Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Patrick_Mucci on March 06, 2010, 10:07:04 AM
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All too often lists of the "best" holes seem to focus on difficulty and distance, not holes that present a challenge that are really fun to play.
So, what are your top 18 quirky holes ?
Quirky holes that present a challenge, not an overwhelming challenge, but, ones that are FUN to play.
I think that I'd have to consider an inordinate number of holes from NGLA.
Shinnecock would also have a good number for consideration as would Yale and Maidstone.
The NLE # 12 at GCGC would definitely be included if it was restored today.
Use the quirky hole in the order of play on its home course.
What's your "quirky" 18 ?
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All 18 holes and Links golf club in NJ. ;D
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Hole 6 at St Enodoc
Hole 17 Prestwick
Hole 17 St Andrews
Hole 13 at North Berwick
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NO PARTIAL LISTINGS PLEASE.
All 18 or nothing.
Thanks
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Pat,
You seem to be missing 17 of your own. ;)
If you decide to change the parameters and allow one hole, I'd place the 18th at Yale as the 18th hole on a mythical 18 Quirkiest list.
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Quirky, there you go again with those negative quirky waves – its not quirky ,its normal to us guys - come on stop with those quirky waves http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuStsFW4EmQ&NR=1
Melvyn
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Jim,
In thinking about this exercise it sort of occured to me that "quirky" isn't that acceptable in modern day designs.
Why was there an abundance of "quirky" holes in the classic or "Golden Age" courses when golf was less of an aerial game ?
Is it because golf was less of an aerial game ?
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Pat,
I think the aerial game is associated with fair results and good luck, while quirk is associated with bad architecture.
Perhaps quirk was more acceptable in an earlier age because it was only possible to move earth in a sane way, not in the same way as is possible today. Outside of some obvious early criticism of quirk, I really don’t think it was that unpopular until the post WW2 era.
Since that time there have been so many courses built without any hint of it that the positive aspects of having a bit of it is rarely part of the experience for a modern golfer.
As Melyvn just said, “…it’s not quirky, it’s normal to us guys….” And that’s one of the reasons I’m glad I live where I do, New England, because you can find a lot of quirky holes to appreciate around here.
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From my own experience:
Saint Andrews - 12 - I appreciate the green complex but there is nowhere to hit it off the tee.
Shoreacres - 13 - great hole but funky teeshot!
Lahinch - 5 - a par 3 where you can't see the green, need I say more?
Sorry cannot get to 18!
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Still not clear to me what you mean by 'quirky'. Holes 1-18 at Tobacco Road?
Doug
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Jim,
In thinking about this exercise it sort of occured to me that "quirky" isn't that acceptable in modern day designs.
Why was there an abundance of "quirky" holes in the classic or "Golden Age" courses when golf was less of an aerial game ?
Is it because golf was less of an aerial game ?
Patrick
Possibly because in the golden age they tended to move less dirt and just deal with what they had, indeed the actively looked for something to give a hole/course some interest.
Niall
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Doug,
I don't know the precise definition that Pat is using but 'quirk' is defined as an idiosyncracy, and idiosyncracy is defined as an individualizing characteristic or quality.
That seems to be a fairly basic explanation and should allow most golfers who are familiar with the familiar to be able to recognize 'quirk' with a reasonable amount of certainty, even though we personalize the definition.
If you've ever seen the 18th at Yale you would have very little trouble trying to fit it into the category of a hole with an 'individualizing characteristic or quality'.
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Top Quirky 18 I've Played:
1. Prestwick
2. Talking Stick
3. Westhampton
4. Lahinch
5. Lahinch
6.Pacific Dunes
7. Lawsonia
8. Pebble Beach
9. Kingsley
10. Turnberry
11. Shoreacres
12. TOC
13. Kingsley
14. Bandon Trails
15. Shoreacres
16. TOC
17. TOC
18. Yale
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Jud,
What is it about Yale's redan that you feel is quirky?
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This won't mean much to the majority here, but I'll do an all-quirky Minnesota-W. Wisconsin 18, just to prove to Jim Kennedy that you don't have to live in New England (or old England, for that matter) to find a lot of odd holes. I added a couple of extras, but couldn't remember a particularly quirky Seventh hole, so if any of our Minnesota GCA members want to add one, feel free:
1 - Hillcrest CC: 301-yd. uphill par 4 to blind green.
2 - Northland CC, Duluth (Ross): 324-yd. uphill par 4 with fairway bunker in landing area. Lay up or go for the green.
2 - Somerset CC (Raynor): 510-yard par 5, downhill tee shot, severely uphill second and approach shots to blind green.
3 U. of Minnesota (Tom Vardon): Sharp dogleg right par 4 around mature oaks to a blind and severely downhill fairway.
4 - Troy Burne, Hudson, Wis. (Lehman/Hurdzan/Fry): 312-yard blind dogleg left over bunkered hillside.
5 - North Oaks GC (Stanley Thompson): 194-yd. downhill par 3 to narrow green squeezed between steep hillsides left and trees/bunkers right.
6 - Minnesota Valley CC (Raynor): 351-yd. severe dogleg left to steep downhill fairway, approach shot to uphill elevated green.
