Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Bill_McBride on April 13, 2010, 04:10:34 PM
-
I confess to not being as well read about the Augusta National course as I should be and as I am on other favorites. I have never been to the course. :-[
I am wondering about the front nine par 3s. Watching the tournament over the weekend, I saw more of #4 and #6 than I have seen in the past.
#4 looks like it might be based on the Eden model, albeit very lengthy, and #6 on the Redan. perhaps a little shorter.
Any insight any of you Augusta mavens can offer would be appreciated!
-
Great minds, Ace. I had considered starting the same thread.
6 particularly got me excited. It's wonderful to see more of the front nine these days.
I was surprised it was only 180yds. I had it in my head both 4 and 6 were 200+.
The Masters.com website says the 6th originally had a fronting stream, then a pond, removed in 1959.
-
I love the 6th. More than 16 and behind #12, obviously :)
I don't know what it's based on, but it's not a redan. The green has a small plateu upper right and it all feeds to the front left just over the bunker.
The putt Tiger hit 20 ft. past the hole shows how if you don't execute you might find the green, but good luck 2 putting!
-
Geoff Shackelford wrote an article recently about the similarities between Augusta and TOC. The 4th was indeed modeled after the 11th at TOC. It was originally 190-yards but it was stretched out to 240-yards by Hootie and Fazio.
-
I was looking at the book Classic Golf Holes and was very surprised to see #6 at ANGC listed as a Redan (it might have been under reverse redan). I don't see that in the hole at all. It's a steeply downhill shot to a green with all sorts of undulations, from what I saw this weekend.
-
I agree with Matthew. Don't know what the variations are on the "drop shot" par 3, but this seems like a good example. It is somewhat downhill, but the slope in the green is what really stops the ball. Whatever it is, that green makes the hole. No one would build it today.
-
I would say that looking at ANGC's 4th as based on the Eden model and the 6th based on the Redan model is a real architectural stretch.
However, and on another point, I would say for their variety, challenge and architectural interest the entire set of par 3s at ANGC just could be one of the best groups of par 3s of any course in the world. In that vein it has plenty of competitors that would include, in my own area, Merion's and Pine Valley's, and in the Boston area, Myopia's but nevertheless.....
-
Here is what Mackenzie said about these two holes, in an article he wrote for the American Golfer Magazine
#4: This hole is very similar to the
famous eleventh (Eden) at St. Andrews.
There have been scores of
attempted copies of this famous hole,
but there is none that has the charm
and thrill of the original. Most copies
are failures because of the absence of
the subtle and severe slopes which
create the excitement of the original
hole, and also because the turf is
usually so soft that any kind of a
sloppy pitch will stop. Previous failures,
followed by, comparatively speaking,
increasing successes may have
given us sufficient experience to warrant
us in hoping that here at last
we may construct a hole that will
compare favorably with the original.
#6: This will resemble the Redan Hole
at North Berwick (Scotland), but
here, owing to its extreme visibility,
lay of the land, and beauty of the
surroundings, we feel sure that we
shall be able to construct a much more
attractive hole than the original Redan.
You can read Mac's entire article at: http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/AmericanGolfer/1932/ag356p.pdf
-
Paging Bob Crosby, red courtesy phone please.........
Thanks Jim Nugent, glad to read that I'm not crazy after all these years! ;)
-
Is there a photo anywhere of #6 with a pond? I'm really curious about that one.
-
While Dr. MacKenzie did compare the sixth at Augusta to the Redan, that description was written before the hole was constructed ["we shall be able to construct ..."]. I think when they built it, they pretty much abandoned their original concept and just went with the lay of the ground. There is a pronounced fall-off from the back right to the left, but with the angle of the shot, the sharp downhill elevation change (I'd guess it's 60 feet downhill), and the different contouring of the green, I would never compare the current version to the Redan. And to the best of my knowledge, the hole has not been significantly changed since the course opened.
In fact, the sixth is a terrifying hole with its wild green, but because it is not sharply defined by bunkers or a water hazard, it usually escapes notice as a great hole.
P.S. Somewhere recently, I saw an early description I wrote of Old Macdonald, which compared the seventh hole to the Knoll hole at Piping Rock. In fact, that was the original concept ... when the hole was going to play to the front of the eighth green. Once we decided to move the green up onto the primary dune, the first day of construction, the Knoll concept went out the window.
