Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Roger Wolfe on April 01, 2009, 06:40:11 AM
-
We recently relocated our entire bag room to make room for the members to store 75 push carts. I remember the perception in the past was that once you bought a push cart you were halfway to the nursing home. This reminds me of the old opinion that using a 7 wood instead of a 3 iron was humiliating (Rich Beem changed that at Hazeltine). A popular practice in Charlotte is for the club to purchase a small fleet of push carts, ban the personal carts, then charge the members the equivalent of a nine hole cart fee to use one. You either walk and carry your bag for free, walk and rent a push cart, or rent a regular cart. This is the case at "caddie" and "non-caddie" clubs. Has anyone else seen this trend at their club(s)?
-
When I grew up in Scotland, everyone carried their bags... Maybe that was just through the eyes of a youth who didn't worry about back pain etc... But I still believe that a good number of people carry their bags in Scotland... The rest use a pull-trolley (non-motor) and some of the elderly use the motorised push-trolley...
However, when I moved to Irleland, I noticed that very few carried their bags. On top of this, there didn't seem to be a stigma about the under-40's using a motorised push-cart (as in Scotland)...
-
If someone's going to charge me $15-$30 for a trolley to put my clubs on it had better be a power one. Sounds to me like just another way for a club with a good many walking golfers to extract more money from them, I guess you do what you've got to do in today's wintry economic climate. I shoulder my bag a little more than half the time, use my three-wheeler otherwise and if it were costing me real money (say, more than a few dollars a round) I'd just carry it on my shoulder all the time unless I were doing 36 two days in a row or something like that.
I'm just down I-77 from you and have only encountered one place locally that doesn't (or didn't) allow push carts. I joined Crickentree one summer a good many years ago and if you walked there they made you carry your bag. It was pretty obviously intended to "encourage" members to take carts instead, non-members were required to use carts (semi-private club with a majority of rounds by daily-fee players). After I'd been there three months they banned walking altogether, apparently because there were a couple dozen of us who all joined about that time and walked/carried every round. They thought that would force us to take carts but I think most of us just quit, I know I did.
While a few old-school private clubs will maintain their stigma against the push cart for another generation or so, I think generally any restriction on push carts is increasingly transparent as simply an attempt to "force" people into playing in a way that's more lucrative for somone whether it be carts or caddies.
P.S. Our club already charges walkers a $3/round fee to which I have no objection, surely it is meet for those of us who use the course a lot to chip in a bit extra in addition to our dues.
-
Our course just allowed pull/push carts last year. We don't have any rental, you must either store or bring your own. Initially we charged a $5 trail fee although this year we have dropped the $5 trail fee and allowed members to pull/push a cart for free.
From the Superintendents stand point I love them, the more people I can get out of an Ez-Go to start walking the less wear and tear on the course. From the Pros stand point he will lose cart revenue from people switching riding to walking (although our course has always had a lot of walkers). Some members have commented on them looking "muni" although introducing the pull/push carts was VERY popular amongst 90% of our membership.
I grew up in Australia were everyone pulls a buggy so there is nothing "muni" about it to me..
-
At least 300 of our members own pull/push carts and another 100 to 150 rent them from us when they play. Of course the majority of our members walk, and the majority of those members are over the age of 50, so simple demographics might explain why we have so many push carts. The fee to rent a pull cart is 1/4 of the fee for a motorized cart.
I would be interested to hear from a superintendent whether the big three wheel push carts do any harm when it's wet. It never made sense to me that on really wet days where it's cart path only, we still allow the big three wheeled push carts on the course. I can always see the tracks from those carts later on in the day.
-
I grew up in Australia were everyone pulls a buggy so there is nothing "muni" about it to me..
You know, a theory just occurred to me about how this "muni" association with pull carts came into being. Maybe there was a point in time when one of the distinctions between private clubs and public courses was that you walked with a caddie at a private course and walked but carried or pulled your bag at a "muni". If so, that meme survives as the inversion of it's original connotation. It started out where having a caddie was a mark of superiority, now that virtually nobody uses caddies the pull carts serves as a marker for inferiority. With "superiority" and "inferiority" purely a social construct among those who like to feel superior.
Or maybe it comes from some other long-forgotten social hierarchy. I wasn't alive or playing golf that long ago.
It never made sense to me that on really wet days where it's cart path only, we still allow the big three wheeled push carts on the course. I can always see the tracks from those carts later on in the day.
Do you also see footprints in those same wet areas at the end of the day? There are places on most courses around here where after a couple days of hard rain anything heavier than wet leaf leaves a mark in the mud.
-
P.S. Our club already charges walkers a $3/round fee to which I have no objection, surely it is meet for those of us who use the course a lot to chip in a bit extra in addition to our dues.
Man, would I have an objection to that. I know it's only $3, but in principle, if I pay dues, then there shouldn't be another fee to use the facility. I'd have to ask them to up the dues a bit for everyone, and then leave me to decide how I want to get around the golf course.
I just don't understand a lot of the private club culture. I'm probably wrong about this too.
Joe
-
I have one because my lower back problems do not allow me tocarry my clubs like I want.
Anthony
-
Anything that keeps regular carts off a golf course (and more importantly cart-paths) has to be a positive. However I hate to use them myself; on a flat course I do not really need one, and on a hilly course I keep letting the buggy fall over near slopes next to tees /greens etc...
Limit the no. of clubs to 7 or 8 and almost everybody can carry....
-
Limit the no. of clubs to 7 or 8 and almost everybody can carry....
Exactly what I have done. As a bonus, the shot creativity is much more necessary too!
Joe
-
Golfweek recently ran an article... IIRC, it said that the tricycle type carts are being used in college golf now.
Seeing how the stand cart started in the college ranks, this could be a positive development.
-
Joe,
Our club has sort of two cultures coexisting, like a lot of clubs I suspect. There are those of us who are there to play golf and those of us who are there for the social benefits of being part of the club. And of course many people are both, as well. While it initially struck me as annoying to be charged that little fee for playing the truth is nearly half the expenses of the club go to maintaining the course so in effect the fee serves to charge the former group (golfers) a bit more every month than the latter (socializers). In effect my dues are about 5-8% higher than a member who never plays a round of golf.
BTW, when I shoulder my bag I usually have 9-10 clubs but when I use the three-wheeler I go all the way up to my full set of 12. I also keep my bottle of divot mix only half full when I'm carrying, the full bottles just weigh the bag down like no tomorrow.
-
I have one because my lower back problems do not allow me tocarry my clubs like I want.
Anthony
From your avatar photo you look mighty young to be having back problems.
-
I have one because my lower back problems do not allow me tocarry my clubs like I want.
Anthony
From your avatar photo you look mighty young to be having back problems.
That is the result of performance enhancers.
Anthony
-
Merion West(but not the East) has a small fleet of yellow Sun Mountain 3 wheelers available for rental at $10 for those members and guests who prefer not to carry.
-
how anyone can think that pull carts are not "acceptable" but electric driving carts are...well., when i die and get up to heaven that is one of the first things i am going to ask the Big Guy to explain to me
-
I carried for years until the bugaboo of a bad back prevented me from comfortably playing while carrying. While the idea of a power cart seemed a disaster, I was running out of options. Then those lovely folks at Sun mountain released the Speed Cart.
I am still on my feet. I might add the nursing home is further away while I still walk. From a health stand point, its the riders that are in trouble. Get up and walk.
-
Here's the Golfweek article:
http://www.golfweek.com/story/push-carts-for-your-game-031609
-
I have used a three wheel cart for a few years, carried before the cart and still do carry in the winter when the weather makes the cart hard to push.
Two thoughts.
Walking does make golf exercise and typically helps to shut people up who state otherwise.
Modern course design that puts 500 yards plus between green and tee has rendered this discussion moot for a lot of clubs. And that sucks.
