Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: PThomas on August 12, 2010, 06:56:47 PM
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dont think there's been a full picture yet, and the club was quite happy when i asked them if i could post pictures from my recent visit - everyone I met there, Fred and all his staff, etc... was great! - , so here goes...4 sets of tees, 7466 to 5445...yardages given will be from the second longest set at 6828
the 1st, par 4, 423, split fairway
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i204/pthomas2006/DSCN7571.jpg)
a closer look at the first green
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i204/pthomas2006/DSCN7572.jpg)
tee shot on 2, par 4 436yds dogleg left..play is just right of the bunkers if i remember correctly
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i204/pthomas2006/DSCN7573.jpg)
approach to number 2...a backstop behind the pin/you dont want to leave your approach short
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i204/pthomas2006/DSCN7574.jpg)
par 5 3rd, 543 yds, also with 2 fairways
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i204/pthomas2006/DSCN7575.jpg)
a closer view as we move toward 3 green
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i204/pthomas2006/DSCN7576.jpg)
down the fairway a bit of the 4th, 441 yds, #1 handicap hole
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i204/pthomas2006/DSCN7577.jpg)
the uphill 5th, 354 yds
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i204/pthomas2006/DSCN7579.jpg)
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You know - I'm starting to really dig this Western golf. Between RC, Sagebrush, Sand Hills, etc.. I'm awfully impressed. Plus, I love the lack of humidity out there.
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6th, 383 yds
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i204/pthomas2006/DSCN7580.jpg)
the rolling nature of the 6th...
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i204/pthomas2006/DSCN7581.jpg)
look back at 6 from 7 tee
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i204/pthomas2006/DSCN7582.jpg)
7 tee,443 dogleg left...note the white aiming rock...a little left of it is best, esp with a little draw
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i204/pthomas2006/DSCN7583.jpg)
someone pulled his drive :-[, so this view of 7 green is from the left
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i204/pthomas2006/DSCN7584.jpg)
8 tee, 173 yds
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i204/pthomas2006/DSCN7585.jpg)
9th tee, 372 yds...faiway tilts left
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i204/pthomas2006/DSCN7586.jpg)
again from the left side, blind second shot to 9 green...i had to aim over the right edge of the left bunker
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i204/pthomas2006/DSCN7587.jpg)
gotta go get a haircut! back 9 later
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(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i204/pthomas2006/DSCN7574.jpg)
What is that apparent line between the green and the hillock just beyond? Cart path? Colors from different grasses?
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(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i204/pthomas2006/DSCN7574.jpg)
What is that apparent line between the green and the hillock just beyond? Cart path? Colors from different grasses?
Looks to be the short cut of the native. You can see it in some of the other pictures as well (like behind 7 green).
Wow...can really see from the pictures why this course gets all the love here. Lays beautifully on the land and looks like a blast to play. Thanks for the pictures Paul...looking forward to the back 9.
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Paul:
I'm at Rock Creek today, and the next three days. It's rained a bit since you were here and the golf course is absolutely stunning right now, I wish I'd brought my camera.
Indeed, the line in the last photo is where they've mowed one pass into the native rough. It's not as noticeable now after the rain, the grass has gotten over the shock of being cut low.
Played today with two members and the g.m., and my partner, Tom Devlin, shot 72 with three birdies. I don't know why people think it's so impossible. Couldn't have been much better than it was today.
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Tom,
Can you speak the choice of sand there. Is it common to the area? The brightness seems a bit stark, but having said that, I like how it works.
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I'm sure the sand looking as bright as it does is merely a function of the photographic technology and not a true indication of the actual color as seen by the eye when in that environment.
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Tom,
Can you speak the choice of sand there. Is it common to the area? The brightness seems a bit stark, but having said that, I like how it works.
Jim:
Sand is not common to this part of Montana at all, it was all trucked in from a river 100 miles away or thereabouts. It's whiter than I normally choose, but bunker sand is one element of the course where we generally let our clients have their way ... it doesn't pay to argue about stuff like that. I will say, though, that the bunkers here are amazingly firm and tight . They have really matured well and I guess all that bunker liner we put in was worth the hassle.
