Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Anthony Gray on September 29, 2009, 11:03:48 PM
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What influenced Ross's work/philosophy more? His time touring with Old Tom Morris or his earlier days at Royal Dornorch?
Anthony
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Anthony
Which tour with Old Tom are you referring to?
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Anthony
Which tour with Old Tom are you referring to?
Tom,
While in Scotland I questioned a golf historian about what direct influence OTM had on Donald Ross. He stated that they were on around 10 course sites during construction. Is that true? Also how much of RD do we see in Ross's work? What at Pinehurst or other courses looks like RD? It appears to me (possibly incorrect) that his courses may look more like OTM courses than like RD. As a student am I correct in my assumption or is there more I need to know? Thank you for you input Tom. After playing both RD and pinehurst I saw only a few things that I thought were similiar.
Anthony
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Ross wrote:
"My Design Standards"
"These are my standards to laying out a golf course: Make each hole present a different problem. So arrange it that every stroke must be made with full concentration and attention necessary to good golf. Build each hole in such a manner that it wastes none of the ground at my disposal, and takes advantage of every possibility I can see."
Golf Has Never Failed Me
I don't recall him ever attributing OTM in his book, but the above thought could concievingly have come from his relationship with him. Or, it could have come from RD as it sounds like how people describe RD.
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Anthony
Which tour with Old Tom are you referring to?
Tom,
While in Scotland I questioned a golf historian about what direct influence OTM had on Donald Ross. He stated that they were on around 10 course sites during construction. Is that true?
Anthony
No, its not true. Who was the golf historian?
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Tom
Rather than just say no, what proof have you to back up your comment.
Anthony, do not mention the name until Tom comes up with his proof or is it just another MacWood statement with no justification?
The ball is in your court Tom
As for me, I make no comment, but I know the individual Anthony is talking about, so look forward to your actual proof to back up your statement.
Melvyn
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Melvyn
Let me re-phrase my comments...there is no way in hell Ross was on a one course tour much less a ten course tour with OTM.
Ross's history is well documented. OTM came to Dornoch in 1886 to expand the course from nine to 18 holes. Ross was 14 years old. Unless OTM was of the habit of picking up young boys in small Scottish towns and taking them on tour with him we know it didn't happen at that time. Ross apprenticed under the club-maker Forgan in 1892 and then returned as the pro at Dornoch, where he remained until 1899, when he came to the States. During these years Donald Ross was an anonymous professional/greenkeeper, in fact he was more professional than greenkeeper because John Sutherland was the acting greenkeeper at Dornoch. Richard Tufts wrote that they did not hire Ross at Pinehurst for his greenkeeping skills, but rather for his golfing skills.
If there is anyone who influenced Ross's early career in golf architecture it would have been John Sutherland (the unsung man behind Dornoch and a very fine architect in his own right), and most likely Colt was the major influence when he took up the profession seriously.
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Tom,
Let me preface this by saying that I have nothing to add to the discussion as to whether ot not OTm & Ross spent any time together at a number of courses or not. The reason for this comment was were two sentences that you wrote. "Ross was 14 years old. Unless OTM was of the habit of picking up young boys in small Scottish towns and taking them on tour with him we know it didn't happen at that time..."
From our perspective today 14 is rather young and inexperienced, but in those days it certainly wasn't. 14 would have qualified him as a man to many; a young man, but a man nevertheless. Let me give you an example. In 1862, at the age of 12, B.C. Tillinghast, Tilly's father, entered the U.S. Merchant Marines and went to sea as a seaman. He wasn't a "cabin boy" but a working seaman. It was this experience that enabled him to enter the U.S. Naval Academy on July 3rd of 1866 when he was 16 years old. The records of the Academy state that he entered with the title of “Naval Apprentice,” or in other words, what today would be referred to as being “from the fleet.” This designation proves that he entered directly from another branch of enlisted naval service, in other words, the Merchant Marines.
Ross' age should have nothing to do with the discussion... I'm looking forward to what you guys will present...