-
A couple of years ago I was at the Valley Club in Santa Barbara, which is about as exclusive as it gets. One of the members was in his Saturday game wearing shorts and pushing his Sun Mountain (or maybe one of the club's, they let you use them for free) ----- Freddy Couples. It was pretty cool.
Lots of people use them at my club in Pensacola, the club gets revenue by charging a separate monthly storage fee but there are no other charges.
-
Forget the stigma -- they make loads of sense.
-
I've grown up with pull/push-carts. Rarely see people carrying, and motorised carts are reserved for amputees and those in the 90s.
So, for those of you who carry, how many sticks do you normally haul around?
-
Push/pull buggies are par for the course in Australia. Most people have their own and bring them to the course in their car. Clubs also have them and will usually rent them for $3-5.
I would say growing up 90% of golfers used them and the other 10% rode or carried, carrying is more popular now (as is riding), but a very high % of golfers would still use a buggy.
Wow, I'm amazed they are so "alien" in the USA... I guess that explains why so many more people ride over there?
Warwick: I carry and have 12-13 clubs on board. I know literally dozens of people who carry a full bag on long and hilly tracks without any drama. Including my 53yo dad.
-
motorised carts are reserved for amputees and those in the 90s.
thats a bit harsh, no?
-
Push carts do carry a stigma in the SW, plus they are a threat to the important revenue streams of motorized carts. With the extreme weather in this part of the country, riding is the norm. The cost structure of the cart fleet and supporting infrastructure is highly fixed, and even if push carts only canabalize 10% of rounds, say 5,000 rounds a year, that's probably close to a $70,000 impact on the bottom line. Charging a trail fee for walkers would meet some resistance as Joe H noted.
Riders complain of slow play and a lack of "support" of the club's operations by walkers. Unfortunately, these charges have some validity. Unless walkers are willing to pony up via higher dues or trail fees and accept responsibility for fast play, a strong bias toward riding carts will continue to prevail. I don't like it, but the laws of physics and economics are not subject to change.
-
Does the use of a push cart signify a milestone in your life?
Push cart........annual prostate exam.......alimony.........sportscar........hybrids....hair replacement.......pants with elastic......birth control for your children......caregiving........gynecomastia......decreased flow.......white tee boxes.......the blue pill......
Anthony
-
motorised carts are reserved for amputees and those in the 90s.
thats a bit harsh, no?
I wasn't expressing an opinion - just reporting my experience.
That's literally what happens at my club. Other people with compelling medical reasons are also permitted to use ride-on carts. Not sure whether they have to formerly apply for permission. I wouldn't think the club owns more than 5 or 6 of those things, and it's very rare to see golfers using them. This is on the sandbelt in Melbourne, Australia.
-
Lou, are you trying to say that two people riding in a cart play faster than I do with my push cart? I will take that bet. And that's with the two riding to their balls, sitting there while one guy hits, then driving to the other guy's ball. Put the carts on the path, and it's absolutely no contest. Go out to We-Ko-Pa and time the groups who walk with the complimentary speed carts vs. the groups in carts on the path. . . I've said numerous times on this site that a round on Saguaro is the best public golf course experience in the Valley for the very reason that walking is not only permitted, but encouraged.
I have no sympathy whatsoever for a course whose business model is dependent upon people unwilling to walk. Yes, I will sometimes ride if the other three in my group are walking (but I will bitch before I do), or if like last Saturday it's 40 outside with 25 mph winds -- thank god for covers and my Cart Cat heater! -- but walking makes the game so much more pleasurable, and lugging 14 clubs is a bitch. We have courses here in the Chicago District where carts are indeed reserved for those with medical necessities (Onwentsia springs to mind as one), and I'm unaware of any uprising among those memberships to change that. . .
And yes, Anthony, I did enjoy the Pine Meadow two man scramble on Saturday where I (as a 50+) was permitted to hit from the blue tees.
-
I say anything that promotes walking is a good thing!
After trying out one of the SpeedCarts at We-Ko-Pa this fall, I went out and bought one. Having already gotten over the stigma of having to play off the ladies tees, I'm not bothered by anyone looking down their nose at me for using a push cart. ;D
-
I say anything that promotes walking is a good thing!
Agreed....Whatever it takes to get 'em out there.
Anthony
-
We encourage walking and the Sun Mountain carts are available free of charge for for both members and guests.
Bob
-
My opinion (as a member at Roger's club). Motorized carts are the stigma, if anything is. They are all over the public and resort courses (just like the guys who meet you in the parking lot at many of these places and want to carry your clubs 25 yards to the club house). However, when motorized carts are used under conditions such that walking won't work for the golfer, they're o.k., and in those cases I don't consider them to be a stigma.
It's a cultural thing we could learn from the Scots, from whom we learned golf. At Royal Troon, one of the stuffiest clubs I've visited, they may have motorized carts for the those with medical problems, as many Scottish clubs do, but I didn't see them. On the other hand, they'll rent you a bare bones pull cart for several pounds or you can use your own. One of their members loaned one of our group his personal pull cart to use so we only had to rent three from the club (although the member was not permitted by club rule to share a drink with us, as visitors, in the club bar -- go where you want with that).
Exercise. Walking a course is low level exercise, but it does have value and is better than none at all. Funny thing is that my sense is that relatively more younger golfers than older golfers ride at our club, which is not to say we don't have lots of younger members who walk (at age 67, I'm one of them). Still, I'm amazed at all the young, apparently heathy young people who ride. (I'll ignore the we-need-the-cart-to-carry-the-beer argument.) For me walking is an essential part of the game. If not mistaken I believe the PGA, LPGA and USGA buy into that, too.
Walking carrying vs. walking pushing or pulling. If only the old or infirm use push/pull carts, then why have the caddie carry your bag, young man? If you need him or her for advice, bring the caddie along but you carry the bag.
Speed of play. Except for those so-called golf courses with long walks from green to the next tee (e.g., typical residential development "golf courses" in this area), speed of play has everything to do with the players' approach to the game and virtually nothing to do with walking vs. riding. Some golfers play slow, some medium and some fast.
Revenue. Raise everyone's dues? Or charge $X per round of golf regardless of whether the golfer takes a buggy? But wait, in joining the golf club and paying dues aren't we already paying to play golf. We're a golf club. We join to play golf and pay dues to play golf. We ought to be able to walk and carry or push/pull any time we want to, at no extra charge. But, riders do pay extra for carts (easy for me to say because mostly I walk). That's what we do now at Roger's club, which is the way it ought to be.
Regarding Golfweek, also from the same issue, see: http://www.golfweek.com/story/toy-box-031009
-
Lou, are you trying to say that two people riding in a cart play faster than I do with my push cart? I will take that bet. And that's with the two riding to their balls, sitting there while one guy hits, then driving to the other guy's ball. Put the carts on the path, and it's absolutely no contest.
No, I am saying that one can ride from point A to point B much faster most of the time than walking it. I will bet you any amount of money you like that I can play faster riding than you can walking, holding all other things equal.
There is absolutely no question that carts are faster than walking. I know a number of five and six-somes who can play in three hours and under, often playing for considerable sums of money. Given equal concern for the speed of play and similar playing ability, it is no contest.
The best chance for us walkers is to demonstrate that we can keep up, pay our share, and fix our divots. Too many walkers fall short on all three. A past club manager once told me that with great consistency, those who walked also spent the least in the pro shop (not including carts) and the grill. Obviously, clubs prefer members whose monthly bill is somewhat larger than the bare minimum for dues and taxes.
-
There is absolutely no question that carts are faster than walking. I know a number of five and six-somes who can play in three hours and under, often playing for considerable sums of money. Given equal concern for the speed of play and similar playing ability, it is no contest.
There absolutely is a question. Indeed, unless a course has excessive green to tee distances I think you are flat out wrong. But that's for a different thread.
