Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Jim Colton on May 13, 2010, 02:51:27 PM
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The sequel to my not-so-ballyhooed original design Ballysnoop, behold Ballyneo Golf Club. Fire away. I won't go hole-by-hole, but I'll respond w/ pictures of specific holes as the discussion warrants.
Objectives/Vision:
• Fun, walking-only private course
• Firm-and-fast conditions, sand-based soils, fescues throughout
• Assumed treeless site with ever-present but no prevailing winds
• Although not shown in sketchup, fluid tee boxes with no formal tee markers. Groups free to mix it up.
• Attempted to limit green-to-tee distances and to keep earthmoving to a minimum.
Out Par Black Green Red
1 4 400 363 295
2 5 596 570 466
3 3 200 173 153
4 4 484 465 423
5 4 372 335 256
6 4 426 379 325
7 4 380 354 320
8 3 189 169 131
9 5 563 513 443
Tot 36 3610 3321 2812
In Par Black Green Red
10 4 437 365 323
11 4 361 341 294
12 4 397 368 316
13 3 181 163 143
14 4 442 372 340
15 3 210 189 145
16 5 584 532 443
17 4 437 408 334
18 4 455 415 326
Tot 35 3504 3153 2664
All 71 7114 6474 5476
First, the routing.
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_UDEB5EA-uv0/S-xHC2cQPrI/AAAAAAAAA2k/DgrKKBQKZZs/s1600/JC00.jpg)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_UDEB5EA-uv0/S-xHJJMrx5I/AAAAAAAAA2s/Tf1kD_RYzqs/s1600/JC00_5.jpg)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_UDEB5EA-uv0/S-xHCuqIBuI/AAAAAAAAA2c/SDVf7riiu3A/s1600/JC00_1.jpg)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_UDEB5EA-uv0/S-xHCTwonvI/AAAAAAAAA2U/UOJXyC_p6V0/s1600/JC00_2.jpg)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_UDEB5EA-uv0/S-xHCLEJGCI/AAAAAAAAA2M/fDzRFgmF0e4/s1600/JC00_3.jpg)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_UDEB5EA-uv0/S-xHBnTjzrI/AAAAAAAAA2E/VM63hr6ptDE/s1600/JC00_4.jpg)
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Jim, you are a consistent performer and if you do this well in the next contest you might have to consider quitting your day job!
My favorite hole of yours (and incidentially Andy Gray also found virtually the same one) is #7 A nice par 4 with the green on a promontory which allows the player to run the ball on. The further right you drive, the less the front bunkers impede your second shot. Good stuff.
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Jim, you are a consistent performer and if you do this well in the next contest you might have to consider quitting your day job!
My favorite hole of yours (and incidentially Andy Gray also found virtually the same one) is #7 A nice par 4 with the green on a promontory which allows the player to run the ball on. The further right you drive, the less the front bunkers impede your second shot. Good stuff.
Charlie, thanks. A consistently slightly above average performer, but consistent nonetheless. Always the bridesmaid...
I like the 7th hole a lot. I mention in the other thread that I tried to build a hole that tempted you to go for the green but didn't automatically reward length. The play is probably to lay up to the top of the hill. Otherwise, you might be left with a downhill lie to a shallow green. The far left tee is probably best since you can see the green. I actually like Andy's execution better with more fairway surrounding the hill and the bunkers banked into the side of the hill.
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_UDEB5EA-uv0/S-xM6NqvjLI/AAAAAAAAA38/kZLu1dwoJRw/s1600/JC07.jpg)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_UDEB5EA-uv0/S-xM56emhXI/AAAAAAAAA30/niX_sbkRz4Y/s1600/JC07b.jpg)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_UDEB5EA-uv0/S-xM5ZyWOPI/AAAAAAAAA3s/tDsMTKZkYcs/s1600/JC07_1.jpg)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_UDEB5EA-uv0/S-xMw0DjcOI/AAAAAAAAA3k/VEAqTHozClw/s1600/JC07_2.jpg)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_UDEB5EA-uv0/S-xMwtzeuNI/AAAAAAAAA3c/LCHnIuP0Ax0/s1600/JC07_3.jpg)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_UDEB5EA-uv0/S-xMwW9gvNI/AAAAAAAAA3U/6SU8XVHvbg8/s1600/JC07_4.jpg)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_UDEB5EA-uv0/S-xMwKT67MI/AAAAAAAAA3M/XoLkGirf0MU/s1600/JC07_5.jpg)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_UDEB5EA-uv0/S-xMvy_VA9I/AAAAAAAAA3E/VPlAwNsp-8I/s1600/JC07_6.jpg)
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Looks real to me. Would love to play it.