8 - Hillcrest CC: 339-yd. dogleg right par 4 to plateau fairway that falls sharply to lower fairway; approach to push-up plateau green.
9 - Midland Hills CC (Raynor): 396-yd. blind tee shot to narrow landing are, approach shot squeezed by trees to uphill green.
10 - Minneapolis Golf Club (Ross): 210-yard par 3 over water to elevated, severely sloped back-to-front green.
10 - Oak Ridge CC (Clark): 336 uphill dogleg left around pond to elevated green.
11 - StoneRidge (Bobby Weed): Par 5 with tee shot squeezed between a barn and a big oak.
12 - White Bear Yacht Club (Watson/Vardon/Ross): 382-yard par 4, tee off over a highway to a sloped fairway, approach to blind green fronted by two bunkers located 30 yards short of green.
13 - Big Fish, Hayward, Wis. (Pete Dye/Tim Liddy): 525-yard blind downhill double dogleg.
13 - Rush Creek (Fought): 345-yard par 4, tee shot over water to narrow peninsula fairway, approach over water.
14 - Keller G.C. (Paul Coates): 350-yard par 4 downhill to small landing area between water and trees, approach to uphill blind green.
14 - White Bear Yacht Club (Watson/Vardon/Ross): 336-yard dogleg right to tiny two-tierd green.
15 - Mendakota CC: 400-yd. sharp dogleg right around/over trees to fairway that borders water left. Tight fit to leave a shorter approach; safe layup leaves long approach.
16 - The Links at Northfork (Joel Goldstrand): Split fairway (one upper plateau, one lower) par 4, approach shot to blind elevated green.
17 - Keller G.C. (Coates): Par 4 with mature shade tree in the middle of the fairway, 70 yards short of green.
18 - Interlachen CC (Ross): 413-yd dogleg right par 4 to elevated punchbowl green with false front.
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This won't mean much to the majority here, but I'll do an all-quirky Minnesota-W. Wisconsin 18, just to prove to Jim Kennedy that you don't have to live in New England (or old England, for that matter) to find a lot of odd holes.
;D ;)
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Jud,
What is it about Yale's redan that you feel is quirky?
Jim-I don`t think that 13 at Yale is quirky. The knock on this hole is that you don`t get the desired right to left kick that the original design called for but that can be fixed.
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Tim,
That's a good example of where a personal definition trumps the 'dictionary'. I don't see the minor differences in what Yale's 13th presents as quirk because there are many redans, and as a group there are quite a few that play downhill or don't have the all the kick.
I haven't seen or heard of many holes like their 18th.
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That I've played
1 TOC
2 Sandpiper
3 Wishire
4 Forrest Park CC
5 New South Wales
6 Riviera
7 Pebble
8 CPC
9 CPC
10 Riviera Not sure it qualifies, but it's cool
11 TOC Bunkers and a crossover
12 Forsgate
13 Deal (NJ) Before the changes, a cool pitch across a ditch to tiny green
14 Oak Quarry
15 Westchester
16 CPC
17 TOC
18 Carnoustie
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Tim,
That's a good example of where a personal definition trumps the 'dictionary'. I don't see the minor differences in what Yale's 13th presents as quirk because there are many redans, and as a group there are quite a few that play downhill or don't have the all the kick.
I haven't seen or heard of many holes like their 18th.
Jim-There is no other hole I`ve played that resembles 18 at Yale. There are many haters of this hole but I`m not one of them. I love the hole and even more so now that all the trees have come down and the lower fairway restored. It is certainly a hole that can ruin a round as far as score goes. Its hard to tell tells guys that have not played it not to hit driver. They say " but its a 600 yard hole" which sounds logical but you know the deal.
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Jud,
What is it about Yale's redan that you feel is quirky?
Jim,
Probably not the best choice, but I was trying to fill a hole without agonizing all day over the list! But wasn't it a bit of an unusual redan at the time?
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Jud,
I think it's more like the first island green ever built. It may have seemed quirky, or maybe even poor architecture, but the concept is mainstream now that there are probably a few hundred of them scattered around the world.
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Jud,
I think it's more like the first island green ever built. It may have seemed quirky, or maybe even poor architecture, but the concept is mainstream now that there are probably a few hundred of them scattered around the world.
Point taken...I'll go back to the drawing board and find a suitable sub!
P.S. I replaced it with #13 at Kingsley....
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Jim,
In thinking about this exercise it sort of occured to me that "quirky" isn't that acceptable in modern day designs.
Why was there an abundance of "quirky" holes in the classic or "Golden Age" courses when golf was less of an aerial game ?
Is it because golf was less of an aerial game ?
Golf critics weren't invented yet ;D
Jim S, How can you have an all MN/WI and leave some of Blackhawk CC (Madison) off? What? Golf holes that incorporate Indian Burial mounds isn't quirky enough for you? I especially liked #14 that had the greenpad of a huge arrowhead or the one that had the giant Goose
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4 Arrowtown NZ
5 Arrowtown
11 Sunningdale
12 TOC
17 TOC
17 Crystal Downs
7 Crystal Downs
13 Portsea
13,14,15 North Berwick
6 Titirangi NZ
4 Woodlands
2 NGLA
5 New South Wales
13 The Lakes
3 Royal Adelaide
17 Carnoustie
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Jim,
In thinking about this exercise it sort of occured to me that "quirky" isn't that acceptable in modern day designs.
