Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Jud_T on September 30, 2009, 03:55:07 PM
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I was going through my personal course rankings and looking at discrepencies between my rankings and golfweek, golf magazine and golf digest. Of courses that I've played here are what I feel are the most overrated and underrated courses in the current magazine rankings. Feel free to comment or to post your own personal discrepencies, thoughts. Only prerequisite is that you've played the courses in question:
Most Overrated Courses:
1. Rich Harvest Farms
2. Pebble Beach
3. Medinah #3
4. Butler National
5. European Club
6. Turnberry
7. Whistling Straights (Straights)
8. Bandon Trails
Most Underrated Courses:
1. Kingsley Club
2. Lawsonia Links
3. Black Sheep
4. Lost Dunes
5. Shoreacres
6. Prestwick
7. Yale
8. The Dunes Club
9. Skokie
10. Fenway
11. Pine Needles
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Let me guess...you're from Chicago ;). Totally agree with Black Sheep and Lost Dunes as being underrated as well as The Kingsley Club (in my personal top 30). Rich Harvest is ranked too high as well and Pebble is #19 for me so I would say it is overrated as well. I do love Turnberry though.
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Underrated - both the King's and Queen's courses at Gleneagles.
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Underrated:
Rolling Green (PA)
Twisted Dune (NJ)
Waverly (OR)
Overrated:
Ballyowen (NJ)
Bell Bay (Nova Scotia)
Hartefeld (PA)
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Jim, I probably should have an asterick by Turnberry. The day we played there were 60 mph wind gusts and rain coming sideways. Probably need to give it one more spin on a nice day...I'll definitely be back in the area at some point as Prestwick is one of my favorites and I foolishly sat out Western Gailes last time around (36 seemed a bit much after getting off the redeye) and Troon didn't work schedulewise...
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Jud,
I'm with you all the way with the glaring exceptions of Pebble Beach and Bandon Trails.
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How about we just go through the ranking from Golf World, chances are this crowd will find those overrated.
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Sam, that's not even worth discussing. See previous threads...
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David,
I think Pebble has 6 or 7 of the most scenic holes on the planet, but the rest of the course doesn't stand up to it's lofty ranking. You need 18 solid strategic holes to be ranked that highly, not a couple of great holes and a lot of pretty views. As for the Trails, I think #14 makes no sense on a resort course that most guests play only once or twice. Maybe on a private course that members play dozens of times it would be a fun hole. I think the best reason to play the Trails is to have an afternoon round off the water during the windy season, and in short order Old Mac will likely be a MUCH better option.
How about some other folks personal list over and under rated vs. the mags?
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Fenway and Rolling Green are underrated? They're both awfully good and most everybody acknowledges that, do they not?
Unless somebody thinks either/both are Top 20 material, I thought the proper respect was already out there.
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Pebble was only over-rated when it was number 1. It is definitly still top 10 IMO.
Passatiempo should be around Top 20 inthe US IMO. Is massively underated on all lists, especially those where it fails to reach top 100.
Barnbougle Dunes underated too if people reckon it only slips into the world's top 50 courses.
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Overrated: Long Cove, Berkeley Hall, Portmarnock.
Underrated: RTJ, The Island (Ireland).
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Yes, indeed - Pasatiempo is most definitely underrated.
How about Monterey Peninsula CC as underrated? It gets good reviews on GCA (not just by Bob Huntley) but never seems to be high on any magazine's list. I've never played either course, so this is just a guess.
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Carl,
Disagree on Portmarnock. And the island is a solid track, but not sure it's top 100 material...
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Overrated:
Torrey (South)
Harding Park
Castle Pines
Underrated:
Pasa (most underrated course I've ever played...I miss it like I miss my mom's Fried Chicken)
Ballyneal (seriously)
Kingsley
Bandon Trails
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after looking at what Sharp Park has to offer the public,environment and GCAers I'd put that in the underrated category
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Overrated - Bandon Dunes
Underrated - Bandon Trails
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Portmarnock Golf Club is not overrated
Portmarnock Links is underrated
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Ben, great call on Torrey. Can't believe I missed it....Looks like I ran into a brick wall on Trails....
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Most underrated: Augusta National Golf Club
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I would disagree that Pebble Beach is overrated. While the new fairway bunkering at the 3rd and 14th are lamentable the golf course is a solid 9+ in my opinion.
While I am a huge fan of Lawsonia, I do not find it underrated at all. In the same neighborhood for example, I think Raynor's Blue Mound, thanks to some fabulous work by the Doak firm, is its equal.
+1 to Bob Riggs comments about Bandon Trails and Bandon Dunes.
Mike
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I suppose it depends on what rankings/ratings you're talking about: Portmarnock Golf Club is a really good course, but it's not #1 in Ireland, as one publication recently ranked it.
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That I have played, I think:
Overrated:
St Enodoc
TOC (still a wonderful experience, but as a golf course alone I think it's not as good as Royal St George's, but better than anything else I have played)
Underrated:
New Zealand
North Berwick (West)
Trevose
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Most overrated: threads like this. Lists of courses with no accountability to give reasons for why a course either exceeded or failed to live up to your expectations.
Sorry for raining on the parade.
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Jud,
Why do you think Bandon Trails and Pebble are overrated?
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I was going through my personal course rankings and looking at discrepencies between my rankings and golfweek, golf magazine and golf digest. Of courses that I've played here are what I feel are the most overrated and underrated courses in the current magazine rankings. Feel free to comment or to post your own personal discrepencies, thoughts. Only prerequisite is that you've played the courses in question:
Most Overrated Courses:
1. Rich Harvest Farms
2. Pebble Beach
3. Medinah #3
4. Butler National
5. European Club
6. Turnberry
7. Whistling Straights (Straights)
8. Bandon Trails
Most Underrated Courses:
1. Kingsley Club
2. Lawsonia Links
3. Black Sheep
4. Lost Dunes
5. Shoreacres
6. Prestwick
7. Yale
8. The Dunes Club
9. Skokie
10. Fenway
11. Pine Needles
I've seen people put Rich Harvest Farms, Medinah #3 and Butler National on the same list, but this is even more ridiculous than the people who think Rich Harvest belongs in the Top 500.
