Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Tom MacWood on September 27, 2009, 10:15:17 PM
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These are the golf courses that Donald Ross claimed in an advertising pamphlet. It is not dated, but based upon the courses listed it must have come out around 1929 or 1930, very near the end of his career.
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Is allegheny country club (pa) no longer in existance, or did it change names?
very cool post, btw.
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I believe he also worked on St. Charles Golf and Country Club in Winnipeg as well as Pine ridge in Winnipeg.
They are not listed on there.
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Isnt this the piece from the Tufts Archives that some here used to show that Southern Pines was in fact a Ross a couple years ago?
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I believe he also worked on St. Charles Golf and Country Club in Winnipeg as well as Pine ridge in Winnipeg.
They are not listed on there.
From my study of the courses he listed, if a course had subsequently been remodeled, as was the case with St. Charles by Mackenzie, Ross would not list it. Bob O'Link is not listed either. He only listed pure Ross designs, in fact he did not list courses designed by his associates. When and what did Ross do at Pine Ridge?
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I wonder why Chattanooga Golf and CC isn't listed. Didn't it open in 1896 as a Ross design?
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I'm pretty sure Ross didn't come to the States until 1899.
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Allegheny is still around.
http://www.alleghenycountryclub.com/
The Tufts archives does have this little booklet.
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Perhaps it's a small distinction or perhaps it's just the timing of the pamphlet (app. 1930?) but in at least one case his advertising pamphlet listed 27 holes for one golf club when in fact only 18 holes were built.
He also doesn't seem to list a number of municipal courses often attributed to him (were most of them done by his associates only?). This pamphlet is probably another good reason why Norristown Pa's Jeffersonville should be attributed to J.B. McGovern (Ross's Pa associate) just as Mrs Morrison, McGovern's daughter, has always said. It may also be another indication that Aronimink's original multi-set bunkers (claimed in an early Aronimink tournament program to be similar to Jeffersonville's) were J.B McGoven idea (McGovern was a member and on the green committee of Aronimink GC) and why Ross's own Aronimink "field drawings" called for singles in the same places the "multi-sets" were originally built.
PS:
This pertains to an Aronimink thread on this website some years ago when in the last 6-7 years the club elected to restore Ross's "field drawing" single bunkers even if the course apparently was not built that way and never had those single Ross "field drawing" bunkers until approximately 2002-3! A most interesting architectural evolution indeed! ;)
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Duane,
From the St. Charles website:
A group of 23 prominent businessman gathered in 1904 to organize a country club outside the city of Winnipeg. In 1905, construction began on the clubhouse and a golf course, laid out by Tom Bendelow, seven miles west of the city on the banks of the Assiniboine River.
Before the year ended, the club had entertained the Governor-General of Canada, Earl Grey, and one of its members, Douglas Laird, had scored the first hole-in-one. It was an auspicious beginning to what would become an outstanding institution in the sporting and social life of the community.
The country club pioneered polo in Manitoba, hosting teams from Canada and the U.S. Croquet, steeple-chasing, tennis, cricket and trapshooting were also popular. But golf became the preference of members.
In 1919, world-famous course architect Donald Ross was brought to St. Charles to rebuild the original eighteen holes, the Ross Nine and the Woods Nine.
High mounds and steep slopes around bunkers and greens distinguish St. Charles, as they do more than 100 other Ross-designed courses.
Another renowned architect, Dr. Alister MacKenzie, famous for his designs at Royal Melbourne in Australia and Cypress Point in California, was hired in 1929 to layout the MacKenzie Nine. It opened in 1931, and the MacKenzie hallmark of blending the course into the natural terrain was incorporated into St. Charles.
It has been the Club's constant desire to maintain quality and improvements have been made through the years by noted Canadian architects Stanley Thompson, Norman Woods and Bill Robinson.
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There is some question if Southern Pines ever finished their 36 holes too. It appears they were under construction, but I don't believe the last nine was finished. 1929/1930 was a pretty rough period. I wonder if that had something to do with the third nine at Aronomink not being built.
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"I wonder if that had something to do with the third nine at Aronomink not being built."
I do not know specifically why the third nine of Aronimink was not built (even though it was designed). I'm not sure if the club even knows but I do know who to ask. My point was Ross listed in that pamphlet nine holes that were not built at the time which would seemingly indicate his pamphlet also included "designs" and not necessarily "finished products."
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TEP
That was a pretty common practice. Colt and Mackenzie had similar pamphlets and listed major projects that were either on the drawing board or in the early phases of construction.
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"TEP
That was a pretty common practice."
I'm sure it was and it certainly makes sense. It does raise perhaps a pretty interesting point however-----eg some of these clubs back then may've just been buying designs from some of these architects and not necessarily the construction contracting of them.
My own course, GMGC (1916-1919) seems to have been that way. Ross certainly did our design but it appears the construction contracting of it and the day to day oversight of it was left to one of our members, a man by the name of Weston Hibbs. He actually lived in the pre-existing farmhouse we used as our clubhouse in the very early years during the course's construction years of 1916-1919.
Matter of fact, the original greenkeeper (grow-in guy?) of Aronimink lived in the same old farmhouse that is still today the maintenance office (John Goesslin's office). I know this because J.B. McGovern's daughter, Mrs Morrison told me so. The greenskeeper's daughter was her best friend. She remembers Donald Ross very well! She is the only person I'm aware of today who actually met Ross and knew him with the possble exception of Pete Dye. She said he was to her something like a favorite uncle and she even said that he stuck his thumbs in his vest all the time as we can see in a few of the old photographs of him. Ross's daughter, Lillian, lived above Ross's Wynnewood office as a newly-wed.
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I know there has been a lot of talk about what was or wasn't a Ross course and I do notice a few courses missing on the list. However, isn't it reasonable to give Ross credit for work done by his associates under the Ross company name? This business of trying to divide out exactly who did what seems a bit ott to me. Now, there are times when it is clear that one chap is in charge of an area (like Alison for example) and that he should be given at least co credit unless he is already a partner rather than an associate. Afterall, the guy who signs the cheques the is the boss and he takes the good with the bad because he either implicitly or explicitly "signs off" on work.
