Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: George_Bahto on June 10, 2010, 05:05:02 PM
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I originally thought Seth Raynor only built the 5th green at Nassau CC (North Shore, Long Island), one of the more interesting greens (internal contours) I think he ever built.
An article in The Brooklyn Eagle, New York, dated, Sunday, February 1, 1914 states (some) of the following information (thank you Joe Bausch for coming up with the links to the many newspapers).
1914, mind you, this after all the “talk” of Raynor and 1915 :( :( ::)
NASSAU GOLF COURSE TO BE AMONG LONGEST IN COUNTRY
Extensions and Additions Will Make It Rank Favorably With the Real Championship Links Anywhere
Seth J. Raynor to Engineer the Changes Will Be Ready Next Fall.
The Nassau Country Club, which from its inception, has always been prosperous, seems to be entering upon a period of even greater prosperity, If one may judge from the present plans for the lengthening of the course, already outlined in The Eagle.
It later states:
That the Nassau Club is determined to given the latest and best thought to the carrying out of the ideas respecting the course extension is sown by the fact that Seth J. Raynor has been engaged as the engineer to supervise the work. It was Mr. Raynor who-has carried out so successfully the ideas of Charles B. Macdonald at the National Links, Sleepy Hollow and Piping Rock.
..... interesting to note that NGLA. Piping Rock and Sleepy Hollow Country Club are the only courses mentioned before Nassau in this article; does that mean that Nassau was actually next ... and it mentions only that Raynor was doing it, not CBM
there is a lot of detail in the article about the holes but this is the gist of the story.
also in this advertisement he mentions Nassau .... he never mentioned minor modification to a course, only large scale work.
(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g85/ggb313/raynoradwnassaucc.jpg)
Also in one of his obits it mentions the following:
“He was also instrumental in the construction of the Sleepy Hollow and Piping Rock courses and the Nassau and Creek links. The Links Club course was also his work, as were the layouts at the Chicago Golf Club and the St. Louis Country Club.”
My question:
Who, among the learned we have out there, can add more information on Raynor and the Nassau CC
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George,
There was a wonderful aerial photo of Nassau hanging in the Men's locker room.
In briefly studying that aerial I wasn't struck by any systemic similarity to Raynor's work.
It would be great if someone could post that aerial.
Today's Nassau looks nothing like that aerial, but, I know others have altered the course since that photo was taken.
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Time to hit the archives...
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There was another thread with an article that I thought was from the "Daily Eagle" but may have been the Brooklyn Eagle, that spoke of all the redesign work that Strong had done in 1924. In addition, in the last ten years, Nassau has completely changed the 3rd and fourth holes. It would certainly be interesting to see who should get the design credit for the course as it is today. I know that Emmet currently gets the credit. So I guess the question remains "When will Mark Hissey have an answer for us?"
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Pat - I think I'll go out there and photo that photo - this has me curious, especially since Raynor mentioned about three holes at Nassau when referring to holes he built at other courses.
I have a signed scorecard from the Ralph Kennedy collection, dated Aug 28, 1918, just a couple years after the (possible) Raynor-built version. (Roadside (Road hole) #12 - - - Redan at 192 hole 14)
More quotes indicate, if this is a Raynor expansion/redesign or whatever, it is very early - perhaps the earliest major work (which is why I'm so interested. It speaks about Piping Rock as finished the year before.
talking about the greens being ready for the Women's Championship:
"A question that naturally suggests itself is whether the improved course will be ready for use by the time of the women’s national championship, which has been resigned to Nassau and which will come off well along in the fall, in accordance with the women’s custom.
The results obtained at Piping Rock, where the greens opened on May 30, 1912, were in superb condition by October may offer a solution of this question, but the Nassau folk do not purpose leaving anything to chance in so important a matter as a national tournament, as may be judged from these remarks made today to an Eagle reporter by a prominent committeeman of Nassau, who besides being one of the best players on Long Island will have much to do with the laying out of the altered holes."
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George:
I believe Mark Hissey in Post #2 is absolutely right-----eg don't try to interpret this via newspaper and obit information----begin by going right to the source-----Nassau GC and its archives, that hopefully contains some contemporaneous material on Raynor's involvment if he had any and it was significant! Those contemporaneous newspaper accounts probably didn't just dream up the stuff they reported----they probably interviewed the subject clubs and for obvious reasons before they wrote articles about them.