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Tom,
Let me preface this by saying that I have nothing to add to the discussion as to whether ot not OTm & Ross spent any time together at a number of courses or not. The reason for this comment was were two sentences that you wrote. "Ross was 14 years old. Unless OTM was of the habit of picking up young boys in small Scottish towns and taking them on tour with him we know it didn't happen at that time..."
From our perspective today 14 is rather young and inexperienced, but in those days it certainly wasn't. 14 would have qualified him as a man to many; a young man, but a man nevertheless. Let me give you an example. In 1862, at the age of 12, B.C. Tillinghast, Tilly's father, entered the U.S. Merchant Marines and went to sea as a seaman. He wasn't a "cabin boy" but a working seaman. It was this experience that enabled him to enter the U.S. Naval Academy on July 3rd of 1866 when he was 16 years old. The records of the Academy state that he entered with the title of “Naval Apprentice,” or in other words, what today would be referred to as being
“from the fleet.” This designation proves that he entered directly from another branch of enlisted naval service, in other words, the Merchant Marines.
Ross' age should have nothing to do with the discussion... I'm looking forward to what you guys will present...
Huh? Thank you for interjecting the term 'cabin boy' into the discussion.
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Tom
You are a little shy on proof. Not interested in what you think but actual proof is required, so put up or shut up.
I find it hard to believe that you dismiss information which you have no idea who said it or their source. Boy, have you really got it in for Old Tom.
I don’t take kindly to your comment about Old Tom being a child snatcher either and should we ever meet you will feel the full thrust of my argument.
It is a base, disgraceful comment to make and totally uncalled for. You have crossed the line on this one as far as I am concerned.
Melvyn
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Anthony
I think its safe to say that Ross had the opportunity to be exposed to a lot of design ideas at St Andrews, Dornoch and else where.
At St Andrews, even discounting the influence of Old Tom, he would have been right in the melting pot of ideas about golf and golf course design. St Andrews then, as now, was a mecca for golfers and therefore he would have probably have heard what was happening in design as with other aspects of golf.
At Dornoch he was the professional but this was a time that a professional often did the greenkeeping and clubmaking. John Sutherland, who was club secretary at Dornoch would have been a big influence. Sutherland played in the British Amateur for a long number of years and held the course record at several courses including Brora, Wick and of course Dornoch. Sutherland is largely responsible for re-designing, altering and extending most of the holes at Dornoch over a long period (Rich is the man to tell you about it) and also designed Brora and Skibo while Ross was pro at Dornoch so it is conceivable that Ross was involved on those two courses on the construction side.
The other thing to bear in mind is that Dornoch at that time was a popular golfing tourist resort and Ross would have played with the likes of JH Taylor and John L Low, who were regular visitors to Dornoch so he would have had the benefit of their thoughts I'm sure.
Niall
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Melvyn
Things must not be going well at OTM-fountainhead-of-everything-good-dealing-with-golf-architecture Headquarters, you are now resorting to Argument from Ignorance tactics.
As far your not so veiled threats, lighten up. Old Tom was known for lightheartedness and good sense of humor. Did you not inherit those traits or were you adopted?
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Niall
Sutherland laid out the first nine at Brora in 1891 and the second nine in 1902. Skibo was laid out in 1902. Ross was a carpenter's apprentice in 1891 and was the USA in 1902.
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Anthony
I have no doubt that Sutherland was the greater influence on Ross, as the two we both natives of Dornoch and worked together there for some time sharing greenkeeping/design ideas as well as playing golf together. Ross also came back from the USA several times to Dornoch, firstly in 1910. That being said, his time in St. Andrews, where he had frequent and significant interaction with Old Tom and the other golfing worthies of that time, was probably also highly influential, paricularly as it happened in the early years of his adulthood, and after Sutherland had already noted his golfing ability. I would doubt if he did any golfing tours with OTM in the 1893-1895 period he was at St. Andrews, but I could be wrong. It is more probable that he helped out Sutherland in the work he did at Brora and perhaps elsewhere.
