Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: George Pazin on March 15, 2010, 01:54:15 PM
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A bunch of people messaged me recently with suggestions (thanks), and Gary's name showed up on more than a couple. He has been kind enough to agree to do a thread, so please welcome him with questions.
Gary has been in the golf industry for an enviable amount of time. :) I look forward to reading about his playing experiences in professional events and his experiences in different areas of the world.
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On deck: Joe Bausch
5 most recent:
Joel Zuckerman (http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,43485.0/)
Patrick Hodgdon (http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,43430.0/)
Bryan Izatt (http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,43250.0/)
Philippe Binette (http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,43177.0/)
JC Jones (http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,43128.0/)
Full list:
GTK participants (http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,42023.0/)
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Gary,
Canada,Scotland, The Carribean..... where else have you been club pro?
As a professional golfer...how many countries have you competed in?
Best clubhouse hot dog?
Your weekly game at St Andrews include some big names. Care to mention some?
Favorite hockey team/player?
THanks for playing, looking foward to you shareing your experiences.
Anthony
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Standard questions:
What brought you to golf?
Golf course architecture?
This site?
Plus one: Speaking as someone who has competed as a tour pro, how crazy are the OT golfer ranking debates we get into? :)
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I know Gary, a bit; toured him around Sagebrush when his son, Mark, was running 'dozer there for us.
I can't think of a specific question for Gary (at the moment); but, knowing what I know, I think of him as the "Forrest Gump of golf"... and, that's a compliment. Gary seems to get around and know more people in golf than nearly anyone I've met!
Which is why I look forward to following this thread :)
For those interested, Gary writes a blog at this link, too: http://www.ontgolf.ca/oldpro/
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Why does Greg Chalmers think PB is a warm weather course?
Is Pb 8 your favorite PR 4?
eVER GOT A cRUDEN bAy Face-Lick?
Because of my learning ability I thought my last name was Gary for years,
Something most americans would be surprised to khow about Canada?
Can you speek french?
Where was Moonstruck fillmed?
Can you get alu goobi in Montraul?
Have you skiied at Grey Rocks? Did you have the pig knuckles and meat balls?
Why do I enjoy a round of golf even if I don't break 90?
Anthony
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Thanks for sharing that, Jeff, I hope you can come up with some questions as well.
Thanks for the link to Gary's blog as well, that is really a thorough site, won't be the last time I check it out.
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Here is a link to the resort where Gary currently works:
http://www.canouanisland.com/ (http://www.canouanisland.com/)
Gary, I heard it through the grapevine that you have played competitive rounds with greats like Ray Floyd - I'm sure I'm not alone in hearing more about this.
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Howdy Gary
Nice articles on your blog.
What makes Doral great?
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Gary,
We exchanged a few emails (or were they Imails?) a couple of years back in which you mentioned your relationship with Moe Norman and how the officials would often try to pair you with Moe in tournament rounds. I do not recall the details but that tells me you must have many Moe Norman stories you could share?
Hopefully all is well with you and from looking at the website of your current home, it appears as though you are quite well.
Bob Jenkins
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Gary
Nice Blog. Nicer job location!
What is your teaching style?
What do you think some of the swing mechanics fads over the last few years: (1) stack and tilt; (2) one plane; (3) the Golf Machine.
Was Moe Norman a happy person?
What our your favorite five courses?
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Gary......for many years I thought Gary was my last name.
Anthony
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Gary,
Canada,Scotland, The Carribean..... where else have you been club pro?
As a professional golfer...how many countries have you competed in?
Best clubhouse hot dog?
Your weekly game at St Andrews include some big names. Care to mention some?
Favorite hockey team/player?
THanks for playing, looking foward to you shareing your experiences.
Anthony
sorry I have been off line as my login wasn't working, Ben has given me a new password and will catch up later today!
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George, I have never been a tour player, I have made a few tours though, always as a club professional moon-lighting for a week or so.
Gents, I am pleased to answer all the questions later today, have had login and computer problems (not island related!). I am honoured that there was response, I thought it might come up lame, people wanting to know more about moi.
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It has been a while since I read it, and lent it out so I can't refer to it, but are you mentioned in the book about Moe Norman, "A feeling of greatness"? How old are you Gary?
Is there some aspect of golf club culture in Canada that you could point to and say it is notably different than U.S. club golf?
Name three courses you would enjoy playing regularly, not just tough courses or stylish, but courses you would enjoy multiple rounds a week with friends because there is architecture enough to enjoy without being beaten up every day.
