. That is where he died.
So if Marion made the shot in front of Raynor, it likely happened earlier than 1926.
Neil, I thought before this thread that Mac saw Hollins hit the shot. That's why I took it as true: the alternative is that he lied. The fact that AM didn't see the shot, and only heard the story (who knows from whom?), means it carries a lot less weight for me.
Again we don't need Frost anymore. Ward and Venturi both say they hit driver. Venturi said all four hit driver.
I think Jim's error is that he died in Palm Beach, not Palm Springs
-
So, we can narrow down the possible dates that the alleged event took place, if steel shafts were employed.
Why in the world would a steel shaft have been needed?
Kevin,
Part of the discussion dealt with the efficiency of the equipment in 1925.
Some seemed to think that the shot was more possible with steel than hickory.
The use of hickory would seem to make the shot less likely since steel performs better than hickory and would produce better results.
Others intimate that she used a graphite shafted 48 inch driver. ;D
-
Patrick Mucci writes:
Dan, Jim Nugent posted that in reply # 165.
Since you don't recall it, I"ve quoted it below
So you backed up one of some 20 lies you've posted in this thread. One out of 20 is still well below the Mendoza Line and leaves you still in the company of Mark Frost.
Cheers,
Dan King
No man has a good enough memory to make a successful liar.
--Abraham Lincoln
-
Pat
That account of Marion plopping a ball down and hitting it 230 yards with her brassie was just a random account of the story I grabbed off the internet. It is NOT Mackenzie's account from Spirit of St Andrews. I hope I have made that clear.
You still have never answered my oft repeated question to you - is the account you quote of her hitting three balls come from Frost? A straight answer would be appreciated.
While you seem very happy to call this a myth I think story is more appropriate. And where do you think Mackenzie got the story from if not from Hollins herself???
1. I do not believe Mac made the story up, he had nothing to gain personally from doing that.
2. If he didn't make the story up, then who told him the story do you think? If you do not think the most likely source was Hollins herself, then I can only think you are on some strong medications.
3. Spirit of St Andrews was published in 1995 after Ray Haddock discovered the manuscript. Prior to this, Mackenzie's acccount was unknown. However, the story of Hollins' feat was known prior to 1995 - in April 1977 the USGA Golf Journal ran a story on Mackenzie that stated:
"Marion Hollins, had walked the land with him when he was in the process of determining where the holes should be. When she suggested what is now the location of the 16th, he asked her to play a trial tee shot. The green now rests where her ball landed."
So the story, by 1977 at least, had Mac there witnessing the shot, whereas Mac's own account said she did it with Raynor, and not him. I looked through some of my golf books but could not find any earlier accounts.
As I said before, I cannot prove she did the feat - but then again you can't prove she didn't either!
At some point the back and forth becomes futile and I think I am nearly over that particular carry! And it has seemed longer than 220 yards too!
-
I have not read the last few pages of this thread which I have missed over the last few days. The reason is the Pat M's selective answers. He overlooks replying to questions which he can't answer without contadicting his own theory. It is a shame that such a knowledgable person should act in this slightly blinkered manner :(
Pat, the facts are:
1. That in 1949 Hogan, by his own admission, was hitting the driver an average of 265 yards.
2. When the match was played it was not so warm
Also does it say anywhere they all hit the driver full tilt? And finally Hollins was more than capable of hitting the ball 200+ and maybe she had a helping wind.
Jon
-
Pat
That account of Marion plopping a ball down and hitting it 230 yards with her brassie was just a random account of the story I grabbed off the internet. It is NOT Mackenzie's account from Spirit of St Andrews. I hope I have made that clear.
Nonetheless, it's another account that conflicts with the others, leading me to doubt any and all of them.
You still have never answered my oft repeated question to you - is the account you quote of her hitting three balls come from Frost? A straight answer would be appreciated.
Yes
While you seem very happy to call this a myth I think story is more appropriate.
And where do you think Mackenzie got the story from if not from Hollins herself???
He could have gotten it from any number of sources, employees, residents, etc., etc..
1. I do not believe Mac made the story up, he had nothing to gain personally from doing that.
Noone ever said he made it up except you.
2. If he didn't make the story up, then who told him the story do you think? If you do not think the most likely source was Hollins herself, then I can only think you are on some strong medications.
Any number of people could have told him the story, employees, residents, other golfers, etc., etc..
3. Spirit of St Andrews was published in 1995 after Ray Haddock discovered the manuscript. Prior to this, Mackenzie's acccount was unknown. However, the story of Hollins' feat was known prior to 1995 - in April 1977 the USGA Golf Journal ran a story on Mackenzie that stated:
"Marion Hollins, had walked the land with him when he was in the process of determining where the holes should be. When she suggested what is now the location of the 16th, he asked her to play a trial tee shot. The green now rests where her ball landed."
This is JUST a story told by a third person, NOT MacKenzie.
Who is the author of the article ?
And, the interesting thing about that story is that it doesn't say that she hit the shot from 220-230, which is a critical element in the myth.
So the story, by 1977 at least, had Mac there witnessing the shot, whereas Mac's own account said she did it with Raynor, and not him. I looked through some of my golf books but could not find any earlier accounts.
So, the STORY is INCORRECT, FALSE
Then why would you rely upon it ?
As I said before, I cannot prove she did the feat - but then again you can't prove she didn't either!
Please see the definition of the word "MYTH"
Also, please see my reference to Tommy Naccarato and Aliens in LA.
For an event to be factual there has to be substantive concrete evidence that it occured, absent that evidence, the alleged event remains a myth, despite your wishful thinking
At some point the back and forth becomes futile and I think I am nearly over that particular carry! And it has seemed longer than 220 yards too!
That's up to you.
-
I have not read the last few pages of this thread which I have missed over the last few days. The reason is the Pat M's selective answers. He overlooks replying to questions which he can't answer without contadicting his own theory. It is a shame that such a knowledgable person should act in this slightly blinkered manner :(
Pat, the facts are:
1. That in 1949 Hogan, by his own admission, was hitting the driver an average of 265 yards.
John, that includes ROLL. And, I bet he wasn't hitting it that far in dense, cooler ocean air.