Medinah may not be everybody's cup of tea. The par 3's are repetitive. The course is relentlessly tough. It has 1000 too many trees, but it is a very very good golf course. Butler National is a terrific course. It's not minimalist architecture, that's for sure. In some ways I suppose it's maximalist. It is built to test the very best players in the game. Some (including me) would put it in the top 50 in the country and I suppose others might not. If you don't think it's top 50 material, that's one thing. If you think it sucks and is comparable to Rich Harvest (which is close to terrible in its current state), then I think your judgment is not just overrated, it's well beyond suspect.
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Most overrated: threads like this. Lists of courses with no accountability to give reasons for why a course either exceeded or failed to live up to your expectations.
Sorry for raining on the parade.
Ditto
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mike, see above
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Overrated:
Torrey (South)
Harding Park
Castle Pines
Underrated:
Pasa (most underrated course I've ever played...I miss it like I miss my mom's Fried Chicken)
Ballyneal (seriously)
Kingsley
Bandon Trails
Ben,
What are your issues with Castle Pines being overrated?
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Terry,
I agree that Rich Harvest is MUCH worse than either Medinah or Butler. Hence the number one slot on my list. Medinah and Butler are great tests for the best players in the world, no doubt. In my humble opinion, however, designing a very difficult albeit fair test for big hitting low single digit players is much less challenging than building a course that is fun and challenging for all. Medinah on both occasions I played it was not only diffficult, but crowded and in poor condition for a private course. Butler, while in great condition also strikes me as an odd club. While no reflection on the course, what is the point of having a men's club that takes itself so seriously? Honestly, I much prefer the atmosphere at Bob'o'link or Black Sheep. I guess you could argue that a really tough track for a select subset of players is just as justifiable as a really quirky strategic course that focuses on the ground game and great green complexes is also for another select subset of players (GCA'ers). The difference is that most golfers can never enjoy the former, while most could learn to enjoy the latter....
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Carl:
I agree that Portmarnock is not no. 1 in Ireland but I have seen it bashed on this site on a number of occasions and am always surprised.
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Terry,
I agree that Rich Harvest is MUCH worse than either Medinah or Butler. Hence the number one slot on my list. Medinah and Butler are great tests for the best players in the world, no doubt. In my humble opinion, however, designing a very difficult albeit fair test for big hitting low single digit players is much less challenging than building a course that is fun and challenging for all. Medinah on both occasions I played it was not only diffficult, but crowded and in poor condition for a private course. Butler, while in great condition also strikes me as an odd club. While no reflection on the course, what is the point of having a men's club that takes itself so seriously? Honestly, I much prefer the atmosphere at Bob'o'link or Black Sheep. I guess you could argue that a really tough track for a select subset of players is just as justifiable as a really quirky strategic course that focuses on the ground game and great green complexes is also for another select subset of players (GCA'ers). The difference is that most golfers can never enjoy the former, while most could learn to enjoy the latter....
I'm not interested in changing anybody's particular "take" on a golf course; that's a decidedly personal call, but I fail to understand your criticism of Butler. Who gives a shit if the atmosphere is better at Black Sheep or Bob O'Link? I thought we were trying to discuss the relatively ineffable concept of whether a given golf course is overrated by the people who rate them. Heck, I like the atmosphere at Bob O'Link better than Butler, but Bob O'Link is not in the same league when discussing the architectural merits/demerits of the golf course.
A steady diet of Butler would not be great for me, because the angle of attack into every, single green (with the possible exception of #3 and #17 is just too demanding for my golf game. But the course was designed to attract great players from all across the country and the pro tour. The men-only stuff got in the way for the tour, but the golf course is still there waiting to be challenged by the players whose games fit the course.
As for Rich Harvest, the owner apparently wanted to design a golf course that would be balls-to-the-walls hard without much concern about the design integrity of any individual hole and surely without any thought as to the routing. He only succeeded in making a goofy golf course with ridiculous features like trees in the middle of the fairway on long par 4 holes, plastic swans in ponds, inconsistent bunker styles and a routing that requires a golf cart.
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I haven't played any of the private greats, so my list is limited:
Overrated:
Torrey Pines
Doral Blue
Underrated:
Maderas, San Diego
Green Monkey, Barbados
Famous but terrible:
The Belfry (Brabazon)
Trump National LA
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Overrated: Wentworth West, the Old Course
Underrated: Hankley Common; Kings Lynn, Blackmoor, Camberley Heath (perhaps)
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Yes, indeed - Pasatiempo is most definitely underrated.
How about Monterey Peninsula CC as underrated? It gets good reviews on GCA (not just by Bob Huntley) but never seems to be high on any magazine's list. I've never played either course, so this is just a guess.
Chip,
In retrospect there is quite a bit wrong with the Shore Course(Strantz) Course at MPCC. Now that the powers that be have succumbed to the siren call of hosting the A.T.& T. National Pro-Am, there is much ado about making changes to accomodate the PGA and the crowd control problems that are inherent in the flow of the course. It would appear that the 1st and 16th holes will be reduced to par 4s. The confluence of the 4th green, the fifth and seventeenth tees is causing some concern and some hastily built tees and paths are being introduced. We must wait for things to be finished and we will see if the hard work will pay off.
Bob
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Yes, indeed - Pasatiempo is most definitely underrated.
How about Monterey Peninsula CC as underrated? It gets good reviews on GCA (not just by Bob Huntley) but never seems to be high on any magazine's list. I've never played either course, so this is just a guess.
Chip,
In retrospect there is quite a bit wrong with the Shore Course(Strantz) Course at MPCC. Now that the powers that be have succumbed to the siren call of hosting the A.T.& T. National Pro-Am, there is much ado about making changes to accomodate the PGA and the crowd control problems that are inherent in the flow of the course. It would appear that the 1st and 16th holes will be reduced to par 4s. The confluence of the 4th green, the fifth and seventeenth tees is causing some concern and some hastily built tees and paths are being introduced. We must wait for things to be finished and we will see if the hard work will pay off.
Bob
Hi Bob,
Sounds like you are happy with these changes. I think.
Is that the case?
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Bob H.,
I recall you had some thoughts on #18 of the Shore Course and there have been discussions here in the past as to what could be done to that hole. Are changes contemplated? I think I recall that Gil Hanse is involved in the changes? Is that correct?
Regards and trust you are well!
Bob J
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Paul,
The old course overrated? You've got to be joking...I'm not sure it's possible to overrate the course....
