Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Geoffrey_Walsh on October 11, 2010, 07:02:56 PM
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I had the chance to play Sebonack in the morning and NGLA in the afternoon on 10/7 with Mike Cirba and a lifelong friend, Brad Serton. We went in expecting to be impressed by NGLA (which we were!) but Sebonack simply shocked all three of us. I knew Sebonack was good, but frankly I am surprised more on GCA don't include it on the short list of truly great courses. I have played a number of the stalwarts in NY/NJ area (Shinny, NGLA, Fishers, Bethpage, WF, PV etc.) and Sebonack clearly belongs in that group, and not at the end of the list. It is currently ranked #39 for Golf Digest and I only think that ranking will move up over time. Something in the low teens is not out of the question.
I have never been on a course so naturally beautiful. The trees are magnificent, wildlife, panaromic views of the bay and the beaches... frankly it could have been a nature preserve and I would have paid just to walk the property. The golf course is seamlessly integrated into its surroundings and it augments the beauty of the property. You can also see the influences of Cypress, PV, RM and others as you walk along. I particularly liked the conjoined fairway of #2, #3 and #18. Drop me in the second fairway with a bucket of balls and you might never hear from me again. The course is also not just a pretty face as it requires precision off the tee and on the approaches to score well, with a variety of options to choose from. Resistance to Scoring? The back tees play in 77/151 range.
It is pure speculation but I think the publicity around the opening of the Bandon courses and Tom's courses overseas (Kidnappers, Barnbougle, etc.) have really diverted attention from Sebonack, along with the highly private nature of the club. I have a feeling people will start focusing on it more when the Women's Open comes there in 2013. Talk about a course made for HD/1080p!
Finally, the course is certainly not above criticism. Both Mike and I agreed that the 8th hole (par 3 over a pond) was the only weak link in the routing. The hole reminds me more of one you would find on a Florida resort course and I think the bland shape/location of the pond contributes to it... Sebonack flows so naturally and your eye immediately picks up that is a man made hazard. I'm not sure what can be done but I know Mr. Pascucci and the Doak/Nicklaus team will continue to tweak things to try and get the course just right.
If you can ever find a way to play Sebonack, treat the invitation like it was a top 10 club and find a way to go!
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Geoffrey,
I had intended to start a thread this week provocatively titled, "Sebonack - Are you Freakin' Kidding Me??!?", but you've beat me to the punch.
The golf course was astonishing, a viscerally moving emotional experience, and I had tears in my eyes and chills down my spine at times during the day from the profoundness of the experience.
I don't know how better to express exactly how special this golf course is.
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The golf course was astonishing, a viscerally moving emotional experience, and I had tears in my eyes and chills down my spine at times during the day from the profoundness of the experience.
Glad to hear it's great and I hope to play it one day but jeez Mike, you need to get out more.
Tears and chills? Were you scattering ashes out there?
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Ryan,
I'll tell you what, man. I've played 835 courses in 32 states and a number of countries including most of the Top 50 or so in this country and I was absolutely blown away.
It was like watching a symphony where almost every note was dead solid perfect and it was a thing of intense beauty with so many competing factors and elements coming together in multi-layered blends of staggering inspiration.
If a man can't get emotional over that it's time to spread ashes indeed.
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I think Mike's tears and chills were directly related to his performance at the bar the night before during Halladay's no-hitter... :)
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Don't you think it's partly attributable to being the nouveau riche kid on the block?
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Geoffrey,
That was earlier in the round. Where the hell were you while the fetching bartender next door was feeding me drinks? ;)
By the 8th hole the storm had passed, and the emotions that flowed from that point were profound and genuine.
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Don't you think it's partly attributable to being the nouveau riche kid on the block?
Carl,
I could frankly give a crap about that pretentious nonsense.
That doesn't impress me at all and I've played any number of ultra-exclusive courses where gazillions were spent in building a course that left me cold.
Sebonack does not pale against its established neighbors as a great golf course.
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Sebonack is a really really good course, but its not perfect.
39 is probably appropriate in my mind. How man courses labeled NY or DOAK do you really think are going to find their way into the top-20? These publications wont let that happen.
You are %100 on the property... It was like nothing I had ever seen in terms of beauty. Lots of red tape due to env constraints though.
Resistance to scoring.. Yeah
You point out 8. Was there grass on #14 green? They were plugging scalp marks from mowers with old pins about 6-8 weeks ago...
... my full review is on my blog
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I certainly agree wholeheartedly with Mike's thoughts. I was so touched by the round that I literally just sat down on the cliff next to the 18th green just to make sure I soaked it all in before I left.
The only way the "new money" angle fits in is that I think some discount Sebonack because they think someone was just trying to copy Shinny or NGLA because they couldn't gain access to those clubs. Nothing could be further from the truth... The course is remarkably different from the other two even though all three are contiguous parcels. Sebonack defintely holds its own based purely upon the merits of the routing/course.
