Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: PThomas on August 26, 2009, 04:45:58 PM
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Tom D mentioned in the WBYC that he thought they were one of the top 10..
..so i thought it might be fun to try and guess what the other 9 might be...Tom might not be able to confirm, but i thought it would still be an interesting thread
surely Crystal Downs, Augusta, Oakland Hills, Oakmont....
Kinglsey Club?
others?
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Surely Ballyneal must fit in there somewhere....
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Brookside in Canton.
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Much of the answer depends on how the greens are maintained and what speed they are normally kept at.
For US Open qualifying, our course, Admirals Cove cut and rolled and they had a speed of 14.
That was severe
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Prairie Dunes?
Winged Foot?
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Brookside in Canton.
i too was thinking of of Brookside Dean...
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Lost Dunes
Ross Course at French Lick
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Severe denotes negative, IMHO. My nominations are the toughest, most challenging I've seen to date.
Pasatiempo- Huckaby and I have talked countless times about this. If they run above 10, they are unbelievably challenging.
Stone Eagle- See above, although I haven't seen them run much faster than 10. So much going on!
Engineers- 1 and 17 are amazing!
Rustic Canyon- Such a great mix. Amongst my favorite sets. when they run fast, it really makes better players scrtach their heads after walking off 18. They can't figure out how they shot such a high score when the course seemed to play so easy from tee to green.
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After playing Grosse Ile on Monday, those were absolutely SEVERE (and I don't mean that in a negative sense because I LIKED THEM!).
Severe because there were MANY instances when being off the green in front was a BETTER than actually hitting the green in regulation. Pics coming soon!
PS: I am proud to say I avoided any 3+ putts though!
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I reject the word "severe" as it is applied to any of the courses mentioned.
Here is the definition of the word from the Random House Unabridged.
1. harsh; unnecessarily extreme: severe criticism; severe laws.
2. serious or stern in manner or appearance: a severe face.
3. grave; critical: a severe illness.
4. rigidly restrained in style, taste, manner, etc.; simple, plain, or austere.
5. causing discomfort or distress by extreme character or conditions, as weather, cold, or heat; unpleasantly violent, as rain or wind, or a blow or shock.
6. difficult to endure, perform, fulfill, etc.: a severe test of his powers.
7. rigidly exact, accurate, or methodical: severe standards.
Maybe #6 comes close to applying but the word severe was hardly at the top of my mind when I saw the greens at Crystal Downs, Prairie Dunes, Winged Foot, Lost Dunes, Kingsley CLub and Ballyneal.
I was thinking more along the lines of fun, interesting, challenging, hard, perplexing, wild, unique, etc...
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to both Davids:
I am guessing that Tom D meant "severe" not as in harsh or unnecessarily extreme, but as in fun, challenging, complex, etc...
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Of the ones I've played, gotta go with:
Pasatiempo
Indian Canyon
Lakota Canyon
A distant 4th,
RCCC
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to both Davids:
I am guessing that Tom D meant "severe" not as in harsh or unnecessarily extreme, but as in fun, challenging, complex, etc...
Pasatiempo, RSG's
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Fox Chapel
Any Travis course at high speed (Cherry Hill and Lookout Point in Ontario come to mind)
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Here's one vote for Sebonack.
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Engineers- 1 and 17 are amazing!
My first thought as well.
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If Oregon contributes it would be Tetherow.
I would agree on Crystal Downs, Oakmont, Ballyneal, Pasatiempo
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The 10 most difficult and interesting sets of greens are.....
Ballyneal
Lost Dunes
Pine Valley
Oakmont
Augusta National
Pasatiempo
Crystal Downs
Prairie Dunes
Morfontaine Valliere
Engineers
This combined groups makes for some interesting hole locations....
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Adam:
That's a very good list -- nothing on there I would disagree with, though I have not seen the short course at Morfontaine.
Other candidates:
Oakland Hills (HAS to be on in the top ten somewhere)
Somerset Hills
White Bear Yacht Club
Rolling Rock Club, PA
Deepdale
Hollywood, NJ
And of course, National Golf Links, while maybe not being in the top ten for a 1-18 sum total, certainly has a handful of THE most severe greens of any course in the world.
It's very apparent that there are not too many modern courses nominated for this list, other than my own. Is there really NO ONE else building difficult greens anymore?
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Tom,
I would put Jim Engs greens up there too....