-
Geoff Shackelford wrote an article recently about the similarities between Augusta and TOC. The 4th was indeed modeled after the 11th at TOC. It was originally 190-yards but it was stretched out to 240-yards by Hootie and Fazio.
Phil,
One of the traditions of Augusta is change, long before Hootie and Fazio got involved.
#4 was 190 in 1934, 220 in 1959-don't know for how long, 205 for the 70's 80's and 90's, and most recently 240. (but has great elasticity as they often use the front 170 tee.
#6 was 185 in 1934,190 in 1959, and is now 180
-
I spent about 45 minutes sitting by the 4th tee and green during a practice round in '05. #4 is one tough hole, especially if the hole is on the right side.
And, from the "did you know" department - did you know that #4 is the only hole at ANGC with a palm tree? It's over on the right side about 15 yards short of the green.
-
As Tom Doak stated, I don't think you can present, as evidence that # 6 is a Redan, an article written two years before the course opened.
I see nothing in # 6 that in anyway resembles a Redan
There's a 1935 photo of the 6th hole in "The Making of the Masters"
The hole appears significantly different from today's version, but, it doesn't appear to have any Redan like qualities, especially with the drastically downhill drop shot approach.
-
Phil:
Hootie was long gone when the 4th tee was moved back and to the left. One advantage of moving the tee was to create some space between that tee and the 3rd green. Players on the 4th tee often have to wait to hit while others putt on #3. Not so much anymore.
-
For what its worth, #6 isn't quite as far downhill as it appears. Per Google Earth, the drop from the back tee to the back right tier is only 14 feet and to the front left its a drop of 23 feet. And from the members tees the drop is even less. That back right tier is brutal. I've seen numerous shots to a flag there land only a few feet short of the hole and roll back off the green down the hill 40-50 yards away.
Is #4 a better hole from the members tees, even for the pros?
Ed
-
Ed:
I am willing to wager a fair amount that Google Earth is not very accurate on those elevations. What would be a decent gentlemen's wager?
I have a topo of Augusta National in my office which I can check tomorrow. I have never looked for the relative elevation change of #6, but I've been there a few times and I would swear the elevation change is at least 40 feet down to that green. But, I could be wrong -- it is somewhat misleading because the hill bottoms out at the foot of the tee and then climbs back uphill from there to the green.
-
Google earth is abysmal for accuracy to the degree needed for routing or understanding the elevation changes on a golf course...
-
Tom, no doubt you are right. While some may claim that I am neither decent nor a gentlemen, I will take your bet nevertheless. How about this: If the topo shows elevations closer to the Google Earth measurements than your guess, then you send me a copy of the drawing we discussed by IM so I can post it on the "Compilation of Routing Maps" thread. And if your guess is closer, then I will make it a point to play at least one of your courses this year that I haven't already seen*.
Ed
* Disclaimer - I can neither confirm nor deny that I am already scheduled to do so regardless of this bet.
-
I have copied the hole plans and elevational sections with their hole descriptions by Mackenzie from the 1934 Tournament program. That shows the drop on the 6th from tee down to green as being 28 feet. Seems closer to 23 than to 40!
Mackenzie's hole descriptions are now in the "we have built" tense, but that may just be some changing by the producers of the program rather than him rewriting the descriptions. Mackenzie certainly intended for No 4 to have Eden qualities and #6 to have a Redan flavour, that much we know.
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t65/Saabman2005/Hole4ANGCsketch.jpg)
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t65/Saabman2005/Hole6ANGCsketch.jpg)
-
MacKenzie's comments about the 6th suggest that the Redan was only a loose model for the hole. Which sounds about right. In its original form, there was a substantial tongue (NLE) that extended out of the front right of the green that - circa 1935 - made the Redan pedigree more plausible. The remarkable ledge back right was not so extreme on the original. Playing a running hook into the green would have been the preferred shot, maybe even for a back right pin. As at the 15th at NB. But the 6th was never going to be a real Redan because of the drop from the tee and the fact that the green is benched into a pretty severe hill. But MacK seems to acknowledge that with his comment "..owing to its extreme visibility,..."
The 4th was modeled on the 11th at TOC, but like the Edens built by CBM and Raynor, the 4th at ANGC fails to capture the extreme contours of the original. On the 1934 version of the 4th, it had something of a boomerang green. You would not have been able to putt straight at a back right pin if you left your approach on the front of the green.