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Jaeger - the new green on 14 was grown in and rolled well. There is talk they will soften that green a little which doesn't seem unreasonable but I rather like the green. However, I was just over that green in 2 and walked away with a 6!
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Jaeger,
That's a very good review and I agree with most of it.
I simply would add in that I was blown away by other holes you didn't mention, such as the 10th.
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I also had the good fortune to play Sebonack after a morning round at NGLA 3 weeks ago. Played Shinny the next day and Garden City the final day. I would rate Shinny as the best by a whisker over NGLA. Sebonack also greatly impressed me but being next door to the other tracks is pretty stiff competition. My guess is that it should be top 5 modern and probably top 20-25 overall. The 14th green was the only glaring weakness in an otherwise fantastic track. My favorite hole at Sebonack was the 2nd. Back right pin placement-what a great hole. This is like arguing who is the ugliest gal in the MS Universe contest- they are all awesome , just different appeals for each of us. Jack
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One of the things that impressed me most with Sebonack was its ability to be both this brutally tough, USGA-loving penal test from the tips and still be a fun and sporty course from the members tees. Off the top of my head, I can't think of a more pleasant walking course of the 300+ I've played.
I'm probably more in Jaeger's camp than the Walsh/Cirba camp, although I agree those holes close to the clubhouse are fantastic.
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Geoffrey - Thats what bothered me so much! That it is such an easy fix... expensive, but easy... I just wanted to go grab my dozer and do it myself right there on the spot!
Mike - Thanks. #10 was one of my favorites too. Sometimes you cant mention everything. Standing on the tee having never been to Cypress or having played any Mackenzie, all I could think about was old photos of Cypress bunkers and italicized captions with the words active camouflage.
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Longterm, Sebonack has the potential to reach elite architectural greatness status. At this time, there is quite a bit of tweeking needed. As you pointed out, the eighth is very weak. The seventh seems forced. And the 9th is a Nicklaus par 5 that has been repeated numerous times with Doak style bunkering. In addition, the 2nd green is great in concept but way too severe. In a 1 club south wind, I witnessed 2 chip and runs at trickle speed get blown into the right bunker. In the same round, a well struck 6 iron on 17 landed 6 inches on the green over the right bunker for a semi-back right pin, just missed the stick on the high bounce and finished over the back bunker down in the foliage. The 17th green needs to be reworked so that a reasonable play can exist for keeping the ball out of a hazard in a 1 club south wind. When the greens are firm, which is awesome, this hole does not give a reasonable chance to hold the green, even when playing away from a pin. After seeing the huge bounce, I played away from the flag and was on the back left fringe having barely carried the front bunker--as for playing caliber, I shot 73 from the tips in a fairly substantial nassau at 7 ways.
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Jim - You are right... the Walk is A++
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Jaeger - the new green on 14 was grown in and rolled well. There is talk they will soften that green a little which doesn't seem unreasonable but I rather like the green. However, I was just over that green in 2 and walked away with a 6!
I thought the new green on 14 was a joke. It was an ugly, distracting scar on what was an otherwise wonderful course.
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I can't explain it but Sebonack has an artistic element that touched me in a way the other two didn't. I can't explain it any other way but I wish I could give this forum more than that.
In addition, let's all remember that Shinny and NGLA have had 100 years to iron out the kinks. I have no doubt Sebonack will continue to evolve and get better with time.
I also agree on the playability of the course which still challenging from the tips. It is the most elastic course that I have ever played.
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The golf course was astonishing, a viscerally moving emotional experience, and I had tears in my eyes and chills down my spine at times during the day from the profoundness of the experience.
Glad to hear it's great and I hope to play it one day but jeez Mike, you need to get out more.
Tears and chills? Were you scattering ashes out there?
I was going to speculate that it must have been 35 degrees when they played! ;D
I think I've heard more stories in the past 6 weeks from people that have played Sebonack than I have Bandon. From the number of players coming out of the woodwork on this thread, you'd think it was a muni!
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Mike, Geoffrey-
I wasn't suggesting that people were right to (possibly) have the thoughts I mentioned, only that I suspect it may occur. And for the record, the only courses on L.I. that I've played are Bethpage Black and Montouk Downs.
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Robert - #9 is actually the Doak/Nicklaus version of a Tillinghast hole. I think I read in Building Sebonack that it was based on Bethpage Black #4 in the spirit of LawnGuyland!
Geoffrey - Funny you mention elasticity... guess which Colorado golf course Mr. Doak was building at the same time that is often mentioned as the model for course set up
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Jaeger - I'd love to see Ballyneal... It is on the short list for 2011 and I'd love to compare the two since they were built around the same time.
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Geoffrey - Remember the 2010 wish list thread? Sebonack was on mine... hope it works out as well for you in 2011!