One of the courses I was looking for was Rogell in Detroit. Its always labeled a Ross and built around 1921 - a generally very busy time for Ross in Michigan.
Tom P
Wasn't the tiered service Ross offered well known?
Ciao
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Sean Arble:
As far as I'm concerned design credit going to Ross or some of his "associates" such as McGovern and Hatch (listed on that pamphlet as associates) can be looked at however one wants to look at it.
The point is Ross had a remarkably intergrated company for that early time (some say up to 3,000 people on the payroll at one time or another----eg apparently in the mid 1920s when he had more projects going in a single year than at any other time).
Jeffersonville GC in Norristown Pa may be a good indicator of this kind of thing. The club now lists the course as a Ross design, but McGovern's daughter has always claimed that her father, J.B. McGovern, designed it and built it. I'm sure she is probably right about that but that does not mean it was not part of Donald Ross's company because McGovern was one of his associates and Jeffersonville did eventually find some pay receipts for the course in an attic that were to the Donald Ross company.
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Tom:
I don't see Oconomowoc CC in Wisconsin listed in your pamphlet/ad; I've always seen it listed as only one of two Ross courses (Kenosha CC the other) in Wisconsin. Michael J. Fay's "Golf, As it was Meant to be Played" also lists Oconomowoc as a Ross.
This is from the club's website:
History of Oconomowoc Golf Club
The Country Club of Oconomowoc opened as a nine-hole golf course in 1896, on the East end of an estate on the north shore of Lac La Belle. This new club served as a summer getaway to many of the area millionaires. In the early 1900’s, a large portion of the membership desired to increase the golf course to 18 holes. However, the expansion was not desired by all, resulting in a membership split. After surviving some financial difficulty, the Country Club of Oconomowoc was acquired by a group and renamed it the Lac LaBelle Golf Club.
One of the drawbacks of The Country Club of Oconomowoc (Lac LaBelle CC) was the lengthy carriage ride many members endured traveling from their lake home to the club. In 1909 five men assembled and financed a new golf club to be located on Highway P. John Watkins Mariner (1868-130) led this small group with his previous golf course experience, which involved the promotion of the seven-hole Folsom Avenue Golf Course in Milwaukee in 1894. He hired the famous golf course designer Donald Ross from Scotland. The land, which the finance group purchased, included the Timmel, Thompson and Wilbur farms. The Wilbur farmhouse would eventually become the clubhouse. The original bill for the construction of the new Oconomowoc Golf Club and the fee for Donald Ross were believed to be around $50,000. Several severe rainstorms washed out the newly constructed greens and increased the construction costs. Mariner recruited enough new members to refinance, allowing the project to continue. The construction of the course was completed in 1915. The Oconomowoc Golf Club opened for business in 1916.
During the next several decades, the membership remained small and content. World War II forced several changes to the Oconomowoc Golf Club. Several members were called “to duty” and the membership was also still feeling the effects of the Great Depression. In order to overcome this period, the Oconomowoc Golf Club closed the back 9 golf holes. These holes were allowed to grow wild. The turf on the back 9 greens was removed and relocated to a member’s neighboring farm and kept. In the later 1940’s, the green sod was replaced and the back 9 holes mowed and maintained.
During the early 1950’s, the original clubhouse was becoming old and deficient. The construction of a new clubhouse began as a result of a bet between two of the club’s wealthier members. Shortly after the initial digging of the site, the member passed away, leaving all personal finance to his wife. The construction of the new clubhouse halted. For almost 10 years the Oconomowoc Golf Club included a traditional Donald Ross golf course and a “hole”. In the early 1960’s, George Johnson proceeded to complete the clubhouse construction. In 1962, the new clubhouse would open on the highest elevation in Waukesha County thus producing a beautiful view of the surrounding area.
Although the famous Donald Ross designed the golf course, it was not well known among the membership until the late 1970’s. The promotion of the Donald Ross design began with the discovery of an original 1915 Donald Ross blue print of the golf course design. A golf course restoration began in 1995 under the direction of Craig Schreiner. The Renovation Master Plan was an essential tool in helping restore the character of the 1916 Donald Ross design. The renovation involved the restoring of all greens, tee, fairways and sand bunkers. The renovations were designed to not only restore the original intent, but also provide the golfing challenge consistent with today’s maintenance and golf equipment advancements.
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I know there has been a lot of talk about what was or wasn't a Ross course and I do notice a few courses missing on the list. However, isn't it reasonable to give Ross credit for work done by his associates under the Ross company name? This business of trying to divide out exactly who did what seems a bit ott to me. Now, there are times when it is clear that one chap is in charge of an area (like Alison for example) and that he should be given at least co credit unless he is already a partner rather than an associate. Afterall, the guy who signs the cheques the is the boss and he takes the good with the bad because he either implicitly or explicitly "signs off" on work.
One of the courses I was looking for was Rogell in Detroit. Its always labeled a Ross and built around 1921 - a generally very busy time for Ross in Michigan.
Sean
I think it is reasonable to give Ross credit for courses done by his associates, but apparently Ross didn't see it that way. I don't know why Rogell is not listed but I suspect there is a very good reason. Two well-known Ross courses in Ohio are not on the list either - Westbrook CC in Mansfield and Lancaster CC. Both clubs have maps hanging in their clubhouses, and Walter Hatch is the author of both of them.
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It does raise perhaps a pretty interesting point however-----eg some of these clubs back then may've just been buying designs from some of these architects and not necessarily the construction contracting of them.
Willie Park-II, Colt and Mackenzie all made note of courses they designed but did not build on their similar listings; I assume making the point you can always guarantee quality when courses are constructed by outside agents. So there is good reason to believe Ross had similar perspective, and perhaps even more stringent attitude, by refusing to even list those courses.
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Phil
The history you quoted makes me wonder exactly what Ross did for Oconomowoc. I suspect there is a very good reason why he did not include it.