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Most overrated: Atunyote at
Blarney Stone...err...Turning Stone Casino.
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Yes, indeed - Pasatiempo is most definitely underrated.
How about Monterey Peninsula CC as underrated? It gets good reviews on GCA (not just by Bob Huntley) but never seems to be high on any magazine's list. I've never played either course, so this is just a guess.
Chip,
In retrospect there is quite a bit wrong with the Shore Course(Strantz) Course at MPCC. Now that the powers that be have succumbed to the siren call of hosting the A.T.& T. National Pro-Am, there is much ado about making changes to accomodate the PGA and the crowd control problems that are inherent in the flow of the course. It would appear that the 1st and 16th holes will be reduced to par 4s. The confluence of the 4th green, the fifth and seventeenth tees is causing some concern and some hastily built tees and paths are being introduced. We must wait for things to be finished and we will see if the hard work will pay off.
Bob
Bob, since Stranz designed the course never knowing the course would be hosting the AT&T, would these changes still be taking place? When you say wrong, is this with the context of the tournament coming to the club?
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Just using http://www.top100golfcourses.co.uk/htmlsite/topcourses.asp?id=1 for the GB&I here are ins and outs imo.
OUT: Bearwood Lakes, Belfry, Gullane #1, Hillside, Nefyn, S&A & Tralee
IN: Beau Desert, Brora ,Cavendish, Huntercombe, Kington, Princes & Tenby
Just using http://www.top100golfcourses.co.uk/htmlsite/country.asp?Move=Previous&id=177 for the US here is the in and out imo.
OUT: Yeamans Hall
IN: Old Town
I would like a way to find a place for Tobacco Road, but I don't know of a course I would toss.
Ciao
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Overrated....
1. TPC Sawgrass - Stadium. Wasn't what I thought it would be.
2. Erin Hills. Course doesn't live up to a great piece of land.
3. Bay Harbor - Links/Quarry. Not enough lake views, home on course.
4. Kemper Lakes. How in the world did it ever get a PGA?
5. Pumpkin Ridge - Ghost Creek. A lot of ink for a good golf course, not great.
Underrated....
1. Greywalls - Suffers from middle of nowhere location, so much fun to play
2. Kingsley Club. As mentioned earlier by others, tons of fun, great design
3. Blackwolf Run - River. My all time fav parkland landout, Straits gets most of the love
4. Bandon Dunes. Gets knocked around a bit here. Isn't Pac, but what is?
5. Ballyneal. Obviously loved here, but average Joe doesn't know it exists, stupid good golf, cult classic
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Overrated:
- Mer....no I am not ;)
- Maidstone (way too many holes are very banal, almost all the way to #8 is pretty bland)
- Sawgrass (I simply dislike sharp edges, Sawgrass is filled with them)
- Baltusrol (All par 3s are long and the same club, repetitive long par 4s, very much a trudge)
- Bandon Dunes (I obviously missed something, several world class holes, however several clunkers)
- Erin Hills (Minimalism taken way too serious, someone crank up the bulldozer and flatten some of those driving zones out)
- Pinehurst #2 (flat, uninspiring with greens that borderline goofy at today's green speeds)
Underrated:
- Pine Needles (beautiful property, fantastic routing, great par 3s and short par 4s, how this can't be better than #2 is beyond me)
- Cal Club (probably won't be underrated much longer, maybe the best in SF now, the new holes are great!)
- Ballyneal (the most fun golf course I have every played, period)
- Pasatiempo (the best golf deal on the planet, a Doak restored Mackenzie for less than $200 in beautiful NorCal, best bunkering in golf)
- Piping Rock (Wow, big, bold CB Macdonald, fantastic Redan, fantastic greens, hard but so much fun)
- Western Gailes (What a sleeper, so fun, not sure what everyone misses)
- Prestwick (So so fun)
- Blue Mound (Fantastic Seth Raynor sleeper with an awesome Punchbowl and subtle, but amazingly set of greens)
- Pine Barrens (Great routing, great bunkers, no forced eye candy, one of the best short par 4s in golf)
Way Underrated:
- Tobacco Road (The best risk/reward course on the planet, such a visually stimulating and intimidating course...yet playable on an cool piece of land)
- Bandon Trails (Great routing, great use of natural land features, awesome centerline bunkers, two drivable par 4s, best par 3 on property, subtle and elegant)
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Chip,
great list. I agree wholeheartedly on Pine Needles. But not on Pinehurst #2. The most interesting greens complexes period.
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Chip: I agree with your comments on Bandon Trails, I played it for the first time in march and I am still trying to get my mind around many of those holes they are so restrained yet great, and the routing moves you across the property so efficiently. The should flip flop Trails and Dunes position on any of the lists I've seen.
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Chip:
Do you really think Bandon Trails is way underrated at 55 in the U.S. (Golf Mag) or 80 in the U.S. (Golf Digest)? That's pretty heady company.
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Overrated: Wentworth West, the Old Course
Underrated: Hankley Common; Kings Lynn, Blackmoor, Camberley Heath (perhaps)
We've spoken about this before Paul and I still think that you're wrong about the West Course!!! ;) It is (or was pre 2009...) a brilliant, strategic and challenging course but some people just can't look past all the "baggage" that comes with the West - namely the Pro tournament status/The European Tour being based there/The Clubhouse/The overly corporate feel/The cost to play etc
Looked as a Colt course by itself it is a fine examination of your game IMO. However as a pure golf experience it is not in the same class as Sunningdale Old/New though.
My initial picks however;
Over-rated
* The Old Course (take away the trappings of the history and see what is left - IMHO)
* Goodwood
* The London Club
* The Addington
* Old Head
Under-rated
* Humber Valley
* Pinnacle Point
* Hankley Common
* Woking
* Saunton East
* Queenwood
p.s. you were joking about Camberley Heath I hope?! It was a lovely Colt course but it has been utterly ruined over the last 10-15 years by successive owners :-[
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Chip:
Do you really think Bandon Trails is way underrated at 55 in the U.S. (Golf Mag) or 80 in the U.S. (Golf Digest)? That's pretty heady company.
Carl-
If there are 55 or 80 better courses in the U.S. I have a lot of golf courses I need to see. I suppose the question could be, how high would Trails be rated if the other two courses didn't exist and there was just the C&C course on that piece of property.
