Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Keith OHalloran on June 10, 2010, 09:18:28 PM
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ESPN has published a list of its 50 hardest courses. The highest I have played on this list is Bethpage Black. I am currently a shaky 8 handicap, and I feel like the black course is just too hard to enjoy on a regular basis. I was wondering if anyone feels like any of these highly ranked courses are actually playable on a daily basis.
Also, I personally am surprised that Oak Hill East was not on this list, I found that course very difficult as well, especially if you hit above the holes.
1. THE OCEAN COURSE | Kiawah Island, S.C.
2. THE INTERNATIONAL | Bolton, Mass.
3. KOOLAU | Kaneohe, Hawaii (Oahu)
4. PGA WEST/STADIUM | La Quinta, Calif.
5. OAKMONT | Oakmont, Pa.
6. BETHPAGE/BLACK | Farmingdale, N.Y.
7. TOT HILL FARM | Asheboro, N.C.
8. WHISTLING STRAITS/STRAITS | Haven, Wis.
9. PINE VALLEY | Pine Valley, N.J.
10. TOBACCO ROAD | Sanford, N.C.
11. WINGED FOOT/WEST | Mamaroneck, N.Y.
12. MEDALIST | Hobe Sound, Fla.
13. DESERT MOUNTAIN/RENEGADE | Scottsdale, Ariz.
14. TPC SAWGRASS/PLAYERS | Ponte Vedra Beach, Fla.
15. HALLBROOK | Leawood, Kan.
16. ROYAL NEW KENT | Providence Forge, Va.
17. BLACKWOLF RUN/RIVER | Kohler, Wis.
18. GRAND TRAVERSE/BEAR | Acme, Mich.
19. OAK TREE NATIONAL | Edmond, Okla.
20. CONCORD/MONSTER | Kiamesha Lake, N.Y.
21. WOLF RUN | Zionsville, Ind.
22. SILVER LAKES | Glencoe, Ala.
23. BUTLER NATIONAL | Oak Brook, Ill.
24. SPYGLASS HILL | Pebble Beach, Calif.
25. PURGATORY | Noblesville, Ind.
SECOND 25
26. P.B. DYE | Ijamsville, Md.
27. THE SHOALS/FIGHTING JOE | Muscle Shoals, Ala.
28. OLD MARSH | Palm Beach Gardens, Fla.
29. ROCHELLE RANCH | Rawlins, Wyo.
30. BULL VALLEY | Woodstock, Ill.
31. WOLF CREEK | Mesquite, Nev.
32. PINEHURST/No. 2 | Pinehurst, N.C.
33. LA PURISIMA | Lompoc, Calif.
34. LOBLOLLY | Hobe Sound, Fla.
35. BAYONET | Seaside, Calif.
36. CRYSTAL SPRINGS | Hamburg, N.J.
37. LEGENDS/MOORLAND | Myrtle Beach, S.C.
38. DIAMANTE | Hot Springs Village, Ark.
39. ROSS BRIDGE | Hoover, Ala.
40. STONE HARBOR | Cape May Court House, N.J.
41. MEDINAH/No. 3 | Medinah, Ill.
42. COLBERT HILLS | Manhattan, Kan.
43. THE SHATTUCK | Jaffrey, N.H.
44. YALE | New Haven, Conn.
45. MONTOUR HEIGHTS | Coraopolis, Pa.
46. THUNDERHILL | Madison, Ohio
47. ORONOQUE | Stratford, Conn.
48. TEAL WING | Hayward, Wis.
49. MOOSE RUN/CREEK | Fort Richardson, Alaska
50. FURNACE CREEK | Death Valley, Calif.
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I am glad not to have any courses on their list. But, clearly, they can't get on Sebonack.
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I played Purgatory awhile back, I was probably about a 5 or 6 at the time. I actually enjoyed the course. I played it at about 7,300 yards, but it was the middle of summer and was playing pretty fast. I was expecting a gimmicky course due to the name and the length, but I thought it had a lot of good holes. It was long but the holes were fair.
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I think that #7 and #10 have no business being on this list. #46 is harder than the both of those combined.
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Among these I've played Ko'olau, PGA West Stadium, Wolf Creek, and La Purisima.
Ko'olau has too many forced carries for the average golfer and is wet year round.
PGA West is fun from the right tees and with no wind. I was lucky to play it in little wind and hit all 9 greens on the front!
Wolf Creek is really hard and could be a lot higher. By far the toughest 6,100 yard course I've ever played from the blue tees.
La Purisima is a fun and interesting track. While difficult, I think it's playable on a daily basis. I'm playing there next week.
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I think that Strantz would be pissed to find two of his courses on this list.
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Tom Doak, I have never been foolish enough to try Sebonack from the championship tees, but even from the tees I have played, it could make the list.
Also, can you shed some light onto the thought process of design in regard to difficulty? Does the client have as much, or more, influence on the difficulty than the land itself?
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I played Koolau last year. While challenging with some tight fairways and approaches I don't believe it is one of the most difficult courses in the U.S. If you can't put the ball in the air, you'd be in trouble. If you add Oakmont greens, then it would get there. It has an slope of 152(!) from the back tees but I believe it is less of a monster than it was a few years ago. That being said, I loved the setting. It's worth a play for that alone.
I'm also surprised seeing the River course at #17 and PB Dye at #26.
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I think that Strantz would be pissed to find two of his courses on this list.