The FACTS are that Harvie Ward and Venturi confirmed that Hogan hit a driver, SHORT, so why are you inserting totally irrelevant
elements into the discussion. What part of the confirmation by Ward and Venturi don't you get ?
2. When the match was played it was not so warm
I already stated that the temperature was around 62-65 degrees, sweater weather.
What does that have to do with the FACT that Hogan hit driver that day ?
Also does it say anywhere they all hit the driver full tilt?
He came up short. If he came up a little shorter, he'd be in the ocean, something that I"m sure he wanted to avoid.
All the other golfers also hit driver.
If you know anything about the hole, you know one thing, you don't want to come up short.
Your want to ERR on the LONG side.
Have you ever played the hole ?
And finally Hollins was more than capable of hitting the ball 200+ and maybe she had a helping wind.
So am I and so is Pat Burke a former PGA Tour Pro, but, we both had to hit driver and that was with modern balls and equipment.
Now do you get it ?
-
Patrick Mucci writes:
Dan, Jim Nugent posted that in reply # 165.
Since you don't recall it, I"ve quoted it below
So you backed up one of some 20 lies you've posted in this thread.
I didn't back it up, I just proved that you were wrong, that you were lying.
I haven't lied once during this thread, you just get confused when I use the word "you" in the royal sense.
For you to say that you're neutral on the issue is preposterous.
You've not applied the same standards to disproving Hollins's alleged event that you applied to disproving Hogan's, Nelson's, Venturi's and Ward's events
One out of 20 is still well below the Mendoza Line and leaves you still in the company of Mark Frost.
Would you cite the other 19 lies you allege that I've made
I suspect that your statement is a deliberate lie
-
So Patrick finally admits he got his Marion Hollins story from Mark Frost. I agree with you Patrick, there is a good chance Frost's story is fabricated, much like many of Frost's stories. I've wasted numerous posts assuming you were referring to the MacKenzie story. It has nothing to do with 1956 or modern swings, or balls or equipment. It has to do with Frost makes up stuff.
Patrick_Mucci writes:
For you to say that you're neutral on the issue is preposterous.
You've not applied the same standards to disproving Hollins's alleged event that you applied to disproving Hogan's, Nelson's, Venturi's and Ward's events
I haven't applied the same standards to disprove the Kennedy assassination either. Must be because I'm not neutral on the Kennedy assassination.
I agree with you Patrick, Frost more than likely made up the story about Hollins. Now how come you do not apply the same standards you used to disprove the Frost version to disprove the real MacKenzie version? Not your made up MacKenzie version but the one in the Spirit of St. Andrews. The one earlier you mentioned in this thread that is on page 135.
Patrick Mucci writes in Post No. 37:
He recounts the event with Raynor on page 135 of TSOSA, he didn't witness the alleged event, and only recounts.
So why did you later lie about what MacKenzie wrote?
Cheers,
Dan King
America is a vast conspiracy to make you happy.
--John Updike
-
Someone a few pages back posted they currently reside in Ms. Hollin's former residence and she still occasionally pops in for a visit. lets just settle this and have the gentleman ask her the next time she appears.
-
Pat -
In a 2006 discussion of how far Bob Jones could carry the golf ball, you wrote -
"The Laws of Physics, not hearsay and/or myths determines carry."
In this discussion you wrote
"For an event to be factual there has to be substantive concrete evidence that it occured, absent that evidence, the alleged event remains a myth."
Can you explain how your thinking has changed over the years, how you made the switch from physics-based evidence to more of a witness-based standard of proof? Thanks.
-
Just for the heck of it, here is an old photo I found labeled Miss Marion Hollins. This a cropped and reduced version of the original.
(http://public.blu.livefilestore.com/y1pp0vxIxQ0J7NggOWH2TUSgNjE7FNYhm5gNkR7sdFENuSgriVMz0t_i8uNJsO9-txXInU_Y39gJyG7bgcN7duMlA/Miss%20Marion%20Hollins.jpg?psid=1)
-
Michael Moore,
There's no conflict in those statements, only in your mind.
-
Those statements do not conflict, but it seems the ideology behind them does. My two cents. :)
Anyway, Pat, in your thread regarding the Raynor routing it seems your premise there offers the same idea as on here, yet you seem to be leaning in the opposite direction. Why?
Here you cited a lack of first-hand documentation, though there is second-hand, as the cause of your doubt of Ms. Hollins shot.
There you cite second-hand documentation and circumstantial evidence as the prompt for discussing the possibility of CPC's Raynor influences.
This is not an attack, but I am curious why you have seemingly conflicting viewpoints. Could you share your thoughts about?
-
I have not read the last few pages of this thread which I have missed over the last few days. The reason is the Pat M's selective answers. He overlooks replying to questions which he can't answer without contadicting his own theory. It is a shame that such a knowledgable person should act in this slightly blinkered manner :(
Pat, the facts are:
1. That in 1949 Hogan, by his own admission, was hitting the driver an average of 265 yards.
John, that includes ROLL. And, I bet he wasn't hitting it that far in dense, cooler ocean air.
The FACTS are that Harvie Ward and Venturi confirmed that Hogan hit a driver, SHORT, so why are you inserting totally irrelevant
elements into the discussion. What part of the confirmation by Ward and Venturi don't you get ?
Yes Patrik ;) that would include roll but so would his shot on this particular day. Lets assume as you seem to, that Hogan hit it pretty full. Why would it be so short, head wind maybe?. Also, do Ward and Venturi say Hogan or any of the group hit their teeshots full bore? Do we have a date for the supposed Hollin's shot? Maybe this was at a warmer time of year
2. When the match was played it was not so warm
I already stated that the temperature was around 62-65 degrees, sweater weather.
What does that have to do with the FACT that Hogan hit driver that day ?Cooler weather, more clothing and so less freedom of movement hence shorter shot, maybe!!!
Also does it say anywhere they all hit the driver full tilt?
He came up short. If he came up a little shorter, he'd be in the ocean, something that I"m sure he wanted to avoid.
All the other golfers also hit driver.
If you know anything about the hole, you know one thing, you don't want to come up short.
Your want to ERR on the LONG side.Maybe he just misjudged or even mishit his shot slightly
Have you ever played the hole ?No, but I bet you didn't back in the 1920's so you cannot judge the Hollin's shot any better than the rest of us.