The constraint on #3, yet the strategy on each shot.
The use of the ridgeline on #4 that most GCAs would have flattened.
The simplicity of the green on #9
The green on #13 that looks completely natural yet had tons of fill to build up.
The cross bunker on #15 and the green that sits back in the hollow that looks right off of Royal Melbourne.
One of the best par 3s on the planet at #17.
Yes, it is in my top 20 in the world.
Chip
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A super clear one to me
Over - Portmarnock
Under - Waterville
they should be flip flopped.
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No love for Portmarnock, what an usentimental bunch...OK, maybe it's more of a gem than one of the best courses on the planet. But still can't think of many places I'd rather play...
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Jud - still can't think of many more places you'd rather play than Portmarnock???? Seriously?????
Wow.
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Paul,
The old course overrated? You've got to be joking...I'm not sure it's possible to overrate the course....
Jud - only played it once but I don't think how ever much I played it that I would rate it in the top 5 or 10 in the world. It was a great experience and I would love to play again but I feel that history is too intertwined with this course to rationally rank it at the top of the game and better than something like Dornoch or Castle Stuart - haven't played either but I know for sure that I would rank both significantly above the Old Course. I think ranking some top courses over others in a list of 1-xx is stupid. I think a better option is a score out of 10 (Doak) or 20 (peaugot).
Gareth - still don't see the West as top 20 or 30 in UK - top 100 yes - i.e. I think it is overrated with a poor finish from 14. Camberley Heath - not sure, some of it, IMHO is nicer than Wentworth West - first 12 holes or so very nice (mostly!). Not a strong opinion but I don't see a huge gap between this course and Wentworth West - although I would prefer Wentworth East or Edinburgh to either.
Again, very subjectively I know, but I prefer Bearwood to Wentworth and believe that it deserves a top 100 spot - and I can only see it getting better as they make further tweaks over the years
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Paul- i agree that the Doak scale is much better than 1-100...i'd give Portmarnock a 7.5 with a bullet. so maybe it is a tad overrated
Shane- yes there are places i'd rather play, just not all that many.
alot of discussion about Wentworth west. How about the east course? While clearly not a top 100 candidate on anyones list I think it is unfairly overshadowed by the west course and may infact be an underrated candidate...
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Jim & Chip,
Erin Hills overrated? Where is it even rated? It's a monster, indeed. It's brand new - to not see the potential and call it overrated...tough.
My guess (based on the bulldozer comment) is that it chewed you up and spit you out. Overall, I find the better the player, the more they like the course.
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Mike,
I like Erin Hills....definitely more than Chip. But isn't even close to the hardest course he has played. Erin Hills isn't overly difficult, but has the options to make it REALLY difficult which is one reason it has gotten the close looks it has on USGA events (US AM, OPEN, etc.).
There are several areas on the course that are goofy because they decided not to move any dirt. And they weren't goofy in a Lahinch or Cruden Bay type of way. They were just really goofy. The green at 2 and 10 are perfect examples.
But I never thought, wow, this is just a monster of a course. Granted, if you lose your driver swing temporarily, it is going to be a long day.
But I don't think Chip's playing ability had anything to do with his opinion.
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Shane,
I wasn't knocking anyone's playing ability - it's just an observation from seeing hundreds of players.
The 2nd green has been enlargened 40% - it's an awesome hole. 10 is not the best, but IMO, it's not the green - it's the 2nd shot landing area. The green just requires a good shot to either the front or the back. If it's in the bowl, you should just feel lucky and hit it close - that pin doesn't require much distance skill - only line.
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Noted.
And yes, I like the course as a whole.
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I know not many have been to see it yet..
But based on its lack of publicity and how good it is, I'm going to put Wine Valley in the under-rated category...it really is worth the effort to see.
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you were joking about Camberley Heath I hope?! It was a lovely Colt course but it has been utterly ruined over the last 10-15 years :-[
I think you'd find plenty on here who'd suggest that line applies just as fittingly to Wentworth West...
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you were joking about Camberley Heath I hope?! It was a lovely Colt course but it has been utterly ruined over the last 10-15 years :-[
I think you'd find plenty on here who'd suggest that line applies just as fittingly to Wentworth West...
pre 2009, no I can't agree and would defend the West.
post 2009/2010, the jury is out....
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mike and shane,
I loved the old 2nd green at Erin Hills. The fact that they felt the need to enlarge it to cowtow and try to get an open is very discouraging. I haven't played the course since the renovations, but based on things like this I'm not optimistic.
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JUD - to each his own. You love P and I can think of 100 courses off the top of my head that I would rather play.
Agree to disagree.
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Mike -
In regards to Erin Hills:
I believe Shane said it perfectly when he called several of the holes "goofy". For me, I felt some of the landing areas were way too narrow, especially when the landing area was blind from the tee. There were too many blind elements on the golf course, especially within the first 6 holes or so, where you have a blind element on just about every hole.
I do agree that Erin Hills has tremendous potential.
I call it overrated becasue, living here in the Midwest, we were pumped full of hype, told how great Erin Hills was from a variety of local print services, how it was good enough to hold a U.S. Open. I just feel the way the course was promoted did not match the reality of what the course actually is.
To address the "The better player appreciates Erin Hills" argument, I played the course with 2 other buddies. All three of us are single digit handicaps. We all were greatly disappointed in Erin Hills.
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Sean and Bob,
Too soon to tell about the changes. Strantz's original siting of the 5th and 17th tee was, in my opinion, awkward indeed.
The 18th hole and especially its green, is quite possible one of his weakest creations. It will be changed after the 2010 A.T. & T. Pro-Am.
Bob
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Sean and Bob,
Too soon to tell about the changes. Strantz's original siting of the 5th and 17th tee was, in my opinion, awkward indeed.
The 18th hole and especially its green, is quite possible one of his weakest creations. It will be changed after the 2010 A.T. & T. Pro-Am.
Bob
Bob,
Very interesting. Do you have any details you can share with how the 18th will be changed? :)
Thanks,
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Kalen,
I haven't a clue. No matter what they do, it would have to be an improvement.
Bob
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Underrated:
Torrey South-especially on this site
Olympic Club-Lake
Riviera
Stone Eagle
Overrated:
Pinehurst #2
Barona Creek
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Jud,
The 2nd green is much better now IMO. It's still very tough. Too bad this is discouraging to you...you're missing out on a great, versatile golf course.