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Eric,
I believe Ross did the Chattanooga work in the 1920's just as he did Augusta CC, even though both clubs were established in the 1800's.
Mark
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Phil
The history you quoted makes me wonder exactly what Ross did for Oconomowoc. I suspect there is a very good reason why he did not include it.
Which is.....?
If this list is one of the primary reasons you cite for Watson vs. Ross' design at White Bear YC, why should it not then be used as a source for Ross' design of Oconomowoc?
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When and what did Ross do at Pine Ridge?
Pine Ridge was originally designed by Tom Bendelow, and Ross produced a renovation plan in 1919. He did not drastically alter the original routing, although he amalgamated 4 holes into 2, and built 2 brand new holes. Ross devised a new bunkering scheme for the course, his plan calling for 106 new bunkers in addition to 6 new greens and 11 sets of tees.
TK
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Why doesn't that pamphlet list the CC of Orlando? I believe they think they have a Ross course, but maybe they're mistaken too. ???
There seem to be 10 or a dozen more courses in Florida that also think they are Ross courses. Are they all mistaken or is there some reason that pamphlet just didn't list a number of courses Ross was involved with?
Maybe Ross decided to just list the courses he thought might get the most respect in an advertizing pamphlet.
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Tom,
This is copy of 12 page booklet which is dated 1930 on page 1. This booklet is available at Tuft's Archives and has shown up from time to time on here. It was used in effort to prove Southern Pine's lineage at this blog following Rich Mandell's Pinehurst book:
http://donaldrossmystery.blogspot.com/feeds/posts/default
Dave
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Dave:
How does the list in your blog compare to the one that Macwood posted? Are they the same list? If so, it would appear to be a partial list:
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Lo9zadDI6MY/Rpcf7j_2y5I/AAAAAAAAAC0/ugNS8mvJ9K0/s400/Rossbrochure2.jpg)
The NC page looks the same:
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Lo9zadDI6MY/RpcgFD_2y6I/AAAAAAAAAC8/JKXFV72IhbY/s400/Rossbrochure3.jpg)
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I would have to say it doesn't seem exactly conclusive to me that if a golf course was not listed in a pamphlet like the Ross one on here that means that Ross had nothing to do with said course.
A good analogy might be C.B. Macdonald's book, "Scotland's Gift Golf" that does not seem to mention a few courses which Macdonald didn't just have a little to do with, he had a WHOLE LOT to do with them.
So why did he not mention some of them while he prominently mentioned some others?
Aha! Very good question, the answer to which I think I have a pretty good idea about, or certainly about one of them! ;)
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In Colorado Ross only lists The Broadmoor course, and I do know that he designed other courses here. In particular, I've seen copies of the Ross drawings for the Wellshire golf course (thank you Doug Wright !). I don't know that the date of the pamphlet would be the issue in this case, as apparently that course was done during the same period as The Broadmoor. Of course, he may have chosen to only list certain courses, based on a criteria to which we are not privy.
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Other than the cover page the first pamplet appears to be the same as the list Mr. Topp posted. It seems to me that both are partial lists of what he considered his highlights for the purpose of soliciting further projects. A busy man by any standard.
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No mention in the pamphlet of either White Bear Yacht Club or Minneapolis Golf Club, both of which are officially credited as Ross redesigns by the respective clubs. (Also, no reference to Cloquet Country Club near Duluth, which calls itself a Ross -- original 9, anyway -- without any evidence that I'm aware of.)
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Did Beresford CC in San Mateo, CA become Peninsula CC?
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Phil
The history you quoted makes me wonder exactly what Ross did for Oconomowoc. I suspect there is a very good reason why he did not include it.
Which is.....?
If this list is one of the primary reasons you cite for Watson vs. Ross' design at White Bear YC, why should it not then be used as a source for Ross' design of Oconomowoc?
Phil
I don't know why Ross didn't include it, but I'm sure he had a good reason. Perhaps the course was not built by him or the course was subsequently changed or one of a dozen other potential reasons. The history you quoted claims the course opened in 1916, however American Golfer reported that the new course would be opening in the spring of 1917. I'm not sure the reason for the discrepancy in dates. And I don't see the parallel with WBYC. There you have two different contemporaneous internal club sources saying Watson designed the course, with Ross giving advice at some point. Apples and oranges IMO.
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/AmericanGolfer/1917/ag174m.pdf
Tyler
Thanks for the info.
TEP
Orlando CC was nine hole course that dated back to 1910. I'm not sure who designed it; Ross added a second nine in 1917.
Kirk
The Broadmoor was designed in 1918 and I believe Wellshire was designed in 1924 or 1925. I'm not sure what the story is with Wellshire, but seem to recall Walter Hatch's name being associated with the course.
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No mention in the pamphlet of either White Bear Yacht Club or Minneapolis Golf Club, both of which are officially credited as Ross redesigns by the respective clubs. (Also, no reference to Cloquet Country Club near Duluth, which calls itself a Ross -- original 9, anyway -- without any evidence that I'm aware of.)
Rick
William Watson designed WBYC and Tom Bendelow designed Minneapolis.
Tim
Beresford did become Peninsula.
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Tom, I know that Doug Wright has posted that Wellshire was designed exclusively from topo maps, and that Ross never visited the site. However, I seem to remember Mark Fine (perhaps?) writing on here that Ross did visit. I think that your dates are correct, although I've also seen a 1926 date for Wellshire.
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I'm pretty sure Ross didn't come to the States until 1899.
I played in the Piqua(OH) 100 year anniversary in 1997.
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Sean Arble
You may not have been able to find Rogell on the brochure since an existing course was renamed for Billy Rogell who played shortstop for the Tigers between 1924 and 1940 and then was a long time city council member. I have no idea what the name of the original course was, but I think it's most likely a case of an identity change rather than an omission.