Three actually - Tot Hill Farm, Tobacco Road, and Royal New Kent. The fact that RNK is ranked lower than either of those is a joke, especially given the condition they keep the course in these days - probably 50% of the green surface area is unpinnable with those speeds.
Further, who decided PB Dye in Ijamsville, MD was a difficult course?
And, is it me, or is that just an odd collection of courses? Just the fact that Pinehurst #2 is ranked #32 makes me laugh. And it's probably the only list ever created where the Legends-Moorland course and Pine Valley are both on it.
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When they say "hardest" I think you have to differentiate between courses where you can take a 12 on one hole and courses that are relentlessly difficult to make a par.
Fenway is hard and ranks up there with Winged Foot and Quaker Ridge.
Bayonne is hard, but, not in the same light.
At Bayonne, you can easily take a 12, but, par may not be so difficult.
I've only played 14 of the 50.
I would also ask, "hardest" for whom ?
The PGA Tour Pro, Nationwide Pro, Pro, College scholarship golfer, good amateur, average amateur, poor amateur, or all of the above ?
Doesn't length ALWAYS equate to difficulty ?
No you say ?
From the back tees, what's the shortest hard course on that 50 list and what's the yardage.
Does an abundance of water equate to difficulty ?
What happens when you combine length with water ?
Do you get a course that no one wants to play ?
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I thought Tobacco Rd was easy, shot 70 my one and only time there. Loved it forever.
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I have a friend who just joined Old Hickory (PB Dye) near St Louis and was a 4 index at his old course. His goal this summer is to break 80 at 73.8/140 from 6800 yards.
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ESPN's never played Ballyhack.
WW
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Wonder what makes Furnace Creek hard? The possibility of heat stroke? Dehydration?
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Doesn't length ALWAYS equate to difficulty ?
No you say ?
From the back tees, what's the shortest hard course on that 50 list and what's the yardage.
Tobacco Road from the back tees is 6554 with a slope of 150 and rating of 73.2
Tot Hill Farm from the back tees is 6543 with slope of 138 and rating of 72.5
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Keith,
With over 400 rounds on the Black I would disagree with your opinion, "The highest I have played on this list is Bethpage Black. I am currently a shaky 8 handicap, and I feel like the black course is just too hard to enjoy on a regular basis. I was wondering if anyone feels like any of these highly ranked courses are actually playable on a daily basis..."
I have always found it electrifying, stimulating, energizing and fun... Of course, as most of these rounds came in my youth when Bethpage was really the only available course that I could afford (from 1967-early 1980's it was from $5-7 per round. Pull cart an extra 1.50) to expend my passion for the game on, that may explain it. Still, I wish I could play it far more often than the once-a-year trip I make... By the way, two weeks from now I'll be able to give my opinion on the "softened green" of #15...
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I've played Purgatory and the PGA Stadium Course, both from the tips. I've at least broken 40 for nine holes on each course (39 on the front at PGA West, 38 on the back at Purgatory).
Compared to those two, honestly, the most difficult course I've ever played is Purdue University's Kampen Course from the tips. It's always tough, especially at 7,450 from the back tees. But I played it a week and half before the NCAA Championships a few years ago, and under those conditions, I've never played a course anywhere near as difficult. The first cut of rough was four inches. 8-10 yards in, it was 7-8 inches deep. I lost a ball in the rough, dropped one, hit it ten yards, and almost lost that one. In the NCAA's, the second player to hit on the first day hit one five yards off the first fairway. Three players, two spotters, and five minutes of looking later, he had to go back and re-tee.
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Koolau is vary hard because it's narrow and you can't recover from a wayward shot - off the fairway and it's a lost ball.
I loved playing Stadium West - the big, deep bunkers are what makes it so tough - very difficult to hit the ball 20 feet up a steep wall.
Bethpage Black just beat me up with it's length - I am a bogey golfer and the length required to get onto the greens is just very demanding.
Pine Vallley - I have not played it, but I walked it during a Crump Cup - I realized that it was designed to test your game and beat you up - I would have to put it very close to the top of this list. There is no way I could score here.
I don't think the Mike Stranz courses belong here - I found all three of them playable and fair - a little quirky I agree, but certainly not all that difficult.
The most difficult on my list is Cottonwood Valley in Hutchison, KS - a Nick Faldo creation of exceptional difficulty. Long, punishing, hit a good shot and it's in the crap. I just didn't know where to aim and hit a shot that would be rewarded - a mystery from the first hole.
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I can't imagine they compiled that list strictly with the lower-handicapper in mind. Having played both THF and TR, I find neither course to be particularly difficult. Same goes for Moorland. Yale is tough, but not THAT tough, IMO. Pinehurst No.2 is easily the hardest golf course of the ones I've played on that list. My surprise second-place is Oronoque. That place is a bowling alley draped in green. For me:
1. Pinehurst No. 2
2. Oronoque
3. Yale
4. Moorland
5. Tot Hill Farm
6. Tobacco Road
For the record, I'd put Pawleys Plantation between Oronoque and Pinehurst No. 2 on my personal list.
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I think a large part of their determination of the 'hardest' golf course was the slope and rating of the back tees at the specified course. The ocean course has a ridiculous 78 rating with a 155 slope, and they have tees that can take the course to almost 7800 yards, which would be downright unplayable for all but the best tour pros. Add in the constant wind factor there, and the course is a constant brute, but I feel that the course is very fair, and have played it many times.
