Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Ryan Farrow on October 04, 2010, 10:49:09 AM
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Agree, Disagree?
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Though thoroughly agruementative, the narrow fairways with ultra high rough to frustrate the long and crooked combined with slower green speeds have probably lead to an American dis-orientation and thus the loss.
Please disagree.
Congrats Euros!
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Agree, Disagree?
Agree 100%.
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Agree. The Ryder Cup is about the competition...the spirit of competition. Even the fact that the home side can choose and tweak the course setup makes it about the competition. While certain courses might provide for more interesting shots, decisions or options, it is still the competition that makes the viewing most compelling.
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Of course not. But then again, neither is the US Open or the Open championship. It's about the competition and the drama that builds and the storylines that develop. Winning at one course or another might make it more special for a player (or a squad in a team event), but we have so many examples of terrific golf at mundane courses in major championships that this question is the equivalent of a tap-in.
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When the course is the sole cause for having a Monday finish, then it becomes about the course.
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I would disagree in the sense that a story line can be made more compelling by the history of a place, particularly if the event had been held at that place previously. There were a few compelling venues that hosted Ryder Cup events which would make the Cup even more entertaining if it revisted. The competition and matches certainly become the main story as it comes near the conclusion, but I would think the place could add some drama leading up to the event and in the early stages, but at some point that story gives way to the action.
While this is undeniably correct, there are more important factors that the planners of a Ryder Cup look for. Mainly, they need amphitheater like areas for crowds to sit and watch the action at the final five holes, because there is precious little golf to watch in a Ryder Cup. They also need space for huge Jumbotron television sets, because it's incredibly hard to see any golf in a Ryder Cup unless you sit at the same spot for hours and watch the same shot over and over and over again. Then, they need room for corporate tents, where thousands of people who traveled thousands of miles to watch golf live instead watch golf on big televisions while noshing and cocktailing. The golf course, unfortunately, is usually secondary. Sure, I'd love to see the Ryder Cup played at Pennard or Royal St. David's, but I rather doubt that they would be able or willing to chop up their facility for an event of this magnitude.
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One can only dream "This is the Worst Ryder Cup Ever (because of the golf course)" thread will never appear again on these pages.
But that is probably asking too much...
You can play the Ryder Cup on a local muni and still be exciting. I don't think the courses matter as much in matchplay settings.
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I'd even argue professional golf - period - isn't about the course.
Perhaps the most gripping major of the past decade was The US Open at Torrey Pines, a course most on this site dismiss.
Professional sport is about the gladiators and the storylines they create. It's nice to see great courses, but it's well down the list of things that make a tournament.
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Agree. The Ryder Cup is about the competition...the spirit of competition. Even the fact that the home side can choose and tweak the course setup makes it about the competition. While certain courses might provide for more interesting shots, decisions or options, it is still the competition that makes the viewing most compelling.
I agree with this. And when you get down to it, even the ability to set up course conditions to favor certain players is somewhat overblown. On any given day, for golfers at this level, the most crooked driver on tour can hit every fairway, and the most accurate driver can hit it all over the yard. The best a captain can hope to do is set up the course to make his players comfortable. There is so little separating those 24 guys that it really makes for compelling viewing.
From an architecture standpoint, we can complain about the 15th hole to the extent that, despite the claims, it really doesn't present two options. Did even one player go for the fairway on the left side? But from a fan's perspective, I thought that hole made for great TV.
So to answer the OP's question, I'd agree and disagree. The Ryder isn't necessarily about the course, but the course is definitely part of the storyline. However, I would say that the Ryder Cup doesn't have to be played on a great course to produce a great event with plenty of drama.
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I'd even argue professional golf - period - isn't about the course.
Perhaps the most gripping major of the past decade was The US Open at Torrey Pines, a course most on this site dismiss.
Professional sport is about the gladiators and the storylines they create. It's nice to see great courses, but it's well down the list of things that make a tournament.
Gotta disagree. I personally preferred Shinney 04 and Sandwich in 03 - without Tiger's knee problems, Torrey probably would have been a snooze.
In the end, it is of course about the players, but the venue can add or subtract hugely.
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Yeah but George that's like saying that Moby Dick would have been lousy without the whale. Tiger winning on one leg was a pretty compelling story!
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I'd have to agree that the course is secondary to the competition and who is in the competition, including the personalities of who are Captains. You can't hold it in a non-mediable market, or without strong local golf populations. The course has to be tough enough, and idealy marginally quirky here and there, with ability for crowd management. But, I think it comes down to the personalities competing, their selection of playing to earn spots then captiain picks.
I'm going to be curious how Medinah comes through this. It should stack up if the players are well matched up and teams are solid.
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I disagree. We have just seen how a course can effect course of events. It doesn't in the least mean either team gains an advantage because of it, but the course does play an important role. I would also agree with Kelly in that the history of a course (and thus usually better fan knowledge of said course) can be a boon and enhance the crowd enjoyment.
Ciao
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It certainly part of competition and very major part as is the conditions. From the Tees to each first contact with the ground the course plays a very major part, just like the Greens and the pin positions. Of course its the course, what about the poor weather conditions at The Open over the last few years, its was the course that could be counted upon, it was the only key reilable factor in the whole event.
Its always the course that tests the quality of the players, no matter how good he/she is they are nothing without the course so it is very much about the course.
Melvyn
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Yeah but George that's like saying that Moby Dick would have been lousy without the whale. Tiger winning on one leg was a pretty compelling story!
That's kinda my point, the story was Tiger's leg, not the venue. In many other Opens, the venue is at least part of the story. I guess to a small degree Torrey played a role in that it was the course Tiger most wanted to win an Open on, so maybe he wouldn't have played if it were somewhere else, but that's a bit of a stretch to me.
Would the famed Hogan's 1 iron photo be as special if it were a 7 iron into some random hole? I don't know, maybe it would, but I think Merion plays a part.
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I agree that the course is secondary to the drama and competition. But the real issue for most here is rather the knock-on effects these courses have on the rest of the industry and GCA after the event's over and the tents and bleachers have been dismantled.
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I agree that the course is secondary to the drama and competition. But the real issue for most here is rather the knock-on effects these courses have on the rest of the industry and GCA after the event's over and the tents and bleachers have been dismantled.
Jud:
Do you really believe that? Does the industry really follow the (very few) courses that receive prominent exposure? I think you can narrow that argument down to one course -- Augusta National -- and the emphasis on making courses look pretty.