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I was a lot more impressed with Friars head then Sebonack, don't feel that the course is in the same league as Pacific, Old Mac and Rock Creek though....
Something about it just doesn't feel right. Given the site, I just think it could have been better. It felt fake to me. But not sure why, maybe visiting NGLA right before hand didn't help. Still a really good course. Ill try to expand later.
Would be interesting to note from those who have been to both courses, Sebonack or Friar's Head?
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I'm with you Ryan - Friar's Head.
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Tom may not want to comment on this, but I wonder how differently the course would have turned out, had he done the job solo. Also curious if the owner has any plans to tweak the course more.
The photos look truly spectacular.
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Ryan,
I love Friar's Head but Sebonack is a better golf course IMO.
Blasphemy, I know, but my honest belief nevertheless.
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Cool that more than one person on this DG is suggesting that four courses that pretty much neighbor each other are in the nation's top 20.
Another thread asks why CBM chose this plot of land for NGLA. The fact that not one, but four world-class courses were built there, answers the question pretty well.
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Jim.
I think the other thread was asking why CBM didn't select the Sebonack site first, without dirctly asking that.
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Jim - I was suggesting on the other thread that CBM could have found a site similar to Sebonack or Friars Head where he would have been able to locate more holes onto waterfront property.
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I've never been to Sebonack but I've had the really good "Building Sebonack" by Brad Klein in my golf library for a while now and every time I read it it reminds me to get out there soon as do the positive comments on this thread.
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The golf course was astonishing, a viscerally moving emotional experience, and I had tears in my eyes and chills down my spine at times during the day from the profoundness of the experience.
Funny. I thought you had a similar experience while playing the venerable Rolling Meadows in Ashland, PA.
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Kyle,
Yes, I did, but for wholly different reasons! ;)
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NGLA, Shinny, Sebonack, Friars Head in that order. All in my top 20. I have played 93 of the current GD list. Those 4 are certainly part of the elite.
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Supposedly, A different investor was looking into the old estate Sebonack resides on. He had Tom Fazio look at it, and was told that he (TF) could not build a great course there.
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Geoffrey (and perhaps Mr. Cirba as well), for Sebonack to move up somebody has to move down. Which of the 38 courses ranked higher by Golf Digest would you bump? Just for fun.
Mike
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I looked at this site when it was for sale. One of the most spectacular parcels I have ever seen. Course ratings are what they are and anyone can opine on what is a fair number, given some basis for support.
What's significant are:
1. The design team is proud and satisfied of the end result. All courses need tweaking...the older ones have been thru this phase already.
2. The Owner is happy with both his investment and the end result of the investment.
3. The members are happy. They really count as they put their money where their mouth's are.
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Michael Hendren,
I'd have to look at the most recent GD list, but I suspect my answer would be "a lot of them".
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Cirbro, get busy young man.
Bogey
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Jaeger - the new green on 14 was grown in and rolled well. There is talk they will soften that green a little which doesn't seem unreasonable but I rather like the green. However, I was just over that green in 2 and walked away with a 6!
I thought the new green on 14 was a joke. It was an ugly, distracting scar on what was an otherwise wonderful course.
Don't blame Tom Doak or Jack Nicklaus.
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Jaeger - the new green on 14 was grown in and rolled well. There is talk they will soften that green a little which doesn't seem unreasonable but I rather like the green. However, I was just over that green in 2 and walked away with a 6!
I thought the new green on 14 was a joke. It was an ugly, distracting scar on what was an otherwise wonderful course.
Don't blame Tom Doak or Jack Nicklaus.
I wouldn't. I thought 8 was a weak hole, but the other 18 are really good. My favorites probably being 2, 11 & 12.
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Jaeger - the new green on 14 was grown in and rolled well. There is talk they will soften that green a little which doesn't seem unreasonable but I rather like the green. However, I was just over that green in 2 and walked away with a 6!
I thought the new green on 14 was a joke. It was an ugly, distracting scar on what was an otherwise wonderful course.
Don't blame Tom Doak or Jack Nicklaus.
I wouldn't. I thought 8 was a weak hole, but the other 18 are really good. My favorites probably being 2, 11 & 12.
Why would you not blame the course designers?
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Jaeger - the new green on 14 was grown in and rolled well. There is talk they will soften that green a little which doesn't seem unreasonable but I rather like the green. However, I was just over that green in 2 and walked away with a 6!
I thought the new green on 14 was a joke. It was an ugly, distracting scar on what was an otherwise wonderful course.
Don't blame Tom Doak or Jack Nicklaus.
I wouldn't. I thought 8 was a weak hole, but the other 18 are really good. My favorites probably being 2, 11 & 12.
Why would you not blame the course designers?
That's not their green.
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Jaeger - the new green on 14 was grown in and rolled well. There is talk they will soften that green a little which doesn't seem unreasonable but I rather like the green. However, I was just over that green in 2 and walked away with a 6!