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Standard questions:
What brought you to golf?
Golf course architecture?
This site?
Plus one: Speaking as someone who has competed as a tour pro, how crazy are the OT golfer ranking debates we get into? :)
I was actually born in the clubhouse of the Huntsville Downs Golf Club in mid season, July 10 1945 and since my father was the GK and my mother ran the clubhouse I'm sure they both worked that day! My father had worked as a labourer during the construction of St George's Golf Club in Toronto (he drove a team with a plow) and then he landed the job in Huntsville when Stanley Thompson did Huntsville Downs GC. So I got into golf the day I was born.
Golf course architecture was always of interest, starting when I found out how great Stanley Thompson was and my dad had actually been involved with many courses - he showed me the house he had lived on when working at Summit while I was playing in the Ontario Junior - I had no idea at that time. I got more interested when I went to work in the Bahamas and played with Charles Price on the Dick Wilson designed Emerald Course. Charles got me interested by mentioning what Wilson did different on the Emerald and what he did the same as on all of his other courses. We then played the Lucayan CC and Charles told me how Craig Wood had influenced Wilson when they worked together. Craig Wood told me how they had used white silk sheets as turning points when laying out the course.
I got more interested when I opened a new Donald Haridine course in Corfu Greece in 1973. Then I went back to Canada as HP at Bayview CC in Toronto and went through course renvovations when the club sold off a couple of holes for serious money. when the National opened in Toronto I knew that it wasn't something special, it still is.
Throughout my career I wasn't really into the design of courses, only as how it influenced maintenance expenses. I knew some courses were really better than others but never realized the pedigree of the designer was the difference. I got to open the Mad River Golf Club (Bob Cupp) which when it opened in 1995 was great. Unfortunately one of the three partners was also the super and he started to immediately improve the course by replacing bent with rye in the chipping areas aqnd various other ways to ease the play for the members. I really got to like what Cupp had done, and enjoyed walking the course with him as he explained his reasoning.
I worked in Jamaica when the White Witch was being finished and opened Cinnamon Hill GC. I still think CH is the better course and for the simple reason that Rick Baril got to use a great routing from the old course. 5 years later I went back to the Bahamas and got a chance to build the new Reef Club over the former Bahama Reef course. This process, from finding an architect (from 33) to hiring the construction company (9) to opening on time for the PGA Senior Slam was fantastic.
I found out about this site from Lorne Rubenstein originally and then realized that Ben was the same Ben Cowan Dewar that I had played with in Jamaica! I can't stand some of the comments about golf carts but enjoy reading everyone's opinions. I met Richard Goodale and got to play Dornoch and Renaissance with him - super person with a fine family. One of my heros.
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Gary:
If you could only play one course for the rest of your life, which would you choose, and why?
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I was actually born in the clubhouse of the Huntsville Downs Golf Club in mid season, July 10 1945 and since my father was the GK and my mother ran the clubhouse I'm sure they both worked that day! My father had worked as a labourer during the construction of St George's Golf Club in Toronto (he drove a team with a plow) and then he landed the job in Huntsville when Stanley Thompson did Huntsville Downs GC. So I got into golf the day I was born.
Probably the coolest intro to golf I've heard of!
Correction made on the tour pro thing, got a little misinformation.
More questions to follow!
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Gary:
If you could only play one course for the rest of your life, which would you choose, and why?
One course is pretty difficult as I feel I've enjoyed parts of every course. MUIRFIELD or PRESTWICK seem to jump out (both are easy walks) but I have so many favourites. I'd love to play Lucayan or the Emerald if it was 1969 again, the Emerald is gone forever and Lucayan is not in good shape. Cypress Point would be OK too! :)
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Gary,
Canada,Scotland, The Carribean..... where else have you been club pro?
As a professional golfer...how many countries have you competed in?
Best clubhouse hot dog?
Your weekly game at St Andrews include some big names. Care to mention some?
Favorite hockey team/player?
THanks for playing, looking foward to you shareing your experiences.
Anthony
Third try Anthony - I keep getting bumped so I'll be brief:
Where have I been a pro: Canada, Bahamas (GBI and Nassau and GBI again), Corfu Greece, Canada (Horsehoe Valley then Mad River), back to the Bahamas, then Montego Bay Jamaica (same GM), then Scotland (Fairmont St Andrewss Torrance and Devlin) and now Canouan Island in St Vincent & The Grenadines (same management as Fairmont). Next, Canada! near grandchildren!
As a pro I have played in lots of countries but not always in competitions, luckily I worked with IGM and we did plenty corporate events.