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One thing I really like in your routing is that the loops of 9 are not completely isolated from one another. The crossover between 5&6 and 15&16 is great. It ensures to some degrees that your course will not have a different feel between nines, something I don't like.
I also like the 12th. It's as close to a bunkerless green as I've seen in the submissions and a cool alps hole.
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Thanks Alex. Here is the 12th. I was happy when I found this greensite, it just looked like it needed a green on top of it between the two surrounding peaks. I had a better set of bunkers left but sketchup crashed on me and I couldn't quite recreate it.
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_UDEB5EA-uv0/S-xZGCREf7I/AAAAAAAAA4s/4u60bU2WYfE/s1600/JC12.jpg)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_UDEB5EA-uv0/S-xZGXsJPSI/AAAAAAAAA40/m9ovr8Z535E/s1600/JC12b.jpg)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_UDEB5EA-uv0/S-xY_dAuerI/AAAAAAAAA4k/A2smdX607AI/s1600/JC12_5.jpg)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_UDEB5EA-uv0/S-xY-1uyYmI/AAAAAAAAA4c/lgHScij26Fw/s1600/JC12_4.jpg)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_UDEB5EA-uv0/S-xY-Io8YRI/AAAAAAAAA4U/zQwQNGcF0GU/s1600/JC12_3.jpg)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_UDEB5EA-uv0/S-xY99F1xII/AAAAAAAAA4M/GGbEg44O4Vs/s1600/JC12_2.jpg)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_UDEB5EA-uv0/S-xY9j5DQMI/AAAAAAAAA4E/ZPneXZvGBZc/s1600/JC12_1.jpg)
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The skyline greens are very reminiscent of Stone Eagle. Does Ballyneal have a few as well? (Can't wait to see, i love skyline greens! ;D )
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Jim - After a quick scroll through it seems like there are a number of holes that have bunkers behind greens, including both greens near the clubhouse. Just curious, but why?.. I spent the last 2 days renovating 4 greenside bunkers, 1 of them was behind the green, so I have it on the mind.
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Jim - After a quick scroll through it seems like there are a number of holes that have bunkers behind greens, including both greens near the clubhouse. Just curious, but why?.. I spent the last 2 days renovating 4 greenside bunkers, 1 of them was behind the green, so I have it on the mind.
Jaeger,
I spent a lot of time 'walking' around the site in Sketchup trying to find natural spots for bunkers, simply because it looked like there should be a bunker there, not necessarily for strategic purposes. Given the dunescape look that I was assuming, I figured this was appropriate. That's definitely was what I was going for on 9, although I don't know if I executed it well in that instance.
Jim
9th Hole
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_UDEB5EA-uv0/S-yK6mEf0mI/AAAAAAAAA5s/VZOC14_xy8Q/s1600/JC09.jpg)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_UDEB5EA-uv0/S-yK6ai2wyI/AAAAAAAAA5k/sRjSksO7JWg/s1600/JC09_1.jpg)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_UDEB5EA-uv0/S-yKGEmGIAI/AAAAAAAAA5c/30Pr4_scX7I/s1600/JC09_2.jpg)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_UDEB5EA-uv0/S-yKFio13QI/AAAAAAAAA5U/EjY-mXuBiAg/s1600/JC09_3.jpg)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_UDEB5EA-uv0/S-yKFXKMQ1I/AAAAAAAAA5M/wOXWQ_5HIQQ/s1600/JC09_4.jpg)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_UDEB5EA-uv0/S-yKFC_Q71I/AAAAAAAAA5E/_Beg8eN1VPg/s1600/JC09_5.jpg)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_UDEB5EA-uv0/S-yKEypil0I/AAAAAAAAA48/es32MHS-y4U/s1600/JC09_6.jpg)
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Jim,
How many elevated, level and sub-level greens did you end up creating on your course?
