Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Ally Mcintosh on October 05, 2010, 10:35:27 AM
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There can't be many...
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I would imagine Seminole is...
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Augusta National
Seminole
Pinehurst # 2
Casa De Campo
The Ocean Course
TPC Sawgrass
Southern Hills
Cabo Del Sol
Harbour Town
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Augusta National
Seminole
Pinehurst # 2
Casa De Campo
The Ocean Course
TPC Sawgrass
Southern Hills
Harbour Town
Thanks Eric... Is that a comprehensive list - did you go right through them?
More than I was expecting to tell you the truth...
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Augusta National
Seminole
Pinehurst # 2
Casa De Campo
The Ocean Course
TPC Sawgrass
Southern Hills
Cabo Del Sol
Harbour Town
What type of grass is The Masters played on each spring?
What are the greens at Pinehurst #2?
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Ally,
I looked at 2009 Golf Magazine. I would imagine Durban would be warm season as well.
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Royal Melbourne
Kingston Heath
NSW
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What type of grass is The Masters played on each spring? Bermudagrass overseeded with rye
What are the greens at Pinehurst #2? Penn G-2 Bent
So yes, these examples would have an * and probably some others as well.
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Mid Ocean in Bermuda would have to be one. (I think it's still in the top 100?)
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LA Country Club used to be common bermuda before Gil Hanse and Geoff Shackelford redid it this year.
Depending on which list you use, you could add these:
Colonial CC
East Lake
Peachtreee
World Woods - Pine Barrens
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Please educate me...
What do you mean by warm season grasses? Could you provide examples of the specific grasses?
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Augusta National is not one; it is on Rye with Bent greens which I believe to be a cool season grasses.
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Please educate me...
What do you mean by warm season grasses? Could you provide examples of the specific grasses?
From my understanding the warm season grasses are Zoysia and Bermuda; any others?
Cool would be Bent, Rye, and Fescue. (Is fescue considered cool season?)
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Thanks David.
East Lake has zyosia fairways and bermuda greens.
I think Cuscowilla is having to re-do their greens as they were/are bent and they got hammered this summer.
Atlanta Athletic (prior Top 100) has zyosia fairways (although the blades seem thinner thant the blades at East Lake) but I believe they have bent greens...and are showing some stress.
I think I am right on this next point...but please correct me if I am wrong...Atlanta Country Club's greens are in FANTASTIC shape...mind blowingly good...and they are bent. They have a Hall of Fame Super and it shows.
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AAC Highlands, the course that would have been in the top 100 just replaced their greens with Bermuda about a year ago; they (from my understanding) the only course in the country with Diamond Zoysia fairways which were just recently done as well; replacing the Bermuda fways.
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Again...thanks David. Do you know if AAC Riverside has bent greens. I just played that last week and I thought they were bent, but I am still struggling with grass identification.
FYI...trying to educate myself about grass.
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Yes they are bent; I think they have Zion (Don't know how to spell it) Zyosia fways; probably the same as East Lakes, my understanding is that they lost several this summer due to the heat. Were they pretty bad?
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David...thanks again!! :)
Uh...were they pretty bad? Hard to answer really. For down here after the summer we had, no they weren't too bad. Were they bad compared to Augusta National during The Masters? Yes, they were bad. If Tiger didn't like the greens at Pebble for the US Open, he would have hated these. ;)
The thing that made them tough to play on was the seemed to be keeping the grass longer than normal. I suppose to keep them more healthy and hardy? (that is a guess). This made them slower than normal. It frustrated us a few times on downhill putts that would have normally fed to the hole. But the bumpiness wasn't too bad overall.
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Okay, a lot of wrong information going on in this thread, so let me help and correct.
Top 100 courses with bermudagrass greens (Golf Digest):
Seminole
TPC Sawgrass
The Prince
East Lake
Long Cove Club (overseeded)
Harbour Town GL (overseeded)
Cassique
Black Diamond (overeseeded)
Calusa Pines
Ocean Forest (zoysia fwys)
Top 100 Courses with bentgrass greens, bermuda fws, etc
Augusta National (overseeded)
Pinehurst #2
Southern Hills
Shadow Creek (bent tees/approaches)
The Quarry at La Quinta (overseeded)
LACC
Estancia (overseeded)
Eagle Point
Sage Valley (overseeded)
Top 100 courses with paspalum greens, bermudagrass fwys, etc…
The Ocean Course
Top 100 courses with Zoysia fwys
The Honors Course
Dallas National
Peachtree
Flint Hills National
East Lake
Ocean Forest
As for Atlanta Athletic Club, the Riverside has bentgrass, the Highlands has Champion. They zoysia fwys are much different than East Lake.