My first flight was to the Bahamas then our golfshow TheSwings the Thing id a UK tour with John Jacobs and I got the travel bug. Best finish was 2nd in Danish Open in 1973 (first would have changed my future but never had the balls to play without a job!). Came 2nd in Canadian PGA and 10th in Italian Open at Ville d'este (still one of my top 100 courses). I've played in 30 some countries. with IGM we got to visit every top resort course in USA, Canada, Mexico - amazing how resorts never build staging areas for groups!
Best clubhouse hotdog - I would think it would have to be the halfway house at the National in Toronto (after 10th hole?). I don;t think I've ever had a bad hotdog! but now that I'm older I prefer a banana on the course, hot dog later. Living in the island so long you don't find many good hot dogs - none in Scotland either. Cog Hill might be near the top (dogs and course).
I was lucky to be invited to play in the Thursday Club at St Andrews. Up to 24 "members" but usually only 8 or 12 played every week. On my flight to Scotland I read George Pepers Two Years in St Andrews and the second day there I met Gordon Murray who introduced me to the boys, the St Andrews Golf Club and playing on Thursdays. Brilliant, good mix of tradesmen, George Peper (who referred to me as American every week, as in "we Americans take a lot of ...." Most of the guys are normal people, one of them owns part of Liverpool FCand a Dallas Hockey team but the rest are just lovers of the green. David Joy playes when his back is OK or when he's not somewhere in the world doing his Old Tom routines (which are really good). Interestingly many of the statues of Old Tom are actually of David! Gordon Murray is arriving here on Canoaun next Monday! If ANYONE ever needs a contact in St Andrews let me know and I'll give you Gordon's email. He still lives on the 18th, above George.
Favourite hockey team? I'm so far removed from the game - Bobby Orr has always been my favourite. At one time we (CPGA golf pros) had a hockey team in the off season and it was pretty good, many old hockey players were also golf pros, good idea of Target so they could pick up the game quickly and in the old days they actually had to work in the summers. I guess my favourite team right now is the Canadian Olympic Women's team although I think a good midget aged boys team could beat them!
enjoyed meeting you last summer Anthony, and no I have never had a Cruden Bay slurper, but then again I've never worn orange trousers into a farmers bar!
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Why does Greg Chalmers think PB is a warm weather course?
Is Pb 8 your favorite PR 4?
eVER GOT A cRUDEN bAy Face-Lick?
Because of my learning ability I thought my last name was Gary for years,
Something most americans would be surprised to khow about Canada?
Can you speek french?
Where was Moonstruck fillmed?
Can you get alu goobi in Montraul?
Have you skiied at Grey Rocks? Did you have the pig knuckles and meat balls?
Why do I enjoy a round of golf even if I don't break 90?
Anthony
No idea about Chalmers thinking PB is a warm weather course.
I do like PB 8th hole, maybe not my favourite par four though, our 12th hole here is my new favourite!
Love Cruden Bay, please post your face lick picture again.
What would surprise americans about Canadians? Not sure, was the early bird special invited in Florida to take care of French Canadian visitors? Canadians bitch about their healthcare - but try taking it away. Canadians like Americans. In Scotland I heard it almost every day that Scots and Canadians had the same problem, we hated the people who lived south of us. I always said this is not true. The future King of Britain asked me what part of america I was from (at Castle Course opening). I said the Canadian part.
I can't speak french but can understand it (about the same as the french who say they can't understand english when we give them the rates). we have some great french canadians working here.
Was Moonstruck filmed in Brooklyn or Toronto? not sure, is that a trick question?
What is Aloo Goubo?
I have skiied Grey Rocks, one of my sons worked there asan instructor a couple winters. Not sure if I had pig knuckles (although Kitchener Westmount is one of Canada's best courses and they have a great Octoberfest touney every year).
I don't enjoy a round if I can't break 90 but 99% of amateurs don't break 90 on a regular course. I think in your case it's because you are enjoying yourself with 3 other great guys and you usually are playing a good track and can blame the score on your discussion about bunker placement.
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Gary,
Thanks...very insightful and entertaining.
I loved Slapshot....is it the best hockey movie?
My favorite Hockey fouresome to golf with would be me and the three Hanson Brothers.What hockey players would fil out your foursome?
The day I played NGLA..Messier called but could not get on. Am I more famous?
How many holes-in one? Where?
Charles Blair Macdonald was born where?
Moonstruck was filmed in Toronto......very cool when the old man howled at the moon with tose dogs.
