Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Matt Bosela on July 08, 2010, 12:12:42 AM
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After three days at Ballyneal, documented here (http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,44916.0/), fellow GCA'er Harris Nepon accompanied me on the three hour trip north into Nebraska for a date with the truly exquisite Sand Hills Golf Club.
The club had been inundated with rain over the previous week, taking in as much as 5 inches in a one or two hour span at one point but the course played impeccably, with all credit due to the tremendous grounds crew who worked all hours of the day getting the water off the course and tidying up the bunkers.
We were able to fit in 54 a day during our two-day stay and got blessed with ideal weather and sunlight on our last day, giving me the opportunity to get some pretty spectacular photos.
This course is obviously worthy of great discussion so I'll post a couple holes a day in hopes of stimulating some conversation.
1st Hole: 549 Yards Par 5
Perhaps one of the best opening holes in golf and certainly the best that I've played. The tee shot must be played over the native area to an inviting fairway but the average player likely hits it left more often than not, which is dead here. The ideal tee shot is hit toward the right fairway bunker which sets up a tough layup shot to a fairway that pinches in around 150 yards or so. Unless it's howling downwind, I really think laying up to wedge distance is the play, as fairway metals will only hit into the slope and fall back down the hill to a tough pitch distance.
The approach makes the hole - it is played well uphill to a green with a significant false front. And I mean significant - shots that come up short or spin back will roll all the way back down the hill, leaving the most awkward of pitch shots, the 40 yarder straight back uphill. I found out the hard way on my first go-around, when my wedge approach spun back down the hill twice on my way to a opening triple bogey. However, I'd learn enough from that to ensure all my approaches went to the middle of the green and I'd end up making three birdies on this hole over the rest of our stay. Just a wonderful par five.
View of 1st Hole at Sunset from Ben's Porch
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUYxbc7P1oI/AAAAAAAADj8/1WJP38ArJos/s1600/1M.jpg)
View from Back Tee
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUYxbqVRfmI/AAAAAAAADkE/srl1q4CuFYM/s1600/1B.jpg)
View from Left Fairway Bunker
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUYxcEvPdPI/AAAAAAAADkU/_OvaU9Q9anE/s1600/1D.jpg)
View from Right Side of Landing Area
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUYxbxPHEiI/AAAAAAAADkM/oeFCD6T5zmA/s1600/1C.jpg)
View from Middle of Fairway
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUYxcY9uWFI/AAAAAAAADkc/vKay5LM1ArI/s1600/1E.jpg)
View from 90 Yards
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUYx7FO2QyI/AAAAAAAADk8/MQQz3ifRUMU/s1600/1F.jpg)
View from Left Side of Approach Area
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUYx7COjIpI/AAAAAAAADk0/2PwmNVDMzlo/s1600/1G.jpg)
View from Right Side of Green, with 18th Hole in Background
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUYx6-gCKxI/AAAAAAAADks/0Y1GXmWAPgE/s1600/1H.jpg)
View of Green from the 6th Tee
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUYx6okl3_I/AAAAAAAADkk/LxdD9HoUSos/s1600/1L.jpg)
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Thanks for the pics Matt, it looks amazing. I love the front right greenside bunkers
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My favorite opening hole in golf. Hard to put in words what it's like stepping on that tee for the first time......awe-inspiring.
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Ahhhh the Sand Hills Golf Club - does it get any better than that? There's nothing quite like the feeling of coming over the hill by Ben's Porch and seeing the course unfold right before your eyes.
The last time I was there I played a match against a couple of young guys who hit the ball a mile. Both drove well past me and hit irons for their second shots into the right greenside bunker, struggled from there and made 6 or 7. I laid up to wedge distance like Matt mentions and made birdie. For me it takes two good pokes to get there in two, but the trouble right and left, coupled with the false front makes a lay-up almost a no-brainer for me. I've played it quite well over the years with this strategy.
It plays well in all winds, something that can be said of all holes at the Sand Hills. Into the wind getting around the pinch at about 125 out can be daunting, and may not even be worth the trouble. Downwind it would tempt the player to go for the green in two, bringing all that trouble into play.
My favorite opening hole in all of golf as well.
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2nd Hole - 458 Yards Par 4
The club constructed a back tee to the left of the 1st green, adding 40 yards of length for players looking for more of a challenge from the diamond tees. That tee shot, in my opinion, is the most intimidating on the golf course, as the fairway sits elevated from the tee and you can barely see any fairway from that spot. Only the longest of hitters can get the ball into the wider portion of the fairway past the dunes on the left.
It's a much more inviting tee shot from the other decks but this golf hole is a bear no matter where you play. The greensite here is absolutely spectacular, with the right side built up into a dune and featuring a dramatic falloff both to the left and down in front. The false front here, especially on the right side, comes into play often, making shots into a back or middle right hole location exceptionally difficult.
You could spend 30 minutes on this green and never tire of the shotmaking possibilities. For example, the pin position indicated in the photos is back right - if you are on the left side of the green, you can try to lag it up to the hole or try the more exciting approach of hitting it well past the hole, up the bowl and watch the ball come back 20 feet to the pin. There's the same feature on the left side of the green as well, making putting here a blast.
This hole was my nemesis for sure, as I didn't make a par in six rounds. I hit the green only one time in regulation - I proceeded to four-putt for double bogey! Toughest hole on the course from the back tee deck and one of the great holes I've ever had the pleasure of playing.
Tee Shot from Back of Diamond Tees (458 Yards)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUYzJrdAq2I/AAAAAAAADls/ubedYKNG4zA/s1600/2B.jpg)
Tee Shot from Regular Diamond Tees (418 Yards)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUYzJyIZ_1I/AAAAAAAADl0/NWEPPTGe2pU/s1600/2A.jpg)
Approach from Centre of Fairway
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUYzE8UhYfI/AAAAAAAADlk/a7NBK2595w8/s1600/2D.jpg)
Approach from Slightly Right of Centre
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUYzEpT-NwI/AAAAAAAADlc/YuOIyUf-9_c/s1600/2E.jpg)
View from Right Side of Green, showing tremendous false front
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUYzD8CoVjI/AAAAAAAADlM/P_X4SjhteWc/s1600/2G.jpg)
Closeup view from Back of Green, looking back down fairway
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUYzERKYtqI/AAAAAAAADlU/zMIWB_DfqdU/s1600/2F.jpg)
Longer view from back of green, showing the slope and short grass around putting surface
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUYzDWfsxiI/AAAAAAAADlE/LFJlrWFCmCQ/s1600/2n.jpg)
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(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c60/NoSkillzMB/SandHills/2D.jpg)
That green looks ho-hum...
just kidding Kenny!! ;D
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I'm not sure I'll ever get to experience anything like Sand Hills again.
I found the first hole to be the best opener I've played, as most have said. I personally don't come across many par 5's that I can't at least be up near the green chipping in 2. No matter what I did I couldn't get to this green. With the wind, against it, no wind, didn't matter. As it was Matt's best scoring hole of the trip, it was my worst. At least on #2 I always got the stroke back.
Great first 2 holes.
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Matt:
I just visited Sand Hills last week and the course had just the right amount of "crispiness" throughout.
The greens were like an ice rink and there was plenty of roll on all our shots.
The pics appear to represent that fact: A fair amount of brown hue where Kyle (the super) is just giving the grass enough water to stay alive.
Was this your experience while you were there or did the heavy rains slow things down a bit?
Gene
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is it a good drive? I notice the buggy.
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Matt:
I just visited Sand Hills last week and the course had just the right amount of "crispiness" throughout.
The greens were like an ice rink and there was plenty of roll on all our shots.
The pics appear to represent that fact: A fair amount of brown hue where Kyle (the super) is just giving the grass enough water to stay alive.
Was this your experience while you were there or did the heavy rains slow things down a bit?
Gene
Gene, I thought the conditions were remarkable for a course that got hit with that much rain in such a short time. It also poured heavily the entire first night of our stay yet the course played very firm and fast and the greens rolled very fast and true. Again, I can only say how lucky you are to have such a great crew working at your club.
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is it a good drive? I notice the buggy.
Mark,
We had just come from Ballyneal, walking 54 a day there. The only way we were getting 54 in at Sand Hills without our legs falling off was by taking the buggy :)
More holes coming tonight...
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Matt:
I just visited Sand Hills last week and the course had just the right amount of "crispiness" throughout.
The greens were like an ice rink and there was plenty of roll on all our shots.
The pics appear to represent that fact: A fair amount of brown hue where Kyle (the super) is just giving the grass enough water to stay alive.
Was this your experience while you were there or did the heavy rains slow things down a bit?
Gene
Gene,
Maybe you can comment.
Out of curiosity, how large is Kyle's maintenance staff at the club? I am very ignorant about the maintenace practices of the prairie courses versus those of other more mainstream locations. And, maybe it's just me and my opinion, but the course shows a remarkable maturity in these photos when I compare them to other shots I've seen of the golf course course. You already touched on it above, but it even looks crisp and bit more tight than I thought it was from those photos.
Huck and Spaulding are starting to wear on me a bit with their opinion of SH--in a good way. Every time I see it, it looks better.
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Our fore caddie the first day was telling us all the caddies for a day prior had to work a full day helping the crew to get the bunkers back in shape. I believe i saw 4 or 5 guys working on the 18th biunkers for a full day. As you will see in Matt's pictures, the place was immaculate.
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This is going to be an epic thread of an epic golf course. :)
Pup
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3rd Hole - 216 Yards Par 3
The first one-shotter at Sand Hills is a beauty, with options even available off the tee. The hole has been designed to accept a low, running shot in from the left side, as the green features a dramatic hillside on the left and everything slopes away from that to the right and to the back of the green. So you can play the hole as it's designed or take the modern approach and try to fly it directly to the flag. I found that you want to be past the flag here in order to leave yourself a make-able uphill putt. Too often, I was in the middle of the green and short of the flag. That would mean me aiming ten feet left while also barely breathing on the ball on 30 footers just to ensure I didn't go ten feet past.
Tee Shot from Back Tees
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUY0CP0tOwI/AAAAAAAADmk/PfCnmCHNqFs/s1600/3A.jpg)
Closeup View from Behind Flag - you can really see the undulations here and the significant drop from the front left to the back right
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUY0B2P--sI/AAAAAAAADmc/1NOjcDkmTng/s1600/3D.jpg)
Long View from Behind Flag - must be the biggest green on the golf course
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUY0BumpuBI/AAAAAAAADmU/QjI_kpjp4Ns/s1600/3q.jpg)
Another View from Behind and left of Flag
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUY0Bn4mobI/AAAAAAAADmM/pHRGGXOEPEQ/s1600/3u.jpg)
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Man that green looks slick.... I love that place.
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4th Hole - 485 Yards Par 4
Like the 2nd, this hole features two 'back' or diamond tee decks, with one at 485 yards and the other at 449 yards. The tee shot is played downhill and you likely want to favour the right side in order to set up a better look at the green. Doing that, of course, comes with a cost if you miss, as there is a big bunker flanking that side of the fairway.
The most notable feature on this world class hole is the 30 foot deep bunker short and left of the green. Let me just say you do NOT want to be in there unless you're taking a photo for posterity. Look up hazard in the dictionary and there should be a photo of that bunker that goes along with it! The green sits elevated from the fairway and features dramatic falloffs both in front and to the right, with a very large collection area to the right with short grass everywhere. Shots can be played left of the green and will filter back toward the middle of the green so even if you go right on your approach, the smart shot is to play your pitch long past the hole and it should come back a bit off that slope.
Tee Shot from Back Tees (485 Yards)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUY1XZ6HDAI/AAAAAAAADn8/0jSyWgvO0YM/s1600/4B.jpg)
Tee Shot from Diamond Tees (449 Yards)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUY1S-OGOTI/AAAAAAAADn0/bz_jpDBQXNI/s1600/4D.jpg)
Left Side of Fairway
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUY1STN89RI/AAAAAAAADns/XGnndRDJw78/s1600/4E.jpg)
Middle of Fairway
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUY1GVuR7dI/AAAAAAAADm8/6V6r8RBrZBI/s1600/4o.jpg)
Right Side of Fairway
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUY1SBt_QHI/AAAAAAAADnk/tp7yXmKOC8E/s1600/4G.jpg)
Left Greenside Bunker - Avoid at All Costs!
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUY1GNxwLdI/AAAAAAAADm0/I_f02EF0_Cc/s1600/4t.jpg)
Left Greenside Bunker - only slightly more acceptable!
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUY1RdiVJeI/AAAAAAAADnU/U4TrRQTwRSk/s1600/4J.jpg)
Just in front of Green
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUY1RjaT5_I/AAAAAAAADnc/6xb6aVunCaY/s1600/4H.jpg)
View from Collection Area Right of Green
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUY1F75KFuI/AAAAAAAADms/VsvefLviawE/s1600/4y.jpg)
View from Behind Hole Looking back toward Tee
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUY1HNokaKI/AAAAAAAADnM/VZ5De0R1Y8g/s1600/4K.jpg)
Different Angle Looking Back up Fairway
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUY1Gh9V56I/AAAAAAAADnE/zB-H_BVCk6U/s1600/4L.jpg)
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Matt, these pcitures are awesome.
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Awesome pictures. The two pictures of the players in the greenside bunkers really illustrate the difficulty of some of the shots out there!
Mark
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Is this course too difficult for most golfers?
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Is this course too difficult for most golfers?
Oh my no. It is from those back tees, for sure. But it's just like skiing or snowboarding.. only experts should tackle the double diamonds, right? The middle tees are VERY manageable for all; the short tees, I watched a 12 year old kid make lots of pars.
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This is an awesome thread. I love C&C!
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I saw the picture of someone hitting out of the bottom of the bunker, and laughed......so awesome.
Chris
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Is this course too difficult for most golfers?
Oh my no. It is from those back tees, for sure. But it's just like skiing or snowboarding.. only experts should tackle the double diamonds, right? The middle tees are VERY manageable for all; the short tees, I watched a 12 year old kid make lots of pars.
Tom:
In looking at various photos of SHills, I see:
-- Lots of forced carries off tees;
-- Extraordinarily penal bunkers;
-- Deep hay not far from mown fairways;
-- Very difficult chipping areas near greens.
I'd note, from what I've seen in pics, that it looks considerably more difficult than Ballyneal or Old Macdonald.
What am I missing about the lack of difficulty in this course?
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Phil:
You're likely missing these things:
1) from the middle or short tees, the carries off the tee are very manageable, if not non-existent
2) there are a few extraordinarly penal bunkers for sure, and those are death... but they too can be tacked around... they also don't exist on EVERY hole... you're just seeing some of the killers so far...
3) the hay is not that deep, or at least it hasn't been the three times I've been there. The pics here were taking after an period of extraordinary rain. One trip there I played 5 rounds with the same golf ball.. and I am decent, but not that good.
4) the chipping areas can be difficult, if one forces lob wedges off of them... they are all very manageable with the putter.
I would say that from the back tees, it is a very difficult course - far more difficult than Ballyneal at it's longest. But from the shorter tees, it is comparable. I have not been to Old Macdonald.
Hopefully that helps.
TH
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What's with the color of these photos? I'm all for firm and fast, brownish, yellowish turf but these colors seem to have a strange tint, too much saturation or RGB correction ...
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c60/NoSkillzMB/SandHills/4K.jpg)
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Huck, Do you know the course record from those back tees?
Mike, it is the photo. SH is kept greener than Ballyneal or any of the Bandon courses.
That's why Hucks statement (especially as a course rating guy) on the difficulty, seems odd, since BN's CR is 67. Even the best players prove short firm turf is a hazard
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Huck, Do you know the course record from those back tees?
No clue. I sorta recall reading on here that Faldo shot some great score early on.
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He shot 66 back in the day. Aced 13 too.
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Ada - gotcha - thanks, I remember that now.
And not to get into the tired old comparisons between these great courses again, but exactly what about my statements seemed odd? That I thought Sand Hills from the back tees was tougher than Ballyneal at it's longest?
Yes I am a course rating guy, and yes I know the numbers at Ballyneal.
As far as I can guess, well... Sand Hills' numbers would be quite a bit higher.
Course records prove little, I think.
NOTE: I am NOT AT ALL saying that Ballyneal is an easy course. I just do believe that Sand Hills is pretty damn tough from those double-diamonds. Short turf is a hazard indeed; just remember it exists at both places equally (at least in my experience).
Tom H.
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What's with the color of these photos? I'm all for firm and fast, brownish, yellowish turf but these colors seem to have a strange tint, too much saturation or RGB correction ...
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c60/NoSkillzMB/SandHills/4K.jpg)
Mike,
The majority of the photos were taken late in the day and the turf was just glowing at that point. The only adjustment I've made is a contrast correction, otherwise, what you see is what you get. The course was exceptionally green due to all the rain the area had but I can tell you it still played very firm and fast.
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Adam, Huck,
The course record is 61, I believe. There is/was a scorecard hanging in the golf shop. If memory serves me correctly (and it's been a few years) his name was Brad Lardon.
I'm sure Gene can shed some light if I am not correct.
Regarding difficulty, as I've said before, I think Sand Hills is a much more difficult course than Ballyneal, but is easier to go low on than Ballyneal, if that makes any sense at all. I have played Ballyneal much more than Sand Hills, but I've been under par a couple of times at SH from the tips, never at BN. I think the heavily contouring of the greens at BN make it much more difficult to score on than SH.
Scott
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I saw the course record score card in the pro shop bust can't remember it right now. I think it was something around 62 or 63.
The long grass off the fariways is not difficult to hit out of, so it's not a as penal as it may look. It seemed more often than not you had a shot out of there. It's no where near as thick as fescue I've come across at other courses.
As Tom said, you could play multiple rounds with one ball. Easier to find a ball in the long grass than you would think.
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Scott - that all works for me. It's all gonna depend on who we are talking about. Neither course is easy, that's for sure. But then again neither course is crazy hard, from any tees. Hell I managed some mid-70s rounds from the double diamonds at Sand Hills, so it can't be that hard.
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Adam, Huck,
The course record is 61, I believe. There is/was a scorecard hanging in the golf shop. If memory serves me correctly (and it's been a few years) his name was Brad Lardon.
I'm sure Gene can shed some light if I am not correct.
Regarding difficulty, as I've said before, I think Sand Hills is a much more difficult course than Ballyneal, but is easier to go low on than Ballyneal, if that makes any sense at all. I have played Ballyneal much more than Sand Hills, but I've been under par a couple of times at SH from the tips, never at BN. I think the heavily contouring of the greens at BN make it much more difficult to score on than SH.
Scott
I completely agree with this and was trying to put it into words like you did - I think if you're on your game, you can go lower at Sand Hills than Ballyneal but it's also much easier to blow up at SH. Much higher score dispersion at Sand Hills than Ballyneal. I don't have many rounds to base my assumption on but over six rounds at Sand Hills, my scores were between 75 and 85 while at Ballyneal over the same amount of rounds, there was only a four shot difference between high and low and it was right in the middle of the SH range (between 78 and 82).
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I think it all turns on the tees one plays and the conditions one faces. SOOO much changes at each course due to that. Thus what generalizations can any of us make?
We can't even use course rating and slope, which would usually work decently enough, because Sand Hills doesn't have such....
My personal experience differs with those stated so far. But hell, I have been to Sand Hills three times and Ballyneal twice.. my sample size is FAR too small to generalize.
So hell, let's get back to the tour. I am still waiting for a ho-hum green. Jeez even 4, which looks flat, has significant contour... and god help you if you have a right pin and your ball is left... roll, roll, roll down zee hill....
;D
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Huck:
One more post and then I eagerly await the rest of the tour.
I once (foolishly) got into a debate with Pat Mucci here about the difficulty of Pine Valley (never played; judgements all from pics and TV), arguing similar thoughts: lots of forced carries, extraordinary penal surrounds off the fairways and greens, no margin of error, the usual. Pat replied: Although not a course for beginners, it's wider than you think; it's not that long (from the proper tees); greens are manageable with proper placement on approaches. But in essence, Pat's final argument was one I couldn't counter -- if it was so hard, the membership of PV wouldn't enjoy playing it. And they do, ergo, it can't be THAT hard. (I'm still not convinced, but my lack of playing PV essentially led me to concede the debate.)
In Ran's recent review of Old Macdonald, he wrote:
"As such, with the possible exception of Yeamans Hall where Doak and Urbina have worked for years, the author can’t think of a single course more conducive for a grandfather, father, wife and child to play than here. Forced carries are at a minimum while the amount of acreage presented as short grass is at a maximum for any course built since World War Two."
"The strength and flexibility of its golf holes insures that it will continue to garner glowing critical reviews while also putting smiles on the faces of many recreational golfers."
"Another cool thing about Old Mac is that it might be the hardest course at the resort for good players and the easiest course for bad players, which is a really neat trick to pull off. Like at Yale, good players can hit 15 greens and not break 80. Getting even short irons close to hole locations on large greens have vexed golfers for a century plus at St. Andrews. At the same time, there are lots of ways at Old MacDonald to break 90 or 100 as you are almost guaranteed not to lose a ball." (intro to thread announcing OM course profile posting on this site)
This, to me, is the stuff of genius, GCA division -- a course both difficult for the serious golfer (and with all due respect, you're a serious golfer if you're a rater...not that there's anything wrong with that ;)), yet truly enjoyable for the casual, recreational golfer. That's what I've always wondered about Sand Hills. PValley, Winged Foot (East), Oakmont -- all were built to be serious, hard tests for golfers. I've played courses like that, and I really didn't have a lot of fun. SHills looks more like the latter (the Pine Valley of the prairies) than something along the likes of Old Macdonald. But I'm open to hearing other sides of it.
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Phil:
I have no way to respond to any of that, other than this: from the back tees Sand Hills is Shinnecock Hills.. from the middle tees it's NGLA.
I first said that years ago, and I think it still remains true.
So yes, my opinion is that Sand Hills clearly meets your definitions; that is, it is FAR closer to how you define Old Macdonald than it is to how you define Pine Valley and Oakmont. Remenber what I wrote above - I watched a 12 year old make lots of pars... I watched a 70+ year old have great fun... each fine players, yes, but neither able to hit it more than 175 yards or so... but the point remains, it all turns on the tees one plays. But you're never going to know any of this until you play it. I hope you get that wonderful opportunity.
One final thing: I have long trumpeted Sand Hills as the greatest course on this planet. I have also said in here many times (back when I used to post a lot) that I have little use for stern tests of golf; I can see calling them great, but they are not my cup of tea.
Put that logic together... how could I of all people call Sand Hills #1 if it were not far closer, if not directly meeting, how you describe Old Macdonald?
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Adam, Huck,
The course record is 61, I believe. There is/was a scorecard hanging in the golf shop. If memory serves me correctly (and it's been a few years) his name was Brad Lardon.
I'm sure Gene can shed some light if I am not correct.
Regarding difficulty, as I've said before, I think Sand Hills is a much more difficult course than Ballyneal, but is easier to go low on than Ballyneal, if that makes any sense at all. I have played Ballyneal much more than Sand Hills, but I've been under par a couple of times at SH from the tips, never at BN. I think the heavily contouring of the greens at BN make it much more difficult to score on than SH.
Scott
I completely agree with this and was trying to put it into words like you did - I think if you're on your game, you can go lower at Sand Hills than Ballyneal but it's also much easier to blow up at SH. Much higher score dispersion at Sand Hills than Ballyneal. I don't have many rounds to base my assumption on but over six rounds at Sand Hills, my scores were between 75 and 85 while at Ballyneal over the same amount of rounds, there was only a four shot difference between high and low and it was right in the middle of the SH range (between 78 and 82).
These thoughts are very interesting. I’ll get to see for myself at SH in August, and BN in Sept. Wow, these pics (and the B lack and White from BN) really have me itching.
My question is if I don’t play the tips (which I likely will NOT) does the chance to evaluate scoring on a comparison basis as stated above change?
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Huck:
Thanks -- that helps clarify a lot, and I hadn't encountered your're back-tee/middle-tee/NGLA reference. I've long wondered about whether SHills is just one tough test of golf, or just a SOB from the back tees. It looks like the former, but sounds more like the latter, and I have to take your word for that without playing it.
Conceding arguments to both Mucci and Huckaby -- is that a GCA first? ;)
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Huckaby and Mucci in any sentence other than one showing vehement disagreement would be a GCA first.
:)
And you need not concede, though I appreciate the gesture. I can see how it looks in these pictures, and others. And heck, I have always also supported people going ahead and analyzing via pictures - no problem there.
It's just that in this case... I don't think they tell the proper story.
I have never had so much fun playing the game than my rounds at Sand Hillls. I am a 4 handicap and not long off the tee. The tips generally kicked my butt, but in a fun challenging way... especially since I knew I could move back to the middles, and have so many more action/birdie holes...
The same thing occurs at Ballyneal, btw. That's why BOTH of these are so great.
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Most of the discussion about hole #4 centers around avoiding the pit to the left of the green at all costs. While it certainly is a worthy hazard, what many people fail to realize is how treacherous missing to the RIGHT of the green can be. In my first visit, one in my group tried chipping a couple of times and had the ball roll back to his feet. Then he grabbed a putter (the right choice in the first place!) and had the same thing happen. Then he hit his next shot a bit harder and it went through the green and up into the native, from where he proceeded to chop it out and have it roll back to within a few feet of his original play. He went straight to the fifth tee, ball in pocket, tail between legs, muttering to himself the whole way.
While over a few beers later in the evening he reluctantly admitted that the 4th was his favorite hole of all :D, as it is mine. It's not one that many people gush over, but with all that it has to offer, it is my favorite of all at the Sand Hills.
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I would put the difficulty of Sand Hills as comparable to Pacific Dunes - maybe a bit more difficult tee to green but less difficult on the greens. These pictures emphasize the difficult slopes and hazards but many of the slopes help you and the fairways are up to 90 yards wide. For example, on the third, you simply have to hit the tee shot to the left and it feeds on the green.
You usually have some sort of shot from the scrub - often an easier shot than you would have from moderate rough on a parkland course.
Forced carries to the fairways are not an issue. I do not remember even thinking about them from the back tees and I am too short off the tee to play back tees at most modern courses. I struggle with some of them at Sutton Bay into the wind but at Sand Hills they are no problem.
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Matt:
I just visited Sand Hills last week and the course had just the right amount of "crispiness" throughout.
The greens were like an ice rink and there was plenty of roll on all our shots.
The pics appear to represent that fact: A fair amount of brown hue where Kyle (the super) is just giving the grass enough water to stay alive.
Was this your experience while you were there or did the heavy rains slow things down a bit?
Gene
Gene,
Maybe you can comment.
Out of curiosity, how large is Kyle's maintenance staff at the club? I am very ignorant about the maintenace practices of the prairie courses versus those of other more mainstream locations. And, maybe it's just me and my opinion, but the course shows a remarkable maturity in these photos when I compare them to other shots I've seen of the golf course course. You already touched on it above, but it even looks crisp and bit more tight than I thought it was from those photos.
Huck and Spaulding are starting to wear on me a bit with their opinion of SH--in a good way. Every time I see it, it looks better.
Ben:
There are 19 members of the maintenance staff. They do an amazing job of pushing the limits during normal summer weather patterns and put in triple time during and after abnormal ones (such as what Matt experienced) in order to present the course at its best.
The course is browner during the latter part of July and August. In June, the area has just completed its spring rains so the course might appear more lush at this time.
The greens are among the fastest and truest in the world and I have regularly watched better golfers crash and burn on them. So the comment about these greens being easier than such and such a place seems odd. I have only witnessed one golfer in 14 years master the greens from the get go. However, coincidentally enough, he also was the only golfer who played three consecutive days with out any wind. Nada.
And anyone who has played Sand Hills on several consecutive days knows that the wind will appear and is usually a constant and must be factored into reading a putt.
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Sorry for the little break - I'll post a couple more holes tomorrow and continue the tour.
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5th Hole - 412 Yards Par 4
The 5th hole brings the first instance of a centerline hazard into the mix at Sand Hills. From the back tees, the hole plays at a slight angle and the tee ball must be played over the back of the 4th green and over the native area to a very wide fairway made smaller by the presence of a bunker right in the middle of the target area.
The ideal tee shot has to flirt with that bunker in order to get a clear view of the green, which sits slightly elevated from the fairway in the middle and even more elevated should you miss on the left side, as the fairway slopes off dramatically to the left, propelling many draws or hooks into the left rough.
The approach shot is played uphill to a longish but narrow putting surface featuring a subtle spine that runs down the length of the green in the middle, with the green flanked on the right by a large bunker. There is a lot of short grass around the green here as well, giving some neat options around the green.
