Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Morgan Clawson on March 04, 2010, 12:49:29 PM
-
Here are the best 18 holes in America (Each hole is in the same position that it occupies on its own course):
1. Merion - Par 4 360 Yards
2. Scioto Par 4 436 Yards
3. Olympic Par 3 220 Yards
4. Baltusrol Par 3 183 yards
5. Colonial Par 4 459 Yards
6. Seminole Par 4 388 Yards
7. Pine Valley Par 5 570 Yards
8. Prairie Dunes Par 4 424 Yards
9. Champions Par 5 538 Yards
10. Winged Foot Par 3 191 Yards
11. Merion Par 4 378 Yards
12. Augusta National Par 3 155 Yards
13. The Dunes (Myrtle Beach) Par 5 560 Yards
14. Cherry Hills Par 4 460 Yards
15. Oakmont Par 4 458 Yards
16. Oakland Hills Par 4 405 Yards
17. Quail Creek (Oklahoma City) Par 4 459 yards
18. Pebble Beach Par 5 530 Yards
These 18 holes were selected by Dan Jenkins after consulting with USGA Exec Director Joseph Dey, Byron Nelson and amateur Charlie Coe. The selection was published in Sports Illustrated in February, 1965.
So, it has been 45 years since these selections were made. Given our current portfolio of courses:
Which of these holes should be off the list?
Which have stood the test of time?
-
My favorite story about that list is about the 17th at Quail Creek. As I have heard it, Jenkins threw in the hole partly as a favor to Ernie Vossler, who was the pro there, I believe. But they had switched the nines on the golf course by then, so it wasn't even the hole Jenkins was thinking of that made the list.
You could throw off the first five holes and find better alternatives pretty easily, but #9 and #17 are the two holes which really had no business being included.
-
How many architecture pieces has Jenkins written? Would he know an RTJ from a, well, another RTJ?
-
If you want to see the updated list, see the fantasy draft thread and look for my picks ;) ;D
-
Dan Jenkins' List might not be the most architecturally viable list. However, I still love reading this book. It is a great introduction into some of the nation's great course. I am also fascinated by Ben Hogan's 54 Hole addendum at the back of the book.
The one I have seen that I would seriously question is the 1st Hole at Merion. To me, Merion's first is the least inspiring hole on the golf course. I have seen many superior starting holes at courses both world class and less than world class.
The two big published eclectic 18 lists from that era are the Jenkins list and Pat Ward-Thomas' list in the World Atlas of Golf. After seeing both opening holes (PWT's selection is Sandwich), I was underwhelmed by both selections. Frankly both holes are among the weakest on their respective courses.
-
Isn't there a list in the Confidential Guide too?
-
I think Dan Jenkins actually did an updated list about 10 years ago. Which I remember because he picked the 8th at the Dunes Club as the best 8th hole in the country.
-
his front nine from 2000:
No. 1: Sand Hills Golf Club
No. 2: Rio Secco Golf Club
No. 3: Ventana Canyon
No. 4: Bear Creek Golf Club
No. 5, Cullasaja Club
No. 6: Links at Spanish Bay
No. 7: Bay Harbor Golf Club (Quarry 9)
No. 8: The Dunes Club
No. 9: Barton Creek Country Club and Resort
-
his back nine from 2000:
No. 10, Castle Pines Golf Club
No. 11, Mira Vista Golf Club
No. 12, The Challenge at Manele
No. 13, Shadow Glen Golf Club
No. 14, Muirfield Village G.C.
No. 15, Black Diamond Ranch Golf & Country Club (Quarry Course)
No. 16, Blackwolf Run G.C. (River Course)
No. 17, TPC at Sawgrass (Stadium Course)
No. 18, Harbour Town Golf Links
-
Boy, if that 2000 updated list isn't a warning sign about the downside of aging....
-
All-time best
Below are Dan Jenkins' picks for his all-time best 18 holes. It works out
to a par 35-37--72. If you're counting, half of the holes are from his
original Best 18 from 35 years ago.