It looks really interesting - I need to spend more time on it - definitely looks fun.
The reason I ask about the elevated greens is because if this is to have a real links vibe, too many (a la Tetherow) can cause serious frustration. Also, I love greens that call for downhill approaches where the run on is a true option - don't see a ton of those around but I thought one or two might fit this site.
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Rob,
I don't have the skill level to be able to find and build interesting downhill greensites. I have two: 4 & 10. I don't have a bunch of dramatically uphill holes either: 12, 14, 17. 4 and 17 are defintely connector holes.
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Jim,
Man I just love #9. The par three 9th holes is overused IMO to make a 9 & 9 routing sometimes. It was cool to see you going over some of the best ground with your 9th.
The redan 13th looks very natural the way you placed it as well.
Tell us about your different iterations of #6.
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You kids with your technology these days.
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Jim,
Man I just love #9. The par three 9th holes is overused IMO to make a 9 & 9 routing sometimes. It was cool to see you going over some of the best ground with your 9th.
The redan 13th looks very natural the way you placed it as well.
Tell us about your different iterations of #6.
Ben,
As you know I toyed with some different configurations with #6 after I submitted my entry. I had gotten some feedback on my initial design from a well-known poster here so didn't want to tweak my entry after that, but I fooled around with it in sketchup. I moved the green back and to the left into the natural punchbowl and opened up the left landing area to provide two routes to the course, a psuedo-Bottle Hole. I wish I had come up with this the first time. Of course, I did get bashed for having fairways that were too wide, so maybe I'd finish even further back in the pack. What do you guys think?
Before:
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_UDEB5EA-uv0/S-zG3cLhnsI/AAAAAAAAA58/E7aflZfeQdM/s1600/JC06.jpg)
After:
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_UDEB5EA-uv0/S-zG3Ixb1jI/AAAAAAAAA50/rYK0So_g37I/s1600/photo.jpg)
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Jim, I like the "after" design on #6 a lot. But I think it would be even better if you moved the furthest right of the short greenside bunkers to the right so it is maybe 20 yards short of the green on a centerline for those approaching from the right. Approximately how long to carry the bunkers down the right side? By the way, your design is one of my favorites. Well done.
Ed
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Jim,
You got bashed for having fairways too wide? Mine averaged around 60 yds (some up to 90 yds). That seems perplexing to me, as I thought width was the religion here...
As for your 7th hole (and my 15th), I tried to make an option to drive the green, with a big drive to the right as there is a huge kick off the backside of the hill side. The carry would be around 270 yds. But essentially they are the same hole.
Andy
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If they are criticizing for fairways being too wide, then I don't think they understand the size of the property. No one said there was any limit on budget that would mean narrow fairways to control costs. Seems to me if you build them wide, it is much easier to narrow them later. All you have to do is grow grass.
Personally, Nick's design looked like a preying mantis on that big property. I had a bad feeling for it from the get go.
EDIT: I think Bogey hit the nail on the head with his post on the other thread.
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Jim, I'm sorry I have not been following this contest closer. But, could you tell us who when and where you got bashed?
Oh yeah, almost forget...Thanx ahead of time and what's the course's slope and rating from the tips?
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Jim,
Man I just love #9. The par three 9th holes is overused IMO to make a 9 & 9 routing sometimes. It was cool to see you going over some of the best ground with your 9th.
The redan 13th looks very natural the way you placed it as well.
Tell us about your different iterations of #6.
Ben,
As you know I toyed with some different configurations with #6 after I submitted my entry. I had gotten some feedback on my initial design from a well-known poster here so didn't want to tweak my entry after that, but I fooled around with it in sketchup. I moved the green back and to the left into the natural punchbowl and opened up the left landing area to provide two routes to the course, a psuedo-Bottle Hole. I wish I had come up with this the first time. Of course, I did get bashed for having fairways that were too wide, so maybe I'd finish even further back in the pack. What do you guys think?
