Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Rick Sides on April 12, 2010, 09:01:12 AM
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I have a question for the group. If a group of let's say 10 handicappers walked onto Augusta National today, the day after the Masters, and stepped up to back tees (about 7,400 yards) , what would he shoot? I know this sounds a bit like the US Open Challenge, but i was just curious what number a 10 handicap would honestly ( no mulligans, gimmee putts, etc) from the tips?
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I think they would have a hard time breaking 95 or so due to all the big numbers they would put up on a few holes.
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Rick,
Shame on you.
The course rating/slope would have to be adjusted to reflect the true difficulty of the course yesterday.
You should know that their index would be part of the adjustment based on the course rating/slope from 7,400+.
Hence, their 10 might convert to an 18 from the Championship tees with the greens at 13-14.
7,400+ is so long when you consider how short the par 5's are.
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Does AGNC have a rating/slope? I don't think so. I know they have their own handicapping system for members.
The golf writers,selected by lottery, usually play the course today. I remember Joe Logan or Mike Kern of the Philly papers wrote an article on their lucky day.Perhaps there will be an article tomorrow by some lucky golf writer.
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I truly believe that even if played from the second shot of the pros (first shot on par 3) the 10 handicapper would have trouble breaking 85. Yes, the pros are long. But how many times do they get it up and down? How many 3 putts? Now think about the 10. If the average score was 73 the 10 handicapper would be at least 12 shots worse, if not more, playing from the second shot. Make sense?
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One way to get a sense for this is to see how the golf writers shoot the day after the Masters. They play members' tees, not the tips. Didn't Doak say he shot high, even from those tees? Low 90s is what I recall.
My guess is the ten shoots over 100. Putting alone would cost him a lot of strokes, especially with Masters pins. Seems to me also that many par 4s would play more like par 5s. 7, 9, 10, 11, 18...and maybe 14, 17 and 1 as well.
#15 could really be a terror. Can't see the ten getting on in two. So his third shot is a short to medium iron off a steeply downhill lie, to a shallow green fronted by water. Some very high scores likely there.
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Stableford points? A 10-handicap who doesn't melt down on scary greens might do OK. Then again there might not be any such 10-handicapper extant. Medal play? Too many "others" to even sniff breaking 100 would be my guess. Couple pars, several bogeys, but a least a half-dozen 8's, 9's, 10's, whatevers when he gets in the wrong spot relative to the green and take three or four tries to get it somewhere that he can play a shot he knows how to play.
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I'll let you know tomorrow, because my friend, the golf writer for the Chicago Tribune, won a spot in the media lottery to play today. I think he's a 13 and I bet he'll shoot 105 from the members' tees.
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Does AGNC have a rating/slope? I don't think so. I know they have their own handicapping system for members.
Dean Knuth, who invented the system, has rerated it and cam up with 78.1 course rating and a slope of 137. http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-tours-news/golf-masters/2010-04/how-tough-augusta-knuth
Whic points out one of my biggest objections to the current US handicap system--the fact that there isn't enough difference between the high and low ends of slope and rating.. IMHO, having walked the course on Tuesday and Wednesday of the tournament in 2005, othere's no possibility that rating a slope are high enough to account for the difference between ANGC and a "standard" golf course.
In fact, after being there, I estimated that if I took some of the 18-20 handicappers play with at my home course there and gave them 18 GIRs in, about a significant portion of them couldn't break 90. In other words, they would average more than 3 putt If you let me pick the worst place to putt from, I bet half to three-quarters couldn't break 90.
On a hole like 15, even if they put their ball in perfect position in two, hitting that shot off a downhill lie to a green that well above them, with water in front and behind, and a surface that is firm and smoking fast is simply beyond their ability.
I am a 10 index who has is a much better chipper and putter than ballstriker, and I there are several tee shots on ANGC that i don't think i could survive from the championship tees. The 18th is a good example. From the member's tee, its tough but not impossible. From the back tee, it's like hittiing out of a high-school hallway.
And there's NO chance I could go down there today and shoot in the 90s from the back tees.
K
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I don't know what a 10 would shoot, but i'd bet he would have a ton of chips and putts.
By a ton, I mean probably upwards of half of his total strokes after he hits his first putt or chip on every hole.
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My friend who is scratch with an incredible short game played it from the back tees for two rounds when the course was wet and the greens far slower than they are for the tournament. The first round he had the round of his life and shot 76, the same score he shot earlier in the day from the members tees. The second round, he felt like he hit it just as well but shot 85. I would think faster green speeds would add a minimum of 3 shots.
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Of course I know about the handicap system and I know that a select group of the media gets to play Augusta today. I'm more interested in knowing what the 10 handicap from 7,400 yards would shoot today. I was just looking at that course thinking of how long some of those par 4's are and how terrifying some greens look. I wonder what score could be made by a 10 like me.
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Rick:
Some years ago I believe they tried an experiment something like that at Baltusrol. They brought in a fairly large number of very good mid-amateur tournament players and set the course up with similar conditioning to the recent US Open played there. Apparently none of them could break 80.
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A friend of mine played there two weeks before the Masters. He's one of the top mid-amateurs in Illinois, with a plus 1 handicap. He played in windy and cold conditions from the back tees with the greens running around 11 and shot something like 83. He thought it was harder than Butler National which is the toughest course hereabouts.