And finally Hollins was more than capable of hitting the ball 200+ and maybe she had a helping wind.
So am I and so is Pat Burke a former PGA Tour Pro, but, we both had to hit driver and that was with modern balls and equipment.
Now do you get it ?Pat, are you suggesting that a modern tour pro only hits the ball 220 yards. This is where I have a real problem with your take on things. Modern pro's hit the ball much futher than this even without roll. The only reasons I can think of for a modern tour pro to hit the ball so short with a full blooded driver are: into a strong head wind or massive difference in elevation. Or do you expect anyone to take you seriously in stating this?
Jon
-
Jon Wiggett writes:
Or do you expect anyone to take you seriously in stating this?
Pat used unreliable sources and said something really stupid at the beginning of this thread. Now he is stuck defending his indefensible position. It leads him to say stuff that leaves many scratching their head wondering what Pat has been smoking.
He expects us to take him seriously and he just can't figure out why we are all giggling at him.
Cheers,
Dan King
It is my opinion that there is no woman in the country who could defeat Miss Hollins if she could be satisfied playing a woman's game. [However] if she ever played safe in her life I was not there to see it and I have never heard of anyone who was.
--Ann Trabue, reporting on the 1932 Pebble Beach Tournament
-
SURPRISE.
All of you morons, cretins, blind followers, what do you say now ?
Neil Crafter has posted MacKenzie's plan from 1926 clearly indicating that the 16th hole is 200 yards from the back tee, NOT 220 or 230.
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t65/Saabman2005/CypressPointoverallplan1926.jpg)
Appologies will be graciously accepted. ;D
-
I have not read the last few pages of this thread which I have missed over the last few days. The reason is the Pat M's selective answers. He overlooks replying to questions which he can't answer without contadicting his own theory. It is a shame that such a knowledgable person should act in this slightly blinkered manner :(
Pat, the facts are:
1. That in 1949 Hogan, by his own admission, was hitting the driver an average of 265 yards.
John, that includes ROLL. And, I bet he wasn't hitting it that far in dense, cooler ocean air.
The FACTS are that Harvie Ward and Venturi confirmed that Hogan hit a driver, SHORT, so why are you inserting totally irrelevant
elements into the discussion. What part of the confirmation by Ward and Venturi don't you get ?
Yes Patrik ;) that would include roll but so would his shot on this particular day. Lets assume as you seem to, that Hogan hit it pretty full. Why would it be so short, head wind maybe?. Also, do Ward and Venturi say Hogan or any of the group hit their teeshots full bore? Do we have a date for the supposed Hollin's shot? Maybe this was at a warmer time of yearJon, when it's seasonably warmer the prevailing winds blow out of the west, into the golfer's face.
So you can nix that theory
Harvie Ward indicated that he didn't challenge the tee shot to the green because it was too difficult and the only reason he hit driver that day was because Hogan hit driver. Why do you keep denying and questioning facts that have been clearly established ?
Have you ever played the hole . They ALL hit driver to the green.
Venturi told me he hit driver, Venturi and Ward told Jeff that they both hit driver as did Hogan
2. When the match was played it was not so warm
I already stated that the temperature was around 62-65 degrees, sweater weather.
What does that have to do with the FACT that Hogan hit driver that day ?Cooler weather, more clothing and so less freedom of movement hence shorter shot, maybe!!!
Jon 62-65 is hardly cool weather at CPC.
Accounts indicate that some were wearing sweaters, hardly restrictive clothing
Also does it say anywhere they all hit the driver full tilt?
He came up short. If he came up a little shorter, he'd be in the ocean, something that I"m sure he wanted to avoid.
All the other golfers also hit driver.
If you know anything about the hole, you know one thing, you don't want to come up short.
Your want to ERR on the LONG side.Maybe he just misjudged or even mishit his shot slightly
Yeah Jon, Hogan who had played the course before , armed with a good caddy, would misjudge the shot.
Maybe you would, but Hogan wouldn't, the same goes for Ward, Venturi and Nelson, who ALL hit driver.
Have you ever played the hole ?No, but I bet you didn't back in the 1920's so you cannot judge the Hollin's shot any better than the rest of us.
Jon, that's really a dumb remark, one you wouldn't make if you had played the hole
And finally Hollins was more than capable of hitting the ball 200+ and maybe she had a helping wind.
So am I and so is Pat Burke a former PGA Tour Pro, but, we both had to hit driver and that was with modern balls and equipment.
Now do you get it ?Pat, are you suggesting that a modern tour pro only hits the ball 220 yards.
Are you calling Pat Burke a liar.
He told you that out of four occassions, three times he hit driver.
I told you that I've hit driver on several occassions.
Why don't you get it ?
I know why, because you're NOT familiar with the hole and the conditions of play
This is where I have a real problem with your take on things. Modern pro's hit the ball much futher than this even without roll. The only reasons I can think of for a modern tour pro to hit the ball so short with a full blooded driver are: into a strong head wind or massive difference in elevation. Or do you expect anyone to take you seriously in stating this?[/color]
Jon, the wind that day, from a nearby weather station, was at 1.8 knots, hardly a gale.
Take me seriously ?
Ward and Venturi stated that they hit driver as did Hogan.
Those guys were there, they know what they hit and what the others hit.
Why do you deny the facts ?
Are you calling Venturi, Ward, jeff, myself and others liars ?
And now we have some recently discovered facts.
The hole wasn't 220 or 230 yards, it was 200 yards in 1926.
That changes things a bit doesn't it.
Jon
-
Thanks Neil.
Here is the 1926 plan for Cypress Point, as drawn up by San Francisco artist Albert Darrows, based upon a sketch that Mackenzie provided him with. I expect the plan came out of Mackenzie's first visit to the US and to Cypress in Jan to March 1926.
How it differs from Raynor's plan is very hard to say, but as Hollins was there with both of them, its fair to say she had her influence, so some holes would be routed the same. And the final on the ground routing differed from this routing too.