I thought the new green on 14 was a joke. It was an ugly, distracting scar on what was an otherwise wonderful course.
Don't blame Tom Doak or Jack Nicklaus.
I wouldn't. I thought 8 was a weak hole, but the other 18 are really good. My favorites probably being 2, 11 & 12.
Why would you not blame the course designers?
That's not their green.
;)
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Geoffrey / Mike:
How high do you see the course being ?
I too am a big fan -- I see the back-to-back par-4 holes at the 2nd and 3rd to be among the best I have played anywhere. Some have argued with me that the 2nd green is a bit too severe -- I say it's fine and puts a high premium on execution.
Curious to know your both comments on how you see the mid-positioned holes on the inner half -- after the par-3 12th -- some have said to me that is a weak (design wise stretch) element of the course. Also been mentioned how the par-3 8th -- with the pond seems out of place. I liked the hole and felt that comment too was a stretch.
Interesting to get your take on the 16th and the new tee position. The former one was a bit closer.
thanks,
p.s. how far behind do you both see Sebonack when held against the likes of NGLA, Shinnecock and maidstone ?
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Sebonack is a world class course in a world class neighborhood. Nothing has happened todate but wonderful maturing. I hope Jack does not monkey with the greens too much. I love the course just like it is.
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Would be interesting to note from those who have been to both courses, Sebonack or Friar's Head?
They are both very good courses but FH would probably get the nod for mine
MikeC or Geoffrey
Would be keen to hear what were your favourite inland holes at Sebonack ?
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I've been fortunate to play both. I love FH but I'll take Sebonack anyday.
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Supposedly, A different investor was looking into the old estate Sebonack resides on. He had Tom Fazio look at it, and was told that he (TF) could not build a great course there.
He was right....
but there's a great course there now
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Geoffrey Walsh,
Which of the 38 courses ranked higher would you bounce in favor of Sebonack ?
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Patrick,
About half of them, at least.
If someone can post the top 50 on the GD list I'd be happy to weigh in and name names.
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Mike,
Here is the listing ...
AUGUSTA NATIONAL
PINE VALLEY
SHINNECOCK HILLS G.C.
CYPRESS POINT CLUB
OAKMONT C.C.
PEBBLE BEACH G. LINKS
MERION G.C. (East)
WINGED FOOT G.C. (West)
FISHERS ISLAND CLUB
SEMINOLE G.C.
OAK HILL C.C. (East)
CHICAGO G.C.
SAND HILLS G.C.
PACIFIC DUNES
NATIONAL G. LINKS OF AMERICA
CRYSTAL DOWNS C.C.
WADE HAMPTON G.C.
THE COUNTRY CLUB (Clyde/Squirrel)
MUIRFIELD VILLAGE G.C
MEDINAH C.C. (No. 3)
PRAIRIE DUNES C.C.
WHISTLING STRAITS (Straits)
OAKLAND HILLS C.C. (South)
VICTORIA NATIONAL G.C.
THE OCEAN COURSE
THE OLYMPIC CLUB (Lake)
THE CLUB AT BLACK ROCK
CASTLE PINES G.C.
BETHPAGE STATE PARK (Black)
BALTUSROL G.C. (Lower)
RIVIERA C.C.
PINEHURST RESORT & C.C. (No. 2)
BANDON DUNES
SOUTHERN HILLS C.C.
THE GOLF CLUB
SAN FRANCISCO G.C.
BUTLER NATIONAL G.C.
THE HONORS COURSE
SEBONACK G.C.
INVERNESS CLUB
SHADOW CREEK
CANYATA G.C.
OLYMPIA FIELDS C.C. (North)
THE QUARRY AT LA QUINTA
TPC SAWGRASS (Players Stadium)
RICH HARVEST LINKS
LOS ANGELES C.C. (North)
KINLOCH G.C.
ARCADIA BLUFFS G.C.
SHOAL CREEK
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Supposedly, A different investor was looking into the old estate Sebonack resides on. He had Tom Fazio look at it, and was told that he (TF) could not build a great course there.
Adam,
Since I saw the routing he did for the site, I think that may be a bit of a tall tale.
The strangest part I remember were the two ocean side holes playing towards the current 18th tee.
I thought it was an odd choice.
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Ian - If I am understanding you correctly, I can see playing up to 18 tee from the current 18 fairway being pretty cool. A bit of a climb up the hill, then the view out into that back portion of h2o and the natural bunkers on the land across.
However coming back up hill, h2o to the left seems like a waste. Not only do you play away from the obvious view but, as I have said before, you waste what seems to be 2 of the most obvious greensites on the course #11 and 12...
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Geoffrey Walsh,
Which of the 38 courses ranked higher would you bounce in favor of Sebonack ?