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I think I would have a chance to break 100 on the second go - as a 9 capper. I think I would need to chip and putt well to break 100 on the first go. I reckon there are a handful of par 4s I couldn't even reach from the back tee unless I creamed a drive. 7400 yard is a LONG course - way too long for a guy who carries the ball 225 yards. Bottom line, I wouldn't bet on myself to break 100 on the first go.
Ciao
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don't underestimate how your brain turns to mush for most of the round. the ability to focus and execute is impossible.
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don't underestimate how your brain turns to mush for most of the round. the ability to focus and execute is impossible.
I was just thinking the same thing. That's a great point that most people forget to factor in.
The 10s that say that they are good chippers and putters....well, that may be relative to his/her own game, but on a course like Augusta, a 10s short game will more than likely be humiliated. From there, let the meltdown begin!! ;D
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I just returned from Augusta. My guess is a 10 would shoot somewhere from 95-105 with 35 to 40 putts. Two reasons, length and lies as well as the greens would eat them up from speed and undulation. Having played Oakmont it appeared to me that the greens at Augusta were of table top speed.
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I'm a mid-single-digit player (currently a 4.5 index), but my strength is ball-striking and my weakness is the short game, especially pitching and chipping. I doubt I would break 100 as the course was set up yesterday. The only reason I hesitate is because it seems like there are plently of places where I could putt from off the green, which I'm reasonably good at.
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I will take the bet that a 10 hdcp would have a tough time breaking 90 if you put him on every green in regulation. These guys have 50-60 rounds on this course and misread putts, what would a 10 hdcp do if facing a putt from the front of 2 to that back pin placement yesterday? You could be looking at some 4 or 5 putts on those greens if you put them in the worst spots.......
I would love to have the chance to find out though, thats for sure!
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Probably depends on what the 10s game is like and where he normally plays. A 10 at Oakmont or Oakland Hills or somewhere like that wouldn't be overwhelmed by the greens, but almost anywhere else, I think it might be a shock.
I wouldn't be shocked if a 10 or 13 had a couple Xs, so are we talking adjusted score or actual... :)
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A 108 would be a double bogey on every hole. I'm about a 14 hdcp and on my best day I think I would be happy with that score.
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Shivas said this "Let me put it another, simpler way - I'll bet he takes at least 65-70 strokes from inside 40 yards. "
Shivas,
You're probably not too far off.
The posters that talk about a 10 breaking 100 need to remember that a 10 hdcp's short game is not good. Not only is it not good, but put under the details of what this thread is calling for, like I previously stated, a 10 hdcp's short game will be humiliated.
I mean no ill intent, it's just an undeniable fact.
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I've played a couple of 7,000 plus yard courses from the very back tees and as a short hitter, the biggest difference I noticed was all the fairway bunkers were out of range so unless I carved one into the trees, there wasn't much trouble from the tee.
Having said that, there aren't that many fairway bunkers at Augusta, so that may not help much ::) As a 6 handicap, with a half decent short game, I'd like to think i could make a decent showing of myself on some holes, but I bet when it starts going wrong, it goes wrong big time...
Cheers,
James
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100+.
No chance at breaking 100.
A 10 wouldn't hit the greens in reg and have basically NO chance of getting up and down.
It would be a blood bath.
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100+.
No chance at breaking 100.
A 10 wouldn't hit the greens in reg and have basically NO chance of getting up and down.
It would be a blood bath.
I'd say the problem is he would basically have NO chance of getting down in three from a bunker or short of most greens and getting down in four from over the green would probably mean sinking a five-footer.
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Shivas,
With that kind of performance, why don't you play out the 15th hole for us?
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Shivas said this "Let me put it another, simpler way - I'll bet he takes at least 65-70 strokes from inside 40 yards. "
Shivas,
You're probably not too far off.
The posters that talk about a 10 breaking 100 need to remember that a 10 hdcp's short game is not good. Not only is it not good, but put under the details of what this thread is calling for, like I previously stated, a 10 hdcp's short game will be humiliated.
I mean no ill intent, it's just an undeniable fact.
I'm a bit more than a 10 but do have a pretty good short game - everything else has deserted me. But, having played some Open courses where they slicked them up (knowing a bunch of architects were playing that day - either to impress, punish or embarrass - or all three, which is usually the outcome) I would be happy somewhere around 110. Remember, these are the best of the best and with very few penalty strokes. Most of the par 4's would play like a par 5's and there is no way we could stop it like that on those greens - so I'm thinking Double bogey ave plus a couple penalties and whala - 110+
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I am about a 6-7 handicap.
I played from the members tees around 6500 yards.
I doubt I could finish from the Masters tees at 7400 yards.
I shot 87 with 4 three putts.
Add at least 10 more shots for the extra 1000 yards for Masters tees.
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I'll let you know tomorrow, because my friend, the golf writer for the Chicago Tribune, won a spot in the media lottery to play today. I think he's a 13 and I bet he'll shoot 105 from the members' tees.
I can also report tomorrow. My brother is the golf writer for The Boston Globe, and he also won a spot in the lottery. He teed off at 11:30 this morning. He's a 6 handicap.
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100+.
No chance at breaking 100.
A 10 wouldn't hit the greens in reg and have basically NO chance of getting up and down.
It would be a blood bath.
100+.
No chance at breaking 100.
A 10 wouldn't hit the greens in reg and have basically NO chance of getting up and down.
It would be a blood bath.
