Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Craig Van Egmond on September 23, 2010, 02:48:01 PM
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Sorry if this has already been posted, but I saw it on Geoff's site..
http://www.symposiumonaffordablegolf.com/default.htm
Way to go Richard Mandell!
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Sounds wonderful...and long overdue! I'm all in. Thanks Richard, Ran and the rest of the cast.
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Kris...I agree this sounds like excellent stuff.
I don't know if this is related or not, but I also read aboout Links Magazine's Simpler Game concept. I think it might go hand in hand with Richard's Symposium.
http://www.linksmagazine.com/best_of_golf/a_simpler_game/section_index.aspx (http://www.linksmagazine.com/best_of_golf/a_simpler_game/section_index.aspx)
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do they need any Aussies to contribute, we know how to do affordable golf quite well :)
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No congratulations are in order. Attendance is in order. We need as many people to come to the Symposium on Affordable Golf as possible. There is no cost, so you just have to get yourself to Southern Pines on November 8th and stick around for golf at SPCC the next morning if you can.
The goal with this thing is to not just get the usual industry people involved, but also regular golfers. We are working on getting continuing ed points for supers and golf pros as well. Here are the topics:
Define “Affordable” Group Discussion
8:15 to 9:15
Environmental Tasks That Can Also Make The Game More Affordable
Ron Boyd, Williamsburg Environmental Group, Inc.
Greg Lyman, GCSAA
Kevin Fletcher, Audubon International
The Simplicity of Golf Course Management in the British Isles
Steven Richardson, Golf Course Manager, Sunningdale Golf Club (New)
Case Study #1: To Be Determined
Cost-Conscious Lessons to Learn From the Golden Age
Richard Mandell
Ron Forse
Ran Morrisett
Case Study #2: Herndon Centennial Golf Course, Herndon, Virginia
Pace of Play: Affordable Golf is Quality Golf
Bill Yates, Pace Manager Systems
The Folly of Replicating Tournament Conditions
Tim Moraghan, Aspire Consulting
Jaime Diaz, Senior Golf Writer, Golf Digest/Golf World
Jim Moriarty, Golf Writer
Wrap-Up Discussion/Conversation
Tuesday, November 9 – Golf Outing on Southern Pines Golf Club ($35)
ALTHOUGH THERE IS NO COST TO ATTEND THE SYMPOSIUM, WE DO NEED EVERYONE TO SIGN UP SO WE CAN HAVE A HEAD COUNT. Register at www.symposiumonaffordablegolf.com
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JC, I bumped this for you and the rest of the band on GCA. While I've yet to commit formally, I will be there if I'm breathing. It is somewhat surprising that there hasn't been more banter on this most important matter plaguing our game worldwide.
Many on this site have crowed loudly about the need for affordable golf. Talk's cheap! Be a part of the solution. Some talented, busy folks have been moved enough to arrange this and then issue a call for action. Unless we're content to act the part of armchair phonies, it's time to step it up a little if you can and make an effort.
Cheers 8)
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Very cool. I look forward to participating.
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Richard,
Thank you for pulling this event together. I will do everything in my power to be there... but, it will be tough as I will be in the middle of moving from South Carolina to New York. I wish we had know about this when we were planning the Dixie Cup as it would have been a great complement to that event.
I CANNOT BELIEVE that this thread has less than 500 views!!!
Especially when "Who Designed Shawnee" (which was started about the same time) has over 3400. Who gives a crap who designed Shawnee?
Furthering the efforts to promote affordable golf should be one of the primary goals of this web fraternity!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Why does everyone seem so apathetic to this cause?
I hope everyone within driving distance will make every effort to attend this symposium. Hell, if nothing else, you will get a chance to finally meet your fearless leader, Ran!
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Many on this site have crowed loudly about the need for affordable golf. Talk's cheap! Be a part of the solution. Some talented, busy folks have been moved enough to arrange this and then issue a call for action. Unless we're content to act the part of armchair phonies, it's time to step it up a little if you can and make an effort.
Kris,
How can someone from this board be part of the solution (if they are not building their own golf course)?
This board is already mostly about great golf that makes sense $wise.
Michael
Good luck on the move.
Does Mandell want Ranatics at the event?
How does that help affordable golf?
Cheers
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Many on this site have crowed loudly about the need for affordable golf. Talk's cheap! Be a part of the solution. Some talented, busy folks have been moved enough to arrange this and then issue a call for action. Unless we're content to act the part of armchair phonies, it's time to step it up a little if you can and make an effort.
