Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Mike Hendren on June 26, 2010, 10:08:38 AM
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Tony Muldoon's thread asking "Which club would you like to be a member of" got me to thinking. I just recently resigned from the second club I've been a member of, neither of which had a true private club culture which was fine with me. I'm just not a club kinda guy. Never had a regular game. Didn't dine, drink, party or play poker there. Rarely hosted clients. Didn't care of the staff or professional knew me from Adam. None of my closest friends belonged, including members of the reknowned Other Senior Tour.
Don't get me wrong. Clubs are cool and I understand the attraction. I just have little appreciation for the culture.
Can anyone relate?
Mike
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Mike,
I've never belonged to a club, although my Dad did as I was growing up so I'm familiar with that one. I can't say as I have any great desire to join a local club, mainly because I just don't play enough to make the costs worthwhile. Almost all of my golf is travel related--I've played a total of 3 rounds in and around Albuquerque in a year and a half! I probably played 40 rounds overall last year and might only get to around 30 this year.
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I am reminded of the line Woody Allen uses in Annie Hall (one of my favorite movies)--"I would never want to belong to a club that would have someone like me for a member." But I hear what you're saying; country club culture certainly isn't for everyone. Now that I'm a wandering golfer in CT, I have found some of the most tight-knit groupd of golfers at public courses that they just play regularly. It's a fascinating dynamic.
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Mike - interesting: you've belonged to two clubs, but left each time, and without having had the 'experience' I imagine club membership is all about. I'm fifty-fifty on this - I have never been a member anywhere: half of me really likes the idea of having a home club, of supporting ONE course and of being part of ONE long tradition - another link in the chain, as it were; but the other part of me, even though I should be more than old enough not to feel this way, just knows that I would be an outsider there, that I wouldn't belong. Reminds me of a series of entries I read once in Albert Camus' notebooks: in September 1938 or so, he has an entry that reads something like: "I've learned not to expect too much from my fellow men. A nod of recognition; the quiet sharing of a cigarette"; but a few months later, his entry reads: "It's no use. I expect too much from people".
Peter
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No....I cannot relate. The only thing in life I am missing, due to where I have ended up with work, is a golf club membership.
There is nothing better for me than Sunday morning on the putting green with sixteen or twenty good friends, some new friends, drawing for who you will play with. The inside jokes and jabs, the small bets and comraderie. Then afterwards an hour or two in the bar just being lads.
I was a member at a club since I was thirteen and I really appreciate my Dad looking after that for me. Playing with adults, entering club tournaments and playing for the club in matches, going to the annual dinners......it was all character building and somethingi will always cherish.
Obviously it is not for everyone but at present I really miss it and cannot forsee me joining anywhere soon....unless I hit the powerball.
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Tony Muldoon's thread asking "Which club would you like to be a member of" got me to thinking. I just recently resigned from the second club I've been a member of, neither of which had a true private club culture which was fine with me. I'm just not a club kinda guy. Never had a regular game. Didn't dine, drink, party or play poker there. Rarely hosted clients. Didn't care of the staff or professional knew me from Adam. None of my closest friends belonged, including members of the reknowned Other Senior Tour.
Don't get me wrong. Clubs are cool and I understand the attraction. I just have little appreciation for the culture.
Can anyone relate?
Mike
Mike
I know what you mean. I too have quit two clubs I belonged to for reasons I can't quite articulate. Perhaps the explanation of I am not a club kinda guy is the answer. I still belong two other clubs as a country member and that seems to suit me better especially as at one club I have absolutely nothing to do with the club. I just turn up with mates and play maybe six times a year. After nearly 10 years I don't really know any other members and that is fine with me.
Ciao
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"I would never want to belong to a club that would have someone like me for a member."
Tim G. -
I believe Woody Allen was quoting the great Groucho Marx in this instance (and I pretty much agree with what he is saying ;)).
DT
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David, you beat me to it...Tim is so damned young, probably never heard of Groucho Marx and his Communist Manifesto, nor his brothers, Karl, Pepto, Zippo, Kudzu...
Seriously, Mike, I'm in your group! Here's my sitch: parents didn't golf so we didn't belong to a club. I teach and most teachers don't join clubs until they retire and have fat benefits and nothing to do with their time. I love playing the private clubs, but I can't imagine getting caught up in the social circles, the politics nor the pettiness of a private club. I don't have a regular foursome, although guys who write for my web site seem to be able to put up with me long enough to play. Ironically, I play most of my golf with teenagers, as I coach boys in the Fall and girls in the Spring. I can absolutely relate to your feelings.
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I am reminded of the line Woody Allen uses in Annie Hall (one of my favorite movies)--"I would never want to belong to a club that would have someone like me for a member."
Tim, you're probably too young to remember Groucho Marx, who coined that line many years.
By the way, I had a great weekend in Lexington for the Memorial Day wedding party. You go to school in a lovely place.
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Having been a member of the 2nd club Mike references I will chime in with my thoughts. I don't think our club was full of politics, at least from my perspective. I would guess Mike would agree but maybe not. We had mostly a golf club. No pool. No assessments or food minimums. The food was good and there when you needed it but not imposed on you. Plenty of families and walking was ok any time.
I had no friends going into the experience but quickly met an early morning group of walkers and I fit right in. A really good regular group.
I loved it. I recently resigned because I began traveling a lot for work. I have two young boys, one is starting to play golf but probably 4-5 years away from the "big" course.
I quit because I was spending too much on something I use too little. I have enough money to enjoy golf an trips for golf but not enough money to pay someone monthly for something I don't have time to use.
I really want to join a club again someday, perhaps the same one I just left. As I said I love it, but solely for the golf and a small, comfortable group of regular players. Not interested in the politics or the social atmosphere or any of that.
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I'm not a member at the course where I live any more. The bank took over the course a couple of months ago and HMS golf management company is running the club now. The changes that have been made are family unfriendly. The sense of comunity has changed. On friday nights it seems that they want to clubhouse to be a bar insted of a neighborhood gathering.
Anthony
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Mike:
I can certainly relate.
I didn't grow up in a club culture, for one thing ... grew up on a public course, and was keenly aware that my family would have had to wait years to get into a private club even if we'd wanted to. That probably soured me on the idea from the start.
I belong to one of the great courses in the world, and would never think of giving it up, even if I don't use it enough to get a reasonable average green fee. I am happy to pay for the privilege of playing there occasionally. But, I've always acted more like a "country member" as Sean describes; my lifestyle just doesn't allow me to be a part of the club culture even if I wanted to. And even after twenty years, I do feel like a bit of an outsider, as various club policies make it clear that homeowners and family legacy are prioritized over newbies such as me.
If I lived in the UK, I think I would have a different attitude toward it and be a more active member of a club. They seem to be better at inclusion ... holding weekly and monthly competitions on the weekends, for example. Most of American golf is still about a member and his guests, and that's how I tend to use Crystal Downs. But it's a privilege to be able to do that.
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When a club is where you like to hang out on the weekends and hit balls and have lunch during the week, it's great.
If you start calculating your average green fee, it's not great.
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Culture is everything.
In my case, I want a culture that accommodates families, even though it's just me and Laura. I want a club that puts golf first, second, and third. I want a club that charges a fair fee. I want a club where people are friendly and fun and not snooty.
And, to be honest, not having a monthly food minimum is heavenly. My club is a for-profit enterprise, but I can't see spending $9 for a burger when I can get a better tasting one at Five Guys. And I work for a living - I can't afford a $100 dinner more than a few times per year. I really with golf clubs would down-scale their food service.
Fortunately, I found one,but it wasn't easy.
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Mike,
Golf Clubs are like women. A lot of men think they are not the marrying type until they find the right women. And it will happen when you least expect it. you can't try to find the right club. One day you will be open to the idea of settling down and there it is, the perfect club.
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A golf club is the only kind of club I've ever even considered being a member of (as an adult, I mean). My requirements are pretty simple. I have to be able to afford the membership, the golf course has to suit my game, there have to be plenty of members with whom I enjoy playing golf and there needs to be no policies restricting play while walking the course.
Fortunately such a club is available in my area so I'm a member. I have no desire to "join a club" per se, just a desire to play the game with like-minded golfers on a good course. There are no public-golf options that meet my needs, even though our area is quite overbuilt with public courses (and private, for that matter). The main disqualifier is the carts-first business plan at most of them. But that's fine, I like my club and am just as glad not to be tempted into cheaper public alternatives.
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I hear what you are saying Mike. However, here was my experience with my golf club last saturday evening and this morning. Last Saturday evening I took my 5 and 3 year old boys at 5pm, grabbed a cart and played 9 holes. People high fivin’ them, saying here comes the next club champs etc.
This morning, tee off at 645 am, walk 18 holes by 10:15 am. Two weeks ago I played a public course and walked off the 17 hole after 4 hours and 45 minutes.
I did not notice anyone being snooty, I did not notice anyone playing club politics or anyone looking at themselves in the mirror. I am sure there were people acting that way, but that’s their problem. I also did not add up how much any of this cost.
There’s a club out there for everyone.
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I hear what you are saying Mike. However, here was my experience with my golf club last saturday evening and this morning. Last Saturday evening I took my 5 and 3 year old boys at 5pm, grabbed a cart and played 9 holes. People high fivin’ them, saying here comes the next club champs etc.
This morning, tee off at 645 am, walk 18 holes by 10:15 am. Two weeks ago I played a public course and walked off the 17 hole after 4 hours and 45 minutes.
I did not notice anyone being snooty, I did not notice anyone playing club politics or anyone looking at themselves in the mirror. I am sure there were people acting that way, but that’s their problem. I also did not add up how much any of this cost.
There’s a club out there for everyone.
Jason
This is pretty much the club Mike had. I could be wrong but I don't think Mike's post was aimed at the snooty culture and the country club feel because that isn't the way his club worked, at least through my eyes. I think he's just saying that being an independent contractor works better for him hat hitching his cart to one horse.
