Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Tom Huckaby on December 22, 2008, 10:49:21 AM
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I played Bayonet yesterday - 2nd day the entire "new" course has been open. Since many have played the renovated front nine (it's been open for awhile now), I will not comment on that too much. Let's just do good news, bad news, as I see it about the course, with some details about the back nine. Sadly I have no pictures - that's not my thing - but maybe others can fill some in.
Good news:
a) conditions are very nice. Fairways run fast, greens are perfect and smooth and very firm, at least for now. A question remains on how one can improve drainage that was perfect already (they stated that improving drainage was one of the goals of the renovation, and it was indeed the best-draining course in all of NorCal before) but it looked as if they didn't screw this up at least.
b) #10 green is pretty cool and that hole is improved -they moved the entire green about 50 yards left of where it used to be, creating a gentle dogleg out of what used to be a pretty boring straight hole.
c) damn near every green has had SIGNIFICANT internal contour added to it. On a few holes, this works. On most, it's complete overkill. That is, a green with elephat humps in it is fine on a short hole, appears odd on a 480 yard par four. There's way too much of the latter.
Bad news:
a) it now costs $160 to play there on weekends. This is now the #1 champ for overpriced, not worth it golf in the greater Bay Area...and as you know there's a lot of competition for that.
b) the overdone fairway bunkering to be seen on the front nine just continues on the back. On damn near every hole, where there used to be rough and/or smaller trees, there is typically now a penal deep bunker complex.
c) they completely butchered the 11th, to the extent that I was literally speechless looking at it. OK so the old 11th might not have been everyone's cup of tea, is it pretty much required a tee shot bombed over trees, but it was darn unique, one that most with any sense of humor looked forward to playing. Now, they have moved the tee - and fairway - about 50-60 yards LEFT of where it used to be - the tee is now not that far from the 1st green - with a new fairway created over there to the left (where there used to be just forest). The result is a somewhat sharp dog leg left, but with a straight out tee shot with ZERO options available - just hit it straight, find the fairway. The green is in the same place as it was before, but has had significant contour added - this is actually pretty cool, as the hole is only 355 max. In fact it may be the best green on the course. But the tee shot is SO ruined that the overall effect of the hole is weeping, for us old-timers anyway.
d) #12 had been already butchered before; now they just took it to the logical extreme, adding a penal bunker complex in the left corner of the dogleg. This hole is very very difficult still, but now not even a shadow of its former uniqueness. The very soul of golf does continue to shriek.
e) The rest of the back nine is not all that changed, although just assume fairway bunkers are added on every hole. #17 par three has been moved 50 yards left of where it was - the entire hole - so now it fits nicely in the crux of the dogleg of #7 Blackhorse - god help the golfers on 17 green when tee shots on 7 Blackhorse are hit. They have planted some small protecting pine trees, but in the next decade while those grow, hardhats should be issued on 17 Bayonet green.
f) Did I mention it was overpriced? In the end, it's a very very very tough golf course, a lot more "fair" than it once was, and it will offer a fine test for pros and top amateurs. But they are trying to repackage this as a resort - a hotel is going in - and thus I don't get the point of what they've done. In the end, I used to love this course because it was so uniquely brutal (due to the incredibly over-forestation)... now, it's brutal again all right, it's just not very unique. I won't seek it out.
Note I saw a lot of Blackhorse also, and it's an odd thing there.... nearly all of the bunkers on Blackhorse have the rouugh, "frilly" edges - on Bayonet they are all cut unifornly (think ovals and circles). They seem to have purposefully set out to make the two courses very different in bunker styles. It struck me as strange...
I'll play Blackhorse in the spring, if not sooner, I'm sure. Hopefully they didn't kill the soul of that course... but they surely did on Bayonet.
TH
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I won't seek it out.
This, coming from Tom, speaks volumes. Tom, how wuld you compare what you saw to what Bates did up the road at San Juan Oaks. Better? Worse? And why?
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sounds like the course will NOT make a must play list Huck
thanks for your thoughts
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Tom,
That's too bad, I know how you used to feel about that place. The one thing it really had going for it was that it was reasonably priced for your market and now that is gone.
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So Tom,
I know I asked you this offline, but if we're just talking courses, assumming your the Donald and the price tag doesn't matter, where do you put it?
Here's a proposed ranking of publics only in the area.
1) Pebble
2) Spyglass
3) Spanish
4) Poppy
5) Old Del Monte
6) Pacific Grove
7) Monterey Pines.
I'm not sure whats public and private over in the Carmel Highlands area so for simplicity I've left those out.
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San Juan Oaks is a MUCH better course than the new Bayonet... it's prettier, more interesting, more fun, and if test is what it's all about for a golfer, then from the back tees it's all you need there also. The only thing Bayonet would have going for it MIGHT be conditions. SJO does get sloppy at times.
And yes, a big reason for going to Bayonet used to be that one got a test of golf, good conditions, at a pretty good price. The last part of that is now gone, big time. And in terms of test of golf, well that remains... just not in any really different way than any other course. So that too is not worth seeking out, for me anyway.
As for ranking the Monterey area publics, that's close enough for me, Kalen. I'd insert Bayonet in there somewhere after #4, hell conditions alone might make it fun for some people. Also Laguna Seca needs a place in there. Both courses at Rancho Canada likely bring up the rear.
TH
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Tom,
I pretty much agree with you on everything your saying regarding Bayonet. What a really great piece of sandy scrub property, which is in fact inland dunes not far from Sand City. A really great golf course too--or at least it used to be, that back nine especially.
I'm glad to see the back nine before they changed it, because Bayonet is about as solid golf as one could hope for--especially that back nine. I hate the fact that they have changed what didn't need to be changed. There really isn't any interesting, thought provoking strategies achieved with the new bunkering. It's all just so .....commercial.
While the conditioning of the courses is probably far better then one could have ever dreamed who frequent the course on a regular basis, I can't help but to think that they'll eventually regret it--especially at those prices. There are grand plans for that place--a huge resort. I believe it was a Fairmount Hotel if I'm not correct.
Hole #7 From the Tee
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v235/Tommy_Naccarato/Bayonet/_G101325.jpg)
Hole #6 Back Tee
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v235/Tommy_Naccarato/Bayonet/_G101323.jpg)
Hole #6 Front Tee
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v235/Tommy_Naccarato/Bayonet/_G101322.jpg)
Hole #5 From the Tee
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v235/Tommy_Naccarato/Bayonet/_G101321.jpg)
A hole on Black Horse, which is directly in back of #4 Tee on Bayonet
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v235/Tommy_Naccarato/Bayonet/_G101319.jpg)
#4 Up Close(r)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v235/Tommy_Naccarato/Bayonet/_G101318.jpg)
#4 Tee
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v235/Tommy_Naccarato/Bayonet/_G101317.jpg)
#3 From the Fairway
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v235/Tommy_Naccarato/Bayonet/_G101316.jpg)
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Tommy:
Are those pics from Bayonet? If so, from when? Man I just played there yesterday and I don't recognize a singloe hole from your pics.... except maybe one of #2.... man they have done a LOT more tree clearing since those pics were taken....
In any case, you're right about a hotel going in - nor sure which chain, but it's gonna go where the old driving range was... also throughout the course land has been cleared and a lot already graded for more houses to go in.
This course used to really have a soul. The back nine particularly was as funky and soulful as California gets. Now? The only word I can think of is antiseptic.
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Tom, they were taken in the first of March, Friday, March 7th to be precise and I'm sorry they are out of order.
I'll label the hole pictures.
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Tom, they were taken in the first of March, Friday, March 7th to be precise and I'm sorry they are out of order.
I'll label the hole pictures.
No hassles, thanks Tommy. Man it looks REALLY REALLY different now... and I have to believe at least one of those pics is from the Blackhorse course....