Tee Shot from the Back Tee
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUY35IiPfgI/AAAAAAAADos/Xxr3ajiXCI8/s1600/5B.jpg)
Tee Shot from the Middle Tee
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUY35SZ06yI/AAAAAAAADo0/bCqHCQimx08/s1600/5D.jpg)
Approach from Middle of Fairway behind Centerline Bunker
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUY35_rTRXI/AAAAAAAADo8/wAyZwwGqNGs/s1600/5p.jpg)
Approach from Middle of Fairway Past Centerline Hazard
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUY35yRQnPI/AAAAAAAADpE/RTTNPQpI-Us/s1600/5E.jpg)
Partially Blind Approach from Behind Right Fairway Bunker
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUY36h1EhVI/AAAAAAAADpM/Am7R0_jg2GU/s1600/5o.jpg)
Approach from Right Fairway Bunker
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUY3qcGqMCI/AAAAAAAADok/YcRw-BKaJPA/s1600/5F.jpg)
Approach from Left Side of Fairway in Lower Area, leaving blind second over bunker
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUY3qCtopxI/AAAAAAAADoc/2aRBAueR4h4/s1600/5H.jpg)
View from Left Side of Green Looking at Right Greenside Bunker
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUY3p5jk4AI/AAAAAAAADoU/fDb5JiiozTY/s1600/5s.jpg)
View from Back Left of Green Looking Back
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUY3pcFyx-I/AAAAAAAADoM/DC3YdrJPLyk/s1600/5I.jpg)
View from Behind Green Looking Back down Fairway
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUY3pBi-XzI/AAAAAAAADoE/iSuu4FmgUbE/s1600/5t.jpg)
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Looks like an emphasis on the short game. From those pictures if you miss the green it appears to leave some fun up and down attemps. True?
Anthony
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I have felt that #'s 1 & 5 have a similar feel with respect to the approach shot and green - the green is uphill and sits between the dunes and is deep - naturally #1 us deeper than #5 but you are playing a longer shot into #5. (Unless you are going for #1 in two.)
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What would be the 'weakest' hole at SH, and also the best hole on the property in your opinion Matt? Why?
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I have only witnessed one golfer in 14 years master the greens from the get go. However, coincidentally enough, he also was the only golfer who played three consecutive days with out any wind. Nada.
Based on the prevailing wind discussion of 6 months ago, my money is on Pat Mucci being this mysterious master of the greens ;D
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Looks like an emphasis on the short game. From those pictures if you miss the green it appears to leave some fun up and down attemps. True?
Anthony
Definately so; I got up and down from the golfers left with a chip that I literally could have breathed on and gotten it to the hole. Excellent stuff; although I still stand by what I said regarding the greens; they are by no means easy but they are tamer than I expected inregards to the internal countour, you will see what I mean from here on in; 1-3 are wild; from then on they seemed to have gotten tamer. I am interested to see ifr my memory is correct.
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Kenny - your point about the greens continues to escape me. That is, I just don't get it. Sure, not every one has elephant humps in it. But every one seems to have the potential for a LOT of break... the potential to putt off the green... the potential for very very interesting and difficult chips and puts.... some just have more TILT than contour... but does that make them ho-hum? I just don't get the "ho-hum" comment.
You're 0 for 5 so far. And 6-7-8-9 aren't gonna make your case either... but please do keep reading....
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What would be the 'weakest' hole at SH, and also the best hole on the property in your opinion Matt? Why?
Interesting question Michael - maybe I'll wait until the end of the tour to try to answer this toughie. More pics coming today!
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Tom, are you going to say that #4 has alot of movement; it is as flat as a board; I had a putt from the front ctr of the green to back ctr and it broke 6 inches outside the left. As is the left side of #5; #6 has some movement but #7 is very flat and #8 I can't remember the contours that well. I am not saying that is poor but it is what it is; they all have intersting chips and pitch shots but they are what they are.
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Tom, are you going to say that #4 has alot of movement; it is as flat as a board; I had a putt from the front ctr of the green to back ctr and it broke 6 inches outside the left. As is the left side of #5; #6 has some movement but #7 is very flat and #8 I can't remember the contours that well. I am not saying that is poor but it is what it is; they all have intersting chips and pitch shots but they are what they are.
Yes, they are what they are.
#4 - any shot from the left side to the right side requires extreme touch lest one's ball roll off the green and all the way down the hill. That's ho-hum?
#5 - look at the pic - there's an internal ridge - plus it also tilts from right to left pretty sharply - no easy shots anywhere near or on that green, except the one you got I guess. ;D
#6 - humps deluxe, but I guess that counts as "some movement." ;)
#7 - tilted pretty hard back to front and let to right - "flat" does not adequately describe it.
#8 - wait for the pic, I guess. The fact you can't remember it is not helping your case.
Kenny, you are all wet with this... but that's cool. If these greens are ho-hum ,I really want to know what rocks your world.
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Tom, are you going to say that #4 has alot of movement; it is as flat as a board; I had a putt from the front ctr of the green to back ctr and it broke 6 inches outside the left. As is the left side of #5; #6 has some movement but #7 is very flat and #8 I can't remember the contours that well. I am not saying that is poor but it is what it is; they all have intersting chips and pitch shots but they are what they are.
Can't remember the contours of #8?
"#6 has SOME movement"?
Forget your memory. (No pun).
Are you sure you played the golf course? ???
Go to Ran's profile of Sand Hills and look at the picture of the handsome fellow putting at dusk on the sixth green which is the next hole due up in Matt's picture show. See how his head is at the same level of the mogul further up the green? There is twenty feet of green beyond that mogul. AND you could ski down that green. What more are you looking for short of putting on a mine field???
When you were on #4 or #7 did you try putting in the other direction ? Probably not or you would have felt your sphincter tighten.
A nice balance of subtle and not so subtle green contours, tiliting and angulations are what makes great greens.
18 HOLES OF SILLY CHAOTIC MICRO MOUNDING DOES NOT EQUAL GREAT GOLF ARCHITECTURE!!!
Just look at the unquestionably great Shinnecock Hills Golf Club for elegant greens with long smooth contouring and some "flat" areas to create some balance and flow.
The course possesses only some of what you and some other misguided individuals on here have been led to believe about great greens and many think Shinnecock is the flat out greatest course in the world.
Even the incomparable National Golf Links of America, Bill Coore's #1 course in the world, has a few of what you would term "flat" greens....2,5,7,8,9,14,17.
One needs variety of all kinds in designing a set of greens not a continual dose of looking for the clown's mouth to create "interest".
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The cavalry has arrived.
;D
Many thanks for the rescue, my friend.
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The cavalry has arrived.
very good Huck! :D
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...I still stand by what I said regarding the greens; they are by no means easy but they are tamer than I expected inregards to the internal countour, you will see what I mean from here on in; 1-3 are wild; from then on they seemed to have gotten tamer. I am interested to see ifr my memory is correct.
I was catching up on this thread and came across this line. I knew Huck would be all over it! ;D ;)
Then I wondered if Kenny may have played the course doing a drink a hole or something with his perception being that it got tamer as he went along. This may explain the "seemed" to have gotten tamer VS had gotten tamer.
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I tried to stay out of it... really I did. It's kinda boring when all I ever talk about is Sand Hills.
So now that the real expert has arrived, well... my work is done.
;)
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Incidentally - I love that tee shot on 5 from the back tee even though I seemed to always find that fairway bunker. Teeing off over the prior green in that fashion seems to present little traffic difficulty because the group behind should not be to the green while the group teeing off is still there. I'm siure liability and potential traffic problems prevent widespread use but it is a fun way to create different sets of tees with distance flexibility while limiting the green to tee walk for all.
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6th Hole - 198 Yards Par 3
The 6th is another very strong par 3 with plenty of defenses. Off the tee, you have to carry over some native area and navigate both a large and intimidating bunker complex short left along with a smaller but equally devilish bunker protecting the front right portion of the green.
There is a lot more room than you think beyond that left bunker and shots that clear it will be kicked forward and right toward the putting surface. If the pin is right and you hit short of the little bunker, you will have a ticklish little pitch up the hill and it will be near impossible to stop the ball near the flag, especially if it's cut in front.
There is a tremendous amount of slope on this green and putts from the left side to a right pin will be well uphill. There are a couple ridges on this very large green and everything essentially falls from back right to front left, with some slight exceptions in certain areas. I found this to be one of the more difficult putting surfaces to read on the golf course.
Tee Shot
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUY5ZLYa25I/AAAAAAAADp0/9EdRVw0xzx4/s1600/6A.jpg)
Harris Nepon takes a nice cut on his tee shot
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUY5Y7YgGOI/AAAAAAAADps/Rs-c1pud6iQ/s1600/6C.jpg)
Coolest Divot Mix cans on the planet, with Sand Hills logo branded in...we wanted to buy a couple of these as souvenirs!
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUY5Yq0QjPI/AAAAAAAADpk/B1VeR22UKcc/s1600/6n.jpg)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUY5Yf8-xjI/AAAAAAAADpc/_KRAz2nQJUo/s1600/6o.jpg)
Behind Green looking back toward Tee
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUY5YFrx9GI/AAAAAAAADpU/3MCwdz8EdUU/s1600/6E.jpg)
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What do people think of number 6? I think it made the least impression on me of any holes on the course. I simply can't remember much good or bad about the hole other than the mound making it a bit awkward off the tee.
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Jason, I think you may have just summoned the cavalry again! While the seventh is my favorite hole on the course, I know someone who feels that way about the 6th. You have some semi blind pin placements, you have a tremendous amount of movement on the greens, and hitting the greens does not ensure a par. It may well be the most underestimated hole on the course.
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Jason,
I remember pushing a 5 iron a smidge to the middle back portion of the green and watched it roll to the left out of sight. If I remember correctly, you could barely see the pin sitting front left from the tee.
Walked down the hill and my ball was 5 feet from the pin.
What I remember the most was trying to hit the same shot later on in the day, only to of course pull the tee ball into the weeds wide left. ;D
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7th Hole - 283 Yards Par 4
Sand Hills proves that you can not only have two great short par fours on one course but also that you can have two world-class short par fours in a row.
The 7th is likely on a short list of the greatest drivable par fours in the world. Only 283 from the back tees and 231 from the 'Circle' tees, it's likely reachable for the majority of players under the right conditions. But is taking driver here the smart play?
The hole features a very inviting fairway, with some fairway bunkers right off the tee that are pretty deep. But the real hazard here is the terrifyingly deep bunker complex in the front left. Hitting out of here onto the green is akin to hitting a ball onto the hood of a Cadillac and trying to make it stop. The green is elevated from fairway grade, is very small and it's pitched severely from left to right. There is also a false front to navigate and balls that fall off the green to the right will fall about 15-20 feet down the slope onto a lower chipping area.
The green looks so close from the tee and really tantalizes the player into giving it a go but I found that the smart play was to get it out short and right of the green, allowing for either a full wedge or a pitch into the green at an angle where the green slopes against the shot. Therefore, downwind, I'd hit a long iron or hybrid club while feeling comfortable hitting driver when the wind was in our face.
I also found that you could use the slope on the green to your advantage on the second shot if you were far enough to the right - you could play your pitch slightly long through the green into the fringe and the ball would come back off the slope toward the middle of the green.
If you do want to try to drive the green, you will have to flirt with that left greenside bunker or you have absolutely no shot of holding the green.
Putting is no bargain here - even though there aren't major contours, the pitch of the green means any putts played from the back left will be almost unbearably fast.
A world-class hole in every respect and easily one of my favourites on the golf course.
Tee Shot
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUY6jJjyt5I/AAAAAAAADqs/Q1nLF4Z5JKk/s1600/7B.jpg)
Approach Shot from 90 Yards
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUY6itlUdHI/AAAAAAAADqk/-TKNTI_T-xk/s1600/7C.jpg)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUY6iTaLRQI/AAAAAAAADqc/yv9V147jrAc/s1600/7D.jpg)
Approach Shot from Right Fairway Bunker
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUY6bRGHXDI/AAAAAAAADqU/9wiVHXCzCGI/s1600/7E.jpg)
Looking back at Left Greenside Bunker
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUY6bNDioCI/AAAAAAAADqM/5Iyji47F0ok/s1600/7G.jpg)
Closeup from Behind Green Looking Back to Tee
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUY6a8aMg3I/AAAAAAAADqE/CL5A4dBNZRQ/s1600/7F.jpg)
Long View from Behind Green Looking Back to Tee
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUY6agH2sJI/AAAAAAAADp8/48VQG8MQAbA/s1600/7o.jpg)
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What do people think of number 6? I think it made the least impression on me of any holes on the course. I simply can't remember much good or bad about the hole other than the mound making it a bit awkward off the tee.
My favorite hole on the course. :o
The multitude of combinations of pin placements, wind directions, wind speeds, angles and distances along with a green "which has SOME movement" makes this one of the premier par 3s in this world.
Largest or second largest teeing ground on the entire course along with 17 both for the same reason: to create many different looks and approaches to the pin.
The variety is seemingly endless on this hole.
For example, when the pin is cut in the back beyond the hump and one is playing into the wind from the left side of the tee box it is almost a do or die tee shot...either hit it hard enough to get it over the hump or roll back 30 feet and leave yourself with one of the hardest putts anyplace. When the tee is moved to the right it exposes more of an opening to work your tee shot towards the flag with the hump away from your direct line. Of course, that nasty little bunker ("little" being a relative term when speaking of hazards at Sand Hills) now comes more into play. The more highly skilled golfer may elect to take one more club and hit a slight draw from the left tee and aim slightly away from the hump and bring his ball around utilizing the back right slope to allow the ball to feed down back towards the pin. But one brings that really big back right bunker into play by doing this but the player may then utilize the OTHER side of the hump as a backstop when playing his bunker shot.
And THAT is just one pin with one wind direction.
We haven't spoken of cross winds.
Or helping winds... on a hole set in the center of the golf course which transitions from higher elevation to the lowest part and is thus exposed to every little gust that blows through the place.
Nor the available pins and the consequences of leaving your ball on the wrong part of the green with some of them. Sorry, that's a four putt.
Welcome to the midwest's version of Augusta National during Master's Week.
Heck, up until last year there was a blind pin in the lower left part of the green with the tees set toward the left but Ben and/or Bill came in and clipped a bit off the top of that huge blowout to expose the top 1/3 of the flag. Easiest pin on the hole. Very Dell like. Very fun and the inspiration for my favorite at Friar's, the great #10.
In "The Confidential Guide" Doak has his "31 Flavors". Pine Valley is listed among those courses as is Sand Hills. Tom denotes special holes at Pine Valley and at all those courses with exclamation points (!). Pine Valley has three holes with a double exclamation point (!!).
Sand Hills has two.
#6 is one of those holes.
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In "The Confidential Guide" Doak has his "31 Flavors". Pine Valley is listed among those courses as is Sand Hills. Tom denotes special holes at Pine Valley and at all those courses with exclamation points (!). Pine Valley has three holes with a double exclamation point (!!).
Sand Hills has two.
#6 is one of those holes.
Gene - My guess is that #6 is one of those holes where one needs to experience a good bit of the variety that you mention to fully appreciate the hole. From a brief, two day visit, I too felt that #6 was one of the least "memorable" on the course - relatively speaking of course as I pretty clearly recalled all 18. Some of the holes, like #14 for me and #1 or #17 for many countless others, are probably a little easier to appreciate quickly without the vast amount of experience that you've had at the course.
Just cracked open my copy to see what the other !! was. If we had played the game of guess Doak's !! at Sand Hills I may have exhausted nearly every hole on the course before I went for either of those two. Very interesting.
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Tim:
Good point. Multiple plays are a distinct advantage for us amateurs to use when assessing a golf course.
However, for the keen eye, such as Ran's, Ben C's or Tom Ds it just takes one go 'round.
And in some cases, none.
Remember, Sand Hills hadn't even been completely built yet when Tom included it in his book.
It was nice meeting you at Sand Hills some years back.
You'll have to return so you can see the greatness of #6 for yourself and I would be happy to show you the finer points personally.
Gene
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Gene - Interesting point you make about the course not being completely built when Tom included it. Would be interesting to know if he'd still mark those two as his !! if he were to write the review today.
I still recall feeling a bit unsure and rude when I interrupted your dinner that evening. As a GCA newbie at the time I thought it was really cool to see a familiar name on the table. I may have my timeline wrong, but I believe you were the 2nd person from this web site that I ever met. Mike Hendren was the first.
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I thought #7 was one of the best holes on the course. I truly enjoy the driveable par 4's on any course, but this one truly is the best I've ever seen.
I didn't take the same approach as Matt on the trip, I tried to drive it all 6 times I played it. I think i got on the green once, and was in the large bunker left twice. That bunker is nasty. One trip in there cost me 3 strokes trying to get out.
I don't have the best description of the hole, but I can recognize and respect just how amazing this short par 4 is.
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35 days until I get to weigh in! ;D Needless to say, threads like this really help one get even MORE excited for a trip to Sand Hills (if that's possible). Thanks, and looking forward to the next 11 holes!
Matt, how about a high draw into No. 7? You said you have to challenge the bunker on left to hold green, but it looks like a nice high draw would work. If not, why?
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What do people think of number 6? I think it made the least impression on me of any holes on the course. I simply can't remember much good or bad about the hole other than the mound making it a bit awkward off the tee.
My favorite hole on the course. :o
The multitude of combinations of pin placements, wind directions, wind speeds, angles and distances along with a green "which has SOME movement" makes this one of the premier par 3s in this world.
. . . .
In "The Confidential Guide" Doak has his "31 Flavors". Pine Valley is listed among those courses as is Sand Hills. Tom denotes special holes at Pine Valley and at all those courses with exclamation points (!). Pine Valley has three holes with a double exclamation point (!!).
Sand Hills has two.
#6 is one of those holes.
Thanks for the explanation Gene. Sand Hills is my favorite course I have played.
Some day I will visit again and pay particular attention to this hole. It reminds me a bit visually of 16 at Barnbougle.
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35 days until I get to weigh in! ;D Needless to say, threads like this really help one get even MORE excited for a trip to Sand Hills (if that's possible). Thanks, and looking forward to the next 11 holes!
Matt, how about a high draw into No. 7? You said you have to challenge the bunker on left to hold green, but it looks like a nice high draw would work. If not, why?
A high draw can work if you can fly it all the way to the green but due to the elevated nature of the green on the right side, rolling or bouncing a shot in from that side is not an overly realistic option. It would have to be *very* high to hold the green as well. And drawing it too much can yield disastrous results. :)
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OK, I was going to start a new thread about this, but I will just do it on this one.
Recently, I was talking to someone (who will remain anonymous) who declared emphatically that Sand Hills is a Doak 5!!!
His main reason for such a low ratings were following:
-The course is too soft with too severe false fronts to allow a ground game
-It looks like a links course, but it is just a facade.
-Raised tee, drive to a lower fairway, hit approach to a raised green. Rinse and repeat.
-It is over-rated because it was the first to start the modern renaissance, but it has been surpassed by many since.
I have personally never played the course so I have no opinion in this subject (although I was highly skeptical), but I would love to hear from others who know better about whether or not this is a fair critcism of the course.
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Richard:
If Sand Hills is a Doak 5, the rest of the world is filled with Doak 4s.
I find none of those criticisms to be valid at all. I can only guess that the person making them played the course after torrential rains or something. I have never found it to be soft at all.. in my three times there, it was always very very firm and fast... and in fact the ground game was often the best play, if not only play one had. There are several raised greens (a tired critique given in here many times before) but not to the point of repetition.. and given the play is often to roll the ball up them, I don't get the criticism. I see no repetition either in terms of the tee shots or shots to the greens. I suppose the last point might be valid, but so few people see the course, it kinda loses logic... especially since I've yet to play, read about or hear about a course that surpasses it.
I'd advise keeping the skepticism; or at the very least, wait to see for yourself.
TH
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Tom, but aren't they bent grass greens? And I have read from many different articles on how SH does like to keep them immaculate for its national members who only visit few times a year. How firm could they be? Do you get that hollow "thunk" sound when you land on the green like you do at Bandon and Ballyneal? Can you bounce a ball from 30 yards short of the green? That was a pretty popular play at Ballyneal last weekend even through the course was a green as I have ever seen it due to all the rain they had recently.
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Richard:
Yes, yes, and yes.
At least the three times I have been there, it has played firmer and faster than Ballyneal did either of the two times I was there, or Bandon any of the three trips I have made there. The greens are bent, yes, but they also played very very firm when I was there.
It just has to be seen to be believed, I suppose.
But it also might depend on weather the day(s) one is there, as it does at every golf course.
TH
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My reverse Mucci!
-The course is too soft with too severe false fronts to allow a ground game
-It looks like a links course, but it is just a facade.
It is not a links course to my mind. Instead it is a unique challenge that does not fit neatly into any category.
With respect to firmness - I played it during a full day of rain and the day after. It was plenty firm both days. It looked very green but the ball ran forever.
I have heard the false front argument before - particularly with respect to 1 and 13. I don't buy it. I think they are a terrific way to impose fear on the golfer while giving everyone options for recovery shots. Keep in mind, in many instances the approach is a very short iron with an option to reach the green in less than regulation.
As to ground game - I would hazard a guess that the ground game is as viable an option at Sand Hills as it is at Dornoch. The only hole where it is not a reasonable alternative at all is number 17 and I recall individuals very familiar with the course arguing that one should use the bit of fairway short right in certain conditions.
-Raised tee, drive to a lower fairway, hit approach to a raised green. Rinse and repeat.-
I can only think of 4 holes that fit this description (1, 4, 7, 11). Those holes are a par five, reachable or a bear depending on wind, a 485 yard downhill par four, a driveable par four and a short nondriveable par four. Each hole presents a very unique challenge distinct from the others.
It is over-rated because it was the first to start the modern renaissance, but it has been surpassed by many since.
As to whether others have surpassed it - I have played some of the contenders (Barnbougle, Pacific Dunes, Bandon Dunes, Bandon Trails, Kingsley) and do not share that view. I have never been to Ballyneal and I am sure it is wonderful but I cannot imagine how it could be considered to have "surpassed" Sand Hills.
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Richard, I have played Sand Hills twice, once in July of '09 after a record rainfall and once in JUn '10. I have only played Bandon once, that was in April '10. Obviously the time of year and the weather before each trip affects the conditions, however I did not think that Bandon played any Firmer or Faster than Snad HIlls. In fact, the greens at Sand Hills were def daster than all the greens at Bandon (in my limited experience.) As for the ground game, I had the pleasure of playing with Neil Regan, and he was able to PUTT from over a hundred yards several times during the weekend, in fact, he proved that on several holes, with some imagination, that the putt may have been better than any chip.
Interestingly, the raised and sloped nature of the greens were precisely why Neil did so well with the ground game. For instance, the second green is slighlty uphill with a large slop on the right side. From 30 yeards, Neil was able to use the slope to putt all the way up the hill, kill the speed and have the ball trickle down to the hole. I am not sure any flop shot would have gotten closer.
I think that maybe your friend went on a day or weekend that was severely hampered by previous rain. I myself have not had that experience.
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OK, I was going to start a new thread about this, but I will just do it on this one.
Recently, I was talking to someone (who will remain anonymous) who declared emphatically that Sand Hills is a Doak 5!!!
Richard,
This is a rather bold opinion. Was this person, I'm guessing he has a GCA log-in, willing to participate in this thread you were going to start? Surely if he was "emphatic" about this opinion, there is no harm in coming out and saying it himself and seeing where the debate may lead. It is a fascinating opinion and it would be interesting to further explore the 'why'?
Could someone please post the definition of a Doak 5? Thanks.
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5. Well above the average golf course, but the middle of my scale. A good course to choose if you’re in the vicinity and looking for a game, but don’t spend another day away from home to see it, unless your home is in Alaska.
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Gotta be a 5 at best, I think. There are no trees.....
I am guessing that this person thinks Ballyneal is a 10. Am I right? (I have no idea who it is btw)
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Wow, that is funny. I am assuming that Richard's friend was not thinking of the actual definition as much as a mid range score (Not that it makes it much better). But the line about not spending another day away from home is comical when it comes to Sand Hills. When I have been there, it has always been for far too short, and I did no exaclty get homesick.
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5. Well above the average golf course, but the middle of my scale. A good course to choose if you’re in the vicinity and looking for a game, but don’t spend another day away from home to see it, unless your home is in Alaska.
This seals the deal on my seeing Ashburnham in September. Thanks JB.
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I am not going to reveal the identity of the person as that is not really that important.
But let me ask a couple of more questions.
1. For a ground game to be viable, the speed on the fairway vs green should be similar (within 2 or 3 feet on stimp). Otherwise, the guessing game gets to be too much. Are the speed on the green similar to the speed on the fairways? They are at Bandon and Ballyneal.
2. Isn't Whistling Straits in similar vains as Sand Hills? Looks like a true links course, but doesn't quite play like one with bent grass greens? What are the main differences between Sand Hills and Whistling Straits (specifically, other than pure aesthetics)? Why is one beloved here and the other treated so indifferently?
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Dick Choi:
I believe said moron was at the Yucca......and I think he gave it a whopping 6. Even Halliday, with all of his hermaphroditic shortcomings, rates it higher than that.
My crack team of C&C Music Factory Butt Boys tried, at length to convince said moron that Sand Hills is indeed a 10, which I firmly believe. Even a Blue Moon frontal attack would not work.
In the words of my hero....."SIGH".
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hermaphroditic shortcomings... That is CLASSIC!
ROFL!!!!
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I am not going to reveal the identity of the person as that is not really that important.
But let me ask a couple of more questions.
1. For a ground game to be viable, the speed on the fairway vs green should be similar (within 2 or 3 feet on stimp). Otherwise, the guessing game gets to be too much. Are the speed on the green similar to the speed on the fairways? They are at Bandon and Ballyneal.
2. Isn't Whistling Straits in similar vains as Sand Hills? Looks like a true links course, but doesn't quite play like one with bent grass greens? What are the main differences between Sand Hills and Whistling Straits (specifically, other than pure aesthetics)? Why is one beloved here and the other treated so indifferently?
1 = yes, they are similar in my experience.
2 = no, it has little or nothing to do with Kohler. The differences are too many to list out during the work week, and I would rather change poopy diapers on the weekend.
Also, get back on that new OS so I can dump this iPhone :'(
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Spaulding:
I thought we agreed not to speak of your late night solicitation. Oh, and one man does not constitute a crack team...unless your name is Tim Raines.
Pull: You can play the ground game at Sand Hills, but it's not the preferred method if you are intent on scoring.
Yank: Ballyneal is Tom Doak's Long Cove.
I will now rinse the sink.
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"Pull: You can play the ground game at Sand Hills, but it's not the preferred method if you are intent on scoring."
Not sure one can make that generalization.
For those with the great skill required to hit spinning shots off of tight lies, flying it to the hole for a hop and stop is typically the better play. I watched Pat Mucci kill me doing this, in general. But there were also times that even for a great player like him, the better play was to keep it along the ground... he killed me doing that also.
For those without such skill or confidence, there does seem to usually be a way to roll the ball at least decently. I managed to score quite well with this method, hiding my short-game deficiencies.
What was vexing at Sand Hills though was there were a few times that the best shot was indeed to channel my inner Mucci, suck it up and put a wedge on the ball. That is, it did indeed make more sense to go over something rather than around it. This ratcheted up the intensity... and also required more planning for the previous miss... that is, for a guy like me with a Joe-average, unconfident wedge game, there were plenty of times I really had to plan in terms of a "don't miss there or we're dead" kinda thing. Add to that the options for using backboards, side boards, mounds etc. to help get the ball to the hole if I couldn't channel my Mucci, and well...
The variety of it all made for supremely fun play.
But then again, most great courses work this way.
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I am not going to reveal the identity of the person as that is not really that important.
But let me ask a couple of more questions.
1. For a ground game to be viable, the speed on the fairway vs green should be similar (within 2 or 3 feet on stimp). Otherwise, the guessing game gets to be too much. Are the speed on the green similar to the speed on the fairways? They are at Bandon and Ballyneal.
2. Isn't Whistling Straits in similar vains as Sand Hills? Looks like a true links course, but doesn't quite play like one with bent grass greens? What are the main differences between Sand Hills and Whistling Straits (specifically, other than pure aesthetics)? Why is one beloved here and the other treated so indifferently?
Yes, this is deserving of its own thread. I'd love to see the discourse outside of a hole by hole thread.
There is no shame in that opinion or that thread (of course this is coming from the man who started a thread labeling 99% of Florida courses as Doak 0's)
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There is no shame in that opinion or that thread (of course this is coming from the man who started a thread labeling 99% of Florida courses as Doak 0's)
[/quote]
An instant classic!
