Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Padraig Dooley on July 01, 2010, 06:30:06 PM
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A couple of months ago an architect, we'll call him Mr. A, rang me up at the club. I thought I'd relay the brief conversation we had, without giving any details on the people involved, as I found it quite entertaining on the day.
Mr. A: It that PD?
PD: Yes
Mr. A: I'm Mr. A, I'm a golf course architect.
Mr. A: I hear you are looking to do some work on the Golf Course.
PD: Yes
Mr A: I would like to tender for the work.
PD: We have already chosen the architect and now are looking at contractors for the work, approval for the work and then will finalise the contractor after getting approval.
Mr. A: It's unusual that you haven't tendered for the Architect.
PD: We have a long relationship with (the Architecture Firm) and are very happy with them.
Mr. A: I think you are making a big mistake not tendering for the Architect.
PD: We felt as we have such a good relationship with (the Architecture Firm) and since they have a very good body of work we didn't need to look elsewhere.
Mr. A: I think you are making a big mistake going with (the Architecture Firm)
PD: I don't think XGC (here in Ireland) and YGC (halfway around the world) think they made a mistake.
Mr. A: XGC think they have made a mistake.
PD: I think they're very happy
Mr. A: YGC think they have made a mistake.....
I was about to ask him who he knew in YGC when the phone line went dead and he didn't ring back.
What I found entertaining was, how did he think that arguing with me and telling me that we had made a mistake in choosing our architect would lead to him getting work from us?
I knew who he was from the start of the conversation, he would never have come close to a shotlist of candidates for the job. I was, however, interested in what he would have had to say. As the conversation progressed, I was also interested in having a bit of a debate, but alas it was cut short.
Around the same time another couple of architects called expressing an interest in the job but as soon as they heard an architect was already chosen, they recinded their interest.
Why would this guy have kept on arguing? I found out shortly afterwards that our chosen firm were brought in to clean up some mistakes he had made. But badmouthing another firm to potential clients won't lead to too many employment opportunities?
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Is Hawtree the firm you're using?
http://www.hawtree.co.uk/HT_News.aspx?Page=3
So... now we just have to work out whose "mistakes" Hawtree has been altering and we know our man!
I'll hazard a guess that YGC is on the Melbourne Sandbelt?
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Scott
I'm not going to reveal any names, but you could be on the right track and YGC could be in the Southern Hemisphere!!!
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Interesting that Hawtree says they are going to do some work on the Broadway Golf Course, a lovely but relatively undistinguished course at the top of the Cotswold escarpment above the Vale of Eavesham. There are some terrific holes, especially on the older front nine, including some that run along the escarpment with amazing views.
It was, and purely by coincidence as I had brought no clubs and was a simple Cotswold tourist, my first course played in the UK. Hopefully Sean Arble will keep an eye on the work for us.
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Padraig,
As a golf course is a collection of people with different opinions, it is often difficult to get a consensus opinion.
There would be plenty of people, however, associated with YGC who believe that the club made a big mistake.
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Padraig,
As a golf course is a collection of people with different opinions, it is often difficult to get a consensus opinion.
There would be plenty of people, however, associated with YGC who believe that the club made a big mistake.
Sure David, you will always find people who are unhappy when changes are made, but I just used YGC in this example as I felt Mr A. would know very few people there and I would be able to find out the concensus opinion without too much trouble.
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I just used YGC in this example as I felt Mr A. would know very few people there
I like it :)
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Padraig, with due respect, what is the purpose of this thread? I've a few comments, but I'd like you to answer that basic question first. I hope that the line doesn't go dead.
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Padraig, with due respect, what is the purpose of this thread? I've a few comments, but I'd like you to answer that basic question first. I hope that the line doesn't go dead.
Ronald, the purpose of the thread is why would an architect argue with someone he was looking to work for? Why would he tell them they were making a mistake without even knowing what was being suggested for the course?
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That is what I was hoping to read from you. Those are salient questions that take the physical architecture back to the personal...how it got there and what drove the architect to make it so. My concern was with the high school-ish way of dangling "you might be"s out there.
Desperation in desperate times makes us react precipitously...there was a recent thread on Geoff Shackleford's site whereby the golf director of an esteemed private club took offense to something that GS had written and countered too quickly, without taking the time to revisit his words. They came across as agrammatical and adolescent. I didn't want that to happen to this thread.
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PD,
I agree with you that there is no point in arguing with a potential client as a sales tool. For that matter, there is no good to be had in bad mouthing the competition either. I think that his happening more in this economy though. At least, the last couple of big jobs I got, the owners specifically mentioned that my team was the only one NOT to bad mouth the competition and it was a factor in our hiring.
Over the years, I have always found that there is really little point in even trying to push your way in for even an interview if they are reluctant. They always have some kind of preconcieved views on who they want, and it is rare (although not unheard of) that salesmanship can change their minds.
