Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Ally Mcintosh on February 17, 2009, 06:40:04 AM
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Is there any basic equipment or testing technique that a layman (i.e. me) can get his hands on for the purpose of measuring firmness of turf on a golf course?
Thanks for any help,
Ally
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I have seen our super use a pocket knife on the greens.
Anthony
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Is there any basic equipment or testing technique that a layman (i.e. me) can get his hands on for the purpose of measuring firmness of turf on a golf course?
Thanks for any help,
Ally
It's called a 'foot' Ally.
Basically what you do is lean forward and place more weight on 'preferred' foot. Next apply a little more weight on said 'foot'.
At this point you should be able to determine how firm the ground is. People have been doing it for hundreds of years. :D
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Ally:
If you're talking about measuring firmness from a "playability" standpoint, I certainly think there's a simple way to test it by getting a good player to go out in the fairway and hit a couple of good full wedges or 9 irons at the green. If you get a light dent for a pitch mark they are of really good firmness--ie "ideal" to me. If the shots break the turf, bring up some dirt and the ball spins back it's probably too receptive (for some types of architecture). If the shots do not leave an identifiable dent the green is probably too firm.
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I'm talking about means of comparing firmness on one course to another...
...A scientific means.
A 'firm' equivalent of the stimpmeter would do fine beacuse it's a fairly easy tool...
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I'm talking about means of comparing firmness on one course to another...
...A scientific means.
A 'firm' equivalent of the stimpmeter would do fine beacuse it's a fairly easy tool...
This is something for Dave Peltz. You could drop a 15 pound bowling ball from 5 feet then measure the depth of the indentation.
Anthony
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Ally:
The USGA has now developed and patented a device they call the "Thumpmeter" that measures firmness of greens and such somewhat the way their patented "Stimpmeter" measures green speed.
I've been told that some of the TOUR pros have gotten pretty good at determining the firmness of the greens they are about to play by simply dropping balls from arms-length on putting greens.
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the USGA has a device that we called the "thump-o-meter", it essentially measures the cor of the area tested, it provides very detailed data
it was interesting to see the comparisons between green areas on the course and helped regarding the watering schedule
my understanding is that the USGA agronomists used this device at all of their championships last year
my guess is that someone here will have a more detailed description
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This was in the Green Section record last year...
http://www.usga.org/turf/green_section_record/2008/mar_apr/Firmness.pdf
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This was in the Green Section record last year...
http://www.usga.org/turf/green_section_record/2008/mar_apr/Firmness.pdf
Thanks Eric.
I saw that tool but realised that there was no way I could get my hands on it... Hence the question... Was there an interim simplistic method of taking these measurements / providing some analysis... This development surely cannot be the first time its been thought of?
Ally
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Eric:
Thanks for posting that article by Bob Brame on the USGA's "Thumpmeter." I find the entire article to be very well presented and quite explanatory about all this device is trying to accomplish and also not accomplish. Personally, I very much agree with the way they seem to be going about it and the goals they are trying to acheive with it.
For starters, it appears they are careful to explain that the data derived from this piece of equipment should be used site specificially (and not be transported from course to course). For that reason I hope they never release some data barometer that can be transported from course to course such as we all know stimpmeter readings (greenspeed reading in terms of feet) can be and have been.
It looks to me like the USGA "Thumpmeter" is a whole lot more expensive than the Stimpmeter and for that reason alone will probably never be prevalently used by clubs on a regular basis! ;)
The other thing I really like about that article is it does point out a basic correlation between turf health and dryness and firmness.
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Ally:
Believe me, what I said about testing the firmness of a green's surface by hitting shots to it and analyzing the pitch mark works just fine using the method I mentioned in post #6. We've used that just fine in recent years. The only thing it lacks is it is generally done on one green and therefore is not so useful as that USGA "Thumpmeter" for creating firmness consistency on all the greens of the course. But supers are pretty good at getting that inline.
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Ally,
The scientific term for this sort of firmness or elasticity is the "coefficient of restitution"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coefficient_of_restitution
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Ally,
The scientific term for this sort of firmness or elasticity is the "coefficient of restitution"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coefficient_of_restitution
A colleague of mine a few years back was using one of those Calloway drivers with too high COR, so I changed the name from "coefficient of restitution" to "cheats opponents regularly" in this spoof article including video to shame my co-worker into changing to a legal driver:
http://darwin.chem.villanova.edu/~bausch/golf/espngolf_fritz.html
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Measuring firmness from course to course? Oh no...here we go...first we had the green speed race...and now the firmness race.....with readings posted daily no doubt?
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Measuring firmness from course to course? Oh no...here we go...first we had the green speed race...and now the firmness race.....with readings posted daily no doubt?