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Richard - I will try a more balanced response since you are getting the over the top love responses to counter the obviously under-clubbed review. When everyone gushes yes, yes, yes I think it can be hard to believe. Try this out for size. The one trip I enjoyed at Sand Hills it was NOT as firm and fast as Pacific Dunes has been on every visit i have made to Bandon. Now, 3 of my 4 trips to Bandon have been in the dry warm summer season. Sand Hills was also not as firm and fast as Kingsley in my one visit there. I have been to Ballyneal on three occasions and on two of them Ballyneal was slower than my visit to Sand Hills and on my third and most recent visit Ballyneal was faster. Wild Horse was also running faster.
Now that is just level setting. Faster doesn't always equal better. Sand Hills is an amazing course, certainly one of the best in the country and probably the world though my golf experiences are domestic. Which course runs faster is nitpicking as all the courses I mentioned were playing sufficiently firm enough to be enjoyable.
There is NO comparison to Whistling Straits. Straits was pure faux links when I visited. Sand Hills played like the real deal. Maybe not quite as firm and fast as the others but the ground game was alive and it was plenty fast.
Hopefully a balanced yet still glowing review will convince you.
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Bent grass greens can play plenty firm if maintained correctly.
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Tim:
Well done, well said. That is a fine and balanced response. A lot of this does turn on weather conditions, time of year, etc. as I said early on. In my experience all three times at Sand Hills, it was indeed firmer and faster than the others mentioned, each time I have been to those; but then again Wild Horse was even more so the one time I was there; and my local muni beats them all in this respect. But I never was at Sand Hills after any rain, so who knows? In any case, we can only base it on our experiences. And the bottom line remains that firmer and faster does not necessarily equal better, as you quite nicely explained.
Just careful with the aspersions...
I for one did not go over the top nor gush.
Not this time. ;D
I just answered the questions.
But oh well, it is a course worth gushing about.
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When I think of Fast & Firm, I think the emphasis is on "Firm". And my understanding was that while bent grass green could be tricked to play firm for a specific event/week, you can't really keep it that way for a whole season. If I am wrong, I would be happy to learn more about it.
Also when I think "Fast", it is not pure green speed I am thinking about, I am more interested in fast fairways. Plenty of soft bent grass greens run 12 or higher. But very few fairways around the country run within 2 or 3 feet of the green. I mean, most links courses in Scotland do not run much faster than 8 or 9 on the greens, correct?
So when you say fast, do you mean the speed of the fairways? Also, what about the fescues surrounding the fairways, are they playable or are they really OB? If they are really OB, wouldn't that make it more of a target golf course?
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Richard, this has all been answered many times before, in fact in this very thread.
The rough is usually pretty wispy, or at least was all 3 times I've been there. One of those trips I played 5 rounds with the same golf ball. I am not that good.
The greens were very very firm every single time. The fairways ran in just like one would want them to.
Just listen to Spaulding. It all works.
Or even better, get thyself out and play the course. From all I read from you, all I hear about you... I feel 100% confident you would have an absolute blast there. All of these questions are just searching for warts on the Mona Lisa.
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Tom, I am just playing the devil's advocate since the said "mole" will not post here. And I was quite happy with his ratings as he said Chambers Bay is a Doak 5 as well! :)
I am pretty sure I would love the experience at Sand Hills from everything I have read and learned about it. Hopefully, one of these days I will get a chance to confirm it.
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Richard - you can take all the "fasts" I stated in my response above and apply them to fairway speed, ability to use a putter from 30 yds short of the green, etc. I wasn't commenting on stimp speeds for the greens.
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I just scanned through my photos of SH and it looks like 14 holes have uphill or likely uphill approach shots.
I think this may be off by a couple but should be close -
1, 2, 4, 5, 7, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 17, 18
I thought the fairways at SH played firm and fast while the greens were fast and quite firm - but you could spin the ball off some of them if you were not careful on approaches. SH probably had some of the most pure greens I have ever seen and the course is impeccably maintained.
SH is a very strong test for the low handicapper and would be frightening for the higher handicapper from the diamond tees because of the as mentioned forced carries, long uphill approaches, very quick greens, etc. It should certainly be more playable from the forward tees - one of my favorite shots at SH was playing the square tees and driving the green on the 8th which is the coolest green complex on the course. At SH it is vital to pick the appropriate tees and navigate around bunkers, etc. ie) employ a strategy just don't hit and hope. eg) on the 13th - play it as a short par 4.
SH and BN are not really comparable because the courses are so different, but I think it is tough to argue that what Doak did at BN is not more interesting from a routing and diversity of play perspective.
I was at the table when someone mentioned Sand Hills was a Doak 5 - pretty bold statement - but I was even more shocked to hear that Rich thinks Chambers Bay is a Doak 10 and the 9th at BN is an Alps Hole (wasn't it the 9th Rich? :) )
Spaulding - Blue Moon called and said they need the keg you consumed during our match back - they checked the 18th fairway at BN and it was not located in the bunker where you told them it would be. Maybe you finished it on the 10th green after closing us out on the extra hole?
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The premise of SH being a Doak 5 is ludicrous, in every sense of the word. I have been a part of the problem before, but never again. Look, isn't it enough that this one course started an entire movement? Call it a "second golden age, call it the "new American links", call it "cowboy golf", call it whatever. I'll argue that almost all of what we love about golf courses built since 1995 wouldn't have been possible without Sand Hills.
We are talking about the most decorated course of the past 75 years! A modern course that gets universal love from all publications. A course that plays with the big boys, Shinnecock, Cypress, Pine Valley, Merion, The National, and Oakmont in terms of prestige.
Not firm and fast enough? A facade of links? Severe false fronts? Please!
Some of the most well traveled golfers on the planet--who can't agree of what color the sky is--all gush about Sand Hills. Isn't that enough?
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I was at the table when someone mentioned Sand Hills was a Doak 5 - pretty bold statement - but I was even more shocked to hear that Rich thinks Chambers Bay is a Doak 10 and the 9th at BN is an Alps Hole (wasn't it the 9th Rich? :) )
Any debate as to whether #15 is a Dell? ;D
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Hey Rich,
First of all, I am more than willing to stand up as the one who said Sand Hills was a Doak 5 the first evening of The Yucca. At the time, a) I couldn't recite the Doak Scale verbatim and b) it was mostly to wind you up! :D
But upon closer examination of The Doak Scale per this article: http://www.linksmagazine.com/best_of_golf/features/the_doak_scale.aspx I truly do rate it around a 6 or 6.5 as Spaulding mentioned more rationally later on in the thread. (Btw, I heard Blue Moon added an extra shift over the weekend due to record demand for its product on Saturday afternoon).
If we are considering 'the region' to include Ballyneal, I think BN stands head-and-shoulders above SH.
I don't mind being called a moron -- everyone on here has his or her own opinions. I think Rich offered a terrific summary of my overall feelings about the place with a couple of exceptions:
-The course is too soft with too severe false fronts and repellent, rather than inviting, contours to allow a ground game
-It looks like a links course, but it is just a facade.
-Raised tee, drive to a lower fairway, hit approach to a raised green with a false front. Rinse and repeat.
-It is over-rated because it was the first to start the modern renaissance, but it has been surpassed by many since.
The conditioning at Sand Hills was outstanding...the course played plenty fast...I just found the contours far too difficult to encourage me to hit run-up shots when the aerial game worked just as well, or better, thanks to the elevated Bent greens.
I consider myself extremely fortunate to have played Sand Hills but find its consistent position in the Top 10 in the country/world (especially ahead of Ballyneal?) to be curious. There are a handful of world-class holes (4, 8, 11, 16) but in general I found the course repetitive--an opinion that was readily confirmed by the variety @ Ballyneal. I found the course to be an extremely difficult walk, especially in the typical 90+ degree heat, and was downright shocked to see the number of carts in use.
While I would not say that Tetherow has any world-class holes like those I mentioned above, on balance I found the experience there to be comparable, and Tetherow is much closer to my house.
Courses w/similar topography and playing conditions that I've played where the architecture is either more interesting or more fun to play --
Royal Aberdeen
Ballybunion
Lahinch
Cruden Bay
Carne
Ballyneal
Pacific Dunes
Cypress Point (not a true links course, but some architectural similarities as I discussed with Spaulding)
I would also like to point out that my favorite course on the Bandon property (though I have not yet played OM) is Trails, so this criticism is in no way intended to impugn C&C -- just to say that the hype around Sand Hills seems excessive in my own personal assessment.
And I completely agree with JC Jones that 99% of Florida courses are 0's.
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Riggs you LIE!!!! I have never said CB is a Doak 10!!!
I have always said it is a Doak 8 although Matt Schulte got me to agree with him that it is a Doak 7 during a weak moment, that I am not too proud of.
And I said 9th is "Alps inspired" since if you do not hit a correct drive on the left side, your approach shot is blind.
PS. Good to see you on this thread Mihmsy!!!
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Ben,
I enjoy hearing the opinions of people who have a different view than all of the other sheep in the crowd - Especially when they have a perspective to back it up. It led to a pretty fun a(nd) lively discussion.
If someone from a major publication called SH a Doak 5 they would be fired - certain courses are not to be criticized right? But what if it is a 7 or 8 instead of a 9 or a 10?
SH is not a links course (it has bent greens) and several holes have severe false fronts - there is nothing wrong with either of those things. It also has a bunch of uphill approach shots which I think is the biggest weakness of the course - and of course from my perspective walkability is important and everyone I saw playing SH was riding except for me and my playing partner. It is not an easy walk - and much is missed at SH if you ride.
When we got to #15 at BN I had a chuckle in your honor - that was pretty funny.
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Also, Rich, I do still need to play Chambers with its faster and firmer conditions...but the line on the Doak 6 - "It shouldn’t disappoint you." - concerns me. Other than that, I do think Chambers is worth a game if you are in Seattle but not worth a special trip (whereas Sand Hills is much closer to 'worth a special trip' and Ballyneal is definitely 'worth a special trip')
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David Mihm,
Great post. Although if you really want to have some fun, I've heard more than one extremely well traveled (though they will remain unnamed) member of GCA.com say that Kingsley is the same or better than Ballyneal.
I love Kingsley and will hopefully play Sand Hills and Ballyneal someday to make up my own mind.
Given your agreement with me on Florida, I can tell you are a certainly a gentleman, a scholar and a man of fine wines.
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Riggs you LIE!!!! I have never said CB is a Doak 10!!!
I have always said it is a Doak 8 although Matt Schulte got me to agree with him that it is a Doak 7 during a weak moment, that I am not too proud of.
And I said 9th is "Alps inspired" since if you do not hit a correct drive on the left side, your approach shot is blind.
PS. Good to see you on this thread Mihmsy!!!
Just winding you up - those were a couple fun evenings beard pulling at Bally.
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Ben,
I enjoy hearing the opinions of people who have a different view than all of the other sheep in the crowd - Especially when they have a perspective to back it up. It led to a pretty fun a lively discussion.
If someone from a major publication called SH a Doak 5 they would be fired - certain courses are not to be criticized right?
SH is not a links course (it has bent greens) and several holes have severe false fronts - there is nothing wrong with either of those things. It also has a bunch of uphill approach shots which I think is the biggest weakness of the course - and of course from my perspective walkability is important and everyone I saw playing SH was riding except for me and my playing partner. It is not an easy walk - and much is missed at SH if you ride.
When we got to #15 at BN I had a chuckle in your honor - that was pretty funny.
Fair enough. I just think at some point it should be agreed upon here at GCA.com that Sand Hills and Ballyneal are both very, very good, both memberships are lucky to have the staffs they have, and Renaissance and C&C both produced some of their best work on those sites.
The only thing left for me to do is to beard pull it properly. Not a tug, but a real good yank. Say something stupid about how the 7th at Sand Hills inspired the 6th at Pac Dunes, so that Huck and Spaulding may yell at me for doing so.
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The problem with all this throwing around of ratings is no course should be judged based on one or two rds/visits.
Sorry, just not going to give any credence to those viewpoints. :-\
Catch Jessica Biel on a bad day and she might be a 5 too... :P
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Matt, please post the 8th hole which should help trim up a few beards in this peanut gallery.......
Ben, I've promoted the premise that BN and SH are two of the elite courses in the US for some time. I simply find the latter to be superior; consider it a vote for "restraint".
Perhaps uphill approaches are a positive; anyone sum up the quantity at BN over the weekend?
Had a bomb been dropped over the weekend in Holyoke, the anti-SH contingent (sponsored by the zen philosopher "Basho") would have been decimated; facial hair becoming an endangered species.
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The problem with all this throwing around of ratings is no course should be judged based on one or two rds/visits.
Sorry, just not going to give any credence to those viewpoints. :-\
Catch Jessica Biel on a bad day and she might be a 5 too... :P
Golf courses are always unclothed when you see them. I doubt Ms. Biel would rate a 5 in this condition.
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The problem with all this throwing around of ratings is no course should be judged based on one or two rds/visits.
Sorry, just not going to give any credence to those viewpoints. :-\
Catch Jessica Biel on a bad day and she might be a 5 too... :P
I only see this argument brought up when someone DISAGREEs with a person's rating.
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The problem with all this throwing around of ratings is no course should be judged based on one or two rds/visits.
Sorry, just not going to give any credence to those viewpoints. :-\
Catch Jessica Biel on a bad day and she might be a 5 too... :P
Golf courses are always unclothed when you see them. I doubt Ms. Biel would rate a 5 in this condition.
Perhaps....maybe
But like SH, what if she had taken on a lot of "water weight?"
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Spaulding, I think the difference in the elevated greens at BN is that nearly all of them accepted a run-up from at least one side and indeed was the preferred play to some pins -- think 8, 14 and 16 from the left, 18 from the right, etc. Most of the elevated greens at SH (1, 12, 13, 14, 17) either did not allow that or it was an extremely difficult / not the preferred shot.
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The problem with all this throwing around of ratings is no course should be judged based on one or two rds/visits.
Sorry, just not going to give any credence to those viewpoints. :-\
Catch Jessica Biel on a bad day and she might be a 5 too... :P
I only see this argument brought up when someone DISAGREEs with a person's rating.
Not really getting your point here...do you think 1 or 2 visits is enough to fully assess a course?
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JC, isn's that kind of like saying "I found it in the last place I looked"? I mean why would you hear that argument if you agreed with someone's rating? To date, the only person that agrues with me when I agree with them is my wife.
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Is Chip Gaskins going by the name of David Mihm now?
;)
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The problem with all this throwing around of ratings is no course should be judged based on one or two rds/visits.
Sorry, just not going to give any credence to those viewpoints. :-\
Catch Jessica Biel on a bad day and she might be a 5 too... :P
I only see this argument brought up when someone DISAGREEs with a person's rating.
Not really getting your point here...do you think 1 or 2 visits is enough to fully assess a course?
Fully assess? No. But there are some courses where people spend a lifetime playing them and learn something everytime they go out.
If you're talking about a "rating," yes. Now, a course might go up or down 1 point on the scale with repeat play but 1 or 2 plays, to someone who has seen a bunch of courses and has a pretty good idea of things, is sufficient.
Otherwise, toss out almost all the ratings in the Confidential Guide.
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JC, isn's that kind of like saying "I found it in the last place I looked"? I mean why would you hear that argument if you agreed with someone's rating? To date, the only person that agrues with me when I agree with them is my wife.
Well, I'm not sure what your wife looks like but I can tell you this, I have a great rack.
What I'm trying to say is this: if you honestly believe someone can't rate a course in 1 or 2 visits then you would think someone's 10 rating of Sand Hills was equally as dubious as someone's 5 rating. I'm just saying he should be on here saying Matt Bosela's rating of SH is completely bogus the same way he is saying David Mihm's is. Otherwise he is being disingenuous.
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Rob - You raised the question of the walkability of Sand Hills. While I don't think it is the most walker friendly course simply because of the Ups and the downs in the terrain, I didn't find it to be materially different in walkability than Chambers Bay, Ballyneal, or Bandon Trails - all of which mandate walking. Would you agree? I think the large number of carts there is a reflection on the fact that the golfers are given a choice as opposed to a reflection of the course. I found it to be an enjoyable walk. A good workout to do 36 or 36+ but certainly possible for someone used to walking golf courses.
JC - While I am not very well-travelled, I am happy to go on the record as one that puts Kingsley right up there with both Sand Hills and Ballyneal. I mean that purely as a compliment to Kingsley. No knock on either of these two wonderful Midwestern masterpieces. I don't see a material decline in course quality or presentation or most importantly fun factor. These three top my list of modem course where I imagine the national membership would be about as good as it can get.
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Tim, I personally found BN to be a much easier walk than any of the other 3 courses you mention. I would say that SH is a comparable walk to Trails and Chambers.
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JC, I was only kidding, but I agree with you that most ratings should be taken with a grain of salt. If you see the course once, and the wind is blowing, the super had a bad day etc etc etc, but we have had those discussions too.
As far as the ease of walking, I actually think that the course is an easier walk than it is a ride. When you ride, you have to go around so many dunes to get to tees and greens. However when you walk, you can take a far straighter path. That being said, when I went, we played 54 a day, and for a man of my compromised height (especially as compared to my weight) it is easier to ride the last round, or even last two depending on the day! But can't blame that on the course can I?
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David's double eagle or consumption of Blue Moon must be affecting his vision. A 5 can look a lot like a 9 especially late at night after a keg of Blue Moon.
Having played both I have been struggling with which is better architecturally. Both possess a unique personality which to me is a significant factor in determing greatness. SH is more aerial and target oriented and more fair. BN is whimsical with an abundance of variety in how the course sets up and plays. Both have several great holes and no clunkers. Both are fun, but in significantly different ways, at least for me and my game. At Sand Hills the fun is in the challenge. At BN the fun is in what happens once the ball is on the ground.
Can we at least agree they both belong among the gourmet choices?
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Dan, what does variety mean to you when you hit the middle of the fairway and green on every F*#$KING shot!!! :)
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Variety in the spot from which you hit the shot that lands in the center bunker on 14.
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Tim,
I agree with David - Sand Hills, Chambers and Bandon Trails are all about the same walkability rating for me - I have walked 36 at all of those courses but that does not mean it is an easy walk. Ballyneal is a much easier walk IMO - similar to Pac Dunes or Old Mac - I could walk 54 a day there no problem. The walking experience at BN is also much better - obviously - you wake up, eat breakfast, grab your bag and head to the first tee - there is no drive from where you are staying to the course in a cart.
I understand why Spaulding prefers SH to BN - in addition to the fact that he can get a cart with a 12 pack and cooler at one and not the other - I would imagine that a lot of plus handicaps and pros would rate SH higher than BN because it is a sterner test where scoring is possible for well executed shots that can be landed closer to the pin. The strength of BN lies in its variety and consistent strength of holes and its truly "links" character. The putting surfaces at BN are a great equalizer between handicaps because short birdie putts are quite rare.
I had a much easier time scoring at SH than I did at BN when the wind was helping and a much tougher time of scoring at SH than BN when the wind was against.
At BN, the routing tends to change direction much more frequently while SH can play with/against the wind for a fairly long stretch.
Clearly two very different styles of routing, pacing and play.
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Dan,
First of all, as I commented earlier, half of my goal in the first numerical assessment of SH was to see if Rich would pound the table hard enough to break his wrist before his match the next morning.
Sand Hills is certainly unique and I give it some major points for that. And I think when it opened in 1996 I probably would have rated it a Doak 8 or 9 because no one had ever seen ANYTHING like it in this country. As C&C have gotten more and more commissions and Doak has come into his own (and even Kidd's style has evolved) I think SH is less of a visual shock than it was when it opened.
Individually, holes like 1, 2, 14, 17, and 18 would have been pretty spectacular but as we got deep into the back 9, I felt that I had already hit the exact same approach shot (with the exact same result--a ball that trundled 4/5 of the way up the false front and came back 30 yards down the fairway) several times earlier in the round.
In terms of clunkers, 13 was the only one in that category for me...perhaps that is because I don't own a club I can hit 225 yards on a frozen rope with backspin like you can :D.
In terms of gruelingly difficult courses, Oakmont, Aberdeen, and LA North were far more enjoyable for me (and rate in my top 10 courses anywhere).
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I understand why Spaulding prefers SH to BN - in addition to the fact that he can get a cart with a 12 pack and cooler at one and not the other
Clearly the, um, sophisticated(?) boozepurse he was forced to carry knocks BN at least two notches down his scale.
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Wow, I leave for a few hours and a bar fight breaks out.
;D
David, you give well-reasoned opinions here.
I just tend to disagree withn just about every single word you write.
Just consider me on Spaulding's side in the argument you had at Beardapalooza.
I find Sand Hills to be the greatest course on this planet. I have played every one you mention except Oakmont. And note also, I loved Ballyneal, as Pacific Dunes, and all the rest.
So.. there's little reason for us to argue... going point for point is just not worth the bandwith. Anyone who calls 13 at Sand Hills a "clunker"... well there's someone I'm just never going to find any common ground with, considering I put it in the top 5 par 3's I have ever played. Oh yes it is tough... but oh yes it is thrilling.
Oh well. I wish you could see the Sand Hills I did. Because man oh man did we see two different courses.
Cheers!
To Richard - please do see it some day, and try to keep an open mind until then.
As for the walk, heck it's not that bad. But it's also kinda cool to have the choice to take a cart. The course is much better walking.. but man those 2nd rounds of the day, it is much better to ride.
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I understand why Spaulding prefers SH to BN - in addition to the fact that he can get a cart with a 12 pack and cooler at one and not the other
Clearly the, um, sophisticated(?) boozepurse he was forced to carry knocks BN at least two notches down his scale.
I bet it was a Polo Ralph Lauren beer bag.....He is a man of class...
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For those who rate SH above BN - where do some of the other top moderns lie in your pantheon?
Are there other top moderns that play more similarly to SH that you tend to prefer over courses like Pac and Trails at Bandon that play more similarly to BN?
Tom - Especially interested to get your opinion here.
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Rob,
Serious question. Do you prefer Ballyneal to SH because it is walking only? Perhaps you are biased in your own way (like Spaulding is based on beer carrying capabilities in carts at SH)? Or to be more exact, do you think you are influenced by that in terms of judging the two?
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Tom, I think Rich has already made up his mind that SH will be a Doak 10, given how much he and I disagree about his other Doak 10 -- Chambers :D
We will definitely just agree to disagree on this one! Still interested to hear your response on other top moderns.
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Rob,
Serious question. Do you prefer Ballyneal to SH because it is walking only? Perhaps you are biased in your own way (like Spaulding is based on beer carrying capabilities in carts at SH)?
Sean,
Not at all - with the walking element removed I still prefer BN because it is as close to "my ideal" type of course that I have ever played - at least in the US. That is no slight against SH, it is a great course, but maybe not exactly "my kind" of great course - I really enjoy tracks that are fescue based and offer a ton of different options on the ground and in the air. On my last round at Ballyneal I spent about 15 minutes trying different shots around some of the greens since there was no one behind us - the thought never crossed my mind at Sand Hills. I was like a kid in a candy store - it was awesome.
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This fescue thing puzzles me. I have played Ballyneal and all of the Bandon courses. But places like Prairie Dunes play just as firm and fast with non fescue, and the chipping areas there give you more options there around the greens as you can putt it or flop it. PD is more like SH in that there are false fronts and uphill approaches that make it less of a bounce it in course, but on the holes you can bounce it in, it plays just like the fescue courses. What am I missing?
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Rob: if you can sit at any of these greens and not want to try shots, then I don't know what you're looking for... the fact the thought never occurred to you, well I just don't know what to make of that: 2, 3, 6, 8, 11, 14 - just off the top of my head. I could find creative things to do on these particularly, but all the rest as well. Speed and tilt along with contour tend to allow for such things.
And if you want options, well... wow I see more of them, for all shots, at Sand Hills then any other course I have ever played. That's a large reason why I love it so much.
Ballyneal has these things as well. I just find the intensity ratched up a lot more at Sand Hills, as well as the options, for exactly the reasons Sean states, and I described earlier.
Strange how reasonable people see this so very differently. Oh well.
In any case...
Guys, I don't tend to separate moderns and classics - I think that's a cop out. I made a list of the top 25 courses I have ever played... made a year or so ago. Can't find it now. But as I recall, Pacifi Dunes was in the top 10. I haven't played Rock Creek nor Old MacDonlad , but I bet it they did they'd make top 25. Ballyneal was an honorable mention, as would be Cleark Creek. I've been lucky to poay a lot of great golf courses.. so the classics were pretty strong. If I were to do it modern only, well.. all of those are in teh pantheon. They aqre all very very great. I just fin d Sand Hils to be the best not only of the moderns, but also of all courses.
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Sean,
I am talking about options into the greens and I guess I tend to equate them with fescue (but it is possible with other grasses).
The greens at Ballyneal are layered with big movement contrasted with subtlety that I have never encountered elsewhere - it took me about 4 rounds to figure out all of the different ways to play into the greens. There were often two to four ways to attack a pin from within 50 yards of the green.
On most courses there is one way to "properly" attack the pin - two at most - for any given green.
In my experience - fescue allows for greater consistency between fairway and green height and speed and allow for a more interesting game. If you look at photos of SH and BN it is much more obvious at SH where the fairways end and the greens begin.
At BN, Pac Dunes, Old Mac, BT, etc. the greens and fairways blend as one and it is often hard to tell if you are on or off when it comes to marking your ball.
I have never played Prairie Dunes so cannot compare. The greens at SH were PURE and like lightning - a country club's dream.
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Rob: if you can sit at any of these greens and not want to try shots, then I don't know what you're looking for... the fact the thought never occurred to you, well I just don't know what to make of that: 2, 3, 6, 8, 11, 14 - just off the top of my head. I could find creative things to do on these particularly, but all the rest as well. Speed and tilt along with contour tend to allow for such things.
Tom,
I found that the direct route at SH was often the best - on several holes I tried to hit running or putting approaches but was beaten away by large contours, often 25 yards or more off the green. The margin for error on creative shots tended to be much tighter which made me resort to the aerial game a lot more often. I am not suggesting that creative shotmaking is not out there - but I did not think there were as many of them and they were less diverse than those at BN where three different approach angles/shots could lead to the same "tap in" outcome.
If memory serves 8 and 14 were two holes that I hit some pretty cool shots around the green - if I played the course more often then I might find more.
At SH I would tend to putt an eight footer at the hole in a normal fashion - at BN I would turn left and send it 15 feet up a hill and then back down at the hole where it had a great chance of going in. For me, that's fun, for some people that is stupid. To each his own.
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Rob:
Gotcha. So you prefer trick shots to actually playing the game with intent to get the ball in the hole; and you prefer to have no penalty for poorly struck shots. ;)
My friend, if you want to hit weird backwards putts, you can do that at Sand Hills also - you're just gonna need to get a crazy pin position, same as Ballyneal. But yes, Ballyneal being generally slower, there is indeed less penalty for failure.
I just tend to like the higher intensity at Sand Hills, that's all. I find it thrilling that a poor shot can make you end up 25 yards off line. My response to it was to bear down.. figure out the best way... and do it, if I could. Sometimes that was aerial, sometimes not. But every time it was thrilling.
And it was just a little bit more so than at Ballyneal, where there was less penalty for failure.
So yep, to each his own.
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Wow - a busy day at work followed by some time with my wife and son and I miss all the fireworks!
I'm elated with the response to the thread and the ensuing discussion. Working on the 8th and 9th holes right now.
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Matt, this course has always been a lightning rod, for whatever reason... this is just the latest in MANY threads discussing its virtues or lack thereof, with most of them coming since Ballyneal came to being. The courses are just so similar in purpose and general look (while being very different when one gets beyond that), it's just very normal to compare and contrast.
But man let's do move on to 8 and 9... nothing new has been covered today, other than this course being called a Doak 5 for the first time.
;D
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Tom, the fact that the course has been so hotly debated especially since the advent of BN is interesting. I know they are in the same (very) general location, but we don't get as many debates in regard to Shinnecock vs. National on this site do we? Is it just that this site has members of both SH and BN on it? Is it because of the respective designers?
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Keith - over the long haul there has been plenty of debate about Shinnecock v. National, Pebble Beach v. Cypress, pretty much every pair of geographically close or otherwise similar courses you can think of! This forum has covered it all.
With regard to Ballyneal and Sand Hills, I think it's just because thanks to the very gracious members of each course who tend to post here, many GCAers have indeed played one or the other or both. Thus many have personal experience, and that of course makes the conversations much easier.
Of course, the fact one is C&C and the other Doak doesn't hurt things in this forum which is a bastion of architect-idolization.