I am struck, in visiting some golf course websites, how many Florida courses (heck, a lot of courses everywhere) refer to some mound-lined, treeless hole with a few deep bunkers as "Scottish-style" links. Um, no...
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Uh, yes...
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Examples, please... :D (I gave mine already...)
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Maybe it is about the course but just not in the ways we would like it to be. If the Ryder cup is all about the money, which it is, they need to ensure the audience and TV ratings are as high as possible. The Ryder cup achieves these large audiences, and hence large revenue, because it attracts viewers who do not watch golf at any other time. I know many friends and colleagues who have commented on the Ryder Cup who never normally care for golf.
Would these "casual" fans enjoy watching the players battle against a course, for example a classic links, playing shots that the connoisseurs of the game would enjoy or do they enjoy the target golf we have seen all this week. I would think that the time of year for holding the event will be criticised by the masses but not the course. Seeing balls fired at pin from 200 yards and stopping within two feet will have been great viewing for many.
If this is the type of golf the organisers want then the choice of course is important.
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Phil,
I'm just saying broadly that these tournament courses serve their purpose for the events, then have a negative knock-on effect. It's mostly all the stuff we jabber about incessantly on here, length, overwatered, target golf. But imagine a 13 year old Welsh kid who just picked up the game with his buddies at the local muni. His dad doesn't belong to a club or play golf. One of his schoolmates' dad was volunteering at the tournament and at the last minute gained access to a couple of passes for the boys. Now they see this thrilling event at the 2010 course featuring the best players in the world. They go back to the local muni and fantasize about draining the winning putt at the famous Championship course down the road and maybe even getting to play that very course one day. etc., etc., etc....
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I disagree, and I'm surprised that more people on this board do not care about the venues for tournaments.
The Masters would not be the same without Augusta National. Why? Because the COURSE facilitates drama, tests players' physical and mental fortitude, and creates a great mix of challenge and luck. The Masters would not be as legendary if it were played a course without Amen Corner, without the two gambling par fives at 13 and 15, and without the infamous greens to test the golfer every step of the way. The course creates the drama through great architecture that tests a player in the mental realm as well as the physical realm. Great courses also inspire great play and great fun.
This challenge should be no different for the Ryder Cup. The Ryder Cup should be played on a course that embodies the spirit of the game and inspires great play. Different courses can do this very well. It could be the Ocean Course, that forced players to let all emotions hang out and battle the elements. Or it could be The Country Club, which was the original site of American golf's triumph over European invaders. Ultimately, the course creates and inspires the competition, and it preserves the spirit of golf. Refusing to play major tournaments like the Ryder Cup at great golf courses means refusing to provide the best possible test and atmosphere for the game's greatest championships. That, quite simply, is inexcusable.
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They should move their slow hand/club game indoors and leave the outdoor courses to (the apparently few) people who still like to play golf.
Wouldn't moving the game to virtual golf courses -- where all variables can be controlled -- be the perfect answer to all of the "fairness" fans? It really isn't fair that the early groups face weather that changes during the day and later groups don't deal with the same conditions. With virtual golf you can make every face the exact same weather.
And for all you fans of GCA, wouldn't designing virtual golf courses be much easier? No longer any need to get dirty, fall into bogs, or have to spend months on site. You could design your course form anywhere in the world. And to do something like lengthen the course no need to buy real estate or screw up the routing. You can add length with the push of a button.
Cheers,
Dan King
Instead of dirt and poison we have rather chosen to fill our hives with honey and wax; thus furnishing mankind with the two noblest of things, which are sweetness and light.
--Jonathan Swift
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It could be the Ocean Course, that forced players to let all emotions hang out and battle the elements. Or it could be The Country Club, which was the original site of American golf's triumph over European invaders.
I must be just dense, but can you please explain to me how The Ocean Course forced players to let all emotions hang out, but Celtic Manor didn't? Did you even watch today or yesterday? If that is not all emotions hanging out, then I must have been watching a wrong program. Exactly what GCA feature(s) lets "players to let all emotions hang out"?
And if we go by your The Country Club example, does that mean no new golf course should ever even dream about hosting a major event because they do not have the history? How are we going to make new history if we don't play on new courses? How is revisiting the same old venue always better? Belfry has plenty of memorable Ryder Cup moments, but still GCA leave a lot to be desired. Does it get a pass because of its history?
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They should move their slow hand/club game indoors and leave the outdoor courses to (the apparently few) people who still like to play golf.
Wouldn't moving the game to virtual golf courses -- where all variables can be controlled -- be the perfect answer to all of the "fairness" fans? It really isn't fair that the early groups face weather that changes during the day and later groups don't deal with the same conditions. With virtual golf you can make every face the exact same weather.
And for all you fans of GCA, wouldn't designing virtual golf courses be much easier? No longer any need to get dirty, fall into bogs, or have to spend months on site. You could design your course form anywhere in the world. And to do something like lengthen the course no need to buy real estate or screw up the routing. You can add length with the push of a button.
Cheers,
Dan King
Instead of dirt and poison we have rather chosen to fill our hives with honey and wax; thus furnishing mankind with the two noblest of things, which are sweetness and light.
--Jonathan Swift
Dan- Are you employing sarcasm or do you have a contract with EA Sports? ;)
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It could be the Ocean Course, that forced players to let all emotions hang out and battle the elements. Or it could be The Country Club, which was the original site of American golf's triumph over European invaders.
I must be just dense, but can you please explain to me how The Ocean Course forced players to let all emotions hang out, but Celtic Manor didn't? Did you even watch today or yesterday? If that is not all emotions hanging out, then I must have been watching a wrong program. Exactly what GCA feature(s) lets "players to let all emotions hang out"?
And if we go by your The Country Club example, does that mean no new golf course should ever even dream about hosting a major event because they do not have the history? How are we going to make new history if we don't play on new courses? How is revisiting the same old venue always better? Belfry has plenty of memorable Ryder Cup moments, but still GCA leave a lot to be desired. Does it get a pass because of its history?
Richard, I'm saying history can be part of it. The Ocean Course is an excellent course and a great Ryder Cup venue, but it had no prior history. History itself does not a Ryder Cup venue make. However, the history of American golf at The Country Club (along with some great GCA, I might add) made the event that much more special. Ben Crenshaw's book talks a lot about his reverence for the Country Club and why he thought it was so special in '99. Just like Augusta makes the Masters more special and St. Andrews makes the Open more special, both because of their architecture and their histories, a great venue can make a Ryder Cup that much better.
