Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Ed Oden on July 07, 2009, 12:13:58 AM
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I'm talking doglegs approaching a 90 degree turn. Off the top of my head, the only one I can think of is #13 at ANGC. Surely there are others that fall into the "great hole" catagory. Are sharly doglegging holes among the most difficult to design? It seems few stand out as among the best holes on their course, much less among the best holes in golf.
Ed
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Ed
Part of your question relies on people liking sharp leggers. I think my tendency is to like the ones which offer a chance of cutting the corner or riding some contours around the corner - this usually means the dogleg can't be defined by trees. I do think its hard to design these holes well because what often happens is if a guy gets caught out of position on the tee he can only layup to the corner or just pop one over the turn - that isn't much fun.
The concept works well at Deal's 6th, Pennard's 10th and a host of other holes which tend to be short par 4s. There is the odd case like St Enodoc's 10th. I think it works well BECAUSE its so controversial from the tee. The second is where the legger contours kick in make the hole what it is - heroic without having to make a dangerous carry - the best kind of heroic in my mind.
Ciao
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This one's pretty good. Peninsula North 8th hole.
(http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj26/fingal_album/PeninsulaNorth8Acopy.jpg?t=1246947041)
351 metres from the back tee. Possibly driveable for big hitters, as it has that sharp dogleg as well as running downhill. Open teeshot, but with horrific trouble left of the bunkers.
The green is pretty good - very subtle, with a lot of little folds off and slightly into the green.
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What about the 13th hole, "Waterloo" at The Dunes in Myrtle Beach? Right angled with a big lake to the inside.
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Well Royal Melbourne West 6th turns damn near 90 degrees if you take the safe line left of the bunkers into the fat part of the fairway. And that is the problem with the question - a dogleg to one person is not a dogleg to another person who can bomb it over the corner. In that respect therefore i guess Agusta 13th is a better example as you have to shape the ball around rather than bomb it over, so it plays as a dogleg for everybody.
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There is the odd case like St Enodoc's 10th. I think it works well BECAUSE its so controversial from the tee. The second is where the legger contours kick in make the hole what it is - heroic without having to make a dangerous carry - the best kind of heroic in my mind.
Ciao
I have to continue to disagree with you on St E #10, Sean.
Firstly, it's a 20 degree bend at best.
There may not be a lake or a bunker to carry, but there is definitely lost-ball rough to carry if you go at the green. I'm not convinced those contours right of the putting surface are strong enough to feed a ball on that hasn't already been hooked in over the side of the hill.
Deal 6 is a good example.
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The 3rd at St. Enodoc is quite sharp downhill dogleg left - more of a dogleg than the 10th. But I wouldn't call them truly great sharp dogleg holes.
The ones that comes to my mind are
the ones that I have played
7th at Ganton - which is quite similar to Royal Melbourne's West 6th.
12th at Ganton - is a tight dogleg right with a carry over the trees!
13th at Pyle and Kenfig
18th at Belfry
the ones that I have not played
18th at Royal Dublin
18th at Emirates
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I am a big fan of the 15th at Oakland Hills, a sharp dogleg left of about 400 yards. It has two fairway bunkers at the turn of the dogleg (only on FW bunker prior to the Rees Jones remodel of the hole) that gives the player the option of carrying bunkers to leave a wedge or less into a wild green, laying up short of the traps leaving about a 6-iron into the hole or trying to get along the sides of the traps. The bunkers themselves are quite deep and will, in general, make getting to the green very difficult/impossible. Good options from the tee, a great green and a true reward for taking on the challenge of the bunkers.
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New South Wales GC #3 is a great one, IMO. But I know most of the other Aussies on this board disagree with me...
(http://www.thegolfforum.com/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=1594)
(http://www.thegolfforum.com/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=1593)
(http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/801acab1a7.jpg)
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Ed:
I like #16 at Grandfather pretty well...ithe ground slope can help you cut it around the corner...it would probably be better if the trees on the inside of the dogleg were thinned a bit and if the tee were moved slightly more to the left.