;D
TH
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Dan, what does variety mean to you when you hit the middle of the fairway and green on every F*#$KING shot!!! :)
Do I sense someone is still a little sore after a great match at the Yucca? ;D
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Rob:
Gotcha. So you prefer trick shots to actually playing the game with intent to get the ball in the hole; and you prefer to have no penalty for poorly struck shots. ;)
Tom - Yes, sometimes. Not usually when playing in a match - although pulling something off that is "unique" in competition is a ton of fun. I play a unique game of golf and really enjoy doing so.
My friend, if you want to hit weird backwards putts, you can do that at Sand Hills also - you're just gonna need to get a crazy pin position, same as Ballyneal. But yes, Ballyneal being generally slower, there is indeed less penalty for failure.
There are also more options to do so at BN based on my experience at both courses. The number of elevated approaches at SH make anything but an aerial attack quite challenging on more holes than I would prefer. This does not diminish the quality of SH at all - it is a stern but fair test of shotmaking. It just became repetitive.
I just tend to like the higher intensity at Sand Hills, that's all. I find it thrilling that a poor shot can make you end up 25 yards off line. My response to it was to bear down.. figure out the best way... and do it, if I could. Sometimes that was aerial, sometimes not. But every time it was thrilling.
I found myself grinding more at SH on the final holes because they were into the wind and scoring really well on the holes with a tailwind (a driver, 9 iron, and short putt for eagle was something that doesn't happen everyday - neither is three birdies in one round). I do like the penal element of a missed shot at Sand Hills - you can get the same thing at BN if you come up short on some of the greens. SH is more intense, nothing wrong with that at all. It is a really fun challenge when you are on your game - just not as fun as BN for me.
And it was just a little bit more so than at Ballyneal, where there was less penalty for failure.
So yep, to each his own.
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8th Hole - 367 Yards Par 4
The wonderful short two-shot 8th is played back toward the clubhouse and in the opposite direction to the previous hole. Obviously, the ever-changing wind patterns at Sand Hills allow this to be a hole that can be driven under the right circumstances if you're playing from the appropriate tee deck, as it's only 293 yards from the 'Square' tees and 236 yards from the 'Circle' tees.
Again, there is plenty of width off this tee and the smart and safe play is to aim well left of the cross bunkers and get the turbo kick off the kicker slopes down the left side of the fairway. This will open up shots played to a left or back pin but obviously will be problematic for a pin cut on the right side, as it brings that little pot bunker that sits in the front middle of the horseshoe-shaped green into play.
And therein lies the absolute brilliance of this hole. The green design here in its amphitheater setting is particularly inspired, with the ability to utilize the ground game to roll the ball onto the putting surface and use the slopes to move the ball either from left to right or from right to left, depending on the side of the green you want to work with. Similar to the bunker on the 6th hole at Riviera, you can work your ball around it here on the ground, even from the fairway short of the green. The aerial game can also work here but be careful, as the severe back to front and right to left pitch of the putting surface can result in many balls spinning back up to 40 feet and into that deadly bunker.
Rob Rigg mentioned that he could spend 20 minutes on many of the greens at Ballyneal, trying many different types of shots and reasoned that he didn't get inspired to do the same at Sand Hills. I'd argue that the second and eighth greens at Sand Hills come close to matching up to any green that I've played for fun factor, including the awesome 7th at Ballyneal and I spent plenty of time at all three during my trip, with a smile never leaving my face the whole time.
The 7th and 8th are both world-class short fours but if I had the time to only play one over and over again at the club, I'd pick this hole purely because of the great fun that can be had around the green.
Tee Shot at Sunset
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUY8KIia_TI/AAAAAAAADrs/MJGCTzfMOhk/s1600/8A.jpg)
Tee Shot Mid-Day
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUY8J5lWSZI/AAAAAAAADrk/YQhmnVhTn9s/s1600/8o.jpg)
Approach from Right Fairway Bunker
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUY8JkefZDI/AAAAAAAADrc/aRY8TBNg4po/s1600/8D.jpg)
Approach from Middle of Fairway at Sunset
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUY8JRd0C2I/AAAAAAAADrU/lqBAJM8StLU/s1600/8C.jpg)
Harris Nepon hitting approach in mid-afternoon
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUY8CG9vYAI/AAAAAAAADrM/h8a2tbarrzg/s1600/8r.jpg)
Approach from Left Side of Fairway
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUY8BtPLRMI/AAAAAAAADrE/FnlV3-g4GF0/s1600/8E.jpg)
Long View from Behind Green Looking Back down Fairway
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUY8BNVxvRI/AAAAAAAADq8/IbZgZvWnvaA/s1600/8s.jpg)
Closeup View from Behind Green Looking Back down Fairway at Sunset
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUY8AnRlwqI/AAAAAAAADq0/TTWe0prfadg/s1600/8G.jpg)
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FWIW, the 8th was my favorite hole at Sand Hills. Truly an awesome green complex and great fairway contours.
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Sean,
I am talking about options into the greens and I guess I tend to equate them with fescue (but it is possible with other grasses).
The greens at Ballyneal are layered with big movement contrasted with subtlety that I have never encountered elsewhere - it took me about 4 rounds to figure out all of the different ways to play into the greens. There were often two to four ways to attack a pin from within 50 yards of the green.
On most courses there is one way to "properly" attack the pin - two at most - for any given green.
In my experience - fescue allows for greater consistency between fairway and green height and speed and allow for a more interesting game. If you look at photos of SH and BN it is much more obvious at SH where the fairways end and the greens begin.
At BN, Pac Dunes, Old Mac, BT, etc. the greens and fairways blend as one and it is often hard to tell if you are on or off when it comes to marking your ball.
I have never played Prairie Dunes so cannot compare. The greens at SH were PURE and like lightning - a country club's dream.
I understand. Fescue is great, as it does promote firm and fast. But it is unidimensional around the greens for most. Putting or bump in run are the only realistic options.
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I loved the 8th at Sand Hills - this hole is awesome.
We had a back pin so there were not a ton of shots to play in there - I messed around with a couple. The first time I tried to run my shot up the left side - not successfully the first ball but I ran it on the second time just not too close. I drove the green from the Square tees the second round which was a blast!
The front pin on either side is fantastic - bringing a ton of shot options into play and as you can see from the photos the cant of the green allows you to play around the horseshoe.
I believe the fronting bunker is the only "man made" one on the course?
Matt - I was generalizing and I should have been more literal - There are a couple of fun greens at SH depending on pin position - 3 and 8 for sure, maybe 2 and a couple others Bob mentioned - at BN there are about 14 of them. I could spend at least an hour on the 7th Green at BN and 45 minutes on the 8th, then 30 minutes on the 9th and 10th, etc. etc. That is no more a knock on SH than 99.9% of the other courses in the country where you just can't do that (O yeah, this is an SH thread - pls continue! :) )
Sean - Absolutely correct - unless you can really nip a lob wedge around the greens, then bringing anything in from the air is tough off of fescue. A hockey background is helpful in executing those shots, fortunately. A lot of people do not like bump and run and refuse to give up use of their lob wedge no matter what the turf tells them. It's a different game.
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At BN, the routing tends to change direction much more frequently while SH can play with/against the wind for a fairly long stretch.
Rob -
Are you a member at Ballyneal?
Are you a member at any other private club?
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Mike -
No.
Yes.
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A few comments on walkability.
The reason this course is not more walkable is the pathways from the tees to the fairways and greens to tees are very narrow because so many of the golfers play 36+ per day and opt for carts. You can not walk a few accross like you can at BN. This may as much as anything be a reflection of the availability of caddies in a town so small, a membership that maybe getting older after 15 years of operation and so many members hailing from areas without caddies. The walkways from the greens to tees at BN are generous and also play as chipping areas often.
Yes the front nine has some elevation changes but hardly anything more challenging than at Pacific Dunes or Bandon Dunes or Lahinch. A few of the more difficult walks at the top of my mind that are most worth it are Colorado Golf Club, Carne, Pacific Trails, Pine Valley, Kirtland.
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Thanks for the great thread and pictures.
I must say I find it troubling that some people have to try and portray Sand Hills Golf Club as overrated. I have followed this course pretty closely since before it was built and I've only known a couple of guys that took that position. In my opinion, their negative assessments of SH had less to do with the golf and more to do with other, related issues.
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OK, I was going to start a new thread about this, but I will just do it on this one.
An error in judgement.
You should have started another thread.
Threads like this one are more of a celebration, a way for the golfer to extend and share his euphoric state after, as Maslow stated, one of life's peak experiences.
Thankfully, I didn't note anyone passing water on his previous thread of black and whites.
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Rob:
It's all good man as you do seem to appreciate Sand Hills #8, a truly great golf hole. So let's take this in a continued friendly spirit.
I guess the only thing I continue to find hard to understand about your take is this:
There are also more options to do so at BN based on my experience at both courses. The number of elevated approaches at SH make anything but an aerial attack quite challenging on more holes than I would prefer. This does not diminish the quality of SH at all - it is a stern but fair test of shotmaking. It just became repetitive.
You say this, yet you agree with Sean that the nature of fescue at Ballyneal allows for one and only one type of shot... do you not find that contradictory? Or is Ballyneal repetitive also? Or is it that only repetitive aerial shots bother you?
I continue to disagree also about the overabundance of aerial attack shots "required" at Sand Hills... I find one hole only where it's required (17) and even on that, a viable play for the brave is a bounce off the right hill. There are plenty of raised greens at Ballyneal also... man I just don't get this critique, never have.
Raised greens at Sand Hills:
1 - but one can, and I have, run it up the hill, from long and short.
4 - ditto
7 -ditto - in fact I don't' have the skill to nip a wedge onto that plateua
11 - same as 1 and 4
13 - same
17 - described above.
None of these require the aerial attack.
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@Gene I do not think I am 'urinating' on anything & @Steve, My impression of the goal of this forum is 'to promote frank commentary on golf course architecture' as the GCA homepage says. I think that's what this thread is all about. Prompted by Rich :) I have tried to lay out my viewpoint on why I do not think Sand Hills is a Top 10 golf course as it is rated by most publications. That does not mean I think it is a bad golf course. And my experience at the club was terrific -- the staff and its unique setting make it a true destination.
I was also explicit in saying that when it opened, it may very well have been a Top 10 course if only for the revolution in architecture it was at the very heart of initiating.
Plenty of people whose opinions I greatly respect (including Rich, Dan, and Jon) rate Sand Hills as one of their all-time favorites. We obviously differ on this course but in my opinion the discussion is part of the fun that the playing fields for golf allow for, which other sports do not.
@Mike_T, I think SH's walk is considerably more challenging than Lahinch, though agree that Carne's back nine requires some serious energy. From a walking standpoint, there is the inspirational breather at Carne offered by the 13th and 14th holes which always gives me a second wind, though!
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No respect for my opinions, David?
;D
As for Sand Hills' walk, I'd put it about the same as Cruden Bay. Some hillls but nothing that can't be managed. But I also consider the allowance for carts to be a plus.
TH
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Gene, I don't think anyone is urinating on anything.
If the site was not about having different opinions on variety of courses, this wouldn't be much of a site. Nobody is trashing Sand Hills. I am pretty sure everyone who posted here today enjoy the course immensely and I am positive they would welcome additional opportunities to play the course to see if their first instinct was correct.
I should have created a separate thread, but I think this was one of the most interesting discussion we've had lately. I don't think anyone is a loser for that.
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David:
Could your opinion in any way possibly be wrong?
Or could it be self serving?
Or maybe for the 'good of the cause' along with the rest of the 'army' which has enlisted on this website?
Is Shinnecock Hills a faux links?
Is it any less of a golf course based on your definition?
A few raised and built up greens there, too.
What's Pine Valley?
Is that not your ideal type of golf course either?
Sucks trying to bump it up on 2,3,5,7,8,10,11,13,17 and 18.
Ever rain in your part of the country?
Well, it rains in the Sand Hills, too.
I just returned and there wasn't a ball mark to be found, fairways were screaming.
Your list of prefered golf courses centers more on those outside the USA which is fine.
However, your centric view doesn't mean those courses deemed great by the large majority of well travelled, intelligent and/or passionate golfers are not... simply because you have declared such.
And I will reiterate: this could all have courteously been done on a seperate thread while referring back to the pictures.
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Gene, if people were really offended, a mod can just move all the posts from today to another thread. I don't think anyone would mind.
Personally, I like some interesting comments to go with the pictures.
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Rob:
It's all good man as you do seem to appreciate Sand Hills #8, a truly great golf hole. So let's take this in a continued friendly spirit.
I guess the only thing I continue to find hard to understand about your take is this:
There are also more options to do so at BN based on my experience at both courses. The number of elevated approaches at SH make anything but an aerial attack quite challenging on more holes than I would prefer. This does not diminish the quality of SH at all - it is a stern but fair test of shotmaking. It just became repetitive.
You say this, yet you agree with Sean that the nature of fescue at Ballyneal allows for one and only one type of shot... do you not find that contradictory? Or is Ballyneal repetitive also? Or is it that only repetitive aerial shots bother you?
Tom - You conveniently misread what I wrote - lobbing a shot in off a tight lie is challenging for most golfers - a putt, bump and run or pitch is available off tight lies while a lob or pitch is often the only recourse off soft lies. So fescue has three clear options versus two clear options on most American playing surfaces which are usually bent or bermuda with fairways that tend to play much softer than greens. Fescue provides more options, but the lob shot is the preferred one for most people who play golf in this country due to normal playing conditions. All options are available at Sand Hills but the preferred seemed to be the aerial on the approach and bump and runs around the greens needed to be executed with more skill than on most links courses due to faster green speeds and fall offs.
I continue to disagree also about the overabundance of aerial attack shots "required" at Sand Hills... I find one hole only where it's required (17) and even on that, a viable play for the brave is a bounce off the right hill. There are plenty of raised greens at Ballyneal also... man I just don't get this critique, never have.
Tom- It would be very entertaining to see you run an approach shot up from the back tee on the 13th or 17th, especially with heavy wind - or even the 1st if you are going for the green in two or hitting your third from the bottom of the hill. A running shot up to a back pin on the 2nd would also be very impressive as would a running shot from 200 yards up onto the 4th green. From around the greens, at SH, the bump and run is absolutely an option, as I clearly mentioned, but it is more exacting than on most links courses that I have played. An aerial approach and the ability to bump and run around greens are two different aspects of playing a course - obviously.
Raised greens at Sand Hills:
1 - but one can, and I have, run it up the hill, from long and short.
4 - ditto
7 -ditto - in fact I don't' have the skill to nip a wedge onto that plateua
11 - same as 1 and 4
13 - same
17 - described above.
None of these require the aerial attack.
Gene - Indeed - this topic should have been brought up on another thread. Way to go Rich - jeez. When I played SH the fairways were fast and the greens were pure despite recent heavy precipitation. The course is immaculate and drained exceptionally. I didn't recall anyone stating it was slow and soggy on this thread or that the course was in anything but perfect condition any time it was played.
Steve - Sand Hills is the number one modern golf course per all the magazines - surely it is a great course to discuss, compare and contrast to others for it is the benchmark by which all other modern courses are judged. Golf courses are works of art - surely opinions will differ?
Mike B - My home course gets trashed all the time despite its ranking - let me know if you want to tee it there - I would be interested in hearing your honest opinion.
Apologies Matt - Enough of the banter - let the celebration continue - Sand Hills is a great course and it is a wonderful golfing experience.
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Steve - Sand Hills is the number one modern golf course per all the magazines - surely it is a great course to discuss, compare and contrast to others for it is the benchmark by which all other modern courses are judged. Golf courses are works of art - surely opinions will differ?
Of course opinions will differ, but I question the motives of such minority opinion. Could it be:
1. A cast of bait on an Internet forum,
2. A play for attention,
3. Sour grapes,
4. A desire to promote another course.
Of course it is possible that some people really believe Sand Hills is overrated. But, my personal experience with people that feel Sand Hills is overrated is that they had some of number 3 above.
Although I enjoy Heitz Cellars MV Cabernet immensely. It's not the best wine I have ever tasted. That doesn't mean I would come on an Internet forum and equate it to table wine from E&J Gallo.
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OK, I was going to start a new thread about this, but I will just do it on this one.
An error in judgement.
You should have started another thread.
Threads like this one are more of a celebration, a way for the golfer to extend and share his euphoric state after, as Maslow stated, one of life's peak experiences.
Thankfully, I didn't note anyone urinating on his previous thread of black and whites.
Gene:
Respectfully, these photo threads -- maybe the single greatest asset of this site (there are now literally hundreds of GCA photo threads archived here, of courses both with the stature of SHills and those of merit that don't make many "top" lists) -- are precisely the place for the kind of vigorous debate I believe Ran and others envisioned for this site. Greatness, in all manner of things, including golf courses, stands up to such vigorous and probing debate.
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Gents,
Please help me understand all the comments relating to Sand Hills being a difficult walk. I just don't get that at all.
Also, most everyone on this site would agree that the more options one has on a particular shot, the better. In my couple of plays, Sand Hills allows for both the aerial game on a few holes, as well as the ground game. Isn't that a good thing?
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Rob Rigg:
We're close enough. I believe we each have great love for both courses.
What we disagree on is I see no repetitiveness at either course, and particularly not at Sand Hills. I do not see the "required" or even "preferred" aerial shots that you do... I have indeed ran shots up to each of 1, 2, 4 and 13 .. in downwind situations. I have seen many others do it too, as downwind, that's the smartest play given landing on the green means bounding over... Now 17, of course that's a stretch, but reports are that members play it that way at times... for me, heck I also like the variety of one hole where it's do or die must play a fly, especially since it's 150 max. 17 is one fantastic golf hole and if one downgrades it because one can't run it in.. I'd say one is too attached to the ground game. ;)
I also don't see a huge difference between the fescue at Ballyneal and the bent at Sand Hills... each has been very firm and very fast at each place, each time I have been there. In the end grass is grass and how it plays is how it plays.
I also PREFER the more exacting nature at Sand Hills over the "it's gonna end up OK pretty much no matter what" nature of so many shots at Ballyneal. As I say, the intensity is ratcheted up at Sand Hills, and to me that remains a good thing.
So, to each his own. Walking is paramount for you, and Ballyneal being walking only, well it's always going to have a strong place in your heart, no? Me, I prefer options over being told what to do, especially for 2nd and 3rd rounds on hot days.
So, we each have our inherent built in preferences. I can live with that.
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The thing about SH is much of your initial enjoyment can be determined by who you are lucky enough to have as your host. I understand all the hullabaloo about the bunker on number 4 but it's when you get to 7 and 8 that your host can really show you what the fun is all about. Try a putt from the back to the front of the green on #7 or try getting to a left hole location on number 8 from the right side of the fairway and as well as the opposite positions - you could put down a dozen balls and just have a great time trying to figure out your options. That's part of what SH woke the world up to - fun and challenges in golf and BN followed this philosophy as well.
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OK, I was going to start a new thread about this, but I will just do it on this one.
An error in judgement.
You should have started another thread.
Threads like this one are more of a celebration, a way for the golfer to extend and share his euphoric state after, as Maslow stated, one of life's peak experiences.
Thankfully, I didn't note anyone urinating on his previous thread of black and whites.
Gene:
Respectfully, these photo threads -- maybe the single greatest asset of this site (there are now literally hundreds of GCA photo threads archived here, of courses both with the stature of SHills and those of merit that don't make many "top" lists) -- are precisely the place for the kind of vigorous debate I believe Ran and others envisioned for this site. Greatness, in all manner of things, including golf courses, stands up to such vigorous and probing debate.
Phil:
Then why did Ran NOT post his response to this thread here, but rather on the substitute xyz thread?
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What I've always loved about GCA.com, even before I was a member, was/is the picture threads and the great discussion that follows. I get to play both SH and BN in the next two months and pictures that encompass debate such as this will make both that much more enjoyable from a playability and architecture standpoint. So, right or wrong, to me at least, it has great value. But it is hard to imagine, given it's rankings, it being a Doak 5. Maybe David is from Alaska? ;D
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What I've always loved in the pictures of the 8th hole is the bunker right at the front of the green. It appears small in comparison to the green but I bet it plays with the golfer's mind.
How big is the bunker relative to the rest of the green?
My favorite C&C hole (mainly because I've only seen one of their courses) is the 10th at Sugarloaf with a small little bunker in the middle of the fairway. It doesn't take up much room but it certainly plays with the golfer's mind on the tee. I see this bunker on 8 having a similar effect.
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My favorite C&C hole (mainly because I've only seen one of their courses) is the 10th at Sugarloaf with a small little bunker in the middle of the fairway. It doesn't take up much room but it certainly plays with the golfer's mind on the tee.
JC,
That type of bunker or center-line bunkers, are more 'aiming' bunkers for me, even the nest of them on the opener at Kingsley. I aim at them and the ball travels left or right of target on demand! ;D
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What I've always loved in the pictures of the 8th hole is the bunker right at the front of the green. It appears small in comparison to the green but I bet it plays with the golfer's mind.
Oh my yes it plays with one's mind, starting at the tee.. it's like the Road Hole in that effect. You know you do not want to be in that bunker pretty much no matter what... so you plan accordingly.
What's really fun is there's a bold way and a timid way... perhaps even more so than the Road Hole itself. By that I mean, the next time you see someone try to pitch over the Road bunker will be the first time. On #8 SH, greater golfers than I have nipped a wedge tight to a pin not far beyond it... I have seen it done. Now I sure as hell can't do that myself - I take the timid way around, and settle for a 10 foot curling putt if I do it right. But fortune favors the brave.. if you want to get it inside 10 feet, nip it you must.
This hole also is a prime example of “Shinnecock from tips, NGLA from middles” that I like to spout about – at least for me. From the tips, I have to bear down on the tee shot, to make the carry and protect against going into the right rough… then the 2nd is a 7iron or something, darn tough to that smallish green. From the middles, oh man it’s SOOOO tempting to fire one up the left side, pray for the rightish bounce, get one on the green… I have done it… but the penalty for failure is steep, in left rough or in the bunker… it’s just too fun NOT to try… gosh I love that shot. Wonderful golf hole. BTW, it has a killer green also… so we are now 0/8 in terms of lack of ho-hum greens, if Kenny is still following this.
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Would someone be willing to label the holes on the aerial? Thanks!
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/SHGC.jpg?t=1279117927)
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OK, I was going to start a new thread about this, but I will just do it on this one.
An error in judgement.
You should have started another thread.
Threads like this one are more of a celebration, a way for the golfer to extend and share his euphoric state after, as Maslow stated, one of life's peak experiences.
Thankfully, I didn't note anyone urinating on his previous thread of black and whites.
Gene:
Respectfully, these photo threads -- maybe the single greatest asset of this site (there are now literally hundreds of GCA photo threads archived here, of courses both with the stature of SHills and those of merit that don't make many "top" lists) -- are precisely the place for the kind of vigorous debate I believe Ran and others envisioned for this site. Greatness, in all manner of things, including golf courses, stands up to such vigorous and probing debate.
Phil:
Then why did Ran NOT post his response to this thread here, but rather on the substitute xyz thread?
Gene:
I'm not sure of Ran's motivations about when and where he posts; you'd have to ask him.
I do know this: I've learned something about Sand Hills on this thread, in part because of the polite and thoughtful replies by posters to my questions. It's the reason I, and I'm guessing many others, keep coming back to this site -- to learn something. Photo threads that are a mere "celebration" of a course, without discussion of its merits, are merely sycophantic Greek choruses.
I'd also note, in researching another noteworthy course well-known and admired here, that I came across the following comments today on a golf site devoted to discussing the merits of courses and their architecture:
"The National (Golf Links) is perhaps golfdom's most over-rated course. The first two holes are atrocities, and the rest of the course is beautiful and scenic, but hardly top 100 material."
"Tom Fazio's Quarry course at Black Diamond Ranch in FL is a better track than National..."
I don't spend much time on that website. I find the commentary on GCA much more informative.
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As one who loves Sand Hills more than any other course, perhaps to an irrational level, well... I too tire of the bashing. I will say this - in this thread, it has been pretty darn well-reasoned and cordial, as least as opposed to previous bashfests which have not gone that way. So given this historical context, well... it would have been nice to just have a love-fest for once, as the black and white thread about Ballyneal has gone. Yes you without the historical context learn a lot from these discussions, I can dig that, so us veterans perhaps ought to keep our feelings to ourselves... but well... please do try to understand the historical context, and bear with us.
Now about labelling the holes... I have less talent for that than I do nipping 50 yard lob wedges off tight lies.. just figure that #1 is kinda of center right, going north... and the front nine goes pretty much clockwise on the right side thereafter... back nine is left side also going clockwise more or less.
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Tom,
Thanks for the perspective. I can say that in my 3-4 years watching and posting on this site I've never seen anyone criticize Sand Hills. Man, those old days must have been rowdy around here. ;D
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Eric,
Here you are - I actually had already labelled this photo about a month before I played SH so I could learn about the routing before I played.
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUY9VhoJYzI/AAAAAAAADr0/HsuLJID8gRk/s1600/SandHillsOHGoogleEarthAugust2009.jpg)
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Tom,
Thanks for the perspective. I can say that in my 3-4 years watching and posting on this site I've never seen anyone criticize Sand Hills. Man, those old days must have been rowdy around here. ;D
Hmmmmm
I've sure seen it a lot, and in fact all of it has occurred in the last 3-4 years. But perhaps I just look for it more.
A lot of it may have occurred off-line, also. There are other worlds besides this forum.
In any case, it's just MY perspective and I certainly could be wrong. I also tend to know most the principals, so that helps the perspective also.
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Tom,
Thanks for the perspective. I can say that in my 3-4 years watching and posting on this site I've never seen anyone criticize Sand Hills. Man, those old days must have been rowdy around here. ;D
Hmmmmm
I've sure seen it a lot, and in fact all of it has occurred in the last 3-4 years. But perhaps I just look for it more.
A lot of it may have occurred off-line, also. There are other worlds besides this forum.
In any case, it's just MY perspective and I certainly could be wrong. I also tend to know most the principals, so that helps the perspective also.
I am now intrigued. I'm going to search to find some of these threads.
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LOL, thanks, Matt. I just finished labeling the #'s on my aerial pic, following Huck's advice and damn it if I didn't get it right! Gosh, it's ugly though compared to yours. Using photobucket's draw feature, mine looked like my 4 year old drew the #'s with a red crayola.
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JC:
As I say, this thread has been the most cordial of these types. There has been some fine discussion. Some fine architectural contentions have been made, if not valid points... but it's all been OK by me so far.
My recollection has been that in the past it has not quite gone this way. But even that may also be wrong. Maybe it's just the quantity. But maybe also most if not all of it has occurred offline.
I don't know. I just do have this perspective. And I also know the man who used the "urination" comment, and he is an absolute prince of the game, perhaps the greatest not named Huntley. Given this perspective also, well... he gets as much leeway as he wants in my book.
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JC:
As I say, this thread has been the most cordial of these types. There has been some fine discussion. Some fine architectural contentions have been made, if not valid points... but it's all been OK by me so far.
My recollection has been that in the past it has not quite gone this way. But even that may also be wrong. Maybe it's just the quantity. But maybe also most if not all of it has occurred offline.
I don't know. I just do have this perspective. And I also know the man who used the "urination" comment, and he is an absolute prince of the game, perhaps the greatest not named Huntley. Given this perspective also, well... he gets as much leeway as he wants in my book.
Tom,
Now, on to the architecture discussion.
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No problem JC... man take a look at #8, if you haven't already.
GREAT golf hole.
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9th Hole - 402 Yards Par 4
As Ran has mentioned in his own writeup of SH, the 9th doesn't get much press compared to the other holes on the course but it is a strong hole in its own right.
The tee shot is played uphill and the ideal line is to go up the blind right hand side to not only take the more direct line at the green but also to take advantage of the kicker slopes beyond the hillside. There is a centerline bunker slightly left of center that must be avoided and one of the defining features of the hole is the rather large spine that runs pretty much from the approach area all the way to the putting surface. Shots that go left will fall well below the grade of the putting surface and leave a more difficult approach.
Even from the middle of the fairway, you have to trust your yardage, with some of the natural undulations of the rippling fairway causing some blindness to front pin positions.
The green is very wide and falls off severely on the left side. While the green contouring is among the more subtle on the course, don't be fooled - even putts from the middle of the green hit toward the right side are treacherously fast and I'm sure many have seen a bold effort roll off the green into the collection area.
There may not be a more beautiful site than sitting on Ben's Porch at sunset and looking at how gorgeous the fairway undulations are on the 9th hole at Sand Hills.
