Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: James Boon on June 18, 2010, 04:27:09 AM
-
I just got a copy of the latest Golf World over here in the UK, the July Edition, and there is a great annotated aerial photo of Pebble Beach. The thing which really stood out for me was the notes for the 7th hole:
The iconic 7th hole, a tiny 109 yard par 3, wouldn't have happened if Jack Nicklaus had designed Pebble. "I'd have probably walked right by it, because it doesn't look there's enough room for a hole."
As most modern courses don't seem to have these joyful little par 3s anymore, I'd be interested to hear peoples comments on this quote (article doesn't state from when) from Jack Nicklaus? Personally, it always winds me up when there is a one hundred and something yard walk between holes and it looks like you could squeeze a cute little par 3 in that land...
Cheers,
James
-
Personally, it always winds me up when there is a one hundred and something yard walk between holes and it looks like you could squeeze a cute little par 3 in that land...
But in many cases you would end up with a 19 hole course...
Think Ron Whitten has an article in Golf Digest talking about all the changes over the years etc...
-
#13 at Merion is the epitome on the east coast for me (having not seen Pine Valley, et al.) Pitch it in there, avoid the bunkers, have a run at deuce. Take it for granted for one iota of a moment and it will cost you. Pebble's 7th is unique for the complete exposure to the wind and the potential shift from sand wedge to 5 iron on hurricane-force days of wind.
The key, in my estimation, is to find a way to protect a smallish green with something along the sides, while leaving at least four hole locations on the green, while making the green undulating and interesting, while...in other words, no easy task.
-
The key, in my estimation, is to find a way to protect a smallish green with something along the sides, while leaving at least four hole locations on the green, while making the green undulating and interesting, while...in other words, no easy task.
Ronald, a very close description of the 7th at Barnbougle Dunes. The hole, which plays at about 110yds, has ample room to be much longer but any added distance would add to the walk to the 8th tee, which is probably the longest such walk on the course
-
Every course should have one.
Anthony
-
Playing at 99 yards today, according to NBC graphic.
Is this the first tournament hole to break 100?
-
Playing at 99 yards today, according to NBC graphic.
Is this the first tournament hole to break 100?
Matthew--
They have been saying that #7 is shorter than any other US Open hole post-WWII, which leads me to believe that there were some holes that were shorter than 99.
Also, how can people praise the 7th at Pebble Beach but lambast a hole like #9 at Caledonia, which is a very similar kind of hole? Big double-standard.
-
Playing at 99 yards today, according to NBC graphic.
Is this the first tournament hole to break 100?
No...it ties for shortest U.S. Open hole...10 at inwood C.C. is also 99 yards and was in 1923 for the Open. Rand Jerris confirmed.
-
I think this is a devil of a hole. Very tough to work a shot into that front hole location, even with a lob wedge. What a concept. A difficult lob shot. I like just about any type of really short par 3, myself.
-
Is there a hole on the course that has been less interesting to watch than this one today? It has been over an hour and a half since anyone differentiated a tee shot good or bad here. I think the pin they've got toda makes this a bore with no options when the greens are as firm as they are right now.
-
For the record I posted that exactly 1 minute before Johnson almost holed out from the tee.
-
For the record I posted that exactly 1 minute before Johnson almost holed out from the tee.
That kid Johnson is amazing. Just totally amazing. Really fun to watch for sure. That was an awesome shot.
-
I found Ian Poulter's tirade after his tee shot at #7 today humorous. He, like much of the rest of the field (except for Dustin Johnson) blew his 60* wedge through the back of the green. The camera then stayed on him as he yelled out "HOW AM I SUPPOSED TO PLAY TO THAT?!!?" I'm assuming he was being critical of the pin postion and saying that it was basically in a position that was inaccessible. Someone should show him Johnson's shot, which was a kick in birdie. I think it's a great hole. 99 yards today, playing over par. Today's pin really demanded a great shot for a birdie opportunity.
-
I think its quite interesting that a 99 yard hole that plays over par is lauded and said to be great while a 225 yard hole that plays over par is said to be unfair. Seems to me that the 225 yard hole is the easier shot. Other than Dustin Johnson, no one in the last however many groups hit a shot on the front 1/3 of that green, everyone else (that I saw) was on the back part of the green or even in the rough. I just don't get it.