As for emotions, I would argue that my first point (players battling the elements) played a part in inducing my second (letting emotions fly). The Ocean Course was a raw test of golf that brought out the best and worst in guys. The emotions there ran higher than ever too. Seve's allegations of cheating towards Azinger and Beck, Calc's collapse and hyperventilation on the beach, Langer's grimace, and Stockton's victory swim in the Atlantic Ocean were all examples of how that Ryder Cup went emotionally above and beyond.
This isn't to say that drama cannot occur on a less than great course. However, I think a truly great venue produces truly great golf.
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JNC-
Put down Shackelford's "The Future of Golf" for a minute. It's really not as dire as it seems.
I'm trying to find your logic but I'm really lost. This Ryder Cup produced about as much exciting golf, great play, emotions, and drama as any recent golf event that I can recall. Yet, it showcased all that is wrong with modern golf? Wow.
Did it inspire great play? You bet. Embody the spirit of the game? Yup. Did it create and inspire competition? Sure would seem so. Preserve the spirit of golf? Every competitor said the game of golf was the true winner this weekend.
Please help me out. I like classic golf courses as much as the next guy but I'm struggling....
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Tim Martin writes:
Dan- Are you employing sarcasm or do you have a contract with EA Sports?
No contract, but I am job hunting -- if anyone there is interested in hiring me.
There are people who think any changes toward fairness in golf is a good thing. You will not truly get fairness on a golf course because there are far too many things in nature that are beyond the control of the organizers. The way to handle that is to move the game away form the messy out-of -doors and into places that aren't messy and where climates can be controlled. It worked for the NFL and I fail to see why it can't work for the PGA Tour.
Perhaps this will mean all these "fairness" police will follow their heroes indoors and leave the outdoor golf courses to those that like the inconsistencies inherent in the outdoor game.
Cheers,
Dan King
So many people preach equity in golf. Nothing is so foreign to the truth. Does any human being receive what he conceives as equity in his life? He has got to take the bitter with the sweet, and as he forges through all the intricacies and inequalities which life presents, he proves his metal. In golf the cardinal rules are arbitrary and not founded on eternal justice. Equity has nothing to do with the game itself. If founded on eternal justice the game would be deadly dull to watch and play.
--Charles Blair Macdonald
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JNC-
Put down Shackelford's "The Future of Golf" for a minute. It's really not as dire as it seems.
I'm trying to find your logic but I'm really lost. This Ryder Cup produced about as much exciting golf, great play, emotions, and drama as any recent golf event that I can recall. Yet, it showcased all that is wrong with modern golf? Wow.
Did it inspire great play? You bet. Embody the spirit of the game? Yup. Did it create and inspire competition? Sure would seem so. Preserve the spirit of golf? Every competitor said the game of golf was the true winner this weekend.
Please help me out. I like classic golf courses as much as the next guy but I'm struggling....
Jason,
I was focused less on the results of match and more on how the game was being played. When I looked at how the game was being played this weekend I did not like what I saw: soggy conditions, heavy use of water hazards and long rough, LCP, 100% dollar-driven event, play slower than molasses. A lot of this can be chalked up to the venue.
The drama might have been there for the average TV viewer, but from what I saw on Saturday, it was like watching paint dry. I did not get this feeling from other Ryder Cups. The way the matches were conducted made it worse for me. I'm not saying those 91 and 99 Cups were not perfect. However, I see a lot more emotions from those events than I do from this one.
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Dan King,
O/T, but how long does it take you to find a golf quote relevant for every one of your posts? I like it.
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JNC-
Not sure you were aware of this, but it sure rained pretty hard in Wales the last few days. As Dan King likes to point out, we play golf outdoors so the conditions are bound to be a bit soggy. The fact the course held out is remarkable, but not surprising as the folks that built it have a decent idea of the weather patterns out that way.
As I mentioned on another post, the only true 'hazards' for the top professionals are water and heavy rough. If it goes in the lake they can't hit it, and rough at least presents a challenge. That's pretty much it. LCP? Who cares, that horse is beaten. 99.999999999% of the people who play golf on this planet don't care. 100% dollar driven? AWESOME! I love it. As someone that regularly attends major championships and Ryder Cups, that's my favorite part! Go spectate some time. If they weren't dollar driven they wouldn't exist. And slow play? Relax, it's the pros. Believe me, it's been the same for every Ryder Cup I've watched or seen up close. This year was not different. 1999 was played at glacial speed. And the emotions this year were argulably more raw than 1999 or 1991 as well....check out the US press conference following today's play. Mahan made Calcavecchia look like a rock.
If you can separate championship golf from the golf you and I play, you will enjoy both elements much more--trust me.
Again, I'm just lost on your argument.
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Jason Walker,
you ask if it inspired great play. I am not sure it did, certainly it inspired what looked like great play. For those top pros was it really such a great performance to fire at a pin and know the ball would stop dead?
Would you not agree that there is a nagging doubt the players were not really forced to think about the shots they were being asked to play?
Although as pointed out the drama was there and for any golf fan it would have been hard not to get sucked into the excitement of the finish.
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JNC-
Not sure you were aware of this, but it sure rained pretty hard in Wales the last few days. As Dan King likes to point out, we play golf outdoors so the conditions are bound to be a bit soggy. The fact the course held out is remarkable, but not surprising as the folks that built it have a decent idea of the weather patterns out that way.
As I said before, this problem would have been solved if the Ryder Cup were played at a proper UK venue, i. e. A LINKS.
As I mentioned on another post, the only true 'hazards' for the top professionals are water and heavy rough. If it goes in the lake they can't hit it, and rough at least presents a challenge.
These hazards are limit the most interesting and thrilling part of the game, the recovery shot. That's a bad thing.
That's pretty much it. LCP? Who cares, that horse is beaten. 99.999999999% of the people who play golf on this planet don't care. 100% dollar driven? AWESOME! I love it. As someone that regularly attends major championships and Ryder Cups, that's my favorite part! Go spectate some time. If they weren't dollar driven they wouldn't exist.
None of the current majors exist or were originally started because of money. If I had to choose watching the PGA Championship at a mediocre venue vs. the Walker Cup at a great venue, I'd pick the one that makes less money, the Walker Cup.