That said, all gca's are human and need to sell projects on a regular basis to survive and support families. Thus, sometimes we make mistakes and push too hard. From the sounds of it, this instance is just one of those times where the gca pushed just a little too hard, less as a regular and more of a new to this economy technique. Believe me, the gca's and clients on this board could probably share worse stories of "Architects Behaving Badly". Hey, a new reality show is born! ;D
In the end, the projects I sell are the ones where they have a somewhat favorable impression of my previous work, and where I spend 100% of my sales time trying to show them how good I can make their project. It is SO tough out there that even 1% negativism can kill a presentation of our services. And, with the beat downs most of us get in the whole process, it is a natural human tendency to be at least a little negative! :-[
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When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro...
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"One difference between a successful person and an average person is how much criticism they can take." - Robert Kiyosaki ;D
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"One difference between a successful person and an average person is how much criticism they can take." - Robert Kiyosaki ;D
Dam....according to that I should be in gravy land instead of looking for work!
Sounds good Robert...but that's about it.
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Ha - yes, Paul, a lot of pithy and succinct statements "sound good, but that's about it".
Maybe with Twitter that's all people can manage these days. (Hey - I just did the same thing!!)
Re the fellow who called Padraig - I assume there was no rhyme nor reason for what he was saying...just a guy who really needs the work and is feeling the pressure. Ugh.
Peter
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Peter:
I wouldn't just subscribe it to the tough economy. It is a small, competitive business full of massive egos, and there has always been a great deal of pettiness, thin skin, talking out of school, etc.
The other funny thing about it is that though many were offended by The Confidential Guide -- and some still are -- most defend their criticisms of other architects as being fair on the grounds that there are no real critics to call their competitors to account. And, that's true. When an architect is doing bad work it often takes a LOT of time for word to get around, if it ever does.
At the same time, there are a few guys out there outside the societies going WAY over the line to tarnish others and promote themselves.
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I'd love to know what kind of personality you must have to call someone up, badmouth them, their colleagues, their decision processes, their collective assessment capabilities, their integrity and the work of FELLOW PROFESSIONALS and then EXPECT them to welcome you with open arms into a business relationship. Holy Kee-rap.
Padraig, call the guy back and refer him to his local FE College - Marketing 101 Course.
Is this gifted professional a member of EIGCA perchance? Maybe a call to them might help put him on the right path...
cheers,
FBD.
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Thanks, Tom. I learned 4 new things from your post -- three of them came as a big surprise to me, and at least one of those deserves its own thread. But I don't think I'll start it...
Peter
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This case sounds over the top - as the hired architect and club are very familiar with each other and seem to both be qualified professionally.
There are a number of potential clients that have no idea how to hire an architect and are completely unaware of architecture or even what it means to play golf.
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Stories like this remind me of one of my few acquired wisdoms after 19 years
un self-employed. People can experience the same exact conversation and come away with completely different recollections as to what actually occurred. It never ceases to amaze me how many times I've been in meeting with future clients and walked out with completely different reads of the meeting as my business partner at the time.
And I say this as someone who is routinely WRONG in his recollection. I am flat-out lousy at reading people in live meetings.
So maybe a little reflection is in order. Maybe the conversation was not as clear-cut as remembered. Or maybe the person from the losing firm was just a bit more driven by emotion than reason. Who knows? Only those involved. There's a reason hearsay is generally disregarded in court.
Best of luck to everyone involved.
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I'd love to know what kind of personality you must have to call someone up, badmouth them, their colleagues, their decision processes, their collective assessment capabilities, their integrity and the work of FELLOW PROFESSIONALS and then EXPECT them to welcome you with open arms into a business relationship. Holy Kee-rap.
Padraig, call the guy back and refer him to his local FE College - Marketing 101 Course.
Is this gifted professional a member of EIGCA perchance? Maybe a call to them might help put him on the right path...
cheers,
FBD.
Martin
I don't think he is a member of EIGCA, he's been around a long enough time, so maybe the old dog and new tricks might apply.
I'd guess one of the main points of the thread is that we all have our own personal biases and that we have to strive to overcome them and take each individual case on it's merits.
The funny thing is that even as Mr. A was critical of our choice of architect and would never have gotten us to change our minds, if he had wanted to come to the course, I would have toured around with him and listened to his thoughts.
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Peter:
I wouldn't just subscribe it to the tough economy. It is a small, competitive business full of massive egos, and there has always been a great deal of pettiness, thin skin, talking out of school, etc.
The other funny thing about it is that though many were offended by The Confidential Guide -- and some still are -- most defend their criticisms of other architects as being fair on the grounds that there are no real critics to call their competitors to account. And, that's true. When an architect is doing bad work it often takes a LOT of time for word to get around, if it ever does.