The front nine:
Old/
Hole Course Designer Par New
1 Sand Hills Crenshaw 5 new
2 Rio Secco Rees Jones 4 new
3 Ventana Canyon Tom Fazio 3 new
4 Baltusrol Lower Trent Jones 3 old
5 Colonial Maxwell 4 old
6 Seminole Donald Ross 4 old
7 Pine Valley Crump, Colt 5 old
8 Prairie Dunes Maxwell 4 old
9 Barton Creek Tom Fazio 3 new
The back nine:
Old/
Hole Course Designer Par New
10 Castle Pines Nicklaus 4 new
11 Merion Hugh Wilson 4 old
12 Augusta National Mackenzie 3 old
13 The Dunes Trent Jones 5 old
14 Muirfield Village Nicklaus 4 new
15 Black Diamond Tom Fazio 4 new
16 Blackwolf Run Pete Dye 5 new
17 TPC Stadium Pete Dye 3 new
18 Pebble Beach J. Neville 5 old
-
Dan Jenkins must have missed Shinnecock, NGLA and Cypress Point ?
Personally - if you cant find a hole from one of them.......
-
Kevin,
That's a worthwhile point for debate...which one(s) would you plug in?
I would go for 10, 11 or 16 at Shinnecock...even though I haven't played Blackwolf Run or Castle Pines.
-
I think an interesting comparison would be Golf magazine's 2000 18 holes of the millenium if someone could pull them up and post them...
-
How Bethpage #4 & #5 aren't mentioned here is unbelievable !
-
How could anyone leave off 16 at Cypress Point from a greatest hole list? ???
-
Complete hogwash...
Any list not starting with Cypress Point #16 is just fodder
If the best courses don't have the best holes then what the bleep is it that makes them the best???
Duh!
-
Kevin P,
How about ditching Ventana Canyon for NGLA #3? That seems more logical.
-
Kevin P,
How about ditching Ventana Canyon for NGLA #3? That seems more logical.
Yeah I was thinking the 3rd @ Chicago GC would be a good fit there also.
-
I have a really fond memory of the original list because it was the first time I ever heard of some of these courses. Plus there were a lot of pictures, most in color which was pretty unusual back then. I used to fight with my brother over who would get to read SI first. He was bigger so I usually lost. In those days SI was huge - no ESPN or coverage of out-of-town teams.
Jenkins declared that Merion was the greatest course in America, probably because it had two holes in the original 18.
-
Jenkins declared that Merion was the greatest course in America, probably because it had two holes in the original 18.
and because Hogan won there :)
-
I had forgotten about Jenkins' "new" list, which was at least as bad as the old one. Ron Whitten helped him out with it ... I will bet $$ that Jenkins has never been to The Dunes Club, among others. And as far as I know, he's never seen anything I've built.
-
I had forgotten about Jenkins' "new" list, which was at least as bad as the old one. Ron Whitten helped him out with it ... I will bet $$ that Jenkins has never been to The Dunes Club, among others. And as far as I know, he's never seen anything I've built.
A modern top 18 would be interesting now 10 years later with all the good stuff that has been built since 2000. I'll nominate your 4th hole at Tumble Creek as one that most here haven't played but is world class imo. My favorite par 5 you have built.
-
How Bethpage #4 & #5 aren't mentioned here is unbelievable !
Couldn't agree more! If someone is uncomfortable of back to back holes from the same course then substitute #4 from Torrey Pines South.
-
You could go with 4 at Inverness. :)
-
How Bethpage #4 & #5 aren't mentioned here is unbelievable !
Keith: If you had been to Bethpage in 1965, I think you would probably understand the omission of those two holes.
Likewise, Kevin, I suspect that in the sixties Dan Jenkins had never seen Shinnecock and National. Not sure why he would have omitted Cypress Point, but maybe the club didn't want the publicity and he didn't want to burn a bridge there.
-
The best eclectic 18 I've seen is the one Ian Andrew posted here a couple of years ago ... even if he didn't include any of my courses.
-
What I don't get is how he goes from #1 at Sand Hills (no argument from most) to this....
Rio Secco #2
(http://i618.photobucket.com/albums/tt263/dfjb23/Hole2_pic21.jpg)
There has to be a personal story behind this for Jenkins. It doesn't make any sense.
-
What I don't get is how he goes from #1 at Sand Hills (no argument from most) to this....
Rio Secco #2
(http://i618.photobucket.com/albums/tt263/dfjb23/Hole2_pic21.jpg)
There has to be a personal story behind this for Jenkins. It doesn't make any sense.
Please make sure your seat belts are securely fastened...we are cleared for landing.