Tee Shot
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUY-Biq-Y9I/AAAAAAAADs0/N7WxHKlKElI/s1600/9A.jpg)
Approach from Middle of Fairway
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUY-BEEeRII/AAAAAAAADss/DNCJokz--DY/s1600/9C.jpg)
Approach from Left Side of Fairway, showing how much lower when you fall down the spine
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUY-AUfnbLI/AAAAAAAADsk/5q8R-T0ZjIg/s1600/9D.jpg)
View of the fairway undulations at sunset from Ben's Porch
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUY-AHlzhsI/AAAAAAAADsc/WiOU_RivMTs/s1600/9H.jpg)
View from Behind Green, looking back up Fairway
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUY90jCBWdI/AAAAAAAADsU/fm1JAJ3ZlKI/s1600/9E.jpg)
View from Ben's Porch of 9th Green at Sunset
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUY90ScMQqI/AAAAAAAADsM/rgSHPgb_vMA/s1600/9F.jpg)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUY90FVoigI/AAAAAAAADsE/zlW1lwCaz2c/s1600/9G.jpg)
Glorious Sand Hills at Sunset
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUY9z9h4C-I/AAAAAAAADr8/Y6mGEyQn3_I/s1600/9I.jpg)
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OK, that's one cool-looking golf hole. That and #8 are convincing me a bit more re. the debate raging in my mind about this place.
For those who have played it, is #9 perhaps C&C's homage to the hog's back concept of a par 4?
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That's way too beardpulling of a question for me to handle, Phil.
9 is a very very cool golf hole. It is a tough shot from that back tee... heck even getting it in the saddle is a fine effort. But for longer hitters, and for me from the middle tee, it becomes vexing, again... how much hill do you bite off? What club do you take it you safely play left? Standard risk-reward stuff, but in an incredible setting... those pics don't shot how much very uphill the tee shot is.
Then the fairway, and the green... well the pics say enough there. St. Andrews has nothing on this hole in terms of humps and hummocks and swales.
I'd make a comment about ho-hum greens, but Kenny appears to have left the building. ;D
Side note: I do have particular love for this hole as I stiffed a 9iron there to FINALLY win a match against my nemesis Miller, all played out in front of several onlooking GCAers lounging on the porch... oh yes, a fine golf moment... bringing my record to like 1-8 against Brad....
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Phil:
First you say "these photo threads..are precisely the place for the kind of vigorous debate I believe Ran and others envisioned for this site."
Then you go on to abruptly state "I'm not sure of Ran's motivations.."
Which is it?
Ran RARELY posts mid thread about anything.
I'm sure he and Sweens were trying to move discussion over in order to preserve a nice photo thread - like the black and whites.
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Gene - as I praise myself for my glories on 9, the ball is lobbed for you, regarding my failures on 4....
Want to spike it?
Regrets, I have a few... and this one, needs again to be mentioned.....
4 balls on green. Mine the closest. 3 putts go in for birdies. History in the balance as no set of 4 birdies has ever been made on that tough hole.
Huckaby misses his, from three inches away.
Oh well, I spiked it for you. And given each telling the putt gets shorter and shorter, I just took it to what I hope is the limit.
;D ;D ;D
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Gene - as I praise myself for my glories on 9, the ball is lobbed for you, regarding my failures on 4....
Want to spike it?
Regrets, I have a few... and this one, needs again to be mentioned.....
4 balls on green. Mine the closest. 3 putts go in for birdies. History in the balance as no set of 4 birdies has ever been made on that tough hole.
Huckaby misses his, from three inches away.
Oh well, I spiked it for you. And given each telling the putt gets shorter and shorter, I just took it to what I hope is the limit.
;D ;D ;D
When we got up to the green Huckaby's ball was in the hole.
However, for some unknown reason he decided to take it out of the hole, rest it on the lip and putt it for a birdie instead.
But he whiffed that and settled for a par.
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;D ;D ;D ;D
OK, that has me dying.
God I am a selfish bastard.
;D ;D
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OK as long as I am rolling.. and we have seen 9....
What also needs to be noted is that this 9 holes comprises one of the coolest things I have ever been able to do in golf... and that is what Gene describes as the "Church nine."
We've discussed it before in here. But for those who haven't tired of me rambling on it....
You've already played a lot of holes one day there. You are relaxing on the porch. The light is like it is in these pictures of 9 right here.
If the spirit moves you... take your bag, take as many clubs as you think are necessary, walk... by yourself.... start on #1, do however many you want to do... all 9 being the best of course....
That is as close to a higher being as one can get on a golf course, I think. It is difficult to describe. But if one is of the ilk that golf can have a spiritual mode, well... that is why this is called the Church Nine. It is just so peaceful.. so tranquil.. so beautiful... and then one has those incredibly fun golf shots to play...
My gosh I was lucky to be able to do that.
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That's way too beardpulling of a question for me to handle, Phil.
9 is a very very cool golf hole. It is a tough shot from that back tee... heck even getting it in the saddle is a fine effort. But for longer hitters, and for me from the middle tee, it becomes vexing, again... how much hill do you bite off? What club do you take it you safely play left? Standard risk-reward stuff, but in an incredible setting... those pics don't shot how much very uphill the tee shot is.
Then the fairway, and the green... well the pics say enough there. St. Andrews has nothing on this hole in terms of humps and hummocks and swales.
I'd make a comment about ho-hum greens, but Kenny appears to have left the building. ;D
Side note: I do have particular love for this hole as I stiffed a 9iron there to FINALLY win a match against my nemesis Miller, all played out in front of several onlooking GCAers lounging on the porch... oh yes, a fine golf moment... bringing my record to like 1-8 against Brad....
Huck,
I had a similar experience at number 9. I was playing the final hole in our match with Christian and his buddy and there were several on the porch (I'm sure waiting anxiously to hear how our match turned out as the boys had not been beaten to that point ;)). We had a front left pin a few paces on the green and I hit the pin and stopped a few inches away for a closing birdie. The porch erupted, so it must have come close to going in the hole. It will always be one of my most memorable moments in all of golf.
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Gene - as I praise myself for my glories on 9, the ball is lobbed for you, regarding my failures on 4....
Want to spike it?
Regrets, I have a few... and this one, needs again to be mentioned.....
4 balls on green. Mine the closest. 3 putts go in for birdies. History in the balance as no set of 4 birdies has ever been made on that tough hole.
Huckaby misses his, from three inches away.
Oh well, I spiked it for you. And given each telling the putt gets shorter and shorter, I just took it to what I hope is the limit.
;D ;D ;D
The tale I heard had you at least 3 FEET away....
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Scott:
BINGO! That was much how mine was... amen brother, and well done.
I played with Christian when he was like 12 and had to play from the short tees... I fear the boy/man that he has become. He'd own me. I could see it then. Hell he damn near did it then.
So I would have erupted also for you, my friend.
;D
As for my failures on 4, you heard likely the 10th re-telling if it got down to 3 feet.
;D
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Phil:
First you say "these photo threads..are precisely the place for the kind of vigorous debate I believe Ran and others envisioned for this site."
Then you go on to abruptly state "I'm not sure of Ran's motivations.."
Which is it?
Ran RARELY posts mid thread about anything.
I'm sure he and Sweens were trying to move discussion over in order to preserve a nice photo thread - like the black and whites.
Gene:
To each his own. Again, I'm not sure of Ran's motivations for posting on the XYZ thread. If you know them, feel free to share. I'm guessing the motivations of folks who want to discuss the merits of particular holes and courses on photo threads who post on said threads is to learn more about them, and have a spirited debate about them. If Ran doesn't like that, he can start deleting all commentary on photo threads (it's his site, and we're all guests here). But it will be a lesser site if he does so, in my view.
Sorry if I've offended your sensibilities. I probably have a unique position here among the regular posters on this board, as I'm pretty sure I've played fewer great courses (and fewer good ones, as well) than anyone registered to post here. I belong to no club, never have, don't play anywhere regularly, and don't golf much anymore. I'm a disinterested observer with a great deal of interest in learning about golf architecture -- and this site, and in particular photo threads like this, remain the single best source I've found for learning more about the merits of golf courses.
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Scott:
BINGO! That was much how mine was... amen brother, and well done.
I played with Christian when he was like 12 and had to play from the short tees... I fear the boy/man that he has become. He'd own me. I could see it then. Hell he damn near did it then.
So I would have erupted also for you, my friend.
;D
As for my failures on 4, you heard likely the 10th re-telling if it got down to 3 feet.
;D
Christian has turned into a fine young man, and a great golfer. It was a pleasure to play a round or two with him, and it's not hard to see where he gets his charm from - the apple didn't fall too far from the tree in this case. Hits it a mile and has a great iron game to go along with it.
Must be neat for Gene to be able to share the Sand Hills experience with his son. It has to build a bond that will extend a lifetime.
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Christian is indeed a lucky lad.
But what's cool is I think he knows it.
And oh yes, sharing that - and many other places - with one's son... golf cannot get any better than that.
I have to admit.... helll I must be biased about the place... I have never been there without the company of extraordinary people. That would have to color one's view. I tend to believe that I could play there with Satan and still have fun given it's such a great golf course.. but who knows.
So OK... great tour so far Matt, even with the sidetracks. Thanks again.
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Matt, thanks for forging on with the pix, much appreciated.
Fully assess? No. But there are some courses where people spend a lifetime playing them and learn something everytime they go out.
If you're talking about a "rating," yes. Now, a course might go up or down 1 point on the scale with repeat play but 1 or 2 plays, to someone who has seen a bunch of courses and has a pretty good idea of things, is sufficient.
Otherwise, toss out almost all the ratings in the Confidential Guide.
Big difference between Tom D and damn near all other raters. :)
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Phil:
That's exactly how I feel. Many people here have not had the opportunity to actually get behind the wheel and instead live vicariously through the pics which are presented here.
That's why an accurate comment is paramount so that one is not misled.
If an individual with an ax to grind and an agenda posts something outright ludicrous stating Carne is better architectuarlly than a course many believe is the greatest in the world than that silliness needs to be addressed.
And Ran Morrissett did so on the xyz thread calling out Mr Mihm's post as one which is misinformed and subsequently of no use to your education.
He VERY RARELY does that.
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Gene:
"That's why an accurate comment is paramount so that one is not misled."
"...Mr Mihm's post as one which is misinformed and subsequently of no use to your education."
I am continually astounded that folks like yourself, who know a great deal about SHills, don't trust the ability of folks like me, who want to learn more about it, to sort out the various arguments presented on these threads and come to their own conclusions, and therefore conclude that such debates ought not take place on photo threads.
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Phil:
I will enjoy the rest of Matt's photo tour and I'm sure you will, too.
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Bill Coore said many times during his presentation at Hidden Creek that such and such "just looks like golf".
That phrase comes to mind every time I see a photo of Sand Hills.
Well, that and a lot of other phrases, most of which have been expressed on here.
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Matt, thanks for forging on with the pix, much appreciated.
Fully assess? No. But there are some courses where people spend a lifetime playing them and learn something everytime they go out.
If you're talking about a "rating," yes. Now, a course might go up or down 1 point on the scale with repeat play but 1 or 2 plays, to someone who has seen a bunch of courses and has a pretty good idea of things, is sufficient.
Otherwise, toss out almost all the ratings in the Confidential Guide.
Big difference between Tom D and damn near all other raters. :)
George,
He didn't qualify his remark and neither shall I. Also, while we all recognize Doak to be some wonder kid, back when he saw those courses (only once) he wasn't as experienced as he is now.
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The #9 green is quite severely sloped, though it doesn't look so. When the greens are at top speed, putting from left and long is really tough. You'd be better off missing a couple yards short and right of the green.
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George,
He didn't qualify his remark and neither shall I. Also, while we all recognize Doak to be some wonder kid, back when he saw those courses (only once) he wasn't as experienced as he is now.
Einstein was still pretty clever while he was just a patent clerk. :)
Man, if that doesn't get me promoted to President of the TDBB Society, nothin' will! Woo hoo!
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On second thought, this post is not needed. Removed.
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"I did not realized that everyone around here had to have the same opinion on Sand Hills. That is pretty sad."
What is sad is being unfairly hypercritical of a place in order to score points on the Internet. Come on, calling Sandhills a Doak 5 is just plain outrageous, regardless of whose opinion it is.
If Ben Crenshaw, or Bill Coore were regular posters here, I'm quite certain the comments would have been more respectful. Just as they are about Ballyneal. Has Ballyneal ever been called a Doak 5?
Now, can we get back to the pics?
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I tend to agree with what Steve S. just said.
Everyone is entitled to their preferences between the great courses of the world, but calling Sand Hills a Doak 5 REALLY goes against the opinions/feelings/thoughts of A LOT of golfers, not just those here on GCA.com
I'm inclined to think D. Mihm caught the course on a bad day.
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By now, I can only guess that poor Matt must feel like he's on a luxury liner sailing past ships filled with Somali pirates. :)
Thank you for your perseverence, Matt.
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I tend to agree with what Steve S. just said.
Everyone is entitled to their preferences between the great courses of the world, but calling Sand Hills a Doak 5 REALLY goes against the opinions/feelings/thoughts of A LOT of golfers, not just those here on GCA.com
I'm inclined to think D. Mihm caught the course on a bad day.
I've never played Sand Hills, but from everything I've seen and read, calling it a Doak 5 (or 6) seems completely preposterous to me. Having said that, he's backed up (err, attempted to back up) his opinion with some reasons that, even if not compelling, don't seem that disingenuous to me. Assuming that he actually, truly holds this opinion -- and remember, he wasn't even the one who mentioned it in this thread originally -- then why shouldn't he be allowed to voice it in a photo thread about the course?
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The fact Sand Hills resides in a completely remote destination devoid of clutter, houses, cooling towers, airports and expressways merits it AT LEAST a 7 on the Doak scale.
Even if the course was dead flat with perfectly rounds greens...
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By now, I can only guess that poor Matt must feel like he's on a luxury liner sailing past ships filled with Somali pirates. :)
Thank you for your perseverence, Matt.
:D Love that line, Gene!
More holes coming tonight...
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Gene,
I would be remised if I didn't follow up on a question I've asked other folks that frequent great courses.
What do you remember about your first round at Sand Hills, and what sticks out from your last round? I'm interested in how great courses evolve. And I'm a major beard puller! ;D
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10th Hole - 472 Yards Par 4
The long par four tenth features one of those heroic downhill tee shots that we all salivate over, with a pretty accommodating fairway but trouble does lurk in the form of fairway bunkers on both sides. The ideal line is to challenge the left bunker in order to get the turbo kick down and to the right. This fairway features tremendous undulations and a really well-struck tee ball can reach the lower portion of the fairway, necessitating a blind second shot back uphill.
The fairway rises to a certain point about 40 yards short of the green or so but then falls again toward the open-fronted green, allowing a running approach from all vantage points. Shots favouring the left side will also filter back toward the putting surface. This is one of the flatter greens on the golf course but it's pitched quite a bit from front to back.
This is one of those holes where the personality changes substantially depending on the wind conditions. Downwind, the hole can be played with a driver and a mid-to-short iron. Into the wind, this is a bear and only the best drive will give you a chance at reaching the green with a long iron or fairway metal.
View of 10th Tee from Ben's Porch at Sunset
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUY-017w-KI/AAAAAAAADt0/7puBPn81m6I/s1600/10M.jpg)
Tee Shot
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUY-0jeTWjI/AAAAAAAADts/pudZBqvUkyo/s1600/10A.jpg)
Approach Shot from Left Side of Fairway
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUY-z_BqyYI/AAAAAAAADtk/U6qV3Ub7oF0/s1600/10D.jpg)
Approach from Right Side of Fairway
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUY-zyL4KbI/AAAAAAAADtc/Kw087mCPAuo/s1600/10E.jpg)
Approach from Center of Fairway about 200 Yards from Green, with clear view of green
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUY-qb3ya7I/AAAAAAAADtU/YeOFnrvlk90/s1600/10O.jpg)
Approach from Lower Portion of Fairway down the middle, with partially obscured view of green
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUY-ppuj_CI/AAAAAAAADtM/gCwF9Vm8RWY/s1600/10G.jpg)
A little guy passing through...
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUY-pbQRp6I/AAAAAAAADtE/gfRTPuCGXys/s1600/10J.jpg)
View from Behind Green Looking Back up Fairway; Note the slope on the right portion of picture
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUY-pR_IUeI/AAAAAAAADs8/SfUqK__4BWk/s1600/10K.jpg)
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Nice photos...tough par.
A nice example of the seemingly random nature of the bunkers. You stand on the tee, and it is not immediately apparent what line should be taken. The bunkers are staggered, and in the past, I don't use a yardage guide (is there one?) to guide me.
Long and straight works. Of course, sometimes you end up with that blind second from the little hollow.
Lots of long, sweeping putts at #10.
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View of 10th Tee from Ben's Porch at Sunset
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c60/NoSkillzMB/SandHills/10M.jpg)
This is a fantastic photo, well done. If you have it full size and would care to share it, let me know (I'm assuming you reduced it for the site, if not, no biggie).
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Lt Colonel (not my boss thankfully) just walked by my desk and caught me staring at Sand Hills pictures. I'll now quote him, "Wow, I thought St. Andrews had more buildings around it"
If I'm lying, I'm dying.
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(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c60/NoSkillzMB/SandHills/10D.jpg)
Contrary to rumor that I passed out in awe from looking at the beautiful blowout bunkers, this is about the precise spot I went down from dehydration walking on our 28th hole of the day.
Thankfully, Mr. Daley was behind us with a cart, and came to my rescue.
Scary stuff indeed, and these days I drink water from start to finish.
btw...wonderful hole, and excellent pictorial essay...thanks!
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I've been following the thread and haven't cared to get into the commentary, as anything I'd say would just be repetitive of Sir Thomas of Huckaby's peans, that we have been singing such praises since this website began more than a decade ago. Criticisms are always interesting, particularly when it comes from a very skilled player. But when I see a guy (no matter if he is Tiger Woods or Joe the Plumber) saying SH is a Doak 5 and reconsiders it to be maye 6-6.5, well that is such an outlier, I can only give it the weight of consideration that an outlier of any statement of said kind is worth. Which is in my opinion... respectfully, one man's opinion in a sea of opposite consensus.
I probably have nearly 500 photos of Sand Hills, yet I sure downloaded those that Matt has shared of the 9th in the gloaming. That really moved my needle and captures the shear massive power of the movement of that land and haunting allure of that ground to the golfer's soul.
I think of what a blessed man Old Tom Simonson was to spend his waning years retired from the rough and rawboned prairie cattleman's life, gazing out across that moving land scape below his usual 'burger cookies' perch; reflecting on this and that and those come to visit him.
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Just a note to everyone - like George Pazin, if you're interested in a couple of the photos, I'd be more than happy to email a couple of my master files in full resolution (these have been cropped to fit the forum) - I know I personally plan on framing a few of these in addition to the shots I took at Ballyneal. Just send me an email or a PM if interested.
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Matt,
Are you going to continue with the remaining holes or have you given up on this with all the other back and forth? :o
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Matt, can we please see the rest. ;D
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:)
I definitely intend to finish what I started and by no means was I discouraged by the back and forth debate within the thread.
Work has been very busy the last week as I've had to tidy things up in preparation for another trip.
I'll try to get a couple holes up tonight and will get the rest up upon my return next week. Sorry for dragging this out...hopefully the pictures end up being worth the wait!
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11th Hole - 408 Yards Par 4
I think this may be one of the most unheralded holes at Sand Hills, a lovely mid-length two shotter played off an elevated tee to a pretty wide fairway that bends right to left around an immense natural blowout bunker. The second shot is played back uphill to a plateau green that falls away on the left side into some deep bunkers while there is short grass both behind the green and to the right. The slope on this green is deceiving and leaving your putt on the wrong side of the hole will scare even the best putters.
Tee Shot
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUZABaNt1MI/AAAAAAAADu0/MRmsTc5CnXA/s1600/11A.jpg)
Approach from Left Side
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUZABCBxJII/AAAAAAAADus/fh7MWyrQq3w/s1600/11E.jpg)
Approach from Left Fairway Bunker
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUZAA0AqPII/AAAAAAAADuk/7hiZ1jxPekU/s1600/11P.jpg)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUZAAoN2MMI/AAAAAAAADuc/VArWXtXYtCY/s1600/11F.jpg)
Approach from Middle of Fairway
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUY_4u4OSPI/AAAAAAAADuU/U8ybBNGlL0Y/s1600/11C.jpg)
Approach from Right Side of Fairway
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUY_4cszxlI/AAAAAAAADuM/NNm1s2Av0m0/s1600/11D.jpg)
Close up View from Behind Green Looking Back
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUY_4ICWOKI/AAAAAAAADuE/P37fXfVCDkI/s1600/11H.jpg)
View from 12th Tee Looking Back down 11th Fairway, showing short grass chipping areas
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUY_36UrIEI/AAAAAAAADt8/Uz-f6AoLszw/s1600/11Q.jpg)
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Matt,
Not unheralded from my perspective. I think the 11th may be the best hole on an already great back nine. It's an excellent strategic hole from one set up as well.
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Matt,
Not unheralded from my perspective. I think the 11th may be the best hole on an already great back nine. It's an excellent strategic hole from one set up as well.
You're probably right, Jim. Harris and I played the tips all six rounds so the tee shot was relatively routine - just aim at the two bunkers down the right side toward the meat of the fairway.
If we moved a set up, we'd obviously be bringing the blowout bunker on the left into play and we'd have to reconsider whether a driver over the bunker was a prudent play or taking a fairway metal out instead is the proper choice.
Now I regret not moving up for a round! :)
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I will never forget the first time I climbed the hill on the left side of this fairway to look for Doug Wright's ball. Upon reaching the top I saw this ...
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c60/NoSkillzMB/SandHills/11P.jpg)
... and my jaw dropped and a giant smile came over my face as I uttered wow!
The massiveness of this blowout is not fully appreciated in this picture because of a lack of frame of reference. But believe me, It is HUGE.
Thanks to the generosity of Dr. Greco, many people on this site have had their lives deeply and forever enriched.
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This thread is incredibly beautiful! Look forward to the rest of the photos.
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Matt
I am enjoying this tour immensely - banter, pirating, grandstanding and all. So many of the shots look familiar; it is amazing they could all be collected on one site. I know C&C say they tend to lean on Dr Mac as their inspiration, but if Sand Hills isn't what a modern Colt would like in this setting I don't know what would. The course looks good enough that I may HAVE to take up (likely a long forgotten) an invite to play there some day. Please continue.
Ciao
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Eric,
Here you are - I actually had already labelled this photo about a month before I played SH so I could learn about the routing before I played.
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c60/NoSkillzMB/SandHillsOHGoogleEarthAugust2009.jpg)
Question: When looking at the routing plan, which direction is north? The front nine seems to move to and fro, but the back nine have a number of almost parallel holes.
I thought that one of the strengths of let's say Muirfield was that the holes constantly change direction thus the relationship of wind to the line of play shifts from hole to hole.
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I will never forget the first time I climbed the hill on the left side of this fairway to look for Doug Wright's ball. Upon reaching the top I saw this ...
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c60/NoSkillzMB/SandHills/11P.jpg)
... and my jaw dropped and a giant smile came over my face as I uttered wow!
The massiveness of this blowout is not fully appreciated in this picture because of a lack of frame of reference. But believe me, It is HUGE.
Thanks to the generosity of Dr. Greco, many people on this site have had their lives deeply and forever enriched.
If i remember correctly, our caddy told us this was one of 3 natural blowouts on the course. I can attest to it being huge, as I climbed in and out of it a few times over the 6 rounds.
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Thanks for continuing, Matt. I appreciate your thoughts on each hole. What does it play from the tips, and what do you and Harris carry for handicaps? I never really play the tips, as I get beat up enough from a box up. Just curious as to whether a 4 handicap who hits it straight but not long would most enjoy? We'll likely get in 72 holes, so may mix it up for each round (maybe wind dependent).
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Tony:
When assessing the yardages don't discount the elevation (3500 ft) and the advantages in carry distance which that brings - about 6% greater carry.
From the diamond tees, which is the better walking course, it is about 6900 yards.
From the squares, it is about 6400 yds.
Double diamonds are 7100 yds.
Circles are 5200.
So the 4 hncp who hits it straight but not long should be able to play the 6900 yd tees due to the extra carry distance one gets at that elevation. Be sure to try to play the tee on #5 from in back of the 4th green unless you are into a 35 mph wind.
Of course, as you noted, iplaying golf at Sand Hills is 98% of the time about what the wind is doing.
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I believe you should consider 10 and 11 together to understand and appreciate part of what makes SH great. Both are par 4s that play in the same direction but you have to remember that the wind is constantly changing. 10 is long and at least for me, you don't always see the green surface when hitting your second shot because the fairway goes up and the green is down below. I believe it is designed for a runup shot and it has a significant tilt to it. 11 is opposite in many respects - you need to keep the ball left because the fairway drops off significantly to the right but that blowout is left. Again, you cannot see the green surface but that is because it is significantly elevated and is basically a shelf where shots on the edges roll down the closely mowed sides. They both have such an incredibly natural feel to them that you understand why C & C needed to do a minimal amount of dirt moving to create the course.
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Thanks, Gene.
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Tony,
I'm about a 5 handicap, not overly long off the tee, and I had no problem at all from the tips. There were no carries at all that were close to being too much for me from those tees. I did enjoy playing the squares, as it made the holes play much differently off the tee as well as the approaches. It was almost like playing a different golf course.
Case in point the 11th hole. When we played it twice from the squares in my first visit, I had a little flip wedge in and birdied it both times. From the tips it was more like an 8 or 9 iron (with no wind) then a 4 iron into the wind. Totally different hole, and no birdies to boot.
I would certainly second Gene's recommendation about the tee on #5. Great hole from that angle, bringing the right hand bunker directly into play. Much more straightforward from the square tees.
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Great thread!
Thanks fellas.
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Tony,
Matt's gone for the next few days, so I'll answer for him.
Matt is a 1 and I play at a 3.
The tips don't play as long as the yardage says. The elevation plus how firm the course is you get enough roll that you won't have difficulty with the length. Not sure why we never tried the other tee decks, but I would recommend you follow Gene's advice and play the different blocks.
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Approach from Left Side of Fairway
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c60/NoSkillzMB/SandHills/8E.jpg)
Does the 8th green slope back to front as much as it looks??
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George. The very rear and wings slope to the front. All of the bunkers influence these slopes. That's why the middle does not because the center bunkers back side has a contrary influence. One of the greatest shots I've ever witnessed illustrated this perfectly. Corey Crandall, the first super, hit a great drive only to yank his approach intop the left side bunker. The pin was on the front of the far right wing. His bunker shot came out perfectly towards the back of the green and started to roll all the way across the entire boomerang. The ball flew maybe 7 yards and rolled probably 75 feet with a decaying orbit all the way into the hole. It was easily the greatest birdie ever on that hole and started off a day full of fireworks that climaxed with an eagle on 16 from 145 yards out to a front center pin. Truely amazing!
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...Corey Crandall, the first super, hit a great drive only to yank his approach intop the left side bunker. The pin was on the front of the far right wing. His bunker shot came out perfectly towards the back of the green and started to roll all the way across the entire boomerang. The ball flew maybe 7 yards and rolled probably 75 feet with a decaying orbit all the way into the hole...
Now that is fun golf!
Thanks Adam.
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Gene,
I would be remised if I didn't follow up on a question I've asked other folks that frequent great courses.
What do you remember about your first round at Sand Hills, and what sticks out from your last round? I'm interested in how great courses evolve. And I'm a major beard puller! ;D
Ben:
Nothing has changed from my first experience at The Sand Hills to my last, which was this past weekend.
The place is timeless.
The first time I played it I was alone waiting for friends to arrive from the west coast. I played the first two holes and then...
...stopped.
It was midweek and I was the only one on the course so I put my bag down (no caddies hired there yet) and sat down at the back of the 2nd green.
I simply sat there and gazed at the vast expanse behind this green at what surely must be the edge of this world, completely overcome by what I had just experienced on those first two holes.
I had to allow some time to pass because I knew if the holes were to continue in this fashion that I would in all likelihood be playing the greatest course in the world. I wanted to soak it all in as I didn't know if I would ever be allowed back again or make the trip to this remote locale.
So I sat there for an hour.
I also thought about other things besides golf, assuredly a fine spot for reflection, which highlighted then as it does now the spiritual nature of a visit to the Sand Hills Golf Club.
I continue this practice today, periodically breaking away from the group during post round refreshments, usually as the sun is setting and play a 6 or 9 hole loop, what I term "church nine," walking on the most peaceful ground this earth will offer.
I left three days ago.
And the place haunts me.
It haunted me in exactly the same manner and intensity 14 years ago as it does this very moment.
It haunts me during the winter months.
And when I sleep.
And when I allow my mind to run adrift for a few short moments during the day.
For me it is the most compelling golf course and land on which a golf course rests in the world.
And obviously others feel the same.
I just had someone text me saying June 11th wasn't good for him NEXT year and to PLEASE include him and try to arrange our golfing retreat on any day but that one.