Pat Mucci,
I think that length is a large part of difficulty. If one can not reach the green in regulation, then the odds of making a par are severely decreased. So, one can make a course difficult simply by making the greens unreachable even for the longest hitters. Adding in forced carries, water hazards, etc. simply adds to this level of difficulty. If you make the course too difficult, people will simply not return to play it. Some people like to play challenging courses just to say they have played them, get their butt kicked and never return again.
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I think that #7 and #10 have no business being on this list.
#49 doesn't belong either. What makes Tobacco Road so hard? Other than the time I played with Ed Getka where the temps were hovering in the mid-40's and I hadn't played golf in about 3 months, I have never shot over 80, and I have never played worth crap. The last pro-am they had, the winner shot 65, and none of the really good Section professionals were at the event. The way that course is set up on a day to day basis is not hard. Now, they firm up those greens and run them at about 11-12 speeds, well, thats a different story. But the way it is set up, that course is not hard. A good player should be at least 4 under on the par 5's and 17 is an almost given birdie. So, thats about 5 under and the rest of the holes aren't that hard.
Tot Hill Farm is a little different, they can put out some really jacked up pins, but for the most part, the hardest holes out there are 9 and 10, and 10 is only hard if played from the tees right behind #9 green where you have to hit across the road. Other than that, whats so hard? I think I shot 75 or 76 and didn't play that great.
Moose Run, same deal. Yeah, its 7600 or so yards long (might be 7800, I don't remember) but it really doesn't feel that long. And the greens are all very soft because of the short growing season. Now if you intend to putt everything out exactly according to the rules, I could see someone hitting every green in regulation and shooting over 100 because the greens are in poor shape, at least they were when I was there, and that was in late June. But as far as the actual layout goes and the green complexes, its not a difficult course. And it doesn't have the potential for big numbers for the most part; Tobacco Road and Tot Hill Farm do have those potentials, TR moreso.
Oh, and to answer one of the original questions, yes, all three of the courses that I listed above are playable on a daily basis.
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From Golf Digest:
10. TOBACCO ROAD GOLF CLUB
SANFORD / N.C. / 6,554 YARDS / PAR 71
This is Mike Strantz's version of Pine Valley, as seen through a funhouse mirror. Bunkers become craters, greens become sinkholes. The sand hills are taller and more eroded, the pits are steeper and deeper. Some greens are three times as wide as they are deep, and others are twice as long as they are wide. What's not distorted is that there are five blind shots at Tobacco Road. That makes it cotton-pickin' hard.
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As I suspected this is a Golf Digest piece that I saw a few years ago.
http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-courses/golf-courses/2007-03/gd50toughestcourses (http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-courses/golf-courses/2007-03/gd50toughestcourses)
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From Golf Digest:
10. TOBACCO ROAD GOLF CLUB
SANFORD / N.C. / 6,554 YARDS / PAR 71
This is Mike Strantz's version of Pine Valley, as seen through a funhouse mirror. Bunkers become craters, greens become sinkholes. The sand hills are taller and more eroded, the pits are steeper and deeper. Some greens are three times as wide as they are deep, and others are twice as long as they are wide. What's not distorted is that there are five blind shots at Tobacco Road. That makes it cotton-pickin' hard.
There are more than 5 blind shots at Tobacco Road. Depending on how you play a hole, there can be 10 or more blind shots out there. But they are not hard. You can see the proper place to aim every time. Why do people think "blind" shots are so hard? Find a patch of green grass and aim there, I promise you'll be safe every time; how difficult is that? Why do you need to see perfectly the 80 yard wide (actually wider than that in some places, the landing area for the second shot on #1 is 95 steps wide; I stepped it off while I was waiting to play through a group) field in front of you to know its there? Pathetic. Oh, and where are the "sinkhole" greens? I haven't seen any of those. Now, there are some bunkers like craters, but sinkhole greens? Give me a break. Anyone who has every played Tobacco Road knows that little Gold Digest write-up there is a bad joke.
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I reckon this list must be from an average golfer's PoV, but then forward tees should be the measure used. I can see where an 18 capper would find The Road difficult. Part of this difficulty is false espectations of relative ease due to the short yardage - I love this aspect of design. There are an awful lot of opportunities to finish with ball in pocket. For me, Oakland Hills or The Bear may be the toughest American courses I have played. They are hard no matter which tees I play and neither are courses I care for. Kiawah I didn't find overly difficult, but like a links it relies on wind to create much of the problem. That said, I can see where an 18 capper would find it difficult. Nearly every hole has an opportunity not to finish. I watched an 18 capper struggle mightily around this place in good weather so...The course on the list which impresses me most is Pinehurst. There are virtually nno opportunities to finish in pocket yet I think good, bad and indifferent golfers find the course tough. This is its most endearing quality. To be a championship course which is PLAYABLE (playable can still be diffiicult) for all is a remarkable feat to pull off.
Ciao
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Zach,
If the golfer can't reach the greens in regulation, shouldn't he be playing from more forward tees ?
Is that the key to an enjoyable challenge, being able to reach most of the greens in regulation ?
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I'm a (very) average golfer. I've played two of these (Wolf Run and Yale). Wolf Run was harder, tee to green and Yale on the greens but both were a blast to play, even if I didn't score well.
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I've played most on the list. They missed the hardest of them all maybe because it is so new. TPC Potomac is the most difficult course of 1050 courses I've ever played.....in no wind and not from the back tees. Fay just played there and said they could host the Open today without changing a thing. From the back tees and windy - God forbid. The senior tour championship will be played at Potomac 4-10Oct. I hope these guys are not embarrassed.