Pat, Having played Sebonack a couple months ago it is fairly fresh in my mind so the courses that I feel are unfairly rated by GD ahead of it are as follows: The Honors, Butler, Bandon, Balturol Lower, Olympic Club, Ocean Course, Whistling Straits, Medinah. These are all very fine courses and certainly top 100 but rated higher than I feel they should be . Keep in mind that Rich Harvest Links is #46 by GD. This is a love it or hate it track- most seasoned golfers hate it. In Chicago I could pick 10 courses that are better. My opinion is that the Golfweek ratings appear to be much more accurate in their attempt to rank the great courses in this country. Just my thoughts. I would place Sebonack at the 25-30 range.
Wish you well, Jack
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Sebonack is still a work in progress. I love it and feel it is one of the elite courses in America. Time is the friend of this great course.
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Geoffrey Walsh,
Which of the 38 courses ranked higher would you bounce in favor of Sebonack ?
Pat,
I can only speak to the ones I have played but I would take a round at Sebonack over the following:
The Golf Club
Riviera
Baltusrol
Bethpage (and I played there growing up, was a Committee Chair for the 2009 Open)
Kiawah (Ocean)
Muirfield Village
And I would have to think long and hard about Sebonack vs. WFW
From what I have read, I would think it would compare favorably to the following:
Honors
Butler
Bandon
Castle Pines
Black Rock
Olympic
VN
Medinah
TCC
Wade Hampton
I'll let Senor Cirba chime in since he can actually travel and play golf these days.
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That leaves a group of heavy hitter possibles IMHO which others can chime in on:
SFGC
Southern Hills
Pinehurst
Oakland Hills
Whistling Straits
Prarie Dunes
Crystal Downs
Chicago
Oak Hill
Seminole
Pebble
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I would put Sebonack ahead of
Olympic
The Country Club
Medinah- way ahead
Baltusrol
Oak Hill- way ahead
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Matt,
Thanks for that listing.
In my humble opinion, the following are courses that I would rate as superior to Sebonack, which is admittedly a very subjective exercise.
Still, I think you'll see that I hold it in very high regard, and was shocked at how good it is.
AUGUSTA NATIONAL
PINE VALLEY
SHINNECOCK HILLS G.C.
CYPRESS POINT CLUB
OAKMONT C.C.
MERION G.C. (East)
SAND HILLS G.C.
RIVIERA C.C.
SEBONACK G.C.
There are a few others like Pac Dunes that are in the same neighborhood.
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Mike:
I agree w you in terms of the overall greatness of Sebonack.
Of the current top 50 by GD I have played 45. I would place Sebonack ahead of the following courses ...
Likely Sebonack would be in the 25-30 range for me.
OAK HILL C.C. (East)
WADE HAMPTON G.C.
THE COUNTRY CLUB (Clyde/Squirrel)
MUIRFIELD VILLAGE G.C
MEDINAH C.C. (No. 3)
WHISTLING STRAITS (Straits)
THE CLUB AT BLACK ROCK
CASTLE PINES G.C.
BALTUSROL G.C. (Lower)
BANDON DUNES
SOUTHERN HILLS C.C.
INVERNESS CLUB
OLYMPIA FIELDS C.C. (North)
THE QUARRY AT LA QUINTA
TPC SAWGRASS (Players Stadium)
RICH HARVEST LINKS
ARCADIA BLUFFS G.C.
SHOAL CREEK
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Funny, I had two trips to Long Island in consecutive years, playing Maidstone, Shinnecock, Sebonack, and the next year, Friar's Head, NGLA and Creek Club.
Frankly I didn't see much of a comparison between Sebonack and Friar's Head, though I did see them a year apart. In my mind, Sebonack started nicely and ended well, but didn't overwhelm me at all in the middle. On the other hand, I felt Friar's Head was terrific throughout. I thought you could really see the push/pull between Nicklaus and Doak throughout -- strange mixes of Doak greens and Nicklaus strategy, or vice versa.
I don't see any comparison between Sebonack and NGLA or Shinnecock -- it isn't in their league.
To those who seem to really appreciate Sebonack, how high would you rank it on the world list, which it isn't currently on?
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Geoff, Jack, Mark & Mike,
How do you justify your position in light of the course making modifications, (fix its) ?
Are more modifications in store ?
Do you find the 2nd green an asset or a liability in terms of ranking ?
How about the 17th hole with a far right hole location ?
I like a lot of things about Sebonack, but, I'm always nervous about declaring greatness when a course is undergoing architectural transitions/alterations so early in it's existance.
Sebonack and NGLA will get their chance on the big stage in the next few years.
I think the exposure will be good for golf and golf course architecture.
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Along the lines of Pat's queries. Are the changes to Sebonack being created by the owner or are Tom and Jack signing off on them?