Tom MacW
According to newspaper accounts, the 2nd 9 at Brora was opened August 1897, so it is very possible that Ross could have been involved with Sutherland in that work. Also, to assert as you did above that Sutherland is "the unsung hero" at Dornoch is very naive. He is and has always been credited with his signficant contributions to the architecture and agronomy of Royal Dornoch, building on and continuously improving Old Tom's initial design, by the people who count--the people of Dornoch. He is unsung only to those who are tone deaf or just have never cared about GCA.
Rich
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Tom MacW
According to newspaper accounts, the 2nd 9 at Brora was opened August 1897, so it is very possible that Ross could have been involved with Sutherland in that work. Also, to assert as you did above that Sutherland is "the unsung hero" at Dornoch is very naive. He is and has always been credited with his signficant contributions to the architecture and agronomy of Royal Dornoch, building on and continuously improving Old Tom's initial design, by the people who count--the people of Dornoch. He is unsung only to those who are tone deaf or just have never cared about GCA.
Rich
Rich
I'm glad to hear the locals appreciate Sutherland. IMO he should be better known in the greater golfing world than he is currently.
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Well, it seems to me that Harry Colt must have had at least some influence on Ross's post-1913 work, given that they walked around Old Elm together for a few days before Ross built it for Colt.
Dave
I agree with you, and actually they were involved in more projects together than what is generally known. This is a developing story.
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Tom MacW
According to newspaper accounts, the 2nd 9 at Brora was opened August 1897, so it is very possible that Ross could have been involved with Sutherland in that work. Also, to assert as you did above that Sutherland is "the unsung hero" at Dornoch is very naive. He is and has always been credited with his signficant contributions to the architecture and agronomy of Royal Dornoch, building on and continuously improving Old Tom's initial design, by the people who count--the people of Dornoch. He is unsung only to those who are tone deaf or just have never cared about GCA.
Rich
Rich
I'm glad to hear the locals appreciate Sutherland. IMO he should be better known in the greater golfing world than he is currently.
Thanks for that article, Tom. I can see why you misunderstood that his work in 1902 was the second 9 at Brora (which was completed in 1897) rather than the extension of the then existing 18.
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Rich
Could you please post the articles?
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Rich
Could you please post the articles?
Ask Melvyn, Tom. He has the original.
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Do you have the articles?
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Ask Melvyn, and be nicey, nicey. ;)
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Its an easy question. Do you have the articles?
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It's an easy answer, Tom. I have a copy of an article which Melvyn kindly send me. If you want a copy of that article too, ask Melvyn.
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Tom
In the immortal words of Barry Humphries look to your e-mail Tom, “You smooth talking bastard”, of course, no disrespect actually intended. ESP is alive and working, now that is something to prove. ???
I believe that is pure Aussie humour, I expect those from 'Down Under 'may correct me if I have it wrong.
Melvyn
PS Please feel free to say thanks or more likely to disagree with the articles. Love you to meet the authors in person. ;)
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Thanks Melvyn, I look forward to receiving it. I assume its on its way.
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Rich/Melvyn
If its the article I'm thinking about then I think you'll find JS only laid it out which mean't someone else must have designed it ;)
Niall
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How could I forget, Niall! :-[ Has anybody checked the train schedules from Huddersfield to Brora in 1897 to see if HH Barker might have dropped by then?
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I suppose a bit early for Wilson, when was it he travelled to UK 1912isk. Come to think of it he may have been just a few years old in 1892, but that proves very little on here. If there is an opinion, there no doubt will be an agenda, or is that just stretching reality just a little too far? No, I fear not for GCA.com Members. One thing is for certain OTM did not design the 1892 9 hole or the extension, but who was it that was responsible for playing golf at Brora in the mid 1880’s, now that is the question.
Melvyn
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Melvyn
My guess is Old Tom (as many at Brora believe), but I'm not discounting Barker!
PS--Getting back to Anthony's topic, I found a reference in my vast research library (aka the garage) to the effect that the young Donald Ross "had watched Old Tom Morris at work when the old veteran viewed and planned the golf course on Dornoch links" in 1886, so the reports of his relationship with OTM during his time at St. Andrews might not be the fantasy that Tom MacW implies.