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Jim,
What holes do you find goofy for driving the ball?
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Mike-
Erin Hills is a fine course...it is just IN MY OPINION (one guy) takes the minimalist movement to the far end of the spectrum. There are several holes that just need flatter driving zones. Look, like I love places like Prestwick and Lahinch and Tobacco Road where there are blind/semi blind tee shots, however on the other side of the blindness you find a flat forgiving driving zone. I found at Erin Hills there were numerous situations where you hit and hope and when you got the other side you found even more blindness and unevenness for, in my opinion, no reason other than for the sake of "don't move any dirt". #2, #8 in a big way, #10 in the biggest way, and others....seriously, I am not looking to pick it apart but I do want to support my position to some extent. It is a fine course, I just can't say it is as good as the major hype I have seen from it. We all played pretty well, several eagles (#10, #14) and birdies, we all just thought it was very goofy in spots. An amazing piece of property, a great clubhouse/cabin/food, a good routing, fantastic staff, but holes that simply need to be softened, a lot.
Respectfully,
Chip
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Mike,
I am guessing with all of your time there that you are going to have a different perspective than those people who have only played it once or twice. Seems like a course where it takes a number of rounds to fully appreciate many of the nuances.
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Tim,
again with Pinehurst #2?. and Barona? as far as I know it's only rated in best casino courses in golfweek, which I believe is appropriate. And it's the only good track I've found yet in metro San Diego...
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Chip,
If I'm coming off defensive, I don't mean to be. Sean's statement is correct - spending so much time there gives me a different perspective - and it is definitely one of those courses that can play SOOOO differently day to day.
I love hearing what people like and don't like about it. The blindness part is funny to me, as when I play well there (blue tees), I consider it a good round to have no blind shots. #2 is becoming my favorite driving hole ever - so much reward or a properly placed tee shot. #10 is definitely not my favorite....it will be improved.
Anyway, the feedback is great...
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Mike -
To each his own, I say. I know there are people who like Erin Hills, and in no way does my opinion change any of that. I am not trying to do that in this thread. My first impression of Erin Hills wasn't favorable. That is all. I have exactly one round on the course, so by no means am I the athority on Erin Hills.
Again, I have to agree with Chip. My major issue was this; many holes are blind from the tee. Fine, I can deal with that. However, often I found the landing area was then very narrow, or very uneven with a lot of movement. I just think you've got to give the golfer something, at least some of the time.
What is the first hole you play that doesn't have some type of blind element to it? I could be wrong, but I believe the first 6 or 7 holes have some blindness to them. I remember having to wait a long time until there was actually a hole where I got to see everything in front of me.
The back to back par 3's also worried me. I don't mind them being back to back. The first one plays slightly uphill (blind) while the next, the replication of the Dell Hole, plays slightly downhill. I hit the exact same club (so did everyone else in my group) for both tee shots. I know the yardages of both holes vary, but the uphill and downhill had them playing the same distance the day we were there.
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Jim,
Dell hole is gone. It's now a par 5 and the "bye" hole is in play as #9.
I agree - to each his own. I totally respect someone not enjoying some blindness on a golf course. Some people just don't like it. I happen to think it works beautifully on a bunch of holes out there because you can get around with no blind approach shots....that's the reward.
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Mike -
Didn't know that about "The Dell" hole. I know there are some major changes being made out there.
Are you at Erin Hills? Do you know Jim Colton? He was talking about making a return trip to EH this fall and hooking up with a Mike (I think) he knows up that way. He was trying to get me to return. Perhaps not.
It is nice to trade posts on a topic viewed from opposite sides, without anyone going crazy and acting as if the end of the world is just around the corner.
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Most Overrated Courses:
1. Rich Harvest Farms
2. Pebble Beach
3. Medinah #3
4. Butler National
5. European Club
6. Turnberry
7. Whistling Straights (Straights)
8. Bandon Trails
Most Underrated Courses:
1. Kingsley Club
2. Lawsonia Links
3. Black Sheep
4. Lost Dunes
5. [b[Shoreacres[/b]
6. Prestwick
7. Yale
8. The Dunes Club
9. Skokie
10. Fenway
11. Pine Needles
My favorite thing to do when I see Illinois residents posts lists like this is to go to the peer review....and 99/100 times, my suspicion is validated.
Not all courses have to be playable for all skill levels.
There are big golf courses that require big games and little golf courses that require little games. I happen to prefer the former over the latter as it better suits my eye and my game....and in fact, I end up enjoying the course and the round that much more. What is the fly in the ointment in many "reviews" on this site is that everyone in their subjective rankings expects a course to be elastic to their shortcomings as golfers.
Well, in my opinion, that's just not fair and not true. Golf courses are built to be a lot of different things to a lot of different people....just because one totally lacks the skill to play many of the courses listed on the top, doesn't make the design any less effective for the purpose of the course. Further, it certainly does not make the course overrated. One must always think and remember, as Terry Lavin so eloquently referenced above, what's the intent of the design? Many of these criticisms are akin to me saying that I think Great Expectations is a shitty novel because it didn't make me laugh. I can tell you, Whistling Straits, Butler and Medinah certainly weren't designed to provide a leisurely round of golf for the 20+ handicapper. In fact, I would suggest that those who can't break 100 regularly, shouldn't even be on those golf courses unless spectating.
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Ryan,
Thanks for your help. I never knew that some courses are harder and more demanding than others!! Whistling straights is in fact very playable depending on what tees you play from, wind conditions etc...Besides the fact that the course is completely artificial, you can't seriously tell us that #5 and #18 are great designs. As for Butler and Medinah, I'd say that unless you are breaking 80 on a regular basis and fairly long and straight off the tee, you have no business out their either. Why don't we just design a course thats 9,000 yards long from the whites with a 180 slope that only Tiger can enjoy? I'm sure that'd really get your macho up....