TH
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I had to play the holes out in my mind--thats how unmemorable some of them have become now--where the back nine is indelible in my mind! Go figure! ;)
Yes, there is one that is from Black Horse.
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Tommy:
WOW! Even labelling the holes as you did, I still can't make heads or tails of it as they have also re-done the routing (I think) from when you are there. But the main thing is they have done so much tree removal (primarily to clear land for future houses, but also to clear views) that it's just a completely different golf course now from what your pictures show. For example, nearly all the trees on both sides of #4 (201 par three from tips) are now GONE. To the right of that hole - the site of the former #9 fairway years ago - is all graded dirt, waiting to be filled with houses.
The rest I simply can't place, they are so different now. Other than yes that is a Blackhorse hole, the one one sees from the back tees of the current #5... in fact the tees of these two holes kind or overlap.
In any event, you nailed it. There is just not all that much that is memorable about the course - then or now. And it's sad, because at one point in time this course was as memorable as any on the Peninsula. And I do mean ANY. Of it might have been memorable in terms of hatred for most.. but memorable it was. Now?
TH
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Tom H. and Tom N.,
The honchos running Bayonet and Black Horse seem to think that they have something better than they do. It is my understanding that the terms and conditions of their and the City of Seaside's contract with the US Govt.
was that military personnel would have certain discounts available. The company in charge of the facility is now trying to charge higher prices and curtail the servicemen from playing Fridays and the weekend.
This is a big mistake. The corruption that went on with the takeover of the Fort Ord base is like something out of a third world country, or should I say, Chicago?
I cannot say I would like to spend time in an hotel in Seaside, no matter what the grade.
Bob
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Bob:
That is very sad re the removal of military discounts, but not surprising.
Also yes, the hotel there is going to have very stiff competition quite nearby. It all makes little sense to me.
TH
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Like Huck, I have no clue what golf course Tommy's photos are from and I've played Bayonet at least 20 times in my life. It looks to me like they've destroyed the history of the course in one fell swoop. There were some really good golf holes on the front, particularly #5 (or was it #6?), which was a brute of a par 4 with a long approach shot to an elevated green with lots of movement in the green. One of my career highlights was a birdie the last time I played it a few years ago.
It's clear to me that I would never want to play either of the 'new' Bayonet courses again, Poppy Hills is much better value and San Juan Oaks (which I really like) isn't all that far away.
What a pity. It used to be that Huck would rue the loss of the thick trees lining all the fairways, little did we know the golf course would be destroyed for the sake of upscale resort golf.
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Back in the day, as a NASA employee, we used to play either course for $6. I thought at the time Bayonet was worth it and Black Horse wasn't. Bayonet then was brutal, with the tree line being a penalty stroke with best case you getting to pitch out sideways (more often than not from your knees.) Combat corner (10-11-12) were brutal holes.
There is no way I go back there for $160, or $120, or $80, maybe $40.
Cheers,
Dan King
Price is what you pay. Value is what you get.
--Warren Buffett
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Mike: the old #6 is now #9, but with the fairway moved 100 yards or so to the left.. creating a dog leg right, in which they have also inserted penal bunkers on the left side, a new small grove of pine trees on the right (in the corner). So what used to be a brutal straight a 460 or so yard uphill hole is now a brutal pinched in dog leg. Note what used to be the #6 fairway is now all dirt, graded for houses. Sigh.....
Dan: I have posted in here way too many times over the years about my love for the brutal, totally unfair but totally unique old Bayonet. You summed it up correctly. Back way way back I tended to get discounts similar to you (friend was a military son) and so that might explain some of my bias... it was CHEAP! But I also did just love how unique it was. Combat corner was aptly named (though it was 11-12-13) ;)... and getting through that is less than 15 shots was also always damn fine golf.
It still is, I guess. It's just very little fun any more.
TH
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Thomas,
Thou protesteth too loudly. The completed nine that we played during the KP was very enjoyable and, in my humble opinion, a far superior version of what was there before. Regarding the new fee, you are absolutely right. It will be interesting to see whether they can make it hold. There's no excuse for "them" to be forcing out golfers with military credentials. Hopefully our benevolent government will do something positive about it.
Bob Huntley,
The unfortunate thing is that the type of horse-trading between the public and private sectors taking place at Fort Ord is the rule rather than the exception. We are seeing some very strange stuff here in SoCal with El Toro. And though the former Carswell AFB in Fort Worth now has a wonderful course (Hawks Creek) on what was formerly a non-descript base course, the fees are up and the military golfers have also been squeezed.
I don't know if it is corruption, but there is something inherently at odds when the public sector cozies to the private sector. My preference would be for the federal government to sell outright the decommissioned bases for market value subject to whatever encumbrances there are on the properties.
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Lou:
The front nine you played in spring is NOT what is there now. I'd be interested if your take would be the same if you played it again. But we discussed it before; my take does remain difficult for most to accept. It just does come down to uniqueness. What was once there was completely unique to the world of golf. What it's become over the years just tore all of that away, little by little, until what's there now might as well be anywhere.
I found it to be enjoyable, for sure - because ALL golf is enjoyable to me. But I will not actively seek out that course again. And those who know me know how strong a statement that is... hell I've played THE RANCH three times and will again without a doubt. Bayonet now just plain pisses me off.
TH
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I think some of you know how soft I can be for dear ol' Fort Ord. It was absolutely the best station the Army ever assigned to my father. It also was the place I was introduced to & fell in love with golf. I lived in the neighborhood adjacent to Combat Corner. I walked past & through the courses on the way to the middle school that overlooks #9 on Blackhorse.
Although I'm trying to remain optimistic, I am disheartened that it's possible the courses have lost their character. I was excited when the renovation work was first announced, hopeful that proper care & investment would enhance the courses.
Thanks for the updates. When I return to Monterey someday, I will still enjoy a round or two at Ord.
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I think some of you know how soft I can be for dear ol' Fort Ord. It was absolutely the best station the Army ever assigned to my father. It also was the place I was introduced to & fell in love with golf. I lived in the neighborhood adjacent to Combat Corner. I walked past & through the courses on the way to the middle school that overlooks #9 on Blackhorse.
Although I'm trying to remain optimistic, I am disheartened that it's possible the courses have lost their character. I was excited when the renovation work was first announced, hopeful that proper care & investment would enhance the courses.
Thanks for the updates. When I return to Monterey someday, I will still enjoy a round or two at Ord.
Nick:
Bayonet has lost its character like I have lost my once-slim body shape.
Those who know me know what I just said.
It's sad. Very, very sad... and most especially for those of us who played it way back when.
Or at least I think so. However, conditions are indeed improved. There are a hell of a lot more bunkers. Views of the far-off sea are improved due to the tree clearing. If you can focus on these things and not what once was, well then you may enjoy it. Lou seemed to like it, and I can't imagine he's alone in this. I just couldn't get past the feelings of what once was compared to what is..... But I am turning into a crotchety old curmudgeon.
TH
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Tom makes some good allusions to what I was wondering.
If you've never seen the place, never played it, what would a first time reaction be? I do wonder...but don't have $160 worth of wonderment. If it was half that, I may be tempted to give it a shot.
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Tom makes some good allusions to what I was wondering.
If you've never seen the place, never played it, what would a first time reaction be? I do wonder...but don't have $160 worth of wonderment. If it was half that, I may be tempted to give it a shot.
My feeling is only those for whom money really is no object will get past the price tag. It's just not worth $160 to play.
But if one can put that aside - and does have no previous knowledge of the course - then I do think it may be seen as enjoyable, at least for those who enjoy a very stern test, and wildly contoured greens.