Why was there an abundance of "quirky" holes in the classic or "Golden Age" courses when golf was less of an aerial game ?
Is it because golf was less of an aerial game ?
Patrick,
I think part of the explanatoin of lack of "quirk" in modern designs rests with the culture of modern golf. It would seem that golden age golf centered more around the golf club mentality. More courses were designed for a private clientele and even the public facilities enjoyed more of a dedicated and less transient customer base. If a player has the opportunity to play a course repeatedly, the quirk of a hole becomes charming and a unique challenge. I believe that today, far fewer players associate with a single club or even a handful of clubs. Therefore, many courses are built to attract a revolving clientele that wouldn't necessarily appreciate the strategic elements of a quirky hole in one or two playings. For that matter, the hole may even be labeled as unfair. This trend may actually be reversing as we speak. Today's best designers seem to excel at the subtle strategy (especially in and around greens) that may take several visits to fully appreciate...just a thought...
Matt
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Mike:
Many of your picks are holes where a good player might choose not to hit driver off the tee, because of something abrupt happening in the landing area. The 4th and 13th at St. Andrews would also qualify by that definition.
But you can't beat the 15th hole at Boat of Garten for quirk in the landing area ... the landing area just disappears down into a gulley!
I do agree with the general sentiment here that quirk is tougher to incorporate into modern courses. Some such features are eliminated because of safety concerns -- it's pretty much impossible to put a road or a boundary into play nowadays, and then there are other places where you have to worry about a rebound from a rock outcropping, or a steep drop in a fairway where somebody might turn over a golf cart (ugh).
Plus, there is a general expectation for new courses that the modern architect could have easily bulldozed the offending item, so anybody who gets screwed over by a bad bounce is more likely to complain. There's no architect to complain to on the 16th at North Berwick ... which Mike somehow forgot to include on his list!!
What's the quirkiest hole at St. Andrews Beach or Barnbougle?
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Tom,
I agree - how could I miss 16 at North Berwick ?- another green that you could never build these days because of the criticism it would attract.
I guess that is reinforced by the criticism of 13 at Barnbougle - which qualifies as quirky. Needless to say it is loved and loathed in equal measure.
If I had to pick another it would be 8 with the split fairway and the blind pitch after a lay-up.
At St Andrews Beach I think the blind green - for shorter hitters - at 1 is quirky. Many would have put that green to the right so you could see it from the fairway.
I would include the greensite at 3 as a quirky feature.
Speaking of rock outcroppings - I played at Jack's Point a couple of weeks ago and at the 2nd hole - a long uphill par four - there are rock outcroppings right and left of the fairway in the driving area.
The guy I was playing with was telling me about a golfer who had recently lost an eye when he thinned a long iron into the rock and it came back and hit him
My partner then proceeded to take a rescue club and whack it straight into the rocks - and fortunately it rebounded sideways but it is all to easy for it to come straight back.
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14 Cruden Bay....the blind 2nd to a bath tub green.
Prestwick 1.....Stone wall and railroad down the right.
Royal County Down 9...Great tee shot and gren site behind the riidge on the right. Bunkers guard the low entry. How many architects would have put the green infront of the ridge?
3 at Prestwick ... The Cardinal
2 Kiawa Ocean..love itSimiliar to 3 at Prestwick.
17 Sawgrass
Kinsbarns 8....you can putt it.
Bandon Trails 14...Fights the land.Straight hole that never plays straight. Awesome green.
Spyglass 4...memorable green.
Chambers Bay 16...green complex.
Harbour Towne 9...boomerang green.
Bandon Dunes 16...short but tricky
Teeth of the dog 5... in the ocean.
NGLA 3... a classic.
Prestwick 5...blind par three over a mountain.
These haven't been mentiond yet.
Anthony
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Anthony,
I like your list, but how can you have Kiawah's 2nd and Prestwick's 3rd which you say are similar? Doesn't quirk distinguish the hole from others?
I am not very familiar with Prestwick so an explanation of the similarities and differences would be much appreciated.
thanks
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Anthony,
I like your list, but how can you have Kiawah's 2nd and Prestwick's 3rd which you say are similar? Doesn't quirk distinguish the hole from others?
I am not very familiar with Prestwick so an explanation of the similarities and differences would be much appreciated.
thanks
First and second shots are both over hazards and both the long and short misses are punished. Neither tee ball is a driver. Both par 5s with similiar shot values on each shot. Similar tee ball,second and approach.
Anthony
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I also like 2 at Dornach. Looks like they just kept piling up dirt and forgot to stop.