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ok, Ryan, maybe you are breaking 80 on a regular basis! my apologies, but a couple of points...1) Yale is on my underrated list, not exactly a pushover. 2) While my game is certainly no match for either Butler or Medinah, I think there are a few design concepts that are lacking in both. Namely, while there's nothing inherently wrong with a championship layout for the best players, there should be some ebb and flow to the course, not simply one punishingly long demanding hole after another. How about a couple of short par 4's or reachable par 5's? This not only gives the average player a fighting chance, but tempts the really good player to make a too-aggressive play. A course should force you to produce with every club in your bag, not just driver and long iron on every hole. Secondly, these courses, Medinah in particular, suffer from what many illinois courses do, namely one long narrow tree lined fairway after another. Yes it's important to be able to produce a long straight drive, but if that's the only option on every hole, it becomes a bit tedious and unimaginative after a while. 3) I shouldn't have expected anything less from an illinois alum....
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Jim,
I've been trying to get Colton up here....what are you guys doing Wednesday? Let's go!
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Jud,
If you think Pebble Beach is overrated due to the views, you weren't paying much attention to the golf course.
It's a great, great, great GOLF course, despite what Tom Huckaby thinks of the views. ;D
What would help in analyzing the evaluations presented by each poster is the poster's handicap, tees played, condition of the course, number of times played and score.
Pinehurst # 2 overrated ? ? ?
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Is Pebble expensive to play? Absolutely. Does it have a few "pedestrian" holes? Perhaps. Elvins nailed it. #1? No. Top 10? Perhaps. Pebble is a great course.
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Overrated:
- Mer....no I am not ;)
- Maidstone (way too many holes are very banal, almost all the way to #8 is pretty bland)
- Sawgrass (I simply dislike sharp edges, Sawgrass is filled with them)
- Baltusrol (All par 3s are long and the same club, repetitive long par 4s, very much a trudge)
- Bandon Dunes (I obviously missed something, several world class holes, however several clunkers)
- Erin Hills (Minimalism taken way too serious, someone crank up the bulldozer and flatten some of those driving zones out)
- Pinehurst #2 (flat, uninspiring with greens that borderline goofy at today's green speeds)
Underrated:
- Pine Needles (beautiful property, fantastic routing, great par 3s and short par 4s, how this can't be better than #2 is beyond me)
- Cal Club (probably won't be underrated much longer, maybe the best in SF now, the new holes are great!)
- Ballyneal (the most fun golf course I have every played, period)
- Pasatiempo (the best golf deal on the planet, a Doak restored Mackenzie for less than $200 in beautiful NorCal, best bunkering in golf)
- Piping Rock (Wow, big, bold CB Macdonald, fantastic Redan, fantastic greens, hard but so much fun)
- Western Gailes (What a sleeper, so fun, not sure what everyone misses)
- Prestwick (So so fun)
- Blue Mound (Fantastic Seth Raynor sleeper with an awesome Punchbowl and subtle, but amazingly set of greens)
- Pine Barrens (Great routing, great bunkers, no forced eye candy, one of the best short par 4s in golf)
Way Underrated:
- Tobacco Road (The best risk/reward course on the planet, such a visually stimulating and intimidating course...yet playable on an cool piece of land)
- Bandon Trails (Great routing, great use of natural land features, awesome centerline bunkers, two drivable par 4s, best par 3 on property, subtle and elegant)
I agree that #2 is overrated given its current maintenance meld. But when the fairway widths are right and it is playing firm and fast it is a tremendous strategic golf course.
I also agree that Pine Needles is underrated. I absolutely love that golf course. Although I think 15 and 17 are rather weak holes.
I also agree that Bandon Trails is way underrated. I thought it was vastly better than Bandon Dunes. Trails made great use of the property with lots of interesting features, including several centerline bunkers and/or ridges. And, I loved playing the 14th hole. What did you think was the best par 3 on the property? I think the par 3s are superb. In order of the holes I hit 3 iron, PW, 5 wood and 7 iron and all of them played very different. I thought Trails had far better green complexes (more sophisticated) than Bandon Dunes.
To add to others' comments - Torrey Pines is way overrated.
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Mike -
Yeah, Colton has been talking about a return engagement since the late summer. Unfortunately, I cannot make Wednesday. I am a teacher, so middle of the week ventures are tough to come by. Plus, I coach hoops, and Wednesday is practice #1 after tryouts on Monday and Tuesday.
After his recent trip to Ballyneal, I think JC is done w/ golf for the year.
Maybe we can do it next summer. It would be a good day trip, easy drive from Chicago.
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I've just read through this thread and it seems everyone has finally reached agreement! My suggestion is that the next person who complains about the Top 100 rankings should be directed to this thread ;)
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Jud: I confess to being a part of the "TOC overrated" crowd. Too many ordinary holes (even on a windy day) IMHO.
All: Is Pebble Beach the only Top 10 that's mentioned as overrated on this thread? Merion, PV, Shinnecock, CPC, Oakmont are all holding up beyond reproach (which is fine w/me). Does that mean that, of the Top 10, only Pebble has more than one hole that's considered to be underwhelming/ordinary?
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"The best courses in the world have great short par 4's"-Tom Doak....If you don't take this hacker's word for it maybe you'll listen to the master.....
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The one weekend I got to play Pine Valley it exceeded my expectations - which were pretty high. The one weekend I got to play Pebble it was pretty much what I thought.
Pat Mucci - I've played #2 over 200 times during the the last 20 years. I've played from the white, blue, and U.S. Open tees (about 5 times). My handicap has been as low as +4 in the last two years. The reduction in fairways widths has seriously hurt the strategic options on the course. Also, rarely is the course maintained in such a manner where I find putting up the slopes of the green a reasonable option. Rarely is the course maintained in such a manner that I can bounce the ball onto the greens. In my opinion part of being a great course is having the proper maintenance meld. And, unfortunately, #2 hasn't had it for quite a while. Hence, in my opinion it is overrated. Currently I would rather play Pine Needles.
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steve- good color on pinehurst are. not only is pine needles a great course, it's a hell of a lot less expensive than #2 if you're not a town member....wonder what you think about the Forest Creek courses and the state of the Dormie Club?
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"The best courses in the world have great short par 4's"-Tom Doak....If you don't take this hacker's word for it maybe you'll listen to the master.....
Where are the great short par 4's at Shinnecock, Winged Foot, Fenway, and ANGC ?
You don't consider the 4th at Pebble a great, short, par 4 ?
# 3 at Pinehurst # 2 ?
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The one weekend I got to play Pine Valley it exceeded my expectations - which were pretty high.
