Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Chip Gaskins on March 28, 2009, 09:16:14 AM
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I played Black Creek in Chattanooga a couple of days ago.
Trying to hit that back tier with a 3 iron is not very easy!
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3471/3392310266_ca345a5bc3_b.jpg)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3637/3392310384_5f898ba3a7_b.jpg)
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Chip, did you try to fly the 3-iron onto the back tier or run it through the swale? How firm and fast was the course playing?
That is a lovely evocation of the Biarritz, in a great mountain setting. We need to think about a Chattanooga Dixie Cup. I haven't been back there since I blew the transmission in my '61 Austin Healey there in 1965, en route to a party weekend at Sewanee! ::)
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Chip,
When you say it's hard to hit with a 3 iron, do you mean flying it to the back plateau, or running it there? I imagine both shots would be difficult, but for me, I would be landing on the front with a runner....I'm not good enough to fly anything to that back pad!
Joe
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Chip,
you know the question we all really want to know the answer to is did you fly that 3 iron all the way back to the back plateau or try running it in? ;D
Really cool looking green though
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It had rained 3-4 inches in the preceding few days so everything was completely underwater. I was the only person on the course. The owner, Doug Stein, came out to the course to meet me and is a fantastic fantastic guy. He had a vision for Black Creek and I think he nailed it. I have never played a Raynor course and was suppose to play Lookout Mountain yesterday morning but got rained/fogged out. I can say I do love the shapes of the greens much more than I thought I would. The sharp edges and squared off green complexes actually add a new dimension (in my mind at least) to minimalist.
I played the back tee and it was 203 to the middle of the green. I would be lying if I said I was trying to fly it to the back pad but that's what happened and the green was wet enough it stayed on.
Here are a couple more pics:
Back tee at #17 (205 yard Biarritz)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3659/3392355596_7d0fd11de1_b.jpg)
A very cool version of a reverse Redan. Another 3 iron pull hooked up on the bank to the left and trickled on to the green 15 feet from the pin...pure luck. (picture taken from behind the green)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3619/3391545381_18be1faff0_b.jpg)
#11
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3629/3392355688_9710896519_b.jpg)
Punchbowl green on blind par 5
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3625/3391556993_d96f6d35fb_b.jpg)
#16
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3454/3392355818_78f900d4c0_b.jpg)
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Chip,
Thanks for the reminder of this course and for posting the pix. Now that I am on the east coast Black Creek is one I would like to see.
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Chip,
What's the pedigree of this course? What type of club is it?
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Lou:
Website says private, residential ...designed by Brian Silva.
Bart
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I've never played a Raynor course or a Raynor 'tribute' course. But simply from the pictures, I do not like the unnatural look of squared edges and sharp geometrical features.
Of course that has nothing to do with how it plays. Just a personal view on how unpleasing it looks to my eyes.
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Here are a couple of pictures from 2007. The ball on the green is not mine, I missed the green to the left and was happy to walk away with a 4.
(http://i437.photobucket.com/albums/qq95/pritchettmark/BlackCreek-HonorsCourse020.jpg)
(http://i437.photobucket.com/albums/qq95/pritchettmark/BlackCreek-HonorsCourse021.jpg)
I enjoyed Black Creek and would recommend anyone to seek out a game there.
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Here are a couple Pictures I have, not sure of exact hole numbers....
#2-3 (par 3)
(http://i643.photobucket.com/albums/uu159/neveuxdav/Black%20Creek/IMG_8086.jpg)
Here is another of the "reverse redan" hole,
#7 (par 3)
(http://i643.photobucket.com/albums/uu159/neveuxdav/Black%20Creek/IMG_8093.jpg)
Looking back at the Large Punchbowl 6th, which is generally a blind 2nd / 3rd
#6 (par 5)
(http://i643.photobucket.com/albums/uu159/neveuxdav/Black%20Creek/IMG_8094.jpg)
The Green sits behind this mound
(http://i643.photobucket.com/albums/uu159/neveuxdav/Black%20Creek/IMG_8089.jpg)
#10 (par 4)
(http://i643.photobucket.com/albums/uu159/neveuxdav/Black%20Creek/IMG_8106.jpg)
(http://i643.photobucket.com/albums/uu159/neveuxdav/Black%20Creek/IMG_8107.jpg)
(http://i643.photobucket.com/albums/uu159/neveuxdav/Black%20Creek/IMG_8109.jpg)
#17 (par 3)
(http://i643.photobucket.com/albums/uu159/neveuxdav/Black%20Creek/IMG_8328.jpg)
(http://i643.photobucket.com/albums/uu159/neveuxdav/Black%20Creek/IMG_8333.jpg)
I felt that at times the front nine was a bit cluttered and constricted feeling by the housing, but what can you do? You don't get this feeling on the back at all!!