TH
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again, based on the photos and the way the golf course has changed, they should have also changed the names of the courses. How about the Seaside Links at Fort Ord-The Pretentious and Expensive Champions and Seaside Links at Fort Ord-Almost as Pretentious but no Less Expensive?
That sounds a lot better than Bayonet and Black Horse anyway now that the history of the golf courses have been rewritten. I wonder if they still credit the original designer (he was a general in the Army, allegedly) or have redone that as well.
I just can't believe the changes as Huck describes them and Tommy's camera captured them, all the character is gone, the impossible tee shot on #2, the 600 yard par 5, the brutish #6 and probably the quirky uphill #3 as well. Bye Bye Bayonet, I knew yee when...
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I'll still pay $160 ONCE, because I have always wanted to play there. Since I never played the original I won't know any different!
PS: They allow "jeans" on the course? ;D
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A negative review by Huckaby; well, I guess it also got cold and snowed in Orange County (golf hell) this past week. The uniqueness of the older version shall be mourned. Can't recall being bludgeoned yet enjoying a round as much as a few times out there in the mid-90's. Would want to play this incarnation to judge for myself.
Is new #7 the old #3? Is new #4 the old #6?
Would love to see some photos labeling the "new" holes with the old hole #'s.
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(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v235/Tommy_Naccarato/Bayonet/_G101319.jpg)
This photo appears to show that they did do some serious grading (or is it called f#$&ing up?)
There were no holes on this course that the hand of man was ever this evident.
What I'm referring to is the obvious cut, down from the natural grade, easily viewed on the far right side near the first sprinkler and the right side and rear of green.
In the words of Uncle Boab, What a pity!
Speaking of Uncle Bob,
Bob, You could've substituted America's last hometown in your last sentence, too.
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PS: They allow "jeans" on the course? ;D
You pay that much, they'll probably let you wear a tutu.
Oh, and you can wear jeans, but I think "jorts" are not allowed.
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I cannot say I would like to spend time in an hotel in Seaside, no matter what the grade.
Bob
Bob
in 2002 my wife and I stayed at the Best Western at Seaside, that is on the beach (yes, literally ON THE BEACH). It was the National Bearded Collie dog show (at the showgrounds) and the hotel was full of dogs. It was a wonderful few days, my second best few days in Monterey. How did that hotel get approved ? (perhaps in a similar manner to the Fort Ord discussions).
However, Seaside itself didn't have much to inspire us. Especially compared to Monterey, Carmel and Pacific Grove (plus that enclave in between the last three towns). Interesting neighborly contrasts.
James B
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This photo appears to show that they did do some serious grading (or is it called f#$&ing up?)
There were no holes on this course that the hand of man was ever this evident.
To clarify, the hole in the photo that you are referring to is on the Blackhorse 18, perhaps that is why it is not recognizable as a hole from Bayonet ....
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Mike is correct - that is a hole on Blackhorse that Tommy pictured and Adam commented on. I didn't play Blackhorse but saw a lot of it (as you can from Bayonet). From what I could tell the changes weren't of the earth-moving variety, not much, but more the same as what went on at Bayonet: new greens, new bunkers, new grass, massive tree removal.
Jon (and Mike): well a lot of the brutality is still there, just in a different (and more common) form... it's now quite penal fairway bunkers that do the work of the old trees and underbrush. Heck in the end I really believe there will be far more Lous (who like it how it is now) than crazy me's (who liked it how it was before). I just will defend quite strenuously that the course is now completely devoid of charm or soul.
The front nine routing is completely changed. Also the holes look so different now from Tommy's pictures in March< I seriously couldn't recognize some of his pics. Think massive tree removal, some bunkers continuing to be tweaked, massive areas of dirt now graded for houses, streets added... it's just a completely different place now, and it's most glaring on that front nine.
Anyway here's how it goes now, new v. old. As I say I have no photos, but if you played it much before, you ought to be able to get it from this.
1 - same
2 - same - and Mike it is still brutal - oh not so much as the 80s as underbrush is gone, but it's still a very tough golf hole.
3 - old #9 - short par 4 uphill - fairway bunkers added
4 - old #6 - par 3 - pretty much the same, bunkers and green tweaked
5 - old #7 - short par 4 - cool unique green with back shelf lower than front GONE...
6 - old #8 - par 3 - green massively tweaked, elephant humps added, plus bunkering completely changed
7 - old #3 - somewhat the same, fairway bunkering added
8 - old #4 - still 600 yard par 5, but now massive fairway bunkering added... wait till you see this....
9 - old #5 - fairway moved way to the left, r to l dogleg created. Pine grove added in corner. Massive grading for houses on right, where old 5 fairway used to be. Street to service the houses by tee. Green in same place, but more bunkering added near green. Oh, fairway bunker on left as well. Stone bitch of a hole, as it used to be... but it's REALLY gonna be devoid of charm when those houses get added... play it now lest ye later puke.
The routing on the back nine is basically the same, although some directions have changed... I described all of this in my initial post on this thread.
TH
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I can't believe those jerks wiped out the old 7th green. The pin locations were sublime, for a hole of that length (especially the upper/front left).
Old #4 was a heck of a hole, sans FW bunkers. Always reminded me of 16 Lake; if you're left you can pray to God all you want, but even he can't help.
I don't like the idea of old #3 with FW bunkering and tree clearing. The dated version's RH side was so "unfair/penal/stupid/WTF" that at some level, it made sense from a strategic standpoint.
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Maybe this will help. Not up to date, but it does capture Bayonet's front nine.
(http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l77/nickc445/BayonetBirdsEye.jpg)
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Jon:
I believe you'll be ok with new 7 / old 3. It's not all that much different. The others, well... you're just gonna have to see for yourself. You won't believe new 8/ old 4. In fact I don't think there's anywhere for you to hit your tee shot there... you quite seriously might be best off laying up to 230 or so off the tee, taking the very penal fairway bunkers out of play. This on a 600+ yard golf hole....
And new 5/old 7 made me weep damn near as much as new 11 or new 12....
Oh well. RIP Bayonet, at least the crazy version you and I knew. Wait till you see all the streets, house plots, infrastructure...
And Nick, thanks. That does more or less capture the front nine of Bayonet. Just add some more "infrastructure" in the far left middle... a street going up to serve the house plots now in the triangle between the golf holes down there.... but the golf holes are all pretty much as is today.. more tree clearing done though.
One very big plus of the whole thing, which I have been remiss to mention, and which shows in the pic: they now have one hell of a great practice area.
TH
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I cannot say I would like to spend time in an hotel in Seaside, no matter what the grade.
Bob
Bob
in 2002 my wife and I stayed at the Best Western at Seaside, that is on the beach (yes, literally ON THE BEACH). It was the National Bearded Collie dog show (at the showgrounds) and the hotel was full of dogs. It was a wonderful few days, my second best few days in Monterey. How did that hotel get approved ? (perhaps in a similar manner to the Fort Ord discussions).
However, Seaside itself didn't have much to inspire us. Especially compared to Monterey, Carmel and Pacific Grove (plus that enclave in between the last three towns). Interesting neighborly contrasts.
James B
James,
How they got the approval to build on the beach is beyond me, but as I have said before, money moves mountains.
Local lore has it that there have been more "deep emotional experiences" at the Best Western on Beach than there have been at the Mustang Ranch.
Bob
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Local lore has it that there have been more "deep emotional experiences" at the Best Western on Beach than there have been at the Mustang Ranch.
Bob
Must be the crashing waves. Or perhaps it is the annual Rules Seminar that we conduct there. ;)
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Mike is correct - that is a hole on Blackhorse that Tommy pictured and Adam commented on. I didn't play Blackhorse but saw a lot of it (as you can from Bayonet). From what I could tell the changes weren't of the earth-moving variety, not much, but more the same as what went on at Bayonet: new greens, new bunkers, new grass, massive tree removal.