If it wasn't in good condition, which happens during the summer from time to time, would you declare that it's overrated ?
The one weekend I got to play Pebble it was pretty much what I thought.
So, you'd state that you were predisposed and merely reinforced your predisposition ?
Pat Mucci - I've played #2 over 200 times during the the last 20 years. I've played from the white, blue, and U.S. Open tees (about 5 times). My handicap has been as low as +4 in the last two years. The reduction in fairways widths has seriously hurt the strategic options on the course. Also, rarely is the course maintained in such a manner where I find putting up the slopes of the green a reasonable option. Rarely is the course maintained in such a manner that I can bounce the ball onto the greens. In my opinion part of being a great course is having the proper maintenance meld. And, unfortunately, #2 hasn't had it for quite a while. Hence, in my opinion it is overrated. Currently I would rather play Pine Needles.
Those are all maintainance issues, not architectural issues.
I've played PV when the greens stimped at about 6. Should PV be deemed overrated ?
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Patrick,
re-#2, if you read the whole thread you'll see that I defend it several times. Although conditioning has to be taken into consideration at some level if it's consistently poor, as Yale was for many years. As for Pebble, the 4th is a fine hole and the criticism there isn't that it doesn't have a good short par four but rather that it has a number of pedestrian holes, namely 1,2,11 &12, and some good but not great holes overshadowed by the view, namely #18. Winged Foot has wonderful greens complexes, and a fine short par 4 at #6. Fenway has a great short par four at #15.
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All: Is Pebble Beach the only Top 10 that's mentioned as overrated on this thread? Merion, PV, Shinnecock, CPC, Oakmont are all holding up beyond reproach (which is fine w/me). Does that mean that, of the Top 10, only Pebble has more than one hole that's considered to be underwhelming/ordinary?
Chip,
I would say Pebble alone has more "underwhelming/ordinary" holes than Merion, PV and Shinnecock combined...for what it's worth.
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Underrated:
Torrey South-especially on this site
Olympic Club-Lake
Riviera
Stone Eagle
Overrated:
Pinehurst #2
Barona Creek
I have to disagree on Torrey Pines here - it's tough and thats about all it is.
My local 9-hole muni asks more questions, it's really the least strategic course I've played. There is absolute no variety in the shots you have tio excecute. Hit the fairway, hit the green, and the greens are all multiply tiered. Is that variety?
The course might be suited for a US Open, but it is not a fun course for the average golfer to enjoy. one good thing might be the routing which brings the golfer close to the ocean at 3&4, 12&13 and 16&17.
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I know many of my fellow Australian GCAers will dissagree with me but I think RMW - especially in the last few years - has been overrated.
Put simply - it's conditioning has not been to the level of what one would expect for the supposed #1 course in the country.
I'm a big fan sure but when I hear regular comments such as "it's so far ahead of the rest" and it's "daylight second" - it's not. It will be interesting to see how Lost Farm is recieved when it opens 8)
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I know many of my fellow Australian GCAers will dissagree with me but I think RMW - especially in the last few years - has been overrated.
Put simply - it's conditioning has not been to the level of what one would expect for the supposed #1 course in the country.
I'm a big fan sure but when I hear regular comments such as "it's so far ahead of the rest" and it's "daylight second" - it's not. It will be interesting to see how Lost Farm is recieved when it opens 8)
How fitting that this post was Number 666 for you...
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steve- good color on pinehurst are. not only is pine needles a great course, it's a hell of a lot less expensive than #2 if you're not a town member....wonder what you think about the Forest Creek courses and the state of the Dormie Club?
I've never played Forest Creek but hope too soon. A member has offered to take me out the next time I'm down there. I wish the Dormie club were public so I could play it. From the pictures it could be the best course in Pinehurst when it opens.
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"The best courses in the world have great short par 4's"-Tom Doak....If you don't take this hacker's word for it maybe you'll listen to the master.....
Where are the great short par 4's at Shinnecock, Winged Foot, Fenway, and ANGC ?
You don't consider the 4th at Pebble a great, short, par 4 ?
# 3 at Pinehurst # 2 ?
#3 at #2 isn't so short anymore from the U.S. Open tees. It has to be close to 360-380 yards now. I really can't imagine anyone trying to drive that green and faring very well.
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The one weekend I got to play Pine Valley it exceeded my expectations - which were pretty high.
If it wasn't in good condition, which happens during the summer from time to time, would you declare that it's overrated ?
Not based on one weekend. I played it in the middle of the summer and the conditioning was excellent. The use of the land was clearly exceptional. The most amazing thing to me was how so many of the holes just appeared to be there forever.
The one weekend I got to play Pebble it was pretty much what I thought.
So, you'd state that you were predisposed and merely reinforced your predisposition ?
I had a predisposition at PV too. I knew PV had been rated #1 for a long and I was expecting a lot. One was way better than I thought and the other was what I thought. I really enjoyed playing PB (especially since I wasn't paying). The stretch of holes along the ocean are truly fantastic. I think those holes take away from the other holes which aren't as bad as many say. I just wasn't nearly as impressed. I think I need to play PB more to make an accurate judgement because in just two times around the non-ocean holes have been lost in my memory. Again that's not because of the non-ocean holes themselves but the ocean holes. Plus the whole trip was oveshafowed by shooting 2 under from the tips at Spyglass after my caddy informed our group that the other caddy bet me lunch that I wouldn't break 80 from back there.
Pat Mucci - I've played #2 over 200 times during the the last 20 years. I've played from the white, blue, and U.S. Open tees (about 5 times). My handicap has been as low as +4 in the last two years. The reduction in fairways widths has seriously hurt the strategic options on the course. Also, rarely is the course maintained in such a manner where I find putting up the slopes of the green a reasonable option. Rarely is the course maintained in such a manner that I can bounce the ball onto the greens. In my opinion part of being a great course is having the proper maintenance meld. And, unfortunately, #2 hasn't had it for quite a while. Hence, in my opinion it is overrated. Currently I would rather play Pine Needles.
Those are all maintainance issues, not architectural issues.
I've played PV when the greens stimped at about 6. Should PV be deemed overrated ?