Anthony
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1. Franklin Hills
2. Harrison Hills (Langford) punchbowl
3. Oak Tree (Dye) 580 yards lively topography
4. Fishers Island
5. Longmeadow crosses 2 gullies, onlly 318 yards !!
6 Oak Hill West rollercoaster par five
7. Lawsonia boxcar
8. Prairie Dunes
9. CC of Troy one of Travis' greatest greens
10 NCR (Wilson) 530 downhill to a magnificent green complex
11. CC of Buffalo Quarry !! 408 yards
12 Forsgate 145 yards
13. Oklahoma City (Maxwell) bommerang par 5
14. White Bear Yacht 350 yards
15. Round Hill (Travis) semiblind
16. Calclub !! 135 yards
17. Longmeadow ( Ross)
18. Yale
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1) Yeamans Hall, 420 yards, Par 4
2) Irondequoit, 170, Par 3
3) The Ocean Course, 390 Yards, Par 4
4) Huntercombe, 330 Yards, Par 4
5) Sandwich, 415 Yards, Par 4
6) CC of Buffalo, 175 yards, Par 3
7) Fox Chapel, 300 Yards, Par 4
8. Irondequoit, 420, Par 4
9) Durand Eastman, 435, Par 5
Out) 3050 yards, Par 35
10) The Country Club, 300 Yards, Par 4
11) Kettle Brook, 525 Yards, Par 5
12) Leatherstocking, 130 Yards, Par 3
13) CC of Buffalo, 560 yards, Par 5
14) Canterbury Woods, 360, Par 4
15) CC of Rochester, 460 Yards, Par 5
16) Teugega, 410 Yards, Par 4
17) Long Shadow, 195 Yards, Par 3
18) Hanover Country Club, 470 Yards, Par 5
In) 3310 Yards, Par 38
Total) 6360 Yards, Par 73
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1. Franklin Hills
2. Harrison Hills (Langford) punchbowl
3. NGLA
4. Fishers Island
5. Friars Head
6. BCC 5 Farms
7. Lawsonia
8. Prairie Dunes
9. CC of Troy
10 NCR
11. Mayfield
12 Forsgate
13. Oklahoma City (Maxwell) bommerang par 5
15. Round Hill Travis
16. Calclub 135 yards
17. Longmeadow Ross
18. Yale
Mark,
I'm surprised to see that you did not include any holes from Irondequoit. The front nine there is one of the quirkiest in the Northeast, no?
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1. Franklin Hills
2. Harrison Hills (Langford) punchbowl
3. NGLA
4. Fishers Island
5. Friars Head
6. BCC 5 Farms
7. Lawsonia
8. Prairie Dunes
9. CC of Troy
10 NCR
11. Mayfield
12 Forsgate
13. Oklahoma City (Maxwell) bommerang par 5
15. Round Hill Travis
16. Calclub 135 yards
17. Longmeadow Ross
18. Yale
Mark- Raynor was fond of the blind shot second. Is this what makes`s # 4 quirky for you at Fishers? No disputing it is a great hole and one everybody remembers.
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Painswick enough said
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I don't think I can come up with 18 holes, but how about 16 at Harbour Town. There is a tree smack dab in the middle of the fairway right as the hole doglegs at 260 yards. Smack dab in the middle of the DAMN fairway!!
5 (I think it is 5) at Longshadow...another tree in the middle of the fairway. No dogleg on this one, but right in your line of attack.
16 TPC Sawgrass...again tree cutting off the line of attack to the green and in the middle of the fairway...but more greenside than the others.
I can't say 17 at Sawgrass is quirky...as quirky to me implies interesting/unique architecture with a positive aura...17 to me isn't interesting, so I simply call it goofy.
8 at Longaberger...At the tee box you can decide to approach the green from the low side or the high side of this severely sloped
fairway. The high side is safer, but you will have to deal with a massive side hill lie as you approach the peninsula
green. The low side can give you a flat lie and a closer approach, but you will challenge the rough, some trees,
and the water.
Heck...maybe I can do 18...I'll stop now and think some more and update if I can get a18 holes.
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Alright...I think I got it...
1--Secession...opening hole, forced carry over the marsh, fairway is shallow and doglegs right. Tough opener.
2--Rio Secco...lunar landing site; weird
3--Currahee...par 3 forced carry over a seemingly bottomless pit; green has a false front
4--Charlie Yates...80ish yard hole that drops 30+ yards with a fat bunker in front of the green and a lake behind it
5--Longshadow...as I mentioned above a tree in the middle of the fairway
6--Lookout Mountain...tee box is a rocky crag, like a mountain...it's the Raynor "Short"
7--Legends at Chateau Elan...95 yard tee shot down hill to a funky green guarded by bunker.
8--Longaberger...see above post
9--St. Marlo...severly uphill hole that ends with even more uphill antics as the green is perched on a rocky cliff
10--Inverness...shares a tee box and fairway bunkers with hole #1
11--Golf Club of GA Lakeside...cool hole!! long par 5 that plays into a penninsula green
12--Pete Dye Golf Club of WV...drivable par 4, but the green is hidden behind a hill
13--Cuscowilla...tough hole, uphill, long, tricky green
14--Stonehouse...I think I've got the right hole...MASSIVE drop from the middle of the fairway to the green
15--Achasta...par 5 with a 100 yard wide river in the middle of the fairway
16--Harbour Town...see above post.
17--Black Diamond Ranch Quarry...225 yard par 3 playing down into the quarry...green looks awesome!