And he is one of many.
One of many who has had a spell cast by some golfing ground in the middle of nowhere.
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Gene,
Beautiful post - the only way I can follow that up is to say I'm back from my vacation and will be resuming the tour later tonight! Thanks to all for your patience but I can assure you the photos and holes that remain are worth the wait! :)
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Gene, as you know, I feel much the same. But you worded it far far far better than I ever could.
Interesting too, I have certainly told you before, and certainly discussed it in here... but without prompting from you or anyone... my church nine (referenced in this or maybe some other recent thread), it all hit me back of 2nd green also. I too stayed there a long time.
I guess all this is what's so hard to explain to those who see this, or want to judge it, just as a golf course.
It's just the most special place to me on this planet.
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Gene,
Thanks for your answer. One of the most special feelings I've ever had in my life was standing on the 10th green of Old Macdonald (preview round in 2009) and wondering how I had gotten there and how this golf hole had gotten there. Not necessarily the nuts and bolts, but in the years leading to that moment. I suddenly felt very small and that was just fine with me.
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Gene,
You do have a wonderful way with words. We can all sense your passion for the Sand Hills Golf Club and I for one am glad you found a club you can call home. I too share your love for the place as no course I've played to date has moved me the way Sand Hills does. I just don't have the poetic ability that you do to be able to describe it. I'm glad you stop in from time to time on this thread to share stories with all of us. It brings back memories of my two trips that will last for a lifetime.
Scott
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Gene,
I would be remised if I didn't follow up on a question I've asked other folks that frequent great courses.
What do you remember about your first round at Sand Hills, and what sticks out from your last round? I'm interested in how great courses evolve. And I'm a major beard puller! ;D
Ben:
Nothing has changed from my first experience at The Sand Hills to my last, which was this past weekend.
The place is timeless.
The first time I played it I was alone waiting for friends to arrive from the west coast. I played the first two holes and then...
...stopped.
It was midweek and I was the only one on the course so I put my bag down (no caddies hired there yet) and sat down at the back of the 2nd green.
I simply sat there and gazed at the vast expanse behind this green at what surely must be the edge of this world, completely overcome by what I had just experienced on those first two holes.
I had to allow some time to pass because I knew if the holes were to continue in this fashion that I would in all likelihood be playing the greatest course in the world. I wanted to soak it all in as I didn't know if I would ever be allowed back again or make the trip to this remote locale.
So I sat there for an hour.
I also thought about other things besides golf, assuredly a fine spot for reflection, which highlighted then as it does now the spiritual nature of a visit to the Sand Hills Golf Club.
I continue this practice today, periodically breaking away from the group during post round refreshments, usually as the sun is setting and play a 6 or 9 hole loop, what I term "church nine," walking on the most peaceful ground this earth will offer.
I left three days ago.
And the place haunts me.
It haunted me in exactly the same manner and intensity 14 years ago as it does this very moment.
It haunts me during the winter months.
And when I sleep.
And when I allow my mind to run adrift for a few short moments during the day.
For me it is the most compelling golf course and land on which a golf course rests in the world.
And obviously others feel the same.
I just had someone text me saying June 11th wasn't good for him NEXT year and to PLEASE include him and try to arrange our golfing retreat on any day but that one.
And he is one of many.
One of many who has had a spell cast by some golfing ground in the middle of nowhere.
Wow, I'll be here soon. Looking forward to the rest of the photos, Matt.
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12th Hole - 417 Yards Par 4
The 12th is a straightaway par four with much more room than you think on the right side in the landing area. Despite the very wide fairway, positioning is crucial off the tee, as the fairway features a spine that runs essentially right down the middle of the landing area toward the green. This means even a slightly wayward drive will fall down into a lower bowl and take away precious views of the green and the flagstick. There is a very cool and unique bunker feature about 100 or so yards short of the green on the left, basically a serpentine trench that is very shallow but likely hassles anyone who goes long off the tee or short on their second for that matter! There is also a large and imposing bunker complex right of the green, with a putting surface that features subtle breaks but is very quick near the rear portion with a slight falloff area to the back left.
Tee Shot
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUZBKOtKykI/AAAAAAAADwM/ShiCTjmG7eA/s1600/12B.jpg)
Approach from Center of the Fairway
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUZBFmA198I/AAAAAAAADwE/tcd1FshuFA8/s1600/12E.jpg)
Approach from Right Center
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUZBFcDfA3I/AAAAAAAADv8/KvGdKmC8P5g/s1600/12D.jpg)
Late Day view of Trench Bunker in Left Rough
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUZBFIWOM2I/AAAAAAAADv0/2A20BUr8dmI/s1600/12F.jpg)
View from 13th Tee (Right of 12th Green)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUZBFB6IUPI/AAAAAAAADvs/RJAXMSAECHU/s1600/12G.jpg)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUZBExh_95I/AAAAAAAADvk/6prmAncZezg/s1600/12Q.jpg)
View from Behind Looking toward Right Greenside Bunker, with 13th Hole in Background
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUZAogi1SxI/AAAAAAAADvc/7t_6LD2DsXM/s1600/12I.jpg)
Looking toward Left Side of Green and Swales just off the green
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUZAoBMSskI/AAAAAAAADvU/3wEEVAJHyj8/s1600/12R.jpg)
View from Behind Looking Back toward Fairway, with look at great topography
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUZAn3gIJ5I/AAAAAAAADvM/nL0lED8s88E/s1600/12H.jpg)
Long View from Behind Looking Back down Fairway
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUZAnk4iOWI/AAAAAAAADvE/tE6oBRCVl4A/s1600/12V.jpg)
Gorgeous Late-Day View of the 12th from the 13th Green
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUZAnRzj9dI/AAAAAAAADu8/MspBCeB3d78/s1600/12M.jpg)
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Due to the demands of the tee shot and the pinching of the fairway, would this hole classify as a type of bottle?
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13th Hole - 216 Yards Par 3
This hole is a brute from the tips, as it plays from one dune to another perched up high above a lower fairway. There is a significant false front here and mishit shots can roll off the front of the green even if they are hit 20 feet on. More worrisome is the treacherous bunker short right that sits about 15 or 20 feet below the green and certainly bogey becomes an attractive score if the tee shot ends up there.
The green also falls off considerably in the back and features a large, short grass chipping area. This crowned putting surface is exceedingly difficult to hold for all but the best players from the back tees, although I may only be saying that because I didn't hit the green once in six tries despite using at least four different clubs during my time at SH. The hole must play easier from the other decks but I'm hoping that someone like Gene, Tom or Adam can tell me how to properly hold this green from the back deck - it's the one hole I really couldn't figure out during our stay.
That said, perhaps I should have just been happy with my ball rolling off the front edge and trying to get up and down for my par instead of stubbornly trying to get the ball on the putting surface!
13th Tee
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUZCGUiHIwI/AAAAAAAADw0/ai52Pw4OWeU/s1600/13B.jpg)
View from path that crosses the hole at foot of fairway
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUZCF8GIcII/AAAAAAAADws/8oPyYoBILSQ/s1600/13O.jpg)
View of deep bunker in right front of green - notice the significant slope
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUZCFqAGdpI/AAAAAAAADwk/kNYUyt6_84I/s1600/13C.jpg)
View from Back Left of Green
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUZCFKi_hxI/AAAAAAAADwc/FiGYguPWzUM/s1600/13D.jpg)
View of the chipping area in the back of the Green - again, notice the dropoff
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUZCEzoZrwI/AAAAAAAADwU/zzFTysK0uAQ/s1600/13P.jpg)
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Matt:
As with everything at a windy course like this, it all turns on the wind. When that hole plays downwind, I'm not sure there is a way to hit and hold the green from the tips or any other tee for that matter. But that's when the thoughtful golfer plays it like you said... smash one into the hill and hop for the proper hop.. that can be done...or just allow it to roll back down and play it for a four.
In side and headwinds, I have hit and held the green from the tips - at least once into the wind and once with a left to right - they were two damn good shots I must say.
So it can be done.. I am not that good.
To me, this is a fantastic golf hole just for what it is - pretty darn unique. It is very very tough. But heck, so is 16 Cypress, 10 Winged Foot West, other great holes of this heroic genre.
I put it with these among the world's great heroic, tough par threes.
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The lone day I was blessed to spend at Sand Hills (the final day of the season October 2003), the wind was whipping, and it was helping from left to right on 13. I don't think there was a chance to hit this green unless you managed to hit a low running hard draw up the slope. It is a brute, and I love it and put it amongst my favorite heroic par 3s (right there with #11 at Shinnecock).
Brad
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I hate to get ahead of myself, but I am giddy that the 14th is next. It is one of, if not the, best par 5 I have ever played. I am expecting that you have some photos that I will ask for.
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The lone day I was blessed to spend at Sand Hills (the final day of the season October 2003), the wind was whipping, and it was helping from left to right on 13. I don't think there was a chance to hit this green unless you managed to hit a low running hard draw up the slope. It is a brute, and I love it and put it amongst my favorite heroic par 3s (right there with #11 at Shinnecock).
Brad
There is another thread going around regarding Tobiano and, in particular, a lot of criticism for number 7, a long par 3 with a green that is impossible to hold given certain wind conditions.
Many of the comments made here seem to be similar about 13, only in a positive light. I assume this is due to a number of things, including
- you are not dead if you miss this green (but assured of a 4!)
- the front tees are far more manageable
I am curious to see these two holes compared and contrasted. I know they are not the same hole, I just noticed the similar words used for both of them :)
I did play 2 rounds at Sand Hills back in 2004 and did enjoy 13, but remember it playing more like 175 from the middle tees.
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Ben - it is about 180 from the middle tees as I recall. That's still a tough shot up the hill, but not impossible.
As for your thoughts....
- you are pretty dead if you miss the green far right or far left; you're far more likely to make 5 or worse than 4 from there. But short is OK, as is long... closer left and closer right are two pretty nasty bunkers, which are not DEATH but not nice places... 4 is a good score from either of those places. I guess the "positive" takes on this do come from the miss short and long being OK, as well as the fact that those who have posted just like the fact that this is such a killer, heroic golf hole.
- The front tees are indeed quite more manageable. The shot from 216 is the real killer.
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Gene's paean above describes his moment of realization of just how special being among the Sand Hills can be. In fact, I think that many people would have that overwhelming feeling of a moment of realization of your place in the universe in that environment even if you were not playing golf. The fact that people in this discussion group are golfers, and have an activity perfectly suited for the situation they find themselves in when getting alone among such land forms, is frosting on the cake. If you were riding a horse out on that land, you'd have to dismount and pick a place to have your moment of zen. If you were bird hunting, same thing. It is the vastness of the endless land mass and poetry that it plays out in a dance between the cloud shadows and the land shadows, that is the perfect description of the word, 'allure'. If you go out there, you are going to have your moment, as Larry the Cable guy says, "I don't care who you are, that is alluring right there".
The best description I've read why we as golfers have these moments, and it is so overwhelming when we are out on a piece of land like this is described by John Strawn in his book "Driving the Green" near the end where he goes into a little commentary of how we descended from hunter-gatherers, mainly in a Savannah environment where game is rich on the grasslands. The hunt across these grounds, and the idea of impliment like bow and arrow, or anything that involves the activity of aim oriented targeting of prey, is in our DNA. So, we hunt the little white ball. We are like cats stalking a mezmerizing object in the tall grass. We can't help ourselves.
It is just like serendipity that these forces of game and allure to a mystical and ancient resident memory of land in our minds came together in the Sand Hills.
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- you are pretty dead if you miss the green far right or far left; you're far more likely to make 5 or worse than 4 from there. But short is OK, as is long... closer left and closer right are two pretty nasty bunkers, which are not DEATH but not nice places... 4 is a good score from either of those places. I guess the "positive" takes on this do come from the miss short and long being OK, as well as the fact that those who have posted just like the fact that this is such a killer, heroic golf hole.
Tom,
For the record I quite like the hole. Funny enough, I don't remember having much problem with it, but then again I was hitting a 6 from the middle tees instead of a 3 iron or 5 wood from the tips!
To some extent it is a microcosm of the strength of the course in that a) there's not another "heroic" par 3 on the course and b) its sandwiched between a short par 4 and a par 5. It actually fits very well within the routing and the set of short holes on the course.
Ben
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Ben:
Totally understood - I didn't think you were criticizing the hole, just rather trying to get a better understanding of it.
Hell it's been driver for me from the tips... 216 uphill, effective 230... give me any hurting wind and that's driver. No wind and if I really want to hit the green, it's three wood. Crazy hard, oh yes. But crazy thrilling, oh yes also.
In any case great call re the routing too.
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Tom,
Thanks for your take on the 13th - I know it's one of your favourites and now I understand the strategy a bit more. I just have to get it through my thick skull that not every par three is going to be receptive to tee shots from every deck and therein lies the challenge.
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Funny to say for a 216 par 3, but it basically plays as a half par hole, doesn't it?
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Gene's paean above describes his moment of realization of just how special being among the Sand Hills can be. In fact, I think that many people would have that overwhelming feeling of a moment of realization of your place in the universe in that environment even if you were not playing golf. The fact that people in this discussion group are golfers, and have an activity perfectly suited for the situation they find themselves in when getting alone among such land forms, is frosting on the cake. If you were riding a horse out on that land, you'd have to dismount and pick a place to have your moment of zen. If you were bird hunting, same thing. It is the vastness of the endless land mass and poetry that it plays out in a dance between the cloud shadows and the land shadows, that is the perfect description of the word, 'allure'. If you go out there, you are going to have your moment, as Larry the Cable guy says, "I don't care who you are, that is alluring right there".
The best description I've read why we as golfers have these moments, and it is so overwhelming when we are out on a piece of land like this is described by John Strawn in his book "Driving the Green" near the end where he goes into a little commentary of how we descended from hunter-gatherers, mainly in a Savannah environment where game is rich on the grasslands. The hunt across these grounds, and the idea of impliment like bow and arrow, or anything that involves the activity of aim oriented targeting of prey, is in our DNA. So, we hunt the little white ball. We are like cats stalking a mezmerizing object in the tall grass. We can't help ourselves.
It is just like serendipity that these forces of game and allure to a mystical and ancient resident memory of land in our minds came together in the Sand Hills.
Thanks for that, RJ. For a brief moment this morning I once again have hope for the world...
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Funny to say for a 216 par 3, but it basically plays as a half par hole, doesn't it?
From the back tees, I'd have to agree Ben.
Pretty fair if you ask me, especially when you get another half par hole right away on the 14th!
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Matt: well.. for a scratch or close thereto, that is always gonna be very hard to accept. But yeah, I think that's part of what makes this hole so cool... even for you guys, it does play out this way. There ain't many holes like it, that's for sure.
Ben: heck yeah, call it a 3.5 par from the tips. But it's not from any other tee... unless the wind is up (as it so often is), in which case, it's more like a 4.5.
Very tough hole, for sure. I can understand how the high difficulty might put some off. If every hole on the course were this bitchly hard, it would be a problem. But thankfully.... it really is the only stone-bitch on the course. Thus to me it's a very cool thing to have. It is indeed unique. And what's also cool is the stroke or two you lose on 13, you sure has heck have a good chance to gain back on 14.... or not....
Is there a good name for a hole like this, btw? Sentinel? Precipice? High Plateau? Lighthouse? Volcano? God my beard is stretching.
;D
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How about The Alamo ;D ;D
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How about The Alamo ;D ;D
We all sure do remember it.
;D
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Personally I love the 13th hole. It is a damn tough par, that's for sure. But what's wrong with that? There are two places to miss it - short and long. There are two places NOT to miss it - right and left.
It fits in brilliantly before the 14th, and works magnificently in contrast to the short 17th.
I think I read somewhere that Crenshaw feels it's one of best par 3's in the world. I'm not gonna argue with him.
In my 5 plays, I have 2 pars, 1 birdie and 2 bogeys. I've hit everything from a 5-iron to a driver on that hole. Let me tell you, it's a serious "pucker moment" when you pull a driver out on that hole.
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Dick. Well done post. It makes one wonder about the native americans and how they evolved in this region. Quite the dichotomy.
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Matt.....Matt....??? When do we get MORE? Been waiting on the 14th for a while. I need to get this in by the 17th of August, as I'll be there to see the course for myself. Can hardly wait.
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The 13th is the one hole I have the most difficult time defending when people attack my view that Sand Hills is the best course I have seen.
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The 13th is the one hole I have the most difficult time defending when people attack my view that Sand Hills is the best course I have seen.
You do?
I have little problem... I think I gave a pretty good defense in this thread.
But I will say, 13 is the one hole that elicits the most bitching... which remains odd to me because it's one of the first holes I choose to praise.
But yes, we do need to move on to 14... one rarely hears much bitching about that one.
;D
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Good players relish the challenge 13 presents.
Upon stepping onto the 13th tee a member of Winged Foot asked, "Hmmm, what do we have here? Guess we need a high cut three wood..."
Wind was blowing forcefully from right to left and somewhat hurting and he executed the shot to tweleve feet and made the putt for 2.
Done.
It's a difficult, heroic golf hole not unlike 5 at Pine Valley.
Played enough one figures out where to hit the shot in any wind direction and force to yield the best result...with the ball resting on the green.
Miss your target and suffer.
Just had the pleasure of playing with a group from Pine Valley at Sand Hills and almost to a man each chose #13 as their second favorite hole.
The PV and Winged Foot guys understand and appreciate a penal golf hole and the requirements for success as well as any golfers on earth.
And sometimes fun depends on ones perspective as to what is considered fun.
Wrestling alligators and jumping out of airplanes or sitting down for a game of bridge or attending the flower show?
In the words of Crocodile Dundee, " That's not a knife. THIS is a knife!"
#13 is like that machette he pulled out of its leather holder when the attacking thug showed him his wee switchblade.
I don't believe there are many other more thrilling shots in golf.
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Matt.....Matt....??? When do we get MORE? Been waiting on the 14th for a while. I need to get this in by the 17th of August, as I'll be there to see the course for myself. Can hardly wait.
No worries Tony! Updates will be coming tomorrow!
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Gene,
I am moved by your "Ode to Sand Hills" and totally understand your state of mind while sitting on the second green - that truly is a "wow" setting - it looks like you can just tee your ball up and play straight over the property line with limitless golf beckoning in the distance. SH is 18 golf holes sitting in an ocean of them - and then the thunder clouds begin to roll closer and the beauty of the land and the sky entwine in a way that moves the soul.
I love this game because it allows us to visit places that are simply magical - that we would never find if not for some short grass and a bunch of flags sticking out of the ground.
Sand Hills is certainly one of them.
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14th Hole - 508 Yards Par 5
The 14th hole works as a perfect compliment to the tough and imposing 13th, giving players the opportunity to get a stroke back that they almost certainly lost on the hole previous.
If only it was that easy!
This hole is an absolute masterpiece of strategic design. The ideal drive must hug the left side of the fairway to give the long player a chance at a relatively open look to the green. Anything slightly pulled will be gobbled up by a huge bunker complex that runs down the left side of the landing area and most certainly turn the hole into a three shotter.
The right side of the fairway is very inviting off the tee but the angle it presents to the green is less than ideal due to a perfectly placed bunker right in front of the green.
Layups to the left will again open up the angle to the green but the land drops off severely about 100 yards from the putting surface, meaning a blind third into the smallest green on the golf course. And what a green it is! It is pitched severely from back to front and there is a large bunker left in addition to the one in front. Approach shots that bail out to the right are likely dead, as there is almost no room to land the ball on the green and have it hold. In fact, the best play may be to putt the ball and use the contours around the green to get the ball within two-putt range.
This is undoubtedly the finest short par five I've had the pleasure of playing and must be on a very short list of the best "half-par" three-shotters in the world.
Tee Shot
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUZDDFWOspI/AAAAAAAADyk/pkwNEMwpo_I/s1600/14B.jpg)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUZDCw5NrlI/AAAAAAAADyc/eS_kgWUJbyw/s1600/14O.jpg)
Bunker Complex Left of Fairway in Landing Area
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUZDCROmF-I/AAAAAAAADyU/WfE0sPhCwNA/s1600/14Q.jpg)
Second Shot from Middle of Fairway
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUZDCFMPtMI/AAAAAAAADyM/vwHupksswj8/s1600/14D.jpg)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUZC3_fe9xI/AAAAAAAADyE/2MIN3pVIyDQ/s1600/14R.jpg)
Third Shot from Lower Left Portion of Fairway, Leaving Blind Shot
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUZC3UwkfNI/AAAAAAAADx8/WuAKgvq6vEs/s1600/14E.jpg)
Third Shot from Center Portion of Fairway Late in Day
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUZC2952GYI/AAAAAAAADx0/0Waf5qQERBA/s1600/14F.jpg)
Short Right of the Green...not Ideal! Notice the tremendous back to front slope.
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUZC2tM3qSI/AAAAAAAADxs/FtMzwxkPWqA/s1600/14G.jpg)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUZC2KGSrpI/AAAAAAAADxk/mJyyYBlG86g/s1600/14I.jpg)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUZCrV30QZI/AAAAAAAADxc/CwzttChuESs/s1600/14V.jpg)
Putting the ball around bunker may actually be the best play here
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUZCrJnewGI/AAAAAAAADxU/4eiFc6ffwJU/s1600/14X.jpg)
Perfectly placed front bunker
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUZCq1KwtRI/AAAAAAAADxM/VHRFE_YKwRo/s1600/14Y.jpg)
From Behind 14th Green Looking back up Fairway
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUZCqbiNbjI/AAAAAAAADxE/OeLgtBuIR6s/s1600/14M.jpg)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUZCqEW9fNI/AAAAAAAADw8/jtjwq5CX-6c/s1600/14Z.jpg)
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Matt,
Thanks for the photos! My camera malfunctioned the one day I had the opportunity to play out there, so it is awesome to see the photos I wish I could have!
I'm on a bunkering kick today... ;D that bunker in front of the green has to be one of the greatest single bunkers in golf, yes?
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Ben,
You are absolutely spot on with your comment about the front bunker. It dictates play all the way back to the tee and wreaks havoc with approach shots. When you have a bunker 500 yards away in your thought process as you prepare to hit the tee ball, it must be a great one indeed.
It's also the site of one of the most incredible golf shots I've ever witnessed. The same golfer that Gene made reference to from Winged Foot a few posts ago (at least I THINK it is the same golfer) encountered a severely plugged lie in the face of that bunker. One where only a portion of the top of the ball could be seen. No stance at all due to the severe upslope, mind you. He took a mighty swing, fell backwards, regained his balance, and watched his ball roll out to a few feet of the cup. Simply one of the best I've ever seen.
Same golfer who, on the next tee, pushed a tee ball so wildly to the right it ended up in 14 fairway, from where he made par. He tried to be coy and say that he intended to hit it over there due to the angle into the green, but I called him on it and he later confessed ;D
14 is one of my favorite par 5s in all of golf. I love a hole that presents an opportunity for a good score for golfers of all levels, but can jump up and bite you if not played properly. Walking off this hole with a 6 or higher can demoralize a golfer. Especially in lieu of the difficulty of the hole before and immediately after.
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I'm not sure I saw it mentioned, but this green is very shallow if I remember correctly. Could it be more than 10 or 15 yards deep?
That’s what made it so hard for me.
You have to be all the way left and very long off the tee to have a favorable angle to the green to go for it in 2. From anywhere right in the fairway off the drive it's near impossible to get there in 2 and HOLD the green. I found myself in that back trap probably 4 out of 6 times.
Maybe its just me and the way my game plays, but I found myself trying to make par on this hole and getting my lost stroke from 13 back on 16, a much easier par 5 IMHO.
Fantastic par 5. I liked this one better than 1.
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Harris,
#16 much easier than #14? Surely you are joking. Yes the green is very shallow, and angled just so that you do need to approach it from as far left as you can if at all possible.
Not being able to hit the green and hold it from the right side of the fairway? That's why you need to hug the left side. That's what makes it so great. You can play to the right, away from the trouble, but then your second shot is just that much tougher. The green will receive a high cut just fine from any part of the fairway, you just have to be precise. There are more ways to make a 4 than hit the green and two-putt, and all the options are available on this gem of a hole.
By the way, if you do hit it right and don't think you can hit and hold the green from there, why not play short and left and leave yourself a little pitch up the green for your 4? There's a nice little flat section of fairway that allows for just this shot.
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14 is right near the top of the short list of my very favorite holes to play, regardless of par. Of the par 5s I have played I struggle to come up with one I enjoy more.
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Scott,
In regards to 14, I fully agree with what you are saying, maybe I just don't put it down in a post very well. I hit a fade off every drive (worked for years trying to get rid of it) so know all about how difficult it is to get to the green it 2 from the right. I also found from the back tees the hole plays just long enough that I didn't have the right club in my bag for the second shot. From the right, there is no run up shot without amazing accuracy right of the front bunker. I tend to play just about every par 5 I come across the same. Hit as long a drive as possible, and get as close to the green as possible and try to make an up and down or a 2 putt birdie. The beauty of 14 is how difficult that is. I love this hole.
During our trip, I didn't find 16 that difficult of a par 5. If you go in the blowout on the left it certainly would be. I guess my fade off the tee helped in that sense. There is so much room up around the green it was bombs away on the second as well. Either gets on the green or in the huge flats right and in front of the green. I don’t believe we played the hole with a strong wind into us, so I’m sure that helped. I won or got back in most of my matches with Matt on 16 with a birdie.
I found 14 to be much tighter and unforgiving. It seemed to tease you with the second to go for it and I fell for it every time.
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Guys, after a certain Mr Choi dubbed a couple of terms for certain types of design features and the type of shot and golfer that one found there - we called this long left bowl - "The Bowl of Accomplishment" - one of my mates was able to hit it there 3 out of 4 rounds - a super reward for a super tee shot.
A spectacular par 5 and a real highlight of our trip to SH
(hope this image works) :D
(https://www.me.com/ro/brett65/Galleries/100017/SH_14%20Bowl%20of%20Accomplishment/web.jpg?ver=12811044850001)
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Help?
I selected 'insert image' icon, then inserted hyperlink to photo on me.com - but it doesn't display - any thoughts on how to fix this instead of attaching them- I have a heap of pics to load.
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Help?
I selected 'insert image' icon, then inserted hyperlink to photo on me.com - but it doesn't display - any thoughts on how to fix this instead of attaching them- I have a heap of pics to load.
Replace the fake url below with your image url and replace the regular brackets with square brackets
(img)fakeurl.com(/img)
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Brett, that image above says more for the scale of Sand Hills than any other pic I have seen. Amazing.
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Scott S,
I just looked at our scorecards for the trip and I can see why Harris thinks the 14th is more difficult. We played the hole six times and he was an aggregate +6, while I made one double and five pars for an aggregate +2.
No birdies for either of us. The hole was playing into the wind both days we were there but I would think that would make the approach shot easier to hold. Alas, no birdies.
It's a real harlot!
On the other hand, both Harris and I birdied the 16th (playing downwind both days) twice and both of us played it under par for our six rounds (both with an aggregate of -1).
14 is definitely the easier hole on paper but the extremely small target and exacting nature of the approach obviously caused us both trouble on our first visit.
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Guys, after a certain Mr Choi dubbed a couple of terms for certain types of design features and the type of shot and golfer that one found there - we called this long left bowl - "The Bowl of Accomplishment" - one of my mates was able to hit it there 3 out of 4 rounds - a super reward for a super tee shot.
A spectacular par 5 and a real highlight of our trip to SH
(hope this image works) :D
(https://www.me.com/gallery/#100017/SH_14%20Bowl%20of%20Accomplishment)
Had to be Justin, right? That guy is crazy long....
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15th Hole - 469 Yards Par 4
Here is yet another example of a hole where a certain feature dominates strategy all the way back to the tee, even though it doesn't necessarily come into play on that particular shot.
On the 14th, it was the front bunker that dictates how you play the entire golf hole and here on the 15th, you have an elevated green complex tucked almost completely behind a large dune that forces the player to be extremely accurate off the tee just to get a glimpse of the putting surface for their approach.
On first glance, you don't see how strategic the hole is. You have a very wide fairway and everything is pretty much right in front of you. The fairway is set at a slight angle from the tee, making the right fairway bunker more of a cross bunker and the player usually will be inclined to avoid the carry, if possible, instead hitting it toward the expansive left side.
You will immediately find this isn't ideal, as you'll have a completely blind, uphill approach over the dune and the huge blowout. The best line challenges the cross bunker and ends up on the right third of the fairway, which will, at the very least, offer a partial view of the green. Either way, you will have to execute on your approach, as you'll likely have a long iron or even a fairway metal second shot into a pretty large green.