Kris,
How can someone from this board be part of the solution (if they are not building their own golf course)?
This board is already mostly about great golf that makes sense $wise.
Michael
Good luck on the move.
Does Mandell want Ranatics at the event?
How does that help affordable golf?
Cheers
Mike - I just think that the more attention this gets the better. It's just like our food supply... you only get what you vote for every week with your money. If golfers truly want the kind of courses that I assume this symposium will propose then they should shout its praises.
As for New York... it will be quite an adventure. My wife's business is taking us to Manhattan for a year!!! We move the first week of November.
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I will be in attendance both days, representing St. Alberts By The Barn in my current dual capacity as both Chief Executive Dreamer and Assistant Hay Baler.
Anybody want to try to play the Dormie Club while there?
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Well, I for one, can't afford to travel across country to attend ;)
I hope something productive is done. Will SPCC become accessible to the public at a low price? ;D
There is no doubt that something needs to be done. Many in here ARE trying to do things.
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Mike,
Are you kidding? We can all be part of the discussion my friend. You certainly are trying to create greatness on an affordable model when possible. I've spent considerable time speaking with your Mike Blake, who has shared considerable, valuable insights from
his perspective, that have help increase my awareness from a design standpoint.
Illumination can't begin without discussion. Where it falls flat, is when that's where it ends. We have stuffed suits in abundance, that have all the answers in the conference setting, and do little beynd that to make a real difference.
That's certainly not me. I'm sorry you couldn't make the Muccifest. It was a day filled with stimulating education, on multiple levels. The kind of thing that is in drastically short supply, gathering from my travels. While it wasn't centered around affordable golf, numerous principles offered applied.
When we keep a broad, open mind...it's amazing where some very good ideas and practices can materialize from. If that puts me in the Ranatics camp...sign me up! 8)
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Many on this site have crowed loudly about the need for affordable golf. Talk's cheap! Be a part of the solution. Some talented, busy folks have been moved enough to arrange this and then issue a call for action. Unless we're content to act the part of armchair phonies, it's time to step it up a little if you can and make an effort.
Kris,
How can someone from this board be part of the solution (if they are not building their own golf course)?
This board is already mostly about great golf that makes sense $wise.
Michael
Good luck on the move.
Does Mandell want Ranatics at the event?
How does that help affordable golf?
Cheers
Mike,
To echo the gentleman from South Carolina's comments, you are the solution. You vote with your money and consumer/investor/etc. behavior remains the single best way to affect change.
That is precisely why I am interested in the symposium.
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Will the text and pictures of the gathering be a available?
Bios on the speakers?
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Carl,
The Bios are here:
http://www.symposiumonaffordablegolf.com/default.htm
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Carl,
The Bios are here:
http://www.symposiumonaffordablegolf.com/default.htm
I love how Ran doesn't need a bio... ;)
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A really great event right in my backyard and I am going to be in California having dental work those days. The golf gods are tormenting me. :'(
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Mike & Kris
I wasn't commenting on the event.
I was commenting on your negativity towards the group for not giving this thread more attention.
This site has had more discussions about how great golf and price are not directly correlated - than any where else in the world.
JC
When exactly do I play golf?
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Any chance to set up a video camera and stream the speakers over the internet so we all can watch?
Ustream.tv is one service that is free.
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JC
When exactly do I play golf?
How would I know?
You are right though, I should not have used the very casual "generic you" or "indefinite you." A more proper statement would have been .... one votes with their money.....
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Seems like an interesting couple of days. But as I'm not "in" the industry it's tough to justify the fee...
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I will be in attendance both days, representing St. Alberts By The Barn in my current dual capacity as both Chief Executive Dreamer and Assistant Hay Baler.
Anybody want to try to play the Dormie Club while there?
I'm going to try to participate in the event and I'd be interested in playing the Dormie Club before or after.
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A really great event right in my backyard and I am going to be in California having dental work those days. The golf gods are tormenting me. :'(
Is that why you aren't coming to make at least a cameo at the Dixie Cup? ???
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I just registered. I think i will be coming up that Friday. I would definately be down to play Dormie or some other places if anybody is interested.
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Talk's cheap!
Isn't that what you do at symposiums? ;D
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Will SPCC become accessible to the public at a low price? ;D
It already is and has been for the 16 years I've lived in NC. I don't think I've paid more than $30 to walk in the two times I've played it (once in '94 or '95 and another in '01 w/Golf's Most Beloved....was about $15 as guest of member).