Before:
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_UDEB5EA-uv0/S-zG3cLhnsI/AAAAAAAAA58/E7aflZfeQdM/s1600/JC06.jpg)
After:
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_UDEB5EA-uv0/S-zG3Ixb1jI/AAAAAAAAA50/rYK0So_g37I/s1600/photo.jpg)
Again, my love affair with The Bottle hole is well documented. Which is why I asked. I saw your bunker pattern and thought "bottle" immediatly. Though I don't think it's realistic to get over the hazards, so maybe it's not a true bottle.
What I think you did with the "after" version is basically change the strategy for the bomber. The first iteration, the bomber was more likely to try and go up the right side through the chute. In the second iteration, the long hitter wants to go left possibly, for a shorter shot in with less risk to going long. The short hitter is now the guy going towards the right.
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Personally, Nick's design looked like a preying mantis on that big property. I had a bad feeling for it from the get go.
Praying mantis? Really? When did the routing turn into a bug for you?
(Probably worth explaining in the other thread. I dont want to take away from Jim's critique here)
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Jim, I had a chance to check out both Daryn and your routings last night. Also impressive on your part. A few question for him also apply to you....
Did you base your routing around a certain hole / group of holes?
What did you consider your strongest / weakest holes?
Like everyone else, I found the 7th to be my favorite within your routing. The 12th hole was a close second.
Was the 9th hole your original closing hole? My original 18th, now the 9th, was situated at the northern portion of the site like yours, except it runs in the opposite direction. Something in that area caught my eye from the start...it seems it as though it were the same for you?
Holes 1-4 seem somewhat remote compared to the rest of the routing...what was your thinking behind these four? Did you feel a need to use the entire site?
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Jim, I had a chance to check out both Daryn and your routings last night. Also impressive on your part. A few question for him also apply to you....
Did you base your routing around a certain hole / group of holes?
What did you consider your strongest / weakest holes?
Like everyone else, I found the 7th to be my favorite within your routing. The 12th hole was a close second.
Was the 9th hole your original closing hole? My original 18th, now the 9th, was situated at the northern portion of the site like yours, except it runs in the opposite direction. Something in that area caught my eye from the start...it seems it as though it were the same for you?
Holes 1-4 seem somewhat remote compared to the rest of the routing...what was your thinking behind these four? Did you feel a need to use the entire site?
Nick,
I did find a few holes and work around them. 6/7, 16 I knew was going to be some sort of par 5 using that bend in the creek, although I couldn't quite get it right. 9 and 18 seemed to be good general areas for greensites with natural clubhouse site
I really like 3, 7, 9, 11, 12, 14, 18. Weak holes are 4 & 17 which are my only two real connector holes and I wasn't able to make them very exciting.
I had 9 as a potential closing hole, but I didn't want to run due west with a closing hole. I probably could've eliminated the switchover and figured out a way for it to be the other way around, but I'm fine with how it turned out. I like tough 18th green as a finisher.
I wasn't worried about 1-4 being remote, just trying to find the best collection of 18 holes. 1 is a simple starting hole, but does the job. I like 2 and especially 3. I don't know how'd I do it any differently while still keeping the same the clubhouse spot intact. I had my entry in real early, so I had some time to play around with possible changes. Other than the possibly changing the angle / setting for 4-6 and 16, I couldn't come up with anything that was dramatically better. The only change I would make would possibly introduce that bottle hole aspect to #6 and explore not less width but more width in certain places. Just this morning I was thinking 10 would be cool if both the upper and lower fairways were part of one huge fairway with a couple bunkers banked into the hill.
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I have 4 as you weakest and 7, 11, and 16 as your strongest.
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14 is my favorite. Love the show bunkers. Making me regret not putting any on my course. :)
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Favorite:
7 (reasons already mentioned)
11 (options)
12 (fun green complex)
18 (options off the tee)
Least Favorite:
4 (straight forward)
10 (right fairway seems too forced)
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Favorite:
7 (reasons already mentioned)
11 (options)
12 (fun green complex)
18 (options off the tee)
Least Favorite:
4 (straight forward)
10 (right fairway seems too forced)
Thanks Nick. I pretty much agree with you. I don't think 10 is forced. I didn't have the right fairway originally, but when I was staring at this wide open, treeless site in sketchup I wonder why someone would go around that hill when they could just go over it. A big drive would provide a turbo kick around the corner and still at a good angle for the hole. Although I would consider changing the fairway to make it more one piece.