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Is there really NO ONE else building difficult greens anymore?
Cupp/Kite???
;)
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The Castle Course has to win this hands down.
Anthony
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Tom D,
I think that there are a lot of moderns with very difficult grens by numerous architects. But top 10 was the question. Your course at Stonewall is one (New).
A number of Fazios seem to as well, including the one I play at.
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Adam:
That's a very good list -- nothing on there I would disagree with, though I have not seen the short course at Morfontaine.
Other candidates:
Oakland Hills (HAS to be on in the top ten somewhere)
Somerset Hills
White Bear Yacht Club
Rolling Rock Club, PA
Deepdale
Hollywood, NJ
And of course, National Golf Links, while maybe not being in the top ten for a 1-18 sum total, certainly has a handful of THE most severe greens of any course in the world.
It's very apparent that there are not too many modern courses nominated for this list, other than my own. Is there really NO ONE else building difficult greens anymore?
Tom
I agree about Oakland Hills. Running at double digits they are comfortably the most daring and troublesome greens I have seen.
Somebody mentioned Grosse Ile. I have always thought of them as baby Oakland Hills greens. They are certainly in that style and there are a handful which are very tough, but not to the degree of OH. This set still comfortably one of the best I have seen.
I thought Rolling Green's greens were very severe - though one dimensional in terms of keeping the ball below the hole.
Ciao
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Kalen:
I have seen three Jim Engh courses, but I wouldn't put the greens contouring on any of them in the same list as any of these.
I guess a lot of the question hinges on how you define "severe," as David Kelly pointed out earlier. I have no interest in nominating a list of severe courses that are stupid to play, so I was sticking with Adam's criteria: "difficult and interesting" to me means greens that are very challenging to read and to putt and for short game play, but at a scale conducive to good golf. Six-foot tiers and the like are not part of that discussion.
Sean L:
The New Course at Stonewall would be my third choice of my own courses ... not quite as severe to putt as Lost Dunes, and not quite as wild as Ballyneal, though maybe harder to putt on.
Sean A:
Bruce Hepner told me the same thing about Grosse Ile. Alas, I have never seen it.
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No none has mentioned any of Mike Strantz's work yet.
Tom,
Does this thread relate back to the "Going to the Precipice" thread? Does 'severe' mean not going over the precipice?
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Carl:
Yes, there is very much of a precipice between "great" greens [Augusta National] and "goofy" greens [exactly the same greens as Augusta National built by a modern architect]. Where that precipice is depends on the golfer, and whether he carries a long putter, among other variables.
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Tom--
I have not played Oakland Hills or Hollywood and hopefully I will fix that in short order. I gave thought to all of the other courses on your list and they are all worthy, they weren't the first that popped into my mind. I'll go further to say that 2 and 3 at Rolling Rock may be the two best consecutive greens that I've seen.
You definitely need to see Morfontaine Valliere. Those greens, particularly 1, 3, 4, 5, and 8 are real classics.
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Saucon Valley's Old Course belongs up there. lots of variety: slopes, tiers, multi-sections and even a Biarritz to the par 4 18th.
In addition, 4 years ago they gassed them and planted 100% bent. Played them right before the Women's Open and they were as good as anything i ever putted on.
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Here's one vote for Sebonack.
Make that two.
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Yale's greens are probably the most confounding I've ever seen. Not only do the huge undulations make them tough their flatter areas contain innumerable little subtle breaks. I played it yesterday in the CSGA Four-Ball Championship and my partner and I completely misread five or six putts, a couple of which ended up breaking completely the opposite way than we thought they'd break.
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Do tell, Tim. Was 11 one of them?
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Fenway and Mountain Ridge should be added to the top 10
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Can't count mountain ridge until they re-build the 18th, it is unputtable
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I would also nominate Seminole if purely on a speed and slope basis. Running at an 8 or a 9 they would not be too diffucult but they never do!!!!!
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Brookside in Canton.
i too was thinking of of Brookside Dean...
I will throw in a thrice vote for Brookside. A stern test of putting every time out.
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I'll second (or third) Pasatiempo for a vote, but closer to home I'm suprised no one has mentioned Barnbougle Dunes. Only because they're fescue do they remain so playable.
We've also just made a pretty wild set at RACV's course at Healesville. Not of the same scale as Barnbougle but wild nevertheless.