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Carl,
The word "symposium" in ancient Greece and Rome was a convivial meeting, usually following a dinner, for drinking and intellectual conversation. The Irish would call it "craic."
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I think Rich should be commended for putting together such an event....and such is needed....
Here are my unabashed thoughts on what I read of it...
1. Most architects will not attend either because they are ASGCA and ASGCA is not sponsoring or because another architect is putting it on....sad but true...but cheap golf really doesn't need architects attending does it? ;D
2. Many of the speakers are industry people and not the actual "cheap-ass golf guys"....Audubon is hype- Magazine guys are hype and most consultants have never really seen cheap golf because cheap golf doesn't use them....and Ran is not who one would look to for affordable golf...
3. you need speakers that own their own golf courses and actually make a living from them...guys you have never heard of...guys that use chicken manure for fertilizer, guys that have center row irrigation, guys that have had the same fairway unit for 20 years...guys that mow greens on saturday mornings and cook a hamburger in the grill at the turn by lunch....not NGCOA guys....some might say this is going to the extreme and yes, it probably is but we have been to the other extreme and this would help bring it back...
I'm there as soon as I see that panel with a bunch of owners that I have never heard of and courses I have never heard of....not interested in hearing from Audubon, magazine guys, consultants or architects....there are still some guys out there owning courses and laughing at all of this golf hype all the way to the bank...and it might be hard to get them to tell everyone how they do it... ;D
Rich, I still wish you the best with it...
Mike
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I think Rich should be commended for putting together such an event....and such is needed....
Here are my unabashed thoughts on what I read of it...
1. Most architects will not attend either because they are ASGCA and ASGCA is not sponsoring or because another architect is putting it on....sad but true...but cheap golf really doesn't need architects attending does it? ;D
2. Many of the speakers are industry people and not the actual "cheap-ass golf guys"....Audubon is hype- Magazine guys are hype and most consultants have never really seen cheap golf because cheap golf doesn't use them....and Ran is not who one would look to for affordable golf...
3. you need speakers that own their own golf courses and actually make a living from them...guys you have never heard of...guys that use chicken manure for fertilizer, guys that have center row irrigation, guys that have had the same fairway unit for 20 years...guys that mow greens on saturday mornings and cook a hamburger in the grill at the turn by lunch....not NGCOA guys....some might say this is going to the extreme and yes, it probably is but we have been to the other extreme and this would help bring it back...
I'm there as soon as I see that panel with a bunch of owners that I have never heard of and courses I have never heard of....not interested in hearing from Audubon, magazine guys, consultants or architects....there are still some guys out there owning courses and laughing at all of this golf hype all the way to the bank...and it might be hard to get them to tell everyone how they do it... ;D
Rich, I still wish you the best with it...
Mike
Mike
While I agree with you in general, these sorts of things start with small steps and helpful volunteers. Who knows, your Joe Blows could be on the agenda next year....if this symposium is well supported.
I would like to go just to hear what the Sunny Super has to say.
Ciao
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I think Rich should be commended for putting together such an event....and such is needed....
Here are my unabashed thoughts on what I read of it...
1. Most architects will not attend either because they are ASGCA and ASGCA is not sponsoring or because another architect is putting it on....sad but true...but cheap golf really doesn't need architects attending does it? ;D
2. Many of the speakers are industry people and not the actual "cheap-ass golf guys"....Audubon is hype- Magazine guys are hype and most consultants have never really seen cheap golf because cheap golf doesn't use them....and Ran is not who one would look to for affordable golf...
3. you need speakers that own their own golf courses and actually make a living from them...guys you have never heard of...guys that use chicken manure for fertilizer, guys that have center row irrigation, guys that have had the same fairway unit for 20 years...guys that mow greens on saturday mornings and cook a hamburger in the grill at the turn by lunch....not NGCOA guys....some might say this is going to the extreme and yes, it probably is but we have been to the other extreme and this would help bring it back...
I'm there as soon as I see that panel with a bunch of owners that I have never heard of and courses I have never heard of....not interested in hearing from Audubon, magazine guys, consultants or architects....there are still some guys out there owning courses and laughing at all of this golf hype all the way to the bank...and it might be hard to get them to tell everyone how they do it... ;D
Rich, I still wish you the best with it...