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Let's take the average golfer from the middle tees and the better golfer from the tips...I have played Kaluhyat at Turning Stone from the tips and it is much more difficult than Atunyote (the PGA Tour and Notah Begay Charity Event course) and Shenandoah. I have played Saratoga National (Roger Rulewich) from the tips and it, too, is a bitch from the way-back. I want to play Shattuck, since I hear that it is truly unfair...
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Ron,
At the "name" courses, the better golfer can't handle the tips.
The elite and PGA Tour Pros can.
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Agreed, Patrick...as my friend and poster Kevin Lynch likes to say, the visual hazard is the most frightening for the average golfer, which is why a Tot Hill or a Tobacco Road might get some play on these lists. Even our average golfers on this forum, I imagine, are savvy enough to sniff out the proper route (or proper tee decks) to make their way around any golf course...except, of course, on the day you just want to hit driver, no matter what!!
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Great to see the leader in Sports broadcasting valuing the important aspects of gca. :(
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I think that #7 and #10 have no business being on this list.
#49 doesn't belong either. What makes Tobacco Road so hard? Other than the time I played with Ed Getka where the temps were hovering in the mid-40's and I hadn't played golf in about 3 months, I have never shot over 80, and I have never played worth crap. The last pro-am they had, the winner shot 65, and none of the really good Section professionals were at the event. The way that course is set up on a day to day basis is not hard. Now, they firm up those greens and run them at about 11-12 speeds, well, thats a different story. But the way it is set up, that course is not hard. A good player should be at least 4 under on the par 5's and 17 is an almost given birdie. So, thats about 5 under and the rest of the holes aren't that hard.
Tot Hill Farm is a little different, they can put out some really jacked up pins, but for the most part, the hardest holes out there are 9 and 10, and 10 is only hard if played from the tees right behind #9 green where you have to hit across the road. Other than that, whats so hard? I think I shot 75 or 76 and didn't play that great.
Moose Run, same deal. Yeah, its 7600 or so yards long (might be 7800, I don't remember) but it really doesn't feel that long. And the greens are all very soft because of the short growing season. Now if you intend to putt everything out exactly according to the rules, I could see someone hitting every green in regulation and shooting over 100 because the greens are in poor shape, at least they were when I was there, and that was in late June. But as far as the actual layout goes and the green complexes, its not a difficult course. And it doesn't have the potential for big numbers for the most part; Tobacco Road and Tot Hill Farm do have those potentials, TR moreso.
Oh, and to answer one of the original questions, yes, all three of the courses that I listed above are playable on a daily basis.
Have to agree with John. I'm average at best, have played all the Strantz publics ex True Blue, and I think TR might be the easiest.
RNK at #16, even played at similar length as the back tees at TR and THF (6500) is much harder. The angles are tougher, more forced carries, at least as many blind shots, and a few pretty tough holes. The 7th is a tough three given the narrow green and trouble all around, and 16 is one of the toughest fours I've played.
From the backs, 7300, RNK would be a pretty tough...
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Ron,
I think you and/or your friend Kevin is right about the visual hazard.
But, with the advent of modern day technology, that's an illusion that's harder and harder to pull off.
The first time I played Bayonne, I stepped up onto the tee on # 4 and was intimidated.
It looked like a bowling alley with deep fescue for gutter lanes and beyond.
The wind was blowing, the left flank horizon obscured by dunes of tall grass, ditto the right side.
Now, I'm a fairly straight and consistent driver, but, when I stood on that tee and searched for my aiming point in the fairway and beyond, I was intimidated.
On subsequent play, while the visual is still there, I now know that there's tons of room right, behind an obscuring dune.
But, today, the tech oriented golfer can just pull out his "device" and see a bird's eye view of the entire hole, allowing him to override the visual deception that the architect was so successful at.
Golf and golf course architecture lose out when artificial devices are permited.
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Fine list I guess...but in the end of the day they are all pretty hard if you're playing the tips and aren't a great golfer. I generally play "hard" courses pretty well, but I don't understand the 15 handicapper when he or she insists on playing very hard courses consistently as I don't find much fun in that.
Pat Mucci - I agree that if a golfer can't hit the majority of the par-4's on a course he's playing the wrong tees.
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The Shattuck could probably be higher on this list. Its target golf on every shot for 18 holes with little room for bailout.
The one good thing about the place.....after losing a dozen balls on the front nine, the incredible scenery will still be there to enjoy and lift your spirits.
43. THE SHATTUCK GOLF CLUB
JAFFREY / N.H. / 6,764 YARDS / PAR 71
It once boasted the highest Slope in New England. It still features the most bridges over wetlands: 33 in 18 holes. Get your ball retriever regripped before you play.
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Overall a very eclectic list. It's weird to see some of these courses mentioned in the same list.
There are a couple of courses on the list that were built on land hardly suited for golf courses. For example, Ko'olau was basically carved out of rainforest. As was noted, the setting is unbelievable. It feels like you are on the set of 'Lost' (and you probably are given where it was filmed). And "lost" is the appropriate theme there. If you hit it solid and straight the course is not that hard. But everything is a carry and anything off the fairway is lost.
The Shattuck is another course that fits the bill of being built likely where golf wasn't meant to be played...on a mountainside swamp. At one point the course was under new management (I think this has happened several times) and when we walked to the back tees we were strongly urged to move up a set. I think they felt they lost business because many people didn't enjoy the difficulty. To me the only draw of playing there is because it is hard with tight landing areas and forced carries. There's something about trying to rise to the challenge of holes like #5, the 600 yard (and it plays all of that as the turf is often soft) with the postage stamp size green guarded in front by a creek and in back by sheer rock even if that isn't really how golf was meant to be played.