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I hear what you are saying Mike. However, here was my experience with my golf club last saturday evening and this morning. Last Saturday evening I took my 5 and 3 year old boys at 5pm, grabbed a cart and played 9 holes. People high fivin’ them, saying here comes the next club champs etc.
This morning, tee off at 645 am, walk 18 holes by 10:15 am. Two weeks ago I played a public course and walked off the 17 hole after 4 hours and 45 minutes.
I did not notice anyone being snooty, I did not notice anyone playing club politics or anyone looking at themselves in the mirror. I am sure there were people acting that way, but that’s their problem. I also did not add up how much any of this cost.
There’s a club out there for everyone.
Jason
This is pretty much the club Mike had. I could be wrong but I don't think Mike's post was aimed at the snooty culture and the country club feel because that isn't the way his club worked, at least through my eyes. I think he's just saying that being an independent contractor works better for him hat hitching his cart to one horse.
Good deal.
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I am reminded of the line Woody Allen uses in Annie Hall (one of my favorite movies)--"I would never want to belong to a club that would have someone like me for a member."
Tim, you're probably too young to remember Groucho Marx, who coined that line many years.
By the way, I had a great weekend in Lexington for the Memorial Day wedding party. You go to school in a lovely place.
Gents--
Indeed, I know the great Woody Allen quotes Groucho Marx in the movie; I believe in the movie he says that he's paraphrasing, so I didn't want to assign that exact quote to Groucho. But indeed, you're right; I ought to have been clearer.
Bill--
I'm very glad you enjoyed Lexington when you were there. It's a bummer we weren't able to meet up; hopefully sometime soon.
Cheers.
--Tim
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Bogie Bogie, I understand your pain. I mean you are seeking a golf home in the land of beehive hair, country music, the Tennessee Vols and Jed, Jethro and Jethrine Bodine. I think the GCA world would like to be a Member of Cypress or Augusta National. However one for the most part has to bring their game with them to the grand clubs. I think being a Member of a club where you have a regular game, a good place to practice as well as pleasure of playing whenever you like for the most part. I agree the mindset of a certain element of the Membership can be a bit much at times as well as the politics. I can say without question one of the great pleasures of the last 2 weeks of healing up is hitting a few balls in the evening and catching up with some old friends on the range. I assure you the mindset of a large part my Lafayette club as well as club politics are not the strong parts either.
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Tiger, around here we refer to the beehive hair style as a PHD - Pentecostal HairDo.
Be well, friend.
Bogey
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MH,
I belong to an 80 year old club that has around 800 members.used to be 1000. The last five presidents rarely play golf. The last club manager was an excellent manager and manipulator that positioned the club as a club comparable to larger city clubs in the State. We just took a six million assessment for golf course and clubhouse which had 800 votes and passed by 16( in other words..sway 9 votes and the other side wins).
And all of the above is the problem I see with many clubs thru out the States. The maybe 400 of us that play golf are subsidized by the other 400 who rarely play....the managers all come from food and beverage and thus justify such to an unknowing board....the standard ten to twenty guys who try to run the show and convince the needed votes really have no clue. And in the end you have a nice place....but will these nice places survive the next 20 years in the golf world? I don't know.
At our place there are maybe 20 of us that are core golfers that play every friday afternoon....walking has increased to half the rounds and the club thinks they now need to charge to walk( or something)....I stay a member because it is close by and I can practice there....and around 8 of us always have a game together..but all of us have said we would go elsewhere if we did it as a group and I think one day that will happen.....smaller towns don't have the membership depth once dues reach a soecific point...and that wiil be sooner than later....
AND I blame the PGA for all of this....all over the country.....they allowed CMAA to get a stronghold on American clubs and convince the boards we needed $40,000 pool slides.... ;)
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Mike,
My club just put in a pool slide.
Anthony
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MH,
I belong to an 80 year old club that has around 800 members.used to be 1000. The last five presidents rarely play golf. The last club manager was an excellent manager and manipulator that positioned the club as a club comparable to larger city clubs in the State. We just took a six million assessment for golf course and clubhouse which had 800 votes and passed by 16( in other words..sway 9 votes and the other side wins).
And all of the above is the problem I see with many clubs thru out the States. The maybe 400 of us that play golf are subsidized by the other 400 who rarely play....the managers all come from food and beverage and thus justify such to an unknowing board....the standard ten to twenty guys who try to run the show and convince the needed votes really have no clue. And in the end you have a nice place....but will these nice places survive the next 20 years in the golf world? I don't know.
At our place there are maybe 20 of us that are core golfers that play every friday afternoon....walking has increased to half the rounds and the club thinks they now need to charge to walk( or something)....I stay a member because it is close by and I can practice there....and around 8 of us always have a game together..but all of us have said we would go elsewhere if we did it as a group and I think one day that will happen.....smaller towns don't have the membership depth once dues reach a soecific point...and that wiil be sooner than later....
AND I blame the PGA for all of this....all over the country.....they allowed CMAA to get a stronghold on American clubs and convince the boards we needed $40,000 pool slides.... ;)
Too bad your 20 guys can't buy Longshadow. THAT would be a great home course, and be a golf only club.
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Mike Young - Wow - powerful AND 100% accurate post. I especially like the last sentence.
You said it, brother. Once the CMAA took over, the era of the good golf club started to end. Weddings and banquets became king because the guys running things were nothing but F&B types. We had a GM that never set foot on the golf course, didn't know anything about the super and head pro, and only tried to make our club "the finest dining destination in the county." Thank gawd he's gone now.
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Tiger,
How are you doing?
Yancey
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This thread got me thinking, and I will present a few questions:
So what does it mean for most country clubs when the clubs do not cater to the golfer who really, really like to golf? Can they survive (as Dan H. observed) as being the best destination for food in the county and so forth?
At the average club, what is the percentage of total members that really like golf? 40%? Why are the rest of the people members?
What is the percentage of total members that really like golf at the cream of the crop clubs?
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This thread got me thinking, and I will present a few questions:
So what does it mean for most country clubs when the clubs do not cater to the golfer who really, really like to golf? Can they survive (as Dan H. observed) as being the best destination for food in the county and so forth?
At the average club, what is the percentage of total members that really like golf? 40%? Why are the rest of the people members?
What is the percentage of total members that really like golf at the cream of the crop clubs?
Mike,
IMHO golf clubs changed in the late 1970's....this was about the time that GM's really took hold of things and boards decided they needed to focus more on the business of golf than the golf itself....what I mean by this is that most clubs up until this time had as their primary goal taking care of the members.... Now we rarely see that goal as much as we see clubs taking on debt and setting goals with the object being to bring in more members...... Yet if more clubs were taking care of the prsent memebrs we would not have near the problems we have in golf presently....
Many will disagree and say that clubs would go under if an agressive membership drive was not a constant....I say that in many instances it would be the opposite...clubs would have less debt, better golf and satisifed members in older facilites and cheaper hamburgers....and new memebrs would seek them....
When clubs worked best for golfers...pros owned the shops, carts and made damn sure the members were taken care of....UNTIL we tear down some clubhouses, forget about weddings and large events and lightweight fairway units and scented towels on the practice tee...we have a problem....
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At the average club, what is the percentage of total members that really like golf? 40%? Why are the rest of the people members?
Michael:
At most clubs, it is still the case that many of the older generation are relics of a bygone era, staying a member of the club for reasons of pride and their own beliefs about community and society, and they are willing to keep paying dues for those beliefs as long as the dues don't get out of hand. [They are now getting out of hand.]
The problem for golf is that our generation and those younger than us are not going to blindly pay for club membership the same way we pay for Social Security, expecting that it will all be well worth it when it's our turn to retire. We know the system is in trouble, and the demographics are against us in precisely the same way. That's really why the party is about to be over ... because the other 60% of members who don't use the club so much are going to wise up and stop subsidizing it.
It's different for the "cream of the crop clubs" as you put it ... they shouldn't have a shortage of golfers who want to be members at those, as long as they can manage their finances reasonably. But, the cream is only 10% or so.
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Tom,
Do you really think it is as high as 10%?
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Mike:
I don't know if it's 10%. I would think in every big city, one private club out of 10 stands out; but when you get to smaller towns with 2-5 clubs, I don't know if the percentage goes up, or falls to zero.
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This thread started me thinking. When I was younger, and much poorer, I belonged to a golf club. I was in the Army and I joined the Fort Jackson Golf Club when I was stationed there. For E-5 and below the fees were $15 per month, and then .50 per nine holes. As you advanced in rank you paid more, although it was very affordable. My membership even gave me access to other Air Force and Army base courses. I loved hanging out with everyone at the course, it was a great place to be and I spent ALL my extra time there. Although this arrangement was a killer deal, it wasn't worth staying in the Army to keep it!
Now that I can afford to be a member at a private club, I am not. Mostly because I am on this kick of trying to play 40-50 new courses every year and I enjoy going on 3 or 4 golf trips with my buddies each year. That will soon end as my kids get a bit older and I will be forced to join a club close to the house. All my kids will play and taking 6 to a public course will not be an option. Luckily for me, MOST of the public courses near me won't be missed once I join a club.
I think it all depends on the club and how much at home you feel there. Places like Holston Hills CC (TN) and Columbia CC (SC) immediately come to mind; those are places were I could join, fit right in and be happy playing there and hanging out all the time. I think finding the right club, and nearby is the key.
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Richard,
The real reason we're in a club is because it's cheaper.... You see, my wife and I play all the time, and paying 2 green fees every time was killing us. Let's say you pay $80 - that's $160 per day. Let's play 2 days and you're up to $320. Multiply that by 4 and you can see the benefits.
Times have certainly changed, though. I payed $60 per year to play unlimited golf at either of Tonawanda, NY's 2 munis. Yeah, I frequently had to queue for 2 hours to play, but it was summer vacation from college, so who cared? Besides, it was a lot better than my part time job at Kmart!
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Dan.