18--East Lake...longish par 3, 'tweener hole in the context of what club to hit.
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I like Mark's list. Some others that come to mind the 17th at Crystal Downs, 2nd at Mayfield, the 2-or-20 hole at Engineers, the Heinz 57 hole at Hollywood, the 13th at Franklin Hills, the 16th at Cape Breton, the 17th at Columbia, 6th at Pebble Beach, 18th at CPC, 15th at Canterbury, 10th and 6th at Riviera, and the 16th at NGLA.
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Interesting that, so far, no one picked the five and dime hole at Ridgewood.
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#17 Pete Dye Golf Club (Bridgeport, WV)
#11 Bahia de los Sueños (La Paz, Baja California Sur)
#12 Cinnamon Hill (Rose Hall, Jamaica)
#10 Port Royal Golf Club (Bermuda)
#2 Sandals Resort (St Lucia)
#5 Club Campestre San José (Cabo)
#9 Querencia Golf Club (Cabo)
#12 Golf Club of West Virginia (Waverly, WV)
#12 Oxbow Golf Club (Belpre, Ohio)
#17 The Dunes Course @ Diamante (Cabo)
#18 Americana Host Farms, (Lancaster, PA)
#15 Tannenhauf Golf Club (Alliance, Ohio)
#9 Sewickley Heights Golf Club (Sewickley, PA)
#14 Sandpiper Golf Club (Lakeland, FL)
#6 Scotland Yards Golf Club (Dade City, FL)
#14 Guyan Golf & CC (Huntington, WV)
#5 Long Cove Club (Hilton Head, SC)
#17 Guyan Golf & CC (Huntington, WV)
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Greg...17 at PDGC of WV...nice one...what a green!
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Interesting that, so far, no one picked the five and dime hole at Ridgewood.
Equally as interesting: no list, so far, from the creator of this topic. ;)
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Pat:
Ridgewood's five & dime is a good choice - a better one is the 10th at Alpine.
You won't see any modern hole designed the way that hole is today.
It climbs no less than 100 feet straight up and the green is angled to easily provide a quick three-jack.
The hole was even more quirky when the trees -- which since have been cut -- were part of the mix.
Gents:
#18 had Yale has to be the closing hole -- again, you would not see such a closer given today's design styles.
If you want a really fun and quirky starting hole - the 1st at Sanctuary by Jim Engh does that for me. Play the Rattlesnake tees and it will give you all the thrills and unpredictability one could ever want.
The 2nd at Wolf Creek (Mesquite, NV) has got be also considered a prime candidate. Just the walk back to the champ tee (provided they give you oxygen when you get there) can be enough of an issue for most. When you stand and gaze upon what you need to do from an execution standpoint -- it makes you simply hope for the best.
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Matt -- How about #1 at Black Mesa? I know you like the hole better than I do, but that's quirk on a plate.
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http://www.imperialklubgolf.com/index_sub.asp?fuseaction=Course
Take your pick ;D
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Jim Kennedy,
I don't think I'd be far off by naming most of the holes at NGLA.
My initial, off the top of my head list might look like this
Holes 1, 2, 3 and 4 would probably be from NGLA.
# 6 probably Ridgewood Center (5 &10)
# 7 probably PBGC
# 8 probably NGLA
# 9 and # 10 probably Shinnecock although Yales #'s 9 and 10 could fit
# 11 probably NGLA
# 17 probably TPC
# 18 Yale
I'll fill in more "probable" blanks later this week
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Jim Kennedy,
I don't think I'd be far off by naming most of the holes at NGLA.
My initial, off the top of my head list might look like this
Holes 1, 2, 3 and 4 would probably be from NGLA.
# 6 probably Ridgewood Center (5 &10)
# 7 probably PBGC
# 8 probably NGLA
# 9 and # 10 probably Shinnecock although Yales #'s 9 and 10 could fit
# 11 probably NGLA
# 17 probably TPC
# 18 Yale
I'll fill in more "probable" blanks later this week
Isn't NGLA's 4th a prototype for every MRB Redan hole in the US? Would such a hole qualify as quirky?
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Royal North Devon #6 might be in contention.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/tomwilliamsen/RoyalNorthDevon6.jpg)
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Surprise not to see any Mike Strantz yet ...
At Royal New Kent the first 15 holes have to be quirky on steroids.
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JNC,
Have you ever played # 4 at NGLA ?
If you have, would you say it's "quirky" ?
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Carl...no Strantz? You must not have read my 18.
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I'll try to come up with a list of Arizona holes, keeping in mind I haven't played but a couple of private courses out here.
1: WeKoPa (Cholla). Short par 4 with a downhill drive over a waste area at an angle so that it sets up almost like a cape hole.
2: Talking Stick North. Par 5 that looks as simple as can be but offers myriad strategic options.
3: Ventana Canyon (Mountain). Unique just because no one else would even try (or be able to) build a hole like this. Not much more than 100 yards, but all or nothing.
4: WeKoPa (Saguaro). A very long par 5 that plays over a huge hill, making the second shot blind. Very wide fairway provides lots of angles and options.