Bart
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#6 at Five Farms is one of Tilly's best par 5s. 584 from the back and you aim over a barn to cut off os much as you can bite. I made eagle there the other day hitting 3 wood, 3 wood to 6 feet.
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I think the first hole at Hoylake is a unique dog leg hole! The two times that I played it you had to be careful not to run the ball too far straight and to cut the corner required too much carry, a fade was the required shot. Is thee 18th at Royal Dublin still a sharp dog leg hole? I remember being surprised by the hole but enjoyed it.
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#10 at Hazeltine is my favorite. Gorgeous hole with some bite.
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Numbers 6 and 8 at Muirfield.
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Numbers 6 and 8 at Muirfield.
Mark, I agree those are terrific dogleg holes, both of them, but neither could really be called "sharp," by which Ed Oden meant "approaching 90o" when he started the thread.
(http://www.muirfield.org.uk/images/corsemap.jpg)
I think Ed's asked a really good question, because I don't think there ARE many good or great holes that meet that criterion. The first at Hoylake feels like 90o but it's really closer to 45o. The photo Scott Warren posted of that hole in NSW is the closest I can recall.
(http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/801acab1a7.jpg)
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Would anyone consider #18 at Crystal Downs to be "great"?
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Bill,
Fair enough.
10 at Alwoodley, anyone?
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Merion #15
Brookline #17
Ken
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Others disagree but I consider the 18th at the Harvester to be great. 540 from the blues (565 from the back tees). Prevailing summer wind is behind you off the tee.
The sharp turn allows the decision of whether to go or not go at the green in 2 to be based on accuracy - if you hit your tee ball close to the water, you have 225 in and can have a go either at the green or short left, even for a relatively short hitter such as me. If you bail out left off the tee, you need to lay up, most likely to the island area.
Off the tee it looks like you could drive the green, but I have never seen anyone come close. Google Maps measures the distance as 321 from the tee to the middle of the green.
(http://www.harvestergolf.com/images/jpg/hv-hole18.jpg)
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Jason,
Last summer, when I played the Harvester, 18 was howling down wind. My one buddy who absolutely kills it off the tee flew a couple balls to the second fw segment. He tried to get one on the green, but from that angle, the wind was knocking the ball down too quickly.
Not to sound crazy, but with the correct wind, driving that green might not be out of the realm of possibility. Hell, remember when Hank Kuehne drove #6 at Bay Hill?
p.s. - your photo of 10 tee at royal melbourne has been in my rotation of wallpapers. I love that photo :)
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Pine Needles 10 is fresh on my mind.
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What do people think of the 3rd at North Hempstead? Not sure it quite meets the 90* hurdle but it's definintely a hard dogleg. Green complex way above the fairway makes for a difficult approach on anything less than a full shot so cutting corner is quite risky, but very doable.
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#10 at Royal Birkdale is a great hole.
Usually into the prevailing wind. a very tight driving area, bunkers on the left on the inside of the dogleg.
No option to drive it over the dogleg and then into an elevated tough little green.
Playing there next week so I will return to this thread with pictures upon my return.... ;D
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#6 at Five Farms is one of Tilly's best par 5s. 584 from the back and you aim over a barn to cut off os much as you can bite. I made eagle there the other day hitting 3 wood, 3 wood to 6 feet.
In complete agreement with Jim.
This is a great hole with the drive over the barn and the cross fairway bunker to deal with on the next and then approach onto a terrific Tilly green. (Evidently, Jim doesn't need to worry about such insignificant things as deep fairway bunkers crossing his line of play)!
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8th at Cypress Point
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8th at Cypress Point
For this particular thread, maybe Stan wins the prize.
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8th at Cypress Point
For this particular thread, maybe Stan wins the prize.
I'll 2nd that one, kudos to Stan for mentioning #8 as its nothing short of fantastic.
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Bill,
Fair enough.
10 at Alwoodley, anyone?
