Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Tim Liddy on October 25, 2009, 04:52:19 PM
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Just think if Augusta decided to be “Brown” this spring. No over-seeding of rye grass, just dormant bermuda. It would be a great example for the rest of the golf world.
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I heard a rumor that Augusta is not considering your proposal...
It strikes me as odd that a course which is only open 6 months out of the year requires seasonal overseeding.
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It might be a better example of the financial turmoil in the world ...
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A brown ANGC would be as out of place as a lush TOC.
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Augusta National is not overseeded; that is why it is closed in the summer; there is no bermuda underneath it. It is only rye grass.
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Augusta National is not overseeded; that is why it is closed in the summer; there is no bermuda underneath it. It is only rye grass.
Incorrect, ANGC has Bermuda grass tees & fairways. Even during masters week if you look closely you can see the Bermuda coming through in the high traffic areas. I've driven the golf course with Marsh Benson in July when the whole place is Bermuda except for the greens obviously.
This article talks of the fall overseeding:
http://www.augusta.com/masters/masters/natural_beauty.shtml
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I hope Kenny is not a superintendent.
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I am not a super.
That article may be accurate but it is kind of a throw away line and does not quote anyone from the club. I do not understand the planting of Rye grass but I can with 75% absolute certainty ;D say that Augusta's bermuda turf is just there for the purpose of being overseeded. From what I have always been told it is not kept playable; I was under the impression that is why it is closed for the entire summer. You may have to have some bermuda underneath to seed rye.
I have always been curious about this and it actually came up in conversation the other day; PAGING any supers who know.
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The course was over seeded with 'Italian rye' in its very first season, during the Depression, as a cost saving measure for the extremely wide fairways. Seems like some things never change. It does look sweet in April and hope this year is fast and firm.
Dormant bermuda is fine until about February in my area, and then the bermuda can get a little worn. Lies get very tight and many bring out the Texas wedge. And that is without any cart traffic.
After the winter rains flow down the dormant bermuda hills and slopes for several months, every single blade of grass is very flat and obviously the slopes can become quite fast and shots roll quite a distance from any raised green.
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Just think if Augusta decided to be “Brown” this spring. No over-seeding of rye grass, just dormant bermuda. It would be a great example for the rest of the golf world.
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Tim,
Where do you live?
I think the membership and tournament comitee at ANGC always want the fways to play firm and fast, obviously they do so with the greens. Up until 1999 they didn't have rough. I agree that a little brown would not do anyone any harm but in my expierence (in Atlanta) dormant bermuda is just not a good surface. I know people associate brown with firm and fast but most of the winter when our bermuda goes dormant it is slow and wet, divots do not grow back, it is very muddy, and basically just plays poorly; when it first goes dormant it is not that bad but after a month it gets the way I mentioned above. I could see a dormant bermuda playing much better in North Florida.
If money was no object I would always prefer courses to be overseeded. Rye grass is a great surface and if maintained properly plays fast and firm.
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"Dormant Bermudagrass in the South is the closest playing condition to links turf. Yet while we continually profess to want to emulate Scottish or Irish links golf, we consistently overseed dormant Bermuda to achieve soft, green conditions for the winter golfers. It’s an expensive and grotesquely wasteful use of resources."
From my guest article in Golfweek: http://www.golfweek.com/news/2009/jul/06/guest-column-tim-liddy/
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Tim,
Probably is wasteful.
I play mostly in Tennessee on dormant bermuda in the winter.
It can be a littler firmer in Oct and Nov if weather is normal (typically a bit less rain than summer).
But, from Dec to March, due to winter and spring rains, it is not often fast and firm.
Elsewhere, I have played several over-seeded courses in South Carolina and they are typically fast and firm. Suppose it would be faster and firmer if not overseeded, but it plays quite fast even overseeded.
Enjoyed reading your article.
Where is 'most' of the over-seeded golf acreage in US ?
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I am not a super.