Agreed, but if you live in a cold climate you have to factor in that you are paying for something you cannot use 5 months out of the year (more or less). If you are off in the summer, like I am, you can maximize your rounds to make up for it! I just can't imagine taking a family of 6 golfing 1-2 times per month at a public course. At that point, it is cheaper to join a club. Of course, if said club has a pool, I can sell this to my wife that much easier!
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I have weighed this over and over in my head. As someone who spent a bit of time around a club growing up I am all but certain I would never "fit in" at most of the clubs in my area. The idea that every course around here(I know of 1 that doesn't) seems to put the club ahead of golf makes me very timid to wade into the financial requirements of joining a club. Now all that said, I play very quick, I play a lot, my wife plays, and both kids have shown interest if not talent. I know that fiscally it makes a lot of sense to join a country club, but I just can't get over the thought of being there as much as I would be and be less important than the bride that just walked in. I also have other peeves, I carry and that is a nono here. I would almost never eat there, so that would be wasted "requirement".
As someone who works in the wedding industry I am scared that golf will be on life support soon. I have seen a number of public courses add massive updated club houses to support corporate outings and wedding banquets. I don't know the numbers but I have a hard time believing that the 5 million+ spent on those public owned clubhouses is going to be bringing in more money than putting a pinch of that into the golf course, and what that could have brought in.
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It would be fascinating to know what % of Golf Club Atlas' 1500 participants are actually dues-paying members of a private club. I'm thinking it's less than half ... and what does that say about our business?
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Chris - so sad, but so true.
I wonder i the founders of the Greatest Game could have envisioned a world where golf clubs were becoming wedding factories...
Just go and elope and give us back our game :)
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Tom D - what I don't think has been brought up much in this thread (but has on many other threads) is Time. The current generation of parents has - or believes it has - less time for golf on a regular/weekly basis; so for Golfer X, the financial commitment to a 'structure' that requires that weekly commitment in order to be feasible makes less and less sense. Which is to say yet again that Mr. Keiser and the Bandon model is an idea that perfectly fits the times. Golfer X will allow himself (and spend the money on) one trip a year over four days if he can play four great golf courses. The true golf-only resort complex -- 2, 3, 4 courses -- works now, if the courses provide a memorable golf-only experience.
Peter
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I love being a member of a club. My wife loves it, my kids love it and my family loves it. I think of my club like my summer lake house (although it is 13 minutes from my house). I can play golf early on weekends, have a beer or two with my group and head over the pool to swim with my kids, play with my kids and even play some golf or tennis with them. In the winters I can head out to the gun club on Fridays and weekends and shoot some skeet, some trap or just hang out and watch football or hoops. I don't know what I would do without it.
I spend some of my best times there with my dad and a great group of golfing friends. I get a lot of business from the club as relationships are forged over drinks, golf, dinner or just hanging out. And, I've made a lot of friends at other local and not-so local clubs through interactions and events with other clubs.
The country club life is a good life for me and my family...but I'm also at a club that is a "family first club"...and I'm grateful to be able to partake.
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Everyone is different and every club is different. If you can find one that fits you, great. If not, well, there are other options. Beyond that, ask yourself, do you want the club to be like you want it to be, without putting anything into it yourself? Or, do you accept that as a member you have both the right and responsibility to do your part to make the club a happy place for you?
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Maybe I'm just more agreeable than others, but I get a kick out of people who say they don't think they have anything in common with an entire group of 250+ people who have committed a large amount of money to play golf. Local people at that! Seriously, if you can't find a group of guys to have fun playing with at a local club, you're either not trying hard enough or should find a cave in the mountains to live in.
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...
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Referring to the original post, you have to understand Bogey is a banker.
They are less popular than lawyers these days.
Sad but true...... ;)
Keep in mind that Clint is a banker as well and sometimes even he plays in a 2 some at OFCC! ;)
Jack
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It would be fascinating to know what % of Golf Club Atlas' 1500 participants are actually dues-paying members of a private club. I'm thinking it's less than half ... and what does that say about our business?
Tom
Since 70% of the clubs in America are public it would seem that GCA is pretty much an accurate reflection of the golfing community.
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Referring to the original post, you have to understand Bogey is a banker.
They are less popular than lawyers these days.
Sad but true...... ;)
Keep in mind that Clint is a banker as well and sometimes even he plays in a 2 some at OFCC! ;)
Jack
Jack, that's a sad representation of those still willing to play with me being a banker 8)
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Maybe I'm just more agreeable than others, but I get a kick out of people who say they don't think they have anything in common with an entire group of 250+ people who have committed a large amount of money to play golf. Local people at that! Seriously, if you can't find a group of guys to have fun playing with at a local club, you're either not trying hard enough or should find a cave in the mountains to live in.
Clint-
Not that this is meant expressly for me, but I did take a bit of exception to it. Given the fact that I grew up in a farm community, my summer job was at the local factory with my dad (until about 17), and then went to school in the heart of the South. Factor in that I work as a coach/trainer and spend a large portion of my time working weddings I foresee myself struggling a bit to "fit in" at the standard Chicago area country club.
Now obviously there are 200+ members at most clubs and I would be certain to find a good number of people whom I would get along with quite well. But I am fully knowledgeable that the politics and some of the clique issues would drive me insane. While I do have a wife who plays and 2 kids the "country club" part of the equation isn't what I would call my ideal environment.
I have met a number of great GCA people in my short time on the boards, but I know that the people who bleed golf for the club are few and far between. And that is what makes me a little timid about joining a club.
Now put me at a true golf club......
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we just passed a locker room improvement and $7500 is due sept 1st.The squabbling that follows makes playing golf less fun. I am not thrilled about more clubhouse money but if you quit do you regret it?
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I got to join Ravisloe for a few years as a member due to the great deals they were offering at the time...and I loved it! a good course, terrific food, a wonderful for pool for all of us to use.....
but after my initial 2 year membership deal expired, monthly dues almost doubled, and i had to let it go
i'd love to be a member somewhere else...there is an awesome course 10 minutes from my house but with 3 girls in private schools, one of whom is entering college in the fall, there is just no way i can afford it
and i'm certainly not poor, my wife and i both work and do okay...but its simply too expensive...now maybe if i didnt live in Chicagoland......
Ryan Potts post on this subject is quite good i think
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8) sorry to hear that Bogey.. but you gotta do what you gotta do..
I've been a member at WCC since 1992.. it seems I've/we've played with hundreds of folks.. done all the usual organized/impromptu things, but now just play when, how we want.. don't need anything organized.. but don't ignore either..
oh and like real estate, i have location location location location location, location location and location accessible..
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Maybe I'm just more agreeable than others, but I get a kick out of people who say they don't think they have anything in common with an entire group of 250+ people who have committed a large amount of money to play golf. Local people at that! Seriously, if you can't find a group of guys to have fun playing with at a local club, you're either not trying hard enough or should find a cave in the mountains to live in.
Clint-
Not that this is meant expressly for me, but I did take a bit of exception to it. Given the fact that I grew up in a farm community, my summer job was at the local factory with my dad (until about 17), and then went to school in the heart of the South. Factor in that I work as a coach/trainer and spend a large portion of my time working weddings I foresee myself struggling a bit to "fit in" at the standard Chicago area country club.
Now obviously there are 200+ members at most clubs and I would be certain to find a good number of people whom I would get along with quite well. But I am fully knowledgeable that the politics and some of the clique issues would drive me insane. While I do have a wife who plays and 2 kids the "country club" part of the equation isn't what I would call my ideal environment.
I have met a number of great GCA people in my short time on the boards, but I know that the people who bleed golf for the club are few and far between. And that is what makes me a little timid about joining a club.
Now put me at a true golf club......
Chris, I think you're seeing all that is bad due to your wedding history. No different than washing dishes at a restaurant can sour a person from eating out....you've seen it all. I grew up in a 2000 person town and play at a club with plenty of people who are, to put it mildly, not in my social circle. But on the golf course, none of it matters. It's entirely simple to avoid the politics and the cliques of a club, just be yourself and fun to play with and you'd have no problems fitting in. At least that's my experience....and I was extremely nervous about all of this when I joined as 26 yr old who didn't know 3 people there.
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Put me in the "would love to join, but" crowd. I would join in a heartbeat if I can join the exact same club my brother join in New Jersey; family friendly with tennis and pool within 15 min of my house. The clubs that I can afford would take about an hour to get there in traffic which rules out any afterwork play/practic and the ones close by are out of my price range.
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Seems as though this discussion also reflects the nationwide dilemma re golf. THERE ARE MORE CHOICES.....for every post that says " I would join but"....they have found an acceptable outlet for playing golf elsewhere ...may not be ideal but it works and therefore they can justify not joining...I think that is basically why Bogey can make the choice he is making re his club...and why so many of us that have been members at a club for years can question whether we care to continue since there are other choices in an area.....but the one reason most of the guys my age , in my club, that consider leaving....and it has not been mentioned here.....our kids are of the age they can join as legacies...and a very small percentage of them want to join...and that is a HUGE problem for clubs everywhere....
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....but the one reason most of the guys my age , in my club, that consider leaving....and it has not been mentioned here.....our kids are of the age they can join as legacies...and a very small percentage of them want to join...and that is a HUGE problem for clubs everywhere....
Very true. Our dues are only $300, but the minimum monthly bill seems to be $600, even if you avoid the bar. That's a tough after-tax nut for most young guys getting started in these uncertain times.
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Very true. Our dues are only $300, but the minimum monthly bill seems to be $600, even if you avoid the bar. That's a tough after-tax nut for most young guys getting started in these uncertain times.
Bill,
Do you mind me asking what the "non-dues" monthly costs, in general terms?
Our dues are also somewhere in the $300 range and this past winter in a month were I literally did not step foot on the property the bill was a little less than $400 (I think the dues were $292 and that bill was like $378 but my memory may be off). But a few things have since gone up so I doubt it would be much under $400 now and I consider that $400-ish to be the true cost of membership.