-
"There is absolutely no question that carts are faster than walking. I know a number of five and six-somes who can play in three hours and under, often playing for considerable sums of money. Given equal concern for the speed of play and similar playing ability, it is no contest."
If this is true at your private club, then you are the great exception in the golf world, but your opinion has no bearing whatsoever on the world of public course golf of which I am a denizen. Yes, you in a cart vs. me walking will allow you to be faster. Do you play a lot of golf by yourself in a cart? Do they make you pay for the full cart? Most people I see have two players in a cart. And they do sit there while their partner hits, then drive over to their fellow competitor's ball. If they don't do that at your club, great for all of you.
But please don't make silly generalizations that walkers don't fix their divots, keep up, or pay their share. The reason cart users should pay more is because they damage the course far more than any walker in a push cart. And riders spend more $$ in the pro shop and grill? With "great consistency?" I can see why he's a "past" club manager if that's any indication of his business sense (or total lack thereof).
-
Lou, are you trying to say that two people riding in a cart play faster than I do with my push cart? I will take that bet. And that's with the two riding to their balls, sitting there while one guy hits, then driving to the other guy's ball. Put the carts on the path, and it's absolutely no contest.
No, I am saying that one can ride from point A to point B much faster most of the time than walking it. I will bet you any amount of money you like that I can play faster riding than you can walking, holding all other things equal.
There is absolutely no question that carts are faster than walking. I know a number of five and six-somes who can play in three hours and under, often playing for considerable sums of money. Given equal concern for the speed of play and similar playing ability, it is no contest.
The best chance for us walkers is to demonstrate that we can keep up, pay our share, and fix our divots. Too many walkers fall short on all three. A past club manager once told me that with great consistency, those who walked also spent the least in the pro shop (not including carts) and the grill. Obviously, clubs prefer members whose monthly bill is somewhat larger than the bare minimum for dues and taxes.
I agree with Lou,
I walk 90% of the time but ride when I have a guest who is not up to walking.
When riding it is a much shorter round.
Bob
-
Speed of play.
Revenue.
The two items above are really the only thing we think about in terms of club management and walking. I have always considered golf carts an operating expense, especially when I ran a daily fee club. You were welcome to walk or ride... you still paid the same price. I believe the "cart fee" comes from 1. state taxing authorities and 2. back when the pro owned the cart concession. I included this in a survey at a private club and, as expected, we could not come to an agreement on what to do... it was split 50/50. We proposed a dues increase of $70 per month that would abolish cart fees once and for all. The walkers howled and the riders rejoiced! But no luck. We still have the same system. But, in the end, the club is funded by the same bucket of money. Those who use the club the most want the expenses spread out evenly among the membership... those who use it the least want as much "a la carte" as possible. Now that is a battle neither side will ever win.
The only reason I would recommend a very small walking fee (maybe $3) is due to the divot issues presented by the walkers. The push carts are actually quite helpful in the "war on divots" since the new ones are usually equipped with a bottle of some kind. We send a fleet of maintenance employees out every Monday to fix the walkers' divots. I have never run the numbers.. but it can't be that much.
As for the speed issue... who is kidding who? Fastest - carts on the fairways... next is walking... a distant "turd" is carts restricted to the paths... and I do mean "turd!" For 5 handicaps and below... walking and carts on the path are about the same (fairways and grens). For hackers... carts on the path is an absolute nightmare.
My two cents.... I ran an upscale daily fee in Stafford, VA from 1997 to 2001 with a Japanese owner who insisted we keep the carts on the paths. With a high slope and rating you can imagine what we went through on a daily basis to keep it 4:40 or faster. I lived pace of play for 5 seasons... charts and graphs and the whole nine yards.
-
My opinion (as a member at Roger's club). . . .
Revenue. Raise everyone's dues? Or charge $X per round of golf regardless of whether the golfer takes a buggy? But wait, in joining the golf club and paying dues aren't we already paying to play golf. We're a golf club. We join to play golf and pay dues to play golf. We ought to be able to walk and carry or push/pull any time we want to, at no extra charge. [Clarification: But, riders should and do pay extra for the buggies (easy for me to say because mostly I walk).] That's what we do now at Roger's club, which is the way it ought to be.
This paragraph changed to clarify.
-
"There is absolutely no question that carts are faster than walking. I know a number of five and six-somes who can play in three hours and under, often playing for considerable sums of money. Given equal concern for the speed of play and similar playing ability, it is no contest."
If this is true at your private club, then you are the great exception in the golf world, but your opinion has no bearing whatsoever on the world of public course golf of which I am a denizen. Yes, you in a cart vs. me walking will allow you to be faster. Do you play a lot of golf by yourself in a cart? Do they make you pay for the full cart? Most people I see have two players in a cart. And they do sit there while their partner hits, then drive over to their fellow competitor's ball. If they don't do that at your club, great for all of you.
But please don't make silly generalizations that walkers don't fix their divots, keep up, or pay their share. The reason cart users should pay more is because they damage the course far more than any walker in a push cart. And riders spend more $$ in the pro shop and grill? With "great consistency?" I can see why he's a "past" club manager if that's any indication of his business sense (or total lack thereof).
Mark S,
You should know that I am a huge proponent of walking. I was an early 'Walking Member" in the USGA's program, and heavily lobbied the USGA to use its bully pulpit with the industry. I took on American Golf Corp.'s heavy hand in pushing riding at its clubs under ownership and management. I've studied the issue extensively over the last 30 years and my generalizations are hardly "silly". What I've described reflects the issues on riding vs. walking in this country accurately.
Your derisive tone is not unusual in either camp- those who can't tolerate walkers or those who believe there is no place for riding carts. It is not helpful either. Walking and riding have their advantages and disadvantages. I see no reason why it has to be one or the other, nor do I have a problem with each paying their own way. If walking was truly faster, caused less damage, and contributed equally to the course's bottom line, we would not be having this conversation.
BTW, my comments are based on over 25 years of experience at a two private clubs that were operated more closely to a daily-fee- they were accessible to nearly anyone who could pay the monthly dues or the modest guest fees. I have also played on annual subscriptions at two daily-fee courses, as well as at some two hundred other public facilities. Holding everything else equal, carts are faster at public courses as well.
Regarding the manager whose worth you so demean, he took a higher paying job with a better club which included an equity participation. The last I heard, both he and the club are doing very well.
-
There is absolutely no question that carts are faster than walking. I know a number of five and six-somes who can play in three hours and under, often playing for considerable sums of money. Given equal concern for the speed of play and similar playing ability, it is no contest.
The best chance for us walkers is to demonstrate that we can keep up, pay our share, and fix our divots. Too many walkers fall short on all three. A past club manager once told me that with great consistency, those who walked also spent the least in the pro shop (not including carts) and the grill. Obviously, clubs prefer members whose monthly bill is somewhat larger than the bare minimum for dues and taxes.
Lou,
One of the really interesting things about this thread is that it really illustrates how different things are from place to place. At my home course, walkers tend to play more quickly and tend to be more diligent when it comes to divots and ball marks than non walkers. I suspect that this has as much to do with short green to tee walks and the relative age of each group.
-
At least 300 of our members own pull/push carts and another 100 to 150 rent them from us when they play. Of course the majority of our members walk, and the majority of those members are over the age of 50, so simple demographics might explain why we have so many push carts. The fee to rent a pull cart is 1/4 of the fee for a motorized cart.
I would be interested to hear from a superintendent whether the big three wheel push carts do any harm when it's wet. It never made sense to me that on really wet days where it's cart path only, we still allow the big three wheeled push carts on the course. I can always see the tracks from those carts later on in the day.
Cory,
It's really no worse than carrying your bag. In fact, carrying your own bag is more weight distributed over a much smaller area when you work out the ratio.