And slow play? Relax, it's the pros. Believe me, it's been the same for every Ryder Cup I've watched or seen up close.
The pros set the example on pace of play with endless pre-shot routines. Thus, we have the slow play epidemic of today's golf.
This year was not different. 1999 was played at glacial speed. And the emotions this year were argulably more raw than 1999 or 1991 as well....check out the US press conference following today's play. Mahan made Calcavecchia look like a rock.
If you can separate championship golf from the golf you and I play, you will enjoy both elements much more--trust me.
Part of what makes golf great is that we play by the same rules at every level. This isn't like Little League where they put a moratorium on stealing until you are 12. Golf is great because it has had the same rules at every level. Why does this suddenly have to change now?
Again, I'm just lost on your argument.
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Ross-
My question was rhetorical in nature in response to JNC's post, but the play the last four days was as inspired as I can recall. Did the weather and conditions alter some decisions? No question, but no different than other events where the elements played a role.
It was GREAT play whether they knew they could shoot at the flag, or whether they knew they needed to land the ball 8 yards short to account for firm greens. For the most part it doesn't matter to these guys. You still have to execute the shot under IMMENSE pressure and for every great shot there was another wedge to 40 feet because the competitor couldn't handle the pressure. Strategic 'thinking' is essentially meaningless for these guys, whatever course they're on.
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Michael Blake asks:
O/T, but how long does it take you to find a golf quote relevant for every one of your posts? I like it.
A common misconception. In reality I have a few dozen quotes banging around in my head. I only respond to posts where what I say matches one of the quotes I have stuck in my brain.
I started adding quotes back in the R.S.G. days. I added the quotes to get more people to read my oh-so-valuable opinions. I started collecting quotes and did that for a while. Now I have a few thousand different golf quotes. I've grown bored with golf quotes and started adding other quotes I find.
Cheers,
Dan King
I might repeat to myself, slowly and soothingly, a list of quotations beautiful from minds profound; if I can remember any of the damn things.
--Dorothy Parker
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Isn't golf always about the course (at least in some substantial part)? Sure the players are battling with each other, but the course majorly affects the the tactics.
Richard,
I put extra emphasis on the choice of course when it comes to match play, because that tends to offer the opportunity to unshackle the players and allow them to engage the course in a riskier manner than would be acceptable in stroke play. For example, Jack Nicklaus used to say that to hit it right of the Principle's Nose on 16 at the TOC was strictly the amateur play, but in a four ball match I bet he tries that shot (much to our delight).
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JNC-
Not sure you were aware of this, but it sure rained pretty hard in Wales the last few days. As Dan King likes to point out, we play golf outdoors so the conditions are bound to be a bit soggy. The fact the course held out is remarkable, but not surprising as the folks that built it have a decent idea of the weather patterns out that way.
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"The course held out"?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Did you not notice that play was held up, delayed, postponed, etc.?????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Did you not notice that every golf news media of any sort worth it's salt reported, that while they couldn't play at Celtic Manor, play was not stopped at nearby links courses where the courses actually did hold up. ???????????????????????????????????????????????????
This was the worst Ryder Cup ever. Why? Because a golf competition is a drama that plays out live. There is only one performance of that drama, and because the course did not hold up, that performance happened without the audience that had been scheduled for it on Sunday morning. Instead it played out while while a significant portion of the constituents of one of the parties to that drama was sleeping. Or, even if some of those constituents got up early to watch the drama play out, couldn't watch, because the medium was online through PGA.com, which was never intended to carry such a load, and so failed to deliver.
When performances on Broadway fail by that much in attaining their audience, they are canceled.
The Ryder Cup of 2010, will go down as one of the most forgettable, as most won't even have seen it to even been in the position of forgetting it.
Ryder Cup 2010. The unseen wonder in Wales. Forget about it!
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Garland,
I think blaming the course for the fact that the sun sets earlier in the UK than it does in the USA takes the biscuit for absurd complaints that have been made on this absurd thread.
Jason,
What do you know about weather patterns in South Wales? Or are you basing your comment on what happened this weekend? As I understand it, it's been quite wet in the eastern USA this past few days. Would, for instance, Bethpage have been playable this weekend? It didn't do awfully well in June last year. If this Ryder Cup had been played in mid-September when it was initially scheduled, the weather would have been fine. This weekend has seen exceptional rain fall in Wales just as elsewehere in the world. The organisers got unlucky with the weather but would have had a better chance if Mr Finchem hadn't interfered with the schedule in a desperate attempt to generate some interest in his tour after the end of the PGA Championship.
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You can never be 100% sure you won't get rained off at any time of the year, but playing the Ryder Cup in GB&I in September is less risky than playing it on October. It shouldn't have been held back until October.
I just checked the UK Met office web page and the weather station closest to Celtic Manor with data is Cardiff Bute Park. Doing a quick calculation, it turns out that the average rainfall in October since 1977 is 127 mm (for 9 of those years it was over 150 mm). Compare that with one of the windiest and wettest places in Ireland, Belmullet (close to Carne) in the west of Ireland which has a mean of 134 mm since 1961. I'm no expert on statistics, and am aware that there is a difference between mean and average (but i can't for the life of me figure it out ;D), but those numbers tell you that that part of Wales is pretty damp. The Dublin area has a mean of only 70 mm of rainfall in October, and the concensus in Ireland is that the Irish Open shouldn't be played outside the months of June-August. This is one of the reasons why the Irish Open was moved this year; nobody wanted a repeat of Baltray 2009 or the K-Club 2006.
Some have said that the east of Scotland manages to hold the Dunhill every year, but Leuchars (nearest weather station) has an average of 77 mm (for 2 of those years it was over 150 mm) over the same time period as quoted for Cardiff Bute Park. As for the World Matchplay at Wentworth, I'm pretty sure the rainfall there is well below 70 mm. I once heard that East Anglia gets the same amount of rainfall as Israel. Can anybody confirm that ???
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Garland,
I think blaming the course for the fact that the sun sets earlier in the UK than it does in the USA takes the biscuit for absurd complaints that have been made on this absurd thread.
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Mark,
My complaint had nothing to do with "the fact that the sun sets earlier in the UK than it does in the USA". So the biscuit is back on you.
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Garland,
I think blaming the course for the fact that the sun sets earlier in the UK than it does in the USA takes the biscuit for absurd complaints that have been made on this absurd thread.