Or, one person who's curious about all our talk about firm conditioning, and wanting some context.
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Measuring firmness from course to course? Oh no...here we go...first we had the green speed race...and now the firmness race.....with readings posted daily no doubt?
Or, one person who's curious about all our talk about firm conditioning, and wanting some context.
Thank you Joe.
Craig, I am in no race.... I am trying to do some study on the changing playing characteristics of the classic Irish Links courses....
Really, I am looking to compare modern with ancient which is virtually impossible when looking at firmness without speculating about the effects Irrigation, Drainage, Climate, Improved Turf Science and Maintenance etc... has had on each Links... So an aside is to compare modern with modern...
Firmness is only one of about ten characteristics I am looking at...
Still, taking your point, I would much rather see courses competing over Firmness than Green Speeds. Wouldn't you?
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Ally..can you compare modern with ancient? There are so many variables regarding fairway firmness...weather....equipment....expectations...
As for courses competing firmness versus green speed....I think they both have tremendous costs associated with them...and not just monetary costs.
But think about this...one of many things to think about....your membership might love the idea of fast greens, but hate that their drives roll on out into the rough and trees....so now what? Mow the rough lower? Cut some trees? I know at my course firm and fast is are dirty words...
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"The scientific term for this sort of firmness or elasticity is the "coefficient of restitution"
JohnK:
It is? With turf there's some kind of COR; or even with a ball that impacts turf?
Like a clubface or ball that come in contact with one another I realize there certainly is COR because they almost immediately return to their original pre-impact form after being momentarily deformed but I don't know that turf that is impacted by a golf ball has much of any elasticity or exactly returns to pre-impact form or "restitutes" ;) so I can't see how or why turf can be tested for some kind of COR data. ;)
But I'm no scientist or physicist, that's for sure.
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Ally..can you compare modern with ancient? There are so many variables regarding fairway firmness...weather....equipment....expectations...
As for courses competing firmness versus green speed....I think they both have tremendous costs associated with them...and not just monetary costs.
But think about this...one of many things to think about....your membership might love the idea of fast greens, but hate that their drives roll on out into the rough and trees....so now what? Mow the rough lower? Cut some trees? I know at my course firm and fast is are dirty words...
Craig, I don't think that you can compare Modern and Ancient in any realistic scientific way when it comes to 'firmness', as I said in my last post.
As for competing, it is you that brought it up. I flippantly suggested that I'd rather clubs competed over firmness than green speed but I understand that there are costs associated with both.
Let's just settle for "there should be no competing at all".
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I spent the week mowing greens at Torrey Pines for the US Open. The Jim Moore and Brian Whitlark of the USGA were in charge of going green to green before and after the mowers and rollers using the stimpmeter, the thumper and a soil moisture sensor. Every green was approached independently. If a certain green was stimping a little slower, they would make us mow it again. If a certain green was softer it would be rolled until the consistent firmness was achieved. Water was applied sparingly and monitored with the sensor. A challenge the USGA had specifically with Torrey was that the holes that are located closest to the ocean out on the bluffs were consistently softer and slower than the ones closer to the clubhouse. They usually required more preparation to achieve the consistency with the others. All in all it was successful and Im sure it will become more of a staple with championship golf.
The thumper is an expensive electronic device. But there is also a simpler and cheaper version that has been used for years. Its called a penotrometer. Its simply a pointed rod inside a tube. The top end of the rod is marked with inches graduations and goes down to 1/8". All you do is raise the rod to a marked height and drop it without pushing. The rod will penetrate the green surface and the depth can be read on the top end. Its not precise, but it is approximate and can give the super a good idea of firmness from green to green.
Just like the stimpmeter and greenspeed, any device used for determining firmness should only be a tool used by the super. These are tools used to achieve consistency. They are not speedometers and should never be a concern to a playing member.
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The thumper is an expensive electronic device. But there is also a simpler and cheaper version that has been used for years. Its called a penotrometer. Its simply a pointed rod inside a tube. The top end of the rod is marked with inches graduations and goes down to 1/8". All you do is raise the rod to a marked height and drop it without pushing. The rod will penetrate the green surface and the depth can be read on the top end. Its not precise, but it is approximate and can give the super a good idea of firmness from green to green.
Brilliant!
Thanks Ian
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I'm sorry, I said they named it the "Thumpmeter" but I forgot that particular name was already taken (patented or service marked) so they sort of informally refer to it as "The Thumper".
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According to the Wkipedia entry, there are a number of methods for calculating the COR.