At the same time, there are a few guys out there outside the societies going WAY over the line to tarnish others and promote themselves.
Tom,
I think it happens within the societies also.... ;)
MWY
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But overall Golf architecture is the wild west when it comes to selling....most guys that get pissed and try to come in after a decision were late in the first place.....
The funny thing to watch i in this business is the guy with 3 or 4 degrees..a bunch of pictures....resume of working for big firm....no talent and no ability to sell...they basically say "it's not fair"
But clubs need to remember it is a complex sale also....for instance an architect that does his own construction will be lambasted by larger general contractors and architects that just draw and oversee....and that construction firm will also make sure they only recommend architects that will recommend them....so many economical deals go by the wayside....
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Padraig, This does not surprise me at all. I'll add this entertaining experience.
Having a wonderful dinner at one of Cabo's finest restaurants with an unnamed architect, his design associate, a well respected golf writer and our CEO.
The topic turns to future golf courses at our resort for which the architect would like to be considered. We disuss the concept and the routing that had been presneted by a top associate of a well known design firm with no guarantee that this firm would get the job.
Upon hearing that the routing was complete and after a wonderful appetizer the architect turns to our CEO and with some strong emotion states "you would have to be a f-ing idiot to hire INSERT WELL KNOWN for your next course."
The reply was perhpas more kind than it should have been and noted that nobody had been hired based on the routing to which angry architect responds "who the hell is INSERT ROUTING GUY NAME? Did he ever win the INSERT MAJOR CHAMPIONSHIP WON BY ANGRY ARCHITECT?"
Once again slightly less polite yet still professional and hoping that the miain course would not end up being used for purposes other than eating, the response was that while the routing guy may not have won a major championship he was nonethless a fine golfer in his own right and a rather well respected person in the industry and someone for whom we had a great amount of respect for.
Amazing dinner to say the least and not one I wish to experience again. By the way outside this dinner I have found angry architect to be quite entertaining and quite the eloquent speaker, but passionate to a fault if that is possible.
Routing guy posts here semi-frequently and should get a good laugh from my telling of this story even though one of his protege's was subjected to the dinner scene in his role as the Design Associate for angry architect.
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Nice story, Greg,
and once again marvellous evidence why this industry is FUBB.
I love Major winners, cos they know everything. Aren't we such lucky people to be allowed to be among the Gods.
yes,
FBD.
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Padraig, This does not surprise me at all. I'll add this entertaining experience.
Having a wonderful dinner at one of Cabo's finest restaurants with an unnamed architect, his design associate, a well respected golf writer and our CEO.
The topic turns to future golf courses at our resort for which the architetc would like to be considered. We disuss the concept and the routing that had been presneted by a top associate of a well known design form with no guarantee that this firm would get the job.
Upon hearing that the routing was complete and after a wonderful appetizer the architect turns to our CEO and with some strong emotion states "you would have to be a f-ing idiot to hire INSERT WELL KNOWN for your next course."
The reply was perhpas more kind than it should have been and noted that nobody had been hired based on the routing to which angry architect responds "who the hell is INSERT ROUTING GUY NAME? Did he ever win the INSERT MAJOR CHAMPIONSHIP WON BY ANGRY ARCHITECT?"
Once again slightly less polite yet still professional, hoping that the miain course would not end up being used for purposes other than eating, the response was that while the routing guy may not have won a major championship he was nonethless a fine golfer in his own right and a rather well respected person in the industry and osomeone for whom we had a great amount of respect for.
Amazing dinner to say the least and not one I wish to experience again. By the way Ioutside this dinner I have found angry architect to be quite entertaining and quite the eloquent speaker, but passionate to a fault if that is possible.
Routing guy posts here semi-frequently and should get a good laugh from my telling of this story even though one of his protege's was subjected to the dinner scene in his role as the Design Associate for angry architect.
Greg...was I there at dinner? Sometimes tequilla gives me blackouts.
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You guys sound like a bunch of girls at lunch! Padraig, enough already, just name the architect and get on with your humiliation of him. I don't think his actions are any worse than yours with starting this thread.
To be honest Kelly I don't want to name the architect. It never was my intention to humililate. The reason behind the thread was to discover possible reasons as to why he would criticise another architect without even knowing what was being suggested.
We all have our own personal biases, I have been avoiding playing a nearby course after hearing quite a few poor reports on it but shouldn't I really go, play it and make my own judgement rather then saying I heard bad reports on the course when it comes up in conversation.
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shouldn't I really go, play it and make my own judgement rather then saying I heard bad reports on the course when it comes up in conversation.
Padraig:
As of now you have what the politicians call "plausible denial". If you go and see for yourself, you will have to have an opinion!
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shouldn't I really go, play it and make my own judgement rather then saying I heard bad reports on the course when it comes up in conversation.