I was really surpised to see Pinehurst #2 on the list. When your caddy makes you empty your bag of all but a sleeve of golf balls before he'll carry your bag (and despite my protests of how wild I hit it), that doesn't scream ridiculously difficult. The green complexes are tough, certainly, but that course didn't make me feel beat up the way many others have. Yale was another surprise to me. While not easy, I've usually been able to play okay there (for my skill level anyway).
It's just interesting to me how much diversity there is in what people consider "difficult".
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Fine list I guess...but in the end of the day they are all pretty hard if you're playing the tips and aren't a great golfer. I generally play "hard" courses pretty well, but I don't understand the 15 handicapper when he or she insists on playing very hard courses consistently as I don't find much fun in that.
Pat Mucci - I agree that if a golfer can't hit the majority of the par-4's on a course he's playing the wrong tees.
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I think Pinehurst #2 is a bit surprising here. I could play that course every day. Although I have seen at least 2 very good players walk off a couple of those greens near tears.... ;D
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"Is that the key to an enjoyable challenge, being able to reach most of the greens in regulation ?"
Disagree with that one. I find it more enjoyable on the 460+ par fours to play short to an easy chip and a 4-8 foot par putt as I do trying to hit the green. The fun and challenge is to leave the approach and the chip in positions where the next shot is easier. The singular focus on hitting the green all the time removes much of the creativity of managing the course's defenses, and making par with a wedge and putter.
Plus holing out the chip for birdie is way more fun than a birdie putt, and completely demoralizing to the long hitter opponents who hit seven iron into the green, only to two putt for par.
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I once de-greened a putt into the bunker on 5, and the caddy said he knew I was going to do that. I asked when and he replied "when you took your putter back more than 1/2". Courses that are firm and with fast greens and require local knowledge are as tough (when a resort) as brutes, aren't they?
P2 is a course that can cut you and you don't even know you are bleeding.
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Oak Hill (East), anyone?
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Oak Hill (East), anyone?
There are so many courses that could nearly make this kind of list that you could include to expand it to 500 if you wanted.
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I think it is worth noting that, while the PGA Tour still stops at Oakmont, they will not at PGA West Stadium. They tried it once many years ago and the pros refused to go back, period. Now it is only used to torture those poor fools struggling through Q-School.
It is funny to me that a certain commercial advertising getting you a tee time uses PGA West Stadium as their example. I wonder if it is because no one else will play it more than once?
We found Tot Hill tougher than Tobacco Road, mainly because our balls spent a fair amount of time looking like pinballs on those rocks. Both are a blast to play, who cares about scores.
My favorite course still to play [Eagle Ridge, KY] has a slope of 144, with 153 front nine. I do not play it for a good score, in fact hardly keep score. It is plain fun. I imagine I would enjoy any of these courses that have reasonable short tees without long carrys and are full of 'try this' shorts. I like target golf. I don't always do well, but I mostly laugh and try it again. Tough courses? Bring it on!
Doug
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Saw the list and have to take issue with a few -- and add others that were omitted.
There is NO way Crystal Springs in Hamburg, NJ makes the list. Play the original Trump 18 from the tips and it will run circles around Crystal Springs.
Tot Hill Farm and Tobacco Rd ?
Ron M, good call on Saratoga National -- played from the tips it can make a strong case to be right behind the likes of Bethpage Black in NY State.
The Medalist can easily be a top ten -- just a bear to play from the tips. Plenty of lost balls and the like waiting with the slightest hiccup.In regards to Desert Mtn -- Renegade is often mentioned but the original Geronimo and even the present Chirichua would be better calls.
Wolf Creek from Mesquite NV at #31 -- surely they jest -- even it's detractors admit it's a ballbuster of even higher status than what's listed !
I'd also place Red Ledges from UT -- it's a superb course but from the tips it's 77+ and 145+.
Rochelle Ranch is a tough layout but there's plenty of room to spray the ball around .
No way Pinehurst #2 should be included for such a specific listing.
Forget Yale -- if you need a CT course include The Stanwich -- especially when the greens are at 12+.
Stone Harbor is a good call if the original "jaws" hole were still present.
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I have played a number of these, and for my money, yard for yard I will take Prairie Dunes on a daily basis.
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BTW, a pro a a certain Dye course was talking to me about Dye's Kampen. He claimed Dye himself said it was absurdly penal with the rough in that condition, and he had never meant it to be play in that condition at all.
Doug
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I reckon this list must be from an average golfer's PoV, but then forward tees should be the measure used. I can see where an 18 capper would find The Road difficult. Part of this difficulty is false espectations of relative ease due to the short yardage - I love this aspect of design. There are an awful lot of opportunities to finish with ball in pocket. For me, Oakland Hills or The Bear may be the toughest American courses I have played. They are hard no matter which tees I play and neither are courses I care for. Kiawah I didn't find overly difficult, but like a links it relies on wind to create much of the problem. That said, I can see where an 18 capper would find it difficult. Nearly every hole has an opportunity not to finish. I watched an 18 capper struggle mightily around this place in good weather so...The course on the list which impresses me most is Pinehurst. There are virtually nno opportunities to finish in pocket yet I think good, bad and indifferent golfers find the course tough. This is its most endearing quality. To be a championship course which is PLAYABLE (playable can still be diffiicult) for all is a remarkable feat to pull off.