Rich
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Rich
Much has been uncovered over the last few years, reports surfacing and confirmed by others sources. I am interested in written reports, how they can jump-start a search. Niall, as you know has been very active is his own research, which has also assisted my own topic of OTM. Niall is more interested in the later periods coming into the 20th Century I believe, but our interests do overlap at times. Niall has been a great help and has been credited with his input with the clubs that have benefited from his finds. I will not forget his help with Lamlash & Kelvinside, which has greatly increased our knowledge.
The questions one I suppose should ask is not necessary about Ross but Sutherland himself. Without going in to the story or details, Sutherland was more than a good golfer and ultimately involved in design. One must ask the question where did he get the design bug from, what pushed his interest in that direction, why did he not design the Dornoch extensions and mods in the late 1880’s?
There is a main focal point and by looking at the history most seems to stem from the late 1880’s. By 1892, Sutherland felt confident to design Brora & then Skibo, he felt it worthwhile to send Ross to St Andrews. Who was based at St Andrews and known as a course designer and would Ross have been involved in any way with OTM.
According to some NO, so why bother trying to change a closed mind. However knowing Sutherland as OTM did, why would he ignore the lad who was sent down to learn. Ask yourself was that OTM nature to ignore and not help.
As for Anthony comment, he had the pleasure of meeting an interesting guy who knows a lot about golf in St Andrews and Scotland, plus of the individuals concerned. If he made that statement, I would not dismiss it but would want to know more, to learn what courses etc.etc. However, that would be crediting OTM with contact with Ross and possibly influencing the young man, which is not what some want to hear let alone believe.
Forget proof or supporting articles or information from other historians. Does it add up that Ross would not have met OTM, would not have been interested in him and his work, but stayed alone working is a club factory while other played golfer and talked to OTM. Then you have to ask yourself why did all the others, to name but three Mackenzie, Hutchinson & Tillinghast bother with OTM. Sometimes simple basic common sense is also required, but I suppose when it questions one own agenda and opinions you must dismiss it quickly are irrelevant.
If you were a lad today and Tiger was the name in town, would you stay away and not be influenced by him. Hard one I suppose to work out.
Nevertheless, I think we need to go back to Sutherland. As for Ross, alas as I have said before he never shined here in Scotland, but that takes nothing away from what he did in his lifetime in golf.
Melvyn
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The gentelman I spoke to was David Joy at a resteraunt pub in St Andrews. He was a fountain of information and we most likly spent one and a half hours together. He is an actor and portrays OTM on the video "Keeper of the Greens" and also does public events as OTM. Many ,many things were discussed. I asked from an architectural standpoint what influence did OTM have on CBM. He shrugged and and shook his head as if to say not much. When asked the same about Donald Ross he said they toured some courses together. Then he started talking about Willie Park JR who was open champion leading the way for scotish golfers coming to the states to spred the game as well as to build courses. I wish I could have gone into more detail with to Ross question, but I was all ears. Had alot of laughs also.
Anthony
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Melvyn
I'm sorry, I must have misunderstood, I thought you said you were going email the article. Did you change your mind? Whatever the case no harm was done.
Here is an interesting article from Golf April 1892.
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Tom, I sent them to you twice on 'thomas.macwood@sbcglobal.net' 7 seven hours & 6 hours ago
Melvyn
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Thanks, Anthony
David Joy does know his Old Tom Morris as, in addition to channeling him for money, he wrote the "Scrapbook of OTM" which has a lot of good info in it. Did he mention any specifics of Ross and Morris's interaction.
Rich
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Tom
Sending my e-mail and attachments right now.
Melvyn
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Tom, I sent them to you twice on 'thomas.macwood@sbcglobal.net' 7 seven hours & 6 hours ago
Melvyn
I have not received it.
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Here is an excerpt from an interview with Ross after his first tour (1910) of golf courses for the stated purpose of studying golf architecture.
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Thanks, Anthony
David Joy does know his Old Tom Morris as, in addition to channeling him for money, he wrote the "Scrapbook of OTM" which has a lot of good info in it. Did he mention any specifics of Ross and Morris's interaction.