Mike
Mike
While I agree with you in general, these sorts of things start with small steps and helpful volunteers. Who knows, your Joe Blows could be on the agenda next year....if this symposium is well supported.
I would like to go just to hear what the Sunny Super has to say.
Ciao
Sean,
I agree...I would listen to the European guys....in most cases....
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Affordable golf? Sunningdale charges £265/$420 a day not sure that's classed as affordable.
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Mark - I'm guessing that's for a guest. What does it cost for a member? What are the total of member fees and guest fees in a month, which will give a more accurate picture of if its affordable?
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I think Rich should be commended for putting together such an event....and such is needed....
Here are my unabashed thoughts on what I read of it...
1. Most architects will not attend either because they are ASGCA and ASGCA is not sponsoring or because another architect is putting it on....sad but true...but cheap golf really doesn't need architects attending does it? ;D
2. Many of the speakers are industry people and not the actual "cheap-ass golf guys"....Audubon is hype- Magazine guys are hype and most consultants have never really seen cheap golf because cheap golf doesn't use them....and Ran is not who one would look to for affordable golf...
3. you need speakers that own their own golf courses and actually make a living from them...guys you have never heard of...guys that use chicken manure for fertilizer, guys that have center row irrigation, guys that have had the same fairway unit for 20 years...guys that mow greens on saturday mornings and cook a hamburger in the grill at the turn by lunch....not NGCOA guys....some might say this is going to the extreme and yes, it probably is but we have been to the other extreme and this would help bring it back...
I'm there as soon as I see that panel with a bunch of owners that I have never heard of and courses I have never heard of....not interested in hearing from Audubon, magazine guys, consultants or architects....there are still some guys out there owning courses and laughing at all of this golf hype all the way to the bank...and it might be hard to get them to tell everyone how they do it... ;D
Rich, I still wish you the best with it...
Mike
These range of issues work from the top down and the bottom up all at the same time.
I can agree with your statement sort of ....
Let's see what happens over the next 10 - 15 years and then evaluate.
One part of today's golf environment is that all of the non-golf people are getting out of golf.
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Good to see that we have stoked some discussion about the Symposium. Many of you who have commented about attending here have yet to sign up, so please go to the website and sign up. The more people who sign up, the more cheap-ass golf guys may be motivated to show up. Regarding the sunny guy (Stephen Richardson), his club may not be affordable to the average guy, but he is coming to speak about a subject that can help with the affordability issue.
Mike - I agree with all you say, but I assure you that hype isn't what we are going to accomplish (i know you know that). I can't tell you what will come out of this, but it is a first step. The most important key to the success of this event is that the true cheap-ass golf guys do show up. I hope that we can finally have a convergence of industry people and regular golfers instead of the usual industry events preaching to the choir.
My very intention is to have those people who no one has ever heard of be a part of future Symposiums but we need to get the attention of people and sometimes name recognition is the best way to get there to start. The speakers we have all are obviously on board with the goal even though they may work with organizations that say otherwise. This is their chance to speak outside of their companies - and they will.
We have forty people already signed up (including 21 for golf). Please spread the word.
Thanks.
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This has been a subject I have been concerned with for many years.
Having just cancelled my trip to Florida via Autotrain, I plan to drive down for this get together.
Thanks for bringing this message back on GCA !
Bill Dow
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Good to see that we have stoked some discussion about the Symposium. Many of you who have commented about attending here have yet to sign up, so please go to the website and sign up. The more people who sign up, the more cheap-ass golf guys may be motivated to show up. Regarding the sunny guy (Stephen Richardson), his club may not be affordable to the average guy, but he is coming to speak about a subject that can help with the affordability issue.
Mike - I agree with all you say, but I assure you that hype isn't what we are going to accomplish (i know you know that). I can't tell you what will come out of this, but it is a first step. The most important key to the success of this event is that the true cheap-ass golf guys do show up. I hope that we can finally have a convergence of industry people and regular golfers instead of the usual industry events preaching to the choir.
My very intention is to have those people who no one has ever heard of be a part of future Symposiums but we need to get the attention of people and sometimes name recognition is the best way to get there to start. The speakers we have all are obviously on board with the goal even though they may work with organizations that say otherwise. This is their chance to speak outside of their companies - and they will.
We have forty people already signed up (including 21 for golf). Please spread the word.
Thanks.
Rich,
I would come but we have the State Seniors in Waycross on those dates and I just can't miss such an event....have a great time and good luck with it...
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Richard,
Kudos for organizing such an event and let me know if you would like me to cover and publicize it via my Golf Course Industry column.