Ciao
I've played the course several hundred times from a variety of tees. Almost every time I played it I was a scratch or lower handicap. I have never broken par on the course. Chipping is not my strength.
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I think this is a reprint of an old list from a few years ago that I saw in some magazine. Wolf Run and Purgatory were in the same spot on the list.
As for Purgatory, it isn't even the most difficult public course in the state in my mind. I think the name, the stupid back tees and all the sand perpetuate that image. I have played several courses that are "harder" like Oakland Hills, Prairie Dunes and Crystal Downs.
Kampen at Purdue might be the hardest course but that is solely due to the awful condition they keep it at all the time.
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Chris:
CD with the wind whipping, the rough dense and long and the greens at 10+ will give anyone all they can handle.
By the way -- if one needs an IN course for such a list -- how bout Hulman Links from the dead back ?
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I think that #7 and #10 have no business being on this list. #46 is harder than the both of those combined.
I think I might be able to name at least 10 courses just in North Carolina that are tougher than TR and THF - definitely if you let me count the greater Myrtle area as well.
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With all the problems that many of us have with this list, at least no one is complaining about the #1 ranking. It's pretty tough to prove that one wrong.
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Put me in the camp for Bethpage everyday crowd. While it is quite difficult, most of the trees are out of play and there is no wind to speak of on most days. Only real difficulty is the length and that can be offset by playing the correct tees. I would be absolutely happy and content to play Bethpage Black everyday.
I would rather play BB on calm day from the back tees than Pacific Dunes from green tees when it is blowing 20 to 30mph.
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From the backs, 7300, RNK would be a pretty tough...
There's a reason that, when they first opened, you had to provide your driver's license and handicap card before they'd even let you go back there. Now they don't even put tee markers on those boxes. That being said, I did have a good friend fire an even-par 72 from back there the first time he played it. He also hits an 8-iron 170 yards, so....
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Where is Olympic in SF? No Olympic = no credibility
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Wonder what makes Furnace Creek hard? The possibility of heat stroke? Dehydration?
That's the "dead" ;) giveaway. This is not a golf channel list, but a reprint of I think it was Golf Digest article. Furnace Creek is a relatively easy course, except of course in summer, where it presents the possibility of "death" in the valley. ;)
The list has had a previous thread when it first came out in GD.
EDIT: I see Alex beat me to spotting this impostor.
EDIT AGAIN: I looked it up on line. This is indeed recycled GD garbage from quite awhile ago.
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I think that #7 and #10 have no business being on this list.
#49 doesn't belong either. What makes Tobacco Road so hard? Other than the time I played with Ed Getka where the temps were hovering in the mid-40's and I hadn't played golf in about 3 months, I have never shot over 80, and I have never played worth crap. The last pro-am they had, the winner shot 65, and none of the really good Section professionals were at the event. The way that course is set up on a day to day basis is not hard. Now, they firm up those greens and run them at about 11-12 speeds, well, thats a different story. But the way it is set up, that course is not hard. A good player should be at least 4 under on the par 5's and 17 is an almost given birdie. So, thats about 5 under and the rest of the holes aren't that hard.
Tot Hill Farm is a little different, they can put out some really jacked up pins, but for the most part, the hardest holes out there are 9 and 10, and 10 is only hard if played from the tees right behind #9 green where you have to hit across the road. Other than that, whats so hard? I think I shot 75 or 76 and didn't play that great.
Moose Run, same deal. Yeah, its 7600 or so yards long (might be 7800, I don't remember) but it really doesn't feel that long. And the greens are all very soft because of the short growing season. Now if you intend to putt everything out exactly according to the rules, I could see someone hitting every green in regulation and shooting over 100 because the greens are in poor shape, at least they were when I was there, and that was in late June. But as far as the actual layout goes and the green complexes, its not a difficult course. And it doesn't have the potential for big numbers for the most part; Tobacco Road and Tot Hill Farm do have those potentials, TR moreso.
Oh, and to answer one of the original questions, yes, all three of the courses that I listed above are playable on a daily basis.
Have to agree with John. I'm average at best, have played all the Strantz publics ex True Blue, and I think TR might be the easiest.
RNK at #16, even played at similar length as the back tees at TR and THF (6500) is much harder. The angles are tougher, more forced carries, at least as many blind shots, and a few pretty tough holes. The 7th is a tough three given the narrow green and trouble all around, and 16 is one of the toughest fours I've played.
From the backs, 7300, RNK would be a pretty tough...
I would love to "clone" Tobacco Road somewhere, but add about 1,000 yards to it. They have room to add a good amount of length out there. (depending on property owned) They could make a new back tee on #1 somewhere near the front porch of the clubhouse, same with #10. 2 could be backed up 10-15 yards. They could put a new tee on #4 over behind the 3rd green, if they own that land. 7 could be backed up 10 yards or so. 8 could go back 10-15 yards. 9 could go back a stupid long ways, probably 100 yards or more until you got to the 4th green (not really an option, the hole is mighty hard as is). 12 could be moved back who knows how far and on a harder angle. 13 could be lengthed probably 200 yards by putting a new back tee over behind the 12th green. Of course, as we've all said who knows how many times, they could build a 250+ yard par 3 in that huge space between 12 green and current 13 tee, do away with #17. 14 could be moved back probably 25 yard from the real back tees, about 75 yards from the current longest tees. 16 could be moved back into the trees somewhere and the slope beyond the fairway mowed down to flat sand so that its not literally unfair. And thats about it, but thats about 650 yards or more right there.