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Mark,
My complaint had nothing to do with "the fact that the sun sets earlier in the UK than it does in the USA". So the biscuit is back on you.
Garland,
I don't understand. Do you sleep different hours on Sunday nights?
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Whereas standing water at Celtic Manor caused play to be suspended multiple times. And whereas, these suspensions forced rescheduling of the final matches. And whereas, at nearby links courses play continued on. Be it therefore resolved that Celtic Manor is the worst Ryder Cup course in recent memory.
Whereas, a golf competition such as the Ryder Cup is a one time performance of a drama. And whereas, drama is performed for an audience. And whereas, due to the inadequate course for this Ryder Cup this drama had a small fraction of the audience that should have been in attendance. Be it therefore resolved that this was the worst Ryder Cup in recent memory.
Comprende pardner?
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So, by following that logic, The US Open at Bethpage was the worst one ever and any other event where rain causes delay is automatic "worst ever".
Does that mean that next they have a Ryder Cup delayed due to weather, it automatically becomes worst ever? But then what about this one? Do they tie?
Again, following that logic, should we not play all golf tournaments in Sahara or at least Death Valley so that we never have to deal with rain?
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Again, following that logic, should we not play all golf tournaments in Sahara or at least Death Valley so that we never have to deal with rain?
Richard,
If they play it at Chambers Bay in whatever rain that may occur, I'm happy. ;)
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Seriously Richard,
When greed causes bad decisions, you start getting worst evers.
E.g., the mortgage back security debacle of recent occurrence.
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Garland, the day after Old MacDonald opening, the rains were so heavy it was unplayable and this was during June. And if it can happen there, it can happen anywhere.
It is quite unfair to blame courses or events for nature's random occurances.
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Garland, the day after Old MacDonald opening, the rains were so heavy it was unplayable and this was during June. And if it can happen there, it can happen anywhere.
It is quite unfair to blame courses or events for nature's random occurances.
Exactly how long was it unplayable?
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Garland, the day after Old MacDonald opening, the rains were so heavy it was unplayable and this was during June. And if it can happen there, it can happen anywhere.
It is quite unfair to blame courses or events for nature's random occurances.
Unplayable for some perhaps. I played 36 at Pacific Dunes that morning and afternoon. Soaked through my bad rain gear and ruined a digital camera in the process but the course was playable. No standing water on any of the greens and only minimal puddling on the fairways. I was still putting from more than 25 yards off the green. In fact, I'm pretty sure that not only did I play 36 holes but that I played the ball down as well. Perhaps Mr. Mayhugh can help me recall if there was any plugging or lifting, cleaning, and replacing in the morning but I don't think so. I played the afternoon round alone, and I'm pretty sure I played it as it lied.
That being said, I disagree with just about everything Garland has said on this thread.
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Unplayable for some...
All I saw was puddles on the putting green next to my room and rain was only getting heavier. That was enough for me to start driving back home. I am sure a few brave souls including you ventured out, but if there was any type of pro tournament going on, it probably would have been weather delayed, LPC or not.
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...
That being said, I disagree with just about everything Garland has said on this thread.
OK, let's make it agreeable.
I would suggest that a generous estimate of the interested parties for the Ryder Cup that will remember how it came down to the end in 6 months time is 10% which are for the most part golf geeks. For that small percentage of the audience, it might be classified as a great Ryder Cup. However, for the vast majority of the audience, it is an enjoyable drama to watch play out. When it's done they have been entertained by all of the various subplots that have taken place and the climax which has been reached when the final winning putt has been holed. After that, it soon becomes a distant memory. Therefore, for the majority of the interested parties this Ryder Cup was a bomb. It raised comments like, "does it seem to you that professional golfers are postponing and canceling play a lot more than they used to" from my partner in the seniors tournament I played yesterday. Before, money became such an overriding concern, the USGA would have scheduled the US Open at Bethpage to suit it needs, instead of the needs of a multibillion dollar business, called PGA Tour. Played at a suitable time the US Open at Bethpage would have been a far more satisfactory result for the vast majority of the interested parties to the drama that it is.
Is that more agreeable Mr. Golf Geek Bert? Mr. Golf Geek Choi?
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Unplayable for some...
... I am sure a few brave souls including you ventured out, but if there was any type of pro tournament going on, it probably would have been weather delayed, LPC or not.
Is it possible Mr. Tim Bert that you agree with this assessment? I certainly doubt it.
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Unplayable for some...
... I am sure a few brave souls including you ventured out, but if there was any type of pro tournament going on, it probably would have been weather delayed, LPC or not.
Is it possible Mr. Tim Bert that you agree with this assessment? I certainly doubt it.
I would 100% percent agree that they wouldn't have played any scheduled tournament on June 2nd, 2010 at Bandon Dunes resort.
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"No standing water on any of the greens and only minimal puddling on the fairways."
So why wouldn't they play. Afraid of someone catching a cold?
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"Before, money became such an overriding concern, the USGA would have scheduled the US Open at Bethpage to suit it needs, instead of the needs of a multibillion dollar business, called PGA Tour. Played at a suitable time the US Open at Bethpage would have been a far more satisfactory result for the vast majority of the interested parties to the drama that it is."
Garland -
Are you sure about those comments? It seems to me the US Open has always been played around the 3rd weekend in June, at least as far back as I can remember. Am I mistaken about that? I fail to see how the scheduling of the US Open suits the needs of the PGA Tour. Can you suggest a more "suitable time" to schedule the US Open at Bethpage?
DT
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Looks like the Euros have slightly different perspective. The writer in The Independent describes it as one of the greatest Ryder Cup finishes all time.
"The quagmire of humiliation had been transformed into a sun-filled amphitheatre which produced one of the great Ryder Cup finishes of all time."
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/golf/mcdowells-final-masterstroke-sparks-euphoria-for-team-europe-2097678.html
From The Guardian: "The sport was enthralling, the climax gripping and the celebrations tumultuous as the rain-delayed 2010 Ryder Cup in Wales finally ended yesterday in tears for the losers and buckets of champagne for Colin Montgomerie and his European team."
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Is that more agreeable Mr. Golf Geek Bert? Mr. Golf Geek Choi?
No. Because if the profit was the REAL driver, they would have played out the Sunday singles matches on Sunday. NBC took a beating on ratings and will have to refund the money to the sponsors for the lack of Sunday telecast. There is no way in hell any TV executive would agree to a Monday morning finish for Ryder Cup.