A very unique (at least it was for me) course, I love how the shapes of the greens and bunkers are very concise and bold, i.e. the squared off bunker / green edges. Plenty of old school design i.e. biarittz, reverse redanish, ect. Also note a pretty easy walk although I did suffer a wicked bloody nose....
(http://i643.photobucket.com/albums/uu159/neveuxdav/Black%20Creek/IMG_8118.jpg)
Cool course, cool setting (minus the houses).
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A friend played in the US Mid Am that was played here a few years back, and said if you landed it all the may back it wouldn't hold, but landing in the front, it couldn't get all the way back..
From these pics it looks like long is a disaster.
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I have never quite understood what is attractive or good about that type of green...can anyone educate me?
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I've never played a Raynor course or a Raynor 'tribute' course. But simply from the pictures, I do not like the unnatural look of squared edges and sharp geometrical features.
Of course that has nothing to do with how it plays. Just a personal view on how unpleasing it looks to my eyes.
Have you been to Forsgate Banks?
Raynors work fits into the ground better than it appears this one - which really pushed the engineering looking envelope. It does look fun.
The good Banks holes at Francis Byrne are more like Raynor.
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I agree with Michael, those shapes really do not work at all for me. I've seen some squared off greens that work, there's something about the setting that just screams "WRONG!" to me. Maybe its the way those geometric bunkers frame it?
Seeing that is almost enough to make me pine for Desmond Muirhead!
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This hole reminds me of a par 3 at Tamarack CC in Greenwhich CT which is a CH Banks course. Its been many years since I played there but my recollection is that it is the 11th or 12th and is also long (200-220 range) with a similar swale, perhaps more toward the front, and a similar shape. Anyone have a photo of that hole?
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I think the idea of a Raynor "tribute" course is a neat one, esp. on a public course if done correctly. It may seem crazy to most public golfers at first but in the long run those greens can't be worse than the usual tight muni hole.
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I enjoyed Black Creek. The setting (other than the houses on some holes on the front) and golf are delightful.
Part of my enjoyment was seeing BC as a Raynor satire. I think Silva was having a bit of fun with Raynor, pushing his style to the edge and maybe beyond. Which I thought was really cool.
But it also raises the question I wondered about at the time. How do you do a tribute course to someone who did tribute courses to CB MacDonald, who in turn did tribute holes to various UK models? The regressions get crazy. But that too was part of the fun at BC.
Bob
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Nev,
Did the course play as firm and fast as it looks in your pics?? If it played as fast as it looks, I can only imagine how much fun that round must have been on a course like BC.
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I enjoyed Black Creek. The setting (other than the houses on some holes on the front) and golf are delightful.
Part of my enjoyment was seeing BC as a Raynor satire. I think Silva was having a bit of fun with Raynor, pushing his style to the edge and maybe beyond. Which I thought was really cool.
But it also raises the question I wondered about at the time. How do you do a tribute course to someone who did tribute courses to CB MacDonald, who in turn did tribute holes to various UK models? The regressions get crazy. But that too was part of the fun at BC.
Bob
I suspect that's why some here who wax euphoric, or perhaps even orgasmic, about MacDonald/Raynor courses and holes, find Black Creek too 'manufactured' for their tastes. The holes appear to be a lot more created than perhaps overlaid on the terrain, although I personally see a lot of manufacturing skill on the MacD/R courses I've played and seen.
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I have to say that I like what I see in those pictures a great deal.
From my perspective, if a decision is made to go geometric, which is a very valid and historically cognizant choice, then I'd much rather see BOLD and DEFIANT features than timid and flaccid ones.
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Chip (and Bob C and Mike C et al), you have much more catholic tastes than I - and I mean that as a compliment. I wish I could enjoy/appreciate the wider range of courses and styles that you do. While you'll rarely find me slagging any course or any architect around here - I am in no position whatsoever to critique anyone's talents or decisions - I find the geometric shapes make the whole enterprise (the course, the golf, golfing) far too self-conscious. And that Mike is no doubt right about the historical precedence/homage doesn't mitigate that self-consciousness for me in this case (whereas perfectly round pot bunkers, for example, somehow do).
Peter
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Peter,
That's an interesting perspective and criticism.
Certainly, any art form seems best expressed as something primal and reactive and impulsive....as if some creative impulse just stirs within and seeks physical manifestation.