-
How Bethpage #4 & #5 aren't mentioned here is unbelievable !
Couldn't agree more! If someone is uncomfortable of back to back holes from the same course then substitute #4 from Torrey Pines South.
I'd bet my life that when Jenkins compiled the second list, he had never played or seen Bethpage.
...I mean Hogan hadn't won there.......
But based on his hysterical anecdotes about Goat Hills in Texas, he would've liked it in its pre Rees form.
-
Kevin et al
Jenkins did include NGLA and Shinnecock selections in his runner up holes. If memory serves me those choices were the Redan at National and numbers 10 and 16 at Shinnecock Hills
He also considered courses that were true hidden gems in the 1960s and 1970s. Desert Forest in Arizona and LANGFORD'S Wakonda, for example.
-
What I don't get is how he goes from #1 at Sand Hills (no argument from most) to this....
Rio Secco #2
(http://i618.photobucket.com/albums/tt263/dfjb23/Hole2_pic21.jpg)
There has to be a personal story behind this for Jenkins. It doesn't make any sense.
Good job Dan, I can certainly see how you could rank that better THAN EVERY SINGLE SECOND HOLE IN THE ENTIRE UNITED STATES!!!
That would be the equivalent of saying Tropicana Field is the best stadium in the history of Major League Baseball :D
-
It seems to me this exerscise is a mobious strip of where am I now and how do I get out of here?
It lacks nor will ever have any firmament.
-
After thinking about this for a second, knowing DJ's humor, some of these holes he must of picked off the top of his head.
-
It seems to me this exerscise is a mobious strip of where am I now and how do I get out of here?
It lacks nor will ever have any firmament.
Haven't you just described the discussion of anything on the internet? Kudos for prompting me to google mobius strip though. That's one new thing that I learned today. :)
-
Tom,
I found your answer to Keith, "If you had been to Bethpage in 1965, I think you would probably understand the omission of those two holes..." more than a little intriguing because you took him to task for not having seen the course when you, yourself, had also NOT seen the course at that time. You make the assumption that the course was in very poor condition.
Well, as one who saw those two holes, not in 1965, but did so in 1967 and numerous other times in the 1960s (now I'm feeling old!) I can state with a certainty that even though the course was scruffy and not maintained to anything even remotely close to what it is today, most courses weren't even some of the "great" ones. Those two holes were monumentally grand for any and all to see and inspired many to want to learn about what makes a golf course great regardless of their playing ability or even age.
I think you are being a bit inconsistent in asking that your opinion of the course and holes at a certain time period be given credence while you ask that Keith's is not when the truth is that neither of you had seen the course in 1965 or anywhere even close to it. ;)
Now in all seriousness, whether either or both 4 & 5 of Bethpage Black deserved to be on a list of the best 18 holes back then is debatable. That Jenkins deserved to have at least played the holes he cited, as all agree he hadn't, shows more than a bit of poor research at the very least and is why he is being taken to task for it, as he well should be...
-
Dan Jenkins must have missed Shinnecock, NGLA and Cypress Point ?
Personally - if you cant find a hole from one of them.......
Here, here, and what about Riviera?
-
In the 1965 article he said that he played all 18 of the holes:
"The holes, which add up to a dream course, were chosen by Sports Illustrated after consultation with three men who have seen hundreds of U.S. courses: USGA Executive Director Joseph Dey, Professional Byron Nelson and Amateur Charlie Coe. While in the final process of selecting the Best 18, Dan Jenkins, an 8-handicap golfer, played them all. He describes the holes, and tells howalashe fared."
Bethpage Black was largely unknown here in the Midwest until it was selected for the US Open. Not sure if that was the case in the East. I love the fact that it is now in the rotation.
-
Kevin,
That's a worthwhile point for debate...which one(s) would you plug in?
I would go for 10, 11 or 16 at Shinnecock...even though I haven't played Blackwolf Run or Castle Pines.
Jim
Nor have I played the courses you mention but I'd have a hard time believing someone who cant find at least one hole from the 3 courses I listed as not worthy for selection in an original 18 of the "best" in America.
I would have to add 14 into the Shinnecock mix at the very least.
-
;D 8) ;D
the 7th at Pine Valley, while a wonderful par 5 , is not the best hole at the course by any means. I'd say number 1, 2, 5 . 8 . 13. 15 are all better.