Ted,
I agree, go to the the men who missed the cut and then go down to the last fifteen on that list and look at the scores. Is there anyone on this board that thinks they are better than Jim Furyk, Henrick Stenson, Craig Stadler, Vj Singh and Rory Sabattini?
I think 100 would be the low score.
Bob
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Is this a media tournament? Or is it just a fun day of golf?
Do they HAVE TO play by the rules and putt 'em all out?
Or are guys going to be lifting downhill left-to-right, two-foot sliders with the back flange of their Ping Ansers??
I'd peg the percentage of golf writers who will play 18 holes under the Rules at 5 percent or less unless there's some sort of tournament than matters to them going on....
I agree. Putting them ALL out makes a huge difference as the 2 footers are scary.
The other part oif this is whether the 10 handicapper intentionally plays for bogey most holes rather than trying to make pars and birdies. Might be able to shave a few strokes off that way, but that would be no fun..
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It seems that both Michael Campbell and Ian Woosnam finished at +20 after two rounds.
A normal course 10 handicap player would likely be triple that.
100+
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7,400 yards is too far for me so most of the long par 4's are par 5, which would add several strokes to the score.
I would like to try playing from the average professionals drive in (the shamble technique, so to speak) and hope to break 90 with some time to practice the short game.
With the greens running the speed they are today, and having to play all my off line drives from the members tees I would be happy to break 100 my 1st time around and maybe 90 my second as I would know the place a little better.
As comparison, on my only visit to PV; from the members tees, I did post a 95 and treasure the scorecard to this day.
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I think nett 90 is more like the mark for most.... so a 10 handicapper may just about break the ton. With those fast greens and sick run offs I think you would have instances of taking 5 or 6 shots from just off the green a couple of times. I would say 45 putts might equal the normal 32. I think a 10 capper might make 2 pars, maybe hit 5 greens in reg.
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Does AGNC have a rating/slope? I don't think so. I know they have their own handicapping system for members.
Dean Knuth, who invented the system, has rerated it and cam up with 78.1 course rating and a slope of 137. http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-tours-news/golf-masters/2010-04/how-tough-augusta-knuth
Interesting that he pegs the predicted average score for a 10 handicap to be 91. That seems way too low.
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Jason: I agree with you. A 10 handicap uses his best 10 out of 20 scores with most at a course he is familiar with and which probably has a rating around 71.0 and a slope of 125. I do think that the second time around would see a much lower score but from the tips my guess would be that the 10 handicapper at those green speeds would be lucky to break 100. The only thing preventing an even higher score is the lack of deep rough.
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I'd peg the percentage of golf writers who will play 18 holes under the Rules at 5 percent or less unless there's some sort of tournament than matters to them going on....
Shivas -- if you're doing an over/under on that 5 percent, I'm taking the under and running to the bank. NO one cheats at golf more than journalists....
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I'd peg the percentage of golf writers who will play 18 holes under the Rules at 5 percent or less unless there's some sort of tournament than matters to them going on....
Shivas -- if you're doing an over/under on that 5 percent, I'm taking the under and running to the bank. NO one cheats at golf more than journalists....
Presidents?...
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I'd peg the percentage of golf writers who will play 18 holes under the Rules at 5 percent or less unless there's some sort of tournament than matters to them going on....
Shivas -- if you're doing an over/under on that 5 percent, I'm taking the under and running to the bank. NO one cheats at golf more than journalists....
Presidents?...
Jim -- Too small a sample size. ;D
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Does AGNC have a rating/slope? I don't think so. I know they have their own handicapping system for members.
I would assume most members at Augusta National are members eslewhere, thereby having two handicaps. (Which is not legal in Australia, but may not be an issue in America under the Slope system)
I would be interested to know what their handicaps are at their other course(s), being that if they want a USGA handicap, one of their other courses would have to be their (USGA) home course.
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As I said in an earlier post, my brother played there today. He's a 6 handicap.
He shot 84, playing from the members' tees. He began on #1, and was even after five holes (he birdied #3), but played poorly the remaining four holes, and he turned in 41. Then on the back, he was one over for the nine standing on the 16th hole. He dunked his tee ball and made a six, then hit the Eisenhower Tree on #17 and made a double, then missed a two-foot putt to bogey #18. Yes, he played the last three holes in six over. At least you can count one journalist as having putted out all his two-footers!
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I play to a 3 handicap and playing under tournament conditions I would honestly be thrilled to break 100.
Not sure how I would handle the distance, as I don't think I've ever played a course that long not at altitude. The closest would probably be Southern Dunes from the tips and I remember both times doing that just being so tired of hitting long irons into par 4s at the end of the day.
Plus, as someone else stated, I'd be going for everything if I had even the slightest chance. Why potentially make a safe par or bogey on 13 by laying up. No, I'd be much happier remembering making an 8 knowing that it was my stupid determination to hit a three wood for my second shot that caused it!
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As I said in an earlier post, my brother played there today. He's a 6 handicap.
He shot 84, playing from the members' tees. He began on #1, and was even after five holes (he birdied #3), but played poorly the remaining four holes, and he turned in 41. Then on the back, he was one over for the nine standing on the 16th hole. He dunked his tee ball and made a six, then hit the Eisenhower Tree on #17 and made a double, then missed a two-foot putt to bogey #18. Yes, he played the last three holes in six over. At least you can count one journalist as having putted out all his two-footers!
what distance do the member tees play to?