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t65/Saabman2005/CypressPointoverallplan1926.jpg)
As for 16, here's an enlargement showing the hole as Mackenzie first sketched it. Please note the rear tee that is shown giving the dotted alternative line of play as a two shot hole. The card on this plan shows the hole as a 200 yarder, so perhaps when Hollins made her shot it was not as long a carry from the rear tee today. From what I have read, Mackenzie was not all that confident about the hole as a par three, and in an early article on the course, published in The Fairway magazine in November 1928 (and Golf Illustrated UK) he lists the hole with a championship length of 350 yards, compared to the regular length of 240 yards. Geoff S in his book suggests that Mac was keeping his options open, and if play as a long par 3 was too problematic he would then lengthen the hole to a two shotter by building that championship tee so that the hole could play at 350 - presumably there was enough space between 15 and 16 to allow for that.
So, Mac's first iteration for 16 was a shorter hole, some 40 yards shorter in fact. And Hollins shot across the chasm may well have been played from ahead of where the current back tee sits, making the carry less that 200 yards.
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t65/Saabman2005/CypressPoint16plan1926.jpg)
-
SURPRISE.
All of you morons, cretins, blind followers, what do you say now ?
Neil Crafter has posted MacKenzie's plan from 1926 clearly indicating that the 16th hole is 200 yards from the back tee, NOT 220 or 230.
I can't speak for all of us morons, cretins, and blind followers, but as for what this particular moron-cretin-blind follower thinks now, I think that it is a shame you didn't read my post back on page one of this thread where I informed you that the tee location was different (and shorter) on AM's 1926 plan, and that Hollins may not have been hitting from the same tee location.
-
SURPRISE.
All of you morons, cretins, blind followers, what do you say now ?
Neil Crafter has posted MacKenzie's plan from 1926 clearly indicating that the 16th hole is 200 yards from the back tee, NOT 220 or 230.
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t65/Saabman2005/CypressPointoverallplan1926.jpg)
Appologies will be graciously accepted. ;D
Yep, When are you going to apologize to Marion Hollins and her heirs for disabusing her all these years.
-
Garland,
Was it Jim Carey who said,
"And the truth shall set you free"
I hate it when I'm right, but, probably not as much as you. ;D
Neil Crafter, myself and others theorized that the shot may have taken place, but, not from the distance/s alleged (220-230)
MacKenzie's rendering seems to confirm that.
Appologies will be graciously accepted ;D ;D
-
...
Neil Crafter, myself and others theorized that the shot may have taken place, but, not from the distance/s alleged (220-230)
...
Please reference one place that has not been edited on this website where you "theorized" that the shot may have take place.
-
From "AM's CPC" p. 36:
An additional issue in the planning stages revolved around the 16th. There are various theories about this hole, but the facts remain fully straightforward. Marion Hollins insisted that the 16th play as a par 3 over water. MacKenzie's initial routing suggested a par-3 in the 200-yard range, but that would have put the tee in an awkward, less visually interesting position. MacKenzie also had an optional par-4 tee in his drawing and apparently believed strongly in that option until he and Hollins were in that area testing out tee sites.
[/size]
Geoff then quotes from SoSA...and this account has her hitting the balls in front of AM, not SR.
So Pat, while the routing above is interesting, and is featured on pg 37 of Geoff's book, as Geoff notes "this was later fine-tuned".
-
Neil Crafter, myself and others theorized that the shot may have taken place, but, not from the distance/s alleged (220-230)
WRONG - see my post above
MacKenzie's rendering seems to confirm that.
WRONG - see my post above
Appologies will be graciously accepted
I'll insist on a properly spelled apology from you. ;D
-
This thread is a good laugh.
The fact is Pat was doomed from the beginning. He stated that the myth was there were 3 balls played from 220. Well of course he was able to debunk that myth, no one has ever heard that story before.
As has been quoted numerous times, the only written source of this "myth" is AM's account which states "Marion Hollins, had walked the land with him when he was in the process of determining where the holes should be. When she suggested what is now the location of the 16th, he asked her to play a trial tee shot. The green now rests where her ball landed."
If this thread has done anything it's made a strong case that she did make it, especially in light of the evidence Patrick brings to the table as helping him. One of the main reasons he said that the story was pure myth was the presumed fact that Ms. Hollins couldn't carry the ball 220. As anyone can see, that does not matter!
I think everyone should go back and read page 1, particularly Adam Clayman's posts which were days ahead of their time. If you'll notice, Mr. Mucci was not so happy with the idea that the tee was not at 220 yards for some reason (I see now it's because in his story of origins unknown he assumes the shot is from 220), so I am left to wonder why he is so ecstatic as to its fact now.
Anyway I look forward to finding out more about the origins of CPC on the other thread.
-
well said Alex
-
It might be my aging eye site but it looks like the pirate map of CPC states that its "approximate lengths of holes in yards"
-
It might be my aging eye site but it looks like the pirate map of CPC states that its "approximate lengths of holes in yards"
It was in fact 200 yds from an "awkward" tee but it doesn't matter. It was a March 1926 early rendering that was subsequently discarded when MH and AMac went out and visited the 16th hole for the shot heard round the world. That according to Geoff's book, which I would tend to favor over Mark Frost's.
-
Matt, yes approximate length in yards, but given the numbers shown I'd say it is to the nearest 5 yards.
-
I have not read the last few pages of this thread which I have missed over the last few days. The reason is the Pat M's selective answers. He overlooks replying to questions which he can't answer without contadicting his own theory. It is a shame that such a knowledgable person should act in this slightly blinkered manner :(
Pat, the facts are:
1. That in 1949 Hogan, by his own admission, was hitting the driver an average of 265 yards.
John, that includes ROLL. And, I bet he wasn't hitting it that far in dense, cooler ocean air.
The FACTS are that Harvie Ward and Venturi confirmed that Hogan hit a driver, SHORT, so why are you inserting totally irrelevant
elements into the discussion. What part of the confirmation by Ward and Venturi don't you get ?
Yes Patrik ;) that would include roll but so would his shot on this particular day. Lets assume as you seem to, that Hogan hit it pretty full. Why would it be so short, head wind maybe?. Also, do Ward and Venturi say Hogan or any of the group hit their teeshots full bore? Do we have a date for the supposed Hollin's shot? Maybe this was at a warmer time of yearJon, when it's seasonably warmer the prevailing winds blow out of the west, into the golfer's face.