Hmmm. Nope, about 45o looking at the Google Map. I wish I knew how to post those Google aerials.
I guess the point is, Ed is right, there are very few doglegs that sharp. I agree with you that #10 Alwoodley (thought to be the model for #13 Augusta National) seems like a sharp dogleg. It does play like one, really good hole.
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Merion #15
Brookline #17
Ken
Is Brookline #17 considered "sharp?"
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An unlikely one - but how about the 14th and 16th at Hounslow Heath in London? A scruffy municipal but 14/15/16 are three great holes.
14th is a full on 90 degree dog leg right. You really have no choice but to play as two irons. The 16th is a crook shaped dog leg left through trees to a green over a stream.
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=hounslow+heath+golf&sll=51.444165,-0.393963&sspn=0.026855,0.108833&ie=UTF8&ll=51.455063,-0.396699&spn=0.003356,0.013604&t=h&z=17
I guess "great" would be pushing it as a description, but proof you can find beauty in the unlikeliest of places
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#4 @ Bandon Dunes sure is a nice intro to the oceanside. An energizing moment at the turn with a challenging and beautiful shot(s) to come.
and Bandon Trails #14 is a great dogleg.
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The double dog leg par 5 at Whistling Straights
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2455/3698958222_473628fd1c.jpg?v=0)
Tony Offtopic
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Pine Valley #6 maybe?
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Sorry, I'm just now checking back in on this thread. A few thoughts:
Sean makes a good point about the effect of trees. But if trees are not the defining feature of the dogleg, then there has to be some other hazard or obstacle creating largely the same effect. Without that, then there really isn't a dogleg is there?
I didn't intend the reference to "approaching 90 degrees" to be taken so literally. Seems to me anything in the 75 degree range (perhaps even a bit less) would qualify. My point was just that the dogleg needs to be severe. I think it is that severity that makes this type of hole hard to design because it tends to exclude options off the tee rather than create them. Show me a sharp dogleg that has multiple viable lines of play off the tee and I think you are well on your way to identifying the best ones.
Many of the nominations so far I think prove my point that these are tough holes to design well. Sure they are sharp doglegs. But are they "truly great" holes? I'm not sure some of them are even among the best holes on their course. Of those mentioned so far, I have played 6 (Grandfather #16, Baltimore Five Farms #6, Pine Needles #10, Bandon Dunes #4, Bandon Trails #14 and Whistling Straits #5). I don't view either of the Bandon holes as sharp doglegs. Of the others, the only one that I think potentially qualifies as great is Five Farms #6. Even there, I'm not sure it is the best par 5 on the course, although that is more a testament to #14 than a detraction against #6.
Ed
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Speaking of Five Farms, #12 is a pretty good hole, too.
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How about-
#8 at Wekopa Cholla
and a couple of Strantz favs-
#11 at Tobacco
#2 at R New Kent
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The double dog leg par 5 at Whistling Straights
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2455/3698958222_473628fd1c.jpg?v=0)
Tony Offtopic
LOL! Anthony, that is the single worst hole on the entire Blackwolf/Whistling complex....#72 out of 72... ???
Dave,
I was thinking the same...that hole looks to be the largest blight on an otherwise darn good golf course. That and the goofy 18th hole ;D
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Another is Seminole #16. It's brilliant.
To the extent your tee shot is wide and to the left of the dogleg, you're incrementally taxed with a longer approach, generally into the wind.
Ken
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The fourth at Tobacco Road???
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The fourth at Tobacco Road???
#4 and #11 might both be more than 90o -- great call Tony!
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I just remembered one that should take 1st place.
ANGC #13....thats gotta be right up there.
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The double dog leg par 5 at Whistling Straights
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2455/3698958222_473628fd1c.jpg?v=0)
Tony Offtopic
LOL! Anthony, that is the single worst hole on the entire Blackwolf/Whistling complex....#72 out of 72... ???
Dave,
I was thinking the same...that hole looks to be the largest blight on an otherwise darn good golf course. That and the goofy 18th hole ;D
This hole deserves a thread.
