Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Matt_Ward on November 19, 2008, 12:43:52 PM
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I'm often amused when I see ratings for golf layouts in Mexico because invariably you get the inclusion of places along the southern tip of Baja.
In many cases you'll need a king's ransome to play just about any of them.
About twenty years ago a good friend of mine recommended to me a visit to Bajamar Ocean Front Resort -- about 50 miles south of the San Ysidro border crossing. Candidly, the roads then were not as smooth as they are now.
The course originally opened in 1976 by Percy Clifford with some slight modifications carried out in 1991 by David Fleming. In 1994 Robert von Hagge created the Oceano nine and it features several holes parallel to the Pacific Ocean. The original 18 was named the Vista & Lagos Nines.
Total length of the features Vista & Oceano nines comes out to 7,151 yards / par-72.
74.7 CR / 138 slope, Vista & Oceano Nines.
Now, I'll be the first to admit that not all of the holes are stellar but when you combine the fees, proximity to SoCal and the general hospitality of the place it makes for a fine option.
A couple of my friends were there recently and said some additional improvements are being planned when the financial climate improves.
Be curious to know if others have been there and what they feelings were.
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Matt,
Can you get an all inclusive where food, drink and golf are unlimited all for one price?
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Ive been to Bajamar a number of times. It is a fun getaway.
There were options were lodging and some meals were included. We had the most fun when we rented a villa and went to the Ensenada fish market and cooked our own dinners. Breakfast at the course was decent.
The golf was good fun, conditioning was iffy.
I would go again but the prices have jumped quite a bit.
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I've been there once; my feelings would echo Stan's.
TH
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Matt, I have a friend that played there as recently as three weeks ago and the conditions were abysmal. (I'm told) The service at the hotel, even worse.
I've played there a few times and enjoyed the original 18 holes, with nine of those holes by Percy Clifford. I felt that the much publicized Von Hagge Oceano was over-rated and repetitious when it came to the ocean side holes. I think they are just so-so golf holes and a missed opportunity. Whats even more amazing is that they could have got more holes down there which I think could have really pushed the course over the edge in popularity. It's a pretty neat place. Homesites got to those good areas, and I'm told there hasn't been a home built down there yet--which is amazing.
There is something to be said about getting sprayed by the Pacific Ocean while standing on those three tees down on that beach. That is the best part of that experience.
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When I lived in SD, Bajamar used to advertise a package with Real Del Mar golf course that was a pretty good deal and I believe was all inclusive. I haven't seen the ads recently but maybe some of the SD GCA residents can chime in.
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The time I was down there I played Real del Mar also... in fact it must have been on a package like you describe, Tim. As I recall that was a pretty decent course as well. Nothing great, nothing awful, good enough fun.
No clue how things stand now.
TH
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I've played Real Del Mar also, and its about just as you described. Some good land for golf though.
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I haven't been there in about 15 years, but I always wondered why someone hadn't built a good course in San Felipe.
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(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d28/yeldrab/3857BajamarOceano5-red.jpg)
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Aiden,
I'm convinced you could make me look like Brad Pitt. I'm ready for my close-up! :D
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......... but how could you deal with being the sexiest man alive?
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Matt,
I played Bajamar probably 12 years ago, and would agree with the sentiments of the group. However I was reminded recently that Tijuana and the roads to Bajamar have more murders per day than Bagdad. It should be interesting to see how Tiger's new development deals with that 'little' hurdle.
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TMIMITW, on rollerblading:
No.
Stay thirsty, my friends.
;D
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I haven't been there in about 15 years, but I always wondered why someone hadn't built a good course in San Felipe.
They have... been there a few years now...
Las Caras de Mexico
http://www.lascarasdemexico.com/Course_Designer.html
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TMIMITW
I have no idea what that means, but I do know that it disqualifies you as even the second most interesting... ;D
Jeez man for one of golf's greatest minds you really can be dense at times....
The
Most
Interesting
Man
In
The
World
And you know also he doesn't always drink beer, but when he does, he prefers Dos Equis.
In Arizona earlier this year I ordered a beer using those terms and the waitress nearly keeled over laughing.
TH
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I'm often amused when I see ratings for golf layouts in Mexico because invariably you get the inclusion of places along the southern tip of Baja.
In many cases you'll need a king's ransome to play just about any of them.
Nah... we take US Dollars, Pesos, AMEX, Visa, MasterCard...