My only suggestion would be to make sure someone covers the costs of irrigation, which have risen from 25% of the typical budget to over 40% in some cases. You can't cut the cost of golf courses without cutting the cost of irrigation.
Good luck! (I would attend but I have a client meeting on the left coast that day)
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fyi-if time allows and you feel like picking up a few hickories while you're down:
http://www.golfcollectors.com/news.html
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fyi-if time allows and you feel like picking up a few hickories while you're down:
http://www.golfcollectors.com/news.html
edit - dbl post
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fyi-if time allows and you feel like picking up a few hickories while you're down:
http://www.golfcollectors.com/news.html
Jud, you beat me to it, was just going to mention it as I am in the process of trying to work out getting down for the GCS meet and thinking about sneaking out to visit the Symposium.
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My buddy's also having a charity event at Forest Creek that weekend, so it's a triple threat, but unfortunately it just doesn't work this year....Have fun all...
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Well, I suppose some of the lads would like to hear a bit about the symposium. I got to attend the afternoon session - and the libations afterward, of course. Hats off to Richard Mandell and his gang. It was well done all around. The concepts discussed would not be unfamiliar to you but there really is a great deal of value in crystallizing the perspective - especially with the cast they assembled.
The only difficult note for me was that it was perfect weather and the first fairway of SPGC was sort of glowing right outside of the conference window. Hard for me to resist getting out there! It was fortuitous that Ron Forse wanted someone to guide him around the rumbling little course. Great guy and a privilege to hear his take on the old venerable.
Everybody I met was a pleasure. Would you expect anything different at a GCA gathering?
Richard Mandell, Jim Moriarty, Tim Moraghan and Jaime Diaz.
(http://sandhillsinsider.com/seminar.jpg)
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Chris,
You fellows weren't keeping Jaime Diaz up, were you? ;)
Thanks for the update.
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Having just returned home from the trip to Pinehurst, for the Symposium on Affordable Golf, I felt compelled to offer thanks and some reflections on what transpired.
First, a profound thank you to Richard Mandell, Gary and the rest of the firm's fine staff, for really running an outstanding event. The speakers were a diverse, stimulating group, and some very enlightening exchanges were made with the attendees throughout the day. In the main, the conversation was frank, engaging and thought-provoking.
The golf day at Southern Pines was superb. I played with two attendees from Canada, Trevor and TJ, who couldn't have been better company, and a local, Dan ,who lived there, knew the track, and worked at Pinehurst. The operation there was a wonderful example of affordable golf's potential. It wasn't perfect, but it darn good AND memorable. Henry greeted me, as my foot hit the ground out of my truck, with a warm smile on his face to help me out. The pro and starter were friendly and efficient. The course was, mostly, a Donald Ross gem. A real highlight was "Granny Gracey." A seventy-something sweetheart of a gal at the snack-shack that can only be described as special. The refreshments were ice-cold and the hot dogs...perfect. But the scary part is when we returned three holes later for a second round of dogs, I turned the corner and after only ever having met me once she said, "Hi Kris, guess you'll be want'n another one of them dogs, with onions, ketup and mustard right?!" She was dead on!!!! It wasn't slow out there that day and a number of other groups had gone through after us. Where can you get that kind of experience...it was awesome.
Rich intends to make this an annual conference and the GCA tribe was solidly represented at this initial gathering. Ran weighed in, with his usual erudite manner and other GCA members had solid contributions as well. All understood that while this was a noble first step,
subsequent efforts are what will be needed to move the meter!
Some topics surfaced that seemed worth examining. It is ironic, some of this was touched on, in threads within this DG, the last couple of days.
1) The "brown is good" and "firm and fast" mantras are being heavily hyped. Is this actually the way forward for affordable, less-wasteful golf practices? Probably not, in many cases. Only certain soil profiles and climate conditions are conducive to this approach without significantly MORE time and resource commitment. A "one approach fits all " regarding conditioning methods seems misguided and down-right irresponsible in some instances. Yet this new gospel is certainly being put out there, often without qualifiers.
2) Maintanance costs are often seen as a major culprit and target for budget issues at facilities. Often, these bugets get cut and the core asset, the golf course presentation... suffers. Then the slide begins, as folks see what they really joined for deteriorate. This is the last area that should be cut, provided quality leadership and cost oversight is in place.