With six or seven rounds of golf, generally including a meal each time, plus the odd glove or box of balls at the pro shop most months are pushing $500 but a bill over that is unusual unless I buy merchandise from the pro. I don't think I'd care to be nailed down to that level of expenditure (or more) without getting in those rounds of golf. Does your club have large minimums for several categories?
The one aspect of "club life", at least at my club, that I have to grit my teeth and bear are the nickel-and-dime stuff like dining minimum, a non-optional charge for range balls, a couple dollars per round played and most recently a $15/month cart subsidy if you always walk. I wish they'd just declare the "dues" are $378 or whatever instead of b.s.-ing about it. But it's the same (tough) nut no matter what they call it so I guess it's no big deal...
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Can someone out there in GCA land show me a successful, thriving GOLF ONLY (well, minimal food and a pool is OK) model that does not try and get you on all the extras, and doesn't insist on cart revenue? USA only BTW.....
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Rich,
I'd be interested to hear the answers to your question. I suspect that Columbia CC might be just about as close to that as we're going to get in this day and age. The club does spend a ton of money on dining although at least prior to the current crunch the only real effect on an individual (golfer) member is a modest $35 monthly minimum. And also due to the current situation we've instituted the $15 cart subsidy I mentioned. But given that we do no restrict walking, ever, and there are no onerous caddie requirements or huge dining and bar minimums I'm fairly satisfied as long as I view those little nickel-and-dime things are part of my dues.
Where it's going to be a problem is if the economy fails to recover for another year or two. Because the boatload of money flowing through the kitchen and dining room every month is something easy to ignore in good times but when the balance sheet turns red it's going to bring the differences between "golfers" and "eaters" into stark relief. And that day is pretty soon, I'm afraid. But for now I'm not sure how many "golfers" at private clubs have it better than I do!
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I used to think I was not a club kind of guy but I joined one in 2005 and doubt I will ever go back to being a pure public course player.
I joined because of friends who were members, proximity to my home, practice facilities and pace of play. All of those advantages proved to be real but the things I like best go far beyond that. I like having the ability to change things - even though that is a messy process. I like looking at the tee sheet and having 5 different groups throughout the day that I can sign up to play with and know I will be welcome and will have a good time with the group. I like the ability it provides to play other private clubs - either through formal competitions, informal home and home rounds or whatever. I like being part of an organization that is dedicated to having fun.
For me the downside is expense. Expenses are completely out of whack with public golf. It has always seemed to me that a model should exist for "affordable private golf" that includes stripping out the vanity expenses but keeping the facilities that are truly used. For us that would mean keeping the pool, cutting the clubhouse and clubhouse staff to about 1/4 its current size and shutting the place down during the winter other than maybe a basic kitchen with minimal staff and a card room.
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Can someone out there in GCA land show me a successful, thriving GOLF ONLY (well, minimal food) model that does not try and get you on all the extras, and doesn't insist on cart revenue? USA only BTW.....
Richard: Carolina Golf Club (Charlotte) comes pretty darn close, at least for now. Are we thriving? Who is these days? But for now we seem to be getting by. In addition to a golf course, we do have a swimming pool, which we could not get by without. Maybe that takes us out of contention for your "contest." However, we do meet the minimal food requirement, and we don't have any extras to get nailed on and we don't insist on cart revenue. If I am wrong, I hope our General Manager, Roger Wolfe, who is a GCA member, will see this and offer his insights. In the meantime, here's a link to a discussion that began about 18 months ago in which Roger shared some of his experience and opinions: http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,38006.0/ I'd like to hear Roger's updated comments today.
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Very interesting comments and thoughts.
I should come clean. I grew up on a small town with a simple 3,000 yards 9 hole golf course that received very little play. Straight from the car to the first tee and never a wait and 75 minutes rounds always walking. I was the only kid in junior and senior high who played golf and had the place to myself after school or before or after work in the summer (life-guarding at the "club" pool). As a result I played 90% of my golf alone with both my thoughts and game. I had some quick sucess with the game and frankly it was all I had to do - we didn't even have a movie theater in town. Playing alone became a habit that I carry to this day, and I still look outside the game for social interaction and deeper fellowship, preferring to play golf by myself in the evenings. Along those lines, it's not unusual for me to not play with other members of The Senior Tour that was profiled in Golf Digest's Ambush in the course of a year except for our annual trip. More than anything it is this habit that makes club membership less than ideal.
I would be remiss if I didn't cite the economics as well. I'm a commercial banker - not an investment banker and while I have no complaints $500/month is a lot of money though in today's world few are willing to admit it. For the most part I've lost interest in playing the game unless it's in the company of fellow architectural enthusiasts or at a golf course with a de minimis level of architectural interest. For example I'd trade a month of playing at my club for another round at Aiken Golf Club, much less a more reknowned and celebrated venue. Golf courses thrill me and always have. By comparison, the game is old hat, though decidedly more rumpled and faded these days!
Just a few random thoughts. Thanks for letting me share them.
Kindest regards,
Mike
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Very true. Our dues are only $300, but the minimum monthly bill seems to be $600, even if you avoid the bar. That's a tough after-tax nut for most young guys getting started in these uncertain times.
Bill,
Do you mind me asking what the "non-dues" monthly costs, in general terms?
Our dues are also somewhere in the $300 range and this past winter in a month were I literally did not step foot on the property the bill was a little less than $400 (I think the dues were $292 and that bill was like $378 but my memory may be off). But a few things have since gone up so I doubt it would be much under $400 now and I consider that $400-ish to be the true cost of membership.
With six or seven rounds of golf, generally including a meal each time, plus the odd glove or box of balls at the pro shop most months are pushing $500 but a bill over that is unusual unless I buy merchandise from the pro. I don't think I'd care to be nailed down to that level of expenditure (or more) without getting in those rounds of golf. Does your club have large minimums for several categories?
The one aspect of "club life", at least at my club, that I have to grit my teeth and bear are the nickel-and-dime stuff like dining minimum, a non-optional charge for range balls, a couple dollars per round played and most recently a $15/month cart subsidy if you always walk. I wish they'd just declare the "dues" are $378 or whatever instead of b.s.-ing about it. But it's the same (tough) nut no matter what they call it so I guess it's no big deal...
Brent, my monthly costs are skewed because my wife, Kathleen, is a very active player who plays 3x a week, sometimes 4, but mostly walks until we hit June. Then she might walk 9 and ride the back.
We both have monthly charges for locker rental, club storage and handicap fee/range use. We have a monthly food minimum and a $40 / month charge ("house charge") that covers all gratuities. Between cart rentals and lunches, the occasional drink and dinner maybe once a month, our year around average is probably $900.
But we play 20-25 rounds a a month between us so that's a bargain to play on a quality course with a friendly group.
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Very interesting comments and thoughts.
I should come clean. I grew up on a small town with a simple 3,000 yards 9 hole golf course that received very little play. Straight from the car to the first tee and never a wait and 75 minutes rounds always walking. I was the only kid in junior and senior high who played golf and had the place to myself after school or before or after work in the summer (life-guarding at the "club" pool). As a result I played 90% of my golf alone with both my thoughts and game. I had some quick sucess with the game and frankly it was all I had to do - we didn't even have a movie theater in town. Playing alone became a habit that I carry to this day, and I still look outside the game for social interaction and deeper fellowship, preferring to play golf by myself in the evenings. Along those lines, it's not unusual for me to not play with other members of The Senior Tour that was profiled in Golf Digest's Ambush in the course of a year except for our annual trip. More than anything it is this habit that makes club membership less than ideal.
I would be remiss if I didn't cite the economics as well. I'm a commercial banker - not an investment banker and while I have no complaints $500/month is a lot of money though in today's world few are willing to admit it. For the most part I've lost interest in playing the game unless it's in the company of fellow architectural enthusiasts or at a golf course with a de minimis level of architectural interest. For example I'd trade a month of playing at my club for another round at Aiken Golf Club, much less a more reknowned and celebrated venue. Golf courses thrill me and always have. By comparison, the game is old hat, though decidedly more rumpled and faded these days!
Just a few random thoughts. Thanks for letting me share them.
Kindest regards,
Mike
Hard to argue with that, although I have never particularly liked playing alone and love the competitiveness of a four ball, foursomes or singles match (as long as I get my strokes!). I too have grown bored with the dogfights at my home course and blame it on the fun of playing in GCA events.
I have a bunch of friends at Pensacola Country Club who play there 3-4-5x a week, always with the same 20 guys, always in a dogfight where it's your foursome or fivesome against two or three others, two or three best balls matching the scorecards. You never know what the other teams are doing (other than their body language out on the course). Or how long the putts are being conceded that day. Yawn. ZZZZZZZZZZZ.
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I have a bunch of friends at Pensacola Country Club who play there 3-4-5x a week, always with the same 20 guys, always in a dogfight where it's your foursome or fivesome against two or three others, two or three best balls matching the scorecards. You never know what the other teams are doing (other than their body language out on the course). Or how long the putts are being conceded that day. Yawn. ZZZZZZZZZZZ.
I'm not quite to that point yet...but probably only because I quit playing twice a week in the dogfights a few months ago. I think having those set games is a huge benefit of club play, so I don't want to seem ungrateful. But doing it even twice a week, every week, not to mention the guys who do it every day would be enervating.
The ennui of our dogfights is even moreso because we play gross Stableford points with handicap points/stroke added post hoc. So in other words it's stroke play with a double-bogey limit and full handicaps. Not only do we not see our opponents, it's not even better ball. You just keep your head down and keep a scorecard and hope the guys on your team-for-the-day shoot good scores.
The camaraderie is sufficiently entertaining that it took me a couple years to realize I was basically showing up and playing a round of medal play every Saturday and Sunday and then tossing my score into a random jumble and hoping it came up a winner. Once again, I appreciate having that game on the tee sheet any time I'd like to join in but now that I've got a couple of semi-regular groups to play "real" head-to-head golf with I find my interest level is much higher, my frustration (with my game) level is much lower and I actually play better overall. The joys of match play, all over again.