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_UDEB5EA-uv0/S-2qzcPyUrI/AAAAAAAAA6k/846svAkGh0s/s1600/JC10.jpg)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_UDEB5EA-uv0/S-2qzCI22XI/AAAAAAAAA6c/Dz6PgXj4OX4/s1600/JC10_1.jpg)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_UDEB5EA-uv0/S-2qzKF5-LI/AAAAAAAAA6U/UOKJ030_YgA/s1600/JC10_2.jpg)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_UDEB5EA-uv0/S-2qyuegmMI/AAAAAAAAA6M/2hvkh8QSovU/s1600/JC10_3.jpg)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_UDEB5EA-uv0/S-2qyr0KPuI/AAAAAAAAA6E/aLatW6edibo/s1600/JC10_4.jpg)
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Jim, by forced i was questioning whether the right appendage to the fairway is needed? Are you using the bisecting rough as a hazard?
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Isn't the slope of the right fairway going to carry a high percentage of balls to the intervening rough. There seems to be a very small patch that would propel landing ball primarily forward, whereas all others would take big left bounces.
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Garland, I think we are talking about the same thing. If you carry the mound off the tee, shouldn't you be rewarded rather than penalized with a left kick into the rough? If anything I would place bunkers short of the right fairway to penalize shots that don't carry the mound as intended.
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Garland, I think we are talking about the same thing. If you carry the mound off the tee, shouldn't you be rewarded rather than penalized with a left kick into the rough? If anything I would place bunkers short of the right fairway to penalize shots that don't carry the mound as intended.
It's not a huge carry so I think most golfer could make it around the corner, otherwise they shouldn't be trying. That said, I think you are right, which is why I was thinking about making it one large fairway. That might just make it a grip and rip hole, but given the length maybe that's okay.
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Jim
Why isn't 10 tee closer to 9 green?
It was only a little dirt to shift.
You could have put all the tees on the bluff too.
Cheers
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Mike,
I don't really a good answer for you. I guess it could easily be closer, but that might skew the trade-off between left and right. I have a picture in my head of what I'd like to try to do w/ #10. If I have time to fool around with Sketch-up, I'll make some tweaks and repost.
Jim
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I have a picture in my head of what I'd like to try to do w/ #10.
Isn't this the problem with all the average and poor designs out there - getting married to their ideas on the plan?
Take the better tee - use the green to reward a particular fairway location and adjust the fwy accordingly.
Assume the whole friggen' place is fwy - then take out the part that would be a waste - where no one will hit.
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Jim, this really seems spectacular and so totally influenced by your deep affinity to Ballyneal. So far, I'd have to say your's and Ed's are the two that really capture my attention the most. Not to put down the others efforts and concepts. But, it just seems to me that the concepts and reality of their vision of how this property might be in terrain and characteristics most fit with Ed's and Jims, IMHO.
I do wonder about the watercourse. The routing of 16 through the oxbows and acute turns seem to me to be a disaster waiting to happen in a heavy flash flood or heavy rain event. I think the allure for the AAC to route a split or multiple FW offering preferred sides and crossings that play into the field of play might overshadow the engineering realities of how to handle water flow.
I love the concept behind 10 with the blind right side carry to a favored approach. But, I might give it more favor at the green with moving that bunker cluster on right of green back to the right further and making it one bunker, While expanding the pregreen mid FW bunker on the approach line from the safe left FW. As to 4 being too straight forward, I think the length is the challenge, yet I might think of more forgiveness in the first LZ carry by expanding the FW to a bit infront of the carry bunkers off the diagonal tee ball to the LZ. The length of the second to a narrower layup area, and the total length to the green makes this a potential easy bogey fairly hard par, and nearly impossible birdie except for the really big bangers. IMO.