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Canton Brookside & Oyster Harbor
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National Golf Club of Canada
Redtail Golf Course
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Can't count mountain ridge until they re-build the 18th, it is unputtable
Bill,
What's the title of this thread ? ? ?
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Pasatiempo,Lakewood,Broadmoor East,Pinehurst 2,Oakmont
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Does this thread relate back to the "Going to the Precipice" thread? Does 'severe' mean not going over the precipice?
Carl,
Dead on, I think. Looking at a few of the more popular ones on the list; I'd say that they all do a great job of tip-toeing extremism. This is what makes them so great, IMO.
#13 at Kingsley goes a little overboard, especially with a back left pin. But as a collection and in comparison to the greens before and after it I think it fits very well.
#13 at Crystal has a certain element of "precipice crossing" to it, especially on the back right pin. But 12 and 14 balance it out.
Pasatiempo--in general--could certainly get out of hand if they kept it faster than they do. I four putted the 8th green, and nearly four putted on 16 when I landed my ball on the back tier when the pin was middle. But again, as a collection, fun and challenging.
I think in this particular debate, it is beneficial to look and see if any singular element of a collection of 18 greens is way off the charts crazy. Then, if the answer is yes, see what other features that other greens have to offer are. In the case of the 13th at Kingsley; is every green like that? No. Is there a good collection of really severe greens and just "normal contoured" greens? Sort of, yeah. So is it a severe collection? Yes. But fun and challenging as well.
The most extreme contours in all of San Antonio are here on the base at Randolph Oaks. They keep them at about 7 feet--shaggy bermuda. But due to the extreme contour they are fun fun fun. Other than the greens, it's a cow pasture. But it's proof that slightly extreme and almost over the top greens can make any piece of land exciting.
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Homer post:
#2 looking from the back toward the fairway--severe green on a 533 par 5
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm66/chriscupit/greenslope58-1.jpg)
Side view of #13 The top half can scream back to front as well. Actually had some competitors putt from the back fringe off the green in last year's Atlanta Amateur :o Greens were too fast but to putt off the green was not a good stroke.
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm66/chriscupit/13_green06-1.jpg)
Another view looking from the back right of the green to the tee. If your in the half pipe (long) and are putting to that flag, good luck.
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm66/chriscupit/G7LS638352.jpg)
Looking back on the 479 yard 18th. Hard to see the severity but there is acyually a helping back left back stop designed to help slow up long iron/hybrid approaches.
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm66/chriscupit/18green.jpg)
Doesn't look like much but there is a lot going on in that 4200 square foot green. Another one you can "de-green" it on.
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm66/chriscupit/G7LS644356.jpg)
Obviously I am biased but the severity works and I think the complexes are some of the neatest in Atlanta.
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I am surprised nobody has mentioned TOC just for the sheer size of the greens. While the greens are generally not wild or quick, it isn't often that a golfer can several putts over 100 feet and there is enough movement to make many of these confounding.
Ciao
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I think Pinehurst #2 is by far the toughest that I have played. Pinehurst #8 was pretty challenging too!
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I think Pinehurst #2 is by far the toughest that I have played. Pinehurst #8 was pretty challenging too!
Morgan
Is that down to the greens, surrounds or combination of both? I don't think putting on them is terribly severe - once you are on the green!
Ciao
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I am surprised nobody has mentioned TOC just for the sheer size of the greens. While the greens are generally not wild or quick, it isn't often that a golfer can several putts over 100 feet and there is enough movement to make many of these confounding.
Ciao
I had been thinking the same thing. And those greens would be really severe if they ever did run at 12/13.
I'm not surprised that the vast majority of responses have been for US courses (is the Castle course the only other British course mentioned in this thread and Morfontaine the only European?), since only in the US is there an obsession with really quick greens and almost any green is puttable at the right speed.
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I am surprised nobody has mentioned TOC just for the sheer size of the greens. While the greens are generally not wild or quick, it isn't often that a golfer can several putts over 100 feet and there is enough movement to make many of these confounding.
Ciao
I had been thinking the same thing. And those greens would be really severe if they ever did run at 12/13.
I'm not surprised that the vast majority of responses have been for US courses (is the Castle course the only other British course mentioned in this thread and Morfontaine the only European?), since only in the US is there an obsession with really quick greens and almost any green is puttable at the right speed.