So you can nix that theory
Patrick, that is why they hit driver, because of the head wind and not the distance. So, if Marion Hollins did not have a head wind and played from 200 yards then the green would have been reachable. You have based your argument on ignoring some facts (head wind) and not knowing or considering others * shorter tee(
Harvie Ward indicated that he didn't challenge the tee shot to the green because it was too difficult and the only reason he hit driver that day was because Hogan hit driver. Why do you keep denying and questioning facts that have been clearly established ?
Have you ever played the hole . They ALL hit driver to the green.
Venturi told me he hit driver, Venturi and Ward told Jeff that they both hit driver as did Hogan
2. When the match was played it was not so warm
I already stated that the temperature was around 62-65 degrees, sweater weather.
What does that have to do with the FACT that Hogan hit driver that day ?Cooler weather, more clothing and so less freedom of movement hence shorter shot, maybe!!!
Jon 62-65 is hardly cool weather at CPC.
Accounts indicate that some were wearing sweaters, hardly restrictive clothing
Also does it say anywhere they all hit the driver full tilt?
He came up short. If he came up a little shorter, he'd be in the ocean, something that I"m sure he wanted to avoid.
All the other golfers also hit driver.
If you know anything about the hole, you know one thing, you don't want to come up short.
Your want to ERR on the LONG side.Maybe he just misjudged or even mishit his shot slightly
Yeah Jon, Hogan who had played the course before , armed with a good caddy, would misjudge the shot.
Maybe you would, but Hogan wouldn't, the same goes for Ward, Venturi and Nelson, who ALL hit driver.
and mishit Patrick? Once again ignoring possibilities that do not fit your vision of events
Have you ever played the hole ?No, but I bet you didn't back in the 1920's so you cannot judge the Hollin's shot any better than the rest of us.
Jon, that's really a dumb remark, one you wouldn't make if you had played the hole
It seems not so dumb. Had you have played the same shot as Hollins then you would have known about the shorter length
And finally Hollins was more than capable of hitting the ball 200+ and maybe she had a helping wind.
So am I and so is Pat Burke a former PGA Tour Pro, but, we both had to hit driver and that was with modern balls and equipment.
Now do you get it ?Pat, are you suggesting that a modern tour pro only hits the ball 220 yards.
Are you calling Pat Burke a liar.
He told you that out of four occassions, three times he hit driver.
I told you that I've hit driver on several occassions.
Why don't you get it ?
I know why, because you're NOT familiar with the hole and the conditions of play
No Pat, I am not calling Pat Burke a liar. PLEASE ANSWER THIS QUESTION. Where did I say he or you did not hit driver? But why was driver hit. If we are to believe you it was because of the length hence my comment
This is where I have a real problem with your take on things. Modern pro's hit the ball much futher than this even without roll. The only reasons I can think of for a modern tour pro to hit the ball so short with a full blooded driver are: into a strong head wind or massive difference in elevation. Or do you expect anyone to take you seriously in stating this?[/color]
Jon, the wind that day, from a nearby weather station, was at 1.8 knots, hardly a gale.
Take me seriously ?
Pat, anybody with a little knowledge of seaside courses knows that the wind there is never constant. 1.8 will be an average but do you have higwind stats? Maybe this is why Hogan came up short
Ward and Venturi stated that they hit driver as did Hogan.
Those guys were there, they know what they hit and what the others hit.
Why do you deny the facts ?
Are you calling Venturi, Ward, jeff, myself and others liars ?
Again, where do I ever say this?
And now we have some recently discovered facts.
The hole wasn't 220 or 230 yards, it was 200 yards in 1926.
That changes things a bit doesn't it.
yes, Patrick it does. So there is another reason why Hollins could have hit the tee shot and so you discredit your own argument
Jon
-
Neil Crafter, myself and others theorized that the shot may have taken place, but, not from the distance/s alleged (220-230)
No, what you said was "Nonetheless, it's another account that conflicts with the others, leading me to doubt any and all of them."
-
Only Pat Mucci could cite evidence that completely undermines his position (which, in case anyone isn't clear, was that Hollins could not have made the carry from the tee (not the modern tee, the tee)) and claim that it proved himself right. I have to say I admire such chutzpah.
-
Yardages derived from that sketch mean nothing, Neil clearly stated it was drawn by a local artist based on a crude Mackenzie routing...
-
Yardages derived from that sketch mean nothing, Neil clearly stated it was drawn by a local artist based on a crude Mackenzie routing...
Miichael,
The sketch is what it is, a sketch, but the yardages are not a figment of the artist's imagination, they were supplied to him by MacKenzie.
They are accurate, unless you're position is that MacKenzie didn't know how to measure distances
-
Only Pat Mucci could cite evidence that completely undermines his position (which, in case anyone isn't clear, was that Hollins could not have made the carry from the tee (not the modern tee, the tee)) and claim that it proved himself right. I have to say I admire such chutzpah.
Mark,
I was right.
And, you're being disengenuous, at best, with your absurd post.
I stated that there was no way Marion Hollins hit three balls 220 yards in 1925/6 over that chasm.
Since it's your preference to distort or dishonestly alter my position, here's an excerpt from my original post.
[/color]
The legend goes on to say that Marion Hollins, to prove her point that the hole could be a par 3, teed up three balls from a spot 220 yards from the center of the green and landed each one in the middle of what would become the green.
Now that it's been revealed that the hole was 200 yards, NOT 220, my premise, that the 220 yard shot/s was/were a MYTH, has been proven to be correct.
Only a moron or cretin would claim otherwise.
-
Not sure why I'm wading in here again, BUT:
Patrick -- who wrote, and where, that she hit three balls from 220 yards? That's the alleged myth that you've been trying to disprove, but unless I missed it, and despite lots of attempts by other posters to have you articulate it, you've never provided a clear source for that version -- which looks a lot like a strawman to me.
-
quote author=Jon Wiggett link=topic=46176.msg1020517#msg1020517 date=1287470019]
I have not read the last few pages of this thread which I have missed over the last few days. The reason is the Pat M's selective answers. He overlooks replying to questions which he can't answer without contadicting his own theory. It is a shame that such a knowledgable person should act in this slightly blinkered manner :(
Pat, the facts are:
1. That in 1949 Hogan, by his own admission, was hitting the driver an average of 265 yards.
John, that includes ROLL. And, I bet he wasn't hitting it that far in dense, cooler ocean air.