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For those that live in Michigan and assuming you still have a job. This must be about bare bones as it gets without being semi-private.
http://www.golfwestshore.com/index.php?module=htmlpages&func=display&pid=2
Even these prices at Detroit GC seem quite reasonable for a 36 hole facility. Its quite a nice club.
http://detroitgolfclub.org/Default.aspx?p=DynamicModule&pageid=278624&ssid=152795&vnf=1?ssid=152931
Some news on DGC which is likely hurting more than most clubs in Michigan.
http://www.golf.com/golf/courses_travel/article/0,28136,1957262,00.html
Ciao
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Can someone out there in GCA land show me a successful, thriving GOLF ONLY (well, minimal food) model that does not try and get you on all the extras, and doesn't insist on cart revenue? USA only BTW.....
Yes, Pine Valley.
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Isn't Golf Club Atlas kind of like a club? Like minded people gathering with common likes and dislikes? Discussing the things they have in common, debating passionately points/ideas that very few people in the world care about? Meeting and gathering multiple times a year to have face time, building relationships, playing golf, and the like?
I think it is, anyway.
I belong to a private golf club in Atlanta and play with friends at their clubs. It is kind of neat hosting friends one week and then being hosted another. It adds variety to the game and gives a sense of fellowship to host people at your club for golf, lunch, drinks...whatever.
I also like to travel to play golf...to meet people...to see new things.
It is fun for me.
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Lots of interesting points and thoughts.
I belong to a full service club which works great for us. Family is a big user of the swimming and racquet sports as well as junior golf. I get to play virtually anytime and since it's only 2 miles from the office, I get to practice at lunch.
I can't understand why my game isn't better though!
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It would be fascinating to know what % of Golf Club Atlas' 1500 participants are actually dues-paying members of a private club. I'm thinking it's less than half ... and what does that say about our business?
I'm a dues paying member. I've been a club player since the time I was 8 years old (now 35) with the exception of maybe three years. I really liked the course I played at during my teens years and had a junior membership at after college. I got involved in a fun game on Saturday mornings. The club had no tee times on weekend mornings so your group just showed up. But everyone knew their slot so you rarely waited for the tee. It had a great practice facility too. Then the club wanted to fancy up the clubhouse, which required a large assessment. So my dad and I left along with at least 1/3 of the membership. After a few years without a home course a joined an inexpensive club (the least expensive in Cincinnati - my junior dues are $187/month right now) just a few minutes from my old club. The course is on terrible land (the best was for housing) and has no practice facility. It's not maintained well (trees/bushes have grown into the lines of play, cartpaths are a mess (I walk but it's unsightly), fences are falling down, bunkers are horrible, etc) but we had a really good scratch game for a few years which made it a lot of fun. Now most of those guys have left for various reasons. The course is way too difficult for my wife and son (both beginners). The club is always trying to have some social gathering on friday nights but they have to cancel because no one signs up. The pool is extremely popular and probably why many people join. I looked into joining my old club. They have a an annual membership to attract new members. When my dues go up next year the annual membership of $5,000 won't be much more than my current club. However, o be a regular member would be $10,000 a year in dues plus assessments. Give me a break! This is nowhere near a top flight club in the city but they want to charge like it. I think over the next 5 to 10 years the club world is going to get blown up by the economy but it doesn't have to be that way if they catered to golfing members first.
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Can someone out there in GCA land show me a successful, thriving GOLF ONLY (well, minimal food) model that does not try and get you on all the extras, and doesn't insist on cart revenue? USA only BTW.....
Richard,
There are a bunch in New England. Obviously, thriving is a relative term.
Newport CC on the private side - see their 990 at www.guidestar.org. The place has a catering service that brings in food for the day and for big functions.
Wahconah CC in the Berkshires appeared to be doing very well last Friday. New England style semi-private with an awesome front 9 by Stiles and VanKleek, and a very average back side not by Stile and VK. Clubhouse was probably a replacement that was functional.
Cape Arundel - Maine style semi-private. Short season but seems to always be upgrading the course just a little each year. Clubhouse is New England style shabby-cool. Course in my #1 in the 6000 yard category.
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Bogey
I also like you enjoy playing alone in the evenings. Curious if that might also be a factor in not wanting to join a club.
How many who choose not to join a club also enjoy playing alone?
John
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If I ever move back to the States I would probably give building a club without a course style club a go. There is a lot to be said for this essentially Scottish model.
http://greenvillegolfingsociety.com/
Ciao
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....but the one reason most of the guys my age , in my club, that consider leaving....and it has not been mentioned here.....our kids are of the age they can join as legacies...and a very small percentage of them want to join...and that is a HUGE problem for clubs everywhere....
Very true. Our dues are only $300, but the minimum monthly bill seems to be $600, even if you avoid the bar. That's a tough after-tax nut for most young guys getting started in these uncertain times.
Bill,
I'm not saying it is the money with these young people....they only pay half dues until 35 at our place....it is the concept...their generation does not really want to be known as "country club".....
AND i'm not saying I don't lke belonging to a private club either...I'm saying that golf cannot continue to support the other amenities as it has in the past....I don't buy the BS that weddings and parties justify clubhouses....what we have is a situation where these large facilites are there and we don't know how to stop the bleeding in the coming years. The golf can make it and do well but much of the other stuff is going to reach a point where it is either torn down or banquet rooms become racquet ball courts or bed and breakfast....but food has never and will never make it ......you want proof....shut down the kithen and see how much that affects golf rounds....shut down golf and see how much that affects food served....the model is going to change...
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Why eat at my club when there are probably close to a hundred better options that are closer to the theater or wherever my wife and I are going on that rare night out. It is the rare club that as good of food and as good of service as a restaurant. Plus, more people have specialized diets. My wife and I try to always eat vegetarian and prefer to eat vegan when we can. I've never been to a club that had anything good in those categories.
Most people eat the club before or after a round of golf. All that is needed are some good burgers and sandwiches.
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Why eat at my club when there are probably close to a hundred better options that are closer to the theater or wherever my wife and I are going on that rare night out. It is the rare club that as good of food and as good of service as a restaurant. Plus, more people have specialized diets. My wife and I try to always eat vegetarian and prefer to eat vegan when we can. I've never been to a club that had anything good in those categories.
Most people eat the club before or after a round of golf. All that is needed are some good burgers and sandwiches.
There was a time when the country club, particularly in small towns, was known for the best food in town. Those days seem to be long gone.
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GCA has ruined it for me. I have a young family so a club would be great, but I live in an area where there are public courses that are superior to the second-tier private clubs and the first-tier clubs are beyond our reasonable financial reach. The sort of club that would work for me--low-key atmosphere, very good course, affordable--just doesn't exist in my neck of the woods.
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Riverfront has a yearly for $1680. For that you get to hit all the range balls you want, play all the golf you want (you have to pay $15 for the cart before 2 pm).
My complaints are as follows:
- another $25 for the handicapping service (just throw that in with the yearly and round up to $1700.)
- the short game/chipping green is not maintained well enough to get a true roll out on chips and the two practice bunkers need to be re-built, (I would like to see the problem solved and yes pay for it).
- No real effort is made to even address the slow play problem. With the degree of difficulty of the course, there needs to be a sign at the pro shop entrance similar to Bethpage Black.
- Bunker maintenance is an issue at Riverfront because only because of their depth and degree of difficulty
Pretty inconsequencial when you think about it. I am extremely lucky.
The Riverfront Golf Association has the usual range of issues but strikes a pretty good balence between structure, fun and competitiveness, however to solve the slow play problem we tee off first on Saturday's which is 6:57 AM ... a real challenge for me.
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Can someone out there in GCA land show me a successful, thriving GOLF ONLY (well, minimal food) model that does not try and get you on all the extras, and doesn't insist on cart revenue? USA only BTW.....
Ryan,
Forgive me, and also one that most people can actually join. ;D
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I love being a member of a club. My wife loves it, my kids love it and my family loves it. I think of my club like my summer lake house (although it is 13 minutes from my house). I can play golf early on weekends, have a beer or two with my group and head over the pool to swim with my kids, play with my kids and even play some golf or tennis with them. In the winters I can head out to the gun club on Fridays and weekends and shoot some skeet, some trap or just hang out and watch football or hoops. I don't know what I would do without it.
I spend some of my best times there with my dad and a great group of golfing friends. I get a lot of business from the club as relationships are forged over drinks, golf, dinner or just hanging out. And, I've made a lot of friends at other local and not-so local clubs through interactions and events with other clubs.
The country club life is a good life for me and my family...but I'm also at a club that is a "family first club"...and I'm grateful to be able to partake.
Ryan's experience is very similar to mine, except for the parts about having a gun club and about getting business through the club. It's not the best (or even 2nd best) course within a five-mile radius, but my wife grew up going there, my kids are very active in swimming/diving/tennis, it's very family friendly, the course is certainly good enough for me, pace of play is great, and the public options in DC aren't particularly attractive. It gets expensive in the summer now that my kids know our member number :o, but they've temporarily suspended the weekly poker game so that's helping out. ;)
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Here is what the majority of customers want:
1. good golf course that allows and encourages walking.
2. small CH with the ability to change clothes, take a quick shower and grab a burger and beer after playing.
3. no tee times...just walk up and play
4. somewhat family friendly...pool or no pool.
5. modest dues.
6. no food minimum
This is a tough model to make work:
1. No tees times and minimal wait on the tee during peak times (Friday, saturday, Sunday & Holidays) had to limit the membership to about 225 or less. Above this number, peak times require a tee time to be made.
2. Walking is ok, but some members or guests enjoy riding. Allow the customer what they want.
3. Small CH are the way to go. Food at a club is a break even financial investment at best. Why do clubs have weddings and outside events? To try to get the F&B operation to break even at bthe end of the year. Margins on F&B are 10% when you do everything properly.