Was there any other course where MacK talked about expressly basing his design on Scottish models? I can't think of one. Which makes me wonder if he was not entirely happy about describing certain of his holes at ANGC against the classic templates. Did he get pressured by Jones and Roberts to do so? I ask because I sometimes think that MacK at ANGC was actually satirizing the classic template holes, rather than trying to replicate them. He was pushing their design principles to extremes. For example, if the 6th was a Redan, given the steep hill on which it is built and the dramatic contours in the green, it was a Redan on acid.
Bob
-
For the old tongue on the 6th (NLE), see Neil's post above.
Bob
-
However, and on another point, I would say for their variety, challenge and architectural interest the entire set of par 3s at ANGC just could be one of the best groups of par 3s of any course in the world. In that vein it has plenty of competitors that would include, in my own area, Merion's and Pine Valley's, and in the Boston area, Myopia's but nevertheless.....
TE,
I'd agree. I also think the stretch of holes from 3-6 at ANGC is fantastic. I never appreciated those holes till I had a chance to see them last year. I know this is a par 3 thread, but #5 is an all world par 4 IMO.
-
#5 is probably one of the most overlooked holes at Augusta. Most patrons never get up there during their visits and TV coverage is spotty.
-
First thing that jumped out about that program was the bunkers....such a waste they are gone.
6 must be very loosely based on the Redan as I have never seen an option for a run up when the pros are in town.....
-
In the 1934 Tournament Program, the greens shapes for 4 and 6 look like mirrors of each other.
Neil, you made a key point about Mac's hole descriptions. He was already dead when they held the first Masters. The comments are so identical, it looks like ANGC edited Mac's AG article, published in 1932, two or so years earlier.
BTW, once again Roberts and Jones seem to show their dishonesty. They don't pay Mazkenzie, they use his course (to great acclaim) to hold their annual major tournament -- one they counted so important they turned down a U.S. Open to hold it -- even after he is dead they use what he wrote about it to help promote/describe the tournament/course, and they change what he said to boot.
-
Jim
yes, glad you picked up on that. Just seems someone changed the text to put it into the past tense from the future tense. Odds on that the powers that were at ANGC made the switch. Certainly not honest.
-
#4 I had a 25 footer for birdie, made double bogey, just like that :'(
#6 great green, the back right pin is awesum. Really have to hit a draw, and land it in the fringe just short and to the right of the pin. Almost impossible. I have seen great shots end with double bogies. Great place to sit and watch many groups go thru. Viewing are is terrific on this hole
-
I must confess I do not see any redan in 6 nor Eden in 4. However both are so good. I find 6 to be one of those holes at ANGC I can spend the days what them play. I will say it is not 7 or 14 for the short game creativity. But so fu to watch. 4 is just so dam hard.
-
I can definitely see a bit of the architectural genes of the Eden hole in #4 and the redan in #6 in those drawings above, and if Mackenzie said it he obviously wasn't whistling Dixie.
I also recall hearing or reading that Mackenzie apparently sent Marion Hollins to ANGC in his stead a time or two. Who knows something about that?
-
TE
I believe he sent Marion Hollins once to my knowledge. He was still owed money by ANGC and think he couldn't afford to go from CA to GA, and so asked Marion if she would go in his place. He said to ANGC that she knew as much about building golf courses and architecture as anyone, and of course she was known to Jones. What the ANGC people thought of this I can only wonder. They still owe him money.
-
Neil:
Thanks for that on Marion Hollins. That pretty much completely squares with what I remember hearing or reading. How much do you know about Marion Hollins? Have you ever read her biography? If not we should make it available to you. She was a totally amazing person in all kinds of ways and she had more friends all over the world than just about anyone I've ever heard of. To say she was definitely a person "on-the-go" at all times is putting it very mildly.
-
TE
I believe he sent Marion Hollins once to my knowledge. He was still owed money by ANGC and think he couldn't afford to go from CA to GA, and so asked Marion if she would go in his place. He said to ANGC that she knew as much about building golf courses and architecture as anyone, and of course she was known to Jones. What the ANGC people thought of this I can only wonder. They still owe him money.
Two things..
Wonder what Roberts thought about Hollins coming instead of Mackenzie
Do you know for a fact they never paid Mackenzie? I know we all talk about that fact, but is there proof? If so, that seems like something that the current club would want to fix. How much is owed? And if they were to try and fix it would they pay it to Mackenzie's estate or relatives or the Mackenzie Society, etc?