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what distance do the member tees play to?
He said it played a little more than 6,400 yards.
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Shivas,
With that kind of performance, why don't you play out the 15th hole for us?
Jim,
I keep thinking to myself that very few of these holes can be that much more difficult than any on the C-Nine.
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IMHO, a 10 GHIN index would probably shoot at least 125.
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Just to go with the original question, I think a 10 handicap would shoot at least 120 at ANGC today. Courses like that are stupid hard. I had a scratch handicap a few years back, but on an easier course. I tried to qualify for the US Am on a course that was 7200 yards, with greens rolling 13 and rock hard. I shot 85 and was damn pleased. A 10 handicap with a even slightly spotty putter would shoot insanely high at ANGC, unless they tried to bunt the ball around or something.
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I haven't heard anyone talk about the tee shot being the dooming factor. Being on GCA.com, many of us have played diabolical green complexes with undulation and speed and have lived to at least tell about it. But Augusta is one of the tightest driving courses I've ever seen. 18 is impossible. 11 is impossible. Sounds weird to say, but 13 is impossible if you can't turn the ball over.
I remember seeing most of the 18 holes when I went to a practice round a few years ago and thinking how straight AND far you had to hit it just to get it past the chutes reasonably far away from the teeing area. A 10 'capper is hitting what, 7 fairways a round at the local course? Imagine the 10 handicapper in some of the places Tiger and Phil found themselves yesterday.
There is NO up and down for us mid-cappers where Tiger was on the 11th yesterday.
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I haven't heard anyone talk about the tee shot being the dooming factor. Being on GCA.com, many of us have played diabolical green complexes with undulation and speed and have lived to at least tell about it. But Augusta is one of the tightest driving courses I've ever seen. 18 is impossible. 11 is impossible. Sounds weird to say, but 13 is impossible if you can't turn the ball over.
I remember seeing most of the 18 holes when I went to a practice round a few years ago and thinking how straight AND far you had to hit it just to get it past the chutes reasonably far away from the teeing area. A 10 'capper is hitting what, 7 fairways a round at the local course? Imagine the 10 handicapper in some of the places Tiger and Phil found themselves yesterday.
There is NO up and down for us mid-cappers where Tiger was on the 11th yesterday.
Augusta is one of the tightest driving courses you have ever seen? Thats just plain silly. Its WIDE open with the exception of a couple of holes. And those holes look much narrower on TV than they really are. And from the member tees, where the mid cappers play, it is much more open on those holes still.
I was really surprised when I was there how big the "chute" is on 18. It looks WAY tighter than it is, and from the members tees, its really wide open.
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Sean,
I'm not a good player. I've played Olympic Lake, Riviera, and seen Augusta. I really think Augusta would be my undoing on the tee moreso than those other Tour courses were.
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Ben--
Interesting that you say that, because I think that ANGC would be less of a problem than most courses off the tee for the simple fact that there is no long rough. It's all short, tight fairway and "first cut," which is probably a little shorter than the semi-rough at most courses. I think that if a mid-handicap player does not wail away at every drive, he should be able to get the ball near the green without too much problem (relatively speaking, of course) on many holes.
Like many have said, it would be all about the game from 100 yards and in. I think a good caddy would save a 10 handicapper a whole lot of strokes around and on those greens. I really think there would be a sporting chance of breaking 100 if you gave me a 10 handicapper who went out, knew it was going to be a bloodbath, and played for bogey on every hole. I'd give such a player a 15-20% chance of breaking 100.
I am a scratch player and I have always thought that of all courses where the American major championships are held, ANGC would yield my best chance of breaking 80, largely because of the lack of long rough. Of the players in the field this year, I'd say I would be in the 20th percentile in terms of driving distance (that is to say, 80% of the field would be hitting it further than me on average). If I had a decent day hitting my irons (which I consider the strongest part of my game historically), I might be able to give myself at least a few looks at birdie, especially on the par 5s. If I did that and kept my wits about me the rest of the way, I think I might be able to shoot 78 or so.
If you took me to Bethpage or Oakmont or Medinah and had me play those courses at US Open/PGA Championship setup, I wouldn't break 85. Any shot into that kind of rough would spell at least bogey 90% of the time. But at Augusta, I'd be in short rough or pine straw (two surfaces with which I'm quite familiar, if not 100% comfortable). I love fast greens, so I think I would be excited to step up to every putt at ANGC, which might help.
NB: I played a practice round with Byeong-Hun ("Ben") An, who shot 78-77 this year, a few years ago before an AJGA tournament. If Manassero made the cut there, I think that An probably could have as well. I don't think it would be out of the realm of possibility for me to shoot 78 if I played well. So, if my scratch would be more like +6 or +7 at ANGC, I would estimate that a 10 hcp would have to add twice that, so another +12 to +14, for +22 or +24, making "par" effectively 94 or 96. I think it would be possible to break 100, but a good caddy would be crucial.
--Tim
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100 golfers with a legit 10 handicap could have played there today. No more than 2 would have broken 100, IMO. Will we ever know? Nope. Not at ANGC. But I'm confident in my belief.
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I don`t think there is a 10 handicap on the planet who would break 100 on the Masters set up. Forget about the member tees. The thread asks the question from 7400 yards.