Padraig:
As of now you have what the politicians call "plausible denial". If you go and see for yourself, you will have to have an opinion!
Tom
It's much more fun to have an opinon rather than sitting on the fence, now whether the opinion will be informed is a whole other ball game (to throw in another cliche!)
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I think its interesting to note that the ASGCA's code of ethics proscribes against maligning fellow GCArchs in the course of competing for a job....under penalty of removal from the Society.
I feel this is a good thing....even if it exists only in theory at times.
At least it sets a high standard.
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Paul:
That may be what the code says, but we both know that it isn't always enforced. Heck, Mr. Nicklaus is IN PRINT saying that I don't understand golf well enough to design a great course ... have you taken action against him yet?
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I think its interesting to note that the ASGCA's code of ethics proscribes against maligning fellow GCArchs in the course of competing for a job....under penalty of removal from the Society.
I feel this is a good thing....even if it exists only in theory at times.
At least it sets a high standard.
From what I have seen and heard I would suggest that the code of ethics for the ASGCA should be limited to one statement... "Do whatever you feel is necessary to get the job"...
Sorry but that has been my experience and certainly not limited ot the dinner story above.
Paul Cowley; I think you were at the restaurant that evening, not at our table but perhaps at another along with Pete Rose and his entourage that incuded several young ladies that prmpted me to change seating arrangements at our table. ;)
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Tom....I should have been more specific in that the code proscribes against demeaning fellow MEMBER GCArchs of the Society....and as a non member you don't qualify to take action against Mr Nicklaus.
But as always I would be proud and pleased to sponsor you for membership in the ASGCA....pretty please!...with sugar on top! ;)
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thanks Greg....you sometimes I get a feeling that I have another very interesting life that I'm really not aware of. ;)
Happy Forth and I hope you and all are well south of the border.
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Tom....I should have been more specific in that the code proscribes against demeaning fellow MEMBER GCArchs of the Society....and as a non member you don't qualify to take action against Mr Nicklaus.
But as always I would be proud and pleased and to sponsor you for membership in the ASGCA....pretty please!...with sugar on top! ;)
Oh my! From my experience that would eliminate 75% of the topics of conversation brought up by architects pitching their services though there are a few very distinguished exceptions, most very popular here on GCA.
Does anyone really believe they can land a gig by telling the money people how bad sos and so is or how so and so will maybe never step foot on your property?????? Apparently so.
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thanks Greg....you sometimes I get a feeling that I have another very interesting life that I'm really not aware of. ;)
Happy Forth and I hope you and all are well south of the border.
Wasn't you? Too bad the "other Paul Cowley" looked to be having a great time while we were being spoken to as though we were 5 year olds who would not stop soiling themselves.
Funny, I had actually forgotten today was the 4th!
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Paul:
Apparently my own code of ethics is a bit stricter than ASGCA's, as mine applies the same to everyone.
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....mine too.
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I think its interesting to note that the ASGCA's code of ethics proscribes against maligning fellow GCArchs in the course of competing for a job....under penalty of removal from the Society.
I feel this is a good thing....even if it exists only in theory at times.
At least it sets a high standard.
Paul,
Has anyone ever been removed for such?
how u durin? ;)
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Mike....don't know....paging Jeff Brauer...he should have something to say I'm sure.
But I'm glad it's in there....even if its not effective!
As for what I'm durin the past 5 months;
Recently lost a 9 holer in Montana to Johnny Miller.
Applied for and was accepted by BP for an oil cleanup job in LA....went there and got accreditation...but nothing materialized...and went home.
Have been accepted for two equipment operator jobs on golf courses...but waiting for the go ahead.
Doing misc. land planning for jobs that aren't going anywheres soon both here and abroad!
Planted and harvesting my largest garden in decades....but you know that my Face book friend!
Strange times indeed!
How about you my friend?
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Paul,
Still have some scraps working but am working on my Fa Tass clothing line and started to manage some courses. And am now doing more male modeling than usual....email me when you have time....may have an idea...MWY
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....oh, and am filing a patent for the treatment and cure of Rosacea this week....this has been in the works for three years, just didn't get serious til the times got weird....come on down and see me and listen to Bill. Bring cash.
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PC,
To be honest, I don't think anyone has ever been thrown out of ASGCA for that clause specifically. But truthfully, some guys have been called on the carpet, had official hearings, etc. and by all accounts, it changed their behavior for the better.
Its often hard to discern exactly what negative things one gca may have said about another. Its not like some young buck goes out and publishes those kinds of things in a book where we can read them in black and white you know! ;)
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thanks jeff....you are the MAN of the asgca....and one of those I heard on the short list for the tejas course...good luck my friend!
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PC,
I'll need it. Working on the dogs and pony right now before heading off to bed.