Which is heavier? The Pull Cart or your body (even after all the weight you've lost!)?
-
I think we are also trying to compare apples and oranges when it comes to the divot debate.
My first reaction was... these guys are idiots.
1. How does a walker repair a divot without a sand bottle? Up north, the fairways are bentgrass so you "replace" the divots... not fill them up with sand like with bermudagrass.
2. You can land an airplane on a bermudagrass fairway and not do any damage. But do golf carts track and rut up bentgrass fairways?
All of us might want to mention what kind of grass exists in our fairways and roughs before weighing in on this topic (which, I might add, has turned out to be very, very amusing).
-
Check out http://www.golfweek.com/story/push-carts-for-your-game-031609
-
I am a member of a private club in Vancouver and the club has always had many push / pull carts (not the Sun Mountain speed carts) available for no charge. With the completion of a new pro shop which has plenty of storage space, they will now store your Sun Mountain speed cart for a $15 per month charge. It seems strange to me that they do not charge for club storage in the pro shop but if you want to store your speed cart there, you have to pay.
Like many others posting above, I have always preferred to carry but by the end of a round, my back is in pretty bad shape. The speed cart is the only way to go now, save for having a caddie.
Bob J
-
Bob,
Oregon/Washington/BC never had an isue with carts. I think it came from all the rain and not wanting to set your bag on the ground (pre-stand bag).
When I was a member of a club in Oregon, all the walkers used the push carts when the ground was wet.
Perhaps it's a regional thing?
-
There used to be a stigma in the US to allow push carts. It was seen as a public course thing. Thankfully, that stigma is largely gone.
My club allows walking anytime (yes even Saturday at 8:00 AM) for no charge.
Push Carts are allowed anytime and cost $7 for 18 holes and $4 for nne holes.
Carts are $17 for 18 holes and $10 for 9 holes.
When carts are restricted to paths, walking and/or push carts are faster for most people.
When it's no restrictions re: cart paths, carts can certainly play faster.
We are responding to the wishes of the membership and whatever income loss resuklts is more than outweighed by the good will created by giving the membership more true choices.
-
There is some info on the walking golfer website below about the benefits of walking.
http://www.thewalkinggolfer.com/
A study in CO showed that carrying and pushing burn about the same number of calories, while pushing is obviously much easier on your body. I will use my push cart for tournaments or on days where I hope to play more than 18. I like to carry about 10 clubs usually so my bag is very light.
http://www.thewalkinggolfer.com/Physical_Benefits_GXEC.html
Push carts are far superior to pull parts due to the better ergonomics. Pull carts can wrench on your shoulder, especially on uphills.
I recently reviewed a Clicgear 2.0 push cart on site and was very positive about it. The new push carts have a lot of user friendly features and are very easy to open/ close.
http://www.thewalkinggolfer.com/Clicgear_2.html
I golfed and caddied a lot in Ireland growing up and many many people used either "powacaddy" push carts or pull carts. No stigma there at all regardless of age or ability.
I think it would be awesome if golf clubs would rent power push carts and provide push carts for their members. I am sure the maintenance costs on a power push cart is way less than that of a motorized cart which would allow the club to make money there. The turf maintenance costs would also be significantly less and at the time of construction not having to build cart paths would save even more money (although admittedly it would reduce your potential clientele).
With USGA Junior golf events mandating push carts, it is good to see the next generation growing up walking while putting less pressure on their backs. If this does indeed move into the college ranks then pushcarts will be even more accepted in the future.
I see a lot of walkers at Pumpkin Ridge using push carts - many of them in their 30s and 40s - so I think the stigma is fading.
O yeah, and at Pumpkin there is no way you could say that Cart Golfers play faster than Walking Golfers. Sometimes it is true and sometimes it is incredibly false. It depends on the golfers.
-
Lou, are you trying to say that two people riding in a cart play faster than I do with my push cart? I will take that bet. And that's with the two riding to their balls, sitting there while one guy hits, then driving to the other guy's ball. Put the carts on the path, and it's absolutely no contest.
No, I am saying that one can ride from point A to point B much faster most of the time than walking it. I will bet you any amount of money you like that I can play faster riding than you can walking, holding all other things equal.
There is absolutely no question that carts are faster than walking. I know a number of five and six-somes who can play in three hours and under, often playing for considerable sums of money. Given equal concern for the speed of play and similar playing ability, it is no contest.
The best chance for us walkers is to demonstrate that we can keep up, pay our share, and fix our divots. Too many walkers fall short on all three. A past club manager once told me that with great consistency, those who walked also spent the least in the pro shop (not including carts) and the grill. Obviously, clubs prefer members whose monthly bill is somewhat larger than the bare minimum for dues and taxes.
I don't really buy the "carts are faster than walking" argument. Obviously carts get from the tee to the tee shot faster than walkers, that's why cart riders are forever racing out there and then standing with arms crossed, aggravated by walkers in front of them.
However, the walking 4 some is playing just as fast as the cart riding 4 some in terms of time on the course, it's just the pace that is different. Cart golf is race and wait, walking is a steady pace.
I'm talking about a foursome of riders behind a foursome of walkers. Now one of each, cart riding is faster.
-
at Pumpkin there is no way you could say that Cart Golfers play faster than Walking Golfers. Sometimes it is true and sometimes it is incredibly false. It depends on the golfers.
I think that hits the nail on the head. A fast golfer is fast on foot or not, and a slow player, likewise.
-
I don't really buy the "carts are faster than walking" argument. Obviously carts get from the tee to the tee shot faster than walkers, that's why cart riders are forever racing out there and then standing with arms crossed, aggravated by walkers in front of them.
However, the walking 4 some is playing just as fast as the cart riding 4 some in terms of time on the course, it's just the pace that is different. Cart golf is race and wait, walking is a steady pace.
I'm talking about a foursome of riders behind a foursome of walkers. Now one of each, cart riding is faster.
Carts *can* be faster than walkers, but cart-takers are very often (usually?) not operated in a fashion which promotes a shorter round. ("I'm going to wait for my buddy to hit, and then we'll drive 30 feet left to get to my shot.") So yeah, what Scott said.
Lou, my past club in Houston had the Sun Mountain carts with the fat tires, and they were great for walking rounds in the (6-month) Houston summer. I think it was $10/round (v. reasonable given we also have caddies and it's a well-regarded course).
-
Dan,
You may be correct that it is a regional tolerance of push carts. I also would guess that the use of power carts (ie. the riding carts) is less in this part of the world and that may be due to the rain, where the softer conditions in winter do not lend themselves to the weight of a power cart.
Bob
-
Mr. Duran, I apologize if you felt that the tone of my posts was in some measure was derisive. I believed that my tone was responsive to that of yours, and if it offended, that was not my intent.
Your assertion, or rather the assertion of your former manager, that walkers as a general rule, spend less $$ in the pro shop in the grill was -- in my opinion -- ill-founded, baseless, and without substantive demonstrable merit (if I may say that without being considered derisive or offensive). I'm sorry but I did take offense at the tone of that assertion, with which I guess we will have to agree to disagree. The same is true of the claim that walkers and pushers fail to replace divots at a greater rate than riders. Again, I and my friends take pride in the way we treat golf courses that we play, and since most of us walk most of the time, the assertion was (in my view) misplaced in an attempt at a cogent discussion of this issue.
I have no dispute with the fact that there are many golfers, including some at your club, who play quickly and efficiently when riding. That, alas, is not the general rule, particularly in my personal experience. Admittedly I live in Chicago, so my season is short -- I will probably only post 60 or 70 scores of rounds played during our season. But I believe that if you poll course owners with permanent tee times on public courses in our District (I am certain that Frank Jemsek will agree with me because we have discussed this issue), they will tell you that their walking groups play more expeditiously than the riding groups.