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Curious that he doesn't list Beverly as a remodel given the extent to which he apparently used O'Neil's routing and at the same time listed Exmoor as a remodel when he totally rerouted the course. Also no mention of Hinsdale (Illinois) which is listed in Brad Klein's book as a Ross. He also did remodel work at Glen View and Midlothian in Chicago and those are not listed.
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Sean Arble
You may not have been able to find Rogell on the brochure since an existing course was renamed for Billy Rogell who played shortstop for the Tigers between 1924 and 1940 and then was a long time city council member. I have no idea what the name of the original course was, but I think it's most likely a case of an identity change rather than an omission.
Steve
I knew the course name was changed in honour of Rogell, but I can't find what it would have been called originally on that list because there is no other course listed which could have become Rogell (now New Rogell since the city of Detroit sold the course). There are other Michigan courses missing as well. It would be very interesting to know how Ross (at the time) came up with this list.
Ciao
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"TEP
Orlando CC was nine hole course that dated back to 1910. I'm not sure who designed it; Ross added a second nine in 1917."
Then one wonders why CC of Orlando was not on that advertising pamphlet as he did list a course where he did a lot less (if anythng) than add nine holes (Whitemarsh Valley). I guess the point is that pamphlet should probably not be used as a comprehensive list of what was actually done or not done by the Ross company up until 1930.
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Steve
I knew the course name was changed in honour of Rogell, but I can't find what it would have been called originally on that list because there is no other course listed which could have become Rogell (now New Rogell since the city of Detroit sold the course). There are other Michigan courses missing as well. It would be very interesting to know how Ross (at the time) came up with this list.
Ciao
Sean
I did some checking it was originally Phoenix Country Club and it was designed by Tom Bendelow in 1914. It was Jewish Club and I believe Max Fisher was involved in its development. If you go near end (page 155) of the article linked below it talks about it being one of 30 courses Bendelow was involved with that year. The Ross Society has Ross's involvement dated 1921.
What other Michigan courses are missing?
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/AmericanGolfer/1914/ag132k.pdf
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Sean,
I remembered reading about Rogell and that he had a Ross golf course named after him, but I couldn't remember where, when or why I knew such a thing. I searched on line and found this:
Detroit's Historic Rogell Golf Course Has New Owner
The year was 1914. The leading citizens of Detroit's Jewish community, including Max Fisher, opened the Phoenix Golf Club, later to become the Rogell Golf Course. Now its new owners, the Greater Grace Temple, have preserved a special piece of the city's history as well as a local gem.
"This purchase is very significant in that we have become the only African-American-owned and -operated golf course in the entire state," said Greater Grace Temple Pastor, Bishop Charles H. Ellis III. "This course and club have a rich legacy dating back to 1914 and that includes the likes of such prominent men as Donald Ross and Max Fisher. We are excited to continue the revitalization of this northwest corner of Detroit with this $2-million investment."
Later on in the article it mentions the back nine, rolling hills and the Rouge River.
So it would appear that the course in question, the Phoenix Golf Club, is another of those not on the list for whatever reason.
Regards
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Tom,
Aside from the fact that we nearly posted on top of one another, isn't it interesting that everyone claims Ross and so few mention Bendelow as their progenitor. Perhaps Ross didn't claim Phoenix because it was more of a reworking or tweaking rather than a full fledged design.
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"TEP
Orlando CC was nine hole course that dated back to 1910. I'm not sure who designed it; Ross added a second nine in 1917."
Then one wonders why CC of Orlando was not on that advertising pamphlet as he did list a course where he did a lot less (if anythng) than add nine holes (Whitemarsh Valley). I guess the point is that pamphlet should probably not be used as a comprehensive list of what was actually done or not done by the Ross company up until 1930.
TEP
I have a two part answer: I believe the changes to Whitemarsh Valley were a little more comprehensive than you realize and Whitemarsh was a superior and more well known golf course than Orlando (before and after). If you are Donald Ross and you are going to list courses you've remodeled, you are only going to list those courses that are that are among the elite or at least semi-elite.
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Tom,
Aside from the fact that we nearly posted on top of one another, isn't it interesting that everyone claims Ross and so few mention Bendelow as their progenitor. Perhaps Ross didn't claim Phoenix because it was more of a reworking or tweaking rather than a full fledged design.
Steve
I agree with you. Also the few courses he did list as redesigns were fairly high profile and I'm not sure Phoenix would qualify.
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Steve
I knew the course name was changed in honour of Rogell, but I can't find what it would have been called originally on that list because there is no other course listed which could have become Rogell (now New Rogell since the city of Detroit sold the course). There are other Michigan courses missing as well. It would be very interesting to know how Ross (at the time) came up with this list.
Ciao
Sean
I did some checking it was originally Phoenix Country Club and it was designed by Tom Bendelow in 1914. It was Jewish Club and I believe Max Fisher was involved in its development. If you go near end (page 8) of the article linked below it talks about it being one of 30 courses Bendelow was involved with that year. The Ross Society has Ross's involvement dated 1921.
What other Michigan courses are missing?
Tommy Mac & Steve
Wow, I never heard of Phoenix CC in Detroit. However, it does explain the rather odd design that Rogell is - nothing remotely like the other courses Ross was involved in Michigan at the same time period, but some of this may be explained by the odd shape of land and I suspect later reworking because of roads.
Warren Valley which is two 18s today with an old 18 hole Ross course as their core isn't listed. Western, another old Detroit club isn't listed. St Claire CC ( I think it is now called its original name of St Clair River CC) is another club I know fairly well that isn't listed.
Its also interesting that Franklin Hills seems to be called Franklin Woods - in Detroit. The place names for this listing could cause a lot of confusion because some are inaccurate.
Ciao
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Curious that he doesn't list Beverly as a remodel given the extent to which he apparently used O'Neil's routing and at the same time listed Exmoor as a remodel when he totally rerouted the course. Also no mention of Hinsdale (Illinois) which is listed in Brad Klein's book as a Ross. He also did remodel work at Glen View and Midlothian in Chicago and those are not listed.