Jon (and Mike): well a lot of the brutality is still there, just in a different (and more common) form... it's now quite penal fairway bunkers that do the work of the old trees and underbrush. Heck in the end I really believe there will be far more Lous (who like it how it is now) than crazy me's (who liked it how it was before). I just will defend quite strenuously that the course is now completely devoid of charm or soul.
The front nine routing is completely changed. Also the holes look so different now from Tommy's pictures in March< I seriously couldn't recognize some of his pics. Think massive tree removal, some bunkers continuing to be tweaked, massive areas of dirt now graded for houses, streets added... it's just a completely different place now, and it's most glaring on that front nine.
Anyway here's how it goes now, new v. old. As I say I have no photos, but if you played it much before, you ought to be able to get it from this.
1 - same
2 - same - and Mike it is still brutal - oh not so much as the 80s as underbrush is gone, but it's still a very tough golf hole.
3 - old #9 - short par 4 uphill - fairway bunkers added
4 - old #6 - par 3 - pretty much the same, bunkers and green tweaked
5 - old #7 - short par 4 - cool unique green with back shelf lower than front GONE...
6 - old #8 - par 3 - green massively tweaked, elephant humps added, plus bunkering completely changed
7 - old #3 - somewhat the same, fairway bunkering added
8 - old #4 - still 600 yard par 5, but now massive fairway bunkering added... wait till you see this....
9 - old #5 - fairway moved way to the left, r to l dogleg created. Pine grove added in corner. Massive grading for houses on right, where old 5 fairway used to be. Street to service the houses by tee. Green in same place, but more bunkering added near green. Oh, fairway bunker on left as well. Stone bitch of a hole, as it used to be... but it's REALLY gonna be devoid of charm when those houses get added... play it now lest ye later puke.
The routing on the back nine is basically the same, although some directions have changed... I described all of this in my initial post on this thread.
TH
#2 The type of hole that influenced how you thought about the whole day. At long ago ancient q schools, I decided to hit 2, 2 irons and bounce it on the fairway level green. Did not ever want to mess with the 40 foot Hoovers on either side.
(new) #3 (old 9)This hole was always about the green. It was one of the hardest shots I ever had with a short iron, because I either hit it 10 feet above the hole *now having a lay up putt :D) or just enough spin to see it trickling back to the front. Never felt it unfair though. Did this hole retain the green slope?
new 4 (old 6) Looks like an improvement here. Was actually a breather hole for me in tournaments
New#5 (old 7) Hit everything from driver to 4 iron off this tee trying to find the perfect yardage to different pins. Was definitely a green that made a simple tee shot difficult. can't believe they gor rid of it :'(
New 6 (old 8) Always hated this hole. Used to lay up to front left fringe to leave some semblance of a chance to make 3. Green was too severe at tournament speeds and had one usable pin. Change here could be good if done well
New 7 (old 3) The tight corridor, and deceptive uphill second made it difficult to get a ball close even with a short club. The old front bunker was death, so it led to a lot of difficult little pitches from just off the back
New 8 (old 6) New bunkers look so wrong here. This was a great, long par 5 with a well shaped dog leg, that required 3 well thought out and well struck shots. Missing the fairway (even after the trees were raised up) often led to a mid iron 3rd shot to a deceptive and difficult to read green
New 9 (old 5) I believe old 5 was the best hole on the course. There was a small level area on the left landing area which still left a long approach. The slope in the rest of the fairway mad an already tough shot pretty scary. And the hole played about 40 yards longer than the yardage. Missing the green always left a difficult recovery, and other than what seemed to always be conditioning problems on this hole, it was a pretty straight forward green.
Sounds like overall they took a unique, quirky and at times goofy course and have made it "an Orange County"housewife. Eye candy, beautiful, but more than anything, a high maintenance, over-"worked" headache
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For comparative purposes, here are a few from Bayonet, circa 2005:
#2:
(http://cdn-314.homes.com/c1/cgi-bin/readimage/133563314)
Old #7, new #5 (I think):
(http://cdn-360.homes.com/c1/cgi-bin/readimage/133563360)
#11:
(http://cdn-590.homes.com/c1/cgi-bin/readimage/133563590)
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Pat:
Great comments. My guess is that if you had to play this course to make a living (as you did), well... on the one hand it's a hell of a lot more "fair" now, but on the other, the greens have been tricked up SO MUCH that I wonder it you would prefer it overall now or then? And I am talking about in terms of earning your livlihood by making a score on this course. What you gain in fairness off the tee, you lose big time in shots into and around greens and in putting.
To answer some questions:
new 3, old 9: they ADDED contour to the green.. made it more of a defined tier... but the main change is the addition of a fairway bunker.
new 6, old 8 - the green is MUCH more severe in terms of contour than it was, as it seems to have kept the general right to left, but added an internal elephant... if you hated it before you will despise it now.
new 9, old 5 - well said re how it was, but it's nothing like that at all anymore. RIP a great golf hole. It is still VERY tough, however.
In any case re all the rest, and how it plays for us not forced to make our living grinding out a score on this course, well... this does rather say it perfectly:
Sounds like overall they took a unique, quirky and at times goofy course and have made it "an Orange County"housewife. Eye candy, beautiful, but more than anything, a high maintenance, over-"worked" headache
BINGO!
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Mike B:
Thanks. You have all of those labelled correctly. RIP those quirky, overtreed, awfully brutally difficult, but oh so character-filled golf holes. Each of their replacements is perfectly fine, and perfectly forgettable... with the exception of #2, I guess, which still is a pretty damn good hole.
TH
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Pat:
Great comments. My guess is that if you had to play this course to make a living (as you did), well... on the one hand it's a hell of a lot more "fair" now, but on the other, the greens have been tricked up SO MUCH that I wonder it you would prefer it overall now or then? And I am talking about in terms of earning your livlihood by making a score on this course. What you gain in fairness off the tee, you lose big time in shots into and around greens and in putting.
To answer some questions:
new 3, old 9: they ADDED contour to the green.. made it more of a defined tier... but the main change is the addition of a fairway bunker.
new 6, old 8 - the green is MUCH more severe in terms of contour than it was, as it seems to have kept the general right to left, but added an internal elephant... if you hated it before you will despise it now.
new 9, old 5 - well said re how it was, but it's nothing like that at all anymore. RIP a great golf hole. It is still VERY tough, however.
In any case re all the rest, and how it plays for us not forced to make our living grinding out a score on this course, well... this does rather say it perfectly:
Sounds like overall they took a unique, quirky and at times goofy course and have made it "an Orange County"housewife. Eye candy, beautiful, but more than anything, a high maintenance, over-"worked" headache
BINGO!
I'm mixed hearing about the fairway bunkers. Sometimes, bunkers can add so much, but one of the things I thought was cool about the Fort was the LACK of fairway bunkers, and how the tee shots were still threatening without them
MORE contour on old 9 is scary, and if old 8 is that bad, I would simply drive past it to play the next hole, it must suck badly
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Sounds like overall they took a unique, quirky and at times goofy course and have made it "an Orange County"housewife. Eye candy, beautiful, but more than anything, a high maintenance, over-"worked" headache
You forgot to add: ...while also made for "Orange County" husbands, as a place to retreat, smoke a good Cohiba while telling lies how much their stock portfolios are worth.....
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On the nose again, Pat. That is EXACTLY what was cool about the old Bayonet - it was the toughest course in all of Norcal, and without hardly any fairway bunkers. The only other course like it was of course Olympic Club - Lake.. but of course that's where the similarities ended. In any case I keep harping on this, but it used to be unique - now it's just like most all other courses.