Rich
Rich,
Only that they looked at courses together. The conversation sliped back and forth from golf history to humor. He was great company. I am glad to say it was not the first time I had spent with David,and it is always a treat.
Anthony
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Melvyn
I don't know what the problem is, but I haven't received your email.
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Well, that's quite interesting - because what is generally known is that although they have worked on the same courses at different times (remodels, etc.), they actually worked together only once.
Here is an article about their redesign work at Glen View. Its a little fuzzy and at one point the author confuses Colt and Ross, but I think you get the general idea. I've also seen them mentioned as a team at Indian Hill and some touch up work for CC of Detroit. In 1920 Colt listed Exmoor as a course he was involved with as well. After they collaborated in the Spring of 1913 later that year Ross went back to the UK for his second golf architecture tour.
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I have resent them fist my e-mail without attachments , then just the attachgments, but here are some of what has been sent
Brora New 9 Hole Course 25.03.1892
(http://i346.photobucket.com/albums/p421/Melvyn_Hunter/TheScotsmanArchives25031892BroraGol.jpg)
Brora New Course Minor Mods & Clubhouse 17.11.1893
(http://i346.photobucket.com/albums/p421/Melvyn_Hunter/TheScotsmanArchives17111893BroraGC5.jpg)
Brora Course 9 to 18 Holes 5.08.1897
(http://i346.photobucket.com/albums/p421/Melvyn_Hunter/BroraExtendedto18byJohnSutherland05.jpg)
Brora Course 18 Hole Mods 2.01.1906
(http://i346.photobucket.com/albums/p421/Melvyn_Hunter/TheScotsmanArchives2011906BroraGCEx.jpg)
Melvyn
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Melvyn
Thanks for the articles...your email just came through too. I think the date of your third article is off, it had to be in August, not May, because that was when the Calcutta Cup was traditionally played. Did you find any mention of Ross?
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Tom
I think the dates mentioned are totally correct. First was the 5.08.1897 then again confirmed the news of the extension on the 13.08 1897 being a Friday. So I believe they are correct, unless the papers printed the wrong date on the two dates.
Dates are correct.
Melvyn
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Tom & Melvyn,
You're BOTH correct!
Tom, you wrote, "I think the date of your third article is off, it had to be in August, not May..."
Melvyn wrote the date as you would find it done in the U.K. "Brora Course 9 to 18 Holes 5.08.1897..."
5(day).08 (month - August).1897(year)
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Thanks for those, Melvyn
Don't worry about Tom MacW. He thinks that 5.08.1897 means May 8, rather than August 5. Keep spoon feeding the poor guy. He'll eventually learn, and maybe even some day have the courtesy to answer the question you posed to him earlier in this thread........
Rich
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The Golf Article posted by Tom from April 1892 was a direct copy taken from The Scotsman Newspaper of the 25th of March 1892. Surprising as I would have thought that Golf would have been more detailed, shows that the Scotsman were spot on.
Melvyn
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Tom, I think you're stretching with this, to be honest. I think the fact that Old Elm was a Colt design built by Ross confused the author into believing that they were some sort of business team, like Hall & Oates or Laurel & Hardy. It said this guys ideas "represent" the work of Colt and Ross. It doesn't say they did anything. It sounds more to me like this Ferguson fellow was inspired by Old Elm than anything else.
I admit - I've always been curious about the Indian Hill thing, given that nobody around here has even given Colt any credit for it (it's always been called a Ross by most folks around here), but I'm not there yet in terms of Ross doing anything at Glen View.
Time will tell.
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The Golf Article posted by Tom from April 1892 was a direct copy taken from The Scotsman Newspaper of the 25th of March 1892. Surprising as I would have thought that Golf would have been more detailed, shows that the Scotsman were spot on.
Melvyn
Melvyn
In 1892? Why would the newly formed golf magazine have been more detailed, and weren't they both based in Edinburg? I wouldn't be surprised if there was a crossover in the staff...who was the author of the newspaper article?