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This is the endless debate about Tobacco Rd. If you are a pretty good golfer, as most here tend to be, TR is not a difficult course. But it can be hell on wheels for a high handicapper; thus the huge differential between the course rating and the slope.
But for better golfers, for my money the toughest Strantz course isn't listed. True Blue is 7100+ from the tips, has a course rating of 74.3 and slopes at 138. From those tees, TB is just nasty. Tot Hill, on the other hand, doesn't even belong in this discussion IMO.
That said, this is a goofy list; Golfweek ought to pay ESPN to keep doing stuff like this. It makes Golfweek look really, really good.
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This is the endless debate about Tobacco Rd. If you are a pretty good golfer, as most here tend to be, TR is not a difficult course. But it can be hell on wheels for a high handicapper; thus the huge differential between the course rating and the slope.
But for better golfers, for my money the toughest Strantz course isn't listed. True Blue is 7100+ from the tips, has a course rating of 74.3 and slopes at 138. From those tees, TB is just nasty. Tot Hill, on the other hand, doesn't even belong in this discussion IMO.
That said, this is a goofy list; Golfweek ought to pay ESPN to keep doing stuff like this. It makes Golfweek look really, really good.
This was originally a Golf Digest list. Not sure why ESPN decided like 3 years later to pick it up. This list has been out a long time now.
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It must be old. No Pound Ridge?
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Adam:
Good call on that front -- as you correcrlt surmised likely because the listing has been out for some time PR was not likely opened for consideration.
I would certainly add it in the mix.
The thing about PR is that unlike so many of the other courses which can be hard on the high handicap types and less so on the better players -- PR is more about the reverse. If the high handicap types play it from the front markers it is manageable.
Anyone taking it on from the tips who can't hit a driver (or comparable distance club) a minimum of 290-300 yards relatively straight all the time -- will make a mega donation with the slightest pull / push on a number of holes there.
Gents:
One other course not included that can make a better case than no less than a dozen that are already listed ...
Antler Creek in Falcon, CO -- 8,000 yards and sports a near 80 CR from the dead back. Throw in the breezes that can whip through the property and you have your hands full -- mega.
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This is the endless debate about Tobacco Rd. If you are a pretty good golfer, as most here tend to be, TR is not a difficult course. But it can be hell on wheels for a high handicapper; thus the huge differential between the course rating and the slope.
But for better golfers, for my money the toughest Strantz course isn't listed. True Blue is 7100+ from the tips, has a course rating of 74.3 and slopes at 138. From those tees, TB is just nasty. Tot Hill, on the other hand, doesn't even belong in this discussion IMO.
That said, this is a goofy list; Golfweek ought to pay ESPN to keep doing stuff like this. It makes Golfweek look really, really good.
A.G.--
Interesting that you say that about TB. Having played TB from the tips a few times, I would actually say Caledonia is tougher in relation to par. I'm a scratch player, so I can only comment on these courses' relative difficulties for lower handicappers. But True Blue's fairways and greens are just so huge that even on days when I've been hitting the ball a little crooked, I still hit a lot of fairways and greens. And I even feel like mid- and higher-handicap players, from the proper tees, can keep the ball in play on most holes (the tee shot on 6 can be tough, I'll concede, and 3 is an intimidating hole from all tees). JMO.
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I don't see any challenge to The Ocean Course at #1 toughest. It's the most difficult and confounding course I have ever played, and yet I enjoyed it immensely. It made every synapse in my being go off.
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"The first time I played Bayonne, I stepped up onto the tee on # 4 and was intimidated.
It looked like a bowling alley with deep fescue for gutter lanes and beyond.
The wind was blowing, the left flank horizon obscured by dunes of tall grass, ditto the right side.
Now, I'm a fairly straight and consistent driver, but, when I stood on that tee and searched for my aiming point in the fairway and beyond, I was intimidated.
On subsequent play, while the visual is still there, I now know that there's tons of room right, behind an obscuring dune."
Pat, good comment re #4 at Bayonne - I am a member and it took me a season and a half to figure out that, relative to par, 4 is one of the easiest holes at Bayonne with once one gains confidence on the tee shot - re. the point of 'hardest for whom', Bayonne is a good example of a course that plays hard for an erratic player (yours truly) but is actually quite playable for the straight hitter.
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This is the endless debate about Tobacco Rd. If you are a pretty good golfer, as most here tend to be, TR is not a difficult course. But it can be hell on wheels for a high handicapper; thus the huge differential between the course rating and the slope.
But for better golfers, for my money the toughest Strantz course isn't listed. True Blue is 7100+ from the tips, has a course rating of 74.3 and slopes at 138. From those tees, TB is just nasty. Tot Hill, on the other hand, doesn't even belong in this discussion IMO.
That said, this is a goofy list; Golfweek ought to pay ESPN to keep doing stuff like this. It makes Golfweek look really, really good.
A.G.--
Interesting that you say that about TB. Having played TB from the tips a few times, I would actually say Caledonia is tougher in relation to par. I'm a scratch player, so I can only comment on these courses' relative difficulties for lower handicappers. But True Blue's fairways and greens are just so huge that even on days when I've been hitting the ball a little crooked, I still hit a lot of fairways and greens. And I even feel like mid- and higher-handicap players, from the proper tees, can keep the ball in play on most holes (the tee shot on 6 can be tough, I'll concede, and 3 is an intimidating hole from all tees). JMO.