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Tom (or anyone else thats been there),
It looks like there are some "Stone Eagle-ish" teeing angles out there. What I mean, is that a few holes--from the aerial--look like they'd be a bit more fun from right next to the preceded green, rather than the formal tee boxes. Notably the 7th fairway from 6th green, 11th fairway from 10th green, and 15th fairway from 14th green. Is this intentional?
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Tom,
Can you speak the choice of sand there. Is it common to the area? The brightness seems a bit stark, but having said that, I like how it works.
Jim:
Sand is not common to this part of Montana at all, it was all trucked in from a river 100 miles away or thereabouts. It's whiter than I normally choose, but bunker sand is one element of the course where we generally let our clients have their way ... it doesn't pay to argue about stuff like that. I will say, though, that the bunkers here are amazingly firm and tight . They have really matured well and I guess all that bunker liner we put in was worth the hassle.
I had previously wondered if they were deliberately going for something bright white because of the way it resembles a snow bank on the ground. Seems fitting for the area, even if that was not in fact the idea behind it.
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Matthew:
I forgot to think about that because the snow is off the mountains right now ... but it is snowing up there today, actually. Six inches possible above 6500 feet. The top of the golf course is at 4960 but the mountains up behind the property go to 9000 feet.
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Paul:
I'm at Rock Creek today, and the next three days. It's rained a bit since you were here and the golf course is absolutely stunning right now, I wish I'd brought my camera.
Indeed, the line in the last photo is where they've mowed one pass into the native rough. It's not as noticeable now after the rain, the grass has gotten over the shock of being cut low.
Played today with two members and the g.m., and my partner, Tom Devlin, shot 72 with three birdies. I don't know why people think it's so impossible. Couldn't have been much better than it was today.
Tom, i thought the course was absolutely stunning when I was there!
and i didnt think the course was impossibly hard...I played from the 2nd set of tees, though i did move up to the third set on some of the longish par 4s
and i will be posting the back nine either today or this weekend...
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10 tee, , a cool par 5 down then up, 576
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i204/pthomas2006/DSCN7555.jpg)
closer to 10 green...10 shares a common fairway with 11
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i204/pthomas2006/DSCN7556.jpg)
from right side of 10th fairway
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i204/pthomas2006/DSCN7557.jpg)
11th tee, 412 yds....
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i204/pthomas2006/DSCN7558.jpg)
approach to 11
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i204/pthomas2006/DSCN7559.jpg)
12 tee, 148 yards down the hill
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i204/pthomas2006/DSCN7560.jpg)
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the long par 3 12th, 265 from the tips, 221 from the 2nd set...long or left you are down the hill into nasty often/usually? unplayable scrub, which can be found off other fairways as well
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i204/pthomas2006/DSCN7561.jpg)
the tricky par 4 14th, 548 from the tips, 454 from 2nd set...a dogleg right, big hitters may not need a driver
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i204/pthomas2006/DSCN7562.jpg)
a look back down 14 from behind the green..not how narrow the fairway gets...if your tee ball doesnt land in a pretty precise spot you will have a semi-blind/fully blind second shot...
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i204/pthomas2006/DSCN7563.jpg)
15, donwhill par 4 299 from 2nd set, 352 from the back, certainly driveable for big hitters if they are accurate
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i204/pthomas2006/DSCN7564.jpg)
back up the hill at 16, 426 yds from 2nd set
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i204/pthomas2006/DSCN7565.jpg)
back down the hill at the gorgeous 17th, 169 yds
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i204/pthomas2006/DSCN7567.jpg)
18 tee, dogleg left, 555, bunkers in play on 2nd shot
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i204/pthomas2006/DSCN7570.jpg)
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10 tee, , a cool par 5 down then up, 576
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i204/pthomas2006/DSCN7555.jpg)
closer to 10 green...10 shares a common fairway with 11
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i204/pthomas2006/DSCN7556.jpg)
from right side of 10th fairway
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i204/pthomas2006/DSCN7557.jpg)
11th tee, 412 yds....