Goats, Cows, Gold... all nice but not accepted as forms of payment.
By the way are you saying that a relatively high price lessens the architectural merits of a particular golf course? If not your above statement is misleading at best.
As noted above the Northern Baja is experiencing some major problems as it is ground zero for President Calderon's war on the drug cartels.
What is the feeling of safety worth? Piece of mind? Not that those bolster or detract from the architectural merits of a golf facility.
Sorry, but certain things in this world are not for everyone. Plenty I cannot afford that I would enjoy... but I do not take potshots at private jet travel when relating the relative value of commercial carriers. Just food for thought.
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Just put my picture in there. That's all you need.
Stay inbounds my friend.....
Greg,
A lot of stuff has been said of the drug cartels of Tijuana. Is this something to fear when simply going to play TJCC? I hope not.
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Just remember Tommy if they pull you over, don't ask for badges! :o
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Just put my picture in there. That's all you need.
Stay inbounds my friend.....
Greg,
A lot of stuff has been said of the drug cartels of Tijuana. Is this something to fear when simply going to play TJCC? I hope not.
Tommy, It is getting pretty serious as the cartels step up their violence in reaction to policy, seizures, arrests... et al.
As someone who has witnessed this on the mainland it is not pretty... In Mazatlan...
was maybe 30 cars behind some cartel hoods as they trap two cars of federal agents in a turn lane and unload what had to be hundreds of rounds into the cars killing all occupants.
had the feds engage in a shootout in the main tourist area a few blocks from our downtown office... you may have read about this as it was one of the famed Arellano brothers from Tijuana they killed as he came out of a local pharmacy in a movie like both guns drawn stance.
had a federal judge, his wife and ttwo friends murdered in a nice development in Mazatlan as they returned from dinner one evening.
Point is... not sure I would put anything past these guys... they had operated above the real law for so long that they cannot take the new regime coming after them with guns drawn and North Baja(TJ) is the front line.
Mazatlan and Sinaloa state in general are renowned for the drug crowd.
Los Cabos is not part of that scene thankfully.
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Matt,
TN is 100% correct. DO NOT GO to Bajamar. A disaster now.
Look up my recent posts and you'll see why.
Real is still ok, but it too has gone down somewhat resort wise. Not as good as before in my opinion. Course is still in good shape. Be prepared for some pretty tight fairways.
Anyway, if you do decide to go ... just bring lots of $$$ and do not use your cards ANYWHERE at Bajamar.
Say hi to Jorge the Federale at the border for me as well. He's still laughing at our fleecing...
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Tim,
That's funny.
All I said was "what can we do?". To which the oh so kind Federale said "you can empty your wallets and roll the cash into a nice wad and place it under your driver's license and hand the license to me".
Just remember Tommy if they pull you over, don't ask for badges! :o
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Patrick K:
Thanks ...
However --
I get a laugh when people harp on conditioning concerning Bajamar and I don't doubt their accuracy / credibility pertaining to that layout but then you get others who would give a free pass to Apache Stronghold which has had no less the same issues but is viewed as a completely different pedigree and no doubt the name of the architect tied to that layout does matter to some no matter how bad the turf quality is there.
Bajamar is not "Pebble Beach of Mexico" as the folks who run the show ignorantly believe and tout on their Website. But when I was there the two nines I mentioned -- Oceano and Vista -- were quite good and certainly entertaining in a number of spots.
Glad to have updated info to tell me where things stand now.
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I know what you're saying as I've played both as well (AP and Bajamar).
The layout at Bajamar isn't too bad, but I would not rank it up there with AP as far as the interest and challenge. It was sad to see the state of the bunkers at AP when I was there in '05. The Monsoon's just take a beating on the place.
That said, the landscape at Bajamar is now a big issue in my mind. They've marred the lanscape there. Just killed it in my opinion. A bunch of unfinished projects just litter the place. Really sad because they do have a faux diamond in the rough.
If on top of that you're dropping well over $100 AND getting card fraud ... well ... nuff said I'm afraid.
Patrick K:
Thanks ...
However --
I get a laugh when people harp on conditioning concerning Bajamar and I don't doubt their accuracy / credibility pertaining to that layout but then you get others who would give a free pass to Apache Stronghold which has had no less the same issues but is viewed as a completely different pedigree and no doubt the name of the architect tied to that layout does matter to some no matter how bad the turf quality is there.