But, part of me wonders if all art isn't craft? And that simply some craftsmen are better at hiding their steps than others? ;D
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Mike - thanks. My first reaction is that in fact all art worthy of the name is indeed mostly craft. When Stravinsky was asked where his 'inspiration' came from, he said: "I'm not sure whether it comes from the sub-conscious or the supra-conscious, but I'm sure it doesn't come from the self-conscious." Yes, he was talking about the spark, the impulse, the creative intention. But that inspiration has to be made manifest and real (in sound or words or earth) for it to be shared, and the only way it can be made manifest is through the craft, the skill of the artist with the medium of his art. And for that skill and craft to be used to serve the "self-conscious" seems to me to defeat the purpose. But again, I grant that it must be a matter of my (more limited) tastes.
Peter
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Black Creek is pretty high up on the list of courses I hope to play someday. I am not ashamed to say I am one who waxes euphoric about the Macdonald/Raynor style. I personally love the geometric look of the bunkers and greens, especially juxtaposed with the mountain scenery. Furthermore, I think that if I were to pick a "look" for a golf course to dovetail with the look of the houses on it, the BC "look" is pretty good.
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Peter,
The late Harry Chapin used to quote Stravinsky as coining the gem, "Great artists steal...bad artists borrow."
I'm not sure whether Igor was indeed the original source of this truism, but if he was, it would seem to indicate to me that even a great artist is all too self-aware of his sources, his methods, and the constructs of his craft. ;D
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Mike - Now I'm confused... Actually, it's amazing we don't confuse eachother more often...
Maybe it all comes down to WHAT the artist is stealing. (Steal from Colt and Fowler, I say)
And maybe, if they're very good, no one even notices the crime!
Peter
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Peter,
I'm no longer confused, and as far as Colt and Fowler, I'll certainly drink to that! ;D
I think it was George Harrison who rightly observed that rock and roll was just a bunch of guys stealing off of each other, and I believe there are clear parallels to GCA.
In any case, since we're probably confusing everyone else here, let's just agree to agree! :D
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I am not detached enough to be objective, I am sure, but I am tickled to see the conversation. One of the things I hoped would happen at Black Creek is that people would remember and debate the holes. I just haven't enjoyed holes that don't inspire a little argument, or at least thought.
One of my favorite reactions to Black Creek came from a three-time All-American collegiate golfer who said, "I love the shots I have to play, but I hate that bunker on the 13th fairway!" I asked why. He said, "It's right where you want to hit the ball! I'm going to hit a three iron off the tee and another three iron at the green just because of that damn bunker!" To which I said, "Why do you want to hit your ball in the bunker?"
Some guys- no matter how good they can hit the ball- just don't get it.
As to the squared off edges and greens, I like them. Look at some (not all, I'll admit) of the ancient pictures from Raynor's courses when they were young. A lot of that. I have Lookout Mountain's original hand drawn, hand colored plans- the greens have this same characteristic. They add an element not found with more, shall we say, artistically constructed greens. They seem to define the strategy in a new way for those who wish to pay attention.
One of the things I somewhat regret- although I doubt we would change it if we could do it again- is that the 17th (Biarritz) hole is not 300 yards long. That would be the modern equivalent of the Biarritz holes Raynor built in the '20's- a driver par three. Can you imagine the screaming?!? It would be great.
I can't wait to see what Doak, Bahto, Keiser, Klein, and the whole committee come up with at Bandon Dunes in Old Macdonald. It's going to be great. I am sure it will be much better in some regards than what we have at Black Creek, but I am really happy with what Brian Silva gave us there. I never get tired of it.
This discussion makes me smile. This is what I hoped for. Thanks, Chip, for starting the thread.
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I hate to say this but it looks AND SOUNDS to me like Brian shoulda put the depth of the front section of that green in the back and the shallowness of the back section in the front! :)
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As to the squared off edges and greens, I like them. Look at some (not all, I'll admit) of the ancient pictures from Raynor's courses when they were young. A lot of that. I have Lookout Mountain's original hand drawn, hand colored plans- the greens have this same characteristic. They add an element not found with more, shall we say, artistically constructed greens. They seem to define the strategy in a new way for those who wish to pay attention.
From your experience, do players also find the squared off edges a bit confusing? We're so used to hitting to rounded, softer areas that I think the dramatic lines might cause a bit of discomfort or indecision.
I love the look of the course and really admire what you have down there. Bold and looks like an incredible amount of fun to play.
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The depth of each plateau is virtually identical. Front pad is 29 paces, swale is 9 paces, and rear pad is 28 paces. Total green depth is 66 yards. From the back tees it can play 175 the first day, and 235 the next. I prefer the back hole locations to fully "enjoy"....Like Doug said above, the original concept was a driver-par 3; not the high, cut 4-iron many of the Nationwide Tour players feather back there. How times have changed....
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Scott Witter:
Thanks for those green-space depth dimensions. I was just looking at the first photo and it's very deceptive that way apparently. I know the hole is long but I would think close to 30 yards would be enough depth to allow a well played shot to fly back there and hold somewhere on that back plateau. Not that that should be a must but it would be at least a good high risk option to design in and offer.
