Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Geoffrey_Walsh on June 10, 2010, 11:29:15 PM
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Paging Phillip Young - I saw on another thread that they are softening the 15th green. Please tell me they are not doing anything to drastic other than trying to add a front pin position. Any other changes contemplated? Is this a good indication of our national championship possibly coming back to The People's Course?
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Geoff,
The green was "softened" over the winter. I haven't seen it yet but will be in New York in two weeks and intend to go by and have a look.
The decision to do this was NOT at the behest of the USGA, though in speaking with Mike Davis about it, he feels that it was a good idea because it will allow for more hole locations. I am not so sure.
The "softening" will have nothing to do with getting the Open back to Bethpage. The main problem is Albany and the atmosphere of the government in charge when negotiations take place. Now that two Opens have been held there the thinking is akin to the federal government after we landed in the moon... been there, done that so how will doing this help me politically now? The greatest danger are the rumors I hear about drastic maintenance budget cuts for the facility that the"bean counters" are urging. Some of the rumors are in the range of close to 50%!
Despite that, the USGA needs Bethpage in its rotation of courses. It is certainly worthy as a challenge and definitely provides a positive cash flow in amounts that far exceed all other venues. If anything, that alone will bring it back...
Finally, a balance does have to struck as the USGA also wants to have Opens held at both Winged Foot and Shinnecock again. It is my understanding that "quiet" talks have been going on at both for some time.
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bring it back for the weather, if nothing else...two Opens, rain and muck in both, what's not to like?
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Thats very unfortunate. I think the 15th green is one of the more unique ones on the course. (not to mention my favorite hole)
Mark
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Mark, I agree. I am very proud of my 8-putt that I took way back when someone decided they wanted to have a little fun and put the hole on the very crest of the front fall away... The putt I finally made was a hell of a 15-footer from behind the hole after I got mad at my first 6 attempts all were about two inches short and came back down to me and hit the 7th a bit "firm"...
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Mark, I agree. I am very proud of my 8-putt that I took way back when someone decided they wanted to have a little fun and put the hole on the very crest of the front fall away... The putt I finally made was a hell of a 15-footer from behind the hole after I got mad at my first 6 attempts all were about two inches short and came back down to me and hit the 7th a bit "firm"...
Thats quite the accomplishment. I will miss the old green for sure as well....Nothing like missing a 3 footer that you tried to be firm with and ending up 30 feet away on the fringe.
Mark
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Geoffrey:
Softening the 15th green is a relative term -- there needs to be a frontal pin placement -- without compromising the existing contour too greatly.
If there's a hole that needs a total change -- it's not the 15th -- head over to the 18th instead.
One other thing -- heard on the grapevine -- SH will likely be the next Open site on the LI before the Black.
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I played a few weeks ago. It has been softened a lot in my opinion. At least one front hole location now.
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Chip,
What concerns me is the manner in which it was softened. Can you provide any details?
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I thought I took some pictures but it looks like I didn't, or at least I can't find them.
The main thing I noticed was the that pronounced ridge that ran diagonal up the green has been soften to the point I wouldn't even call it a ridge as much a green that simply tilts back to front now. It looks like they may have expanded the back left of the green a little as well to get another position pin back there, but I am guessing on that.
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Chip, et al:
Keep this in mind the real "back tee" has never been used in th US Open -- that's where the grandstands have been. If mempry serves, Phil Y can correct me, I believe the hole from the extreme back tee is nearer to 480 yards. When you couple the uphill approach it makes things very demanding -- even if the green is modified to some degree.
Just realize, I believe, stroke average has been around 4.6.
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Chip,
I am glad to hear of the expansion. That is one of the greens whose original putting surface was never recovered and I've been pushing them to do. Hoping to see some others having been done as well.
Matt, to my knowledge, the back tee has never been used to this day.
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I did a 3D model of the old green. There are a couple of images below.
(http://public.blu.livefilestore.com/y1pWtey5PIiOR-XkNabvkUy0XEWQdCcm_j0t58hWRZT7vYWxVsUeJOwtjOQgUIM4c7ym49eRJd3Wu6Ox_IoceKDoA/Bethpage%2015%20green.jpg?psid=1)
(http://public.blu.livefilestore.com/y1phtLqomEtz2Z68-hoVNwpn8aYGGjaD7_5mkpWXCNUgOrgCnwbu-wBnZeJiymZNksEjh0vN0IXcuLKFuM9H1w6tA/Bethpage%2015%20green%20on%20axis.jpg?psid=1)
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If you'd like to take a look at the sketchup model, go to the link below and download it.
http://cid-f73fd6728c175582.office.live.com/self.aspx/Bethpage%20Black/Bethpage%2015%20green.skp (http://cid-f73fd6728c175582.office.live.com/self.aspx/Bethpage%20Black/Bethpage%2015%20green.skp)
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Of all the long par-4's played in major championship golf the 15th at BB is on the very short list for being one of the most demanding. No doubt the 17th at TOC likely draws top building and will likely get even more fanfare tied to the new tee being played this year.
The 15th at BB is just a bear - and what makes it even more remarkable is that the general prevailing wind is with the player during the summer months.
Be interesting to see when the Met Open is played at BB where the tee blocks are set for the 15th hole.