The coefficient can also be found with:
COR = square root of h/H
for an object bouncing off a stationary object, such as a floor, where
h is the bounce height
H is the drop height
So I think this is the relevant measure. The fact that the ground deforms during impact is irrelevant. Here are some more details from the Wikipedia entry:
The COR is generally a number in the range [0,1]. Qualitatively, 1 represents a perfectly elastic collision, while 0 represents a perfectly inelastic collision. A COR greater than one is theoretically possible, representing a collision that generates kinetic energy, such as land mines being thrown together and exploding. For other examples, some recent studies have clarified that COR can take a value greater than one in a special case of oblique collisions[1][2][3]. These phenomena are due to the change of rebound trajectory of a ball caused by a soft target wall. A COR less than zero is also theoretically possible, representing a collision that pulls two objects closer together instead of bouncing them apart.
An important point: the COR is a property of a collision, not necessarily an object. For example, if you had 5 different types of objects colliding, you would have {5 \choose 2} = 10 different CORs (ignoring the possible ways and orientations in which the objects collide), one for each possible collision between any two object types.
Generally, the COR (e) is thought to be independent of collision speed. However, in a series of experiments performed at Florida State University in 1955, it was shown that the value of e varies as the collision speed approaches zero, first rising significantly as the speed drops, then dropping significantly as the speed drops to about 1 cm/sec and finally rising again as the collision speed approaches zero. This effect was observed in slow speed collisions involving a number of different metals.
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JohnK:
Thanks for that post. Now I truly know why I never had the slightest inclination to become a scientist and probably even why I essentially flunked Physics in school. I know about as much about physics as Pat Mucci knows about Pine Valley and/or its trees. ;)
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Ally...no, I understand were you are coming from in your desire to understand if we can compare one era with another....
What the USGA is doing with their Thumper scares me. They will collect data, and ultimately that data will make its way into the public's thought process about course set up...and before long a member will approach a Superintendent and ask what their course "thumps" at.....the slippery slope of a "firmness" race will have begun...and I'm not sure golf needs that.
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There are compaction meters available that may help. Try Spectrum Technologies for a start
Soil Compaction Meters (3) types ranging form $300 to $1,800
Soil Compaction meters (often called penetrometers) are used to determine the density of soil and other material. An operator pushes a rod with attached (ASAE standard) cone into the ground. The resistance of the cone is displayed as it is pushed in the ground.
Features a stainless steel rod with depth marks of 3,6,9,12,15 and 18 inches. Analog gauge reacts to pressure applied to cone while penetrating soil.
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Larry,
I didn't know you were also a Viagronomist......
Impressive!
;D
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Larry,
I didn't know you were also a Viagronomist......
Impressive!
;D
This thread is getting better and better. "THE THUMPER" and now VIAGRONOMIST in the same thread, the early front runner for thread of the year.
Anthony
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Maybe someone will post about how magnesium stiffens your blades?
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USGA Agromists measuring firmness on Sunday morning at Torrey
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Comparing stimpmeter readings has lead to much harm with the speed race and raising costs.
Should the measurements be categorised? For example you should only compare your own readings with similar golfcourses. Categories could be measured with total elevation change within the greens ie. Greens internal contours should be measured and then courses would be divided into groups.
First group would have internal contours from 0 to 2 feet, 2nd group 2 to4 and so on...
Would this help players to understand the differences between courses and greens?
Ville
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No No No No No No No No No No
What a golf course is stimping should be of absolutely no concern to the golfer. How many times does it need to be said on here that the stimpmeter and the thumper is a tool used by greenkeepers to achieve consistency within their own greens. They are not speed gauges for greens. ESPECIALLY from golf course to golf course where every super is managing his greens differently, and even more so, stimping his greens differently.
Golfers have really got to get over this notion of needing to know what the greens are stimping at. Especially for purposes of bragging rights from club to club.
A real golfer knows the best thing to do is hit the practice green before the round.
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This is how I measure firmness of HVCC. If I have 150 yards to the center of the green and I hit my 100yd club then the course is firm. If I have to hit my 150 yd club then it is not firm and it is not golf. If I hit a wedge from 130 and it bounces on the green like a parking lot then Scott is doing his job as always.
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No No No No No No No No No No
What a golf course is stimping should be of absolutely no concern to the golfer. How many times does it need to be said on here that the stimpmeter and the thumper is a tool used by greenkeepers to achieve consistency within their own greens. They are not speed gauges for greens. ESPECIALLY from golf course to golf course where every super is managing his greens differently, and even more so, stimping his greens differently.
Golfers have really got to get over this notion of needing to know what the greens are stimping at. Especially for purposes of bragging rights from club to club.
A real golfer knows the best thing to do is hit the practice green before the round.
I used to get the question from members quite a bit..."how are the greens stimping"...my standard answer was "they are stimping very smoothly." As long as the greens roll consistant, it matters not what the speed is.