Again, please accept my apology for any unintended derision you found in my prior posts.
-
Re: the grill question -- surely use of a cart is an effect, not a cause, of willingness to spend on other luxuries.
-
FWIW in regards to walkers being less inclined to spend......
At Secession Club in Beaufort, SC, all play is ambulatory. Caddies only until recently, and now walking-and-carrying (no pullcarts) are permitted from mid-afternoon onward.
The Secession Pro Shop does a huge merchandise business--the average expenditure-per-round-per-player is about $45, a figure topped at Pine Valley, Pebble Beach, and very few other facilities.
-
Let me tell you a cart story - hopefully it'll make you smile.
I grew up in Tonawanda, NY - a suburb of Buffalo. I have 3 brothers, my mom never worked, and my dad worked for the State of NY. We weren't poor by any means, but we didn't have much money left over for non-essentials.
My dad got me hooked on golf, and our town had two fun munis, one of which, Sheridan, held the '62 USGA Publinx. The other one, Brighton was about 3.5 miles from my house, and a yearly pass cost $65 if you were under 19 yrs old.
I didn't have a car. But I did have a 3-speed bike with a saddle seat. I also had a really ugly pull cart that was built like a tank. This thing had a large fake golf ball at the end of the handle.
Well, I had to get to the course, so I devised a rig that would stick the handle under the seat, I'd secure it with my bike lock, and I ended up with a golf trailer.
I got funny looks on my way to and from the course. But I got there, and I played. And played. And played.
If it wasn't for that old garage sale cart, I'd never have been able to play this game we all love.
-
Push/pull carts at private courses are definitely a regional thing. The west coast was always more amenable to them. I think the reason for this is that caddies were the preferred method back East for much longer.
As for speed of riders vs walkers, it really doesn't matter unless you are one of the first groups out. After a while the pace is what it is and a walker can keep up just as well as a rider. Also, it never feels as slow when you are walking. In a cart, you get to your ball and sit. If you're walking, you get to your ball and have a significantly shorter wait if any.
-
I think we are also trying to compare apples and oranges when it comes to the divot debate.
My first reaction was... these guys are idiots.
1. How does a walker repair a divot without a sand bottle? Up north, the fairways are bentgrass so you "replace" the divots... not fill them up with sand like with bermudagrass.
2. You can land an airplane on a bermudagrass fairway and not do any damage. But do golf carts track and rut up bentgrass fairways?
All of us might want to mention what kind of grass exists in our fairways and roughs before weighing in on this topic (which, I might add, has turned out to be very, very amusing).
Roger, who's the idiot? Assumptions are always dangerous. I walk. I have a speed cart. I'm a member of a private club. Last Sunday I played in 3 1/2 hours. And finally, I carry a full size sand and seed bottle which I am able to fill at three separate points in the round and rarely come in with sand left.
Divots are not replaced. They don't take well and the birds flip them over to get the worms underneath. The divots go in the rough where a rotary mower can cut them up.
Golf carts create damage in the winter months when the fairways are wet.
The course is Rye/Poa/Bent.
-
My club has two courses (separated by several miles) and two policies. I won't go into the history of and reasons for that, but at the more prestigious and busy of the two courses, you cannot bring your own pull cart; you must rent one of the clubs' for $10. The killer for me is that the rentals are black Sun Mt. speed carts, and I have owned one since before we acquired that course, yet cannot use it. Aarrgghh...
At the other course, you may use your own cart, and I'm now about 50-50 on carrying vs. using a pull cart. I don't care about the stigma; I'm 56 and in very good shape, but my back hurts if I carry more than a couple of days a week. It's just the way it is.
-
I think we are also trying to compare apples and oranges when it comes to the divot debate.
My first reaction was... these guys are idiots.
1. How does a walker repair a divot without a sand bottle? Up north, the fairways are bentgrass so you "replace" the divots... not fill them up with sand like with bermudagrass.
2. You can land an airplane on a bermudagrass fairway and not do any damage. But do golf carts track and rut up bentgrass fairways?
All of us might want to mention what kind of grass exists in our fairways and roughs before weighing in on this topic (which, I might add, has turned out to be very, very amusing).
Roger, who's the idiot? Assumptions are always dangerous. I walk. I have a speed cart. I'm a member of a private club. Last Sunday I played in 3 1/2 hours. And finally, I carry a full size sand and seed bottle which I am able to fill at three separate points in the round and rarely come in with sand left.
Divots are not replaced. They don't take well and the birds flip them over to get the worms underneath. The divots go in the rough where a rotary mower can cut them up.
Golf carts create damage in the winter months when the fairways are wet.
The course is Rye/Poa/Bent.
Mr. Cosgrove,
I think you misread my post. With the benefit of hindsight, it wasn't written very well. I was trying to make a point that folks were arguing over maintenance on two very different grasses. My first reaction, after hearing that walkers take better care of the course was, "How can walkers repair divots when they don't have sand bottles?" Then I realized that I have been on bermudagrass for so long I forgot what its like to replace a divot on bentgrass (not rye and poa). And I think if you take a poll... divots are still replaced at most facilities... especially those 2 foot long bentgrass beaver pelts.
I am on your side... read my earlier posts on this thread... you friggin' "genius." :D
-
Let me tell you a cart story - hopefully it'll make you smile.
I grew up in Tonawanda, NY - a suburb of Buffalo. I have 3 brothers, my mom never worked, and my dad worked for the State of NY. We weren't poor by any means, but we didn't have much money left over for non-essentials.
My dad got me hooked on golf, and our town had two fun munis, one of which, Sheridan, held the '62 USGA Publinx. The other one, Brighton was about 3.5 miles from my house, and a yearly pass cost $65 if you were under 19 yrs old.
I didn't have a car. But I did have a 3-speed bike with a saddle seat. I also had a really ugly pull cart that was built like a tank. This thing had a large fake golf ball at the end of the handle.
Well, I had to get to the course, so I devised a rig that would stick the handle under the seat, I'd secure it with my bike lock, and I ended up with a golf trailer.
I got funny looks on my way to and from the course. But I got there, and I played. And played. And played.
If it wasn't for that old garage sale cart, I'd never have been able to play this game we all love.
Dan, this patent isn't yours by any chance, is it?
Title:Bicycle attachment for trailering a pull-type golf cart Document Type and Number:United States Patent 5482304
Abstract:A trailering device (10) for being secured between a bicycle (12) and a pull-type golf cart (16) such that as the bicycle (12) is ridden, the pull-type golf cart (16) is pulled behind. The trailering device (10) includes a connecting rod (26), a bicycle attachment member (32) secured at one end of the connecting rod (26), and a golf cart attachment member (54) secured to another end of the connecting rod (26). The bicycle attachment member (32) is releasably securable to the bicycle seat post (14) and the golf cart attachment member (54) is releasably securable to the golf cart (16) at the frame (18) or handle (20).
-
This is an honest question. Do cart fees cover the cost and a payback on the carts themselves and the construction and maintenance cost of the paths?
I don't think clubs should make room to store someone's personal pull cart for the price of bag storage. Maybe double the bag fee? People would still be getting a deal versus mandated pull cart rental.
In my view, carrying is golf at its simplest and the way nearly all of us grew up playing. A private club should never charge to walk and carry, but should consider limiting the times to support a caddie program or cart play uniformity for certain time blocks. Divot fill and pickup should be part of the morning maintenance work. Many cart players don't fill divots regularly particularly after sorry shots :-X So there is plenty of divot followup to do in addition to walking golfer divots.
-
This is an honest question. Do cart fees cover the cost and a payback on the carts themselves and the construction and maintenance cost of the paths?
I don't think clubs should make room to store someone's personal pull cart for the price of bag storage. Maybe double the bag fee? People would still be getting a deal versus mandated pull cart rental.