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8) 8) 8)
A couple of nineties , maybe one guys breaks ninety and a bunch of 100 +++++ in a field of 80 ten-cappers
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Hole 1 Par 4 445 yards. Fourth shot chip on green with three putts 7
Hole 2 Par 5 575 yards Fourth shot on green two putts 6
Hole 3 Par 4 350 yards Drive into the the woods recovery shot two putts 5
Hole 4 Par 3 240 yards Green is missed and landings areas to chip to is incredibly small. Putting disaster 7
Hole 5 Par 4 455 yards On in three with three putts 6
Hole 6 Par 3 180 yards On in two with three putts 5
Hole 7 Par 4 450 Yards In bunker in two, two out, two putts 6
Hole 8 Par 5 570 Yards Five on green with three putss 8
Hole 9 Par 4 460 Yards False front kills the ten handicapper 8
Front nine score 58
I think the back would be just as difficult. So a total in the 115 range.
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If the golfer plays intelligent golf, which to me would be to forget par and try to get in correct position for a two-putt bogey, they should be in good shape to shoot right at 100.
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I am not a 10 'cap. Close to a 13 I would think. But I find that three-quarters of my doubles or worse are taken with a lost ball. On the front 9 at Augusta, how many lost balls are you going to have? Then, of the 4 forced carries over water on the back, maybe 2 of those will get lost?
I don't know why, but when I was at the course, I felt like I could have handled myself in the 90-100 range from the members tees. That's no worse than I played at Olympic. And that was from a similar "member" distance.
I just don't see all the fire and brimstone being thrown around here. Some guys are predicting average of 110. Seriously?
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I am not a 10 'cap. Close to a 13 I would think. But I find that three-quarters of my doubles or worse are taken with a lost ball. On the front 9 at Augusta, how many lost balls are you going to have? Then, of the 4 forced carries over water on the back, maybe 2 of those will get lost?
I don't know why, but when I was at the course, I felt like I could have handled myself in the 90-100 range from the members tees. That's no worse than I played at Olympic. And that was from a similar "member" distance.
I just don't see all the fire and brimstone being thrown around here. Some guys are predicting average of 110. Seriously?
Ben-The question is from 7400 yards. Aint happening.
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If the golfer plays intelligent golf, which to me would be to forget par and try to get in correct position for a two-putt bogey, they should be in good shape to shoot right at 100.
Pete,
As Mike Tyson says, "Everybody's got a game plan, until they get hit."
With those contoured and sloped greens at 13, conceeding two putts is overly generous.
I can see three, four and five putts on # 2, 3, 5, 7, 9, 10, 13, 14, 15, 16.
In addition, what you lose on TV is the depth of those bunkers. They're really, really deep.
A high handicapper, not proficient at bunker play could be in there for days.
Then, add the water hazards that can kill a round on # 11, 12, 13, 15 and 16.
Believe me, the approach to 13 and 15 is intimidating from 20 to 200 yards.
The other factor not really seen on TV is the cant of the fairways.
# 2, 3, 8, 9, 10, 11, 13, 14, 15, 17, and 18 don't present ideal lies.
Unlike TEPaul and Ran, I believe in and practice intelligent play, but even the best game plan goes awry when the golfer doesn't execute as well as he thinks.
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again, its about the 6 inches between your ears. you are freaking out that you are playing augusta.
maybe if your are Mr. Mucci and you play it all the time then maybe you can settle in and shot a decent number, but for the first timer anything short of a scratch handicap AND from the Masters tees you will struggle to break 100. period.
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The problem a 10 handicapper has in breaking 100 isn't putting at all. What's the worst he can do? Even if you have something like 9 three-putts (and I don't think it would be that many because they won't hit any or many greens) you still can recognize the numbers on your card.
From the Sunday tees - and that's what this thread is asking - decent golfers have almost no chance to get any drives in play with a chance to reach the green. For a normal guy, you have to KILL it just to get in play. Take holes like 10, 11, 13 (would play as a 3-shotter), 17 (tree encroaching), 18...you get my point.
On the other hand, predictions of 110 or 120 are way off. It isn't the kind of course where a guy is going to lose a ton of balls or incur penalty strokes on every hole. Playing their game, it won't surprise me for a 10 handicap to par holes like 13 and 15. Think of it - the big numbers the pros put up on holes there are due to attemts at heroic shots. Just about anyone in question is going to have no chance to reach 13 and 15 so they'll play conservative.
I'll say over 100 only because the tees are back so far. But not much over. 102 maybe?
No surprise for the 10 to shoot a 92 from the member tees.
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It looks WAY tighter than it is, and from the members tees, its really wide open.
The question in this thread is from the tips, though, not the members' tees. Do you think it's an easy, wide-open driving course for 10s from the Masters tees?
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If you're a 10 handicap and play smart, 87-88 is possible, common sense would be 93-95. That is if your 10 handicap player is smebody who hits it 230, fairly straight and a decent short game.
Here's why, even with the length, and actually becaue of the length, the course would not be intimidating of the tee... because the rough is short and the bunkers are out of play since they are too far for a 10 handicap.
A player playing with a bogey golf strategy on par 3 and 4... basically he is not going for green in regulation, just in good position for a pitch.
He has a realistic chance at par on the par
with that strategy expect:
3 times 3putts = lead to +2 bogey golf
1 15-footer would drop for a par = -1 bogey golf
2 times 2-putt par = -2 bogey golf
1 indirect mistake = +1 bogey golf
1 mistake = + 2 bogey golf
there you go 92
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Patrick,
My strategy allows 50 full shots (3 on 4s and 5s, 2 on 3s) and 45 putts (9 three putts) which leaves 4 foozles to keep it in double digits.