Go to the club----go to the subject first just as most good contemporaneous newspaper reporters probably did first too!
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George,
There was a nice, volcano like short that might have been influenced or designed by Raynor.
Get the photo and let me know what you think.
I suspect that the club may have other photos in their possession.
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Patrick - I made contact with the right people today
and I've got quite a number more article authenticating SR built the course in 19114- 1915 but it was done over in 1920 by Emmet then Strong brought it close to today's course alignment in 1925
I also have the Raynor plan from the Brooklyn Eagle and the Strong course, same source
(Joe Bausch - now you've opening a whole new source - I'l never get done !!)
probably will be more to come
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Mr Bahto. Nassau claims that they have been around since 1896, do you have information on who designed the course before Raynor in 1915-1915?
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Keith, at this point I may have information about their course than they do - lots of old articles with yardages and hole description et al, aside from about 5 different scorecards, a few of them dated (lots of different yardages that I have been trying to make sense of) and about a dozen articles. I'll have their club history next week. Unfortunately their historian passed on recently.
I have a 1909 article that gives a hole by hole description and also a hole by hole when they first moved to their present site. This was the course built by their in-house committee
"The original course was abandoned and new property (the present property) of 105 acres purchased for the home of the new club, now the name changed from Queens County Golf Club to Nassau Country Club. “The putting greens will be 100 feet square”
I'm meeting with them next week.
Basic Chronology:
Bendelow built 6 holes in 1896 then expanded it to 9 holes a year later
Raynor design was 1914-1915
Emmet design seems to be 1920
the Strong design is dated 1925 and is basically what they have on the ground today
(Later work on the course was done by Frank Duane - later Cornish, 1970 and then 1984 - doesn’t come into my story)
I have a 1918 scorecard, the Raynor course
There is still some missing stuff on the Emmet design but perhaps the club can fill in.
Brooklyn Eagle had a plan of the 1915 Raynor course and they also published a 1925 plan, post Strong.
I'm not sure who really gets credit for the course and I certainly wouldn't go to war about it. I'd leave that for the club to figure out. If I can add anything, great.
My story (stories) has always been what Macdonald Raynor and Banks' original intent was, not what happened later to the courses (only seldom would that be important for the Raynor-story - perhaps Emmet's involvement in this design may be important to what I'll write about - we'll see)
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Macdonald and Raynor really had the wealthy North Shore of Long Island really in hand.
Piping Rock - Creek - Nassau - Brookville - North Shore CC - Oheka - Willie Vanderbilt’s Deepdale - Links Club
all mostly Macdonald’s good friends
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What was the Raynor design at Nassau in 1914-15, what hole (or holes) was he responsible for?
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Thanks Tom, Don't forget that Cynthia Dye did a remodel of holes 3 and 4 in the last 10 years or so. She changed back to back par fours to a par three and a par five.
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As far as Raynor holes. I am certainly not as qualified as most to just look at holes and decipher, however from my experience, the 5th hole seems to be a Raynor. It is a par three with a thumb print type green. It is nearly the same green complex as the second hole at Southampton, but plays much longer.
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it looks like he changed a lot of the holes but did keep (at least) the fairways on others - he was not one to entirely blow up a course if he could use some of the playing corridors,
I don't have the map of the Committee-built course to campare his course to.
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Here is the 2/1/1914 and a subsequent article reporting the progress. The changes seem to be focused around a 10 acre area.
George
Raynor obviously oversaw the construction, but did he also plan the changes?
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Thanks Tom, Don't forget that Cynthia Dye did a remodel of holes 3 and 4 in the last 10 years or so. She changed back to back par fours to a par three and a par five.
Keith
Who is Cynthia Dye?
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Cynthia Dye is Pete's niece:
http://dyedesigns.com/golf/dye-family-2/cynthia-dye-mcgarey/
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TMac
who else would you suppose would plan the changes? - I have about 6 more article about the Raynor involvement
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George
In 1914 there is a good chance CBM was involved, just as he was at North Shore and Greenwich. By the way this course dates back to 1899 and it was 18 holes.
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Mr. Bahto, is there anything new on the Nassau CC research that you wouldn't mind sharing?