The FACTS are that Harvie Ward and Venturi confirmed that Hogan hit a driver, SHORT, so why are you inserting totally irrelevant
elements into the discussion. What part of the confirmation by Ward and Venturi don't you get ?
Yes Patrik ;) that would include roll but so would his shot on this particular day. Lets assume as you seem to, that Hogan hit it pretty full. Why would it be so short, head wind maybe?. Also, do Ward and Venturi say Hogan or any of the group hit their teeshots full bore? Do we have a date for the supposed Hollin's shot? Maybe this was at a warmer time of yearJon, when it's seasonably warmer the prevailing winds blow out of the west, into the golfer's face.
So you can nix that theory
Patrick, that is why they hit driver, because of the head wind and not the distance. So, if Marion Hollins did not have a head wind and played from 200 yards then the green would have been reachable. You have based your argument on ignoring some facts (head wind) and not knowing or considering others * shorter tee(
Jon, You're ignoring the facts, the headwinds are in the warmer, summer months.
They played on January 11th, hardly a warmer summer month.
In January, the prevailing winds are ESE, generally helping the golfer.
Why do insist on denying the facts.
Venturi and Ward said that they hit driver and that Hogan and Nelson hit driver.
Pat Burke, a PGA Tour Pro told you that he's hit driver.
I also told you that I hit driver.
Now you're insanely claiming that they deliberately mishit their drivers ? ? ?
Please, just admit to the facts and stop trying to distort them
Harvie Ward indicated that he didn't challenge the tee shot to the green because it was too difficult and the only reason he hit driver that day was because Hogan hit driver. Why do you keep denying and questioning facts that have been clearly established ?
Have you ever played the hole . They ALL hit driver to the green.
Venturi told me he hit driver, Venturi and Ward told Jeff that they both hit driver as did Hogan
2. When the match was played it was not so warm
I already stated that the temperature was around 62-65 degrees, sweater weather.
What does that have to do with the FACT that Hogan hit driver that day ?
Cooler weather, more clothing and so less freedom of movement hence shorter shot, maybe!!!
Jon 62-65 is hardly cool weather at CPC.
Accounts indicate that some were wearing sweaters, hardly restrictive clothing
Also does it say anywhere they all hit the driver full tilt?
He came up short. If he came up a little shorter, he'd be in the ocean, something that I"m sure he wanted to avoid.
All the other golfers also hit driver.
If you know anything about the hole, you know one thing, you don't want to come up short.
Your want to ERR on the LONG side.Maybe he just misjudged or even mishit his shot slightly
Yeah Jon, Hogan who had played the course before , armed with a good caddy, would misjudge the shot.
Maybe you would, but Hogan wouldn't, the same goes for Ward, Venturi and Nelson, who ALL hit driver.
and mishit Patrick? Once again ignoring possibilities that do not fit your vision of events
Now you're claiming that they all selected their club, a driver, with the intent of mishitting it ?
OR, that they mishit their driver.
These were four (4) of the greatest players in the game, playing at the top of their game and you want us to believe that they all mishit their driver,. but, that Marion Hollins, with equipment from 1925 or earlier, pured her driver hitting one or three balls right to the middle of the green.
Do you not see the absurdity of your position ?
Have you ever played the hole ?No, but I bet you didn't back in the 1920's so you cannot judge the Hollin's shot any better than the rest of us.
Jon, that's really a dumb remark, one you wouldn't make if you had played the hole
It seems not so dumb. Had you have played the same shot as Hollins then you would have known about the shorter length
Do you know how stupid that sounds.
First you're defending her alleged shot/s from a location 220/230 from the center of the green, and now you're stating that I should have known about the alternate location only 200 yards from the green. You can't have it both ways.
No one on this site knew about it until Neil Crafter posted the rendering of CPC circa 1926
And finally Hollins was more than capable of hitting the ball 200+ and maybe she had a helping wind.
So am I and so is Pat Burke a former PGA Tour Pro, but, we both had to hit driver and that was with modern balls and equipment.
Now do you get it ?Pat, are you suggesting that a modern tour pro only hits the ball 220 yards.
Are you calling Pat Burke a liar.
He told you that out of four occassions, three times he hit driver.
I told you that I've hit driver on several occassions.
Why don't you get it ?
I know why, because you're NOT familiar with the hole and the conditions of play
No Pat, I am not calling Pat Burke a liar. PLEASE ANSWER THIS QUESTION.
Where did I say he or you did not hit driver? But why was driver hit. If we are to believe you it was because of the length hence my comment
Driver was hit because each golfer on the tee felt that driver was the best club for that particular shot.
This is where I have a real problem with your take on things. Modern pro's hit the ball much futher than this even without roll. The only reasons I can think of for a modern tour pro to hit the ball so short with a full blooded driver are: into a strong head wind or massive difference in elevation. Or do you expect anyone to take you seriously in stating this?[/color]
Jon, the wind that day, from a nearby weather station, was at 1.8 knots, hardly a gale.
Take me seriously ?
Pat, anybody with a little knowledge of seaside courses knows that the wind there is never constant. 1.8 will be an average but do you have higwind stats? Maybe this is why Hogan came up short
With a 1.8 average, that means that some wind velocity was higher, and lower than 1.8, but, since you can't go lower than zero, for averaging purposes, the winds couldn't have been that high that day, at their highest.
I think most would agree that the breeze, no matter how slight, usualy comes off the ocean where the ocean meets the land, so, despite prevailing wind recordings at nearby stations, it's not unreasonable to think that ALL the golfers, including Marion Hollins, had a breeze in their face.
Don't forget that oceanside air tends to be heavier as well.
Ward and Venturi stated that they hit driver as did Hogan.
Those guys were there, they know what they hit and what the others hit.
Why do you deny the facts ?
Are you calling Venturi, Ward, jeff, myself and others liars ?
Again, where do I ever say this?
You say it over and over again by insisting that they couldn't have hit drivers or that they mishit their drivers or that gale force winds were buffeting the tee, while Marion Hollins enjoyed a nice breeze at her back.
And now we have some recently discovered facts.
The hole wasn't 220 or 230 yards, it was 200 yards in 1926.