John, that's what we do at our club - double storage rate for bag of clubs + pull/push cart. No charge for using your own Sun Mtn cart.
-
My original response to this thread was made with reference to the southwest U.S.A. I am sure there are regional and even local differences. Obviously, the cultural practices in the UK are different as well.
Mark Smolens,
I am not offended at the least by what you believe and say. My experience is obviously different than yours. I do believe that people are entitled to their opinions, but at the same time, I think some opinions are much better than others.
Bill McBride,
Unless you are arguing that riders relative to walkers are slower over their shots, how do you make sense of what you state? I am sure you have heard of the accordion effect in roads and highways. Perhaps riders are inefficient in their use of carts because they're going to have to wait for their next shot anyways.
I will wager your favorite drink on the following: a match at whatever stakes, doesn't matter who are partners, you, Eric Smith, my son, and me in any riding configuration you like (2 to 4 carts) first off at the Dunes; the same next day except we walk, carrying, pulling, or pushing. Which do you think would be faster? With most people I play with, slow and fast players, riding would probably cut at least a half an hour.
It goes without saying that if the group in front of you is on a five hour round and you can't get around them, it probably doesn't matter if you're riding or walking. But if that group is finishing in three hours, very few walkers I know can keep up. I've never played with a group (foursome) of walkers in the U.S. which could finish comfortably in 3.5 hours. I've done it many times with riders. At a high volume private club in north Texas, there are big $$$ wolf games played by fivesomes starting late weekday mornings which typically play in well under four hours. As they should, the walkers give way when these riders approach.
John Shimp,
Do you think that clubs put in cart paths and operate a fleet to generate a loss? In many parts of the U.S., could a club operate without having carts for its members or customers to use? Do cart paths serve other purposes than just getting "lazy" golfers on their motorized carts from point A to point B?
As to your expectations of daily maintenance practices, in today's economy, I am thankful when the greens are mowed. BTW, assuming that walkers and riders are equally prone to hitting "sorry shots", what do you think is the probability that a divot is going to be sanded by a walker who carries no sand as opposed to rider who does? Or are you suggesting that riders are less consciencious than walkers?
Jason M,
I walked Jack Rabbit on an early morning in June a few years ago and I was drenched in sweat within a couple of holes. My friend Scott Smith at Northgate walked nearly always year round and he said that one gets used to the humid heat. I am glad to hear that your club allows pull carts. I am surprised. I've heard that Lakewood in Dallas is also doing it. I talked to the membership director a couple of weeks ago at Great Southwest GC in Grand Prairie about walking and pull carts, and she said no to both (riding carts are required during weekend and holiday mornings, pull carts are never allowed- "too muni"). Needless to say, I remain a free agent.
-
I noticed at Bandon that pull/push carts are starting to become very popular. I saw a few people take them across the greens like they do in Australia. A question for the superintendents out there- Do you like this as it spreads out the traffic or would you prefer them off the greens?
I tried one a couple of weeks back for the afternoon round of a 36 hole day, and enjoyed it. Only tipped it over once.
-
I have never taken my push cart across a putting green -- tho I have so far had no qualms about taking it up onto a tee. I am also wondering what the superintendents on this site think about the practice? I recognize that my bag and push cart weigh much less than I do with my bag across my back. My guess would be that the amount of weight dispersed across the three wheels would not adversely affect the green, but I would like the input from someone more educated than I before I consider doing so. Would the amount of moisture in/on the greens factor into the equation?
-
Dude!
I did the same thing growing up in Miami. Mom would give us a fwe bucks on Saturday morning to go play a round at the Maimi Lakes Country Club's (now the Don Shula Golf Club) "exective" course. To get there, we'd bike-lock out pull-cart's handle to the end of our Huffy bike's "banana" seat and trailer-tow our clubs to the course.
What great memories... :)
Let me tell you a cart story - hopefully it'll make you smile.
I grew up in Tonawanda, NY - a suburb of Buffalo. I have 3 brothers, my mom never worked, and my dad worked for the State of NY. We weren't poor by any means, but we didn't have much money left over for non-essentials.
My dad got me hooked on golf, and our town had two fun munis, one of which, Sheridan, held the '62 USGA Publinx. The other one, Brighton was about 3.5 miles from my house, and a yearly pass cost $65 if you were under 19 yrs old.
I didn't have a car. But I did have a 3-speed bike with a saddle seat. I also had a really ugly pull cart that was built like a tank. This thing had a large fake golf ball at the end of the handle.
Well, I had to get to the course, so I devised a rig that would stick the handle under the seat, I'd secure it with my bike lock, and I ended up with a golf trailer.
I got funny looks on my way to and from the course. But I got there, and I played. And played. And played.
If it wasn't for that old garage sale cart, I'd never have been able to play this game we all love.
-
Lou,
Golf is a tough business. People make lots of investments that don't work out with all the right intentions and expectations. I asked a simple question of whether carts make a good return for clubs on the cart leases and on the paths. I was looking for facts on cart returns not questions.
Do you know the answer?
-
John,
I once asked a Putt-Putt operator in somewhat of an incredulous tone whether keeping his courses and game rooms open 24/7 made any business sense. He was a good friend at the time and he replied with some degree of sarcasm and contempt that no, he did it just so he could lose money. Years later, a common acquaintance told me that this guy is considered by the franchisor to be the top operator in the nation.
Your question appears to be more of a statement (that carts are not economically justifiable). My suggestion is that the fact that they're so prevelant and that the management companies are nearly unanimous in their advocacy speaks for itself. And while current experience demonstrates that relatively few things are failure proof, under most "normal" conditions, carts do provide a considerable benefit to the bottom line with profit margins reported in the 40% to 70% in my part of the country. Of course, given the fixed cost nature of the fleet, infrastructure, and operations, the higher the utilization, the more profitable they are.
Maybe Sean Busch if he is following this can address the financials from a broader and more detailed perspectives. Perhaps Chris Cupit can provide some numbers from his experience.
-
Wussies?!?!?
Dude...I'm an ENGINEER!...and I was 10...I thought it was sheer brilliance! ::)
Dude!
I did the same thing growing up in Miami. Mom would give us a fwe bucks on Saturday morning to go play a round at the Maimi Lakes Country Club's (now the Don Shula Golf Club) "exective" course. To get there, we'd bike-lock out pull-cart's handle to the end of our Huffy bike's "banana" seat and trailer-tow our clubs to the course.
What great memories... :)
Let me tell you a cart story - hopefully it'll make you smile.
I grew up in Tonawanda, NY - a suburb of Buffalo. I have 3 brothers, my mom never worked, and my dad worked for the State of NY. We weren't poor by any means, but we didn't have much money left over for non-essentials.
My dad got me hooked on golf, and our town had two fun munis, one of which, Sheridan, held the '62 USGA Publinx. The other one, Brighton was about 3.5 miles from my house, and a yearly pass cost $65 if you were under 19 yrs old.
I didn't have a car. But I did have a 3-speed bike with a saddle seat. I also had a really ugly pull cart that was built like a tank. This thing had a large fake golf ball at the end of the handle.
Well, I had to get to the course, so I devised a rig that would stick the handle under the seat, I'd secure it with my bike lock, and I ended up with a golf trailer.
I got funny looks on my way to and from the course. But I got there, and I played. And played. And played.
If it wasn't for that old garage sale cart, I'd never have been able to play this game we all love.
You guys were wussies. ;) I carried them on my back while riding my Schwinn one-handed...the hard part was riding in spikes because your feet would sometimes just fly off the pedals...
-
We are responding to the wishes of the membership and whatever income loss resuklts is more than outweighed by the good will created by giving the membership more true choices.
nomination for great thought of the year!
-
Evan
Wussies?!?!?