Several attendees, with extensive professional experiences running clubs, pointed to bloated management teams and excessive salaries, for marginal performance results, as a major area that can torpedo finances. They felt that proven ability, of understanding profit and loss, needed to be more of the criteria for selecting those running a facility. The ability to manage several responsibilites in a competent manner, forging a team approach, were highlighted, as a real way forward in the econmic reality of controlling costs in the future.
3) The declining participation, numbers-wise, by those in and entering the game, was also a focalpoint. Significantly, the lack of true passion for the game and adjusting the teaching approach depending on the golfer, were cited by men AND women attendees, as a major obstacle to retaining and encouraging golfers. If the PGA professionals aren't warm, personable "people folks," and especially were the gals and children are concerned, the game's not going to get them. It was clear that the current "Iniative du jour" to grow the game, being put out by the major administrative bodies of the game, is not getting it done.
4) Poor support of promoting caddie programs, where possible, by the major administrative bodies of golf, was also noted. It's also worth observing, that about a third of the attendees at the Symposium had caddied and found the game that way at some point in their lives. I don't believe it was a coincidence, that percentage number with caddie roots, were there to support the game.
This gathering, for me, was very rewarding on multiple levels. I spoke with fellow men and women golf industry professionals and ardent golfers. They came from as far away as British Columbia, Canada to North Berwick, Scotland. To a person, they were there because they cared enough, and were able to afford, or make the time, to come.
The game is in trouble. The reasons are varied. But clearly, the change will have to start from within the game's ranks, as much as from those in some of golf's leadership ranks. Unfortunately, many of those leaders are currently, intently focused on securing their own position and financial status. That mentality has sadly created much of the unsustainable structure currently in place. It must change. It won't be easy. There is much work to be done. This game has survived centuries of cultural change, World Wars and countless other challenges.
If you truly love the game, you know greed must not be allowed to destroy it. We can all have a say. To which degree we commit to doing something about it...well, that is up to each individual.
Cheers 8)
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Kris,
Thanks for your write up. I was truly disappointed to have been forced to cancel at the last minute (especially since it was only 90 mins away). I am encouraged by the prospect of this becoming an annual event.
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Kelly,
First I would want to commend Rich for initiating such an event. It is a start.
Then, your first paragraph is dead on....
I also agree with you that I see plenty of places that are grinning on their way to the bank....because they are now getting the customer from the "in trouble" places. The free enterprise system had always had a great way of correcting itself and usually it would start with all of the courses being operated or built with a guy such as you describe in your first paragraph....he will get no invites to events by the large equipment companies....he will never have triple row irrigation and the supts at the big places with 3 assistants will never give him his due....but that is where the real affordable golf is headed....I want to see the day when the picture in the post above shows guys sitting on stage in golf shirts and boots...
BUT the problem might be that many of these guys aren't going to give away their secrets....and the problem for most of us is that most really affordable golf is not going to be using an architect....oh well ;)
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Kelly,
This was the INITIAL effort my friend! Rich is to be lauded for his efforts and vision. Have you ever heard of an event addressing the topic? I sure haven't. My observations and remarks were a brief overview as this participant saw the event.
I would encourage you and your cohort to attend the next Symposium, perhaps as panelists. You certainly could contribute richly to the potential solutions. Please reach out to Rich Mandell, as he has the complete list of who participated. The event panel was full of competent, professional folks. Several case studies, of successful, affordable golf operations were showcased... by the folks who HAVE successful, sustained, affordable golf projects.
We can all point to places that are surviving. If you feel that your little part of the world is doing just fine...beautiful. From what I see, hear, read and witness in the field everyday, and I talk and deal with a fair few in the golf business...there is a hell of a lot of financial pain out there right now. It's not going away soon. Many facilities are in trouble. You've not experienced any evidence of that?
As to greed, I'm not even going there. Our planet is in financial upheaval because of it. Golf, while a great exhibit A, is a very small and frankly, not that important part of the equation in the totality of the global situation. Since many on this site, including myself, have some life and/or professional connection to the sport, it has significance for us.
I'm generally a very positive, upbeat individual. What I see troubles me. It could be so much better. My approach is to try and listen, learn, and take the lessons gained in trying to make a quality contribution to an issue when possible.
Cheers 8)
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Kris
This website has been addressing this topic for 10 years.
Many architects, like Rich, have been addressing this topic since they started.
The symposium should be a place for those to go to learn.
Using it as a tool to spread the gospel seems as fruitless as creating the Fedex cup to compete against football ratings. - Why fight the energy?