That changes things a bit doesn't it.
yes, Patrick it does. So there is another reason why Hollins could have hit the tee shot and so you discredit your own argument
Jon, you and others need to take a course in logic.
I said that she couldn't hit that shot from 220-230 with balls and equipment from 192j5.
Now we find out that at most, the shot was 200.
So, I was right, the shot/s from 220-230 are a MYTH.
I know it pains you and others to say so, but, just repeat after me.
Pat Mucci was right........................ again. ;D
Jon
-
Not sure why I'm wading in here again, BUT:
Patrick -- who wrote, and where, that she hit three balls from 220 yards? That's the alleged myth that you've been trying to disprove, but unless I missed it, and despite lots of attempts by other posters to have you articulate it, you've never provided a clear source for that version -- which looks a lot like a strawman to me.
Carl,
Irrespective of who said it, everyone on here was declaring that she had in fact hit a shot/s of 220-230 over the chasm.
Neil Crafter posted a version, supposedly from MacKenzie, which claimed she hit the same/similar shot with a Brassie from 230.
I responded that was also a myth, although, others defended it.
Now, it comes to light that at the very longest, her shot was 200 yards and from a more benign location.
Irrespective of where the authorship lies, it's clear that any claim from 220-230 is a myth, with a shot/s from 200 or less, more likely.
-
Legend had it that Marion Hollins, a terrific golfer and athlete, changed Raynor's thinking regarding the 16th at CPC when he initially planned it as a par 4.
The legend goes on to say that Marion Hollins, to prove her point that the hole could be a par 3, teed up three balls from a spot 220 yards from the center of the green and landed each one in the middle of what would become the green.
This allegedly occured in or prior to 1926, when Marion was 34 years of age.
Some on this site insisted that the story is true.
Having played that hole a number of times, starting in 1979, I never believed the story/myth.
I hit driver my first time, I hit it solid and low into the wind and just reached the front of the green.
Think about:
The Ball in 1926
The equipment in 1926
The swing in 1926
Now, fast forward 30 years to January 11, 1956.
A lot had happened in those intervening 30 years in terms of improvements to the ball and equipment.
So, at about 2:00pm on January 11, 1956, four rather skilled golfers stepped up onto the 16th tee at CPC.
First to hit was 44 year old,....... Ben Hogan. He hit a driver...... in front of the green
Next to hit was 44 year old Byron Nelson. He hit a driver...... to six feet
Next to hit was 24 year old Ken Venturi. He hit a driver....... left of the green
Last to hit was 30 year old Harvie Ward. He hit a driver....... to five feet.
Ward had previously hit a driver on the hole when he was 7 under par, only to see his round ruined by an 8.
So, the legend would have us believe that Marion Hollins, 30 years earlier, hit the ball as far as Hogan, Nelson, Venturi and Ward.
As an aside, on January 11, 1956, Hogan shot 63, Nelson, 67, Venturi 65 and Ward 67, so it's not as if they were off their games.
Are we to believe that 30 years earlier, with inferior balls and equipment, that Marion Hollins hit THREE balls to the center of the green, a 220 yard shot, a feat that Hogan, Nelson, Venturi and Ward couldn't accomplish amongst themselves ?
Having accompanied Venturi in a match against my dad in 1964, it's beyond belief that Marion Hollins, with equipment of the day (1926), could hit the ball as far as Venturi. Going a step further, with the equipment of 1926 or 1956 there's NO way that Marion Hollins was a player of Venturi's equal, especially with regard to distance. The same goes for Ward, Hogan and Nelson.
But, it's a nice fable.
The question is, who started the myth and why ?
Pat,
You said 220 first. In answer to your question, the answer is you, and only god knows.
-
Patrick, did you somehow miss my post up above, with an excerpt form Geoff's CPC book that details that the 200 yard tee in an early drawing was rejected as too awkward, prompting Mackenzie and Hollins to go out to what became the final 16th tee?
-
After looking at some previous posts it's interesting to note that Geoff Shackleford says the shot occurred in March of 1926 with AM there.
The prevailing wind for March according to Mr. Pat Mucci is WEST! With a helping breeze that shot would probably play closer to 200 than 220 from the current tee, and it seems everyone here believes that she could carry it 200+.
-
Yes, for Pat's benefit he should turn to pg 36 of Geoff's book.
-
"Neil Crafter posted a version, supposedly from MacKenzie, which claimed she hit the same/similar shot with a Brassie from 230."
Pat, I have said before and will say it again, that was a random account of the story I got off the internet, and it does not quote Mackenzie. Mackenzie's account in Spirit of St Andrews does NOT give a distance, so it is irrelevant whether you think it was 220, 200 or whatever. mackenzie said she made the carry, whatever it was. I hope that is clear!! Any accounts with the distance added are later embellishments that Mac did not include.
While Geoff says that Mac was there when Hollins made the shot, Mackenzie's own account goes against that.
-
...
While Geoff says that Mac was there when Hollins made the shot, Mackenzie's own account goes against that.
Which begs the question, does Geoff have source materials beyond Mac's book? Did Geoff publish a bibliography in his book?
-
Now you're insanely claiming that they deliberately mishit their drivers ? ? ?
Please, just admit to the facts and stop trying to distort them
Patrick,
can you show me where I say they "deliberately" mishit their drivers? It seems to me that you twist and misunderstand comments made that do not fit your vision of how events must have been whilst ignoring further facts that you can not assimilate. The quality of your argument is reflected in the way you alter what others say. :-[
Jon
-
Patrick, did you somehow miss my post up above, with an excerpt form Geoff's CPC book that details that the 200 yard tee in an early drawing was rejected as too awkward, prompting Mackenzie and Hollins to go out to what became the final 16th tee?
I didn't miss it, it's irrelevant to the issue.
-
After looking at some previous posts it's interesting to note that Geoff Shackleford says the shot occurred in March of 1926 with AM there.
Alex, hopefully, you're not as obtuse as you seem.
MacKenzie himself indicates that he NEVER witnessed the event, and is SPECIFIC in stating that the event allegedly took place with Raynor, not himself.