The agreed Monday finish proves that not everything is about the money for the Ryder Cup, not the other way round.
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"No standing water on any of the greens and only minimal puddling on the fairways."
So why wouldn't they play. Afraid of someone catching a cold?
No, because the weather was completely miserable. Steady downpour with winds at 25+. At one point I flushed a 3-iron hybrid off the tee to 130 or 140 yards. You'd have to be a fool to want to play in those conditions. No one would want to play, watch, or officiate. The others in my group are psycho golf travellers as well and they all bagged the afternoon round. It was that bad. I went out alone.
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"Before, money became such an overriding concern, the USGA would have scheduled the US Open at Bethpage to suit it needs, instead of the needs of a multibillion dollar business, called PGA Tour. Played at a suitable time the US Open at Bethpage would have been a far more satisfactory result for the vast majority of the interested parties to the drama that it is."
Garland -
Are you sure about those comments? It seems to me the US Open has always been played around the 3rd weekend in June, at least as far back as I can remember. Am I mistaken about that? I fail to see how the scheduling of the US Open suits the needs of the PGA Tour. Can you suggest a more "suitable time" to schedule the US Open at Bethpage?
DT
David,
I may be over reaching. Unfortunately, I don't have the time to do the research to prove or disprove my assumptions. Not knowing NY weather intimately, I can only suggest July or August as better than mid June.
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Garland -
Seeing how the USGA is headquartered in northern New Jersey and the USGA has been scheduling golf events at Baltusrol, Winged Foot, Shinnecock, Bethpage, etc. etc. since we both were in short pants, I am guessing they know what the June, July & August weather patterns are like in the NY-metro area pretty well. Wouldn't you think?
DT
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Is that more agreeable Mr. Golf Geek Bert? Mr. Golf Geek Choi?
No. Because if the profit was the REAL driver, they would have played out the Sunday singles matches on Sunday. NBC took a beating on ratings and will have to refund the money to the sponsors for the lack of Sunday telecast. There is no way in hell any TV executive would agree to a Monday morning finish for Ryder Cup.
The agreed Monday finish proves that not everything is about the money for the Ryder Cup, not the other way round.
And how would they have managed to play the singles on Sunday? Are you suggesting they should have played in standing water instead of postponing rounds?
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Given a choice of playing in puddles vs Monday finish, it would not even be a question for any TV exec.
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"No standing water on any of the greens and only minimal puddling on the fairways."
So why wouldn't they play. Afraid of someone catching a cold?
No, because the weather was completely miserable. Steady downpour with winds at 25+. At one point I flushed a 3-iron hybrid off the tee to 130 or 140 yards. You'd have to be a fool to want to play in those conditions. No one would want to play, watch, or officiate. The others in my group are psycho golf travellers as well and they all bagged the afternoon round. It was that bad. I went out alone.
Aren't you describing the conditions in which Tom Kite won the US Open?
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Garland -
Seeing how the USGA is headquartered in northern New Jersey and the USGA has been scheduling golf events at Baltusrol, Winged Foot, Shinnecock, Bethpage, etc. etc. since we both were in short pants, I am guessing they know what the June, July & August weather patterns are like in the NY-metro area pretty well. Wouldn't you think?
DT
But would they have scheduled Shakespeare in the Park for June 15, July 15, or August 15? ;)
I have already stated that for golf geeks it was a great Ryder Cup finish. But they lost most of their audience, so as a drama it was a disaster.
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Given a choice of playing in puddles vs Monday finish, it would not even be a question for any TV exec.
??? So why did you bring it up? ???
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"No standing water on any of the greens and only minimal puddling on the fairways."
So why wouldn't they play. Afraid of someone catching a cold?
No, because the weather was completely miserable. Steady downpour with winds at 25+. At one point I flushed a 3-iron hybrid off the tee to 130 or 140 yards. You'd have to be a fool to want to play in those conditions. No one would want to play, watch, or officiate. The others in my group are psycho golf travellers as well and they all bagged the afternoon round. It was that bad. I went out alone.
Aren't you describing the conditions in which Tom Kite won the US Open?
I don`t recall any rain on Sunday of the 1992 U. S. Open. Granted there was plenty of wind but you are talking apples and oranges.
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"No standing water on any of the greens and only minimal puddling on the fairways."
So why wouldn't they play. Afraid of someone catching a cold?
No, because the weather was completely miserable. Steady downpour with winds at 25+. At one point I flushed a 3-iron hybrid off the tee to 130 or 140 yards. You'd have to be a fool to want to play in those conditions. No one would want to play, watch, or officiate. The others in my group are psycho golf travellers as well and they all bagged the afternoon round. It was that bad. I went out alone.
Aren't you describing the conditions in which Tom Kite won the US Open?
I had only just started playing golf at that time because I didn't start until I was a bit older, so I while I recall the Kite victory and probably watched some of the Sunday coverage, I can't say I have a vivid memory of the conditions he faced in the four rounds.
I can say with absolute certainty that he didn't face comparable conditions on Sunday based solely on Google Image searches of him holding the trophy at the ceremony following the tournament. Unless he went in and took a shower and changed clothes before the photo shoot, there's no way he was playing in conditions comparable to those at Bandon on June 2nd. Even if that were his third layer of clothes and he had already peeled off the first two. No way.
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Tim,
I too find it frustrating to quickly get answers from the internet about such things. Perhaps we can take Tim's recollections that there was no rain, whereas I thought there was. Can we agree that the scoring conditions that day were brutal? That leaves you with the contention that had it also rained to the point where there was no puddling on the greens and a few puddles in the fairways they would have canceled for the day and came back on Monday. Personally I doubt it. But then there is the Garland is the only one on the course in the wind and rain situations at my home course too. So perhaps I am all wet.
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Tim,
I too find it frustrating to quickly get answers from the internet about such things. Perhaps we can take Tim's recollections that there was no rain, whereas I thought there was. Can we agree that the scoring conditions that day were brutal? That leaves you with the contention that had it also rained to the point where there was no puddling on the greens and a few puddles in the fairways they would have canceled for the day and came back on Monday. Personally I doubt it. But then there is the Garland is the only one on the course in the wind and rain situations at my home course too. So perhaps I am all wet.
I frequently disagree with you, but sometimes I just don't know what you are saying. In these instances, I find it hard to agree or disagree.