4. Pool and tennis are financial losers. They are used to encourage family memberships so the husband can sell the club to the wife as a "family activity".
5. A large clubhouse and encourages F&B minimums. Small CH with minimal food and the ability to sell beer will be an operation that has a chance of turning a profit.
6. Modest dues. If the club is run very modestly, you may be able to operate with an annual operating cost at $1,000,000, which translates to $4,000/year or $350/month for 250 members (so we can all get out and play quickly). Add to that to debt the club has to either build the place or fix it up. It will cost $100,000 annually to carry and amortize each million of debt so each of our members is resonsible for $400 in debt service annually for each $1 million the club carries in debt. If the club is older and carries only $4 million in debt each member's share of the annual debt cost is $1,600. Add that to your $4,000 in dues and you are at $5,00 annually or $500/month.....a bit more than most want to spend.
Golf is a tough financial model to make work.
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Here is what the majority of customers want:
1. good golf course that allows and encourages walking.
2. small CH with the ability to change clothes, take a quick shower and grab a burger and beer after playing.
3. no tee times...just walk up and play
4. somewhat family friendly...pool or no pool.
5. modest dues.
6. no food minimum
This is a tough model to make work:
1. No tees times and minimal wait on the tee during peak times (Friday, saturday, Sunday & Holidays) had to limit the membership to about 225 or less. Above this number, peak times require a tee time to be made.
2. Walking is ok, but some members or guests enjoy riding. Allow the customer what they want.
3. Small CH are the way to go. Food at a club is a break even financial investment at best. Why do clubs have weddings and outside events? To try to get the F&B operation to break even at bthe end of the year. Margins on F&B are 10% when you do everything properly.
4. Pool and tennis are financial losers. They are used to encourage family memberships so the husband can sell the club to the wife as a "family activity".
5. A large clubhouse and encourages F&B minimums. Small CH with minimal food and the ability to sell beer will be an operation that has a chance of turning a profit.
6. Modest dues. If the club is run very modestly, you may be able to operate with an annual operating cost at $1,000,000, which translates to $4,000/year or $350/month for 250 members (so we can all get out and play quickly). Add to that to debt the club has to either build the place or fix it up. It will cost $100,000 annually to carry and amortize each million of debt so each of our members is resonsible for $400 in debt service annually for each $1 million the club carries in debt. If the club is older and carries only $4 million in debt each member's share of the annual debt cost is $1,600. Add that to your $4,000 in dues and you are at $5,00 annually or $500/month.....a bit more than most want to spend.
Golf is a tough financial model to make work.
Hi Bruce,
Your analysis is right on time. You cannot sustain a good golf club with 225 members at $350 per month without a sugar
daddy deep pocket owner calling the shots. Usually if you want great conditions and abundant accessibility you have to
pay for the mcmansion clubhouse and fine dining. If you settle for less... you get way less. We are pretty proud of
what we have in CGC.
Our little club in Charlotte is $345 per month (includes $75 in debt service) with about 500 members. We have a pool and
a golf grille that does a surprising amount of business with a small staff. We focus on what our members want. They want
good, inexpensive food and cheap drinks. They love holiday buffets and lawn parties. The HAVE to love golf. Our food min
is $25 per month but includes the snack bar and non-alcohol purchases. I know everyone hates any kind of food minimum
but it does help properly staff the facility. Food is costed at 55%. Liquor and beer at 40%. All of our pours are doubles.
After 5 years of tinkering and renovation we have a pretty good model. Our initiation has risen from $8,000 to $22,000 in
five years (and held) but our dues are $100 lower than ANY other club... even the mid-level, "no initiation" clubs. Our clubhouse
and pool were built in the early 60's but our course and golf course maintenance facilities are state of the art featuring wall to wall
irrigiation coverage. Maintenance budget is around 800k (not including leases). Course is generally considered 3rd best in the
city behind Charlotte CC and Quail Hollow. So far so good.
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The one thing in Bruce's model that I don't follow is why you can't have a no tee times policy with more than a couple of hundred members. Here in the UK, there are _loads_ of clubs with significantly more members (and visitors too) that don't keep a tee sheet. At my Dad's club in the north of England, they have maybe 400 members, and the only occasion on which you have to reserve a tee time is for a club competition. If you show up at 10.30 on a summer Saturday (albeit that on a fair proportion of such days, there'll be a comp), there might be a bit of a queue. But still, you don't need to reserve, you just put a ball in the dispenser, and have a cup of coffee.
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Roger, the club you are describing sounds perfect for me. If there was a club like that within 20 miles, I would join in a heartbeat.
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I also like you enjoy playing alone in the evenings. Curious if that might also be a factor in not wanting to join a club.
How many who choose not to join a club also enjoy playing alone?
I was lucky enough to join a club where it turned out I could play alone almost any weekday afternoon. They accepted tee times, but it wasn't an issue except maybe 10 days out of the year.
One Masters Sunday the asst mgr came up to me on the course and asked if I needed anything, because I was literally the only one on the course. I quickly (and embarrassedly) established the "Please Don't Ever Wait Around Just For Me" guideline.
That's not to say I didn't really enjoy rounds with other members, but having both options was fantastic.
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Roger, the club you are describing sounds perfect for me. If there was a club like that within 20 miles, I would join in a heartbeat.
Everett Golf and CC?
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31.8 miles... :)
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Roger, the club you are describing sounds perfect for me. If there was a club like that within 20 miles, I would join in a heartbeat.
Richard, I strongly suggest you join a club with a 100% refundable initiation fee since you may well be asked to resign after sticking a brush tee in the ground at the first hole of your maiden round. You will at least be able to claim the shortest membership stint at a private club in the history of golf - so you've got that going for you.
Bogey
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No kidding, a brush tee? :o
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If I can tee off at Old Macdonald opening day with a brush tee (9th person to tee off), then I should be able to tee with it anywhere!
(http://public.blu.livefilestore.com/y1pT7C804FTgNIYLAp4Q_VWyMfrCdHSfs-b1RdNH2-ezNwN4oPALJ2mPygTrPQyrsCN7OgIwnMMQPJWWGSBF80y9w/At%201st%20Tee%20-%20Brush%20Tee%20in%20Da%20House!.JPG?psid=2)
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I live near Athens, Georgia, and there is a very good "country club" in town. For me, the temptation to join the club goes beyond the course, as I frankly prefer to paly the University of Georgia course (which is obviously public). My take is that most of the best golfers in town (other than the UGA golf team) play out of that club. Therefore, if you want to acquire some good golfing buddies, joinging the club is the logical thing to do. I work with a number of great golfers (all partners at the firm where I am an associate), but I rarely golf with any of them, because they only play at the club. Regardless of what my income may eventually become, I do not think that I could ever stomach the costs associated with club membership. While fees around here are relatively reasonable (perhaps just under $500 a month), the math just does not work for me. I am a young attorney with young kids and am lucky to get 20 rounds in a year. I can play that much golf for well under $1000 TOTAL on local courses. I can then take the difference and take two golf trips a year (one short, local trip to Pinehurst or Kiawah, and one week-long longer trip to Bandon or Ireland). The only problem is that until my sons are older I will continue to struggle to find any local golfing buddies with whom to take such trips. This is one of the reasons that I am determined to start making some GCA outings soon.
Query - How many of you belong to clubs that have effectively dealt with the per rounjd cost problem by either 1) deemphaisizing the "country club" aspect and focusing just on golf or 2) allowing limited visitor access to defray costs.
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You can never justify a club by analyzing "per round." The public club will always win.
What you need to do is calculate your "leisure time enjoyment quotient." Do you enjoy walking?
Do you enjoy a three hour round? Do you enjoy being able to spontaneously finish your yard
work early by 4 PM then play eighteen holes from 4:15 to 7:00? Do you enjoy spending time with
other members as passionate about golf as you are?
A private club enables you 1) play more golf in 2) less time on 3) better conditions with 4) great
folks. If you can't afford it... just say you can't afford it. Don't try to justify it with analysis.
:)
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Roger, the club you are describing sounds perfect for me. If there was a club like that within 20 miles, I would join in a heartbeat.
Richard,
The one thing that I can say from my one visit to CGC is that it is better that Roger is making it out to be. The course is extremely fun and the whole place has a great "golf" vibe.
Trust me, it pains me to say good things about anything Ed Oden is involved with. :)
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You can never justify a club by analyzing "per round." The public club will always win.
What you need to do is calculate your "leisure time enjoyment quotient." Do you enjoy walking?
Do you enjoy a three hour round? Do you enjoy being able to spontaneously finish your yard
work early by 4 PM then play eighteen holes from 4:15 to 7:00? Do you enjoy spending time with
other members as passionate about golf as you are?
A private club enables you 1) play more golf in 2) less time on 3) better conditions with 4) great
folks. If you can't afford it... just say you can't afford it. Don't try to justify it with analysis.
:)
Perhaps this is where many US clubs go wrong. A great many folks in the UK at least part analyse their membership by cost per round. I can guarantee you that if the cost was anywhere near $100 (seemingly not that high for many clubs) a game there would be far less golf clubs and golfers.
Ciao
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Playing alone became a habit that I carry to this day, and I still look outside the game for social interaction and deeper fellowship, preferring to play golf by myself in the evenings. Along those lines, it's not unusual for me to not play with other members of The Senior Tour that was profiled in Golf Digest's Ambush in the course of a year except for our annual trip. More than anything it is this habit that makes club membership less than ideal.
I very much enjoy carrying my bag around for a few holes in the afternoon. Sometimes 6, often 9, occasionally a few more. It's a great way to unwind from the day, and it allows one to maintain a respectable golf game.
There is one reality Mike, it doesn't happen unless you are a member at a private club.
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John Kavanaugh gave us the correct cost-per-round equation in 2008.