Golf is not in trouble.
A number of individual golf businesses are.
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"Golf is in trouble." "Golf is not in trouble."
Take another business, say auto industry. What would they be saying if for example people were driving less, new cars were not being developed and built in the same numbers as in the past, and in general folks said they couldn't find the time to drive as much as they used to. Furthermore the auto leaders said that they were going to build mostly luxury cars that cost $100,000.
If the above were true I think most folks would say the auto industry "is in trouble."
If there are more courses closing than being built, is this a correction or a trend? Time will tell.
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Lynn
I don't think golf is a business.
The business of golf does suck right now for many.
Cheers
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JC,
I'm sorry you couldn't make it. There's always next year. Pinehurst is a special area. Amazing, there are almost 50 courses there. I had no idea there were that many.
I believe those who did got a lot out of it. The range of folks attending, from all walks of life and professions, made for some lively discourse. Rich has discussed enlarging his Symposium website to include relavent posting, of articles and information, so greater sharing of successful, affordable golf insights can be gleaned from a more centralized source. The more that can be learned from others that have been resource responsible, while also profitable, for sustained periods on modest budgets, relative to their facility niche, the better.
Cheers 8)
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Richard Mandelll put together a truly remarkable event, with a collection of extremely knowledgable people, which I hope will go forward in the years to come.
I especially liked the input for "Affordable Golf" from across the pond. Alan Chainey, former Captain of The North Berwick Golf Club, East Lothian, Scotland.
We can learn a lot more from the "birth of golf", and I look forward to greater participation from that part of the world to make the game more affordable.
Thanks, Richard ! You have really started something !
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I suppose this symposium was a good thing. It does make me chuckle that the golf business has come to the point of requiring such a symposium.
It is interesting that my father, Gary, made a career out of designing affordable golf course that many, many players have enjoyed but never really got much credit for it. His work wasn't flashy or high budget enough for the magazines and his courses weren't so far out that they caught the golf media's attention. His mentor, Bill Diddel designed and built many golf courses that were W.P.A. projects during the depression. Bill instilled the appreciation of the every day golfer into my father's philosophy. There were plenty of unheralded golf course architects that designed a lot of great, affordable and relatively unknown golf courses.
Now that the golf business realizes that it shot itself in the butt by hitching its star to real estate, glossy magazines and country clubs for a day, etc., etc. it might be too late to recover but will have to remake itself. I agree that bringing kids into the game is paramount. But after years of operators ringing the cash registers and not paying attention to fueling the future of the game the golf business is up against it.
Today technology drives culture. Kids shape their lives around technology that helps them, to a point, elude reality. Golf is a healthy dose of reality that takes time, effort and dedication. I'm not sure there are enough kids interested in the game for its future to be anything but suspect. Having golf be a part of family life is one idea, but the way families are wired these days I don't know if it is possible.
IMHO there will be a huge correction in the golf business where many people in the business are already seeing enormous life changes. It will take a while; change doesn't happen quickly.
An old golf pro that I knew for years told me a long time ago that golf was really a lousy business but there wasn't a better way of life. It is too bad we lost that perspective.
Good luck with future symposiums.
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Ron,
Those words from the old pro were priceless. Thanks!
Cheers 8)
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Tony Muldoon will remember our early morning outing at Brora, and our meeting with those fivesomes of kids playing alternate shots, hitting team balls, and running to make the next shot.
The enthusiasm of that display brought back memoriesof my game when I was five years old. My how fast I could run then !
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Greetings frm China. Sorry I haven't been able to throw in a quick synopsis of the Symposium but I left for Beijing the very next morning and this is the first chance I had to respond. By the way, affordable golf in China - forget about it for now. Nor are they interested, which does not bode well for the future. I am making small strides over here with my Skydoor project but when the wrong site is chosen and the wrong equipment is chosen, that is just the beginning of cost challenges. Another topic for another day.
Wanted to let everyone know that we had 75 attendees at the Symposium on Affordable Golf, including representatives from the USGA and GCSAA as well as superintendents from courses which have hosted USGA majors in the past. Some of these people are who we need to be part of the discussion. More importantly, we had a good group of just 'Joe Golfers' attend and actively participate, which is what I wanted. Rarely do you get an industry event together and include the end user so it was good to see them interact with everyone including the USGA and GCSAA people. That is how we will get things accomplished regarding affordable golf - by hearing from the golfer's mouth.