My recollection wasn't that there was no rain. My recollection was that the conditions were not equivalent to those at Bandon on June 2nd. There's certainly room for some rain in that assessment.
I would also guess that if it had indeed rained as much at Pebble Beach that Sunday there would be more puddling on the fairways and greens than there was at Pacific Dunes, but that is just speculation on my part. Since I haven't played Pebble in a torrential downpour that led probably upwards of 80% or 90% of the guests to cancel their tee times I can't say decisively.
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Garland B. & Tim B. -
If you are talking about the conditions at Pebble Beach in the final round of the US Open won by Tom Kite, that was a very, very windy day. There was absolutely no rain at all.
DT
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Well Tim,
Let's get back on track. If there was no wind at Bandon on June 2, would they have played or postponed a tournament?
The issue was the ability of the course to get rid of the water. Celtic Manor failed, thereby failing the audience of the Ryder Cup.
It sounded to me that your assessment was that Bandon did not fail the test of getting rid of the water.
Therefore, I conclude that Bandon would not have failed the audience of the Ryder Cup, nor would have Royal Porthcawl for that matter.
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From Garland B. - "so as a drama, it was a disaster"
From golfdigest.com - "For all the hyperbole often associated with the Ryder Cup, here was one that may have exceeded expectations, one that came down to the last two players on the last day, with seemingly all of Wales jockeying for position just to witness the finish."
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It is my personal opinion that based on the amount of rain that was continuously falling at Bandon Dunes resort on June 2nd they likely would have made the decision to postpone play at a tournament there despite the fact that I think the course held up just fine.
With that I'm done arguing the point. Feel free to disagree since it is my opinion.
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From Garland B. - "so as a drama, it was a disaster"
From golfdigest.com - "For all the hyperbole often associated with the Ryder Cup, here was one that may have exceeded expectations, one that came down to the last two players on the last day, with seemingly all of Wales jockeying for position just to witness the finish."
That's nice for Wales. But what fraction of the anticipated Sunday morning world wide TV audience actually saw the drama? <5% ?
Let's cancel future performances of this drama. The house can't take that kind of loss! ;)
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"But what fraction of the anticipated Sunday morning world wide TV audience actually saw the drama? <5% ?"
Garland -
Look at the bright side. All those who would have watched on Sunday but did not watch on Monday had the purity of their golfing souls spared from having to watch all that slow play under lift, clean & play conditions! ;)
DT
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I spoke to a few guys today who were present at Celtic Manor from early in the week and the tale is one of continuous heavy rain.
Having heard from people who were on the ground for that duration, it really does sound like the course stood up well to what nature threw at it.
As for this "a links wouldn't have flooded" nonsense. It's just that, nonsense.
Here's one from St Andrews on July 15 this year.
(http://news.ladbrokes.com/en-gb/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/StAndrewsBig.jpg)
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Garland, you are making pointless arguments.
The amount of rain coming down was substantial. There may not have been as much puddles, but it would have been almost impossible to hit putts of some distance because of the moisture on the surface. There is no tournament GB&I or otherwise that would have allowed playing in that condition.
I don't care how great the course drains, if the weather is foul enough, they will stop playing. Why is that so hard to understand?
Most of the courses in east coast went through some very difficult conditions this year. We have had many threads about dead greens. Weather is a fickle thing. To blame the tournament for weather is like blaming God for the rush hour traffic and equally pointless.
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I spoke to a few guys today who were present at Celtic Manor from early in the week and the tale is one of continuous heavy rain.
Having heard from people who were on the ground for that duration, it really does sound like the course stood up well to what nature threw at it.
As for this "a links wouldn't have flooded" nonsense. It's just that, nonsense.
Here's one from St Andrews on July 15 this year.
(http://news.ladbrokes.com/en-gb/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/StAndrewsBig.jpg)
Scott-That picture of TOC should be sufficient to close out the argument that a links was the silver bullet.
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Scott W. -
Speaking of a links course flooding, check out this video of the Struie course at Dornoch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uG07LRaX8g
DT
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Garland, you are making pointless arguments.
The amount of rain coming down was substantial. There may not have been as much puddles, but it would have been almost impossible to hit putts of some distance because of the moisture on the surface. There is no tournament GB&I or otherwise that would have allowed playing in that condition.
I don't care how great the course drains, if the weather is foul enough, they will stop playing. Why is that so hard to understand?
Most of the courses in east coast went through some very difficult conditions this year. We have had many threads about dead greens. Weather is a fickle thing. To blame the tournament for weather is like blaming God for the rush hour traffic and equally pointless.
Why is it so hard to understand that play went on at nearby courses?
Why is it so hard to understand that the soils at Celtic Manor made for a disaster ready to happen? I read multiple reports of the total unsuitability of the soils there.
Why is it so hard to understand that even if play would have been stopped at a links course, the stoppage would have been measured in minutes instead of hours?
How does conditions at courses in the NE US pertain when conditions at Royal Porthcawl don't seem to in your opinion?
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I spoke to a few guys today who were present at Celtic Manor from early in the week and the tale is one of continuous heavy rain.
Having heard from people who were on the ground for that duration, it really does sound like the course stood up well to what nature threw at it.
As for this "a links wouldn't have flooded" nonsense. It's just that, nonsense.
Here's one from St Andrews on July 15 this year.
(http://news.ladbrokes.com/en-gb/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/StAndrewsBig.jpg)
Nice picture Scott. Thanks for proving my point!
Did the event at St. Andrews finish at the scheduled time with the full audience in attendance world wide via broadcast?
Did the event at Celtic Manor finish at the scheduled time ...
I rest my case.
;D
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Why is it so hard to understand that play went on at nearby courses?
So what? You should know as well as anyone that micro-weather is a fickle thing. It can be raining cats & dogs here in my backyard but be perfectly dry just below the convergence zone only about 15 miles away.
Also, just because people like TB is out playing does not mean that the weather is suitable for tournament play.
As I said before, this is pointless.
Why is it so hard to understand that the soils at Celtic Manor made for a disaster ready to happen? I read multiple reports of the total unsuitability of the soils there.
Show me ONE report that says CM is a "disaster ready to happen" by any golf course architect or super intendant who have worked on the course or are intimately familiar with the soil there. Some random Internet ramblings do not count. I can give you multiple posts about how 9/11 was staged on the Internet. That does not make the claim any more valid than what you are saying.