"One of the ways I justify paying dues is through the use of opportunity costs. At $600 per month you can say a club costs $20 per day to golf. Sitting at my desk right now I have to weigh the options of either working, drinking, gambling, talking to my wife or golfing. If I choose to golf it only costs me the $20 I have already payed for the right to play today. If I choose to work, invest time in my marital relationship, or just get drunk and gamble I plan on earning a return far greater than $20. Therefore my cost per round at a $600 a month private club is only $20 per round no matter how few rounds I play per year."
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Roger & Adam: Work (that dirty word) precluded me from answering yesterday.
Roger: your clubs model works about as well as any I've seen. Given how the club is run, you should have a few $$$ in the bank for CapEx improvements when you need them. Most clubs would trade places financially with your's in a NY minute.
Adam: why the magic number of 225 or so members before you need a tee sheet? Of these 225 members roughly a third to a half will play any given peak time (as they have other activities on a given day), so you need to send off 20-25 foursomes (guest play is generally precluded for peak tee times) for peak play periods. If the club runs 10 minute tee times, you get these groups out between 7 AM - 10 AM, so they finish by mid-afternoon, so they can spend time with the family. This is what the customer is looking for here in this part of the US (Northeast).
Also if your're a member of at a club with 225 others, you really aren't concerned with cost/round played since the economics don't work. What that customer wants is to "tee off when I want to and not have to wait on the 1st tee". You get that with a club mebership of 200-225 size. You may also get an apology from the golf professional upon arrival " Sorry mr. Jones, but you'll have to wait 15 minutes to tee off as Mr. Smith's group is on the tee....can we buy you a soft drink while you wait"?
Once above 225 members, the price point club entry and annual dues are lower, BUT, these members use the golf course more as the dues and fees may be a bit more of a stretch for them, thus the "need to get their money's worth" and play more to amortize their cost/round.
The vast majority of play happens the following times (60%-70% of your weekly member play):
Friday morning & Friday afternoon
Saturday morning
Sunday morning
Least used times are:
Tuesday & Thursday PM....that's when I like to play.
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Roger: I could not agree with you more. Every time I play a public course in the area I am reminded of why I belong to a private club. By no means is the club upscale but it offers me the opportunity to play more golf at a far quicker pace with people who care as much as I do about the game. There are certainly many people who play at public courses and feel the same way as I do but they choose to play at the public course and simply accept the compromises they have to make. To me, life is too short to worry about the immediate cost of something when it can make whatever time we have so much more enjoyable. Sure, if you are in a financial position where you have to think about whether you can afford to play that day then a private club is not in the picture. But don't complain about the cost of a club and then take a couple of expensive vacations every year - choices are made and everyone has a right to make their own decision. I am convinced that a private club does not have to equate with snobbery.
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Perhaps this is where many US clubs go wrong. A great many folks in the UK at least part analyse their membership by cost per round. I can guarantee you that if the cost was anywhere near $100 (seemingly not that high for many clubs) a game there would be far less golf clubs and golfers.
Ciao
You are right Sean. But the value of $100 is very different depending on your income. As long as their
are enough folks willing to pay to fill your membership roles, you have a pretty good model. Before
Wachovia killed Charlotte (August 2008) we were full with 30 on the waiting list and you had to pay
50% of the initiation to get on the list (plus we had been shut down for 10 months!)! Now we are
in good shape but the crisis (50 fewer members) resulted in unexpected dividends... a less crowded
course and a wonderful "excuse" to scale down the F&B operation.
We were going to breach the magic "$ per round" estimate but reined in the non golf overhead to
actually come in $5 per month cheaper. $325 plus a $150 per quarter food minimum turned into
$345 plus a $25 per month food minimum. I personally think we are a better product now than we
were in the boom boom years leading up to 2008.
One of the really interesting byproducts is that we have become a great "in town club" for folks who
have vacation homes and belong to ritzy clubs in the mountains, Pinehurst or at the beach. The quality
of the golf and the relatively inexpensive monthly bill has made it a great option for those whose $100
is equivalent to my $10.
I am sorry to ramble but I am very proud of our club, our board and our membership for bucking the
national trends and staying true to our mission as a golf club. The CMAA and the media and the experts
continue to push that clubs need to start moving away from golf and focus on wellness and waterparks
and trying to be everyone to every family. I heartily disagree. A country club is nothing without a solid
golf program. Clubs that lose their focus on golf have forgotten why they exist in the first place.
I am "just not a [country] club kinda guy." But I will gladly WORK AT or join true GOLFERS' clubs from here on out.
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Perhaps this is where many US clubs go wrong. A great many folks in the UK at least part analyse their membership by cost per round. I can guarantee you that if the cost was anywhere near $100 (seemingly not that high for many clubs) a game there would be far less golf clubs and golfers.
Ciao
You are right Sean. But the value of $100 is very different depending on your income. As long as their
are enough folks willing to pay to fill your membership roles, you have a pretty good model. Before
Wachovia killed Charlotte (August 2008) we were full with 30 on the waiting list and you had to pay
50% of the initiation to get on the list (plus we had been shut down for 10 months!)! Now we are
in good shape but the crisis (50 fewer members) resulted in unexpected dividends... a less crowded
course and a wonderful "excuse" to scale down the F&B operation.
We were going to breach the magic "$ per round" estimate but reined in the non golf overhead to
actually come in $5 per month cheaper. $325 plus a $150 per quarter food minimum turned into
$345 plus a $25 per month food minimum. I personally think we are a better product now than we
were in the boom boom years leading up to 2008.
One of the really interesting byproducts is that we have become a great "in town club" for folks who
have vacation homes and belong to ritzy clubs in the mountains, Pinehurst or at the beach. The quality
of the golf and the relatively inexpensive monthly bill has made it a great option for those whose $100
is equivalent to my $10.
I am sorry to ramble but I am very proud of our club, our board and our membership for bucking the
national trends and staying true to our mission as a golf club. The CMAA and the media and the experts
continue to push that clubs need to start moving away from golf and focus on wellness and waterparks
and trying to be everyone to every family. I heartily disagree. A country club is nothing without a solid
golf program. Clubs that lose their focus on golf have forgotten why they exist in the first place.
I am "just not a [country] club kinda guy." But I will gladly WORK AT or join true GOLFERS' clubs from here on out.
Roger, I am excited about playing at your place in the Dixie Cup!
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I think American Express sums it up best: "Membership has its privileges"
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With the "Private Clubs at a Crossroads" thread going on, - http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,67257.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,67257.0.html), I am positioning to join "The Bogey Club", I think. :) I no longer pay club dues this season for the first time in years. I hold a handicap at Lido Golf Course, a muni, have a $0.00 annual cost Life Membership at Enniscrone GC, but no club memberships.
Honestly, I love it and may catch the Charles Banks' Francis Byrne GC on the way home tonight if I have time = https://www.essexcountyparks.org/golf/francis-byrne-golf-course (https://www.essexcountyparks.org/golf/francis-byrne-golf-course). Shout out to Uncle George Bahto - RIP.
(http://www.bestoutings.com/UploadFiles/PotentialCourses/Photos/6646/Francis_A._Byrne_Golf_Course-photo.jpg)
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I'll either have to have no friends, no money or no health before I got no club.
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8)
Feel almost exactly the opposite regarding club membership. It’s great fun for me and the competitive side of golf drew me to it from the start. Just going out and playing for the love of the game sounds great but rings hollow for many.
So many of us played sports 🥎 growing up and it became a comfortable way to meet and interact with others. Nothing was more fun for me than playing basketball 🏀 with my friends and would still be my choice for recreation if able. Alas most of us would be in the hospital if we played into our fifties (40’s, 30’s?)
Say you get done work one day and don’t have time to play 18 holes but have the option of driving to your club and walking “the loop” or just hitting some balls and chipping and putting. It’s so nice to do.
Obviously price is a factor but golf is one of the only things I know of that costs less than it did 20 years ago if you aren’t too picky about where you join. Sure cheaper than fishing around here at the beach 🏖
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You can't go to a movie and call the people in the theater your friends. Just last week one of my opponents in a member/guest asked me how do I possible have any friends. My response was that is why I play poker and golf. When it comes to golf and poker you really don't have to like a guy to show up and spend a few hours having fun.
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;D
Jaka just too prescient re: friends. Likewise they wouldn’t hang with me if they couldn’t rob me a little
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I joined my first private club way back in the early '80's; I was looking for an affordable way to play a lot of golf, and didn't really want or expect much else. I ended up belonging to several different clubs over the next 30+ years as clubs changed ownership or prices or whatever. When I moved back to NC four years ago, there just weren't affordable private options that worked for me, so I have a "membership" at UNC Finley; good golf course, and great guys to play with, but it's a reduced fee package and in NO way to be confused (which I did at the outset) with a true membership.
And you know what? I miss the heck out of a club. I miss the regular games, I miss the regular groups, I miss sitting around with a pitcher of beer while $3 makes it's way around the table to settle bets; I miss it all, and I miss it a LOT more than I thought I would. It turns out that there ARE other ways to play a lot of golf affordably, but there aren't great substitutes for the other stuff that a club offers. Which is why there are clubs in the first place, I suppose.
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I joined my first private club way back in the early '80's; I was looking for an affordable way to play a lot of golf, and didn't really want or expect much else. I ended up belonging to several different clubs over the next 30+ years as clubs changed ownership or prices or whatever. When I moved back to NC four years ago, there just weren't affordable private options that worked for me, so I have a "membership" at UNC Finley; good golf course, and great guys to play with, but it's a reduced fee package and in NO way to be confused (which I did at the outset) with a true membership.
And you know what? I miss the heck out of a club. I miss the regular games, I miss the regular groups, I miss sitting around with a pitcher of beer while $3 makes it's way around the table to settle bets; I miss it all, and I miss it a LOT more than I thought I would. It turns out that there ARE other ways to play a lot of golf affordably, but there aren't great substitutes for the other stuff that a club offers. Which is why there are clubs in the first place, I suppose.