So, who are you going to rely on, MacKenzie on page 135 of the book he authored a few years after the alleged event, or Geoff Shackelford's account, authored a distant
OR, are you to believe Geoff Shackelford on page 153 of his book, "The Golden Age of Golf Design" where he relates MacKenzie's third party reference to Hollins executiing the shot for RAYNOR.
The prevailing wind for March according to Mr. Pat Mucci is WEST! With a helping breeze that shot would probably play closer to 200 than 220 from the current tee, and it seems everyone here believes that she could carry it 200+.
Alex, you've gone from obtuse to stupid.
Wind directions are refered to from the direction the wind ORIGINATES.
A WEST wind means that the wind is coming FROM the WEST, NOT blowing TOWARD the west, meaning that Marion Hollins was hitting INTO the wind, not with it as you erroneously claimed. Since you were so quick to insist that she could make the shot with the wind at her back, I'm sure you'll now inform everyone that she could never make the shot into the wind ;D
-
Patrick_Mucci writes:
Irrespective of who said it, everyone on here was declaring that she had in fact hit a shot/s of 220-230 over the chasm.
Please post to where I ever once said it. I just said she hit over the chasm and we had no way of knowing how far she had to hit the shot to get across.
I admitted to my mistake in this thread. When you wrote about the Hollins shot I assumed you were talking about the most reliable account; the one MacKenzie writes. When I discovered your account was different than the MacKenzie I asked numerous times where your account came from and you finally admitted it came from Frost's book when someone else asked you. Once you finally admitted your Hollins story wasn't reliable I was done with the argument. I have no reason to believe MacKenzie's account isn't true. I have numerous reasons to believe Frost's account is myth.
Cheers,
Dan King
But myth is something else than an explanation of the world, of history, and of destiny.
--Paul Ricoeur
-
Patrick_Mucci writes:
Irrespective of who said it, everyone on here was declaring that she had in fact hit a shot/s of 220-230 over the chasm.
I responded:
Please post to where I ever once said it. I just said she hit over the chasm and we had no way of knowing how far she had to hit the shot to get across.
Patrick, I'm sure I haven't heard back from you because you are going through this thread anxiously looking for somewhere where I said it was a 220-230 shot. It will be much easier for you if you call it a day and apologize.
Either that or you could make the claim that when you said everyone you were using the royal "everyone."
Cheers,
Dan King
Fiction was invented the day Jonas arrived home and told his wife that he was three days late because he had been swallowed by a whale.
--Gabriel Garcia Marquez
-
Dan,
You haven't heard back from me because I've been out of town on business for the past 5 days.
But, I'll respond to you as soon as I've caught up and have the time for GCA.com
-
Taken from www.puregolf2010.com hopefully Jamie and Michael will not mind me breaching their copyright. This refers to Machrihanish Dunes in Scotland.
But Belle plays off 1 and still – at the ripe old age of 74 (I hope she won’t mind me saying so) – hits the ball 220 yards or so. What timing... She would take counsel; take aim; and nearly drive half the par 4s. It was a pleasure to watch.
-
While Geoff says that Mac was there when Hollins made the shot, Mackenzie's own account goes against that.
Hello Old Codger,
I cannot find anywhere in any of the books that I have, that Geoff states that it was MacKenzie that saw the shot. On page 36 in the Cypress book I read it as Raynor being the witness.
Now I am getting confused....
Hope all is well in Aus.
-
"I cannot find anywhere in any of the books that I have, that Geoff states that it was MacKenzie that saw the shot. On page 36 in the Cypress book I read it as Raynor being the witness."
Brian:
Not nessecarily. It says Mackenzie mentioned that Raynor did not think there could be a par 3 there and Hollins disagreed with him. It did not exactly say Hollins hit the shot in the presence of Raynor. Don't forget, when Raynor was there the club and course was a long way from finalizing anything to do with construction. That would take a few more years.
Marion Hollins obviously hit that shot but when and from where is a bit unclear. It probably always will be. So what?
What would be important is to actually find what Raynor did with a routing or whatever.
-
Patrick Mucci, I still haven't heard back on your backing up this claim. I had to go to the third page to find this thread and I'm worried you might not have responded because you couldn't find the thread.
Patrick_Mucci writes:
Irrespective of who said it, everyone on here was declaring that she had in fact hit a shot/s of 220-230 over the chasm.
I responded:
Please post to where I ever once said it. I just said she hit over the chasm and we had no way of knowing how far she had to hit the shot to get across.
Patrick, I'm sure I haven't heard back from you because you are going through this thread anxiously looking for somewhere where I said it was a 220-230 shot. It will be much easier for you if you call it a day and apologize.
Either that or you could make the claim that when you said everyone you were using the royal "everyone."
Cheers,
Dan King
You can bend it and twist it... You can misuse and abuse it... But even God cannot change the Truth.
--Michael Levy
-
Dan King,
Trust me, I didn't forget about you.
And, how do you know that she hit a tee shot over the chasm ?
Was there any record of the shot recorded by any eyewitness ?
Did Raynor write about it ? Hollins ?
As to reviewing this entire thread, I have NOT yet done so, but, I will.
Your position, implied all along that she hit the shot 220.
It's clear that you never rejected the alleged feat.
-
Patrick_Mucci writes:
Dan King,
Trust me, I didn't forget about you.
You may not have forgotten, but you clearly have me confused with someone else. You have consistently misconstrued my position.
Your position, implied all along that she hit the shot 220.
I thought we were having a serious discussion. I wasn't ready for this attempt at humor.
It's clear that you never rejected the alleged feat.
We've been over this ground countless times. I have no need or desire to reject Hollins shot (as mentioned by Alister MacKenzie in The Spirit of St. Andrews) to prove your original position is poorly reasoned.
But back to the question you have avoided answering:
Patrick_Mucci wrote in an earlier post:
Irrespective of who said it, everyone on here was declaring that she had in fact hit a shot/s of 220-230 over the chasm.
I responded:
Please post to where I ever once said it. I just said she hit over the chasm and we had no way of knowing how far she had to hit the shot to get across.
Did you mean to say something else?
Cheers,
Dan King
The right to search for the truth implies also a duty; one must not conceal any part of what one has recognized to be the truth.
--Albert Einstein
-
Dan King,
I didn't forget about you either.
I'm hoping to post a lengthy reply this weekend.