Re old 8, you may have to skip it. The green is pretty crazy now. :'(
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Sounds like overall they took a unique, quirky and at times goofy course and have made it "an Orange County"housewife. Eye candy, beautiful, but more than anything, a high maintenance, over-"worked" headache
You forgot to add: ...while also made for "Orange County" husbands, as a place to retreat, smoke a good Cohiba while telling lies how much their stock portfolios are worth.....
Or USED to be worth :-[
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Exactly my point! ;)
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I have to admit I'm with Lou although I should state that I have a personal bias. I haven't played the full new Bayonet, but I played both courses just before the renovation and the 1/2 and 1/2 mix a couple months ago and really liked the new versions MUCH better. I appreciate that the old courses were unique, but I found them to be stupidly hard, conditioned terribly and totally unenjoyable. Maybe I'm just not a good enough golfer to appreciate a course like that. I also didn't grow up playing the course and I don't have any emotional attachment. I did find one new hole (BH #12, I think) to be completely awful, at least the first time around, because I hit my shot exactly where I wanted and found myself in another fairway. Other than that, I thought it was great. $160 bucks great? That's a different issue, but my opinion of the courses still stands.
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I have to admit I'm with Lou although I should state that I have a personal bias. I haven't played the full new Bayonet, but I played both courses just before the renovation and the 1/2 and 1/2 mix a couple months ago and really liked the new versions MUCH better. I appreciate that the old courses were unique, but I found them to be stupidly hard, conditioned terribly and totally unenjoyable. Maybe I'm just not a good enough golfer to appreciate a course like that. I also didn't grow up playing the course and I don't have any emotional attachment. I did find one new hole (BH #12, I think) to be completely awful, at least the first time around, because I hit my shot exactly where I wanted and found myself in another fairway. Other than that, I thought it was great. $160 bucks great? That's a different issue, but my opinion of the courses still stands.
SB:
Totally fine, totally understandable. As I have written, many will likely share your opinion. I will be interested if you continue to have this opinion after you play the full new 18 at either course, however.... what you saw with the 1/2 and 1/2 is not at all what is there today... of course depending on how long ago it was. Did you see all the new streets and infrastructure and house plots permeating Bayonet?
In any case, my take comes down to this: I find nothing at all unique about what's there now. It used to be unique in every conceivable way. And in terms of difficulty, well it was stupid hard then, it's stupid hard now, just in a much more commonly-seen way.
TH
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I played in early August, and the roads and such were in. I only saw on place where it bothered me was the green on Bayonet 8, where the lots were pretty close to the green. Otherwise I didn't think they were a problem. Of course I'm used to development golf where I use the houses to straighten out my slice. I haven't played much norcal golf, but I found them very unique to my experience. It's also interesting as we usually have similar taste, as Pasatiempo and Riverbend in Fresno are two of my most enjoyable rounds.
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I played in early August, and the roads and such were in. I only saw on place where it bothered me was the green on Bayonet 8, where the lots were pretty close to the green. Otherwise I didn't think they were a problem. Of course I'm used to development golf where I use the houses to straighten out my slice. I haven't played much norcal golf, but I found them very unique to my experience. It's also interesting as we usually have similar taste, as Pasatiempo and Riverbend in Fresno are two of my most enjoyable rounds.
SB:
Many thanks for the explanation. I guess it comes down to that you had never seen the course as it once was. Compared to other development golf courses, well... this one comes off looking just fine. Man if you could have seen it how it once was....
Yours is a much more fair way to look at it. The course is what it is, NOW. Based on that and that alone, I would say it's very tough, with nice conditions, and some interesting shots to be faced. It does allow some nice far-away views of the ocean. Most will enjoy it, although higher-handicappers better practice their sand game and one and all better prepare for some putting humiliation.
I just can't possibly get over what once was. I'm sure you can understand.
And in terms of tastes, well... this course both old AND new is 100% the opposite of what I tend to prefer. But again, it was so damn unique that I loved it so.... as the ultimate paragon of the test of golf. Most hated it for just this reason. I definitely liked having it there, to keep one and all humble. It still SORT OF works for this... but no more so than a bunch of other courses. So yes, RIP Bayonet. Long live the new version.
I just do continue to see little reason to return.
TH
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Thomas,
I think the problem (s) you have with the "New" might have something to to do with what was there before at a very affordable price point and not the quality of the repositioned course.
As I noted earlier, I played the "old" Bayonet around the time of Benham's pictures, and while it was a good enough course, other than its location, it was nothing special. The maintenance meld was particularly bad and the architectural bones were not at a level that, in my opinion, deserved protection. The course was unnecessarily difficult due those evergreens and the high rough protecting very narrow fairways. I take your word that it was even harder before the tree branches were trimmed a few feet above groundlevel. With some allowances for the masochists amongst us, getting your brains beat is not fun at any price.
Perhaps the operators of the "New" Bayonet will find that the market won't support $160 green fees. I got a $75 gf at Chambers Bay (after 1:00) this October, considerably lower than a year ago when I passed on paying something closer to $200. Perhaps the price will settle closer to $60, and maybe then the changes won't seem so offensive.
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Lou:
Price does have something to do with it, for sure. But I didn't go there so many times, so long ago, for cheap golf. I went there because it was the ultimate exposition of the flaws in one's game. It was brutally unfairly penal; at the same time, it was quirky as all hell. It was all I hated in golf courses and all I loved, strangely all at once. Conditions were pretty damn good, btw.
A lot of that had been removed by the time you played it. What you saw did indeed have little going for it. Oh sure it was stilll tough... but 12 alone had been butchered so beyond recognition.. we're really not comparing to the same things.
So yes you shall just have to trust me, if you can. Getting beaten up at this very weird, very cool, very soulful, totally unique golf course, was indeed fun.
And to me, it's all gone. The course now is not special in any way shape or form.
And I'd say the same thing if they paid me to play it.
TH
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The bickering of what was, what is, you should have seen it then, what is now is really a bunch of chest thumping.
Sure, some yearn for days gone by, when the pro shop addressed everyone as "Sir" or "Maam" because they never really knew who it was in the civies ...
The issue of price does matter but so does the knowledge of what was once there. A wise man once said "Restorations are great but is the end result any better then what was there now".
A Bayonet, the new version is not the old, it is a creation of market research and years of customer opinion, from golfers used to walk in straight regimented lines. Time will tell if golfers like the new course, either architecturally or playability.
Unfortunately, the answer will be driven by the economics, many golfers may play it once for $ 160 (weekend rate) but can achieve 40,000 rounds a year at the price?
So if in 12 months, they cut the price to $ 75 per round, is that a reflection on the quality of the course or the economics of the facility?
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Well, it's not chest thumping for me at all.... I was always a civilian and was never addressed as "sir.". ;D
But the rest is quite wise.
And I find it very sad.
RIP Bayonet. Long live market-research created golf courses.
:'(
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Quality of the course or economics?
Both likely, but with several peers in the area, a good researcher may be able to come up with a good answer. Pebble Beach probably won't suffer as much because it is a marguee property. Ditto for Spyglass though to a lesser extent. But what about the economic impact on the next tier in the Monterey area?
There are three courses in Texas that had reputations of being brutally hard (Horseshoe Bay- Ram Rock, Cliffs at Possum Kingdom, and Waterwood before it was softened a bit). They were all highly rated but not all that many people enjoyed playing them. Most of us are not that good that we need to be brought to our knees to discover that fact. Thomas does have eclectic tastes.
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Lou:
Isn't there room in any golfer's heart for ONE COURSE that breaks all the rules?
I don't think I have eclectic tastes. I tend to hate courses that kick my ass too hard.
This was just the exception, for reasons already stated.
As for the economics of it all, that's not my bag. But it was an interesting indication that last weekend - the very opening weekend of the full 36 - with weather that was not at all bad - Blackhorse was a ghost town.. and my friend and I played Bayonet as a twosome at 8:00am... with no groups having started after us until we had played at least 4 holes....