I've walked the course for three days, but somehow my collapsible club which can be hidden up my sleeve was confiscated. Have played courses with big bunkers, and I have hit it sideways or backwards to escape. Number one rule is keep it below the hole, number two rule avoid hazards, number three rule lay up to a full (pitching, sand, lob) wedge. Fourth rule is use the DH rule to my advantage.
Willl play away from the Sarazen bridge (was it there when you played ;D?) to open up the green. #15 is the only one which I know will fester.
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remember, my player is not trying any shot, just advanced the ball (driver hybrid) leave you with 50 yards or less in, dont chip for the flag, chip for 20 feet below the hole and two putt.
adrian, you said a 10 handicap would it 5 greens... not a single chance in the world, might get 2 par-5s if lucky, can't reach the par 4's in 2 strokes (too long except 3... but that's way too hard of a target to give it)... maybe hit the 6th and 16th green if lucky...
3 greens in regulation would be an accomplishement
augusta is a hit it, find it, hit it again course... so if you are smart, anything is possible and play YOUR game.
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The Sunday setup and greens at the same speed, I am currently a +3.
Don't play or practice much, but still can fly it around 270, hit my irons well, don't make a ton of putts but lag well.
If I showed up at Augusta today, my par would be somewhere around 78.
Good day chipping, maybe sniff par.
Bad day chipping/pitching, 83/84. Greens that fast with such tight lies around them, going to have a lot 8-10 footers :-[
Lay up on 15, even to the correct spot, and I would be defensive with the downhill tight lie.
And not being tournament sharp, those "going to sleep" moments are going to produce a frightening number somewhere :D
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I've just had a Twitter exchange with Shane O'Donoghue who did the post round interviews for the BBC.
He played yesterday and shot 79 gross off a 5 handicap with birdies at 2, 8, 14 & 18.
He said they played a variety of tees but played off the Masters tees at 10 holes, namely 2, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 12, 13, 15 & 16.
I've no idea of the distance difference for the members tees at 1, 4, 6, 8, 10, 14, 17 & 18 but 79 off 5 hcap seems seriously good golf to me. I assume he got some good pre round advice from Sam Torrance & Ken Brown though ;)
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If anyone is qualified to comment here its Pat..
I think he's right on the money about putting up some big numbers, cause all it takes is a few bad shots on the wrong holes and now that 10 capper is looking at 2-3 snowmen on the card. Throw in the regular dose of bogeys and double bogeys and it'd be tough to break 100.
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I wonder how many here have actually played greens rolling a 13? Where a missed 4'er can yield a longer putt coming back and you talking to yourself. The guys you were watching live on a steady diet of speed and have the touch to go with it. To be able to Hit spot say 8'over on a 30' putt that you have to just breath on is not in many 10's playbook. Not to mention them just trying to stop their approaches on the green, let alone in some specific spot. Or even knoeing where that spot is (or being able to trust the caddy if they have). And as for as off the tee, most 10's hit it about 250-270. That's still leaves a lot of real estate. Plus, if you are in the trees, most 10's aren't threading the needle like the guys on TV, so they are either punching out or playing pin-ball.
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It looks WAY tighter than it is, and from the members tees, its really wide open.
The question in this thread is from the tips, though, not the members' tees. Do you think it's an easy, wide-open driving course for 10s from the Masters tees?
Easy, no. Wide open, yes, except for a couple of holes.
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It looks WAY tighter than it is, and from the members tees, its really wide open.
The question in this thread is from the tips, though, not the members' tees. Do you think it's an easy, wide-open driving course for 10s from the Masters tees?
Easy, no. Wide open, yes, except for a couple of holes.
On TV, the holes that look real tight off the tee (tips) are: 7, 10, 11, 13, 17, 18. Am I off on any of those?
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I posted before and opined that no ten handicapper would break a hundred. I hear some of the comments about intelligent play etc., but I ask this question of everyone. How many of you play to your handicap in your own club championship qualifying round? Not many I bet.
I saw 72 low handicap amateurs trying to qualify on the Shore Course at MPCC a couple of years ago, and some of the scores were off the charts and this at 6800 yards. The greens were rolling at 13 and very few guys could handle them.
7400 yards is a long haul.
bob
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It looks WAY tighter than it is, and from the members tees, its really wide open.
The question in this thread is from the tips, though, not the members' tees. Do you think it's an easy, wide-open driving course for 10s from the Masters tees?
Easy, no. Wide open, yes, except for a couple of holes.
On TV, the holes that look real tight off the tee (tips) are: 7, 10, 11, 13, 17, 18. Am I off on any of those?
From the tips, 10 and 13 are quite open. Open is a relative term, of course, but I was honestly surprised how gid the corridors are. The other thing is that all the trees on the interior of the course are places where you would definitely find your ball, and have some sort of shot.
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I think what a "10" would shoot would depend on how the person played.
If i was a media member or if I ever got a random invite to play, I'd probably be playing with the hero's mentality. Ie. I'd try to hit the sling hook on 2 and 13. If given the chance, even a small one, I'd go for it on 13 and 15. I'd probably hit driver more than I needed to and I'd probably be firing at way too many flags hoping to make a couple of birdies.