Mark
Very true. Some American clubs (and golfers) tend to equate good greens with fast greens while British golfers equate good greens with true roll, firmness and some speed. Of course, many of these greens were never designed with double digit green speeds in mind so they shouldn't really be that severe at proper speeds. Mind you, like the wind velocity, I find many Americans over-estimate the speed of greens and rarely hear Brits even mention a stimp #. I can recall being at Kiawah and thinking they were running at 9ish (a good and sensible speed). Yet I overheard some golfers saying they were 11. For all the talk of very fast greens, I don't think I have ever played but a handful of rounds on what I thought were excessively fast greens, but that was when I was hanging around country clubs. In all of my visits back to the States these past 10 years, not once I have I come across really fast greens. I doubt I played any that were running at 10. The best I have come across these past dozen years are University of Michigan's with Merion a close second (Yeamans were very good too). In three visits they were the perfect blend of speed and firmness which accentuated the design of the greens.
Ciao
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Among the courses I've played, I would vote for Deepdale and Bayonne.
I'm normally a decent putter, but the size, slope and speed of the greens at Bayonne really drove me nuts. I hit the ball great all day and didn't break 90.
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I would second Bayonne and add Bear Creek (Denver) and Montclair Golf Club - Montclair has 36 greens with fabulous movement, a few of which are truly 'severe'
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It's very apparent that there are not too many modern courses nominated for this list, other than my own. Is there really NO ONE else building difficult greens anymore?
Tom D,
Would be correct to say most modern architects have in their mind 12+ on the stimpmeter as the correct speed for their greens? If that's true, that imposes a limiting factor on what they deem as appropriate amount of slope. The ODG, even if they had stimpmeters, could most likely not even conceive their greens would one day roll at that speed. Perhaps you have a different thought in your head.
BTW-I'd nominate Pinehurst #2 as being a confounding set of greens. Every time I walk off #18, I feel I have a case of vertigo.
It's like standing on the hood of a VW Beetle with a putter in your hand.
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Sean,
The Old Course would certainly be in my top ten for"severe:" greens
I think Tom brought up a great point...severe versus goofy...
what is the dividing line?
sometimes speed alone can tip the balance one way or the other and make the srchitect look like he was smoking crack!
I would be interested to read any comments from architects out there on where they feel the line into goofydom may have been crossed....but understand if they are reluctant to do so...
For wahat it is worth there are about three greens at Cuscowilla that in my opinion cross the line...sorry dont remember the hole numbers.
Of course that could be because I done know the course well enough to strategise around the greens...but they did seem rather silly.
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The set of greens at Grosse Ile certainly deserve to be listed. As the Superintendent, I am constantly questioned on pin locations. I always ask where the golfer was putting from. This is important information in deciding whether or not the hole location is fair. As with most Ross greens, Above the hole is death!
Setting yourself up in the right spot of the fairway to approach the green is key at Grosse Ile, as with most courses with severe surfaces.
The tenth green at Grosse Ile is one of the most severe surfaces I have seen.
Others:
Oakland Hills
Crystal Downs
NGLA
Meadowbrook - MI
Engineers
Winged Foot E&W
DD
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Sean,
The Old Course would certainly be in my top ten for"severe:" greens
I think Tom brought up a great point...severe versus goofy...
what is the dividing line?
sometimes speed alone can tip the balance one way or the other and make the srchitect look like he was smoking crack!
I would be interested to read any comments from architects out there on where they feel the line into goofydom may have been crossed....but understand if they are reluctant to do so...
For wahat it is worth there are about three greens at Cuscowilla that in my opinion cross the line...sorry dont remember the hole numbers.
Of course that could be because I done know the course well enough to strategise around the greens...but they did seem rather silly.
Micheal,
You pretty much hit the button on the head with this last one. I'd bet dollars to donuts whats one considers severe as opposed to goofy, and visa versa, is mostly in the eye of the beholder. The closest category that relates to this is quirk.
For many on here, some quirk is good, most not loved, especially "modern" quirk. Some severe greens are loved, but alot of modern severe greens are labeled "goofy". But thru the eyes of this beholder, I like it all. Quirk in all its forums, severe greens in all thier forms....just as long as thier is at least a halfway reasonable way to play the ball and get it in the hole.
All that being said , I guess this makes me a "big world theory" guy as I accept the challenge of an Engh green or anyone else who is building severe and challenging greens. At the end of the day, its all good fun and I look forward to playing all types!!