TH
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Both likely, but with several peers in the area, a good researcher may be able to come up with a good answer.
The researcher won't have to look very far, check out the green fees for Laguna Seca, Rancho Canada, Pacific Grove and Poppy Hills.
You can try and make a comparison of green fees for those courses with their architectural merit to Pebble, Spyglass and Spanish Bay and you will see the challenge that they will have at Bayonet.
Out of town / resort play is not going to be the issue here, it is whether or not they will be able to define the correct price point for the locals (a relatively small golfing community with many many options and price conscious) and NorCal (price needs to be attractive when the largest customer base is 40 minutes away) golfers.
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Mike:
You're dead spot on (as I see it from the consumer side) as to how this all works.
However, does it change the equation when (if?) the hotel is built?
At that point they better damn well be hoping for resort/visitor play...
And that being the case, is the price now just an attempt to build buzz, compare to the courses inside the drive and other high-end upscales rather than the other publics, sell it in anticipation of what is to come?
I don't think it's gonna work and the ghost town I saw is gonna remain the norm unless price is reduced and/or one gets more bang for that high buck... I am just trying to figure out their thinking.
TH
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Thomas,
I meant eclectic in a good sense. I like people with diverse tastes and opinions. And I take it at your word that the real "old" Bayonet was very enjoyable for you.
As to economics, maybe it is not as big a deal in your part of the state, but things are coming unglued down here. The median home price in some areas has declined by over 40% year to year (I know there could be mix issues involved here) and the "experts" think the bottom is still six to eight months out. Commercial RE owners are lining up for a bailout. I haven't been to Pelican Hill or Trump-West, but I bet the tee sheet is wide open.
Mike,
Maybe Seaside or some other governmental entity will eventually get the property back at a reasonable price and will be able to price their rounds reasonably based on local and seasonal demand. The only upside in this mess is that sometimes other people's misery is some people's gain.
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Lou: understood. I just don't think eclectic tastes is why I loved this old course...
And things are pretty unglued here too - which of course makes it even stranger to overprice a golf course, doesn't it?
In any case we local golfers would love it if what you query Mike about comes true....
TH
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As someone who has played the Bayonet/Blackhorse for the last 30 some years at least 3 times a year I will miss it.
I played the combo of Bay/Horse and actually thought that they improved the Blackhorse side greatley. I am hopefule the the Blackhorse will be a better course in the long run.
But at $160 I will have to wait for NCGA specials and twilight rates.
I think they are going for the Pelican Hill crowd and they will probably get it. I would take the two new Bay/Horse courses over what I played at Pelican Hills for the money.
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As someone who has played the Bayonet/Blackhorse for the last 30 some years at least 3 times a year I will miss it.
I played the combo of Bay/Horse and actually thought that they improved the Blackhorse side greatley. I am hopefule the the Blackhorse will be a better course in the long run.
But at $160 I will have to wait for NCGA specials and twilight rates.
I think they are going for the Pelican Hill crowd and they will probably get it. I would take the two new Bay/Horse courses over what I played at Pelican Hills for the money.
That is the crowd they are going for, for sure. But then again, the carts do not have GPS, the refreshment and restaurant facilities are pretty spartan, and the views of the ocean are very far off (compared to Pelican). I'm just not sure that this crowd will think they are getting anything close to what they are used to getting....
As for Blackhorse, well I did not play it, but I have seen a lot of the redo... and well... it was quirky and short and weird and strange before, as you know.
It's now LONG and a little less of all of those things. One thing Blackhorse did need was improved conditions - it really was the bastard stepchild before. Now, conditions are wonderful... and I say that simply from what I did see. The frilly bunkers everywhere are interesting....
In the end whether it is improved or not depends on how much one valued it before. I don't know anyone who had much love for the bastard stepchild version.
TH
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Blackhorse was the crazy relative you don't talk about. There were a few holes worth something, but to be honest, I don't remember one hole, and I played 2 (3 round) tournaments there.
Bayonet was quirky, goofy, brutal, and different. BUT, there was always the availability of different strategies, and the course could be played very conservatively. Prior to q school, I played a Golden State Tour event and hit driver on the majority of the holes. I could drive it pretty well back then, and the Bayonet pummeled me 78-79. This was less than 2 weeks before 1st stage! I went home, bought an old MacGregor Eye O Matic 4 wood, and found an auto pilot 2 iron. The 4 wood seemed to have a built in draw, which as legend has it seemed to fit the old Commanding Generals lefty slice well :D And the 2 iron was money.
I hit driver 5 times (yes 5 times) in four rounds. I worked for two weeks on my long irons, and played the most conservative golf of my life. 4 bogeys, 3 birdies and 65 pars later I finished t3 to move to stage 2. I've never been so tired in my life. 10 years later, I hit driver about 70% and advanced through stage 2.
The course just made you think about every shot, and punished you if you did not think out and execute the shot. I'll miss the ol brute
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Blackhorse was the crazy relative you don't talk about. There were a few holes worth something, but to be honest, I don't remember one hole, and I played 2 (3 round) tournaments there.
Please, I have to go right now and be with a bunch of those. Did you have to remind me! ;)
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Lou:
Isn't there room in any golfer's heart for ONE COURSE that breaks all the rules?
Tom,
There must be one and I nominate the Stadium Course at PGA West. May be it's once in a lifetime but the pelthora of players struggling around the course had the feeling of an S&M parade down Polk Street.
Bob
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A playing review from a writer with the Monterey Herald.... I'm sure there'll be some rolling eyes about:
- "...Gene Bates still gave Blackhorse a visually intimidating look because he sprinkles bunkers so willingly. It's like he took a paint-ball gun and opened fire on each hole."
- "The best thing Blackhorse did during the renovation was eliminate blind shots."
Personally, playing the blind tee shots on Blackhorse's 9 & 10 are one of my strongest memories from my days as a junior golfer.
LINK:
http://www.montereyherald.com/kevinmerfeld/ci_11449918
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Interesting review. I don't wholly disagree with anything he says about Bayonet.
And from the holes I saw on Blackhorse he is right on about the sprinkling willy-nilly of bunkers... wait till you see some of these holes, Nick....
I kinda liked the blind shots at Blackhorse too though. May they RIP...
TH
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Well, I'm 35 years old... I guess it was about time I could properly use the phrase, "I remember when..." ;)
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After seeing these courses today, I was struck by how much was altered. My impressions are congruent with Huck's early posts on this thread. Every inch of character was removed from the uniqueness that was Fort Ord golf. Years of market research have obviously delivered a water downed finished product that can likely be found in almost every state. From the unneeded drainage collection areas to the bullshit contours in the greens. Bayonett was probably adversely affected the most. Black Horse might've actually improved. I played with a Military guy who paid $11 to play. He loved the Black Horse and was fascinated by my descriptions of what use to be there.
Major notes. Bayonet's 15th. The green that Jack Nicklaus 5 putted and walked immediately to the parking lot vowing never to return. It was sadly a simple two putt par today. (Even with the biggest swale in the way)
The next hole was one of the hardest test of driving, requiring a cut ball played all the way on the right side, just to be able to hold the fairway on the far left. The current emasculated version is barely sloped with another similar green to the 15 that preceded it.
The golf is not horrible golf. The masses will likely enjoy their time as long as value doesn't enter the equation. The conditioning and manicured grounds were a positive and showed a decent stewardship of the property, but, there were areas that had standing water in the middle of the fairway. Sad considering how well it drained before all that dirt was moved.
One last note. As I entered the fort from the Sand City entrance I was shocked to see a mile long line of cars trying to exit the fort. People from all the new homes built trying to get to work. How they could add all those homes and associated bodies and not change any of the entrances and exits is beyond inconsiderate.