If I was playing there a few times over a couple days, I'd probably relax and play smart. Aim for middle of the green, use some more 3 woods, etc.
I just think it'd be too tempting to try to hit a couple of hero shots if you only had one round there.
And for the record, as a 10, I think I could break 100 from the member tees and come damn close from the back tees.
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The Sunday setup and greens at the same speed, I am currently a +3.
Don't play or practice much, but still can fly it around 270, hit my irons well, don't make a ton of putts but lag well.
If I showed up at Augusta today, my par would be somewhere around 78.
Good day chipping, maybe sniff par.
Bad day chipping/pitching, 83/84. Greens that fast with such tight lies around them, going to have a lot 8-10 footers :-[
Lay up on 15, even to the correct spot, and I would be defensive with the downhill tight lie.
And not being tournament sharp, those "going to sleep" moments are going to produce a frightening number somewhere :D
Pat, as someone who has played the game for a living your comments carry the most weight with me. I was thinking as a 6 with a decent short game I could break 100; now not so sure. Your par 78 would make par for me around 90. 100 is just a couple bad holes away from that...
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The Sunday setup and greens at the same speed, I am currently a +3.
Don't play or practice much, but still can fly it around 270, hit my irons well, don't make a ton of putts but lag well.
If I showed up at Augusta today, my par would be somewhere around 78.
Good day chipping, maybe sniff par.
Bad day chipping/pitching, 83/84. Greens that fast with such tight lies around them, going to have a lot 8-10 footers :-[
Lay up on 15, even to the correct spot, and I would be defensive with the downhill tight lie.
And not being tournament sharp, those "going to sleep" moments are going to produce a frightening number somewhere :D
Pat, as someone who has played the game for a living your comments carry the most weight with me. I was thinking as a 6 with a decent short game I could break 100; now not so sure. Your par 78 would make par for me around 90. 100 is just a couple bad holes away from that...
PS These Guys Are Good.
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I'm a 5 handicap and shot 81/83 the 2 times I played Augusta from 6500 yards. The par 5's would play about the same, ditto the par 3's except for #4. Where the extra 1000 yards gets you are the par4's. They are all par 5's, not reachable in 2 except for 3 and 7. Since I would be missing all those greens, I'd have sand wedges into them. I think I could average 2 putts on them.
That puts my score at about 90 assuming I don't make more than 2 or 3 doubles. Would I bet on that score, not on your life ;D
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Cary, did you play under Masters conditions? i.e. greens running 13 or more, fairways cut tight?
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Cary, did you play under Masters conditions? i.e. greens running 13 or more, fairways cut tight?
Do you think they cut the greens or fairways? MAybe they did but I would doubt it.
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One semi comparable experience I have had is playing Hazeltine National a year before the last PGA when they tried to create a setup identical to that used in the tournament. We played the course from about 7100 yards which was about 400 yards shorter than the listed yardage for the tournament (although they did play some up tees in the tournament). We played for more money than I am used to playing for so it was not by any means a carefree round.
The experience was torture from tee to green but I am not sure the experience is that analogous to Augusta. The torture was primarily due to the rough. It literally hurt my wrists to hit anything more than a wedge.
The length was also unpleasant on the par fours. It gets very tiring to hit a hybrid or 3 wood after a good drive. It also is no fun hitting a five iron for the 3rd shot after a well hit but wayward tee shot. My experience was similar to Cary's experience. The par 3's and 5's did not play all that differently than they do from shorter tees. I can't reach many par 5's in 2 anyway.
The greens purportedly stimped at around 13 but did not bother me as much as I expected. I think I actually putted pretty well. Of course Hazeltine's greens cannot compare in the slightest to Augusta's greens in terms of slope and contour.
I was an 8 at the time, played poorly and shot in the high 90's. My scratch partner shot 78. Our opponents were 2 and 6 handicaps and shot somewhere in between.
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I don`t think there is a 10 handicap on the planet who would break 100 on the Masters set up. Forget about the member tees. The thread asks the question from 7400 yards.
100 is a lot of strokes. I am not much of a golfer now (13) but I did play 18 holes the other day in 85 (not at ANGC). I hit it terrible, had lots of 3 putts, the one thing I kept thinking was golf was amazing game in that you can hit a lot of bad shots and still make a bogey and thats what I pretty much did, couple of bad shots up to the green, rubbish pitch two putts. I am sure if I played ANGC i could get it round in -100. We play an annual tournament of the back tees, 7600 and scores do rocket but I am sure any 10 handicapper would beat 100 if he played a reasonable.
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remember, my player is not trying any shot, just advanced the ball (driver hybrid) leave you with 50 yards or less in, dont chip for the flag, chip for 20 feet below the hole and two putt.
adrian, you said a 10 handicap would it 5 greens... not a single chance in the world, might get 2 par-5s if lucky, can't reach the par 4's in 2 strokes (too long except 3... but that's way too hard of a target to give it)... maybe hit the 6th and 16th green if lucky...
3 greens in regulation would be an accomplishement
augusta is a hit it, find it, hit it again course... so if you are smart, anything is possible and play YOUR game.
Phil-Just hit it 20 feet below the hole and 2 putt? How about 3 or 4 putt or maybe worse. The 10 capper will be able to hit all his approach shots 20 feet below the hole? Produce this guy for me and I`ll get rich playing 5 and 2 with him as my partner.