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For all the people moaning about the changes being put into motion at Sebonack -- how do they justify all the changes that have happened at ANGC - clearly plenty of those changes didn't happen with the permission of Bob Jones and Alister Mackenzie ?
Robert:
Good point about the middle holes -- they are not as strong as the holes that are nearest to the water. But please illuminate for me in what specific ways they are deficient. I am not a fan of the par-3 8th -- never really saw the frontal water hazard as being innovative. But there are plenty of holes in the middle that are far from lackluster in my mind.
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Isnt the pond on 8 something that Nicklaus wanted and not Doak?
Mark
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Indeed, we have an embarrassment of riches in terms of great golf here in Southampton.
For those who haven't played Sebonack an opportunity to do so will present itself in 2011. Thanks to the powers that be at Sebonack ( Mr Pascucci and Mark Hissey) the local Lions Club, of which I am a member, will host a fund raising event next year.
The cost will be comparable to an unescorted fee and will include lunch, golf, caddie, cocktails and hor d'oeurves on the porch in back of the clubhouse overlooking Peconic Bay.
If interested drop me an IM which includes your email and I will keep you informed as to the date, time, etc.
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For all the people moaning about the changes being put into motion at Sebonack -- how do they justify all the changes that have happened at ANGC - clearly plenty of those changes didn't happen with the permission of Bob Jones and Alister Mackenzie ?
Matt,
I hope you're not going to equate changes made in the first 4 years at Sebonack with changes made over 77 years at ANGC, a course that conducts a Major Tournament for PGA Tour Pros every spring.
The degree of MacKenzie's involvement at ANGC, from the very begining, has been questioned.
Jones and Roberts were the powers that cleared any changes during their reigns.
Robert:
Good point about the middle holes -- they are not as strong as the holes that are nearest to the water. But please illuminate for me in what specific ways they are deficient. I am not a fan of the par-3 8th -- never really saw the frontal water hazard as being innovative. But there are plenty of holes in the middle that are far from lackluster in my mind.
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Gene,
What's the date ? ? ?
Indeed, we have an embarrassment of riches in terms of great golf here in Southampton.
For those who haven't played Sebonack an opportunity to do so will present itself in 2011. Thanks to the powers that be at Sebonack ( Mr Pascucci and Mark Hissey) the local Lions Club, of which I am a member, will host a fund raising event next year.
The cost will be comparable to an unescorted fee and will include lunch, golf, caddie, cocktails and hor d'oeurves on the porch in back of the clubhouse overlooking Peconic Bay.
If interested drop me an IM which includes your email and I will keep you informed as to the date, time, etc.
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Pat:
Changes were made to ANGC very shortly after it opened.
I have no issue when places make changes -- provided they are improvements from what was there previously.
The issue for Sebonack is that it lies next to NGLA and Shinnecock Hills. Tough to differentiate oneself from such a grouping.
Like I said -- I see no reason why the course cannot be rated slightly higher than GD has it now.
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Gene,
What's the date ? ? ?
Indeed, we have an embarrassment of riches in terms of great golf here in Southampton.
For those who haven't played Sebonack an opportunity to do so will present itself in 2011. Thanks to the powers that be at Sebonack ( Mr Pascucci and Mark Hissey) the local Lions Club, of which I am a member, will host a fund raising event next year.
The cost will be comparable to an unescorted fee and will include lunch, golf, caddie, cocktails and hor d'oeurves on the porch in back of the clubhouse overlooking Peconic Bay.
If interested drop me an IM which includes your email and I will keep you informed as to the date, time, etc.
It is sometime in May.
When I am able to contact the tournament planner and he has a definitive date and time I will post it.
He's presently at Boca Rio taking hourly wind readings in preparation for Santa's excursion.
I previously had mentioned to him that you would the only other individual privvy to this vital information. Upon your arrival in Florida you may contact him.
His name is "Beeks." :D
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Matt. Who is moaning about the changes?
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Gene,
What's the date ? ? ?
Indeed, we have an embarrassment of riches in terms of great golf here in Southampton.
For those who haven't played Sebonack an opportunity to do so will present itself in 2011. Thanks to the powers that be at Sebonack ( Mr Pascucci and Mark Hissey) the local Lions Club, of which I am a member, will host a fund raising event next year.
The cost will be comparable to an unescorted fee and will include lunch, golf, caddie, cocktails and hor d'oeurves on the porch in back of the clubhouse overlooking Peconic Bay.
If interested drop me an IM which includes your email and I will keep you informed as to the date, time, etc.
It is sometime in May.
When I am able to contact the tournament planner and he has a definitive date and time I will post it.
He's presently at Boca Rio taking hourly wind readings in preparation for Santa's excursion.
I previously had mentioned to him that you would the only other individual privvy to this vital information. Upon your arrival in Florida you may contact him.
His name is "Beeks." :D
Gene,
If only you would have told me earlier, I could have saved him the effort.