Anthony
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#3 at Quail Hollow comes close.
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the 12th at Southern Hills, not a 90 degree, but a great par 4
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Bandon Trails #14 is not a dogleg. It is the short hole from the ridgetop to the " "green. # 13 and #15 both dogleg, but I would not consider them sharp (+4 degrees).
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17 at olympia fields south and 4 at hop meadow cc in simsbury CT, talk about obscure!!.
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Is the 17th at TOC not sharp enough a dogleg?
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Ed, #2 at Sedgefield CC is as good as it gets, par 4 dogleg right to a fairway sloping away from the tee shot across three diagonal cross bunkers. You played it yet?
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2 Tillinghast holes come to mind...
Quaker Ridge #7, makes a big right hand turn. A above average drive down the middle goes through the fairway. Either play a fade, possibly with 3-wood, or take it over the trees and white stakes to about 120 yrds away.
Bethpage Black #12, turns dead left after the big cross bunker. I'm sure we are all familiar with it after the open, and its definitely a sharp dog-leg.
Also... What about Pebble Beach #18? Looks like a sharp dog-leg to me! The corner might be a bit more arching, but the hole turns about 90 degrees.
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Ed, #2 at Sedgefield CC is as good as it gets, par 4 dogleg right to a fairway sloping away from the tee shot across three diagonal cross bunkers. You played it yet?
Kris, I am embarrassed to say that I haven't made it to Sedgefield yet. But I'll be passing through Greensboro in about 10 days. So with any luck, that will change soon.
I appreciate all the responses so far. Especially those that describe what makes the hole great. Not good, but GREAT! What distinguishes the hole from other sharp doglegs that fail? Does the hole succeed (at least in part) because of the sharp dogleg or in spite of it?
To me, the best example is the one I mentioned in my original post: ANGC #13. I'm not sure there are really multiple options from the tee. Seems virtually everyone would like to play a big draw if possible. But what seems to make it great is that the hole doesn't appear to lose anything in terms of strategic value, challenge, interest or fun no matter where your ball ends up after the tee shot. Looks to me like you can make birdie or double from almost anywhere.
Ed
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Bandon Trails #14 is not a dogleg. It is the short hole from the ridgetop to the " "green.
Petey, I suppose I should have put an emoticon w/ a wink on that one but I really do try to avoid those things.
You are a fine golfer and you probably play #14 straight up the gut. I, being full of swing foibles, generally play it as a dogleg.
BTW " " green. ? I assume you mean "comforting" green.
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6 at Lahinch is a pretty sharp dogleg, and it is definitely a great hole... not sure if its quite sharp enough though!
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Its amazing how many of the holes mentioned are nowhere near 90 degrees turn - including #10 at St Enodoc. Much of the time these holes are closer to 45 degrees. Perhaps this about the area we all consider to be a sharp legger, because 90 degrees is really very, very sharp.
Ed
Bunkers and/or rough can define a dogleg - they most often do on links - though even 45 degree leggers are rare. I would think most of the time something is in the way that must be hit around such as the 1st on North Wales (houses), but I bet that is only about 60 degrees.
The one hole I am thinking of now is Pennard's 17th. The map shows it incredibly straight, but I am sure this is inaccurate as with the 10th. In any case, that turn is so sharp that to try and cut the leg on the second becomes very difficult because of the angle making the fairway so narrow. Effectively, one has to really go for the green on the second or hit out to the turn of the leg with a layup. So many times times I have seen what seem like good shots cutting the leg, but not going for the green lost. I don't know if I can call this a good hole, but it has always frustrated me so it must have some merit.
(http://www.golfclubatlas.com/images/Pennardcourseplan.jpg)
Ciao
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No par 3s mentioned.The old 5th at Pebble had more dogleg than some of the holes already mentioned.
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Ridgewood's #8 West is a wonderful uphill sharp dogleg par-5. Lots going on with the hole, including some key trees which really force you into making sharp decisions about how you are going to play the hole.