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Here's a somewhat relevant question, since we're assuming that the 10 handicap is playing ANGC for the first time -- how many strokes do the pros save as a result of having played the course so many times? It seems like they have a lot more local knowledge than at, say, Oakmont, which they only play 5-6 times every ten years. And the 10 has none of that knowledge.
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Pat Burke hit the nail on the head.
A 10 wouldn't break 100 due to two or three massive numbers. I'd take the over any day.
WW
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Look its obviousy tough. But 100 is +28..TWENTY EIGHT OVER PAR. I will take the more 10 handicappers will get round in less than 28 over par, thats 9 bogies and 9 doubles for a 99.
One of things about golf is you can hit a few bad shots and still make a bogey. Id take a massive bet that Id break 100 and Im 13 hcp now.
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I have actually played Augusta the day after The Masters, in 1983, in the press day, first off the tee with George Peper. They don't mow the greens the morning after the event, so they aren't tournament-quick. I think I was an 8 handicap then. And of course, I played the course in 1983, when it wasn't 7400 yards and there wasn't any rough.
If I remember correctly, I shot in the mid-90's that day. I didn't play well, but my only real mess was on #15 as Pat Burke suggested ... sitting 100 yards short of the green in two off the downhill lie, and proceeded to make 9 on the hole after two balls in the water. (It still stings.)
Day after The Masters, I think if 100 ten-handicappers started, one of them would break 90, and maybe 20% would break 100 [depends on how freaked out they are by severe greens]. But if you subjected them to the same conditions as on Thursday-Sunday, they are all 5-10 shots worse.
I remember seeing John Harris the day after he competed as an amateur in the early 90's, as Mid-Amateur champion. He said he had played the course a couple of times before, and I said there's a big difference between November and Masters week, isn't there? And he replied that there was a big difference between Wednesday and Thursday.
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I remember seeing John Harris the day after he competed as an amateur in the early 90's, as Mid-Amateur champion. He said he had played the course a couple of times before, and I said there's a big difference between November and Masters week, isn't there? And he replied that there was a big difference between Wednesday and Thursday.
That's why I don't really care for the new GD US Open Challenge thing. I think it is very misleading.
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I give it a reasonable knock off 12 at around 260yds, I recall only one par 4 is under 430 yds, that means best case scenario is a 170yd 5 iron approach and one most holes a wood. I doubt I could reach 11 and 18 in two. Quick greens make it difficult to get close to the hole especially when chipping. Playing at Merion I hit a great 3 wood, 9 iron to the first which rolled off the back edge, I hit what I thought was a perfect chip and ended up 15 feet past the hole, result bogey and no poor shots.
The Masters pins and length make me doubt I'd break a ton, playing sensible a 10 handicapper will hit 3 or 4 poor shots in a round and at ANGC they are likely to be heavily punished.
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Look its obviousy tough. But 100 is +28..TWENTY EIGHT OVER PAR. I will take the more 10 handicappers will get round in less than 28 over par, thats 9 bogies and 9 doubles for a 99.
One of things about golf is you can hit a few bad shots and still make a bogey. Id take a massive bet that Id break 100 and Im 13 hcp now.
Being a UK 13 it's more probable, but for you to make a MASSIVE bet, I'm assuming you've never seen ANGC live during The Masters.
15 above your handicap could easily be lost on the greens
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A USGA 10 index from the tournament tees would most likely be about a 15. They should shoot that score 1 out of 5 rds with there maximum score on one hole being a 7. They would probably be around 100 on average. Augusta has nasty greens but length is what kills a 10 handicap. They could not reach 1/2 the par 4's in regulation. If they played well they could easily do it. If they played averge it would probably be close to 100. Augusta is hard but not unfair. The pros can still shoot there handicaps when they play well. When they don't they can't. Courses that cross the line are the ones that no matter how well you play you still can't shoot around your handicap.
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I remember seeing John Harris the day after he competed as an amateur in the early 90's, as Mid-Amateur champion. He said he had played the course a couple of times before, and I said there's a big difference between November and Masters week, isn't there? And he replied that there was a big difference between Wednesday and Thursday.
That's why I don't really care for the new GD US Open Challenge thing. I think it is very misleading.
I disagree with that; ANGC in November is probably not quite in tourney conditions but Augusta in March, April, and May is. Same with the US Open challenge. They have the greens rolling just as fast as in the tournament. It is not like they normally keep the greens at 9 and then they turn into 15. I am a memer at a course that had a pro tourney for 25 years, sometimes it would play harder than when they had it for the tourney, more depends on whether rather than maintenance.
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I give it a reasonable knock off 12 at around 260yds, I recall only one par 4 is under 430 yds, that means best case scenario is a 170yd 5 iron approach and one most holes a wood. I doubt I could reach 11 and 18 in two. Quick greens make it difficult to get close to the hole especially when chipping. Playing at Merion I hit a great 3 wood, 9 iron to the first which rolled off the back edge, I hit what I thought was a perfect chip and ended up 15 feet past the hole, result bogey and no poor shots.
The Masters pins and length make me doubt I'd break a ton, playing sensible a 10 handicapper will hit 3 or 4 poor shots in a round and at ANGC they are likely to be heavily punished.
Chappers
12! You no pride bastido. Get out there with a card in yer hands and play some decent golf. No wonder yer mates look sideways when you speak of handicaps - tee hee.
Ciao