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The most severe greens I have seen were at Dismal River - some were just over the top with some hole locations allowing you only 10 degrees within the green from which to putt. Another Nicklaus course, North Palm Beach CC which is a muni and has some huge contours which the locals have found to be too severe.
Personally, I just came back from Ballyneal and I would not consider the greens to be severe - yes, they do have some very significant contours but the most severe contours are there on holes where you are taking a risk that must take into consideration the green contours.
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The set of greens at Grosse Ile certainly deserve to be listed. As the Superintendent, I am constantly questioned on pin locations. I always ask where the golfer was putting from. This is important information in deciding whether or not the hole location is fair. As with most Ross greens, Above the hole is death!
Setting yourself up in the right spot of the fairway to approach the green is key at Grosse Ile, as with most courses with severe surfaces.
The tenth green at Grosse Ile is one of the most severe surfaces I have seen.
Others:
Oakland Hills
Crystal Downs
NGLA
Meadowbrook - MI
Engineers
Winged Foot E&W
DD
Dan
Grosse Ile's greens aren't too bad if you stay below the hole. Even pin high is a killer on many greens. That said, rolling 11 on the stimp would make those greens very harsh. I know they used to get the greens flying many years ago, but in my recent visits they had thankfully slowed them down - is this still the case? Other than 10, which is nasty wicked if the hole is down front, 5 and 13 can be brutal. I don't know how many times I watched guys putt into the rocks on 13. Before they lifted the front of 9 it was much harsher, akin to 10. Other greens which are ferocious if caught in the wrong spot are 14 and 17. I watched an English mate of mine putt off 14 and end up down the valley with a 40 yard chip. I tried to tell him to take the putt way left coming across the green from the right, but he swore it would turn left, not right. What a goof.
All that said, two of my favourite greens are 7 and 16. Both are far more severe than they look especially 16. It is great to watch guys at the front of the green, just getting used to keeping the ball between themselves and the hole, give the ball a whack and watch it zoom 15 feet past the hole - this is a very clever green indeed.
For sure, Grosse Ile has one of he best sets of greens I have seen, as good if not better than a great many of the big guns. Take good care of them eh!
Ciao
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Do tell, Tim. Was 11 one of them?
Tom--
The 11th had one of the more subtly contoured greens on the course, but it was still challenging enough for me. I consider myself to be a pretty decent reader of greens, and I overplayed the break on my 30 footer by about a foot on that hole.
On the 13th, my partner had a 12 foot putt that we both agreed was a right-edge putt. He rolled it on his line and the ball missed 8 inches to the right. Maddening.
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Can't count mountain ridge until they re-build the 18th, it is unputtable
Bill,
What's the title of this thread ? ? ?
I agree with what Tom D wrote:
I guess a lot of the question hinges on how you define "severe," as David Kelly pointed out earlier. I have no interest in nominating a list of severe courses that are stupid to play, so I was sticking with Adam's criteria: "difficult and interesting" to me means greens that are very challenging to read and to putt and for short game play, but at a scale conducive to good golf.
So since I think the 18th at MR is stupid, I take the course off my list.
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Sean - We try to have a daily speed around 10 - 10.5. This is some cases can be too fast, especially with our goal of keeping them as firm as possible. The membership prefers the speed to be as fast as possible, which IMO takes some of the fun out of putting them.
The greens at Grosse Ile are all exciting. As you stated, as a set, they can arguably be as good as there is. We have been expanding them out slowly since I got here, which has added some interesting pin locations in the corners. Our efforts have been well received by the membership. Discussion of rebuilding #13 comes up occasionally, as the right side is unavailable for hole locations. I use a separate mower that is set a little higher and only roll the green when needed. This has worked well as the slope of #13 alone keeps the surface consistent with the others.
Great point about #16. That green has a lot of hidden movement in it where the others are very obvious. I love how Ross gives you a 240 yrd par three in #18 with the flattest green on the course.
My favorite green is #7. Wonderful contour and really fun to pick hole locations for the #1 handicap hole. Another favorite is #1. The green does a fine job of welcoming you to Grosse Ile!
DD
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I think Pinehurst #2 is by far the toughest that I have played. Pinehurst #8 was pretty challenging too!
Morgan
Is that down to the greens, surrounds or combination of both? I don't think putting on them is terribly severe - once you are on the green!