Bajamar is not "Pebble Beach of Mexico" as the folks who run the show ignorantly believe and tout on their Website. But when I was there the two nines I mentioned -- Oceano and Vista -- were quite good and certainly entertaining in a number of spots.
Glad to have updated info to tell me where things stand now.
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I just want to know who is going to be kind to me and send me the avatar of this guy that'll fit in the box on the left. This blows away Jack Nicholson and even the lipstick lesbian incestuous pipe dream.
Dave,
I agree with the former but would vigorously dispute the latter assertion.
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Since when does Apache Stronghold get a pass when it comes to their conditioning? In fact, I don't think there is a single person here that doesn't look upon the place as a complete tragedy--that one of the best designs in Arizona happens to be suffering from complete neglect and there is nothing that can be done about it. I'm actually surprised that the Apache Nation hasn't just turned around and walked away from the course, and just let it die... and you don't know how much it hurts to say that, knowing just how great of a golf course it really is.
But if your trying to compare the architecture that exists there, well Bajamar isn't capable of smelling Apache Stronghold's shorts. The one thing that Bajamar has going for it is that body of water that sits next too and you know that. That's why I think Bajamar is nothing but one huge gigantic missed opportunity.
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Tommy N:
You missed my point ...
There have been people on this site who have completely dismissed conditioning as an element that needs to be factored into the discussion of a course -- and not just pertaining to AS.
I have previously opined conditioning is certainly not the first among equals when a layout is evaluated -- my top three are the site itself, the nature of the routing and the depth of the overall shot values. Conditioning is a secondary item which brings to life all the design elements that have been put into place by the architect.
I've heard the argument conditioning is some sort of element that can be added as needed -- the problem comes because those places that are short in that respective category never do anything to turn things around. AS is candidate #1 that fits that description.
AS is a fantastic course (when conditioning of marginal nature is present) -- but it's a big time stretch to say "Bajamar isn't capable of smelling Apache Stronghold's shorts." I've played both and if conditiong were equal AS is the better of the two -- I don't doubt that for a NY minute. But Bajamar had a good deal to offer from the architectural front on the separate occasions I have been there. Granted I was not there this past weekend -- but there is architecture there and frankly it provided me more than "one huge gigantic missed opportunity." Could it be more? Sure. So could just about any course.
If Bajamar (I wish on my part) were to bring in an architect to tweak what is there it's possible it could be a good deal more. But I've played a good bit throughout SoCal to know that the Bajamar I played would hold its head quite high when compared to all but the top tier layouts I have played throughout the region.
Clearly, given the reports that have been posted -- the layout is going through some difficult times. A pity.
Patrick K:
Agreed -- "a faux diamond in the rough."
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Matt,
I've never been there, but what would you say about Brora?
Most who I talk to say that its an absolute charmer and that if you are expecting perfect conditions--demand perfect conditions--it would be a better decision not to play there ever and to please forget to tell anyone you've ever heard of it. they want it kept a secret, these true lovers of the links. You see, the architecture and the charm rule the place (so I'm told.) Probably most because of the simplicity. So perfect without the slightest hint of snobbery. Pretty cool is the first thing that comes to mind. Anyone that would care about the conditioning there doesn't belong there--one of the greatest places to experience the truest esssence of the Sport. Ran's review of it tells you to watch out for the cow pies walking from tee to green.
I guess I'm trying to suggest that sometimes--we American's put a lot of priority on conditioning. Don't get me wrong, I love a well-conditioned course just as much as the next guy, but I've found that the rough at the edges look to be more consistent with enjoying the sport at its fullest, especially when it comes to seaside golf. Real Golf.
But I do know how to give a course its due--when it deserves it.
Since we are obviously debating the course in general--the Oceano--well, let me list a few things that I, myself, don't care for architecturally.....
Hole 1) As about as exciting as white-breaded cheese sandwich. Not one ounce of provocative strategy--no strategy what-so-ever.
Hole 2) A decent hole from the tee because of the strategy of the lower and higher fairways. Which fairway would provide the easier path for one's game? Honestly, I don't see any reason why anyone would ever want to be on the lower right fairway and you definitely don't want to be too right from tee to green. Anything on the right side of the green is down the hill and out of bounds--if you play it that way, so that decision to be made from the tee has now become a moot point. PLAY IT LEFT. (at least that is what I've seen of the hole in my plays there)
Hole 3) A typical hole for a course (9 holes) that has some huge signs of mediocrity. Memorable? Not a chance!