If it was so bad how the hell did they resume play within hours after the rain?
Pointless.
Why is it so hard to understand that even if play would have been stopped at a links course, the stoppage would have been measured in minutes instead of hours?
Did you even look at the picture above? Do you think they cleaned that up in minutes? Do you think they would be working like that while it was STILL RAINING LIKE IT DID ALL DAY DURING THE RYDER CUP???
Pointless.
How does conditions at courses in the NE US pertain when conditions at Royal Porthcawl don't seem to in your opinion?
Because it demonstrates that weather (golf) disasters can happen ANYWHERE and usually cannot be foreseen. That is a point that you need to understand.
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Nice picture Scott. Thanks for proving my point!
Did the event at St. Andrews finish at the scheduled time with the full audience in attendance world wide via broadcast?
Did the event at Celtic Manor finish at the scheduled time ...
I rest my case.
;D
How long did it rain at St Andrews? How long did it rain at Celtic Manor?
How could you rest a case without even the very basic and most pertinent information?
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Nice picture Scott. Thanks for proving my point!
Did the event at St. Andrews finish at the scheduled time with the full audience in attendance world wide via broadcast?
Did the event at Celtic Manor finish at the scheduled time ...
I rest my case.
;D
How long did it rain at St Andrews? How long did it rain at Celtic Manor?
How could you rest a case without even the very basic and most pertinent information?
The smiley face was to indicate I was not entirely serious on that one.
I would not bring up Royal Porthcawl if it was not raining there. The golf news media reported that there was equitable rain there when they reported they were still playing there. I would assume that tournament golf will experience some stoppages that recreational golf would not. However, the pro shop at Royal Porthcawl reported essentially no one was stopping play. I would think that some recreational golfers would toss it in as you did at Bandon if the course or weather conditions became too extreme.
Your comparison to 9/11 garbage on the internet is laughable.
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Garland,
One thing we know, because many people made a point of it after the architect spoke to us at BUDA is that a VAST amount was spent on drainage at CM. Indeed, the course drained remakably well. If you saw pictures of it on Sunday morning you would be astonished that play was possible on Sunday afternoon. I imagine it drained about as well as ANY inland course in the UK would.
As to the fact that Porthcawl was in play on the Friday (I don't believe anyone has confirmed its status on the Sunday morning), so what? Did they have 40,000 spectators on site, with the attendant health and safety issues? Do we know whether it was really playable, that is that the greens and fairways were substantially free of standing water, or whether it was merely playable for a few members playing in social matches, where standing water on the greens could be ignored?
There's a lot of nonsense being talked on this thread (and other RC threads) by people presenting conjecture as fact and half-truth as truth. The only relevant facts are that CM was not playable on Friday afternoon or Sunday morning because of a Biblical volume of water falling from the sky. remarkably, given how wet it was, it was fit on Saturday and Sunday afternoon and all day Monday. The crowds appeared good on Monday and I know many of my colleagues got to watch it, so I suspect audiences, though obviously down on the Sunday were reasonable on the Monday. In addition the amount of national press coverage it got over here on the Monday evening was pretty substantial.
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JNC-
Not sure you were aware of this, but it sure rained pretty hard in Wales the last few days. As Dan King likes to point out, we play golf outdoors so the conditions are bound to be a bit soggy. The fact the course held out is remarkable, but not surprising as the folks that built it have a decent idea of the weather patterns out that way.
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"The course held out"?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Did you not notice that play was held up, delayed, postponed, etc.?????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Did you not notice that every golf news media of any sort worth it's salt reported, that while they couldn't play at Celtic Manor, play was not stopped at nearby links courses where the courses actually did hold up. ???????????????????????????????????????????????????
This was the worst Ryder Cup ever. Why? Because a golf competition is a drama that plays out live. There is only one performance of that drama, and because the course did not hold up, that performance happened without the audience that had been scheduled for it on Sunday morning. Instead it played out while while a significant portion of the constituents of one of the parties to that drama was sleeping. Or, even if some of those constituents got up early to watch the drama play out, couldn't watch, because the medium was online through PGA.com, which was never intended to carry such a load, and so failed to deliver.
When performances on Broadway fail by that much in attaining their audience, they are canceled.
The Ryder Cup of 2010, will go down as one of the most forgettable, as most won't even have seen it to even been in the position of forgetting it.
Ryder Cup 2010. The unseen wonder in Wales. Forget about it!
Garland could I get your views on The Open Championship 2010 where play was held up because of the weather? Perhaps you think links courses that hold important tournaments shouldn’t be in such windy locations? The most forgettable?
It’s OK we’ve heard your (erm) thoughts on this, please stop repeating them in longer and longer posts (on line shouting?), now please go and take a nap.
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Garland, you are making pointless arguments.
The amount of rain coming down was substantial. There may not have been as much puddles, but it would have been almost impossible to hit putts of some distance because of the moisture on the surface. There is no tournament GB&I or otherwise that would have allowed playing in that condition.
I don't care how great the course drains, if the weather is foul enough, they will stop playing. Why is that so hard to understand?
Most of the courses in east coast went through some very difficult conditions this year. We have had many threads about dead greens. Weather is a fickle thing. To blame the tournament for weather is like blaming God for the rush hour traffic and equally pointless.
Richard
The difference is a links can resume play much quicker especially with these mega crews working on them. This is why I stated many posts back that Porthcawl likely would have closed down, but play would have been completed that day. I have no idea why folks could even think of challenging this notion because it is fact - links drain far better than inland courses no matter how much is spent on drainage. We also mustn't forget that essentially, CM should have been closed while play was on because winter rules were in effect. The course didn't alllow for proper playing conditions; they were marginal at best and that is a fact. All that said, it doesn't follow that because of the conditions and delayed finish that this was the worst RC ever. Far from it. The damn thing came down to the last match on the 17th green - I enjoyed it.
Ciao
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See told you, no earth worms, lots of surface water ;)
Where Island Greens an early prediction of the floods to come, if so suggest we remove them ASAP ::)
Man cannot play Golf (or its many variations) upon the Water :'(
Set up thine alter to the glory of the humble earth worm or build your courses on Land Fit for Purpose :P
Otherwise just stop moaning, of course it involves the courses otherwise there would be no Ryder Cup - "Simplees" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSIKy3-mnLk&feature=related)
Melvyn