That article may be accurate but it is kind of a throw away line and does not quote anyone from the club. I
OK, here is another article from a guy I know who worked there... They have 419/celebration Bermuda tees & fariways...
http://www.sodsolutions.com/pdf/InsideAugustaNational.pdf
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That was a great article; I wonder if they keep it playable in the summer? Is the bermuda cut and maintained to fairway height? I would be interested to know.
Just to clarify I love fast and firm and wouldn't mind seeing a brown Augusta; but I find it to be pretty much a myth, at least here in Atlanta, that dormant bermuda creates F&F playing conditions. I am sure in other parts of the country it does.
My favorite time to play is right now (At least it would be if it didn't rain everyday here in the Atl); the grass is brownish green; it plays firm and fast but there is still live turf underneath your ball, the rough is playable but still a factor.
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Tim,
I'd like to offer my critique of your article.
"It’s one thing to feel the firm turf under foot; it’s quite another to experience a well-executed iron shot as the feeling travels from the fingertips through the hands and arms and directly into the soul."
A great line, Is that your own?
"On ecological grounds, links golf has much to teach us. In terms of sustainable maintenance at an affordable level that’s playable for all golfers, America, I am sorry to say, is lagging far behind."
Unfortunately, so are superintendents’ salaries. Some of us have to raise families, you know.
"Ironically, being “green” in golf is not the same as being “green” ecologically. In America, dormant Bermudagrass in the South is the closest playing condition to links turf. Yet while we continually profess to want to emulate Scottish or Irish links golf, we consistently overseed dormant Bermuda to achieve soft, green conditions for the winter golfers. It’s an expensive and grotesquely wasteful use of resources."
This is debatable. As mentioned by several posters above, dormant bermuda in wet winters will be anything but "linksy". Soils, climates, and turf species are completely different, defying a direct comparison.
"Which begs another question: "
In point of writing style, it doesn't. It may “raise” a question, or “pose” a question, but it doesn’t “beg” a question. To “beg a question” is a form of logical fallacy in which a statement or claim is assumed to be true without evidence other than the statement or claim itself. When one begs the question, the initial assumption of a statement is treated as already proven without any logic to show why the statement is true in the first place. For example, “They are in jail because they are bad people, and they are bad people because they are in jail.”
"The agronomics of links turf are pretty impressive: dry, lean and firm. The ecology demonstrates proper maintenance practices developed through many centuries. There is no Poa trivialis on a links course. (Poa being symptomatic of too much irrigation and fertilization.) Poa trivialis, an annual bluegrass, is prominent in overwatered courses in America. It invades when superintendents, fearful for their jobs, overwater to keep their courses “Augusta” green and their members living an egotistical and unsustainable dream. Such a defensive maintenance regime allows Poa to overtake the drought-tolerant bents originally planted. Once the Poa is established, the superintendent is stuck with overwatering to keep alive what essentially is a weed. ."
You are confusing Poa trivialis with Poa annua. You give a fairly accurate descripton of Poa annua. P. trivialis is a perennial. It is often used in winter overseeding mixes on bermudagrass in the U.S. and elsewhere. To say definitively there is no Poa of either species found on links courses is incorrect. There is less than in the U.S. but it is always there. The last itme I saw Royal County Down (in 2004) the greens were about 50% Poa annua.
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Steve,
I am sorry you did not like my article but of course I stand by everything I wrote. I would guess that the powers at Augusta will agree with you. By the way, are you still in France?
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Tim Liddy,
I think those damn Yankees are responsible for overseeding in the south-deep south.
I think they want to replicate what they see up north in the summer.
Most don't understand Bermuda playing conditions when the grass goes dormant.
Common Bermuda used to turn almost purplish causing Yankee green chairman up north to go appopletic when they saw those conditions at their southern courses.
Kenny,
When does ANGC transition in and out of their overseeded grassses.
Overseeding usually requires special treatment during the conversion process.