5: StoneRidge. A short downhill par 4. You could theoretically try to hit driver toward the green. Otherwise, you can play anything from a short to a long iron, depending on how much you want challenge the dogleg.
6: Trilogy at Vistancia. Par 4 with lots of driving options as it plays to the right around a large hill off the tee.
7: Vistal Golf Club. Short par 4 playing uphill into the face of a mountain. Ssecond shot has to carry deep bunkers fronting the green and find an extremely shallow green with desert rocks directly behind.
8: WeKoPa (Cholla). Nothing like having to play two good shots just to have a 160-yard third shot into a par 5 from a downhill lie.
9: The Gallery (North). 700 yard par 5 with a very downhill tee shot. The longest hole I've ever played, which makes it "unique," though there aren't too many options for play here.
10: Del Lago. A long, downhill par 4. The tee shot prefers a right to left ball, but the approach is best player left to right around the pond fronting the green.
11: Arizona National. Par 5 with a blind drive and a wash in front of the green.
12: Talking Stick (North). Multiple options of the tee with a fairway divided by a wash.
13: Raven at Verrado. Short, but very uphill par 4. A shallow green and the front third is a false front. Lots of ways to play it, lots of ways to make birdie, lots of ways to make double.
14: Vistoso. Short par 4. You can go straight at the green, pay over the desrt to the right, or play short to an island fairway.
15: Starr Pass (original layout, now #6 on Coyote Nine). Mid length par 4 up and over a hill with a rock formation cutting in to the landing zone at the top of the hill from the left. Try to drive past it? Lay up short of it? Hit it in the small gap? Any option you take from the tee leaves a tricky downhill second shot.
16: Grayhawk (Raptor). Clever downhill par 3. The hole has a large green and tons of room to bail out right. But a large hill cutting in from the right ensures you cannot see the bailout area, nor even all of the green. What you see is the hazard left, and not much else.
17: Forest Highlands (Canyon). Extremely downhill hole with a split fairway.
18: Troon North (Monument). Clever mid length par 4. Water left isn't much in play with a wide fairway. The elevated green has a serious false front and several unique levels.
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I would have expected at least 6 holes at Astoria to have been mentioned by now. I don't remember the individual holes well enough to list them, but it is, by far, the strangest course I have ever seen, and fun.
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Alrighty...here goes...I tried to limit it to one per course AND stick to the correct hole number. Here's my best effort...
#1 Black Mesa
#2 Wolf Creek, NV
#3 Kingsley Club
#4 Lost Dunes
#5 Lakota Canyon Ranch
#6 Riviera CC
#7 Signal Point Club, Michigan (not sure I love this one, but its quirky!)
#8 Crystal Downs
#9 Forest Highlands Canyon
#10 Idaho Club
#11 Black Rock, Idaho
#12 Chambers Bay (love the green)
#13 Blackwolf Run River
#14 Angels Crossing
#15 Rock Creek (not sure how quirky this is, but I needed a #15)
#16 Wolf Run
#17 Cypress Point (trees in the middle count for me)
#18 Southern Highlands, Las Vegas
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I have yet to see the quirkiest hole in America listed:
The 8th at The Maidstone
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This is what I come up with so far using the holes I have played which are the best of the funky in the same order as they appear in real life. I am not entirely happy with #s 2 & 7. I know there is some serious funk at Perranporth, but for the life of me I can't pull the hole numbers out of my head.
1. Tobacco Road - 547 Honourable Mention: North Berwick
2. Huntercombe - 402
3. Cruden Bay - 264 Deal
4. St Enodoc - 279 HM: Pennard, Tobacco Road, Sandwich
5. Lahinch - 148 HM: Portrush Valley, Strandhill
6. St Enodoc - 364
7. Pennard - 351 HM: Painswick
8. Burnham & Berrow Channel - 117
9. Carne - 272
10. Temple - 235 HM: Painswick, St Enodoc, Portrush Valley (I should use Portrush Valley but the punchbowl at Temple is truly unique)
11. Painswick - 229 HM: Nefyn, Tobacco Road, West Cornwall
12. Enniscrone - 345 HM: Nefyn, Porthmadog
13. North Berwick - 362 HM: Rye, Strandhill, Prestwick, Tobacco Road, Enniscrone, Governors Club, Prestwick
14. The Island - 318 HM: North Berwick, Cruden Bay, St Enodoc
15. Formby - 403 HM: Prestwick, Burnham & Berrow
16. North Bewick - 349 HM: Aberdovey, N Wales
17. TOC - 436 HM: Pennard, Prestwick
18. Kington - 285 HM: Carne
Par 71
Total Yards 5841
Ciao
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Patrick, why so adamant about 18 holes. It seems like a completely arbitrary number to me in this context.
Thanks,
Ian
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1-TOC
4- Kilspindie (if not quirky then one of the best short 4s anywhere)
6- Riv
8- Troon
10- Pasatiempo (disclaimer- original tee so you hit over the road)
12- TOC
13- Sea Hole (The Glen, North Berwick)
16- North Berwick (no brainer- wall in front of the tee, burn at 200yds, the wildest green ever)
17- TOC
18- CPC
If we have to have 18 then fill all the blanks with Brora. Any hole that has electric fences around the green gets the quirky nod, even if it is not an added difficulty. You wouldnt say that if you slipped while straddling one! A Dornoch/Brora 36 hole day is my idea of heaven.