I already have the wind readings in 15 minute intervals
I could also have told him that he's wasting his time.
And, after Madoff got done with Boca Rio, outsiders, including Santa are no longer welcome
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The Long Island Golf Assoc. is having their Caddie Scholarship Fund outing at Sebonack in 2011; I believe on Oct. 11. Check their website for more info. longislandgolf.org
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May 24th is confirmed as the date the Southampton Lions Club will host the tourney at Sebonack.
830 range
900 continental breakfast
1000 golf
230 lunch
includes cart and caddie fees
$650
Im if you are interested.
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Agreed. I love that course. Fun and thrilling golf.
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Sebonack is a fantastic course... but, you have to scratch your head about #8 (the par 3 over the pond) and #14 with its bizarre green. And, I can see where #17, the long par 3 with a ball buster green, would exasperate a lot of golfers... especially that late in the round.
Brian and Mac... you guys seem to retain a better memory courses after one or two plays. How many times does one have to hit an uphill shot, or at least a shot at a target above your head? Felt like a lot to me, but my memory isn't as sharp as it used to be. Walk me through it.
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Brian,
You have had quite a week of golf. Do you feel that Sebonack is particularly underrated? If so,where would you rank it? Where would you rank it within your current trip?
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coming from the mouth of an 'uneducated', young 'student of the game'/profession, (as well as an admirer of Renaissance and their work) I believe Sebonack should not even be constructed on the same land adjacent to Shinne and NGLA. (I know that I am running the risk of being "that guy", and later on in life I will probably regret saying this, but...) It should be constructed somewhere in the 'sandhills' of NJ instead of such a prime location on the southern coast (bays) of LI.
It was a hodgepodge of ideas/ideals, constructed on a GREAT piece of property, located within, what? 50 miles of one of the largest urban cores of the world? In my (humble and 'uneducated') opinion, it may be one of the most overrated courses in the last 25 years.
Friar's Head (which I also downplay, but only after seeing Sand Hills prior to playing) is far superior to that which is Sebonack.
As Mr. Mucci states, NGLA and Sebonack will be in the spotlight in the forthcoming years, of which, I will predict that Sebonack receives more praise from many golf writers, editors and public outlets than NGLA. This is completely false! There is nothing at Sebonack that outweighs the intricacies, nuances and strategic elements implemented at the National. Yet, the media will portray Sebonack as a 'modern gem'.
I LOVE Tom and his entire team; they are amazing people and each one has dedicated their lives to the game and the profession, but Sebonack is NOT underrated...IMHO
Returning back to the original post, I believe that Sebonack should post higher than WF and Bethpage, but well behind the rest of the aforementioned 'stalwarts'.
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coming from the mouth of an 'uneducated', young 'student of the game'/profession, (as well as an admirer of Renaissance and their work) I believe Sebonack should not even be constructed on the same land adjacent to Shinne and NGLA. (I know that I am running the risk of being "that guy", and later on in life I will probably regret saying this, but...) It should be constructed somewhere in the 'sandhills' of NJ instead of such a prime location on the southern coast (bays) of LI.
It was a hodgepodge of ideas/ideals, constructed on a GREAT piece of property, located within, what? 50 miles of one of the largest urban cores of the world? In my (humble and 'uneducated') opinion, it may be one of the most overrated courses in the last 25 years.
Friar's Head (which I also downplay, but only after seeing Sand Hills prior to playing) is far superior to that which is Sebonack.
As Mr. Mucci states, NGLA and Sebonack will be in the spotlight in the forthcoming years, of which, I will predict that Sebonack receives more praise from many golf writers, editors and public outlets than NGLA. This is completely false! There is nothing at Sebonack that outweighs the intricacies, nuances and strategic elements implemented at the National. Yet, the media will portray Sebonack as a 'modern gem'.
I LOVE Tom and his entire team; they are amazing people and each one has dedicated their lives to the game and the profession, but Sebonack is NOT underrated...IMHO
Returning back to the original post, I believe that Sebonack should post higher than WF and Bethpage, but well behind the rest of the aforementioned 'stalwarts'.
Michael, I agree with you that the course is overrated, but to say it never should have been built there is a bit absurd. NGLA and Shinny are 2 of the greatest courses ever built, chances are, that course was not going to be as good, or even in the same league. I understand what you are saying and half agree, but I didn't expect a trifecta.
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The channeling Sean Arble post:
1 round of 50% Doak at Sebonack or 30 rounds of 100% at Quail Crossing? Just saying...
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Brian, NGLA conditions are ideal, you must have caught it on a bad day.
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Brian, perhaps this is the beauty and the downside of golf course ratings? The beauty is that one man's Sebonack may be another's Firar's Head, and vice versa. It would be very hard to argue one is wrong. The personal nature of evaluation has to come into play, and you may like someting that I don't.