I also love the concept and array of the bunkering of 11, but if you are going to have a short par 4, then you really should make it a real and drivable par 4 at about 335-285-260 in my view. Every great course should have one, I think. The boomer green is good, something like 8 at Sand Hills.
I think you have alot of excitement in the 9th-10th-11th-12th that promotes that notion of saying the heck with a brat at the turn, I can't wait to stay in the flow of this great golf course! ;) ;D 8)
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How about something like this for #10?
Dick, thanks for the comments. As I mentioned earlier or in the other thread, I really meant a lot of the holes to play better from the greens tees, and with no set tee markers at all, the freedom and flexibility to play holes as fun short par 4's depending on the wind direction. The green tee to the front of the 11th green is 292 yards.
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Jim, after the discussion from late last week regarding the tenth, i printed out your tenth and sketched over it....the result was almost exactly what you just posted. I reversed the green angle also, like you did. Odd
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RJ - You're on target. THe problem I had was that it appeared as if the hole was designed with only one class of player in mind. Sure, you can give the big hitter a risk/reward option. But then to place hazards in the way takes from the reward (and are probably no of much consequence to someone of that caliber). However, to then look at the other way (let's call ut the 95% solution because that's the route most golfers will take - not by choice - but rather by necessity, to hinder their second shot all because you are looking to obstruct the 5% who choose not to attempt the R/R shot is something I would have a problem with.
Nick/Garland. I don't see enough in those contours to kick a ball left into the rough, If anything, I would be worried about blls running though the fairway if the just cleared and hit on the down-slope or on the flat. Since it is blind, I would probably valley-out the middle to help contain and funnel balls down the fairway. Plus, I would bring the fairway back enough to get the leading edge visable.
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I think you can still extend the fairway left to give a bit more room resulting in a safer drive, albeit tougher approach. ala 12 at Ballyneal.
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No, not that Jim! ;D I really think you have 10 right as long as the carry over the blind slot up the right is no more than 230-40 for the middle tee, and 250-270ish from the back tees for the right side. Then, as seen in this screenshot, just flip the bunker cluster of three on the right side approach with the single pot on the left side approach in the pre-green. Wrap the approach mowing a little more around the right side approach and gathering into the small pot bunker, and move any bunker there slightly back more on the right side of green, IMO.
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_UDEB5EA-uv0/S-yK6ai2wyI/AAAAAAAAA5k/sRjSksO7JWg/s1600/JC09_1.jpg)
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Wrap the approach mowing a little more around the right side approach and gathering into the small pot bunker, and move any bunker there slightly back more on the right side of green, IMO.
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_UDEB5EA-uv0/S-yK6ai2wyI/AAAAAAAAA5k/sRjSksO7JWg/s1600/JC09_1.jpg)
Dick,
Wouldn't you consider this to a redundant penalty? I may not be following you, but it seems that by moving the right bunker back you have the exact same effect as the bunker left. It seems to render it a directional penalty only, rather than all four (short, long, left, right). Again, if I read you right it doesn't properly challenge the enitre skill set on the approach.
Wyatt
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Wyatt, in my view, taking on the blind shot from the back tee to carry the hill with a few bunkers sprinkled into the hill, and a carry of 250-70 back tee (230-40 middle tee) with the potential of a slice into the junk, is challenge enough. The approach should always have some skill set demand even for the better player's risk of the carry over the blind hill. So, I think the 'proportionate' risk on approach shot is the slighter smallish vexing pot if you approach too far on the right and a little long into a gathering small pot bunker (still a fairly good up and down for par). I think that is enough to make the skill of the longer hitter still have to hit a good shot into the green with an option to bound one in on firm foregreen. As to the safe and visable tee ball shot to the left, then a cluster of carry bunkers about 20-30 yards in the foregreen, it is more distance control to go for it or an option to again play safe to the open pregreen on the right side. The fun for the lesser player is avoiding the blind tee route yet succeeding in taking on the daunting yet not that tough carry over the cluster of Bs, and forgiveness on the missed shot going a little right.