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Who says that tour players don't know anything about golf clourse architecture? ;D This is one of the best things I have read in a long time.
*I found this on another forum. Not able to confirm it is real, but no reason to believe otherwise.
*don't think it has already been posted, couldn't find it in the search function.
Dear Mr. Bates,
After enduring four rounds of golf at the Bayonet course at Fort Ord for PGA Tour qualifying this past week, it has spurred me to correspond with you over the changes made at your directive. Let me first offer a muted apology for the ensuing paragraphs as you are unfortunately bearing the brunt of my seemingly endless trips around “updated” golf courses, and this was just the latest example of sheer ineptitude. While arguably not the most egregious effort of poor redesign I have been forced to stomach, it is unquestionably the most precipitous decline in a world class golf course I have witnessed to date, and for that you have attained an ignominious feat in golf course architecture.
Where to start? How to start? Go painstakingly over every square inch from first to last? Even I find that tedious before I get started. Let’s begin with my favorite pet peeve of your ilk and that is with your obsession with building greens and bunkers that force approach shots in onto downslopes. My recollection has you featuring this a staggering twelve times. Obviously some are worse than others as some slopes are more severe and some shots are not coming from such long distances making some less abominable than others. Nevertheless, it stuns me how today’s architects consistently violate the simple premise that the green should “receive” the shot, not “repel” it. On par threes six and seventeen and par fours twelve and thirteen we were relegated to forward tees (the seventeenth two tee boxes forward) when the pins were placed behind greenside bunkers forcing approach shots onto the obligatory downslope. It’s not that a green should never tilt away from the approach shot. It’s that when it does, the player should be granted the opportunity to land short and run or bounce it in, not be forced to shoot the ball straight up in the air.
What this ultimately leads to is the same condition you have fashioned at Bayonet and that is the course is easier for the pros or low handicap amateur, and harder, if not downright unplayable, for the middle and high handicap player. Scoring indicates that you have made the golf course almost two shots per day easier for Tour caliber players than it once was. I obviously don’t have any data for the average hacker that further substantiates this parallel, but it doesn’t take a genius to know the average player does not possess the skill, lob wedge, and ability to spin the ball sufficiently well to play the course even somewhat successfully. If your intention was to make the course easier for pros and torture the average greens fee paying guest, congratulations, mission accomplished.
Would you agree that an understanding of slope and grading on greens would be a rudimentary requirement for anyone embarking on a career in golf course architecture? At the risk of leaving this a rhetorical question, I certainly do. If you had sufficient understanding in this area surely I and the other seventy-seven contestants this past week would have been spared your attempt at building the sixteenth green. I have seen some real abominations when it comes to unusable greens, but this takes the prize for largest green without any reasonable pin placements. The four pins used for the week would fit on a small coffee table. It must be real fun mowing that green in the morning wondering what the guy who built it was thinking. While that is unquestionably the worst on the course, the greens at two, twelve, fifteen, and eighteen are only somewhat less ridiculous. These greens were built seemingly with the idea that it is advisable to minimize usable surface area for pin placements rather than maximizing it.
The ninth hole is another triumph of head scratching inanity. Four hundred and eighty yards of uphill par four, at the coast (heavy air, the ball doesn’t travel well in coastal northern California), over deep, fronting bunkers guarding a shallow green with no tilt back to front. I’d ask you what you were thinking, but the final result is proof enough you weren’t. We had to move up thirty yards to make the hole marginally playable, and I stress marginally.
I would hate to be accused of piling on, but, hey, I’m on a roll. You move the fifteenth green fifty yards up, completely altering one of the best holes on the course, and put it right beside a huge shading tree that obscures the green from sunlight for most of the morning. And being one of the five or six greens struggling to grow grass, is it any wonder? Every green that has excessive “bowling in” instead of “bowling out”, like the fifteenth, is effectively dead. Do you think poor drainage could be a contributing factor? At the risk of another rhetorical question, yes, it probably does. And when it comes to bunkering, while yours if far from the worst I’ve seen, it is predictably contemporary in its overuse of turn-ins, walk-ins, cloverleaf features, whatever your favorite moniker for this mind numbingly clichéd shaping.
As I mentioned at the outset, this letter represents years of building frustration from dashed high hopes resulting from playing new or recently renovated golf courses, and yours just happens to be the latest. Some questions you might ponder going forward, if you insist. If people in the know resoundingly applaud old gems like Merion, Shinnecock Hills, Seminole, Pine Valley, Riviera, Pebble Beach, etc., then what are some of the common features these courses share? And once that is posed and answered with some accuracy, ask yourself do the courses that you, the Jones brothers, Arthur Hills, Pete Dye, etc. concoct resemble those courses in any meaningful way or possess any of the same characteristics? So as to leave no rhetorical stones unturned, no, they don’t. I confidently speak for all golfers that know better and assume the right to speak for all the golfers that don’t: Please stop, cease, desist, quit, resign, go no further. If these are the kind of courses we are to be the perpetual recipients of, we’d just as soon you leave well enough alone.
Sincerely,
Scott Dunlap
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Scott Dunlap is my new favorite player on the PGA tour.
I'm still shaking my head at how Gene Bates could get the job on 2 courses on the Monterey Peninsula over architects that have none, Doak, C&C, Hanse, Devries, and even Tom Fazio who was brought in to the Preserve after a terrible accident.
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Tom and Co.,
Some excellent posts, laments, gongs, etc. The internal contouring is almost beyond belief. VERY limited pinnable spots on quite a few holes, and tour quality shotmaking is required to hold them in many cases, even if the chops among us are playing from the correct tees. Conditioning is excellent, but that's moot when presented with the test that borders on "vaudeville" expectations, especially in windy, fiery conditions.
Huck, I luv ya man, but there ain't no way the new 11th green is better than the old! Come on, that old version was the most natural on the course(hell, both courses). It rippled right with the lay of the land along the lower portion of that west-facing slope, was subtle as all get out, and you could run it in to the back, so long as they hadn't overwatered or had recent Monterey Monsoons. True, the new green is better than most of the others, but I'll leave that one alone.
Huck is bang on with the Net being the all-time value king on the Peninsula in it's former glory and pricepoint. Laguna Seca is right there with it...astute call there. A gem that most overlook. The only problem are the greens, that due to super voodoo, run a stellar 4-6 on the slug meter quite often. That said, a great, sunny afternoon with some chums, some chilled chard and it doesn't get much better than that. They redid their range as well, for those that like the warm-up or ball-beating.
I looped at Pebble for 11+ wonderful years and used to love bringing my groups and players over to Ft.Ord. Sure it was "Combat Golf"....scruffy, penal, not easy to walk(carrying two bags, though we did cart it quite often), but what a track! The old tour school boys used to cry a river when they teed it up there for qualifying. In fact, usually, -6 to -8 under won it, and there were never more than 5-10 guys under par at the end of the week, and that was second stage!
I'll miss the old Madam Battleaxe...RIP Bayo...you were one tough play in your day, but I loved taking you on!
Cheers and a few tears,
Kris :'( 8)
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Here are some photos from Blackhorse in May 09:
From behind #1 green:
(http://i392.photobucket.com/albums/pp6/TheOrange2002/Blackhorse%20May%202009/IMG_0736.jpg)
#3 from the tee:
(http://i392.photobucket.com/albums/pp6/TheOrange2002/Blackhorse%20May%202009/IMG_0739.jpg)
#4 from the tee (can't someone grow and maintain fairway height turf in front of and around the bunkers PLEASE!!)
(http://i392.photobucket.com/albums/pp6/TheOrange2002/Blackhorse%20May%202009/IMG_0744.jpg)
#6 - Your basic uphill "driveable" but not driveable short 265 yard par 4 ...