Ciao
Morgan:
Of the courses in the Pinehurst area, I've always thought that the greens at The National Golf Club (formerly Pinehurst National) were the most severe. Have you had the chance to play there?
Sean:
I agree about the greens on No. 2. The greens alone are much less severe than the combnation of the greens plus the surrounds.
Dean
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FWIW,
While I absolutly love them and wouldn't change a thing, I've heard a few comments from a couple of GCA'ers who will remain nameless that some of the greens found at Pasatiempo are asburd when mowed at high speeds.
Once again....its all an "eye of the beholder" thing isn't it?
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Tom D,
Would be correct to say most modern architects have in their mind 12+ on the stimpmeter as the correct speed for their greens? If that's true, that imposes a limiting factor on what they deem as appropriate amount of slope. The ODG, even if they had stimpmeters, could most likely not even conceive their greens would one day roll at that speed. Perhaps you have a different thought in your head.
BTW-I'd nominate Pinehurst #2 as being a confounding set of greens. Every time I walk off #18, I feel I have a case of vertigo.
It's like standing on the hood of a VW Beetle with a putter in your hand.
Anthony:
I would never agree that 12+ is the "correct" speed for greens, on any course. I think anything over 10.5 to 11 is overkill, maybe okay for a three-day member-guest or club championship but NOT for day to day conditions.
But I think it's fair to say that most modern architects look at 12+ as being a speed which might happen on their greens, so they are forced to design flatter greens with that speed in mind. That's why most of the courses we are talking about are older courses whose designers (Ross, MacKenzie, et al.) NEVER envisioned 12+ as a possibility.
Only a crazy kid like me would ever design such severe greens in full understanding of modern green speeds. Then again, it was much easier for me to be careless about it on my earlier courses than it is today, when I'm dealing with clients who actually DO have the wherewithal and the connections to host a professional event. Back when I was building High Pointe, there was just no way it would ever make sense for them to get their greens really fast, so I could build in a lot of contour without fear. Nowadays, I have to keep the possibility of 12+ in mind; BUT at least my clients are the kind of people who have played Oakmont and Augusta and understand what severe greens are all about. [There was some discussion about Rock Creek and some of the players thinking the greens are too severe, but hell, Mr. Foley has been a non-resident member of Oakmont for 20 years, and Rock Creek is not severe compared to THAT.]
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Charlotte CC's greens are pretty amazing, with a few 3'+ fall-offs to back or side pods where if you land on the downslopes your ball will be propelled a long way. Alpine in NJ belongs on any list of severe greens, as it has an intense set of lightning fast sloped greens.
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Out of all the courses I have played, I would rate them in this order for having the greatest amount of movement in the greens:
1. Plainfield
2. Ballyneal
3. Chambers Bay
I don't think I have seen any green as ridiculous AND FUN(!!!) as the green on Plainfield's par 3, No 11. I can't wait to hear all the bitchin' and moanin' from the pros when they play it.
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Haven't been there in a few years, but I think I remember some of the Sawgrass greens having some real undulation.
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As already mentioned... The Castle Course is #1 for the courses I have played.
Stanwich, CT - big contours and always rolling fast (just heard they are replacing all 18 this year)
Baltusrol Upper, NJ - they say everything breaks away from the mountain, but when you know which way its going and its still 3-putt city!
(haven't played the lower, but more severe internal contour then WF, QR, Ridgewood, Fenway)
Others stick out: Old Mac, B Trails, and Winged Foot East/Carnoustie (may have been the 2 hardest courses I have ever played from just off the green)
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Fenway and Mountain Ridge should be added to the top 10
Pat, I've only played it once, but you have a seconding nomination on Fenway, albeit a necessarily meek one. They're not wildly contoured, but they're both beautifully and frustratingly confounding.
Shivas,
They may not be wildly contoured, but, they have a good deal of contour in them, and some are wildly contoured, like # 3 and # 5.
Bill Brightly,
If you stay below the hole, and it's very difficult to get above the hole on your approach, putting is not as challlenging as you indicate.
The club and the superintendent like firm and fast conditions.
If you haven't figured out that you need to be below the hole by the 5th hole ( 1st hole for keen observers), you probably won't figure it out by the 18th.
My last round was a drive, 3-iron 25 feet below the hole, two putt = par.
You have to err on the short side, but, that's universal.
Wait until you see the results of the green reclamation program.
Some truely incredible hole locations have been recaptured, on almost every hole.