-
I found Ian Poulter's tirade after his tee shot at #7 today humorous. He, like much of the rest of the field (except for Dustin Johnson) blew his 60* wedge through the back of the green. The camera then stayed on him as he yelled out "HOW AM I SUPPOSED TO PLAY TO THAT?!!?" I'm assuming he was being critical of the pin postion and saying that it was basically in a position that was inaccessible. Someone should show him Johnson's shot, which was a kick in birdie. I think it's a great hole. 99 yards today, playing over par. Today's pin really demanded a great shot for a birdie opportunity.
Yeah, I hope he watches Sports Center and sees how Johnson hit the front of the green with spin and had a one footer....That will answer Poulters pouty question!
-
James
I love the setting and distance combined with the elevation change. It's a priceless combination for mine.
-
James
I love the setting and distance combined with the elevation change. It's a priceless combination for mine.
OK, sure, its a great combination, but how great a hole is it really? I mean, guys can't get a lob wedge to hold the green? Thats as bad as having to hit a 3 wood into that kitchen table size area on the back of 17.
-
Is there a hole on the course that has been less interesting to watch than this one today? It has been over an hour and a half since anyone differentiated a tee shot good or bad here. I think the pin they've got toda makes this a bore with no options when the greens are as firm as they are right now.
Why the hate?
I have a feeling if you put 7 at Pebble on Cypress and had the pros play it, it would immediately become 'more interesting' to watch to you, no?
Do you not like the hole?
-
Every course should have one.
Anthony
And so we shall. Ironically our new 7th will be on a little outcropping in the ocean that Jack may have "walked right by" back in 1990. Better late than never and it will be a major improvement to an already wonderful golf course.
-
Poulter tweeted this after his round:
fun round of golf, you dont like my comment on the 7th, well the green was hard to hold but dustin hit it to 6" so i guess im just pants LOL
-
Is there a hole on the course that has been less interesting to watch than this one today? It has been over an hour and a half since anyone differentiated a tee shot good or bad here. I think the pin they've got toda makes this a bore with no options when the greens are as firm as they are right now.
Why the hate?
I have a feeling if you put 7 at Pebble on Cypress and had the pros play it, it would immediately become 'more interesting' to watch to you, no?
Do you not like the hole?
You could put that hole anywhere and it would be no more or less silly than it was yesterday. We bitch about pro's not being able to hit the green with 3 woods and long irons, but think its the best thing ever that they can't hold the green with wedges? Thats a really stupid double standard. And this doesn't even have anything to do with being out of position, they are in the only possible position and can't hold the green. Something is either not right with that picture, or the 17th is looking like a better hole by the minute.
-
The wind makes a big difference as when the hole plays into a breeze, even a light breeze, it is much easier to hold the green.
-
Is there a hole on the course that has been less interesting to watch than this one today? It has been over an hour and a half since anyone differentiated a tee shot good or bad here. I think the pin they've got toda makes this a bore with no options when the greens are as firm as they are right now.
Why the hate?
I have a feeling if you put 7 at Pebble on Cypress and had the pros play it, it would immediately become 'more interesting' to watch to you, no?
Do you not like the hole?
You could put that hole anywhere and it would be no more or less silly than it was yesterday. We bitch about pro's not being able to hit the green with 3 woods and long irons, but think its the best thing ever that they can't hold the green with wedges? Thats a really stupid double standard. And this doesn't even have anything to do with being out of position, they are in the only possible position and can't hold the green. Something is either not right with that picture, or the 17th is looking like a better hole by the minute.
I don't think there's a double standard anywhere, and actually what you just said is pretty clueless.
Any one of the pro's out there could hit that green and hold it - easily.
Dustin Johnson, John? All it takes is a well executed shot, and that should be easy from, oh, 99 yards downhill.
-
Jordan, I saw Dustin Johnson's shot on 7 and jumped out of my seat yelling. Now, name me 10 other golfers who hit a ball within 10 feet of that pin on their tee shot yesterday.
And maybe if you'd read the thread about 17 you'd see what I mean. 17 is said to be horrific, unfair, terrible, etc., because guys can't get shots to hold on the green. Yet, 7 is praised and its equally difficult to hold that green. You tell me.
But by all means, to go back to my first point, name me 10 golfers who hit a tee shot within 10 feet of that pin on #7 yesterday, excluding Dustin Johnson (and based on what he said while that ball was in the air, I think he didn't hit that shot like he wanted. Sounded to me like he thought he'd dumped it in the front bunker)
-
10 people made birdie yesterday, John. (57 pars, 16 bogeys)
-
10 people made birdie yesterday, John. (57 pars, 16 bogeys)
So a 99 yard hole played 6 over par...hmmm. Do they have a average putt length for people hitting the green in regulation? Take out the outlier that is Dustin Johnson, and I'd bet that the average is 25+ feet. I can promise that with all the shots I saw yesterday, with the lone exception of Johnson, no one was on the front third of the green.