(http://i392.photobucket.com/albums/pp6/TheOrange2002/Blackhorse%20May%202009/IMG_0753.jpg)
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Looking back down the 6th hole:
(http://i392.photobucket.com/albums/pp6/TheOrange2002/Blackhorse%20May%202009/IMG_0755.jpg)
A shortish par 4 that doglegs around the green of a downhill par 3 ...
(http://i392.photobucket.com/albums/pp6/TheOrange2002/Blackhorse%20May%202009/IMG_0756.jpg)
Cool looking bunkers protected by rough
(http://i392.photobucket.com/albums/pp6/TheOrange2002/Blackhorse%20May%202009/IMG_0760.jpg)
Scraggly:
(http://i392.photobucket.com/albums/pp6/TheOrange2002/Blackhorse%20May%202009/IMG_0761.jpg)
Undulations, wide closely mown runoff chipping areas, stroke the chin:
(http://i392.photobucket.com/albums/pp6/TheOrange2002/Blackhorse%20May%202009/IMG_0765.jpg)
Can't remember which one, they are all starting too look alike:
(http://i392.photobucket.com/albums/pp6/TheOrange2002/Blackhorse%20May%202009/IMG_0779.jpg)
In the background, you can almost see The Preserve (hey, you gotta sell the views)
(http://i392.photobucket.com/albums/pp6/TheOrange2002/Blackhorse%20May%202009/IMG_0789.jpg)
Another "Driveable but not really driveable" short par 4:
(http://i392.photobucket.com/albums/pp6/TheOrange2002/Blackhorse%20May%202009/IMG_0800.jpg)
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Did 'Scott Dunlap' go to the same journalism school as 'Julius' of Capital fame?
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James. Could elaborate on what I'm sure is a witty post. Ignorance comes in all shapes and sizes. Mine just happens to be husky. I enjoyed Dunlap's perspective. His observations come from a place I will never reached but its interesting how our different perspectives end up with the same conclusion.
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Adam
'julius' wrote a review of Capital GC in Melbourne, which was linked to from here on GCA recently. The previous poster (David Elvins) would know of it (and he isn't Julius). The write-up was polite (well, humorous), but pointed out quite clearly the deficiencies.
sorry for my cryptic comment.
I might see what else scott dunlap has said, elsewhere.
And, I did visit Fort Ord in 2006... Understanding the military influences expains a lot.
James B
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While spending a few days recently playing the world's greatest golf course, I snuck out for an afternoon at the "new and improved" Bayonet and Black Horse complex in Seaside, Ca. To piggyback on what's been written already, I'd played around 10 years ago, prior to renovation, and remembered quirky, overgrown, difficult tracks with patchy conditioning. For those who do not know of these courses, they were designed on the site of the former Fort Ord, by one of its' Generals, who apparently was a budding architect and, from what I recalled, clearly hit a big hook.
Gene Bates was asked to redo the courses a few years ago, with plans to transform and open up/regrass the courses, soften some of the quirk (blind tee shots, sharp doglegs) and to bring a housing/academy component and from what I understand to bring the daily fee to the $200 range.
My take on the remodel: big time whiff. The site is fantastic, rolling, lined with mature cypress and pine, and routed within what was originally the dunes of Seaside, and has views of the bay on a number of holes. They've tried to bring a housing component inbetween holes (ouch!), and in doing so, the terrain is exposed and is awesome. Holes seem so easy to identify within these sandy corridors.
The good: $59 to walk. I finished 18 holes walking in under 3 hours. Great looking range/practice complex. Above average conditioning. Some of the quirk left i.e. the stretch from 11-13. Nice bay views. Nice patio out back to enjoy a beer afterward.
The bad: homogenous, predictable bunkering. I did not play the Black Horse course, but some of its' mowing lines were awful and bunkering looked waaay overdone. Greens with lots of predictable, overdone internal contours.
The end game: Fun, and an affordable taste of MP golf. But in the big scheme, a big whiff. In the land, I see a Wild Horse or Mid Pines-type course that could easily compete with its famous neighbors. Opportunity lost.
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For those who do not know of these courses, they were designed on the site of the former Fort Ord, by one of its' Generals, who apparently was a budding architect and, from what I recalled, clearly hit a big hook.
Actually, he was a slicer. But he played left-handed. ;)
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BUMP
Interesting. I looked up the "new" Bayonet" due to the Champion's Tour qualifier being there next week.
I was trying to figure out the changes to a course that I had played at least 40 times in its' previous, quirky
state.
Sometimes you just hope it's not as bad as you hear. I loved the craziness that was the old Ft Ord. It was too tight,
too penal, and the turf was always soupy, but I just liked it. While it was against the desire for width, it DID challenge you
to plan out shots, and put the ball in the correct spot to survive. The photos of the new version just look blah to me.
When I used to drive onto the base, I would sometimes drive around the back side, away from the ocean. There is rolling, sandy land with scrub, that always looked to me to be ready for a "sand Belt" group of courses.
Thinking about the land and what they have now could be one of our country's great missed golf opportunities. IF they were going to dismantle the quirk, they really should have gone with a team with experience and talent to work that beautiful sandy site into something special, instead of something
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Those dunes are untouchable not only due to the Coastal Com. but there is supposed to be millions of unexploded rounds burried all over them.
You will find the new Bayo/BH longer with sometimes brutal undulating greens.
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Tim
Understood, was more commenting on the site that Bayonet/Blackhorse sit on.
If ever a property could present greatness, it is there. IMO, a shame they changed a weird quirky course
into a shiny bauble, when if "new" was the goal, they MIGHT have had something beyond belief...
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I'm still shocked that Gene Bates would receive such a high profile job. He's either a master sales person or won the job on being the cheapest. If I recall, the budget was $9 million for both courses.
It all illustrates the contractor as amateur shapers which is one of the underlying problems.
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There was supposed to be a highrise hotel built where the old driving range was located that never went up. So they may have run out of financing.
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So I played Tuesday, and didn't play well. Played two practice rounds, and was really disappointed in the new Bayonet.
Lots of tree removal, except on number 2 which was always the narrowest of all the holes.
Bates must have been paid by the bunker. There are bunkers strewn all over. The course is still very tight, even with fewer trees, and the bunkers further tighten many landing areas on tee shots. Most of the bunkers are very hard to recover from. I cannot imagine the average golfer's struggles. Wasn't a fan of the green designs either, thought he old course had a few nearly unplayable greens.
tee shots
1) left bunker forced players to right. Leaves a bit of an awkward second
3) left bunker but if you go right tree can block approach. For me a forced layup short of bunker
7) bunker that is a forced carry Down wind no problem, into a wind I have no idea where I would hit it
8 bunker short left and long right off tee. Fairway contour also has created horrible turf conditions in landing areas
9 bunker left trees block right (actually like this tee shot) There is some width relative to rest of course on this LONG hole
10 bunker short left and long right. I hit it over left bunker but it kicked in rough both times.
11 bunker left and long right. New fairway that is a mud bog.
12 bunker short left and long right. Tee shot on this long par 4 is like a par three shot. Carry first bunker, stop before second.
I could not hit the right side of the green and hold it.
13 bunker short right and long left (variety) Worst tee shot on course. If you did fit it in the 10 yard area, ball rolled in to a drain area and a divot festival. Was going to lay up here until lift/clean/clean place allowed the option.
15 trees left bunker right Overall ok, but I liked the old 15 much better.
16 bunker short right long left
On tight corridors, bunkers are thrown around making things even tighter, necessitating a lot of layups
Turf conditions were awful. Thin but soft-to muddy underneath the thin/tight lies
With the amount of dramatic changes made, it's a disappointment. WOuld have been fun to see what Tom, Coore, Gil could have created here