On the other hand, this is the downside as well. It is too subjective, and based on too many outside influences. If you did indeed plug a ball on the Alps (which I have no reason to doubt) you must have played on a particularly wet day. I have been lucky enough to play NGLA several times, and have never seen a plugged ball. It is entirely possible that you will judge NGLA based upon a day that is very unusual for it in terms of play. This is not even getting into the personal feeling in regard to hitting the ball well, being treated well etc. As I said, there are good sides and bad sides in the "science" of rating.
As for not loving Shinnecock the first time you played it, I have no explanation there! ;D
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Keith,
Is it underrated? I'll need to come back to you on that after some more thought but I think hands down this should have a guaranteed spot in the World top 100 - whichever publication has that list. I have heard folk refer to "ideal maintenance melds" and the like in reference to NGLA - now I would use that term to describe Sebonack much more readily than the National. I hit a 4 iron to the Alps hole at National with my second shot - struck it well and it plugged short of the green. Don't get me wrong, I think National is phenomenal, but in order for these fantastic design concepts to fully be exploited, you need turf / grasses / firmness similar to that at Sebonack - I have heard virtually noone make this point about the relative softness at other courses in the area - maybe they don't feel it's crucial - I do, personally - but it is all subjective. I would also say that I am a subscriber to Doak's principles that if you hit a crooked one, you will almost certainly find your ball, but the green complexes / bunkering will provide the defence. At some other courses in the area, you will find yourself wading through knee high fescue. Although I would say that the caddies mentioned the undergrowth had been cleared out recently with a view to it growing back even thicker than before for the ladies open - that kinda disappointed me, but maybe I misunderstood what he was saying.
Mike, the little par 3 - I have no problem with it just because it is over water - it has a cool little green and is a short enough hole that folk won't be dunking it in the water every day. I think it provides a nice bit of visual variety. As for uphill shots, yes there are quite a few but the ground game is there so it's about controlling trajectory - you can bump it into those upslopes and the ball won't snag so it's not a case needing to hit on the front edge of a rock hard green or else your down the bottom of a hill.
As for my favourite courses of the trip. That's hard. I think National and Friar's Head. Which do I most want to play again? The National. Which did I really LOVE (and by love I don't mean by entering numbers into an equation / evaluating strategy etc, I mean something intangible) the most first time around - Friar's - but I wonder after many multiple plays (not gonna happen!) would I feel the same? Maybe not.
Shinny was superb, I am just not in love with it (yet, after one play). As to where Sebonack sits in relation to Friar's in terms of number of plays - I would say 7 plays FH, 3 to Sebonack. I basically think that all of these courses belong in the same conversation rather than necessarily saying the likes of National and Shinny are in a different league, excellent though they are. They all offer something different and unique. But I will say this - my opinion might dramatically change after many additional further plays.
There are no plans whatsoever to grow the undergrowth thicker. We have been deliberately trying to improve airflow around the course in order to improve turf conditions. An endless quest for us.
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Bump. I still feel the same about this course.
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I was under-aware of Sebonack until I started watching the coverage on Thursday. I immediately phoned my golf buddy to tell him to turn on his TV immediately -- ".... too hard to describe just how beautiful and interesting it is." He has circled the world as a video-jock for pro golf & tennis, and he has played most of the best courses -- but, boy, does it look spectacular..
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It is so nice for our friend Tom Doak to have his course, designed with the great Jack Nicklaus, presented so beautifully this weekend. Congrats to Garret Boddington for course conditioning and beautiful bunker presentation. Congratulations also to Tom for what I believe is his first major tournament. It looks spectacular.
Meanwhile, Inbee Park is making mince meat of the competition. Great to see a player with an idiosyncratic swing dominate.
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John Kirk,
I think the club employed mats similar to what TOC employed in order to present pristine conditions.
It'll be interesting to see how they set up the cameras when televising the Walker Cup.
I think the caddy lining up putts from behind the golfer should be the next to go.
One announcer declared 11.9 on the Stimp on Thursday or Friday, with one I believe, predicting 13 on the weekend.
I found that hard to believe.
The "appearingly" slow swing seems counter intuitive when it comes to distance
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Brian,
I'd agree.
I've always maintained that generous fairways are the key to enjoyable golf for the broad spectrum of golfers and Sebonack's fairways are generous.
With good to great architecture, generous fairways don't diminish the challenge.
Sebonack is proving that, although some of the greens might be deemed too severe.
As much as I love Newport, they narrowed their fairways for the Women's Open.
I believe that NGLA's fairways will remain generous for the Walker Cup.
The concept of narrowing fairways in order to challenge the best golfers in the world, unfortunately, has a trickle down effect to the local club level, where the quality of the golfers differs dramatically from those competing on a narrowed Open venue.
There's a reason that courses like GCGC and NGLA remain enjoyable to play, yet challenging, 100 years after their creation, and generous width is a key ingredient.