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I've played Black Creek several times and it's a blast.
The winner of the State Mid Am(54 holes) shot ~ -12,winner of the State Am(72 holes)shot ~ -20,and the Nationwide guys shoot nothing.
I've played with really good players who hated it,really good players who loved it,really bad players who hated it,and really bad players who loved it.Usually,their only reason is that they think Black Creek is "different".I guess it just depends on your attitude toward "different".
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One of my favorite reactions to Black Creek came from a three-time All-American collegiate golfer who said, "I love the shots I have to play, but I hate that bunker on the 13th fairway!" I asked why. He said, "It's right where you want to hit the ball! I'm going to hit a three iron off the tee and another three iron at the green just because of that damn bunker!" To which I said, "Why do you want to hit your ball in the bunker?"
Doug, I had a former USGA Mid-Am champion say something similar to me about the 16th hole when we were there for the US Mid-Am.
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Doug -
Thanks for joining in. I hope you are doing well.
Agreed that a good Biarritz needs a flat-faced club of some sort. But pushing it back to 300 yards might be bit much.
Silva's over the top interpretation of Raynor/CBM/UK features reminded me in some ways of MacK's over the top holes at his original ANGC. Both designs were/are commentaries (take-offs?) on the history of gca. The day we played BC, Mike Young, John Stiles and I wondered how many people would get that. We concluded, not many. Which is a shame.
Bob
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Any thread that pulls Scott Wicker and Doug Stein out of the woodwork is okay by me. Doug's stewardship of Lookout Mountain and vision at Black Creek are commendable. Scott keeps Black Creek firm and fast after the spring rains subside - check out his interview on this site, which also features a profile of Black Creek.
I'd drive to Chattanooga just to play the 17th again. While it never gets mentioned on such lists, Chattanooga is one of the truly great golf cities in the country thanks to giants like Lew Oehmig and Jack Lupton among others.
Mike
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What a bold, artistic looking course! I love it!
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As to the squared off edges and greens, I like them. Look at some (not all, I'll admit) of the ancient pictures from Raynor's courses when they were young. A lot of that. I have Lookout Mountain's original hand drawn, hand colored plans- the greens have this same characteristic. They add an element not found with more, shall we say, artistically constructed greens. They seem to define the strategy in a new way for those who wish to pay attention.
From your experience, do players also find the squared off edges a bit confusing? We're so used to hitting to rounded, softer areas that I think the dramatic lines might cause a bit of discomfort or indecision.
I love the look of the course and really admire what you have down there. Bold and looks like an incredible amount of fun to play.
I have not had one comment about that.
The most confusing shot on the course is the approach to #2. Sometimes people hit at #3 green- which confuses me!
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I was just looking at the first photo and it's very deceptive that way apparently. I know the hole is long but I would think close to 30 yards would be enough depth to allow a well played shot to fly back there and hold somewhere on that back plateau.
If you are playing the proper tee it's not too difficult to hold the back section.
I wish it was.... we should have made it 300 yards.
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The most confusing shot on the course is the approach to #2. Sometimes people hit at #3 green- which confuses me!
I had to take a look at the routing. I can see why that confuses you. It would me too. I like the way you get a look at the short green on the way by.
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Any thread that pulls Scott Wicker and Doug Stein out of the woodwork is okay by me. Doug's stewardship of Lookout Mountain and vision at Black Creek are commendable. Scott keeps Black Creek firm and fast after the spring rains subside - check out his interview on this site, which also features a profile of Black Creek.
I'd drive to Chattanooga just to play the 17th again. While it never gets mentioned on such lists, Chattanooga is one of the truly great golf cities in the country thanks to giants like Lew Oehmig and Jack Lupton among others.
Mike
It is impossible to overstate the influence of Jack Lupton on this town. This city went from hellhole to paradise in 20 years thanks to his commitment and vision, and lack of ego. And thanks to the fact that Jack liked golf, the golf in this city is comparable to anyplace, and much better than many larger markets nearby.
The Honors was his vision. Not mention his money.
Never settling for less than the best, he hired David Stone.
David Stone trained Scott Wicker (who is the best in my opinion).
The whole operation functions without jealousy or intrigue, and influences how the rest of Chattanooga golf functions.
Sometimes it's impossible to thank someone like Jack Lupton, because it just can't be overstated- but his influence on my life is immeasurable, and he did not even mean to do so. He certainly was not thinking about me. But I wouldn't be posting on Golf Club Atlas if not for Jack Lupton- and I am not exaggerating.
Jack's health is flagging, and I have done all I can to thank him, which is not much.
But if Charles Blair Macdonald deserves a statue, Jack Lupton deserves 10 statues, at least around here.