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Augusta National
Seminole
Pinehurst # 2
Casa De Campo
The Ocean Course
TPC Sawgrass
Southern Hills
Harbour Town
Add Colonial, Champions, Peachtree......is this digging too deeply?
Thanks Eric... Is that a comprehensive list - did you go right through them?
More than I was expecting to tell you the truth...
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What I think I know:
Bent grass is the best grass for greens (or so 'they' say), but it is not very tolerant to high temperatures such as in the south (leading to fans around greens or the inability to have bent grass).
However, if the bermuda grass greens at East Lake and Cassique (to name two) are so good, pure and quick, and are easily maintained in high temps, what the heck is the point of struggling to keep bent greens in the south? I played Cassique last April and the greens were fantastic (true and quick)...What gives?
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George:
I played Cassique two weeks ago and the greens were amazing -- fast (sign said 11.5 on stimp), firm enough, and incredibly true. There was some sand or something on them, but it didn't seem to affect the roll one bit. It was still pretty hot in South Carolina at that point -- high 80's/low 70's, and pretty humid.
The greens at the River course were almost as good.
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Anthony,
Ally asked, "Which World Top 100 courses are on warm season grasses?"
You've listed a ton of courses outside of that list. Would love to see your list as per the question, if you have time.
Thanks.
Eric
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Eric,
re your question to Tony, which top 100 list? I'l bet each of the courses he mentioned have found their way onto a top 100 list somewhere at sometime.
Tony, BTW, The Quarry at La Quinta has bermuda greens.
There is no reason the right warm season grass can't be used on a top 100 course. Its the architecture, not the grass that makes the difference.
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Riviera has kikuyu grass fairways.
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How warm is Poa Annua? And for that matter Kikuyu? I'm thinking along the lines of Pebble and Riviera in this question.
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Augusta National
Seminole
Pinehurst # 2
Casa De Campo
The Ocean Course
TPC Sawgrass
Southern Hills
Cabo Del Sol
Harbour Town
How many that do not at any time of the year introduce other grasses into the mix?
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Anthony,
Ally asked, "Which World Top 100 courses are on warm season grasses?"
You've listed a ton of courses outside of that list. Would love to see your list as per the question, if you have time.
Thanks.
Eric
Eric,
In my initial post, I have "Golf Digest" in parenthesis. I used Top 100 USA
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Don,
In an earlier post I mentioned that I listed those from the 2009 Golf Magazine list. I assumed that Ally was asking about the world top 100 courses when he asked about the world top 100 courses.
Eric
btw, I was mostly assuming on all of those course I listed from GM and won't pretend to know jack!
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Don,
In an earlier post I mentioned that I listed those from the 2009 Golf Magazine list. I assumed that Ally was asking about the world top 100 courses when he asked about the world top 100 courses.
Eric
btw, I was mostly assuming on all of those course I listed from GM and won't pretend to know jack!
You mean there is a world beyond the United States?
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Please educate me...
What do you mean by warm season grasses? Could you provide examples of the specific grasses?
From my understanding the warm season grasses are Zoysia and Bermuda; any others?
Cool would be Bent, Rye, and Fescue. (Is fescue considered cool season?)
David and Mac,
This'll be more info than you want, and hopefully I'll get a chime in from some dudes like Mahaffey, Beck, Nysse, and Larson to clarify my answer.
Grasses all belong to the family Gramineae, of which there are six subfamilies. Only three subfamilies of grass are used for golf. Pooid, chloroid, and panicoid.
Pooid (cool season or festucoid) grasses typically grow best in subarctic, tenmperate, and sometimes even subtropical cliates. They are a bimodal plant that has two primary growth periods, spring and fall. They are best kept at a temperature between 60 and 75 degrees, hence the trouble with cool season grasses during hot summers. They include the bentgrasses, ryegrasses, fescue grasses, and bluegrasses.
Chloroid grasses are a warm season grass. They are found mostly in subtropical and tropical climates and sometimes (rarely) in temperate climates. They are best kept at a temp range of 80 to 95 degrees. Due to this temp range, they are a unimodal growth pattern plant, with most shoots and roots grown during the late spring to early fall. They are also a "dormancy seeking" plant in winter--unlike their cool season counterparts. For the purposes of golf, the chloroids are bermuda and all hybrid bermudas, zoysia and any off shoots of zoysia.
Panicoid grasses are a warm season grass found exclusively in subtropical and tropical climates. They also survive best between 80 and 95 degrees and display a unimodal growth pattern. They differ from chloroids mostly in blade width and water requirements (more). Turfs used for golf in this family include St. Augustine, Kikuyu and Papsalum.