Dude...I'm an ENGINEER!...and I was 10...I thought it was sheer brilliance! ::)
Evan,
I remember another engineering marvel, found in the GCA archives:
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/Monterey/IMG_1138.jpg)
-
Lou,
Golf is a tough business. People make lots of investments that don't work out with all the right intentions and expectations. I asked a simple question of whether carts make a good return for clubs on the cart leases and on the paths. I was looking for facts on cart returns not questions.
Do you know the answer?
In 2006, our last full year open (that's shocking), we spent $50,400 on a cart lease with a maintenance contract. Cart revenue was $256,000. If you allocate electricity and cart staff labor the revenue far outweighs the expense. Cart path construction for 18 holes was around $350,000 and the cart barn was around $400,000 so even allocating depreciation doesn't even come close. We considered removing our cart paths but felt it was unfair to our elderly, infirm, out of shape members and their guests to lock the carts in the barn every day it rained the night before. I understand this at places like Bandon and Whistling Straits or even a new private club just opening. But removing cart paths at an established club is really tough on the old, existing membership (unless, of course, the secret plan is to get rid of them or to preserve your course when it is wet and vulnerable).
-
My opinion on the subject has recently changed. Growing up playing junior golf there was nothing worse than a pull cart. Although I always championed walking, I carried that idea with me for years. My mind was forever changed while living in the UK. After joining a club on the outskirts of London, I noticed that the majority of members, regardless of age, used them. I was then very surprised to see that a large portion of the fields at other club's Open events were also using them. I had never seen low handicap players use pull carts, but it made complete sense with the events being 36 holes in a day. By the end of the summer I had used one on more than one occasion when playing 36 or more in a day. My St Andrew's trip would have consisted of a lot less golf without one.
I think it may take awhile for the stigma attached to their use with younger players to diminish, but all in all I think they are a good thing. It is quite obvious watching just about any 1st tee in the US that the majority of those heading out could use the walk.
-
Push cart has become my favorite way to play.
-
It was hot, and I was hungry...not wait, that's a line from "Real Genius"...but it was hot...
EvanWussies?!?!?
Dude...I'm an ENGINEER!...and I was 10...I thought it was sheer brilliance! ::)
Evan,
I remember another engineering marvel, found in the GCA archives:
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/Monterey/IMG_1138.jpg)
-
My two cents.... I ran an upscale daily fee in Stafford, VA from 1997 to 2001 with a Japanese owner who insisted we keep the carts on the paths. With a high slope and rating you can imagine what we went through on a daily basis to keep it 4:40 or faster. I lived pace of play for 5 seasons... charts and graphs and the whole nine yards.
Roger:
If you ran the course I think you're talking about, I can imagine that you had pace-of-play issues to think about. I played a lot of golf there in the mid-90's; the key was to get as early a time as possible, though that was pretty difficult.
PS: Lou Duran is absolutely correct that a fast player will play faster with a cart -- there's just no question about it, and such players solve any inefficiencies resulting from having two players in the same cart. I suspect that those same inefficiencies could make riding slower for certain already slow players, especially if it's paths only, but those guys are gonna be slow anyway.
-
Lou,
Golf is a tough business. People make lots of investments that don't work out with all the right intentions and expectations. I asked a simple question of whether carts make a good return for clubs on the cart leases and on the paths. I was looking for facts on cart returns not questions.
Do you know the answer?
In 2006, our last full year open (that's shocking), we spent $50,400 on a cart lease with a maintenance contract. Cart revenue was $256,000. If you allocate electricity and cart staff labor the revenue far outweighs the expense. Cart path construction for 18 holes was around $350,000 and the cart barn was around $400,000 so even allocating depreciation doesn't even come close. We considered removing our cart paths but felt it was unfair to our elderly, infirm, out of shape members and their guests to lock the carts in the barn every day it rained the night before. I understand this at places like Bandon and Whistling Straits or even a new private club just opening. But removing cart paths at an established club is really tough on the old, existing membership (unless, of course, the secret plan is to get rid of them or to preserve your course when it is wet and vulnerable).
Charlotte Country Club recently did just that, removed the cart paths. Will be interesting to see how it plays out given the backdrop of the current economy.
-
Roger,
Thanks. Glad to know we have a big profit center in that.
-
There is absolutely no question that carts are faster than walking. I know a number of five and six-somes who can play in three hours and under, often playing for considerable sums of money. Given equal concern for the speed of play and similar playing ability, it is no contest.
There absolutely is a question. Indeed, unless a course has excessive green to tee distances I think you are flat out wrong. But that's for a different thread.
Generally I'm on your side, Mark. Another situation (beyond the excessive green to tee issue) in which carts might be faster for a particular group, however: hilly course and golfers in poor physical condition (I'm not talking physical disability, such as a heart condition).
-
There is absolutely no question that carts are faster than walking. I know a number of five and six-somes who can play in three hours and under, often playing for considerable sums of money. Given equal concern for the speed of play and similar playing ability, it is no contest.
There absolutely is a question. Indeed, unless a course has excessive green to tee distances I think you are flat out wrong. But that's for a different thread.
Generally I'm on your side, Mark. Another situation (beyond the excessive green to tee issue) in which carts might be faster for a particular group, however: hilly course and golfers in poor physical condition (I'm not talking physical disability, such as a heart condition).
Hey! I resemble that remark!! :D
-
The industry has to change its thinking. Clubs need to at least offer times when members can walk. We have to encourage players to play golf the "way" they wish to play. It makes little sense for clubs to spend $millions on Health & Fitness Club then require golfers to ride in a cart. Walkers actually play faster than riders. The 3-wheel "push" cart is easy to use, has a place for a sand bottle, and an umbrella "holder" so you can open your umbrealla (protect from sun or rain). This is a great way to play golf. Charge a minimal fee, or an annual 'push cart' fee just like club storage, or add $X's to the annual club stoage for annual use of the 3-wheel cart. I like the one golf course super's comment that he is for anything that keeps the E-Z-Go's off of the turf. Go to Scotland and see how quickly you will play the Old Course walking. The Scot's play much quicker and spend more time in the 19th hole as a result.
-
Our family played at Bandon last November. If we had not been using pull carts I (age 62)would not have been able to play 5 rounds in 3 days (only 1 on Saturday), and my wife would not have been able to play at all. I too believe that the "average" walking foursome will normally play faster than the "average" riding foursome.
-
Eric - I believe you owe me royalties for the use of that photo. ;)
-
I've observed two things about walkers vs. riders.
1) If carts are allowed on the fairways, two people in a cart can play faster than walkers and one person in a cart can play much, much faster than a walker.
2) The slowest groups on a course of mixed walkers and riders are always riding in carts.
I've seen singles in carts finish a round in 1:40-1:45 on a housing-development course that you couldn't jog around any faster than that, never hitting a shot. And I personally have played nine holes in under an hours shooting 50-something and holing out every putt, the first summer I ever played golf. There is no faster way to play golf than as a single on an empty course driving on the fairways.
So basically carts make fast players faster and slowpokes slower. I posit that every group of golfers has a pace at which they "want" or expect to play their round and carts (on fairways) provide the opportunity to extend that range in either direction versus just plodding along at a walking clip.
P.S. Carts on paths only is so slow and infuriating (on most course layouts) that I can't see how anyone ever has the patience for it. There's often more total distance walked by a cart-paths-only rider than by a walking golfer, especially for a double-digit handicapper who is not a straight hitter. I frankly find the quite common arrangement of both "carts only" and "no walking allowed" idiotic as it benefits no one and creates a pace of play nightmare.
-
I have an observation from Thursday.
Laura and I went out for a quick post-work 9 holes. Started on the 10th hole. Saw a twosome in a cart on the 9th tee and we decided to go for it, but play quickly (walking).
The guys in the cart ended up playing the back 9, but we never held them up. And our back nine has a long walk between the 15th green and 16th tee due to wetlands preservation.