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Alrighty...here goes...I tried to limit it to one per course AND stick to the correct hole number. Here's my best effort...
#1 Black Mesa
#2 Wolf Creek, NV
#3 Kingsley Club
#4 Lost Dunes
#5 Lakota Canyon Ranch
#6 Riviera CC
#7 Signal Point Club, Michigan (not sure I love this one, but its quirky!)
#8 Crystal Downs
#9 Forest Highlands Canyon
#10 Idaho Club
#11 Black Rock, Idaho
#12 Chambers Bay (love the green)
#13 Blackwolf Run River
#14 Angels Crossing
#15 Rock Creek (not sure how quirky this is, but I needed a #15)
#16 Wolf Run
#17 Cypress Point (trees in the middle count for me)
#18 Southern Highlands, Las Vegas
I agree with Forest Highlands #9. I had it on my list until I decided The Gallery hole was an even stranger experience to play.
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Following Sean's example, a quick stap the top 18 quirky links holes in Ireland, with holes numbered as they actually are played on the course (or used to be)
1- Ardglass
2- Portsalon
3- Belvoir Park
4 - Lahinch
5 – Lahinch
6- Cruit Island
7- Rosslare
8- Strandhill
9- County Down
10- Ballycastle
11- Carne
12 - Enniscone
13 Strandhill
14- Baltray
15 – Ballybunion New
16- Waterville
17 - Rosses Point
18- Laytown and Bettystown
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Here’s my list, which features a large number of blind shots, so Prestwick features prominently. I wanted to add something from Dooks like 13 or 18 but I don’t know what the recent renovations have done to those once-quirky holes.
1. Elie!
2. Talking Stick North (though maybe less quirky than simply a great golf hole)
3. Prestwick Cardinal
4.Lahinch
5.Prestwick Himalayas
6. Pacific Dunes
7.Ballyneal
8.Pacific Dunes (for right side of the green, perhaps my favorite bit of quirk anywhere)
9. RCD
10. Elie
11. RCD (bookend of #9)
12. Fossil Trace
13.North Berwick
14.The Island
15. Boat of Garten (agreeing with T. Doak)
16. Black Mesa
17.Prestwick Alps
18. Golspie (a blind second shot to the home hole?)
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Throw in another hole -- the short par-4 14th at Sand Hollow in Hurricane, UT should be one to consider.
Agree w those who included the 1st at BM -- does provide plenty of quirky outcomes -- much of it tied to the mental games the hole plays with player's heads.
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Lake Chabot in Oakland, Ca.
680 par 6 18th all downhill and reachable in two on dry summer months.
150 yd par 3 ninth with a 100+ ft drop shot
Plenty of elevated and uphill drives including one over the road entrance to the course.
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18 at Diablo CC in Danville is one, with trees all over the fairway.....
No mention of 4 at Spyglass i dont think. Pretty funky green imo...
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I have yet to see the quirkiest hole in America listed:
The 8th at The Maidstone
Gene,
We need to get you to Goat Hill.
#8 at Maidstone would seem downright conventional-i
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Patrick, why so adamant about 18 holes. It seems like a completely arbitrary number to me in this context.
Ian,
Feel free to initiate a thread not limited to or requiring 18 holes.
There's a challenge in matching the hole # to the list hole #.
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I have yet to see the quirkiest hole in America listed:
The 8th at The Maidstone
Gene,
We need to get you to Goat Hill.
#8 at Maidstone would seem downright conventional-i
Jeff:
Give me a call before the season gets in full swing and I'll take the ferry over there with you.
Gene
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Gene,
We need to get you to Goat Hill.
#8 at Maidstone would seem downright conventional-i
Many memories......
(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_2Xl4i0c72t8/SmElQQ_OrxI/AAAAAAAACgw/xXmbwKDqY_I/DSCN3187.JPG)
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The best example I can think of is the original 2nd at Weston (Toronto) designed by Willie Park. I’ll post the old image tonight when I get home.
The approach played under a massive railroad trestle to a green on the other side. Players had to judge not only the distance but occasionally the height of the approach to avoid this most unusual potential hazard.
I have played the hole to that green (which exists but is long abandoned) and the approach is one of the most intimidating and fun I have tried. You certainly would need an incredible sense of humour to play this on a regular basis.
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How bout the Mass. version:
1. Bass Rocks (Leeds), 340 yards, up over a hill and a public road, with OB on both sides and blind rock outcroppings.
2. Concord CC (Ross), 420 yards, crazy sloping fairway after a blind drive.
3. Beverly Golf & Tennis (Stiles), 150 yards, straight uphill to totally blind green. Flagstick is 25 feet tall!
4. George Wright GC (Ross), 420 yards, sloping fairway that is tough to hit, blind downhill approach shot with long iron.