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Keith - not really historically
they're looking thru the minutes and will be getting back to me
there seems to be some sort of overlap of Raynor and Emmet
perhaps Emmet oversaw the construction of what may have been some portions of the Raynor plans - it happened a number of times before and after
but this is an Emmet / Strong golf course - lots of the Strong features on the course as it is today (to me)
my main interest in it is the references Raynor made about some holes at Nassau used as inspirations to holes he built on other courses
I'm trying to get a handle on when the great (present) 5th green was built - or perhaps that it was the remnants of what was the 4th on the Raynor design
stay tuned
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there seems to be some sort of overlap of Raynor and Emmet
perhaps Emmet oversaw the construction of what may have been some portions of the Raynor plans - it happened a number of times before and after
George
What are some examples of Emmet overseeing construction of Raynor plans?
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The 5th really is a great green. The first time that I played there, I was told (by a member) that there was one hole on the course that was a Raynor hole. I am not very practiced at picking a designer's hole out of a lineup, however I do play at a Raynor course, and when I arrived at 5, it was clear to me that this was it.
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A bit off the subject:
Membership fee in 1917 was $200.00
Dues were $125.00
Guest fee was $2.00
Superintendent name was Harry L Hedges. ;D
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I think I posted this on another thread but it probably belongs here . . .
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/Nassau19140201Raynor.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/Nassau19140201Raynorb.jpg?t=1285189815)
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"George
What are some examples of Emmet overseeing construction of Raynor plans?"
Who really knows but if there ever was a good candidate it would probably be Marion Hollins' Women's National GC. The thing to keep in mind is all those guys were friends and probably OK with one another and could work on anything together via whatever way it took. But ask a guy like Tom MacWood to understand that or how and why and it gets complicated today to say the least. The man is the worst architectural historian imaginable and that explains why the threads on this website run into multiple pages.
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The main reason that these threads run on is found in the second half of your reply, which adds nothing of value to the question/s at hand and is only made to instigate trouble.
Grow up.
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Jim Kennedy:
As long as the likes of Moriarty and MacWood continue to make the ridiculous claims they do on here with various siginficant subjects it's going to continue, so live with it or just do something else. This is a discussion group and disagreements and even arguments over them happen.
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Who really knows but if there ever was a good candidate it would probably be Marion Hollins' Women's National GC. The thing to keep in mind is all those guys were friends and probably OK with one another and could work on anything together via whatever way it took. But ask a guy like Tom MacWood to understand that or how and why and it gets complicated today to say the least. The man is the worst architectural historian imaginable and that explains why the threads on this website run into multiple pages. -
TEPaul
That's not a disagreement or an argument, it's purely spite.
Grow up.
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Jim Kennedy:
It's also a fact.
But if it is spite then that's what happens with someone who accuses me and my friends of pissing on CBM's grave about 25 times on here. If you feel like you want to play the moderator on here then you should start by moderating him too.
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TEPaul,
Thanks for providing the proof in your last post that it is spiteful behavior on your part, a leftover from bygone arguments.
You made the beginnings of a contribution concerning Marion Hollins/Emmet/Raynor that got lost because you could not resist the temptaion to attack someone, in this instance it was TMac. The topic had been rolling along quite nicely and didn't need an injection of spiteful behavior, from you or anyone else.
It seems pretty simple to me, take the bullseye off your back and, eventually, the snipers won't have a target. In other words, moderate yourself and they'll be forced to follow suit.
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Another attribution for this course, around 1922:
(http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6220/6386203729_51507eb4f0_b.jpg)
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Does Nassau win the competition over Gulph Mills in the number of architects who have touched the respective courses? ;D ;D
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In the club book, Nassau Country Club – The place to be – 1896 to1996, In Chapter 10 Course redesign, 1911-1915.
With the new clubhouse finished in 1910, and its furnishing completed by October of 1911, the club could now turn to modernizing the course.
On October 26, the Directors stated: “That the links need to be intelligently bunkered to date, and the suggestions which we gathered from visiting experts are now placed in the hands of a special committee to lay out the work”
Could Raynor have been a visiting expert?
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If you go back on this topic you'll ssee Raynor's contributions.
I don't think anyone has ever found any information that Colt was in the U.S. after 1914, so this article isn't very factual if that is the case. Allison was reported to be in the U.S. at the time so it may have been him, and as Colt, Allison and Mackenzie worked together he may have written Colt for effect. It may even be the case that it was Raynor and that the writer had bad info.
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