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i204/pthomas2006/DSCN7558.jpg)
approach to 11
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i204/pthomas2006/DSCN7559.jpg)
12 tee, 148 yards down the hill
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i204/pthomas2006/DSCN7560.jpg)
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10 tee, , a cool par 5 down then up, 576
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i204/pthomas2006/DSCN7555.jpg)
closer to 10 green...10 shares a common fairway with 11
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i204/pthomas2006/DSCN7556.jpg)
from right side of 10th fairway
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i204/pthomas2006/DSCN7557.jpg)
11th tee, 412 yds....
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i204/pthomas2006/DSCN7558.jpg)
approach to 11
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i204/pthomas2006/DSCN7559.jpg)
12 tee, 148 yards down the hill
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i204/pthomas2006/DSCN7560.jpg)
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Shivas:
This is your get-on-a-plane and go forth for here course?
I'm not seeing it -- not compared to recent GCA photo threads of Sand Hills and esp. Old Macdonald.
I agree #7 looks really cool. The rest? Enlighten me (you, too, Paul...)
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Shivas:
This is your get-on-a-plane and go forth for here course?
I'm not seeing it -- not compared to recent GCA photo threads of Sand Hills and esp. Old Macdonald.
I agree #7 looks really cool. The rest? Enlighten me (you, too, Paul...)
Shivas, Jim Franklin:
You may want to add some blurbs here to help your case because...
... I'm still pointing my plane to Mullen, Nebraska, Southampton, NY, Carmel, CA, Pine Valley, NJ, Melbourne, Australia, Newcastle, N. Ireland, County Kerry, Ireland, Dornoch, Scotland, Banff, Canada, Ardmore, PA, Oakmont, PA, Fisher's Island, NY, Bridport, Tasmania, or Northland, New Zealand.
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It looks like RC3 has a lot of variety?
Is that one of its strengths?
At least on the longer holes, it appears from the photos like there is a mix of downhill, flat and uphill approaches - and also some different views on the drives as well?
Where do you all put this in the pantheon?
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Shivas:
This is your get-on-a-plane and go forth for here course?
I'm not seeing it -- not compared to recent GCA photo threads of Sand Hills and esp. Old Macdonald.
I agree #7 looks really cool. The rest? Enlighten me (you, too, Paul...)
Shivas, Jim Franklin:
You may want to add some blurbs here to help your case because...
... I'm still pointing my plane to Mullen, Nebraska, Southampton, NY, Carmel, CA, Pine Valley, NJ, Melbourne, Australia, Newcastle, N. Ireland, County Kerry, Ireland, Dornoch, Scotland, Banff, Canada, Ardmore, PA, Oakmont, PA, Fisher's Island, NY, Bridport, Tasmania, or Northland, New Zealand.
I'm sure one couldn't go wrong with any of those destinations. But it would be a mistake to write RCCC out of your travel plans because you aren't overly impressed with some pictures. It is hard to capture the scale and movement in photos. Picture something like the movement on the eighth hole at Crystal Downs or the eighth at Prairie Dunes, only super-sized.
Here is a photo from behind the long two shot 14th which might give a better feel for the nature of the land. Those bunkers are the only two on the hole. The tees are on the ridge near the horizon over the left side of the green.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/Golf%20Courses/Rock%20Creek%20Construction/aa3b35d6.jpg?t=1250312741)
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Shivas:
This is your get-on-a-plane and go forth for here course?
I'm not seeing it -- not compared to recent GCA photo threads of Sand Hills and esp. Old Macdonald.
I agree #7 looks really cool. The rest? Enlighten me (you, too, Paul...)
Phil, lots of very good holes out there...some of mine include par 5 3rd with its dual fairway - i used each one during my 2 rounds there -, the par 3 8th...in fact all the par 3's there are quite good, 17 across a beautiful rushing creek being my favorite ...
the par 5 10th, down then quite uphill for your 3rd...14, where choice of club off the tee and placement of your tee ball are so important, the drivable 15th,.....