5. Eastward Ho! (Fowler), 525 yards, no flat lies to be found here, and blind at every turn!
6. Myopia (Leeds), 260 yards, you have to go for it, right? Small stream short left protects safe-side miss.
7. Weston GC (Ross), 340 yards, weird layup tee shot requires a draw, shallow green juts out into a pond.
8. Essex CC (Ross), 430 yards, wildly-sloped fairway, and very small and strange green where you can bounce it in.
9. Granite Links (Sanford), 310 yards, where do you hit it off the tee?
10. TCC (Campbell, Flynn), 310 yards, awkward layup and totally blind approach over a berm to a severe green.
11. Kittansett (Flynn), 240 yards, long par three with weird two-leveled green.
12. Tedesco (Stiles), 375 yards, shelves on the drive, uneven lies, unforgiving very elevated shelf green.
13. Salem CC (Ross), 340 yards, blind bowl fairway to very quirky green.
14. Far Corner (Cornish), 375 yards, uphill to a VERY narrow and penal fairway that drops off to the left.
15. President's (Fazios), 510 yards, question mark par 5. Water off the tee, drop, 6-iron to the green, two putt par.
16. Myopia (Leeds), 172 yards, good luck holding the green.
17. Kernwood (Ross), 125 yards. Blind uphill par 3 to a shallow green.
18. Essex (Ross), 410 yards. Fun tee shot over the brow of the hill with many slopes involved.
Harder than I thought...and I'm sure there are many substitutes. Par 36-34-70, 6052 yards.
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The best example I can think of is the original 2nd at Weston (Toronto) designed by Willie Park. I’ll post the old image tonight when I get home.
The approach played under a massive railroad trestle to a green on the other side. Players had to judge not only the distance but occasionally the height of the approach to avoid this most unusual potential hazard.
I have played the hole to that green (which exists but is long abandoned) and the approach is one of the most intimidating and fun I have tried. You certainly would need an incredible sense of humour to play this on a regular basis.
Ian
I think I know what you mean by a rail tressle, is it basically raised tracks on a timber platform that brdiges a gulley ?
If I'm correct then its like a hole Park designed in 1895 at Glencorse where he has a hole play over a burn and under a viaduct. The club is still going but not sure if they still play over the same course. I'll ask Ed to post the plan on the plans/routings thread.
Niall
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#18 at StoneRidge in prescott Valley, Az (I had #5 from the same course on my AZ list). Par 5 with a largely blind drive leading to either a "go for it" second shot that seems ridiculous or a lay up that is again blind, leading to an uphill blind third.
One of those holes I hated the first time I played and now like since I'm familiar with it.
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Great topic, but what constitues a quirky hole? Does the word connote audacity, unfairness, unusualness . . . ?
Anyway, whatever it means I like to think of quirky holes as old friends, and so my list will be by name rather than course and number. If anyone can identify all of these I will be impressed.
Scots Maiden
Railway
Sea Headrig
Narrows
Klondyke
Dell
Pit
Gate
Whins
Fiachra
The Burrows
Brock's Hollow
Heathery Out
Road
Whym Wham
Black Rock
Blind Pew
Little Devil
Every endearing hole should have a name.
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OK, I'll take a crack at it, 18 odd holes in my little universe:
1 - Pacific Dunes
2 - NGLA (Sahara)
3 - Old Macdonald (Sahara), Pasatiempo
4 - Spyglass Hill, Stone Eagle
5 - Crystal Downs
6 - Riviera
7 - Ballyneal
8 - Augusta National
9 - Yale, though Kinloch's controversial par-5 9th is really quirky.
Too many short 4s on the front nine.
10 - Friar's Head, Pasatiempo
11 - Rock Creek Cattle Company
12 - Stanford University
13 - North Berwick, Kingsley Club
14 - Pebble Beach
15 - North Berwick, Kingsley Club, Pirate's Plank @ Cape Kidnappers
16 - Bandon Dunes
17 - The Road Hole
18 - Pasatiempo
I assume we're picking quirky holes that we like, if possible. North Berwick has to have my favorite closing stretch of quirky holes. The back nine on a sunny day is to die for. In general, my list features rather non-controversial choices. It would be a helluva 18 hole course, though.
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Wade,
Defining "quirky" ?
Like obscenity, you may not be able to define it, but, you know it when you see/play it.
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OK, I'll take a crack at it, 18 odd holes in my little universe:
8 - Augusta National
John, why #8 at ANGC?
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Jim,
I agree, I don't see anything "quirky" about # 8 at ANGC, but, maybe he sees something I don't.
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The green complex for #8 ANGC seems pretty quirky to me.
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The green complex for #8 ANGC seems pretty quirky to me.
I would agree that #8 green and surrounds is a bit quirky- a cool hole that requires a thoughtful layup( if doing so) followed by a well judged pitch
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The green complex for #8 ANGC seems pretty quirky to me.
What about it makes it seem "quirky" to you ?
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Well, the green is pretty funky, with the long mound guarding the left side. Too bad the fairway bunker carry of the tee makes it impossible to approach the green from the right side of the fairway. The design strongly encourages a layup well right of the green, which is cool.
I couldn't think of a really cool, quirky #8 (other than Ballyneal, which is pretty wild), and thought of the unusual 8th at Augusta, and said what the hell, I'll throw it out there. Always fun to watch the second shots roll into the green on TV.