Shots hit slightly left may kick right onto the green and there is a lot of short grass around the green to give players some options as far as getting up and down. This is a very challenging golf hole and just another example of how much thought must go into your shotmaking at Sand Hills - most long par fours allow you to wail away off the tee with no regard for position but here, you are challenged right from the start.
Tee Shot
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUZDndTZfuI/AAAAAAAADzc/net9Hz9NLfE/s1600/15B.jpg)
Blind Approach from Left Side of Fairway and slightly left of center
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUZDnK_MEZI/AAAAAAAADzU/8KuGuT-lGEQ/s1600/15Q.jpg)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUZDm9CKReI/AAAAAAAADzM/8SY7h-WSDVo/s1600/15F.jpg)
Approach from Center and Right Side Opens up the View to Green
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUZDgl8qdKI/AAAAAAAADzE/3swBiaXxbMs/s1600/15D.jpg)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUZDgUcKMVI/AAAAAAAADy8/eKr3v8soUZk/s1600/15G.jpg)
View from behind green looking back toward Tee
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUZDf2Dq93I/AAAAAAAADy0/j_sZsgOxRAg/s1600/15H.jpg)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUZDfgcXJTI/AAAAAAAADys/fZRh1zh-ITE/s1600/15S.jpg)
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Matt, my dad, an amateur photography buff, would be damn impressed with your photos.
Thanks for the tour, looking forward to the rest.
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I think 15 is one of the best holes on a back nine that is chock full of them. You simply MUST flirt with the bunkers on the right in order to have any view of the green at all. Into the wind I would imagine they would not be able to be carried, and then the play would have to be up the left, followed by some sort of shot up the right side to try for an up and down for a par.
At 460 yards plus uphill, it is indeed a brute. I have heard from one GCA member that 15 is not a good hole at all, I don't recall the reasoning. For me it fits right in with the rest of the other 17 holes - simply a delight to play. You can be as aggressive off the tee as you want, or you can play safe and try for a par with a pitch and putt.
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I think 15 is one of the best holes on a back nine that is chock full of them. You simply MUST flirt with the bunkers on the right in order to have any view of the green at all. Into the wind I would imagine they would not be able to be carried, and then the play would have to be up the left, followed by some sort of shot up the right side to try for an up and down for a par.
At 460 yards plus uphill, it is indeed a brute. I have heard from one GCA member that 15 is not a good hole at all, I don't recall the reasoning. For me it fits right in with the rest of the other 17 holes - simply a delight to play. You can be as aggressive off the tee as you want, or you can play safe and try for a par with a pitch and putt.
Interesting that another GCA member would say that about #15.
I've stated before that 15 has to be one of the best par 4s in golf.
Just played at Sand Hills with a group from Pine Valley and to a man each thought 15 to be the best hole on the course.
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Scott S,
I just looked at our scorecards for the trip and I can see why Harris thinks the 14th is more difficult. We played the hole six times and he was an aggregate +6, while I made one double and five pars for an aggregate +2.
No birdies for either of us. The hole was playing into the wind both days we were there but I would think that would make the approach shot easier to hold. Alas, no birdies.
It's a real harlot!
On the other hand, both Harris and I birdied the 16th (playing downwind both days) twice and both of us played it under par for our six rounds (both with an aggregate of -1).
14 is definitely the easier hole on paper but the extremely small target and exacting nature of the approach obviously caused us both trouble on our first visit.
I wouldn't believe it but I'm sure what you say is true. #16 can be a beast if the tee shot is not hit perfectly. The layup shot must then contend with the bunkering at the bend, and, if not challenged, could leave a third shot upwards of 180 to 200 yards in. The roller coaster fairway rarely yields a flat lie, making a second shot with a fairway wood a challenge as well. I must admit I'm not very good with a fairway wood, so I usually choose to lay up in the 100 yard range and play in from there. Can't get the damn things airborne, so carrying the native on the direct line to the green is not much of an option for me.
I think I'm a couple under par on each in my five plays, but have had to fight a bit harder to earn my birdies on 16 than on 14.
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I think 15 is one of the best holes on a back nine that is chock full of them. You simply MUST flirt with the bunkers on the right in order to have any view of the green at all. Into the wind I would imagine they would not be able to be carried, and then the play would have to be up the left, followed by some sort of shot up the right side to try for an up and down for a par.
At 460 yards plus uphill, it is indeed a brute. I have heard from one GCA member that 15 is not a good hole at all, I don't recall the reasoning. For me it fits right in with the rest of the other 17 holes - simply a delight to play. You can be as aggressive off the tee as you want, or you can play safe and try for a par with a pitch and putt.
Interesting that another GCA member would say that about #15.
I've stated before that 15 has to be one of the best par 4s in golf.
Just played at Sand Hills with a group from Pine Valley and to a man each thought 15 to be the best hole on the course.
Gene,
I wish I could recall the reasoning but I don't want to put words in the fella's mouth unless I can remember the whole context of the conversation.
I'll give it some more thought before responding, if I'm able to at all.
I would agree with the guys from Pine Valley - it is a great golf hole in my mind.
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Guys, after a certain Mr Choi dubbed a couple of terms for certain types of design features and the type of shot and golfer that one found there - we called this long left bowl - "The Bowl of Accomplishment" - one of my mates was able to hit it there 3 out of 4 rounds - a super reward for a super tee shot.
A spectacular par 5 and a real highlight of our trip to SH
(hope this image works) :D
(https://www.me.com/gallery/#100017/SH_14%20Bowl%20of%20Accomplishment)
Had to be Justin, right? That guy is crazy long....
Scott - Very proud to say that is me down there. Not so proud to say out of the three times I got down into the bowl of accomplishment I had wedge, 9 iron, wedge, and made 6,6,5. Also got up and down for the 5!!!
Mr Morrissy on the other hand was on the flat on top of the hill. Probably hit 3 wood or 5 wood in and went 4,5 4, I reckon.
Very fun hole
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16th Hole - 612 Yards Par 5
The view from the 16th tee may be one of the most breathtaking on the golf course, as you are perched well above fairway grade and you can see the remarkable land that Sand Hills sits on for miles in any direction.
After soaking up the view, the player must contend with the longest hole on the golf course, albeit one that plays significantly shorter than the scorecard indicates due to its downhill nature. The drive must be hit toward the fairway bunker in the distance through the fairway on the right, which will bring the meat of the fairway into play. If you are looking for the chance to reach the green in two shots, your tee ball will have to flirt with the large bunker complex that runs down the left hand side. The fairway on the left will give a 'turbo boost' to drives and allow the hole to play much shorter then if played more conservatively.
The fairway dips and rolls throughout the landing area, with almost no chance of a flat lie on your second shot, making it a challenge even if you intend to layup. Adding more difficulty is the fact that any layup or shot toward the green will have to challenge the bunkers that pinch the left side of the fairway approximately 150 yards from the green. Players deciding to lay back from the sand will be forced into hitting a long iron third shot, certainly not the ideal choice!
The green is essentially bunkerless, with one lonely bunker that sits about 30 yards left of the putting surface but it usually will only come into play for those trying to hit the green in two shots. The putting surface pitches from left to right and slightly toward the back and there is a lot of short grass around the green to allow many options to get up and down. This is a really fun hole and yet another strong and unique par five.
Tee Shot
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUZEnSRXrcI/AAAAAAAAD1E/QxM2LKAZAek/s1600/16B.jpg)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUZEnGUJNcI/AAAAAAAAD08/FgucxJWCh-I/s1600/16Q.jpg)
Second Shot from Left Side of Fairway
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUZEmxKFjOI/AAAAAAAAD00/QrGKK8rxkao/s1600/16S.jpg)
Second shot from Middle/Right of Fairway
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUZEgdDZTnI/AAAAAAAAD0s/UaITQxBxc3k/s1600/16D.jpg)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUZEgKIocjI/AAAAAAAAD0k/c8UIxoumu1M/s1600/16E.jpg)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUZEf_hFk3I/AAAAAAAAD0c/caX8fJW1uzs/s1600/16R.jpg)
Long third shot from behind bunkers
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUZEfkP6AsI/AAAAAAAAD0U/Bkst-j_iNEk/s1600/16T.jpg)
Third Shot from Near Bunkers on Left
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUZEfSmX5wI/AAAAAAAAD0M/zJwglbQ7nmA/s1600/16F.jpg)
Approach Shot from about 100 Yards
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUZEUgw4MJI/AAAAAAAAD0E/tXSDpzii7iA/s1600/16H.jpg)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUZEUcXRooI/AAAAAAAADz8/D3hDbRgb7rY/s1600/16J.jpg)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUZEUGYnYqI/AAAAAAAADz0/a9megtY81QQ/s1600/16U.jpg)
View of chipping area behind green
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUZETrEv-oI/AAAAAAAADzs/UHwpWcaV6Cw/s1600/16X.jpg)
View from Behind Green looking back up Fairway
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUZETaq4soI/AAAAAAAADzk/5UVlx2zazKo/s1600/16L.jpg)
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Guys, after a certain Mr Choi dubbed a couple of terms for certain types of design features and the type of shot and golfer that one found there - we called this long left bowl - "The Bowl of Accomplishment" - one of my mates was able to hit it there 3 out of 4 rounds - a super reward for a super tee shot.
A spectacular par 5 and a real highlight of our trip to SH
(hope this image works) :D
(https://www.me.com/gallery/#100017/SH_14%20Bowl%20of%20Accomplishment)
Had to be Justin, right? That guy is crazy long....
Scott - Very proud to say that is me down there. Not so proud to say out of the three times I got down into the bowl of accomplishment I had wedge, 9 iron, wedge, and made 6,6,5. Also got up and down for the 5!!!
Mr Morrissy on the other hand was on the flat on top of the hill. Probably hit 3 wood or 5 wood in and went 4,5 4, I reckon.
Very fun hole
Scott, sorry I didnt get to this before Darren got to join up to GCA and make his very first post one of mistaken identity. Welcome Glossy.
Although Justin is long, it is very wild and varied, whereas Glossy used to hit it a mile and straight, and is just finding his sea legs again.
14: I had 7, 4,5,5, - a favourite.
THanks again Matt for the Pics - they are excellent.
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Gene,
I would be remised if I didn't follow up on a question I've asked other folks that frequent great courses.
What do you remember about your first round at Sand Hills, and what sticks out from your last round? I'm interested in how great courses evolve. And I'm a major beard puller! ;D
Ben:
Nothing has changed from my first experience at The Sand Hills to my last, which was this past weekend.
The place is timeless.
The first time I played it I was alone waiting for friends to arrive from the west coast. I played the first two holes and then...
...stopped.
It was midweek and I was the only one on the course so I put my bag down (no caddies hired there yet) and sat down at the back of the 2nd green.
I simply sat there and gazed at the vast expanse behind this green at what surely must be the edge of this world, completely overcome by what I had just experienced on those first two holes.
I had to allow some time to pass because I knew if the holes were to continue in this fashion that I would in all likelihood be playing the greatest course in the world. I wanted to soak it all in as I didn't know if I would ever be allowed back again or make the trip to this remote locale.
So I sat there for an hour.
I also thought about other things besides golf, assuredly a fine spot for reflection, which highlighted then as it does now the spiritual nature of a visit to the Sand Hills Golf Club.
I continue this practice today, periodically breaking away from the group during post round refreshments, usually as the sun is setting and play a 6 or 9 hole loop, what I term "church nine," walking on the most peaceful ground this earth will offer.
I left three days ago.
And the place haunts me.
It haunted me in exactly the same manner and intensity 14 years ago as it does this very moment.
It haunts me during the winter months.
And when I sleep.
And when I allow my mind to run adrift for a few short moments during the day.
For me it is the most compelling golf course and land on which a golf course rests in the world.
And obviously others feel the same.
I just had someone text me saying June 11th wasn't good for him NEXT year and to PLEASE include him and try to arrange our golfing retreat on any day but that one.
And he is one of many.
One of many who has had a spell cast by some golfing ground in the middle of nowhere.
WOW....just reading this gave me goosebumps! Sounds like an incredibly special place...I hope to visit one day in my life and have similar feelings. Thanks Gene!!!!!
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Matt,
# 2 is certainly amongst my favorite holes, certainly the green is, but, the view, standing on the 2nd green may be my favorite.
Difficulty and course records are immaterial when it comes to judging Sand Hills.
The ultimate question is, after walking off the 18th green, do you want to go directly to the 1st tee.
For me, the answer is yes.
The course provides a challenge that's fun to meet, provided you're playing from tees commensurate with your ability.
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Matt,
# 2 is certainly amongst my favorite holes, certainly the green is, but, the view, standing on the 2nd green may be my favorite.
Difficulty and course records are immaterial when it comes to judging Sand Hills.
The ultimate question is, after walking off the 18th green, do you want to go directly to the 1st tee.
For me, the answer is yes.
The course provides a challenge that's fun to meet, provided you're playing from tees commensurate with your ability.
Pat, which tee to play is still a lingering question for me. I’ll be there at this time next week (wow, can’t it get here already) and hopefully on the second 18. I saw that Brett Morrisey stated in his thread on his US trip that he was “underwhelmed” by SH the first time from a forward tee. I guess I don’t want that to happen, but I rarely, if ever, play the back tees at any course. I think that I will, however, have to do it at least once at SH. I’ll be there next week with other GCA’ers, and I have no idea how they play, or where they’ll want to play from. So, do we still get a great course from a tee up from the tips, or is that when SH turns into a Doak 5?
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Tony,
I am sure you will get a lot of responses, and here is mine. When I have played at Sand Hills, I have been lucky enough to stay for 3 days and play all day. Therefore, I take the opportunity to play every set of tees. I have played the forward circle tess on my third round of the day. In my opinion, the course does not turn into a 5 no matter which tees you play from. I am a decent golfer with average length off the tee, and I was able to manage the Diamonds OK. I think the diamonds offer some of the best holes over all, however I have never felt cheated after a round from the square tees. It sounds like you are stressing that you may "miss" something. Again, this is my opinion, but as soon as you make the turn from the practice area and see the course, you will realze that you will not be dissapointed.
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Matt,
# 2 is certainly amongst my favorite holes, certainly the green is, but, the view, standing on the 2nd green may be my favorite.
Difficulty and course records are immaterial when it comes to judging Sand Hills.
The ultimate question is, after walking off the 18th green, do you want to go directly to the 1st tee.
For me, the answer is yes.
The course provides a challenge that's fun to meet, provided you're playing from tees commensurate with your ability.
Pat, which tee to play is still a lingering question for me. I’ll be there at this time next week (wow, can’t it get here already) and hopefully on the second 18. I saw that Brett Morrisey stated in his thread on his US trip that he was “underwhelmed” by SH the first time from a forward tee. I guess I don’t want that to happen, but I rarely, if ever, play the back tees at any course. I think that I will, however, have to do it at least once at SH. I’ll be there next week with other GCA’ers, and I have no idea how they play, or where they’ll want to play from. So, do we still get a great course from a tee up from the tips, or is that when SH turns into a Doak 5?
Tony,
I'll echo what Keith stated - I have played rounds from all sets of tees, and I don't think you will feel "underwhelmed" playing from the squares. I think it plays about 6,500 yards from there, par 71. I too am an average length player and didn't have too difficult a time getting around Sand Hills from the tips, but I did enjoy some of the holes from the squares as well. It will kick your butt if you're not on your game no matter which tees you play from.
There are a few holes that I would change it up on - most notably #5, #8 and #11. #5 from the diamond tee is a MUCH better hole with the angle that is created off the tee. I also enjoyed stepping back on #8 as it brings the bunker on the right side into play, but I do enjoy that hole from the square tees as it allows one to try and drive the green and bring all kinds of numbers into play, from 2 to 6. #11 is fun from the square tees as it shortens the hole quite a bit to about 350 or so, allowing for a wedge into that green and bringing the bunker complex on the left more into play.
The "double diamonds" stretch it to over 7,000 I believe and it is quite a test from there.
If you're used to playing courses at about 6,500 yards, then play the squares. If you're used to longer ones than the diamonds would be the tees to choose. If you have the chance, play from all, as the holes can change dramatically from one tee to the next.
Enjoy yourself no matter which tees you play - I'm sure you'll have a great time.
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Tony,
I agree with Keith and Scott. You certainly wont be underwhelmed. I played in Brett's group and certainly wasnt underwhelmed, in fact I was quite the opposite. But to see SH in all its beauty, grandeur and intimidating best there are certainly some diamond tees that are not to be missed. I am a bit longer than average off the tee, but dont take any joy out of grinding from the back tees all day hitting nothing but driver.
We just came from Ballyneal where there were no tee markers, which totally changed my outlook to the teeing areas and how they must be played, as previously I was very strict about using one set of tees for a whole round. Generally I would always play the back tees the first time I played the course.
Without knowing anything about your game or the conditions you will be presented with during your stay, might I suggest this hybrid model for your first round. This will take into account all the "not to be missed" spots whilst providing a nice balance for the average player.
1 - SQUARE - wont miss anything here and actually think this tee requires you to think more about your second shot
2 - DIAMOND - Make sure you take the one left of the first green
3 - SQUARE - hole is difficult enough as it is. No need to go back another two clubs
4 - DIAMOND - left of 3rd green - WOW, WOW, WOW, WOW
5 - DIAMOND - Shooting over 4th green, WOW, WOW (you get the picture)
6 - SQUARE - Difficult green complex, more control with a shorter iron is an advantage
7 - SQUARE - More of an opportunity to drive the green as well presenting yourself with a knee knocker if you dont quite get it right
8 - SQUARE/DIAMOND - Like Scott said. Both must be played at some point as they both add value for different reasons
9 - SQUARE
10 - SQUARE
11 - DIAMOND - WOW, back tee presents best look at left hand bunker
12 - SQUARE
13 - DIAMOND - Will probably make the hole harder but think it is a much better hole from here
14 - SQUARE - If you are long enough to reach the "bowl of accomplishment" the surprise the first time you creast that hill and see your ball 150 yards in front of your playing partners is very fun
15 - DIAMOND - Intimidating tee shot, but its an intimidating hole and should be experienced as the beast that it is. Actually plays a little shorter than its length as fairway is fast around its landing zone
16 - SQUARE/ DIAMOND - Doesnt matter too much on this one
17 - SQUARE
18 - SQUARE - Big enough beast and tough enough second shot as it is, no need to make an up hill shot harder
You will have a blast.
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Dan, great suggestion for tee decks to play.
Matt and I didn't switch it up enough, if at all. Didn't take anything away from my experience, but after reading everyone's suggestion I'm actually wishing we did change it up a bit.
Tony, play from every where, you will love the course no matter what. That Doak 5 stuff is nonsense.
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Matt,
Holes with "SKYLINE" greens are amongst my favorites, and # 13 certainly is one of the best due to the surrounding terrain and the winds.
Quite simply, it's a classic.
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17th Hole - 150 Yards Par 3
Ran said it best in his wonderful writeup in the "Courses by Country" section when he called this stunner "a touch of poetry".
A wonderful, short one shotter with a small but very well protected green. If you don't have a birdie putt, you'll be hard pressed to avoid a bogey or perhaps worse, as deep, gnarly bunkers surround the putting surface.
The view from the dune behind the hole, with the 18th in the background, may be one of the most gorgeous views in golf and it's worth the climb...and the inevitable scrapes on your legs! Simply put, this is one of my favourite short par threes in golf.
View from Dune Behind Tee
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUZFgfHq4PI/AAAAAAAAD2E/apSxrK37xwY/s1600/17A.jpg)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUZFgA6cu3I/AAAAAAAAD18/5iHVAulpgVo/s1600/17B.jpg)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUZFfta96cI/AAAAAAAAD10/NBGVbYNqLN8/s1600/17C.jpg)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUZFfYs1XjI/AAAAAAAAD1s/ktGJXojc-RI/s1600/17Y.jpg)
View from Back Tee Deck
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUZFXpfILcI/AAAAAAAAD1k/6i2iv0DV184/s1600/17Z3.jpg)
View from Back of Green Looking back toward Tee and 16th Hole
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUZFXbi60nI/AAAAAAAAD1c/UDB4X6-IyXY/s1600/17Z6.jpg)
View from Front Bunker
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUZFXMSmTNI/AAAAAAAAD1U/-ByVxFUitDk/s1600/17Z8.jpg)
View from Left Side of Green
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUZFWuwByoI/AAAAAAAAD1M/4roHr-bOQeM/s1600/17Z7.jpg)
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This is a great thread, thanks for all the photos.
Sandhills Golf Club is a very special place. Since I will never play there again, I really enjoy the pics. Loosens up some fabulous memories.
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17th Hole - 150 Yards Par 3
The view from the dune behind the hole, with the 18th in the background, may be one of the most gorgeous views in golf and it's worth the climb...and the inevitable scrapes on your legs! Simply put, this is one of my favourite short par threes in golf.
Matt - Mr. Younscap should engage your services to construct a tee up on that dune. That is an awesome view of the hole. What do you think the yardage would have been from where you were standing?
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17th Hole - 150 Yards Par 3
The view from the dune behind the hole, with the 18th in the background, may be one of the most gorgeous views in golf and it's worth the climb...and the inevitable scrapes on your legs! Simply put, this is one of my favourite short par threes in golf.
Matt - Mr. Younscap should engage your services to construct a tee up on that dune. That is an awesome view of the hole. What do you think the yardage would have been from where you were standing?
Darren,
There was a tee back there at some point in time that has since been abandoned. That may be from where Matt was snapping that picture. I believe I've heard that it played about 170-175 from that tee, but I'm sure others would have a more definitive answer than my guess.
It's a fitting finale to what I think is the best set of threes on the planet.
Scott
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I believe the hole measures 168 yds from the old tee and think the last year it was open was in 1998.
Indeed, the construction crew would break for lunch and sit right there during their noon repast.
A stunning view and extremely difficult shot to execute when the gusts of wind were forceful.
And our resident GCA meteorologist would like nothing more than to have the tee restored so he could set up his anemometer to record more accurate and up to the moment wind readings.
Scott:
Never say never.
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18th Hole - 467 Yards Par 4
This wonderful journey ends appropriately with an epic, uphill par four. The dominant feature is obviously the massive bunker complex that runs down the left side and crosses in front of tee shots hit from the diamond tees.
The ideal tee shot carries the right corner of that bunker but long hitters need to work the ball a bit from right to left to avoid going through the fairway, as there are a couple of deep bunkers over there that will almost certainly bring bogey or worse into play. The second shot is entirely uphill to a large green and depending on your fairway positioning, a semi-blind approach may be required. This green is pitched severely from back to front and two-putts from the back of the green should be welcomed.
Make sure that you take one more look back at the remarkable landscape before departing for Ben's Porch, the clubhouse or, in an ideal world, the first tee again!
Sand Hills is a magical place and I feel privileged to have been given a chance to experience it.
Zoomed in View from Dune behind 17th Tee
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUZGmtz8j0I/AAAAAAAAD38/_vUFEXG_MYc/s1600/18A.jpg)
Tee Shot from Back Tees
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUZGmKgzH2I/AAAAAAAAD30/pCi5EARt1EE/s1600/18B.jpg)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUZGl70SMlI/AAAAAAAAD3s/RGlDbwSTEAc/s1600/18D.jpg)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUZGli71evI/AAAAAAAAD3k/RCPS1Ns2kro/s1600/18S.jpg)
Tee Shot from Middle Tees
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUZGlQ299eI/AAAAAAAAD3c/wVQg_KhFAqE/s1600/18V.jpg)
View from Beginning of Fairway
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUZGUOy9mcI/AAAAAAAAD3U/Cp4_G2PuWAY/s1600/18F.jpg)
View from Left Side of Fairway
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUZGTuyvdmI/AAAAAAAAD3M/1f9s4T9bUL0/s1600/18G.jpg)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUZGTdqK8oI/AAAAAAAAD3E/ia4p3DBSfdA/s1600/18J.jpg)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUZGTGOWQsI/AAAAAAAAD28/fmLsnV52HM4/s1600/18Y.jpg)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUZGSyCMoKI/AAAAAAAAD20/LmbdySkyxEk/s1600/18Z.jpg)
Middle of Fairway
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUZGEYQrtCI/AAAAAAAAD2s/9pv_d_tlKG0/s1600/18L.jpg)
The Iconic Windmill
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUZGEP7BHdI/AAAAAAAAD2k/PPTfSML5WKE/s1600/18K.jpg)
View from Behind Green, Looking Back down Fairway
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUZGDyevDaI/AAAAAAAAD2c/efZjVP_0vKM/s1600/18Z2.jpg)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUZGDV9cHBI/AAAAAAAAD2U/dgbX3PF_4NE/s1600/18M.jpg)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TUZGDa0JYfI/AAAAAAAAD2M/qxGKOc85OVY/s1600/18Z5.jpg)
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I'll conclude by throwing up some bonus, off-course photographs:
The Gates to Golfing Heaven?
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/THVCRAkPY0I/AAAAAAAADfw/S9sInwYr5YU/s800/entrance1.jpg)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/THVCQ7I8EVI/AAAAAAAADfo/SDdT5bO-LAY/s800/entrance2.jpg)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/THVCQSihGLI/AAAAAAAADfg/pomrBXO-3w4/s800/entrance3.jpg)
Clubhouse
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/THU-ZEPWlSI/AAAAAAAADcw/Qb8QBYSCWOs/s800/clubhouse3.jpg)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/THVBZE0MSLI/AAAAAAAADew/BwVZj20WTis/s800/clubhouse18.jpg)
Pro Shop
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/THVBZ7wP60I/AAAAAAAADfA/Q5TzHed7rLM/s800/clubhouse16.jpg)
Reception Area
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/THVBaEb4OGI/AAAAAAAADfI/lDJMNGM930A/s800/clubhouse15.jpg)
Downstairs Bar
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/THU_XYtZxiI/AAAAAAAADeg/CggIERvSZCQ/s800/clubhouse9.jpg)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/THU--h4_4eI/AAAAAAAADdY/kTvKFPEaU8c/s800/clubhouse8.jpg)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/THU_A5vk-wI/AAAAAAAADdw/BiIcYFvj1zg/s800/clubhouse5.jpg)
The famous shot of the routing map with most of the 136 holes layed out; the 18 actually used are highlighted in darker ink
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/THU_VBlrnXI/AAAAAAAADeI/1YnyNxww-rM/s800/clubhouse12.jpg)
The Cabins
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/THU-bmrehfI/AAAAAAAADdQ/34vRdQUlngU/s800/cabin17.jpg)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/THU-bIbOjqI/AAAAAAAADdI/YMZItnG_wlc/s800/cabin18.jpg)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/THU8d0NdI-I/AAAAAAAADcA/8mIeUkl2hi0/s800/cabin5.jpg)
View from Cabins - Trees!
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/THU83099GdI/AAAAAAAADcg/ymB9ZU_UJKY/s800/cabin7.jpg)
Practice Green Near Ben's Porch
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/TQj4Mjwtk2I/AAAAAAAADiI/tMkhGs3qcNs/s800/June2010%2B546.jpg)
Ben's Porch
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/THVCQKJufWI/AAAAAAAADfY/CdWq5B5-2wk/s800/June2010+383.jpg)
The visionary himself, Dick Youngscap, with fellow GCA'er Harris Nepon on the right
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/THVDkOu_NpI/AAAAAAAADgA/veVg6Km2FV8/s800/June2010+553.jpg)
Heading Home
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_7Ukm-B3o-WI/THVDjrMy5gI/AAAAAAAADf4/Az2u_Tq8wrg/s800/June2010+558.jpg)
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Thanks for taking us along for the ride, Matt. Very, very good thread. Next Tuesday I'll get to experience SH for myself, and threads like this make it all the more special (if that can even be so!) to play a golf course like SH for the first time.
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I have been on GCA for years now, and rarely post, as I just can't seem to find the time you guys have to monitor all that goes on here.
I just got back from Sand Hills, though, and this thread is a magnificent travelogue to that amazing course.
The pictures just can't capture the wind, though.
Just an incredible experience and story to this place.
My own pictures are not back yet- when they are, if they have anything to add, I may figure out how to post some of them.
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The last time I was there was in '06, what is the new building next to Ben's Porch?
Jason
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The last time I was there was in '06, what is the new building next to Ben's Porch?
Jason
Jason,
Those are the washrooms - where would they have been before?
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The last time I was there was in '06, what is the new building next to Ben's Porch?
Jason
Jason,
Those are the washrooms - where would they have been before?
I"m with Jason - I was there last summer and don't recall that building either. I'm sure Gene can fill us in.
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Well done Matt. Your photo and commentary goes up there in the HOF for informative and enjoyable topics. We've had many SHGC threads and photos over the years, and they are all wonderful, particularly to see the unbridled enthusiasm of new folks who have recently experienced the magical place that SHGC is in the golf universe and share what they experienced.