Tim,
Caledonia is an interesting case. I always come off that course thinking I should have scored better, but I never really do; I think that is one mark of a great design. The golfer isn't overwhelmed by the difficulty at any point, but rather a stroke slips away here and there, and at the end you just feel like you should have scored better.
Consider, though, that True Blue is a full 500 yds. longer from the tips than Caledonia (or Tobacco Rd., for that matter). For a scratch golfer, length is often not really the biggest obstacle to scoring. But I am ALWAYS careful to tell people that are about to play TB for the first time to go to the 6500 yd. tees (which is actually the third set there) because from 6800 or 7100 it is just too difficult for the vast majority of golfers if you miss greens. Strantz was charged with designing the Pine Valley of the South at TB, and the somewhat softer version that exists now is still very, very difficult for mid to high handicappers. Much moreso than either Tobacco Rd. or Tot Hill Farm, IMO. Again, I feel that Caledonia is in a different category from those three.
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I am glad not to have any courses on their list. But, clearly, they can't get on Sebonack.
I think Donald Trump would be annoyed that neither of the courses at Trump National are on the list. From the back tees,both should be.
Metedeconk should be as well.
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Bill,
Agree completely on Metedeconk. That place is a ballbuster.
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How many are top 100?
Anthony
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Wolf Run is well deserved.
Anthony
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Does ESPN own Golf Digest, or vice versa, these days?
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Matt,
I think there are a few holes on Hulman that are a bear on the front nine, but I don't think it would be that bad from the backs. I can think of several that would tougher public courses from the tips. The Dye Course at French Lick might be unplayable. Kampen in the current condition is much worse. Glendarin Hills in Angola is a newer layout that would be very difficult. Also some places that I don't think the most of could be very difficult from the tips, and much more so than Hulman. White Hawk in Crown Point has a fourth set of nine holes (Silver) that may be the hardest set of nine holes in the state, and that includes Wolf Run.
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Chris:
With all the info you presented -- it amazes me to no end how The Hoosier State is just not spoken about in terms of quality golf offerings. More than just long tough courses the state has a roster of public courses that is better than Pennsy and The Empire State. Frankly, I see your public roster being better than Jersey's too for that matter.
For some reason the state is not thought of as being a solid place to play golf -- likely having no tour event hurts to some extent and that no men's major (save for the '91 PGA) has been played there in recent times.
Chris, how playable is The Dye Course at French Lick if they play reasonable tees -- say arounsd 7,500 yards versus all the way back. Pete included "TIP" tees at The Ocean Course but never meant for them to be played unless technology required it. Thoughts?
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Crystal Downs hard?? Bring on the winds that took down the Edmond Fitzgerald and CD still doesn't come within a nautical mile of "all-world hard". CD is a strategic course designed to please the tactician. Many courses in the US, hell in Michigan, run circles around CD in the difficulty category. JC
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I was lucky enough to play TR and Tot Hill Farm when Kyle lived in NC a few years ago. I consider myself, at best, an average player and I thought both courses were fun and would love to be able to play them regularly. I didn't feel that either of them was that "hard." There are many courses around that IMOH are "harder" than either of these.
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I was lucky enough to play TR and Tot Hill Farm when Kyle lived in NC a few years ago. I consider myself, at best, an average player and I thought both courses were fun and would love to be able to play them regularly. I didn't feel that either of them was that "hard." There are many courses around that IMOH are "harder" than either of these.
Glad to see someone else agreeing with the others of us here. Neither of those courses are that hard if you can trust your swing in the least and put the crazy stuff going on around you out of your mind. Most of the hazards at those places aren't really in play, but they make you think they are because you can't get them out of your mind. Both of those courses just play mind games on people, nothing else. I have only played Tot Hill once, so I would have to think it over, but at TR, it would really surprise me if the course record was higher than 62 or 63.
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Jonathan:
Courses run "circles" around CD.
Really ?
Let me see people play it with greens like glass and the rough just waiting to grab the slightest miscue.
If you are mentioning specific courses please let me know. You get cool air and heavy wind blowing through CD with the above mentioned elements and heaven help anyone who sprays just a tad or has the slightest twitch in their strokes.
I'm not saying it's an automatic when excessive length courses are thrown into the pic -- but place courses at 6,500 yards and CD is certainly a solid candidate in that regard.
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The Ocean Course is only really hard if you play the wrong set of tees. If player's don't bite off more than they can chew, it generally is a very enjoyable round (pending the wind is blowing less than 20mph -- once that happens, all bets are off). I've played it over 300 times so I know my way around the course. The reason that it's hard is that Pete Dye made it "look" hard. Standing on the tees, players see nothing but trouble and very little fairway so the tend to swing out of their shoes. However, once they reach the fairways, they find they're giantic. It's Pete playing with their heads. Additionally, there are no forced carries into the greens except for No. 17. The greens aren't tricked up. In fact, they're fairly flat. And, they are only elevated if it is expected to be using a short iron to hit into them. Otherwise, they are designed to allow balls to bounce onto them. If players play a "connect-the-dots" type of games, hitting fairways and greens, rather than playing power golf, players can score quite well there...
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Diamante in Hot Springs ahead of Oak Hill??????
I really dont get it...they cannot possibly have played Oak Hill and it not be in the top 50...it is the hardest I have ever played...but perhaps they dont use the back tees??
still does not make any sense.
The fiarways at Diamnate are about 80 yards wide..everywhere....