I've read many times on this site where many of the things we consider architecture are really maintenance. The fact is #2 fairway's have been almost cut in half from what they once were. This takes away the strategic options of the course. So, does the mowing height around the greens. It's similar to Bethpage Black imo. I've never played there but what you read is that it had the structure of a great course but its glory wasn't fully revealed until the redo. #2's glory is being hidden because of a poor MM. My comments on #2 are not related to the speed of the greens or how well they putt or the quality of the sand in the bunkers. That's pure maintenance stuff imo. I'm talking about the loss of lines of play and the inability to play shots the course was designed for because of something that architect didn't do. For example on the second hole the fairway used to run up to the left fairway bunkers. Playing near those bunkers as possible was the only way to attack pins on the right half of the green because of a large mound on the right front of the green. Now the fairway stops 5 to 10 yards right of those "rough" bunkers. You can no longer get the proper angle and the bunkers look stupid now because they don't seem to have any reason for being. The fairway on the 18th used to go behind the large, deep fairway bunker providing an excellent angle into the left side pins. No if you a drive over that bunker you are at least 10 yards in the rough. This is more than a maintenance issue because it severely impacts Ross' strategic intent.
I admit I can't speak like this about many great courses because I have only played them one or two times. But, like I said I've played Pinehurst a lot of the course of time. Half of the rounds I played on it were before any Tour Championships or U.S. Opens were held. Those events are ruining the golf course for us non-Tour players.
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Underrated:
Torrey South-especially on this site
Olympic Club-Lake
Riviera
Stone Eagle
Overrated:
Pinehurst #2
Barona Creek
I have to disagree on Torrey Pines here - it's tough and thats about all it is.
My local 9-hole muni asks more questions, it's really the least strategic course I've played. There is absolute no variety in the shots you have tio excecute. Hit the fairway, hit the green, and the greens are all multiply tiered. Is that variety?
The course might be suited for a US Open, but it is not a fun course for the average golfer to enjoy. one good thing might be the routing which brings the golfer close to the ocean at 3&4, 12&13 and 16&17.
I was astonishingly underwhelmed by Torrey Pines (either course). I wouldn't pay money (even SD County rate) to play again.
Nice scenery, but apart from a few holes, boring boring boring.
And the pace of play was horrific, too.
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"The best courses in the world have great short par 4's"-Tom Doak....If you don't take this hacker's word for it maybe you'll listen to the master.....
Where are the great short par 4's at Shinnecock, Winged Foot, Fenway, and ANGC ?
You don't consider the 4th at Pebble a great, short, par 4 ?
# 3 at Pinehurst # 2 ?
I haven't played the other courses, but #6 at WFW is a pretty good short par 4.
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"The best courses in the world have great short par 4's"-Tom Doak....If you don't take this hacker's word for it maybe you'll listen to the master.....
Where are the great short par 4's at Shinnecock, Winged Foot, Fenway, and ANGC ?
You don't consider the 4th at Pebble a great, short, par 4 ?
# 3 at Pinehurst # 2 ?
#3 at ANGC is a great short Par 4.
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Underrated:
Rustic Canyon!!! - I haven't played many courses you would consider greats, but I can't get in my head how there could possibly be 228 (http://www.top100golfcourses.co.uk/htmlsite/searchresult.asp?step=1) better courses in the US. The course is everything I could ask for. Strategy in every shot, awesome and varied greens contouring, minimalistic, no weak hole, Variety everywhere, f&f, a great, great walk out in nature, aaaaaaah :).
Burnham & Berrow - currently ranked 34th in England but for me it is on par with Saunton E and St. Enodoc (both ranked in the top15). Great holes fom 1 to 18, consistent, highly strategic, good set of par 3s.
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Underrated:
Rustic Canyon!!! - I haven't played many courses you would consider greats, but I can't get in my head how there could possibly be 228 (http://www.top100golfcourses.co.uk/htmlsite/searchresult.asp?step=1) better courses in the US. The course is everything I could ask for. Strategy in every shot, awesome and varied greens contouring, minimalistic, no weak hole, Variety everywhere, f&f, a great, great walk out in nature, aaaaaaah :).
Burnham & Berrow - currently ranked 34th in England but for me it is on par with Saunton E and St. Enodoc (both ranked in the top15). Great holes fom 1 to 18, consistent, highly strategic, good set of par 3s.
Emil
I think there is absolutely nothing to choose between Saunton and Burnham. If there ever was a dead heat between two courses this is it. To me, St Enodoc stands comfortably above both. Burnham doesn't have the lows of St Enodoc (#13 in particular and to a lesser degree #8), but neither does it have the highs with truly drivable par 4s, magnificent scenery, a remarkable par 4 of great controversy (#10) and of course the wild 6th. This to me is the difference between the two. Not much when looked at separately, but when combined these elements add up to a lot.
The one course I see listed in the top 15 of England is Hillside. This is nothing close to how I see it. Hillside has a wonderous site that whose design lacks in imagination. Something is seriously amiss when the much flatter front 9 is better than the holes through the dunes of the back 9. Hillside has to be one of the greatest lost opportunities in England.
Ciao
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Terry- not to beat a dead horse, but Butler and Bob'o'link both recieved a 6 in the Confidential guide, with an implicit preference for the atmosphere at Bob'o'link...I may not be the most reliable source for GCA, but I'll take TomD's advice on the subject any day of the week. Of course, he gives Pebble a 9, so he's not perfect either....
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Under-rated...
Aiken Golf Club; Aiken, South Carolina...Old school feel, very well routed, off the charts wonderful greens with terrific contours and great placement which creates interesting choices for angles of attack. And the kicker is it costs $25 to walk.
Canterbury; Cleveland, Ohio...hands down the best turf I've played golf on. Truly spectacular routing. Wonderful variety in golf holes. Very tricky and subtle greens, again with simply sublime turf/putting surfaces...ideal blend of contours and appropriate green speeds.
Over-rated...
Atlanta Athletic Club Highlands; the blending of the two nines creates a totally disjointed feeling golf course. The front nine is pretty wide open and has a classic golf course feel to it. The back nine is tight, winds in and out of trees, and up and down hills. The routing on the back makes every twist and turn awkward. It seems to me that water is an over-used hazard on this course.
Tobacco Road...I know this is a love hate deal. So, I won't belabor the point. It isn't for me. However, a lot of people love it. That is fine and I respect it. I look forward to trying out Calendonia as I was told this might be a Strantz that is more normal.