You've lived a very complete and blessed life with a wonderful wife....What is one thing you haven't done but want to?
Golf is great because of the people that play it.
Anthony
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Anthony,
I hate to break it to you, but you're not more famous than Messier... at least not in Canada, anyway ;D
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Anthony,
I hate to break it to you, but you're not more famous than Messier... at least not in Canada, anyway ;D
That day on the first tee I was. Then again I was wearing orange shorts.
ARG
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Anthony,
I hate to break it to you, but you're not more famous than Messier... at least not in Canada, anyway ;D
Messier would have trouble getting on a muni in Vancouver. His three years there were a sabbatical from hockey.
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Gary,
I believe you got to play TOC semi-regularly when you were living in Fife. How did your appreciation of it change over time? Did you go through any periods of thinking you had it sussed that some speak about, before it got your number again?
What lesser-known course in Fife should more people visit?
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Gary,
I believe you got to play TOC semi-regularly when you were living in Fife. How did your appreciation of it change over time? Did you go through any periods of thinking you had it sussed that some speak about, before it got your number again?
What lesser-known course in Fife should more people visit?
I got to enjoy the Old Course in the different seasons - I think I enjoyed the fall conditions the best. It plays longer and slower in the winter with different challenges. In my short 2.5 years the OC was fast and firm less than I had expected and it sure was different then - much shorter but more exciting, putting from 50 yards out became my go to shot! George Peper seemed to be the best in all seasons, he seemed to win our Stableford pot at least once a month, always 36 points. As much as I love the Old Course I don't think I'd enjoy it being the only course if I could play just one. I think it was the whole experience there, the course, the Thursday Club guys, the social in the St Andrews Golf Club every week - unbeatable. The one thing I did not enjoy was the constant bickering about the condition, the Links management, the policies, etc. But now I realize that's golf in Scotland!
I really enjoyed playing LUNDIN as much as any course in the area. It's where Malcom Campbell plays and I know why. Panmure was also fun to play. I regret not playing all 46 or so course in Fife. Royal Burgess (just across the bridge) was a great surprise, I loved the course, reminded me of Rosedale in Toronto. If I moved back and joined another club other than St Andrews Golf Club (no course) it would be LUNDIN in Lundin Links. I like the fact the course is Lundin and the town is Lundin Links. Anstruther clubhouse has the best food in Fife.
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Gary,
Thanks...very insightful and entertaining.
I loved Slapshot....is it the best hockey movie?
My favorite Hockey fouresome to golf with would be me and the three Hanson Brothers.What hockey players would fil out your foursome?
The day I played NGLA..Messier called but could not get on. Am I more famous?
How many holes-in one? Where?
Charles Blair Macdonald was born where?
Moonstruck was filmed in Toronto......very cool when the old man howled at the moon with tose dogs.
You've lived a very complete and blessed life with a wonderful wife....What is one thing you haven't done but want to?
Golf is great because of the people that play it.
Anthony
SLAPSHOT is my favourite hockey movie, for some reason it reminds me of Erie Pa where I played a few great courses with some former players from that rough and tumble league (which I have forgotten the name of).
My favourite hockey foursome would be Grant Fuhr (he can really play), 99, and Ed Chadwick.
I've had only two holes-in-one. The first was Pine Valley (the Canadian course that was rebuilt to be the National), 2nd hole, 225 1 iron. The second was Horsehoe Valley in Barrie Ontario, forget which hole but it was an 8 iron.. Horsehoe as far as I know was the first course designed by Eric Hanson and Al Balding, a superb testy 18 holer. Eric also was involved with Markland Wood in Toronto, the first course that I ever knew was 100% sodded with bent.
I haven't played Pine Valley! Buddy Marucci had arranged a game for a Sunday at noon and the day before while playing Hartfeld the pro rode out and said I have good news and bad news - Buddy had to go to a funeral and the game was off, the good news was we went to Congressional which is my wife's favourite course.
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Gary
Thank you for sharing
"This process, from finding an architect (from 33)"
Could you describe what was done to select an architect?
What were the criteria?
Best
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Gary
Thank you for sharing
"This process, from finding an architect (from 33)"
Could you describe what was done to select an architect?
What were the criteria?