Dan
I agree that is curious about Beverly. There are several similar major redesigns he does not list as such: East Lake, Oakley, Minikahda, Interlachen, Metacomet, Congress Lake and Youngstown to name a few. It is my understanding his work at Glen View and Midlothian was relatively minor. Who do your records show designed Hinsdale?
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Warren Valley which is two 18s today with an old 18 hole Ross course as their core isn't listed. Western, another old Detroit club isn't listed. St Claire CC ( I think it is now called its original name of St Clair River CC) is another club I know fairly well that isn't listed.
Its also interesting that Franklin Hills seems to be called Franklin Woods - in Detroit. The place names for this listing could cause a lot of confusion because some are inaccurate.
Ciao
Sean
I think with a little digging one could find the reason (or reasons) why those three courses were not listed. I do know the Tufts Archives has no plans for those three courses, which is odd considering they are all dated to the 20s.
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When I joined Kenosha CC in 1987 I was told that it was 1 of 2 Ross courses in Wisconsin. The other was Oconomowoc CC. Our members were quick to point out that KCC was the only Ross course in WI that Ross actually made a site visit. KCC Board minutes state that the Board authorized a payment to Ross reimbursing him for travel expenses to Kenosha. For many years there appeared to be no evidence that Ross ever set foot on OCC. Then following the 1995 OCC restoration and remodeling of their clubhouse a hall tribute to Ross was erected which indicated that the architect had been on site. It seems curious that in 1929 Ross still had not included OCC in his body of work.
Regards
SMO
“World’s Fastest Golfer”
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Jason Topp,
The lists are identical. From original post the only thing missing is title page.
Dave
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"I believe the changes to Whitemarsh Valley were a little more comprehensive than you realize and Whitemarsh was a superior and more well known golf course than Orlando (before and after)."
Whitemarsh Valley obviously was considered to be a more well known golf course than Orlando CC but first of all, I'm not so sure you could possibly know what I realize Ross changes to Whitemarsh Valley were because I don't believe I've ever talked about them on here or to you. Secondly, Ross's contribution to Whitemarsh Valley might be more complicated than you have ever realized and what really happened there with Ross might be indicated to some extent by that example of Ross claiming 27 holes at Aronimink when we all know only 18 were ever built (of course Ross did do drawings for the third nine that was never built which the club has).
I have Ross's plans for changes to Whitemarsh Valley but interestingly those Ross drawings came to us in that box of William Flynn's entire career drawings that were found in a barn in Bucks Co. where they had been for over fifty years. It would seem that Whitemarsh Valley must have hired Ross to draw some proposed changes but instead decided to go with William Flynn and that is probably why Ross's drawings for Whitemarsh Valley ended up in that box in that barn in Bucks Co containing almost all Flynn's career drawings.
That is also how we found Raynor's whole course design drawing for The Creek Club which Flynn made some changes to around 1926-1929!
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"I believe the changes to Whitemarsh Valley were a little more comprehensive than you realize and Whitemarsh was a superior and more well known golf course than Orlando (before and after)."
Whitemarsh Valley obviously was considered to be a more well known golf course than Orlando CC but first of all, I'm not so sure you could possibly know what I realize Ross changes to Whitemarsh Valley were because I don't believe I've ever talked about them on here or to you. Secondly, Ross's contribution to Whitemarsh Valley might be more complicated than you have ever realized and what really happened there with Ross might be indicated to some extent by that example of Ross claiming 27 holes at Aronimink when we all know only 18 were ever built (of course Ross did do drawings for the third nine that was never built which the club has).
I have Ross's plans for changes to Whitemarsh Valley but interestingly those Ross drawings came to us in that box of William Flynn's entire career drawings that were found in a barn in Bucks Co. where they had been for over fifty years. It would seem that Whitemarsh Valley must have hired Ross to draw some proposed changes but instead decided to go with William Flynn and that is probably why Ross's drawings for Whitemarsh Valley ended up in that box in that barn in Bucks Co containing almost all Flynn's career drawings.
That is also how we found Raynor's whole course design drawing for The Creek Club which Flynn made some changes to around 1926-1929!
Here are two articles from the Philadelphia Inquirer. The first article is from 4/22/1919 and the second from 12/3/1919.
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No mention in the pamphlet of either White Bear Yacht Club or Minneapolis Golf Club, both of which are officially credited as Ross redesigns by the respective clubs. (Also, no reference to Cloquet Country Club near Duluth, which calls itself a Ross -- original 9, anyway -- without any evidence that I'm aware of.)
Rick
William Watson designed WBYC and Tom Bendelow designed Minneapolis.
Tom, you may be thinking of Edina Country Club when you mention Bendelow. He designed Edina, while Minneapolis GC credits Willie Park, Jr., for its original layout. Ross did a redesign and re-routing of Minneapolis GC in 1919. Bendelow also did some minor adjustments to William Watson's original Minikahda layout before Ross came in to do a redesign in 1916.
I'm curious why Ross would include Minikahda on his list, but not Minneapolis, when they both seem to be similar re-design projects.
It's also curious that Ross includes Interlachen, which was also designed by William Watson and redesigned by Ross in 1919, and Northland, which he redesigned in 1927, but not WBYC.
The WBYC club history book does not mention William Watson laying out the original course; in fact, it credits Ross for designing the original nine that opened in 1912, though that could certainly be erroneous, as the club's records seem to have been lost in the 1938 clubhouse fire. But there doesn't seem to be any doubt in the minds of WBYC members that Ross redesigned the course when it expanded to 18-holes sometime after additional land was purchased in 1914. So even if Watson did do the original 9, I wonder why Ross didn't put it on his list after the redesign? Maybe he made distinctions on redesigns, depending on how much the course was changed after he was done with it.
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No mention in the pamphlet of either White Bear Yacht Club or Minneapolis Golf Club, both of which are officially credited as Ross redesigns by the respective clubs. (Also, no reference to Cloquet Country Club near Duluth, which calls itself a Ross -- original 9, anyway -- without any evidence that I'm aware of.)