RCC is certainly a beautiful place to play golf, you get the feeling of being totally isolated from the rest of the world....unbelievably quiet out there, which i always appreciate...snow-capped peaks, a flowing stream with cold water which people fish out of...there's only 1 hole out there I believe with 2-3 houses.......
overall the course was in very good condition...and as i said earlier ALL of the staff i dealt with were great, including my caddie
Tom and his crew did their usualy great shop of shaping i think...i love how the bunkers fit/blend into the landscape, how natural they look
the course is quite walkable...you do go up some hills so it is a decent workout, but it is definitely a course that can and should be walked
wow, after typing this it makes me want to go back out there right now!
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The pics of #11 don't give an idea of the right side of the fairway, which drops 30 feet (a guess) from the left side. This is some topography in use...a look back from the green:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v478/foodstat/Rock%20Creek%20Cattle%20Company/rc017.jpg)
Tom Doak,
While playing #17, I wondered why the right half of the green didn't abut the creek like the left half did?
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v478/foodstat/Rock%20Creek%20Cattle%20Company/rc023.jpg)
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Gene: Well, I've been here the past three days, and there is nowhere I'd rather be. Not even the places you're a member. I realize I'm biased, but until you have seen this place first-hand, you just have no idea. I appreciate Paul taking the time to post all of his pictures, but they do not do this landscape (or these fairways and greens) any justice.
Scott: You'll notice just in front of #17 green the ground is actually a bit higher than the green ... we built up that area so that in case the creek goes over its banks in a wet spring, it wouldn't wash out the green proper. Once the water hits that bank and turns, we figured the green was safe and we could sneak a bit closer to the creek.
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Really does look like one hell of a place and thanks for sharing Paul.
This is what makes GCA still cool at times.
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I would agree with David that Paul's "high noon" pictures don't seem to do justice to the place, and you have to look hard for the contours because of the flattening effect of photos, anyway.
I think there is enough there to make it very enticing and intriguing, and I hope to visit before too long.
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I think David M's photo is as compelling of a photo of a course that I have seen on here.
One thing I am a sucker for is a course where the fairway mounds and the surrounding mounds all fit together as well as fit with the larger landscape. I think that is the epitome of "naturalism" architecture and there is certainly no one better than Tom Doak and his crew at accomplishing this "look."
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I would agree with David that Paul's "high noon" pictures don't seem to do justice to the place, and you have to look hard for the contours because of the flattening effect of photos, anyway.
I sent Tom D. an IM stating that many pics posted of Sand Hills on GCA over the years have not come close to translating its majesty and feel that the same might be occuring in this instance as well.
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my pictures do not fully capture how special RCC is....i shall use some of your comments to help justify a better camera to my wife - seriously! thanks guys..
of course if she has concerns, i might be asking some of you for back up support ;)
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It looks like RC3 has a lot of variety?
Is that one of its strengths?
At least on the longer holes, it appears from the photos like there is a mix of downhill, flat and uphill approaches - and also some different views on the drives as well?
Where do you all put this in the pantheon?
Rob,
Good observations--the variety is excellent. The greens are varied and always interesting, the approaches are varied, you have some drives that are in front of you, others that are pretty blind, some in between, its just a wonderful place to play. I'd have to think its in the five modern courses in the USA and perhaps around #10 overall--certainly not much worse than that. Its my favorite modern course, but I haven't played all the main candidates.
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In addition, Scott Burroughs picture of #11 shows more of the contours on the far side of the fairway. I know each of my tee shots went through the fairway and I had blind second shots to an elevated green.
I will stick to my conclusion that RCCC is the best course built since 1960 and arguably the funnest course I have played. Pictures do not do the course justice. The setting is wonderful, the fairway movement is terrific, and the green sites are a blast. Give me a private jet, and I will pick up Shivas and we will head to Deer Lodge, Montana, thanks.