But as a technicality, I had asked Jordan to name 10 golfers other that DJ who hit their tee shot within 10 feet, not how many birdies there were. ;) ;D
OK, let me add something to this. The commentator on 7 said that players were "just trying to get this shot on the green today." How is that a decent hole really? Padraig Harrington just hit a near perfect shot and couldn't get it to stay within 20 feet. >:(
-
John...
the hole is 100 yards (or so)...the holes defense centers on how difficult it is to get close to the hole. A miracle chip and/or putt is what the golfer is asked to pull off.
That is the entire deal.
You can't have a 100 yard hole that is easy to get close to the hole. Then you are giving the players a free birdie. Wouldn't that be a much worse hole?
-
The thing I found interesting with the Nicklaus quote in my original post, is that he could have walked past that piece of land and not seen a golf hole there. How many other courses has Nicklaus designed where he missed some stunning little par 3s because there didn't look to be enough room? Does he only see 200 yard par 3s?
I've not played this hole, but everything I've seen in photos and on TV I really like it. What I really like is that it can generate a reaction like it did from Poulter yesterday, but I also like that Poulter can respond to his own outburst as he did on Twitter.
Interesting how the greens at Pebble are so small that two of the shots we remember most are the Watson and Kite chip ins on 17 and 7 respectivly.
Cheers,
James
-
John...
the hole is 100 yards (or so)...the holes defense centers on how difficult it is to get close to the hole. A miracle chip and/or putt is what the golfer is asked to pull off.
That is the entire deal.
You can't have a 100 yard hole that is easy to get close to the hole. Then you are giving the players a free birdie. Wouldn't that be a much worse hole?
It doesn't have to be easy, but this is near impossible. And actually, no, I think a par 2 1/2 hole would be a great thing. Make the hole an easy birdie, shrink the green, etc., do whatever. But take the 17th at Tobacco Road, that hole, to me, is a 2 1/2 par hole. And I think its great. I have nothing against a hole like that. But #7 as currently presented borders on silly. I mean, come on, the goal from 100 yards aught not be to simply get the ball on the green somewhere.
-
We had a US Open fact question out there about the shortest US Open hole. That day #7 was playing at 99 yards which I believe tied it as the shortest in the US Open with Inwood's #10 in 1923. Today's #7 pin is at 92 yards making it the shortest.
-
James
I love the setting and distance combined with the elevation change. It's a priceless combination for mine.
OK, sure, its a great combination, but how great a hole is it really? I mean, guys can't get a lob wedge to hold the green? Thats as bad as having to hit a 3 wood into that kitchen table size area on the back of 17.
John,
This is more of a setup issue than the design of the hole. Its a great hole, but I do think the green is a bit too firm.
-
James
I love the setting and distance combined with the elevation change. It's a priceless combination for mine.
OK, sure, its a great combination, but how great a hole is it really? I mean, guys can't get a lob wedge to hold the green? Thats as bad as having to hit a 3 wood into that kitchen table size area on the back of 17.
And wouldn't a slightly softer green do the exact same thing to 17 as well? In all reality, are these greens as a whole perhaps slightly too firm, making it difficult for even well struck, or near perfectly struck shots to hold the proper places in the greens?
John,
This is more of a setup issue than the design of the hole. Its a great hole, but I do think the green is a bit too firm.
-
John,
I think the greens are a smidge too firm given their size, but this is the US Open and that is the way of the USGA. I just don't think its fair to hold that against the golf course. I do think its fun to watch the best players in the world have to tackle the course at its hardest--some holes and pin placements are accessible and others require them to take their medicine and play cautiously. I don't see anything wrong with that ideal for this championship.
-
John,
I think the greens are a smidge too firm given their size, but this is the US Open and that is the way of the USGA. I just don't think its fair to hold that against the golf course. I do think its fun to watch the best players in the world have to tackle the course at its hardest--some holes and pin placements are accessible and others require them to take their medicine and play cautiously. I don't see anything wrong with that ideal for this championship.
But they are really pushing the edge, really close. I don't think we'll see any of the holes turn into something like the par 3 (7th??) at Shinnecock Hills in 2004, but 14 has potential to turn into something ridiculous. I'd like to see the greens slightly softer, but only slightly.