The newest offering in the sand hills is up and running. But, there is magic in these reoccuring posts reexamining the seminal place and idea that gave rise to the rest.
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The last time I was there was in '06, what is the new building next to Ben's Porch?
Jason
Jason,
Those are the washrooms - where would they have been before?
I"m with Jason - I was there last summer and don't recall that building either. I'm sure Gene can fill us in.
Bathrooms, ice machine, storage.
The old bathrooms were removed to provide more seating for those breaking for lunch. Additional room and more seating was also created between the two buildings.
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I'm finally getting around to this thread and there's just so much to digest that I'm kind of stumped for words.
But I do want to thank Matt for sharing. This has been a really cool thread. Especially since for most of us, this is about as close as we'll ever get to this place.
Even better has been the opportunity to have this thread at the same time as the RC thread.
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Thanks for sharing your pics and memories Matt, I know a tour of this size takes a lot of time and effort - and yours is appreciated. Thanks also to all the others who chimed in with thoughts etc about Sand Hills.
The scale of the place looks absolutely remarkable.
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Sorry this post is so long….
Sand Hills Golf Club was everything I head read about, and then some. I have to say that I was able to enjoy it with two GCA.com ‘ers (Mac Plumart, Eric Smith), and one former GCA.com ‘er (John Kavanaugh). What a great time. As much as they had played before meeting me at SH, they were very upbeat, gracious, welcoming, and fun to golf with. We had some laughs, talked golf and life, did a bit of beard pulling, and enjoyed each other’s company. What more can you ask for. And, before I get to the golf course, and as great as it is, I must mention the staff at SH. Everyone treated us so well, even though we weren’t playing with a member, and it was hard to believe that EVERYONE could be so nice and accommodating. That meant a lot.
We played in ideal weather the first day, with the morning round in almost dead calm. There was a light breeze in the afternoon, but not too bad. We played early the next morning and again had ideal weather. The course was firm, fast, but the greens were receptive and rolled very true. Conditions were ideal.
The course was everything it was cracked up to be. I had read so much, including all I could on GCA.com, and I was not disappointed. I think from the moment you come around the corner and near Ben’s Porch, you know you are in a special place. For me, however, the “size” and openness of the property did not awe me, for I see that almost daily where I live. It was the contrast between the sand hills, the expanse of the course, and the ribbons of green throughout the sand hills that struck me. As I drove to SH, I thought many times, how and where do you start on designing a course in this landscape, and that is why, perhaps, C and C first routed 136 holes on the property! I sat on the Porch and ran through most holes in my mind, and had fun trying to figure out which was which (as it looks much different at ground level as opposed to photos). Now, a little more about that golf course…
No. 1. Is, as most have said, a great opening hole. For our first round, we played the Square tee. The bunkers frame the shot, and allow for a couple of options. You can go over the left bunker, or try to go right of it, but that might bring in the right bunker. I loved that about the tee shot. Also, the second shot says “layup” but you really want to go for it. I layed up, and still didn’t have an easy shot to the tiered green. This is because of a the significant false front requiring a precise third shot. What a start to a great course.
No. 2. Fun tee shot, let’s you hit it where you want. We played the course with the pin in the upper right side, on a ridge. I first thought this green was a bit “goofy” but on playing it the second time decided it was in fact a great green. This green has a huge false front that will repel any poorly struck shot.
No. 3. Just a really tough par 3. Takes a good tee shot, but there are options here for hitting past the pin, and letting it come back (where a front pin) and for some interesting putts when a back pin. This green is huge, and can probably play 3 to 4 clubs different depending on pin placement.
No. 4. Just a tough, great par 4. The hole played fairly long on both days, and the second shot has to be precise, and for me that was with a long iron or a hybrid. You can’t get too cute with the shot and play it left, or you end of in that massive bunker. But, if you go too far right, it falls off the side leaving a difficult pitch. Requires two well struck shots, and I think it’s a great, world class, hole.
No. 5. A good hole from the square tees, as the bunker in the middle of the fairway isn’t really in play. A good tee shot leaves a short iron, to what appears to be a fairly straightforward green. It does, however, have a bit of movement to it, as a spine runs right down the middle and I never read a putt correctly on this green. From the back tee, the bunker surely is in play, and it appears the best option for coming into this green is from the left, however, we seemed to hit it from all over the fairway!
No. 6. Tough par 3 that plays same distance from both square/diamond tee. The huge mound in the middle of the green is definitely in play. Just hitting this green is not good enough, as the green has lots of slope and two putting will be difficult it out of position. A par is a good score on this one.
No. 7. The first of the two awesome back to back short par 4s. No matter what anyone said about not going into the front left bunker, I pulled it into the front left bunker!! I did escape with a par as I made a long put. I had asked at some point whether this was reachable with a big, high draw, and think it would take the biggest hitter and the most precise shot. I think the slope in the right front of the green would not allow it. A well placed tee shot still does, however, allow for a short iron into a small, well protected green. Great hole.
No. 8. Loved this hole and the bunker smack dab in front of the green. The first day we played the hole was cut right behind the green, maybe on about 5 paces. Made for some interesting second shots. Can be reached by the long hitters, but still not a guarantee of three.
No. 9. Tee shot can be played farther left than it appears from the tee, and this hole from Ben’s Porch looks much different than it does while even in the fairway. I didn’t think the huge “spine” in the middle of the fairway came into play, but this green was hard to hit. I had trouble with choosing the right club and holding this green. A shot to the left side that doesn’t stay on the green will roll quite a ways down the slope to the left.
No. 10. I like the tee shot and again, how it is framed by the bunkers both left and right. This hole has a collection area where most tee shots end up (I think, whether right or left side of fairway). The second shot can be played farther left than it appears, and most shots on the left side with find, or come close to finding, the green. If far enough down the fairway, the second shot is blind. The bunker on the right side is deep, so stay out of it. I liked this green quite a bit.
No. 11. Liked this hole for the options it presents off the tee. It screams layup, but there is so much slope on the right front off the green that it is better, IMHO, to be closer for a good second shot. Flirting with clearing the left bunker isn’t worth it, as shots in there may never be found! Definitely need an extra club or two to get up and over the front portion of the green. You are then faced with flattish, but somewhat quick from front to back, green!
No. 12. No 12 is a shorter par 4, with a second shot that must avoid the greenside bunker. We hit short irons into this hole, and with a good shot, you can find a birdie. But, No. 13 is a whole different story.
No. 13. What a tough, uphill par 3. Takes a very well struck shot to hold the green, and any ball that comes up short will roll back down the front. If the green is hit and held, then a two putt is manageable. But, this green takes a lot of club, and if any wind at all, a real beast!
No. 14. Very good par 5 with a wide landing area. None of us ever made the “bowl of accomplishment” but with a good drive, the green is reachable in two. A small green, however, with lots of back to front slope, and bunkers on both sides. You have to “miss” in the right spot on this hole, or making par may be very difficult. Long and right is just not good! I suggest finding a birdie here, as 15 is no bargain.
No. 15. Difficult, long par 4. Takes a very good tee shot, then a good second to hit this green. Even then, the putting surface seemed “mounded” and putting was difficult. I think for me, this was the second hardest hole on the course.
No. 16. Very cool par 5, and bunkers down the left dictate how much you can chew off. Take a chance, and have a shorter second, but it you don’t carry it the holes becomes much more difficult. I like how the layup here isn’t “easy” and you still have to pick the right spot. Small, sloping green that is manageable with a wedge. Any other iron will be tough to get it close (with a front pin, anyway).
No. 17. Loved this par 3. Danger left and right, but certainly a big enough green for a well struck shot. I love how the bunkers and vegetation “frame” this hole and in some ways help you set up for the shot.
No. 18. What a finisher. Love the view all the way up the hill to Ben’s Porch. The Windmill, and what a difficult hole. Even with a good drive, there is a long, uphill second shot. Then, the green is very sloped and a small false front must be carried. Just a beast of a hole, if you ask me. I think one of the hardest, but one of my favorites.
For our second round we played the Diamonds, and I really think that is where SH shines. I can’t explain it but it is just a better course from way back. Certainly not easier, but better. I have to think that C and C found the best holes from those back tees, then added upper tees. The flow, the way shots are set up and must be executed, and the overall feeling of standing at the back of one of the greatest courses in the world made that round extra special.
I’ve been asked what is my favorite hole, and that is difficult because SH, IMHO, simply has NO weaknesses. If I had to pick one, it would be No. 8. I just could play that hole all day long. Hardest for me is 18, but after every bogey I wanted to go at it again. Finally, if I had to put a number on it, it has to be a Doak 9 (at least). When can I go again???
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Great times!!! Great times!!!
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu239/mplumart/DSCN25441.jpg)
Also, Tony, great write up. I particularly like this comment..."...the staff at SH. Everyone treated us so well, even though we weren’t playing with a member, and it was hard to believe that EVERYONE could be so nice and accommodating. That meant a lot."
How true that is and how extra special that made the experience.
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Sorry to rain on the parade but the clubhouse and cabins are very forgettable and a let down .... Yes, I know, not the point.
Contrast that to Cape Kidnappers that has compelling and terrific buildings.
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Carl...
I suppose we all look forward to different things in our travels and experiences.
Carl Rogers
Suffolk, Virginia
Profession: Architect (buildings)
Education: Master of Architecture, Tulane
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Carl, I know that you said it is not the point, but I would like to discuss your opinion. You said it was a "letdown" I guess that means you had an idea in your head of how it would be. I have never been to Cape Kidnappers, so maybe you can fill me in?
Without knowing exactly why you were let down, I will tell you why I loved both the cabins and the clubhouse. It seems to me that everything at Sand Hills is understated and defers to the golf course that is so great. While the food is all world( IMO, and if you knew me, you would know I love food!) it is not served in an over the top restaurant. To me it seemed to be a deliberate statement that you did not drive into the middle of nowhere to spend your day getting massages in a spa or sit in an opulent restaurant, you are there to golf.
Same goes for the cabins. You have a bed a TV and a patio. To me, they were telling you to go enjoy the course, the course is the star. We do not need flat screen TVs and a whirlpool tub, we want you to be here for the golf.
FWIW, I feel the same way about their tee markers, sign at the entrance etc.
And finally, yes I love Sand Hills, so read my opinion with the bias it contains.
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We discussed that quite a bit, but it did not take away from my experiences there at all. Is it the nicest clubhouse or accomodations, not by far, but certainly not why I went. Hell, I'd pitch a tent on the entrance road to play there again. ;D
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(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/IMG_2041.jpg)
When in your life, other than Christmas morning, have you ever felt so giddy at 6:00am?
Matt B. nails it in the title of his epic thread: SPECTACULAR.
Tony, it was 2 days I will never forget. Thanks for making it such a great time!
Eric
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(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu239/mplumart/DSCN25441.jpg)
why is the guy with the two hip replacements in better shape than everyone else?
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Nothing has changed from my first experience at The Sand Hills to my last, which was this past weekend.
The place is timeless.
The first time I played it I was alone waiting for friends to arrive from the west coast. I played the first two holes and then...
...stopped.
It was midweek and I was the only one on the course so I put my bag down (no caddies hired there yet) and sat down at the back of the 2nd green.
I simply sat there and gazed at the vast expanse behind this green at what surely must be the edge of this world, completely overcome by what I had just experienced on those first two holes.
I had to allow some time to pass because I knew if the holes were to continue in this fashion that I would in all likelihood be playing the greatest course in the world. I wanted to soak it all in as I didn't know if I would ever be allowed back again or make the trip to this remote locale.
So I sat there for an hour.
I also thought about other things besides golf, assuredly a fine spot for reflection, which highlighted then as it does now the spiritual nature of a visit to the Sand Hills Golf Club.
I continue this practice today, periodically breaking away from the group during post round refreshments, usually as the sun is setting and play a 6 or 9 hole loop, what I term "church nine," walking on the most peaceful ground this earth will offer.
I left three days ago.
And the place haunts me.
It haunted me in exactly the same manner and intensity 14 years ago as it does this very moment.
It haunts me during the winter months.
And when I sleep.
And when I allow my mind to run adrift for a few short moments during the day.
For me it is the most compelling golf course and land on which a golf course rests in the world.
And obviously others feel the same.
I just had someone text me saying June 11th wasn't good for him NEXT year and to PLEASE include him and try to arrange our golfing retreat on any day but that one.
And he is one of many.
One of many who has had a spell cast by some golfing ground in the middle of nowhere.
Gene,
Thank you for the post. There have not been many times I have gotten chills reading a post on GCA.com, but that one did it. Your unequivocal love for the place shines through spectacularly. Spend as much time there during your life as you possibly can.
- George Freeman
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Mr. Plumart, Mr. OHalloran & others that did not appreciate my previous post,
I believe that it has been well documented that C & C went through a large number of possible routing schemes with all the revisions, hair splitting, self doubting and consternation that goes with that quality and quantity of effort. The individuals that shaped the course did the same. The effort more than shows that. The client paid for that. It was worth it. Sand Hills now has an international reputation.
But are the buildings worthy of the course? Example: Shinnecock Hills and Stanford White's Clubhouse on the hill.
I like the understated entry gates and the bent iron logo a lot.
Oddly enough the size and program of the structures are not at issue. What is at issue is the thorough and disturbing lack of imagination and vision. I see 2 options:
Option 1:
Use decidedly regional forms and combine them in a way reminiscent of how towns were initially organized in the West.
Option 2:
Half bury the buildings into the side of the hill(s) to make them as invisible as possible. Shape and bunker the surrounds similar to the course.
Last thought is the severe climate. The building(s) really need to hibernate from October to May.
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(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu239/mplumart/DSCN25441.jpg)
why is the guy with the two hip replacements in better shape than everyone else?
JC, the guy is just a physical specimen! Also, I realize brown is NOT slimming.
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JC & Tony...I am unsure if a "phyiscal specimen" is how I would describe myself. I am sure many on this site have a more proper description for me. ;)
Carl...I appreciated your last post and I meant what I said in my last post. We all value different things in our travels. You are an architect, therefore I assume buildings and architecture are a hot button for you.
Like Tony mentioned, we discussed the housing and dining area at Sand Hills. I'll just say they are Spartan. You say those buildings aren't memorable. I disagree. They were very memorable. I'll never forget opening the door to our cabin and seeing our accomodations. This was especially memorable having just come from Dismal River. People say the Sand Hills is all about the golf. People go there to play 36 or 54 hole days. Well, I can't do that. 18 is my usual...but I'll go 36 every once in awhile...but it wears me down. Given this, I like nice accomodations to chill out in and enjoy.
With that in mind and for the record, I think you are correct. I think that portion of the club could have been done better. I have no expertise in that arena, so I cede to your recommendations.
But even with that taken into account, I still loved the place and the people at Sand Hills.
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Mr. Plumart, Mr. OHalloran & others that did not appreciate my previous post,
I believe that it has been well documented that C & C went through a large number of possible routing schemes with all the revisions, hair splitting, self doubting and consternation that goes with that quality and quantity of effort. The individuals that shaped the course did the same. The effort more than shows that. The client paid for that. It was worth it. Sand Hills now has an international reputation.
But are the buildings worthy of the course? Example: Shinnecock Hills and Stanford White's Clubhouse on the hill.
I like the understated entry gates and the bent iron logo a lot.
Oddly enough the size and program of the structures are not at issue. What is at issue is the through and disturbing lack of imagination and vision. I see 2 options:
Option 1:
Use decidedly regional forms and combine them in a way reminiscent of how towns were initially organized in the West.
Option 2:
Half bury the buildings into the side of the hill(s) to make them as invisible as possible. Shape and bunker the surrounds similar to the course.
Last thought is the severe climate. The building(s) really need to hibernate from October to May.
Wow - I thought the clubhouse and accomodations were just PERFECT. They absolutely FIT what was trying to be done - an understated genuiness. No pretention, and I think they nailed it. They are what the ownership group went with and I think they ABSOLUTELY fit in with the rest of the club. I doubt you'd hear any complaints from any of the 170 or so members.
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Can someone with some insider knowledge answer this for me...how many of the blowouts were just sitting there before the course was built? The reason I ask is I read recently that the only manmade bunker on the entire course was the front bunker on 8. But I seem to recall contrary information to that in threads here many moons ago. What's the real scoop? From my perspective, manmade or not is irrelevant since they all look like they've been there forever.
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Carl, I always appreciate other people's point of view. The fact that we disagree makes the discussion group possible.
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Gentlemen,
Thank you for letting me post.
My previous posts should only be taken in the within the context of SH being in the top 2 or 3 most important courses in the world created in the last 25 years.
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Mr. Plumart, Mr. OHalloran & others that did not appreciate my previous post,
I believe that it has been well documented that C & C went through a large number of possible routing schemes with all the revisions, hair splitting, self doubting and consternation that goes with that quality and quantity of effort. The individuals that shaped the course did the same. The effort more than shows that. The client paid for that. It was worth it. Sand Hills now has an international reputation.
But are the buildings worthy of the course? Example: Shinnecock Hills and Stanford White's Clubhouse on the hill.
I like the understated entry gates and the bent iron logo a lot.
Oddly enough the size and program of the structures are not at issue. What is at issue is the through and disturbing lack of imagination and vision. I see 2 options:
Option 1:
Use decidedly regional forms and combine them in a way reminiscent of how towns were initially organized in the West.
Option 2:
Half bury the buildings into the side of the hill(s) to make them as invisible as possible. Shape and bunker the surrounds similar to the course.
Last thought is the severe climate. The building(s) really need to hibernate from October to May.
Wow - I thought the clubhouse and accomodations were just PERFECT. They absolutely FIT what was trying to be done - an understated genuiness. No pretention, and I think they nailed it. They are what the ownership group went with and I think they ABSOLUTELY fit in with the rest of the club. I doubt you'd hear any complaints from any of the 170 or so members.
Scott, I think that Carl's post brings up an interesting thought. It may be safe to say that Carl is "in the minority (in a good way Carl!)" on GCA with regard to non-golf architecture, just as the rest of us are "in the minority" on a GCA level compared to lush/green, beverage carts, cart gps, waterfall lovers, etc...golfers of the world.
It's all about perspective.
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Carl,
I've been fortunate to be able to experience Sand Hills one time, fairly recently in fact. I can't help but believe that the accommodations are absolutely perfect for the entire experience. Anything more plush would take away from the experience. I'd guess that the vast majority of the people visiting SH have a petty high degree of luxury in their lives. Not that SH is anything like a YMCA, it's far from it, but there's a real value in getting away from an overly comfortable environment and doing a little roughing it every now and then. And if there's gourmet quality food, a comfortable bed, and a shower that'll blast your skin off, that's just dead on for clearing your mind and refreshing you in the way that the creators of the place intended.
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Mr. Madison & Group,
It has been difficult for me to explain myself.
Plush by any definition is the polar opposite of what I am trying to describe.
If the structures harkened back to a regional look and feel back in the pioneer ranching and farming days (when life was a lot lot tougher) is what I am getting at.
I assume that the remoteness of SH means you travel by car from Denver or Omaha. During that journey what did you see?
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Carl...
I think I get you. In fact, here is a copy of what you wrote...
Option 1:
Use decidedly regional forms and combine them in a way reminiscent of how towns were initially organized in the West.
Option 2:
Half bury the buildings into the side of the hill(s) to make them as invisible as possible. Shape and bunker the surrounds similar to the course.
Last thought is the severe climate. The building(s) really need to hibernate from October to May.
Not being into architecture like you are, I simply can not appreciate it like you can and/or see better options like you can. I think it is akin to when we did the GCA golf course design contest awhile back. I tried to do it, but couldn't see green sites, routing options, etc. just from a topo map. However, Tom Doak said he could...which is to be expected I guess since he is one of the great golf course architects.
You are a building architect. You can see things that, perhaps, many of us can't. I think you are correct that the buildings there could have been done better. I don't have the expertise to say how it could have been done better, I just felt like the buildings didn't fit the greatness of the course. Which you touched on.
I think your ideas make sense, but I have a tough time visualizing them. Perhaps others have this issue as well.
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Matt,
Thanks again for this great post. This thread is a real gift to those who haven't had the opportunity to play this magnificent golf course. I haven't played most of the Top 100 courses, like some hereabouts have, but I've played a hefty share and I can honestly say that Sand Hills is my absolute favorite. There's something beguiling about the "discovery" of the place as you approach Mullen. The feeling builds as you drive your cart 3/4 of a mile to the range, which really does look like a range, and then your mind just explodes (hyperbole supplied) when you walk up to the first tee. The excitement meter didn't go down for me until our car had left the sand hills topography and leveled off toward North Platte. Eighteen great holes in a most surprising environment. For me, the fact that it's in the proverbial middle of nowhere elevates the course and the experience to the point that I enjoyed Sand Hills more than I enjoyed Cypress Point.
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Thanks to everyone for their extremely kind and complimentary words both here and in PMs about this thread. I take great delight in the fact that it has generated this much discussion and my entire goal for this exercise was to share what the Sand Hills experience is like for those who haven't played the course while also giving those people who have played it a chance to reminisce.
As anyone who has put together photo reviews for this site knows, it's a lot of work but when you get this much debate and discussion it's worth every minute of effort.
Thanks again to all that participated in the discussion and I truly hope it continues...
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What a great thread, thanks again Matt.
As far as the cabins and clubhouse go, I'd say they are a perfect fit. Given the timing of when they were built and the logistics of building them, I'd like to know who could do any better. I certainly could not.
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Matt,
Your thread is an instant classic and I thank you for the effort. It served as an invaluable roadmap for our recent visit.
I've added below a few photos from the trip.
Thanks again.
Eric
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(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/NEBRASKA/SHDECK.jpg)
Rise and shine.
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/NEBRASKA/MAC1SH.jpg?t=1283450416)
Mac @ 1
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/NEBRASKA/walkto3SH.jpg?t=1283450628)
Strolling towards 3 green.
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/NEBRASKA/IMG_2069.jpg?t=1283447989)
Bunker @ 7
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/NEBRASKA/IMG_2073.jpg?t=1283447897)
Tony @ 7
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/NEBRASKA/IMG_2111.jpg)
8
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/NEBRASKA/IMG_2074.jpg?t=1283448036)
My heroic ;D drive at the 8th -- before three jacking for par :(
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/NEBRASKA/IMG_2118.jpg)
Clouds mimicking bunkers or vice versa?
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/NEBRASKA/IMG_2083.jpg?t=1283448114)
13 green
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/NEBRASKA/KAV1IRON.jpg?t=1283450194)
JakaB's 1 iron at 14
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/NEBRASKA/IMG_2084.jpg?t=1283448301)
Again, clouds and bunkers...amazing really.
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/NEBRASKA/IMG_2092.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/NEBRASKA/IMG_2090.jpg?t=1283448172)
15 green
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/NEBRASKA/IMG_2096.jpg?t=1283448524)
Behind 15 green -- to infinity and beyond. I stood and stared out here during all three rounds.
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/NEBRASKA/IMG_2103.jpg?t=1283448466)
Speaking of clouds....reminded me of Independence Day!
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/NEBRASKA/IMG_2138.jpg)
Blue moon
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/NEBRASKA/IMG_2139.jpg)
Running down the 16th
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/NEBRASKA/IMG_2148.jpg)
Bunkered at the 17th
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/NEBRASKA/IMG_2152.jpg)
17. Short little hole that can deliver a good kick in the shins before the epic finish at 18...
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/NEBRASKA/IMG_2156.jpg)
Perfect finish. I'm out of breath just typing, remembering my dreadful play at this hole -- all three times.
Some odds & ends....
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/NEBRASKA/SANDHILLSFLAG.jpg?t=1283450376)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/NEBRASKA/IMG_2050.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/NEBRASKA/IMG_2173.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/NEBRASKA/IMG_2159.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/NEBRASKA/IMG_2163.jpg?t=1283450135)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/NEBRASKA/IMG_2121.jpg)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/NEBRASKA/SHCABIN.jpg?t=1283450553)
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Matt, Eric and all who have provided pictures - thanks for doing so. SH is my favorite place in all of golf and I never tire of seeing pictures of the place.
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My apologies in advance for resurrecting a thread that is seven and a half years old but Ran's yearly "State of the Union" post got me thinking about some of my old photo threads, especially since I hosted all of my pics on Photobucket in the past but moved away from the site when they started charging for the privilege.
I wanted to avoid having this post purged from the site, as it likely qualifies as my biggest contribution to the site and the comments and discussion that resulted are really quite interesting, including one GCA'er who proclaimed the course to be a "Doak 5" before kindly amending that to a Doak 6! Needless to say, battle lines were drawn!
I've gone and fixed all of my dead photo links in order to save the thread from extinction and allow it to remain in the archives. It's still my favourite course in the world and I think the 14 pages of passionate discussion are worthy of preservation.
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Matt,
Thanks for updating the photos. It's a time consuming process.
I can't remember reading this thread, and I'm looking forward to spending some time with it!
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Matt,
Thanks for updating the photos. It's a time consuming process.
I can't remember reading this thread, and I'm looking forward to spending some time with it!
My sentiments exactly. Looking forward to going through the entire thread. Thank you!
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If you're looking for a little more Sand Hills immersion, give The Fried Egg podcast interview with Supervisor Kyle Hegland a listen: http://www.friedegg.co/podcasts/episode-52-kyle-hegland (http://www.friedegg.co/podcasts/episode-52-kyle-hegland)
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Thanks for the link Morgan. A great listen. We're lucky to have Jared Kalina at our club, who worked with Kyle for a few years at Sand Hills. These guys get it.
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Matt I cannot thank you enough for the incredible photos and descriptions you gave us on Sand Hills. Your effort is truly a work of art for me! Wonderful photos and descriptions of every hole giving me chills and actual tears streaming down my face near the end of your work!
I have been very fortunate in my golf life to play many of the very best courses in this country and across the pond, but nothing has ever been seared into my heart like Sand Hills has since those wonderful 3 days in 1997. We arrived on Sunday at noon and walked 36 that afternoon, walked 54 on Monday and only 18 before departing. What a journey!!!!!!!!!! It forever changed my golf life. And, we all new that we made a huge mistake by leaving for our homes in Texas and California and not playing until dark. We should have played all day.
I do know for a fact that many who play there simply do not GET IT! My group of friends did get it and as we thanked Jim Kidd, head professional, my voice cracked a bit and he told us that {You guys get it). Sand Hills is much more than just a golf course. It is one of the most incredible pieces of land on this earth and thank the Lord that Bill and Ben were the men who nurtured this magnificent golf course to life.
I kindly thank you for this post and the amazing thoughtfulness you put into it. I hope we meet someday and even better, at Sand Hills. You have brought alive those incredible days for me and I will always be grateful! After the 13 hour drive home that Tuesday night I got in the shower and cried like a baby. Not much else in this life has made that happen.
Thank you Matt
Chris Sorenson
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Matt I cannot thank you enough for the incredible photos and descriptions you gave us on Sand Hills. Your effort is truly a work of art for me! Wonderful photos and descriptions of every hole giving me chills and actual tears streaming down my face near the end of your work!
I have been very fortunate in my golf life to play many of the very best courses in this country and across the pond, but nothing has ever been seared into my heart like Sand Hills has since those wonderful 3 days in 1997. We arrived on Sunday at noon and walked 36 that afternoon, walked 54 on Monday and only 18 before departing. What a journey!!!!!!!!!! It forever changed my golf life. And, we all new that we made a huge mistake by leaving for our homes in Texas and California and not playing until dark. We should have played all day.
I do know for a fact that many who play there simply do not GET IT! My group of friends did get it and as we thanked Jim Kidd, head professional, my voice cracked a bit and he told us that {You guys get it). Sand Hills is much more than just a golf course. It is one of the most incredible pieces of land on this earth and thank the Lord that Bill and Ben were the men who nurtured this magnificent golf course to life.
I kindly thank you for this post and the amazing thoughtfulness you put into it. I hope we meet someday and even better, at Sand Hills. You have brought alive those incredible days for me and I will always be grateful! After the 13 hour drive home that Tuesday night I got in the shower and cried like a baby. Not much else in this life has made that happen.
Thank you Matt
Chris Sorenson
Reading this post has shaken me to my emotional core. Not even Titantic or Old Yeller has had this type of effect and I’m currently back in bed with a half gallon of Friendly’s Rocky Road and a beach towel to dry my tears. People think golf is just a silly game but in the end it just tears your heart out. First Kylie Kardashian having her baby this week and now this. It’s just too much.
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Tim, thanks for bringing back to reality. Your thought will have me laughing for months!!!!!!
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Tim, thanks for bringing back to reality. Your thought will have me laughing for months!!!!!!
Chris-Thanks for taking it in the spirit it was intended. I hope you get a chance to get back out there soon. :)