One thing that must be clarified: There wasn't a soul in the room that honestly thought we were going to solve the world's problems last week, but we all did recognize that good dialogue was a move in the right direction. It also must be pointed out that others have addressed affordable golf and that this effort is just a small part in an overall effort by all who love the game who want to make the game more affordable than it is in many places in the world. Granted, we all know that golf IS affordable in many places, but we all know that the golf BUSINESS is not healthy because of cost and expense.
Our efforts are part of a grass roots movement that requires every individual to make small strides toward making the business of golf more sustainable and the game more affordable as a result. One of the things we delved into was how to define affordable. We all agreed that affordable was a relative term on many levels and that sustainable and profitable are terms that need to go hand in hand with affordable.
My next step is to summarize the day's findings and I will make that available on the Symposium on Affordbale Golf website for all to review and of course, discussion here will be even more raoucous than before. My deadline for finishing it is December 15th but hopefully others who attended the Symposium will chime in on their thoughts until then. In the meantime, I would love to hear from others about topics for next year's symposium as well as case studies of affordable efforts.
Thanks to all who attended and I hope we can double that number of 75 next year. Just making baby steps working in conjunction with everyone else who has a concern for this sort of thing.
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Good Post Ron!
To bad Pete Dye didn't learn as much from Bill Diddel as you dad did. ;)
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Are transcripts of the talks (or papers or case studies) available somewhere?
Did any finance, banking or real estate developers attend? If so, how many? To me, the $$ person is the audience to reach.
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Carl: I will be preparing a White Paper on the day's discussions and will make it available on the symposium website (www.symposiumonaffordablegolf.com) as well as my website (www.golf-architecture.com) around December 15th.
There were no money people there and there were no large management groups represented there either. You are right Carl, the money people (and management) should be the target audience for affordability efforts. These people always show up at other conferences witha wealth of ideas and expertise to share with the unsuspecting yet these people are the problem wiht why the industry has so many failing operations. They have no clue about the game and many of them have come rom other industries applying those philosophies to golf. This was a major observation made at the symposium. it always amazes me how many of these mnoney people come and go as employees of different companies over the years. Isn't that a red flag? I have seen many of them at the Golf Inc. Conference since 1993 and almost every time a new organization is represented. I have also seen hundreds of these so-called experts disappear as quickly as they arrived at these conferences. Their expertise gone with them.
Ron - Great post. There are many unheralded golf architects doing great work now as well as in the past but because of the focus on things other than design, these efforts are ignored by the media. Only the big-money efforts get attention and there is a direct correlation between that and the lack of affordability in golf.
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The local paper did a write up of the symposium. It was accompanied by a photograph of some fellow named "Ron" Morrissett. Oh well, this was the point of the Symposium - get the discussion going - change the perspective incrementally - move closer toward a more pure and economically feasible game.
http://www.thepilot.com/news/2010/dec/05/tackling-issue-affordable-golf-subject-local-sympo/ (http://www.thepilot.com/news/2010/dec/05/tackling-issue-affordable-golf-subject-local-sympo/)
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"I think bunkers should be raked about every four days"
Only Melvyn would play there if someone did that....
Me, Ron and Ran too I guess.
Stuff like this will help people dismiss the more important points.
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Richard, hope things are going well in China, building foreign locals brings a whole different approach :P
I'm looking forward to your White Paper. Much like Nuzzo stated, I hope at least the concept of Affordable was flushed out.
We did developed and operated (mom and pop) what we determined was Affordable for 15 yrs and now a new owner (former Limited Partner) and a major mgmt. co. are operating the place. After 2 seasons, I would love to be able to compare year-end statements. For years, our friend Joe Jemsik would groan about munis not having the same expenses and the ability to subsidize to the deteriment of the Mom and Pop operator. And Mgmt companies bring their own set of problems to the business model.
PS Mike Young - whether or not the ASGCA is involved in any symposium has absolutely no bearing on whether individual members attend or not. And it's a poor assumption that owners wishing for Affordable will not seek the knowledge and experience of someone who knows how to skin the cat six ways from Sunday. We're talking Affordable here, not Cheap. Ever hear the saying, "that free (stuff/advice) was the most expensive thing I ever got'"?
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Richard has written a magazine article regarding this issue which you will most likely appreciate:
http://viewer.zmags.com/publication/c0eb8eee#/c0eb8eee/72 (http://viewer.zmags.com/publication/c0eb8eee#/c0eb8eee/72)