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What I think I know:
Bent grass is the best grass for greens (or so 'they' say), but it is not very tolerant to high temperatures such as in the south (leading to fans around greens or the inability to have bent grass).
However, if the bermuda grass greens at East Lake and Cassique (to name two) are so good, pure and quick, and are easily maintained in high temps, what the heck is the point of struggling to keep bent greens in the south? I played Cassique last April and the greens were fantastic (true and quick)...What gives?
If you would have played any course in Atlanta with bent grass greens in April they would be or at least should be perfect; Bent is perfect for our area from September through June; they are only stressed typically July and August as to where the Bermuda goes dormant from October thru May; in dormancy it can provide a good putting service but none the less it is dormant.
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Our greens at Atlanta Country Club are an absolute dream right now; perfection and really have been all year. Even in July and August they were good, not firm by any means but still healthy and rolling around 10. Now they are perfection and will remain that way until next July but with our Super even in July and August he keeps them very very good.
We do probably have some newer strains of bent as we replaced our old bent greens around 01-02?
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Is anyone having trouble typing in the box when you hit "quote"; it won't let me scroll to the bottom so I can't see what I am actually typing.
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What is the problem with dormant grass?
Not green? (August complex)
Not regenerative?
Doesn't play as well?
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I like pooid best; sounds the funniest.
Basically I gathered
Cool Season: Rye, Bent, Fescue, Bluegrass
Warm: Zoysia and Bermuda, Paspalum, Kikuyu.
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George - the central problem with playing on dormant grasses is that, as you suggest, because it's not growing, it lacks the capacity to regenerate. Thus, while the grass is dormant, the condition can only get worse. Fine early in the period of dormancy, possibly fine throughout if there's not much traffic, but for courses where the majority of play happens while the grass is dormant, it's going to be a mess after a few months.
I love playing on dormant bermuda - it is a great surface, fast and bouncy. But you can't put 20,000 rounds through a golf course that isn't growing and expect it to be in decent nick by the end of that time.
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What is the problem with dormant grass?
The fact that it is not growing
Not green? (August complex)
Not familar with the August complex; in Atlanta must be a fear of getting hot
Not regenerative?
Doesn't play as well?
No it really doesn't; the bermuda we have in Ga in the winter is typically rather nasty and muddy. Dormant Bermuda greens play okay but I prefer to play my golf on grass that has some green in it.
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Ben Sims...thanks man. The more information the better for me as I don't know very much about grass...but want to learn.
Thanks!!
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Top 100 Courses with bentgrass greens, bermuda fws, etc
Augusta National (overseeded)
Pinehurst #2
Southern Hills
Shadow Creek (bent tees/approaches)
The Quarry at La Quinta (overseeded)
LACC
Estancia (overseeded)
Eagle Point
Sage Valley (overseeded)
You can add Royal Melbourne, NSW and Kingston Heath to this category.
All the Melbourne sandbelt courses are Bermuda fairways with bent or poa greens (at the present time).
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Dormant Bermuda greens play okay but I prefer to play my golf on grass that has some green in it.
This is the Augusta complex ;)
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Royal Adelaide.
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Corky, you've been hitting the books. I thought you were at McGruber school learning how to fight off intruders with a paper clip. Glad you still have the time to keep up with the classes.
If any way possible you should make a quick field trip to visit me as two weeks of cool dry air and warm breezy days has produced a fine specimen worthy of close study.
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Ally,
All of the Australian courses on the list except Barnbougle have Bermuda fairways and bent greens.
All of the Japanese courses have zoysia fairways and either bent or zoysia greens (or both!). I presume it's the same for the one Korean course, but I have never been there.
I've never been to Valderrama, but I would guess that like El Saler, it has Bermuda fairways and bent greens. Don't know about the course in Portugal that is on the list.
Teeth of the Dog and Cabo del Sol are all paspalum now I believe. Durban Country Club is, as well ... They've always had a native paspalum throughout the course.
I believe that's all of them outside the US courses that have already been covered.
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Ally,
All of the Australian courses on the list except Barnbougle have Bermuda fairways and bent greens.
All of the Japanese courses have zoysia fairways and either bent or zoysia greens (or both!). I presume it's the same for the one Korean course, but I have never been there.
I've never been to Valderrama, but I would guess that like El Saler, it has Bermuda fairways and bent greens. Don't know about the course in Portugal that is on the list.
Teeth of the Dog and Cabo del Sol are all paspalum now I believe. Durban Country Club is, as well ... They've always had a native paspalum throughout the course.
I believe that's all of them outside the US courses that have already been covered.
We are astill 419 everywhere with Tifeagle greens