Rick
William Watson designed WBYC and Tom Bendelow designed Minneapolis.
Tom, you may be thinking of Edina Country Club when you mention Bendelow. He designed Edina, while Minneapolis GC credits Willie Park, Jr., for its original layout. Ross did a redesign and re-routing of Minneapolis GC in 1919. Bendelow also did some minor adjustments to William Watson's original Minikahda layout before Ross came in to do a redesign in 1916.
I'm curious why Ross would include Minikahda on his list, but not Minneapolis, when they both seem to be similar re-design projects.
It's also curious that Ross includes Interlachen, which was also designed by William Watson and redesigned by Ross in 1919, and Northland, which he redesigned in 1927, but not WBYC.
The WBYC club history book does not mention William Watson laying out the original course; in fact, it credits Ross for designing the original nine that opened in 1912, though that could certainly be erroneous, as the club's records seem to have been lost in the 1938 clubhouse fire. But there doesn't seem to be any doubt in the minds of WBYC members that Ross redesigned the course when it expanded to 18-holes sometime after additional land was purchased in 1914. So even if Watson did do the original 9, I wonder why Ross didn't put it on his list after the redesign? Maybe he made distinctions on redesigns, depending on how much the course was changed after he was done with it.
Rick:
These threads explore WBYC and Minneapolis
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,41434.0/
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,41398.0/
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No mention in the pamphlet of either White Bear Yacht Club or Minneapolis Golf Club, both of which are officially credited as Ross redesigns by the respective clubs. (Also, no reference to Cloquet Country Club near Duluth, which calls itself a Ross -- original 9, anyway -- without any evidence that I'm aware of.)
Rick
William Watson designed WBYC and Tom Bendelow designed Minneapolis.
Tom, you may be thinking of Edina Country Club when you mention Bendelow. He designed Edina, while Minneapolis GC credits Willie Park, Jr., for its original layout. Ross did a redesign and re-routing of Minneapolis GC in 1919. Bendelow also did some minor adjustments to William Watson's original Minikahda layout before Ross came in to do a redesign in 1916.
I'm curious why Ross would include Minikahda on his list, but not Minneapolis, when they both seem to be similar re-design projects.
It's also curious that Ross includes Interlachen, which was also designed by William Watson and redesigned by Ross in 1919, and Northland, which he redesigned in 1927, but not WBYC.
The WBYC club history book does not mention William Watson laying out the original course; in fact, it credits Ross for designing the original nine that opened in 1912, though that could certainly be erroneous, as the club's records seem to have been lost in the 1938 clubhouse fire. But there doesn't seem to be any doubt in the minds of WBYC members that Ross redesigned the course when it expanded to 18-holes sometime after additional land was purchased in 1914. So even if Watson did do the original 9, I wonder why Ross didn't put it on his list after the redesign? Maybe he made distinctions on redesigns, depending on how much the course was changed after he was done with it.
Rick, the we've discussed this to death on the WBYC thread...where the course historian caome on the site and said WBYC had an original 9 by watson in 1910, but that nine was lost and ross did 9 in 1912 and the next 9 in 1915. Maybe Ross just didnt include every design in that pamphlet...or maybe the person he assigned the task missed one or two courses...but whatever the excuse, I think Tom places far too much emphasis on that document and other "omissions" than he should. he can;'t prove that any of watson's nine exists...especially when the course tells him that nine was lost. he can't prove that ross didn't design the course to my or the club's satisfaction. It m akes MUCH more sense in view of ALL the evidence that Ross designed or re-designed WBYC and that none of watson's work still remains.
It also certainly looks like a Ross.
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I just spent the last four hours or so reading the two threads. When you take a week or two off here to do some work, you can miss a lot...
They were extremely interesting discussions, between the usual unnecessary potshots.
An observation and a question: In all the discussion of who did what at WBYC, the possible contributions of Tom Vardon are more or less dismissed as unimportant or irrelevant, but the man could design a little. I've played three of his courses: The University of Minnesota Bolstad Course (1929), which is built on terrain not that dissimilar to WBYC, and has some outstanding holes, though not the budget to maintain them as optimally as one might wish; Eau Claire Country Club, which Dan Kelly and I played at John Conley's suggestion, and thoroughly enjoyed as a wooded, hilly classic-era gem; and my home course, Stillwater Country Club (1924), which definitely demands some deeper study. I'll try to do a "My Home Course" one of these days. But I've seen enough of Vardon's work to believe he might have had significant input into WBYC's design.
The question: Where does the information come from that Tom Bendelow designed Minneapolis Golf Club, and has the club membership been informed?
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I've been away from this site for a while. It is interesting that the first post I check on (this one about Ross) had a lot to say about Rogell (originally Phoenix GC?). I met a friend of mine last Sunday and we played Rogell. We knew it was a Ross course, but we could see so many changes (and opportunities for restoration).
Where might we find an original routing or course map? There wasn't one posted in the clubhouse. I'd be interested to see what the original routing, greens and bunkering looked like.
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What was/is Homestead, in Spring Lake, NJ? Pat Mucci? Phil Young, does this have anything to do with Tillinghast's Spring Lake GC of today?
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Rich
I was wrong about Minneapolis GC. Bendelow was engaged before Park, and I mistakenly thought it was the other way around.
In 9/1916 it was reported (American Golfer): "Tom Bendelow, the Chicago expert, has been engaged to lay out 27 holes for the new Minneapolis GC at Golden Valley. Elwood Queen, assistant to George Sargent at Interlachen, has been engaged as professional. A temporary 9 holes was opened last month."
In 12/1916 it was reported (AG): "The Minneapolis GC has decided to abandon the property on which it had an option at Golden Valley and has purchased a 500-acre tract at Richmond. Willy Park will lay out the course."
For some reason Park never listed the course as one of his designs (see his list below circa 1922-23), which led me to believe there was a change in direction. I still think that is a possibility considering the thoroughness of Park's list. An interesting note, MGC hired William Clark as their new professional in March of 1917. Clark was a pretty good golf architect in his right, designing golf courses in the Midwest and Florida.