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To add, I just got back from 8 rounds at Bandon (3 Old Mac, 3 Pac Dunes, and 1 at each of the others) and I would still fly to RCCC first. I loved Old Mac, but there is something about the course at RCCC and the setting that makes the place so special. Photos do not do the course justice as many have said.
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Jim:
Ten rounds of play -- you split between Rock Creek and Olde Macdonald.
What's the result ?
p.s. I've played Rock Creek and really enjoyed it -- the pics only show a peak of what's visible to the eye itself.
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Matt -
Great question. I really loved Old Macdonald as well so I would go with a 6-4 split in favor of RCCC. But that would be a fun dilemma to have. Both courses are superb and just fun to play.
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Unbelievably stunning looking course - one of the nicest I have seen reviewed on here
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Matt -
In case you did not see my reply as it is now on Page 1, I would do 6-4 in favor of RCCC versus Old Mac. Both are fun. You need to get out to Bandon and check out Old Mac.
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Jim:
I hope to be at Bandon later this month and play Olde Macdonald.
Do agree w you on Rock Creek -- the course has the goods -- save for the final hole which I don't see at the same level as the ones that precede it. Despite that -- the place is simply first rate and is right up there with any of the top tier courses routinely written about here.
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Jim:
I hope to be at Bandon later this month and play Olde Macdonald.
Do agree w you on Rock Creek -- the course has the goods -- save for the final hole which I don't see at the same level as the ones that precede it. Despite that -- the place is simply first rate and is right up there with any of the top tier courses routinely written about here.
UnFu&$ing believeable.
YOU ARE STILL banging on the 18th hole, Ward??? Get a clue!
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Michael:
My comments are my opinoins. If you don't like then -- ignore them.
I loved the place and concur with Jim on it's overall position with the other stellar layouts we have here in the USA.
I just don't see the 18th in the same vein as the holes that precede it.
To use your phrase - get a clue.
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It's all good. I do not have a problem with #18 like Matt does. I agree it is not as strong as the other par 5s there, but so what. It gives the good player a chance to hit it in two and feel pretty good when leaving.
Matt - I will be curious to hear you assessment of Old Macdonald. It is a true blast to play also. I hope you get a chance to play it in different wind conditions too. One my favorite shots I hit there was on the Road hole #11. From 170 I hit a low draw 4 iron that went around the road hole bunker and ended up 3 feet from the hole in the back left corner. Fun shot.
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Jim:
Thanks for your comments.
I don't loathe the 18th at Rock Creek -- just don't see it at the same level of holes that precede it. The 16th (wow, what a hole) and the par-3 17th are well done -- especially the 16th. Rock Creek has plenty of others that are really well done -- the tumbling downhill par-5 10th is one of them.
I'm looking forward to playing Olde Macdonald -- I do have an extra day so maybe I can catch different wind patterns.
Curious to know -- unrelated to RC -- how do you split ten rounds between OM and PD ?
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Since we just did 8 rounds at Bandon (3 OM, 3 PD, 1 BD, 1 BT), I would split them 5 and 5. Both are fabulous and different feels to them. The green sizes at OM are incredible and will test your accuracy and touch when you get to the green. I would go with 5 and 5.
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Jim:
If forced to place them in order of YOUR preference -- how would you place the following ...
Sand Hills
Ballyneal
Rock Creek
Pacific Dunes
Bandon Trails
Olde Macdonald
Bandon Dunes
thanks ....
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Okay, if forced to place....
1. Rock Creek
2. Sand Hills
3. Pacific Dunes
3. Old Macdonald
5. Ballyneal
6. Bandon Dunes
7. Bandon Trails
The first 5 are in my personal top 20.
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Jim:
No doubt an impressive listing and I share your feelings for all of them -- looking forward to Olde Macdonald. Glad I read Dream Golf recently to get the full flavor.
Jim, what elements of Rock Creek surprised you in a positive way ?
Few other questions ...
Best hole you liked ?
Most underrated hole ?
Overrated hole ?
thanks,
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Matt:
There is no "i" in team, and there is no "e" in Old Macdonald.