AG,
I find that very touching and is my greatest fear as I face retirement.
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8)
A.G. you hit the nail right on the head...wish you could play with us here in Jersey (South)
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I joined my first private club way back in the early '80's; I was looking for an affordable way to play a lot of golf, and didn't really want or expect much else. I ended up belonging to several different clubs over the next 30+ years as clubs changed ownership or prices or whatever. When I moved back to NC four years ago, there just weren't affordable private options that worked for me, so I have a "membership" at UNC Finley; good golf course, and great guys to play with, but it's a reduced fee package and in NO way to be confused (which I did at the outset) with a true membership.
And you know what? I miss the heck out of a club. I miss the regular games, I miss the regular groups, I miss sitting around with a pitcher of beer while $3 makes it's way around the table to settle bets; I miss it all, and I miss it a LOT more than I thought I would. It turns out that there ARE other ways to play a lot of golf affordably, but there aren't great substitutes for the other stuff that a club offers. Which is why there are clubs in the first place, I suppose.
That sounds exactly like what you will find at most private members' clubs in the UK.
The big difference is that the average cost over here for full membership giving unlimited golf is less than $1500 per year. Most clubs don't have initiations.
Most clubs are also desperately short of members.
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I am a member of three private clubs that all cost less that $1,000 per year. None of which I have yet to play this year. $500, $500, $800 specifically. My Dad told me once, "Just because you may not enjoy playing somewhere you still do everything you can for those who do." Given the role that golf has played in my life how can I not spend $3 a day to keep the game going where I live. Not to mention each place pours me a nice drink and doesn't complain about my cigar.
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I'll either have to have no friends, no money or no health before I got no club.
+1
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I am a member of three private clubs that all cost less that $1,000 per year. None of which I have yet to play this year. $500, $500, $800 specifically. My Dad told me once, "Just because you may not enjoy playing somewhere you still do everything you can for those who do." Given the role that golf has played in my life how can I not spend $3 a day to keep the game going where I live. Not to mention each place pours me a nice drink and doesn't complain about my cigar.
Very cool - mind naming the 3 clubs?
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Kavanaugh,
It really warms my heart that you're so concerned for these 'lesser clubs" whose members i'm guessing are already somewhere between well-off and wealthy.
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Kavanaugh,
It really warms my heart that you're so concerned for these 'lesser clubs" whose members i'm guessing are already somewhere between well-off and wealthy.
Kalen-How do you come to the conclusion that someone that paid $500 or $800 for an annual golf membership is “somewhere between well off and wealthy”? Guys that fish off a pier pay more for bait.
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The clubs are:
Lawrence County Country Club. Played by both Adam Clayman and Nigel Islam.
Olde Country Club of Vincennes. Formally The Elks. An old L&M design.
Quail Creek Country Club. Home of the Heath Open. A PGA Tour Event for many years.
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There are many reasons to belong to a golf club (which is very different from a country club). On one level there is the camaraderie of friends, companions, and competitors. There are other things as well. I like inviting a guest knowing what his favorite food is then calling the club to be certain that it is available when we eat dinner. I like getting to the club and the pro telling me that X is on the practice tee, if I'm looking for some kind of match. I like making a last minute decision to play, get to the club and walk out on the tee without a tee time. If the first tee is busy just jump in a cart and drive to an open hole. I like it that sometimes when a single catches our group, he just drives around us rather than inconvenience us while he plays through. There are so many little things that make a club an enjoyment that we can't get in many places.
I remember once when I was on a ski trip I decided to cook salmon for dinner. I called the chef at the club, who is known to all the members, and asked for advice. She was tickled I asked her and I was thrilled with the way the salmon tasted. She then swore me to secrecy about the recipe. In some ways a club can be an extension of your home.
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Kavanaugh,
It really warms my heart that you're so concerned for these 'lesser clubs" whose members i'm guessing are already somewhere between well-off and wealthy.
Kalen-How do you come to the conclusion that someone that paid $500 or $800 for an annual golf membership is “somewhere between well off and wealthy”? Guys that fish off a pier pay more for bait.
I believe they are a similar demographic to the members of U.K. clubs. Basically just good people that love golf. It is not at all uncommon to see a big turnout anytime donations of time or money are needed.
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Kavanaugh,
It really warms my heart that you're so concerned for these 'lesser clubs" whose members i'm guessing are already somewhere between well-off and wealthy.
Kalen-How do you come to the conclusion that someone that paid $500 or $800 for an annual golf membership is “somewhere between well off and wealthy”? Guys that fish off a pier pay more for bait.
I believe they are a similar demographic to the members of U.K. clubs. Basically just good people that love golf. It is not at all uncommon to see a big turnout anytime donations of time or money are needed.
Nice job Kalen! You turned a Monopolist into a sympathetic figure. ??? ::) :) :D
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;D
Kalen I'm jumping on the pile. Would snarky fit when describing your last post?
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Kavanaugh can take it....
I guess I need to make sure to do a Dan Kelly and use Emoticons next time! ;D ;D ::) :P
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Kavanaugh can take it....
I guess I need to make sure to do a Dan Kelly and use Emoticons next time! ;D ;D ::) :P
I'd be shocked if anyone believes that you were joking. It's a common misperception that the US doesn't provide affordable club golf. You were mistaken. No big deal.
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Given the role that golf has played in my life how can I not spend $3 a day to keep the game going where I live. Not to mention each place pours me a nice drink and doesn't complain about my cigar.
More than one way to be a custodian of the game. And all that without a Mackenzie bag or head covers for alignment sticks.
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I am a member of three private clubs that all cost less that $1,000 per year. None of which I have yet to play this year. $500, $500, $800 specifically. My Dad told me once, "Just because you may not enjoy playing somewhere you still do everything you can for those who do." Given the role that golf has played in my life how can I not spend $3 a day to keep the game going where I live. Not to mention each place pours me a nice drink and doesn't complain about my cigar.
This all day. Just looked at the website for the modest "club" where I grew up. Senior single can join for $372 and pay $64/month. Dues were $15/month in the 70's. The forestation is awful, but with a crew of four and a weekend I could knock out the 33 trees I've counted that need to go. What's left is simple golf at its 3,000 yards of firm and fast fairways and tiny pushed up greens. I drive 6 hours round trip once a year to pay my $30 and go around a couple of times by myself. County has 15% unemployment rate and the club is dying a slow death. If I was any man at all I'd join. Barney would.
Maybe we should hold the Dixie Cup there with a work day added on.
Bogey
Class of 76
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Kavanaugh can take it....
I guess I need to make sure to do a Dan Kelly and use Emoticons next time! ;D ;D ::) :P
I'd be shocked if anyone believes that you were joking. It's a common misperception that the US doesn't provide affordable club golf. You were mistaken. No big deal.
Its all good JK, wouldn't be the first time that's happened...
P.S. What were the initiation fees and/or special assessments on those places over the years? Or minimum F&Bs?
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Kalen, stay in your lane. I'm guessing the F&B minimum at LCC is an 8-pack of Miller Ponies and one Stewart Sandwich a week. Perhaps Barney knocks down his share of pork rinds too.
Bogey
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Kalen, stay in your lane. I'm guessing the F&B minimum at LCC is an 8-pack of Miller Ponies and one Stewart Sandwich a week. I'm guessing Barney knocks down his share of pork rinds too.
Bogey
Its all good Bogey, I've stated from the start I've never belonged to a private club, just a mens club at a public course....
Just asking questions..
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I'm envious - in a good way, not the current, en vogue angry way - of JK, AG, Archie, Duncan, etc, that they can be members of a club. I sure hope to, someday.
I will say, heading out to my local muni every Saturday morning 20+ years ago felt like a private club. And to me, that's the real essence of the game.
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I joined my first private golf club at 23 years of age. It was a 9 hole course in a rural town in the South. I played after work when I could and on weekends with a great group of guys from every walk of life. I was the "Kid" and they were happy to welcome me into their world. I learned a lot about life and how to navigate it. It was not just a place to play golf. These are experiences you don't get by clicking GolfNow and changing your shoes in parking lot of the public course that is currently discounted.
It was tough financially in those early years, but I soon began to consider the cost of private golf to be a life necessity and not a luxury. I have never calculated what I was paying vs. rounds played or totaled up the lost equity and initiation fees. That is just dumb as golf was not all I was purchasing. When I hear that talk, I think about the saying that describes knowing the cost of everything and value of nothing.
Fourteen private clubs later, I am no longer the "Kid". Some of those clubs were great, some were not. If I could go back in time, I would change nothing.
When I hear someone say all they want is pure golf, golf at it's least expensive price point, nothing included that they don't like,,,,,,,,, I feel sorry for them.
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It was not just a place to play golf. These are experiences you don't get by clicking GolfNow and changing your shoes in parking lot of the public course that is currently discounted.
Daryl,
I thought yours was a great post in the defense of private golf, but this is GCA.com and I am calling you out on it!! :)
I have changed my shoes in the parking lots of some really awesome golf courses, both public and private - Yale, Cape Arundel, Kittansett, Bethpage, National Golf Links of America (clubhouse was closed), Sankaty Head, Merion East (snuck on, got caught!!), Merion West (no clubhouse), Prouts Neck.... Funny thing is, I would never change my shoes in the parking lot of a Overseas Club, which are mostly open to public tee times.
My favorite club is Pine Valley Golf Club. Sure, it is complicated to get inside the gates, and there are thousands of lawyers that will define its "private status", but when you do get inside the place, it was the MOST public course that I have every played. By that I mean the caddies, the bartenders, the staff, and the guest were all treated the same way by our host. At least that was my experience on two occasions. Archie can school me now, because with close to a thousand members, there will be "stories".
I loved George Pazin's explanation of "his club". I guess I am a "club kind of guy", but I want my club to be defined by the golfers, and not the lawyers.
First Tee at Goat Hill Golf Club: Oceanside, California, July 2018
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