The temporary nine at Golden Valley became GVCC, and was remodeled and expanded by Tillinghast.
As far as Ross and MGC, the Ross Society, Klein and Whitten do not list Minneapolis, but strangely the late Pete Jones did list it as an original design in 1920. Jones devoted years of research into compiling a list of Ross golf courses and was consider the authority on his work for the Ross Society before he passed about a decade ago. I'm not sure why MGC does not appear on the official list today. The fact that Ross himself did not list it makes me wonder how comprehensive his work was there, if in fact he was involved.
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Tom MacWood:
Thanks for those articles in your post #50 on Whitemarsh Valley and the original Overbrook and Aronimink courses (both NLE). They seem to be another good example why researchers on the architectural evolutions of golf courses should not exclusively depend on newspaper articles for architectural evolution facts, particularly before the fact of an architect actually completing something for a golf course (because he in fact may not have done what was reported before the fact). It's always best to compare and contrast that kind of newspaper reporting with the records of the golf clubs in question.
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TEP
I think you should read the second article a little more closely, it says the work is nearing completion. If you have something against newspaper articles perhaps you will appreciated this magazine article from Golf Illustrated (2/1920) that confirms the two newspaper reports.
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/GolfIllustrated/1920/gi125r.pdf
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Rich
I don't think anyone is dismissing T. Vardon, but clearly Watson is the one who has been give the short shrift relatively speaking.
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What was/is Homestead, in Spring Lake, NJ? Pat Mucci? Phil Young, does this have anything to do with Tillinghast's Spring Lake GC of today?
Doug,
It was across the street from Spring Lake,
I believe there was a restaurant, Tony Yanadi's Homestead, associated with the course.
It's a NLE.
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Tom:
I'm not sure what that article you just linked has to do with anything pertinent to this particular thread but anyway.
I have nothing against newspaper articles, I just don't like to depend on them as a primary or sole source of information about what actually happened with the architecture of any golf course. They are helpful but I tend to think the contemporaneous administrative records of the clubs themselves are the best sources of information. I realize you don't feel that way though and perhaps because you never seem to use or seek golf club administrative records as your source of information and when it is presented to you it seems like you are instinctively suspect of it or tend to make a mockery of it as you've done with Merion and Myopia and even Pine Valley. I feel the reason you tend to do that is you've personally seen so little of it yourself because you don't seem to want to establish personal relationships with these clubs. Over the years you have given your reasons why you've chosen to do it that way but of course you know I don't agree with your approach and I never have.
We all go about architectural research in different ways I'm sure and you and I apparently go about it quite differently. And I do understand you think your way is better than mine but I have always felt my way is better than yours.
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Hold me closer tiny dancer......Count the headlights on the highway...
SING IT baby!
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TEP
I will assist you...the December 1919 Philadelphia Inquirer article confirmed what the April 1919 article reported was going to take place:
"Last Spring, Donald Ross spent several days at both clubs going over the links for the purpose of suggesting certain changes, refining the property in a golf sense. At Whitemarsh he plotted revolutionary alterations from the eleventh to the fifteenth holes inclusive, and made slight changes in a number of others. Practically all of the tees are being improves and the first is being greatly enlarged. The work is nearing completion will be finished by Spring."
And the Golf Illustrated reported this in February 1920. "Meantime one club in particular, Whitemarsh Valley, is doing all kinds of things to shift its map for the coming season. No Man's Land of the war, didn't have much on Whitemarsh now. Huge steam shovels and scoops are picking up sections of it bodily and placing them elsewhere. Creeks are being filled in here and there, trees set in elbows out in the fairway to make elbow holes, greens moved over two or three widths, or banked up or terraced, yawning traps made more yawning or shallower, and, in fact, nearly every hole is getting a thorough raking over."
Clearly Ross re-designed the course in 1919 despite your interpretation of what you found in the box.
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Tom MacWood:
Thanks for the newspaper account education. ;) Did Golf Illustrated underline whole paragraphs for that purpose too. ;)
I think, like a lot of people on here, I have seen too many posts and opinions by you that are prefaced by something like; "My research shows..." or "I checked and it shows that...." and it's passed off by you as a virtual fact. In my opinion, those kinds of things are nothing more than your opinion like anyone else's opinion, and not much more. As I've always said, you are a very competent and productive researcher; I have just never thought your analyses of things has been in the same ballpark, but everyone is entitled to their own opinions, right?
After all this is a discussion group! :)
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Rich
I was wrong about Minneapolis GC. Bendelow was engaged before Park, and I mistakenly thought it was the other way around.
In 9/1916 it was reported (American Golfer): "Tom Bendelow, the Chicago expert, has been engaged to lay out 27 holes for the new Minneapolis GC at Golden Valley. Elwood Queen, assistant to George Sargent at Interlachen, has been engaged as professional. A temporary 9 holes was opened last month."
In 12/1916 it was reported (AG): "The Minneapolis GC has decided to abandon the property on which it had an option at Golden Valley and has purchased a 500-acre tract at Richmond. Willy Park will lay out the course."
For some reason Park never listed the course as one of his designs (see his list below circa 1922-23), which led me to believe there was a change in direction. I still think that is a possibility considering the thoroughness of Park's list. An interesting note, MGC hired William Clark as their new professional in March of 1917. Clark was a pretty good golf architect in his right, designing golf courses in the Midwest and Florida.
The temporary nine at Golden Valley became GVCC, and was remodeled and expanded by Tillinghast.
As far as Ross and MGC, the Ross Society, Klein and Whitten do not list Minneapolis, but strangely the late Pete Jones did list it as an original design in 1920. Jones devoted years of research into compiling a list of Ross golf courses and was consider the authority on his work for the Ross Society before he passed about a decade ago. I'm not sure why MGC does not appear on the official list today. The fact that Ross himself did not list it makes me wonder how comprehensive his work was there, if in fact he was involved.