During that time, playing conditions usually suffer greatly for a few weeks.
When does that happen at ANGC ?
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Thanks Patrick.
It is a bit frustrating to me that everyone wants to write about the practicalities of dormant Bermuda, dam Yankees or my writing style. No one wants to discuss the philosophical aspect of the influence Augusta could have on the rest of the industry about our environment.
But let’s move on. I will get over it.
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You know Tim...I think you've got a great point.
As I've advertised a lot, I've been playing for only two years...so I am ignorant about a lot of golf related things.
But I can say, that even before I golfed I watched a lot of the Masters. And I would compare every golf course I would see to Augusta...as that is all I ever saw. In my mind, the greener the better...as that is what Augusta is...super GREEN and very flowery and beautiful.
Seeing some of the course that the Open was played on seemed out of place from time to time as the grass was somtimes brown. UGH!!! Right? At least to a know nothing.
So, I think you are right. If Augusta makes a move...most others should follow...as it will be the thing to do...as they appear to be a standard bearer for the golfing world (at least in the mind of the novice to moderately interested golfing world).
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Who else will be willing to pony up to bail Mr. Liddy out of jail in Georgia? I hear that AN has their own holding cell for such behavior and thought...and "no", it is NOT the Butler Cabin.
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Kenny,
"When does ANGC transition in and out of their overseeded grassses."
I have no idea; I was asking. I was always told (not by anyone in the know) that the course was not kept playable in the summer. I was wondering if they actually maintain it so that it could be played on bermuda during the summer.
"Overseeding usually requires special treatment during the conversion process.
During that time, playing conditions usually suffer greatly for a few weeks.
When does that happen at ANGC ?"
I know that overseeding can effect the way the golf course plays during prime months, in Atlanta that can mean May and June, that is why my private club will never do it again; but there is a public course that does it every year, an affordable one at that, and has little if any transition; in my opinion there is no comparison to playing on overseeded turf in the winter vs. dormant bermuda, at least in Atlanta. I would just think if this affordable public course can do it, and have great turf pretty much 11.5 months a year then it is worth it. I wonder what they do to make it so good. (The public course is Wolf Creek and the private is Atlanta Country Club). If ANGC can make a great dormant bermuda turf then I would be all for it but I just don't see that as a reality; dormant Zoysia is not bad at all and plays much more F&F in my limited expierence playing on it in the winter.
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IMO, the current overseeding practices have financially impacted the golf industry as much any other factor.
Those of you that are members of clubs that overseed, ask your super what the $avings would be over a three year period. Including but not limited to seed, labor, water, chemicals, fertilizers, equipment, electricity, pumps, irrigation, topdressing, and sod. In most cases, I would estimate 1/3 of the annual maintenance budget is attributed to overseeding.
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I am not a supt but I think:
At one time in the late 80's I think the fairways were still common bermuda..the supt had mentioned it allowed a better "fabric" for the overseed and I think they overseeded and may still with a drop spreade in about four directions....
When I was selling turf equipment I used to call on them all summer and we would go out on the course to see the different projects etc....it even had a few bare spots and there was a lot of common....
As Tim says that dormant bermuda down here is good unless you get it in low areas that hold water...since the plant is not absorbing the water it can be really soggy.....I know it is a much easier rought ahn when it is growing..... ;D
I would pony a few bucks to get him out of jail BUT he is onto something....change the greens to miniverde or champions or something....no overseed...bermuda is just popping that time of year....maybe even a brown sand from a local river.....it would be quite a statement for golf and for ANGC....proactive instead of reactive.....
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Kenny,
"When does ANGC transition in and out of their overseeded grassses."
I have no idea; I was asking. I was always told (not by anyone in the know) that the course was not kept playable in the summer. I was wondering if they actually maintain it so that it could be played on bermuda during the summer.
"Overseeding usually requires special treatment during the conversion process.
During that time, playing conditions usually suffer greatly for a few weeks.