Hole 4) Actually the best hole on this nine a decent hole with some strategies to be decided. You have the forced carry over the ravine to a typical punchbowl/backstop green complex.
Hole 5) After a terrifying ride down the hill, where your hoping and praying to Our Lady of Guadalupe that Alfredo, the Bajamar cart mechanic has done a decent job of maintaining the brakes on your cart (because the ride from the clubhouse to the first tee alone is reason to never walk the course--let alone the walk down from Hole #4, its time to play a somewhat decent par 3 over the water. You walk on to the tee and the water is literally splashing on to you from the rocks--your impressed! the tee shot on this par 3 is pretty stout, only your about to get the same green complex for the next three holes after it. I'll give it a passing grade here, but here come the rest of the last three out of four golf holes, and this is where the repetition really begins.
Holes 6,7 & 8 ) If I didn't complain about it, then I would be guilty of being biased against Rees Jones, so here it comes: I don't think I've ever seen worst artificial containment on a golf course in my whole life. Why? Well obviously to block out any errant tee shots into the houses that will eventually someday blot that entire left side. Its just horribly shaped; horribly planned. There is not a single ounce of strategy on any of these three golf holes--NONE. The four ocean holes walk single file in line to the 9th, which then marches up hill, but given the amount of land down there--which doesn't seem like a lot, you think someone could have devised some sort of different routing that featured the holes going into different directions, while still having room to some houses. Heck, maybe even a dog-legging par 4 or five with a break for a road no different then Shinnecock #12, or something like that. For that land down there, to me that's why it is a wasted opportunity.
Hole 9) While this hole could have been much worst, it isn't too bad, just a mere let down probably no different then finishing the 18th at Cypress Point for some. Only for me I was let down four holes before it. Blast a drive up the hill, blast a second shot to the green; DONE.
It's time to go get a shitty margarita in that room they call a bar, and definitely don't eat the food, which sucks for the prices they charge there. Use that time instead to get into Ensenada for Hussong's.
Matt, that's my take on what was once Mexico's once affordable gem--but Bajamar's Vista and Lagos courses are worth some amount of praise. (and to experience the somewhat entertaining work of a Mexican legend, Percy Clifford.)(I've played 27 holes of Clifford's handiwork, and seemingly he got it. Some of the work is quite good including Mazatlan's Club Compuestre, another course I've played a fare share of times on four visits there.)
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Playing Bajamar on Sunday, Jan 19. Vista and Ocean were recommended to me. Will try to post photos here for the first time. Using 2016 US Open tees to give future archeologists something to chew on.
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Obviously the Ocean 9 is the main attraction. Of the other 2 the Vistas done by Percy Clifford is the better choice. The Lagos done by David Fleming was under construction last month so your choice may well be predetermined.
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To play Ocean and Vista, we had to play Vista first. Our slow group was disappointed to run out of light on Ocean 6…Consolation: Vista has plenty of ocean views. We had a fantastic time.
Friday to Sunday late rate starting at 1 is $79. Although the website says cart required, I had $4 or 5 knocked off the price as a walker.
The Bajamar property is large and the development seems prosperous. Nice housing and quite a bit of it. Although Vista and Ocean were empty (nobody harmed by our slow play), the clubhouse parking lot had cars and people were in the bar/restaurant and on the putting green. Only unfinished housing, iirc, was beside Ocean 4 tee. My Spanish-speaking friends familiar with the area handled all logistics. It’s hard to envision my managing alone. We stayed at an oceanfront timeshare in Rosarito called La Paloma. It could have been in La Jolla CA. If there is a next time, I would check out Bajamar’s Hotel Hacienda and its other amenities.
I can’t disagree with the criticisms of Ocean expressed above, esp. re 6 thru 8. Vista was the more pleasing round. The greens of both were typical of the publics I can afford in SoCal: few thrills. I found one bunker all day (the large one left of Ocean 1 green); the sand was like rock.
Most unexpected feature: quite large grass amphitheater between Ocean 8 and 9. Spectators face the ocean. I wonder how much it is used!
Wildlife highlights: bobcat on Vista 1, vultures.
Meal tip: El Nido in Rosarito for the atmosphere. (Two breakfasts do not qualify me to judge the menu.)
If unable to post photos, I will post a link to photos.