My dad just joined Minneapolis GC and I was planning on taking pictures sometime in the next week before I move back to Florida. I did see in the clubhouse they have 2 sets of blueprints framed together, one being the original Park design and the second the Ross. Based on the change in layout (the Clubhouse was moved by Ross) I would say it's almost all a Ross course (in other words I don't think more than a few Park holes were kept.) I'll try and get a picture of the blueprints as well.
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For some reason Park never listed the course as one of his designs (see his list below circa 1922-23), which led me to believe there was a change in direction. I still think that is a possibility considering the thoroughness of Park's list. An interesting note, MGC hired William Clark as their new professional in March of 1917. Clark was a pretty good golf architect in his right, designing golf courses in the Midwest and Florida.
Thanks for the update and continued investigation Tom. As I think you know, Clark was the original professional and designer of my course, Oak Ridge, which is about 3 miles from Minneapolis. He signed on as the pro and designed the first nine in 1921 and the second in 1940 - remaining as the pro the entire time. I speculate in my write up of the course that Clark had some experience building at least one of the recent courses in the area. Perhaps it was Minneapolis.
http://golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/oak-ridge-country-club
I remember you mentioning Clark as the architect of courses in Florida but I have never found any. The only course I could find is a muni in Minneapolis called Francis A. Gross which is a terrific course kept in Muni condition.
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Jason
Here is course near Orlando credited to Clark. I've seen it referred to as Mt. Plymouth CC and also St. Andrews Golf Club. It has very interesting look to it IMO. The article is from American Golfer March 1927 and the picture is from AG December 1932.
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Jason
Here is course near Orlando credited to Clark. I've seen it referred to as Mt. Plymouth CC and also St. Andrews Golf Club. It has very interesting look to it IMO. The article is from American Golfer March 1927 and the picture is from AG December 1932.
Thanks Tom.
I wonder if it is the same William Clark. The article says he is "of Chicago." In 1927 Clark was serving at the Professional at my club in Minnesota. Contemporaneous writings confirm he was here.
Clark could originally be from Chicago or the article could be wrong.
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Jason
I don't know if that is the same William Clark or not. I checked the Golfers Yearbook in 1926 and the pro at Oak Ridge was listed as OW Chapmin. Here are couple of articles from American Golfer in 1913 that mention Clark redesigning the course at Omaha Field. He was the pro at OFC before coming to Minneapolis. He is mentioned on page 269 in the first one and p. 357 in the second.
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/AmericanGolfer/1913/ag93o.pdf
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/AmericanGolfer/1913/ag94o.pdf
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Sean - I believe The Phoenix Club was the original membership for Franklin Hills CC that moved out to the suburbs in 1926 when the course was built. I could be wrong but it seems I read this somewhere.
DD
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Jason
I don't know if that is the same William Clark or not. I checked the Golfers Yearbook in 1926 and the pro at Oak Ridge was listed as OW Chapmin. Here are couple of articles from American Golfer in 1913 that mention Clark redesigning the course at Omaha Field. He was the pro at OFC before coming to Minneapolis. He is mentioned on page 269 in the first one and p. 357 in the second.
Thanks Tom
Given it is the correct middle initial, it must be the same guy in the articles. This winter I may ask our superintendant to show me the diary he has shared before to see who OW Chapmin is. I do not remember that name but it has been four years since I reviewed them.
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Here is another article.
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Hold me closer tiny dancer......Count the headlights on the highway...
SING IT baby!
Tom,
We're talking about Ross, not Emmett.
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Here's another clue to the White Bear Yacht Club mystery, though a frustrating one. This passage is taken from a history of St. Paul's Town and Country Golf Club, written in 1930 by William F. Peet, an original member of that club. T&C has been playing at the same location continuously since 1893, and Pete was describing club members' efforts to spread the game of golf to other locations in the Minneapolis-St. Paul area:
"In 1911, L.P. Ordway started golf in connection with the White Bear Yacht Club. With his usual vision, he had bought forty acres North of the railroad track to protect the rear of Dellwood and probably in the back of his mind to provide a playground of some sort for the Yacht Club. It was the God awfulest forty you ever saw, full of hills, valleys, stumps and underbrush, with absolutely no promise of a golf links, but it served as a starter. We bought the Arkell seventy acres adjoining on the East and subsequently eighty more North of the Stillwater road and all of us lived at the lake went to work to raise the very substantial sum needed to make this wild and unpromising land a real golf links. Billy Mitchell, excuse me, Attorney General Mitchell, contributed a lot of his time and a very large amount of his money, subsequently recovered, to this enterprise, and the old Yacht Club sweat blood for years to finance and maintain it. We are all familiar with the results, the sportiest and one of the best links in the Northwest, worked over, prayed over and put to bed every night for the past seventeen years by good, old Tom Vardon."
Elsewhere in the T&C club history, Peet describes the efforts of some of the club members to establish what would have been St. Paul's first municipal golf course at Como Park. Peet writes that they "got Watson, the great links expert, to lay it our and blue print it." The St. Paul city council turned down the proposal, but it does establish a connection between those who started golf at WBYC and William Watson, who had already designed Interlachen and Minikahda. The account also seems to give a lot of credit to Tom Vardon for the course as it existed in 1930, but it doesn't specifically say who designed WBYC.
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"Tom,
We're talking about Ross, not Emmett."
Doug:
Actually I was talking about that great hidden gem of a golf course architect, Elton John.
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I'm pretty sure Ross didn't come to the States until 1899.
I played in the Piqua(OH) 100 year anniversary in 1997.
I was looking for something else when I stumbled across this thread.
Ross did come to the States in 1899 (I looked it up). Piqua has been there since 1896. Ross just made some modifications to the course in 1920.
It is now called a Ross course even though he just altered it. I think someone else altered it further after that as well. I'd imagine a lot of courses call themselves a Ross even though his work is just part of the equation.
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Tom MacWood,
I'd appreciate it if you could email me anything you happen to come across on Mountain Ridge (1929), a Ross course that remains mostly intact.
Thanks