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Dick, How far back would are you wanting the bunker? Would this make the approach more difficult for the lesser player? It seems a long running approach from the angle of the safe visable landing area would force many balls into the collection bunker. Much of this discussion hinges on who wins the 9th hole because the choice of teeing grounds dictates my argument ;D. With a longer approach (from the 437yd tee), something will almost always be coming in hot. With firm and fast conditions, carrying the cross bunker and stopping the ball on the green appears to be quite difficult. From the next tee set (365yd) the ground game option is available, but would most likely not be used by the majority of players which is why I still like the cluster short right.
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Dick, How far back would are you wanting the bunker? Would this make the approach more difficult for the lesser player? It seems a long running approach from the angle of the safe visable landing area would force many balls into the collection bunker. Much of this discussion hinges on who wins the 9th hole because the choice of teeing grounds dictates my argument ;D. With a longer approach (from the 437yd tee), something will almost always be coming in hot. With firm and fast conditions, carrying the cross bunker and stopping the ball on the green appears to be quite difficult. From the next tee set (365yd) the ground game option is available, but would most likely not be used by the majority of players which is why I still like the cluster short right.
Wyatt, are you asking how far back would I like to see the small pot (maybe 6-8ft of sand diameter - and 12-15 ft diameter of collection area into it, I'd like to see it towards the back about 1-2 o'clock from the line of play into the green and plenty of clear foregreen approaching from the right side of the green. If the better player taking on the blind carry can't control his distance better than that, there seems like there should be something to penalize him. Yet it is still up and down sandy territory. Of course the contours on the green are very important. I"d envision a slight left to right general green slope with a couple of poofs or Maxwell rols mid green and a firm gentle slope come off the green left to right about 2-3 ft rise from short chiping area. I'd like to see about 20-30 yards of FW-foregreen between the cluster of Bs on the left approach with all that bailout still to the right of them for the chip and putt safe play.
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Jim, this really seems spectacular and so totally influenced by your deep affinity to Ballyneal. So far, I'd have to say your's and Ed's are the two that really capture my attention the most. Not to put down the others efforts and concepts. But, it just seems to me that the concepts and reality of their vision of how this property might be in terrain and characteristics most fit with Ed's and Jims, IMHO.
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Dick,
Here is judge Philip Spogard's input. I took this displeasure with routing over the contours was most suitably addressed to Ed's design. Do you disagree? Do you think all of Ed's blind shots directly over the contour's were a good choice? Would like to hear your thoughts on this.
Charlie,
Compliments for all the hard work you have put into this. I was amazed by the effort not only from the contestants but also from you.
As I am in the middle of moving I do not have much time these days to post individual comments to all participants - but as you know I have individual comments to each layout. I will be happy to provide individual feedback to all interested participants so please send me a PM and I will get back to you all.
My judging was mostly influenced by the individual routings and use of the land. In my opinion the ultimate solutions were the ones which naturally incoorporated all areas of interest within an 18 hole routing. With such an expansive site I looked for a layout routed among - and not over - the contours (unless well explained). Safety, interest, concept, clubhouse and facility locations, aesthetics, degree of realism, etc. were off course also important factors.
Congratulations to you all for producing such fine work - and congratulations to the winner.
Philip
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How about this for #10?
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Garland, I don't see Jim or Ed's routing excessively going over 'all' the contours at all, and certainly not to a big detriment. These are 2ft elevation lines, and I see a number of shots running diagonal or along slopes, not over them. But, some are downhill to visable LZs and some are from one high pt across a valley to an equal elevation LZ. It is really tough to really study the contours on these sketchup small screenshots.
Besides, the term "melting down" was a technique to soften the lumps used at BallyNeal for some of these sort of situations, and I don't see why such can't be employed on either of Ed or Jim's plans.
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Dick,
Ed moved this discussion to his thread. I point out 4 blind shots there.
Also, if you use Charlie's link to download the pdfs you can magnify them as needed to see details with the exception of Nick's where the contour lines were obscured by forest.
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Garland, for someone so into minimalism and lack of disturbance, you sure sound like you hate trees ;)
Dick, you can look at the hole detail sheets to see how my routing utilized the topo.
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Garland, for someone so into minimalism and lack of disturbance, you sure sound like you hate trees ;)
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I hate them so much, I spend a significant amount of time planting them. ??? Don't know where you got this hate trees thing.