The USGA Senior Amateur is being hosted there in 2012.
It's a wonderful course with wide fairways and incredible interesting putting surfaces and surrounds.
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Tom said
"... Only a crazy kid like me would ever design such severe greens in full understanding of modern green speeds. Then again, it was much easier for me to be careless about it on my earlier courses than it is today, when I'm dealing with clients who actually DO have the wherewithal and the connections to host a professional event. Back when I was building High Pointe, there was just no way it would ever make sense for them to get their greens really fast, so I could build in a lot of contour without fear. Nowadays, I have to keep the possibility of 12+ in mind; BUT at least my clients are the kind of people who have played Oakmont and Augusta and understand what severe greens are all about. ..."
Tom, At time you were doing Riverfront, do I assume that you assumed that there would never be a "big" event ever held there and thus no worry about highly contoured greens?
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Pat,
I know Mountain Ridge very well and think it is an excellent course, held back from greatness by the 18th green. Yes, there are pinnable loactions in the back half of the green, but it seems almost every time I play it the pin is in the front middle, and IMO, that is an unpinnable location. You either putt it in the hole or it rolls off the green, and I dont care what direction you miss from!
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I wish I had known that Rolling Rock has interesting/severe greens -- I was just up in that neck of the woods and would've made an effort to play R.R.! Is it a good course otherwise?
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I only played Riverfront once...but it's the only course I can remember leaving thinking that the greens might be too severe...I usually like them contoured and fun- Kingley's were a blast- but Riverfront knocked me silly.
Wonder if the contrast between a very flat course- Suffolk VA, not too many hills- and wildly contoured greens makes them seem even wilder?
Tom- How do Riverfront's greens stack up against your others?
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Charlotte CC's greens are pretty amazing, with a few 3'+ fall-offs to back or side pods where if you land on the downslopes your ball will be propelled a long way.
David, good call on CCC. Some very dramatic contours. But, generally, green speeds are kept in check. So they are typically difficult without being absurd. It will be interesting to see how they hold up in next year's women's Am.
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Bill (hands of stone) Brightly.
Front locations and mid green locations are only difficult if you get above 4 and 8 o'clock when the greens are at pace.
If you hit your approach or recovery above those markers you deserve to be punished.
I'm not saying that the green isn't a little too severe, I'm just saying that you have to approach it with caution, just like you do on a good number of holes.
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Carl:
I never worried about any of my courses hosting a big tournament until we were building Cape Kidnappers. Julian clearly had the money to host whatever he wanted.
Some of those earlier courses HAVE hosted events ... the Curtis Cup at Pacific Dunes, and the Philadelphia Open and Amateur at Stonewall, among others. All of those events worked out fine, because they respected the contours and did not get the greens ridiculously fast.
In reality, hosting a tournament is not usually a problem ... all you need is 4-6 different hole locations on each green which work at the highest speeds. The problem comes when you want to have "tournament" green speeds on an EVERYDAY basis, as some clubs insist now. In that case, the greens almost have to be flat and lifeless, or it's only a matter of time before you've got agronomic problems from the combination of stressed-out turf and concentrated traffic.
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Just played Prairie Dunes with Bill and Brian Doyle Murray. After having yet another shot repelled by another false front, I exclaimed: "This course has more false fronts than..." Brian filled in the blank: "than a Hooters Girls Swimsuit Competition".
Very severe, very fun. If they run over 11, I'd guess they'd be unputtable at times.
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Kelly:
High praise indeed. This makes me want to see Lederach all the more.
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Rory:
When I saw your name here, I thought you were going to nominate Lancaster. I didn't think of it for the top ten, but it would probably be second ten in my book. I remembered how severe some of the greens were (5 and 11 in particular), but some of the others (18) startled me this summer. I guess there are a handful that are not that steep, but not many!
Kelly:
That's a great email. Hope you have more chances to screw with that guy.
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Gentlemen:
I am shocked, shocked that Friars Head has not appeared on anyone's list! Their collection should be right up there among the best - the par-5, 7th as the poster child of greens within greens.
As to Fenway, I cut my golfing teeth there and playing there regularly up to age 30. I was one hell of a putter. That said, I am convinced the over stimulation from putting those greens for too many rounds in too short a period led to my coming down with "early onset yips!" I advise any parent to limit your golfing prodigy's exposure to greens like these.
Damn them to hell!