We complete our loop in 1:30 and go to have a drink at the bar. Turns out the guy behind me was a friend with a guest. My friend couldn't believe we were playing so fast.
Now, if I, walking at 49 and with much weight, can keep in front of a 5-handicapper and his friend in a cart, ANYBODY that's reasonablly healthy can do so.
This walking vs riding thing just doesn't work out in the real world.
We Americans need to act more Scottish and get our tails in gear, and if a tricycle cart helps, so be it!
-
I have an observation from Thursday.
Laura and I went out for a quick post-work 9 holes. Started on the 10th hole. Saw a twosome in a cart on the 9th tee and we decided to go for it, but play quickly (walking).
The guys in the cart ended up playing the back 9, but we never held them up. And our back nine has a long walk between the 15th green and 16th tee due to wetlands preservation.
We complete our loop in 1:30 and go to have a drink at the bar. Turns out the guy behind me was a friend with a guest. My friend couldn't believe we were playing so fast.
Now, if I, walking at 49 and with much weight, can keep in front of a 5-handicapper and his friend in a cart, ANYBODY that's reasonablly healthy can do so.
This walking vs riding thing just doesn't work out in the real world.
We Americans need to act more Scottish and get our tails in gear, and if a tricycle cart helps, so be it!
Come on guys... this is a personal issue. You cannot say "guys in carts" vs. "me walking." A lot depends on your own individual style of play. With carts on the fairways... I can ride and play 18 twice as fast as I can walk 18. Its not even close. Now I have members at my club who I can beat for 18 holes if I walked and they were alone in their own cart on the fairways.
But saying walkers are faster than riders... please. You need to think about your OWN style of play. Are you faster walking... or riding on the fairway? Answer that for me.
-
Roger:
You're exactly right. A lot of people -- including me -- play faster with a cart than when they walk because they are very quick (in all respects) over the ball, and so the walk in between shots slows them down considerably vs. riding.
-
Different culture across the pond. My brother in laws caddie used a pull cart at Portmarnock.
(http://img.skitch.com/20090404-dh97aft63uw5g3n4dmftypfcj4.jpg)
-
Mike,
My caddy used one at Royal County Down. Pull/push/motorized walking carts seem to be embraced in Northern Ireland, and at the very best courses. We need to get our head out of our asses on the issue here in the US.
And in general, clearly on a wide open golf course any number of players can play faster in a riding cart, no doubt. But to me the issue is whether or not during the course of normal play do walkers slow down the course, I'd argue they don't. JMO.
-
Mike, Sam:
The same is true down here in Argentina; if you own a cart and use a caddy, the caddy will push/pull your cart. When I show up at certain courses *without* a cart, I get some funny looks from the caddies.
-
My club has always encouraged walking. I'd estimate that about 15% of our rounds are walkers who carry their bags, 35% are riders and 50% use push carts (trolleys). My experience is that unless there is only one rider in a cart, the walkers almost always play a faster round. Typically, when there are two players in a cart they drive to the first player's ball and the second player sits in the cart and doesn't go to his ball until after the first guy hits, cleans his club puts it back in his bag, fixes his divot and gets back in the cart and then drives to the second guy's ball. By then each walker has already gone to his ball and hit (or is ready to go.) Walkers at our club usually play ready golf simply going straight to their ball and hitting it. Riders don't because they want their bag with them rather than taking a bunch of clubs off the cart and carrying them ahead to their ball. Also, riding carts are not allowed within 30 yards of a green so the riders spend time walking back and forth to their carts while the walkers just go the straight route. When we play a four ball with two walkers and two riders, inevitably the walkers are waiting for the second guy in the cart to hit and the riders rarely wait for a walker. I note that our teeing grounds are close to the preceding greens except for one hole. Riding would be faster on courss where the tees are distant from the preceding greens.
This morning we were the second group out. The first group was a twosome: the club champ and another scratch golfer. Two of their regular playing partners didn't play because of the bad weather. They usually walk, but rode today I assume because of the rain. Their foursome often plays just ahead of us and both groups play between 3 Hrs 40 min and 3 hrs 55 min. The club strongly encourages all rounds to be sub 4 hrs. When any of us play as a twosome and get out first in the morning we play in less than 3 hours walking. Today my foursome played in 3' 40" . The riding twosome played in 2' 55"... no faster than they would have played had they walked. We took approx 355 strokes collectively. The twosome I'm sure took less than 155 strokes. I know this is not scientific, but my experinece tells me that in most cases, at least at our club, 4 walkers are not slower than 4 riders.
-
As Shivas Irons said in Golf in the Kingdom, "The gemme is meant for walkin' "
(http://media.philly.com/images/20090405_tr1ukgolf2_400.jpg)
In the USA, the game is meant for revenue.
-
As Shivas Irons said in Golf in the Kingdom, "The gemme is meant for walkin' "
In the USA, the game is meant for revenue.
In many cases, you're correct. But, I assume that you wouldn't be first in line to develop and operate a golf course with an anticipated ROI of zero, correct?
Joe
-
The game has lost its way. Don't you get upset when you see teenagers and young healthy adults riding carts on the course? I realize that developing a new course is about money and that running an existing course is about money. The culture of golf should include walking. In the USA, it no longer does- for the most part. Those private clubs and public courses that encourage walking should be commended. Getting back to the topic, pull/push carts or trolleys should and can be encouraged. As far as private clubs in the USA are concerned, there is still a stigma about their use which, hopefully, is being lessened and can be used for income if creatively done.
-
Steve,
We're in agreement.
I'm lucky enough to be able to visit some very good private clubs. It always amazes me as to how uncomfortable the whole private club/ caddy/ protocol thing is for me, even after exposure. I think it must be my blue collar upbringing along with growing up on a lower end public course. I didn't, and still don't need much to enjoy golf.
Joe
-
perhaps someone can explain to me how PUSHING a cart that weighs at least 15 pounds - which is how much some/most/all? of these new push carts weigh - is easier than me PULLING around my cart like i did yesterday that weighs 2 pounds at the most
-
perhaps someone can explain to me how PUSHING a cart that weighs at least 15 pounds - which is how much some/most/all? of these new push carts weigh - is easier than me PULLING around my cart like i did yesterday that weighs 2 pounds at the most
I can't imagine why you need anyone to explain anything. If pulling is easier for you, then pulling is easier for you. Or am I missing something?
Joe
-
"perhaps someone can explain to me how PUSHING a cart that weighs at least 15 pounds - which is how much some/most/all? of these new push carts weigh - is easier than me PULLING around my cart like i did yesterday that weighs 2 pounds at the most"
I think its the third wheel and the inflated tires in place of the solid wheels. With a sun mountain or bag boy 3 -wheeler you can push it with one finger. I don't know anyone who has tried a 3 wheel push cart that would go back to a 2 -wheel pull cart. Either type is pretty easy though.
-
"perhaps someone can explain to me how PUSHING a cart that weighs at least 15 pounds - which is how much some/most/all? of these new push carts weigh - is easier than me PULLING around my cart like i did yesterday that weighs 2 pounds at the most"
I think its the third wheel and the inflated tires in place of the solid wheels. With a sun mountain or bag boy 3 -wheeler you can push it with one finger. I don't know anyone who has tried a 3 wheel push cart that would go back to a 2 -wheel pull cart. Either type is pretty easy though.
thanks Stewart...i will have to give it a try sometime
-
Paul,
The three wheel push carts, even if they weigh 18 lbs plus bag, are much easier to handle than the pull cart in my experience.
The ergonomics of a push cart are much better and although uphills can be tough, they are way easier than a pull cart trying to rip your arm and shoulder off.
The clicgear 2.0 I use it great, I would highly recommend it.
Whether you push a cart or pull one, at least you are playing golf the right way!