Best
Our selection to find the architect for the New Reef Club was a bit unusual. We started by considering Ron Garl, a friend and he had worked on Grand Bahama Island years ago on the same ground. I had spent time with Ron in Lakeland and at various ING meetings. But we contacted the Association, sent our criteria to 33 different architect firms. In our info we mentioned our entire budget was $4 million. We heard back from about 15 (the responses went to our corporate office which was also building the new resort, Our Lucaya). One was interesting, Greg Norman's firm said the budget wasn't enough unless it was just the fee, and they kindly recommended another name pro. Anyway we narrowed it down to two, Ron Garl (he flew us into La to see the Moneypit under construction), and Arnold Palmer (he invited us to one of his projects in Boca West and to the offices in Jacksonville).
However, on the night before a decision was made we received a call from the parent company in Hong Kong telling us that Robert Trent Jones II was doing the course. I think because the owners were Chinese and were going to be doing more projects in China, he saw it as a good foot in the door. He called us, sent Ty Butler to check out the property and a year later we opened the course for the PGA Senior Slam, won by Hale Irwin. We sent out details to 8 construction companies and ended up with Total Golf who worked well with Ty during the year. We finished on budget but had to do a lot of "value engineering" during the process.
RTJ II was fun to work with, entertaining for sure. Not sure if he got more work in China, but for his fee we got great value.
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Gary
Nice Blog. Nicer job location!
What is your teaching style?
What do you think some of the swing mechanics fads over the last few years: (1) stack and tilt; (2) one plane; (3) the Golf Machine.
Was Moe Norman a happy person?
What our your favorite five courses?
Hello Jason,
what is my teaching style? I always try to find the best part in any situation and in teaching I always try to take advantage of the good things in anyone's swing. Because 90% of my teaching has been with corporate golfers it isn't right to rebuild their swings the day before they play with the boss so I would work on the basics, posture, grip, alignment and then whatever I could to get them to finish the swing on their left side, "buckle toward the target". Simple things that can improve existing games.
For longer term "patients" I try to get people to restrict their lower body movement during the back swing and then turn back toward the target as fast as they can - I love watching Ernie Els swing and it is slow enough that most pupils can relate to the movements. I teach Target as soon as I can, the target has to be in the minds eye before every swing. I've found if you start with a putt, then a chip, a pitch and a half swing you can get people enjoying the game quickly.
I think all the recent fads are good for some people (usually the teacher) and some people can relate to almost any "system". Stack and Tilt is the way someone said I was swinging in the 60s, then Ballard came along with his sway and hit.... I think one plane is good for certain people (engineers). When working with IBM we had different methods for the golf schools for different departments -engineers were different from sales people etc. The Golf Machine was difficult to figure out, a friend Tony Evershed spent a long time studying it and has good success teaching. My favourite teacher is Sandra Post and I don't think she has any set method other than understanding her pupils.
Was MOE NORMAN a happy person? I wouldn't think happy is a mood or condition than Moe showed. He was sincerely happy for George Knudson or Al Balding to succeed. When I came 2nd in the CPGA Moe was sitting on the 18th tee as we came up, he said "I am so happy for you, it's your day, your day!" He was happy if other people were happy, he was angry when people laughed when he hit a great shot. He was easily distracted and didn't trust many people - can you be happy then? Moe was happy when he was entertaining people, as long as they didn't laugh, clapping was appreciated, laughing was for hyenas. I think he is the most unique great golfer of his century, it's a shame none of us managed him properly so the world could have seen and appreciated him like I do...difficult thinking about Moe right now, sorry.
My favourite five courses keep changing - at one time they were all championship tracks Carmoustie, The National in Toronto, St George's, Ballybunion, Royal County Down. Then for a few years Cog Hill was my favourite course, I had to play it at least once every year.
My current five: Muirfield, County Down, St Georges, Prestwick, Royal Aberdeen. I really have trouble getting down to just five, make it a 100.
thanks for asking
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Anthony,
I hate to break it to you, but you're not more famous than Messier... at least not in Canada, anyway ;D
That day on the first tee I was. Then again I was wearing orange shorts.
ARG
Milke Smith and I were avoiding a huge buffet line in Acapulco one time and saw Jimmy Carter well back in the line, we asked him to join us and he wouldn't !
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Thank you for sharing your architect decision.
Interesting situation.
Cheers
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Anthony,
I hate to break it to you, but you're not more famous than Messier... at least not in Canada, anyway ;D
That day on the first tee I was. Then again I was wearing orange shorts.
ARG
Milke Smith and I were avoiding a huge buffet line in Acapulco one time and saw Jimmy Carter well back in the line, we asked him to join us and he wouldn't !
Oh my... Mike Smith eh? Acapulco no less. Quite the used ball business Mike had going down there!