When does that happen at ANGC ?"
I know that overseeding can effect the way the golf course plays during prime months, in Atlanta that can mean May and June, that is why my private club will never do it again; but there is a public course that does it every year, an affordable one at that, and has little if any transition; in my opinion there is no comparison to playing on overseeded turf in the winter vs. dormant bermuda, at least in Atlanta. I would just think if this affordable public course can do it, and have great turf pretty much 11.5 months a year then it is worth it. I wonder what they do to make it so good. (The public course is Wolf Creek and the private is Atlanta Country Club). If ANGC can make a great dormant bermuda turf then I would be all for it but I just don't see that as a reality; dormant Zoysia is not bad at all and plays much more F&F in my limited expierence playing on it in the winter.
From the day we opened Wolf Creek the owners were determined to overseed every winter....from my limited agronomic knowledge...one can allow over seed to burn out or they can spray it out....the supt at Wolf Creek choses to spray it out....
The new ultradwarf greens int e area are being painted instead of overseeded..and they look really good.....I think the issue is the mat is to thick for the overseed to bed...(did I say that right)
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What if Lebron James suited up for the Browns?
What if Obama invited George W. up to the White House for advice?
What if the Swiss invaded South Carolina?
What if Old Macdonald opened to poor reviews?
And last but not least....
What if Augusta played on dormant grass?
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Ben,
The big one..even more so than brown....
What if Billy Payne let Spurrier in? ;) ;)
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Tim Liddy,
More than ANGC, I think the blame, if that's the right word, rests on the shoulders of the production people at CBS.
Now, before I start, I want to say that I think they produce the finest telecast of a golf tournament.
But, the medium is a visual one.
The deep colors and contrasts are critical to the viewer's appeal.
The influence of TV on golf course maintainance can't be minimized, it's enormous.
If ANGC allowed the edges of the bunkers to "go natural" you can bet that hundreds, if not thousands of local clubs would do the same.
ANGC is looked up to, for better or worse, due to the TV cameras.
The second portion of the blame, and there's plenty to go around, belongs to clubs (green committees and boards) who see ANGC on TV and tell their superintendents to replicate what they've seen, not understanding the cost to do so and the fact that ANGC is primed and prepared, 51 weeks a year in order to showcase it ONE WEEK a year.
ANGC in October, November, December, January, and February doesn't look anything like it does on TV the first week in April, but, because most, if not all, of those committtee and board members have never seen ANGC in those months they don't have the appropriate frame of reference.
Tim, I hope that helps alleviate your frustration. ;D
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Ben,
The big one..even more so than brown....
What if Billy Payne let Spurrier in? ;) ;)
The guy that commissioned me into the Air Force is a Superior Court judge for the state of Georgia. He played on the UGA football team back in the mid-sixties. One of his teammates?
You guessed it Dude, Billy Payne.
From what I've heard, it is more likely that a Dawg would let a Gator into Augusta than a single blade of that grass being brown.
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Ben,
How do you explain Lou Holtz and Frank Broyles being a member ?
Arkansas, Minnesota, Notre Dame and South Carolina ?
Not exactly Bulldog loyalists ;D
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IMO, the current overseeding practices have financially impacted the golf industry as much any other factor.
Those of you that are members of clubs that overseed, ask your super what the $avings would be over a three year period. Including but not limited to seed, labor, water, chemicals, fertilizers, equipment, electricity, pumps, irrigation, topdressing, and sod. In most cases, I would estimate 1/3 of the annual maintenance budget is attributed to overseeding.
And, then you balance that cost out against the lost revenue of a club when all the play leaves your facility that doesn't overseed and goes to the remaining courses that do. ;D Of course, you have all the two or three GCA'ers in your town trying to play in those firm and fast conditions so pace of play has improved.
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Ben,
How do you explain Lou Holtz and Frank Broyles being a member ?
Arkansas, Minnesota, Notre Dame and South Carolina ?
Not exactly Bulldog loyalists ;D
Mr. Mucci,
There's is a clear delineation between colleges like The Trade School on North Avenue, Allbarn, and the South Carolina Cocks versus the absolute lowest of the low...the Gayturds from Gainsville.
But I get your point.
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Steve,
I think you have to differentiate between private and public clubs.
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Pat:
Agree.
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Ben,
How do you explain Lou Holtz and Frank Broyles being a member ?
Arkansas, Minnesota, Notre Dame and South Carolina ?
Not exactly Bulldog loyalists ;D
Pat,
Hootie would have let Spurrier in.....Broyles, Holtz etc were different chairmen that were not UGA guys........several local Georgia guys that went to school with BP have gotten in lately...but since he lived in Athens and played ball at UGA when Spurrier was at Florida and with the big hate thing the dawgs and gators have going on.....it will not happen with BP..(from what is heard around here)
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Steve,
And the club gets to keep all of those initiation deposits that are forfeited.
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Tim,
I did like your article. I agree with you in principle. My point is that you can't compare apples and oranges.
Another great difference between American and British Isles greenkeeping is tha amount of time spent on manicuring.
The Yanks are maniacal about trimming around trees and shrubs, sharp bunker edges, daily bunker raking, daily walk-mowing greens (sometimes multiple passes), landscaping, and so forth. All these year round, labor intensive tasks might be a more significant difference than the overseeding costs.
Yes, I'm still in France.
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Augusta National is not overseeded; that is why it is closed in the summer; there is no bermuda underneath it. It is only rye grass.
Incorrect, ANGC has Bermuda grass tees & fairways. Even during masters week if you look closely you can see the Bermuda coming through in the high traffic areas. I've driven the golf course with Marsh Benson in July when the whole place is Bermuda except for the greens obviously.
This article talks of the fall overseeding:
http://www.augusta.com/masters/masters/natural_beauty.shtml
If Augusta has bermuda fairways, and bermuda goes a bit yellow/brown in winter when its dormant, then doesnt that mean Augusta is a bit brown in the winter?
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If Augusta has bermuda fairways, and bermuda goes a bit yellow/brown in winter when its dormant, then doesnt that mean Augusta is a bit brown in the winter?
Ahhh.... No, because they overseed in the fall the course is green all winter. ???
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Thanks Patrick.
It is a bit frustrating to me that everyone wants to write about the practicalities of dormant Bermuda, dam Yankees or my writing style. No one wants to discuss the philosophical aspect of the influence Augusta could have on the rest of the industry about our environment.
But let’s move on. I will get over it.
Augusta was established as a retreat course in a warmer resort climate than the northeast, where many of the members were from.
Once the ability to play on live, green grass was demonstrated via overseeding, why wouldn't its' members want to escape the cold north to play on colorful, nondormant green grass that can play equally firm as fast as dormant once established.
If you think nonoverseeded dormant bermuda built on clay plays linkslike in January/February....you've probably never played links golf or winter golf in Georgia.
Not 50 yards from #12 green is #9 fairway at Augusta CC where balls are plugging or at best coming up muddy December-March.
As far as Augusta setting an example for the golf world, their ticket, concession, and souveneir prices are the lowest of any major sporting event (by a mile), and I don't see that influencing anyone else's behavior in the business.
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As far as Augusta setting an example for the golf world, their ticket, concession, and souveneir prices are the lowest of any major sporting event (by a mile), and I don't see that influencing anyone else's behavior in the business.
Jeff,
That's because NO ONE sees that on TV.
The ONLY people who are aware of that are those in attendance, which is a rather minute sector of the golf world when compared to the number of TV viewers.
P.S. Ben Sims, That was very funny.
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Ben,
How do you explain Lou Holtz and Frank Broyles being a member ?
Arkansas, Minnesota, Notre Dame and South Carolina ?
Not exactly Bulldog loyalists ;D
Jack Stephens