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Gary,
I played Cinnamon Hill what must have been shortly before the redesign. In reviewing the current layout am I correct that the only holes that remain largely untouched from the pre 2001 work are 1-4, 10, 11 and 18. Is the green site for 15 the former site for a downhill par 4 green?
Must say I liked old #8, pretty intimidating little par 4. That said current 5 & 6 seems to make far better use of the land. Is 5 green all the down where 8 green used to be? Gracias.
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Gary,
I played Cinnamon Hill what must have been shortly before the redesign. In reviewing the current layout am I correct that the only holes that remain largely untouched from the pre 2001 work are 1-4, 10, 11 and 18. Is the green site for 15 the former site for a downhill par 4 green?
Must say I liked old #8, pretty intimidating little par 4. That said current 5 & 6 seems to make far better use of the land. Is 5 green all the down where 8 green used to be? Gracias.
Greg, yes the same Mike Smith who made enough in used balls to move to Santa Barbara and Palm Springs, owns IGM golf.
Cinnamon Hill renovations were done by Rick Baril and I expect he'll add his comments, he did a great job keeping a fine routing and today Cinnamon Hill represents a great variety of golf challenges, it's asuper fun course with the world's best caddies!
All of the holes got new tees, fairways and greens and you are correct that 1-4 (par 5,3,4,3), 10 (short 4), and 11 (uphill 5) were the least touched. 18 was lengthened and is a short par five with a new green across the same deep ravine.
The new 5th is the best par four running down to the sea.
The 6th is a dumb par three but in a great location, short shot across the sea. it plays in the reverse direction of a former hole.
The 7th is new (direction), 8 and 9 are new holes built over old ones running in the opposite direction.
The 15th is now a mid length par three and I believe it used to be the second shot on a wicked dog leg (James Bond was filmed on the green).
The 17th used to be a 3 shot (all with 7 irons) par five, it was turned into a super par four which I hear is still suffering from a hurricane 5 years ago.
I didn't play the old course and joined in when Rick was finishing up. Craig Martin was the GM and he negotiated the course improvement budget with the owner, Mrs Rollins.
RICK, please help....
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Gary,
I played Cinnamon Hill what must have been shortly before the redesign. In reviewing the current layout am I correct that the only holes that remain largely untouched from the pre 2001 work are 1-4, 10, 11 and 18. Is the green site for 15 the former site for a downhill par 4 green?
Must say I liked old #8, pretty intimidating little par 4. That said current 5 & 6 seems to make far better use of the land. Is 5 green all the down where 8 green used to be? Gracias.
Greg, yes the same Mike Smith who made enough in used balls to move to Santa Barbara and Palm Springs, owns IGM golf.
Cinnamon Hill renovations were done by Rick Baril and I expect he'll add his comments, he did a great job keeping a fine routing and today Cinnamon Hill represents a great variety of golf challenges, it's asuper fun course with the world's best caddies!
All of the holes got new tees, fairways and greens and you are correct that 1-4 (par 5,3,4,3), 10 (short 4), and 11 (uphill 5) were the least touched. 18 was lengthened and is a short par five with a new green across the same deep ravine.
The new 5th is the best par four running down to the sea.
The 6th is a dumb par three but in a great location, short shot across the sea. it plays in the reverse direction of a former hole.
The 7th is new (direction), 8 and 9 are new holes built over old ones running in the opposite direction.
The 15th is now a mid length par three and I believe it used to be the second shot on a wicked dog leg (James Bond was filmed on the green).
The 17th used to be a 3 shot (all with 7 irons) par five, it was turned into a super par four which I hear is still suffering from a hurricane 5 years ago.
I didn't play the old course and joined in when Rick was finishing up. Craig Martin was the GM and he negotiated the course improvement budget with the owner, Mrs Rollins.
RICK, please help....
Thanks Gary. Mike and I have shared a boss in common and his used ball stories kept me rolling considering that I understood what he was up against when the new regime took over down there.
Do you recall what old 16 had been...a long par 3 with near death left??? Or is my memory fading? Even in the old design I thought CH was as good or better than WW even given the great desparity in conditioning and the "power line hole" (14 perhpas). Interesting in that I don't recall 17 as that bad of a hole and definitely did not play it as you suggest. I think I remember having a longish iron in and going left... which was not good. 18 was a good closer even though terribly boring from the tee which was more than made up for by the approach.
Anyway, How much time did you spend in Jamaica? How did you find it as a place to live? Did you feel threatened at any time? Montego not exactly the safest place on the planet!