Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Bryan Izatt on November 19, 2008, 12:28:43 PM
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After looking at the revised layout for the course and reading the Heeeeere's Donald thread, I wondered why the actual layout of the course proposed by Hawtree didn't elicit more comments and opinions. If we could ignore the environmental, political and estate development issues for a few moments, and assuming that financing gets in place and the project actually proceeds, what think you of the actual course design?
The course is laid out north-south aling the coast much like it's southerly next door neighbour, Royal Aberdeen.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Balmedie/BalmedieAerialOverlay4MScopy.jpg)
One thing that stood out was the routing of holes on the bare sand dome at the northern end of the property. Building holes there will require lots of stabalization of the sand base but I guess provides limitless opportunities to shape the holes. Seems likely that there would be the potential for the surrounding dome to migrate onto the holes in any kind of significant wind storm.
The one hole that immediately struck me was the 10th, a 581 yard par 5. The hole description is as follows:
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Balmedie/Hole10Description.jpg)
and not just because of the "impressionable green side dune in its "iconic oddity". Rather why Hawtree decided to use the natural wetland to create a split fairway hole. There appears to be no particular reward for attempting the right hand route. In fact it looks marginally longer and not particularly wider. The hole does appear to fit wonderfully into the natural features of the land.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Balmedie/Balmedie10Overlay.jpg)
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No. 10 is a three shot hole for most of us. It does appear longer from the right but more open.
Anthony
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Brian -
Where on the web did you find the layout plans for the Trump Scotland course?
I could not find them at www.trumpgolfscotland.com
DT
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I'm not real crazy about the lack of width, but it is--and this for Jean Paul-Parodi--reminscent de la magnifique 4ème trou au Lido....
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Bryan,
I saw the same thing....and either the first hole tee is omitted from the rendering, miles from the clubhouse, the mother of all carries on an opening tee shot.
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Brian. As David intimates no one has really seen the actual anything. However that shouldn't stop the speculation. So let me start. If the project in anyway emulates an American style the course it will not be high on anyones gca hit list. The mere fact that there are plans implies its already on the wrong road visa vie overly constructed unless field changes are significant. I wonder if some of the OM team could comment on the process and how much they worked with plans?
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Brian -
Where on the web did you find the layout plans for the Trump Scotland course?
I could not find them at www.trumpgolfscotland.com
DT
David
I posted the link on the previous "Heeeere's Donald" thread. lots of good stuff on there.
Rich
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Jean-Paul, Did you read and translate my French?
What do you think?
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Here's the link for the plans, all the proceedings, etc. Enjoy before you pontificate.
http://www.aberdeenshire.gov.uk/planning/inquiry/Revised%20hole%20by%20hole%20analysis%20of%20Golf%20Course%20Master%20Plan...Docuement%20T4.pdf
Thomas
Je ne connais assez bien le quatrieme a Lido. C'etait bon?
r
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It looks like the greatest course in the world to me!
I'll say the prose for #10 sure is hard reading...
" but I guess provides limitless opportunities to shape the holes"
This isn't what made every other great course in Scotland great.
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I now realize my courses need more iconic oddities......
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Here's the link for the plans, all the proceedings, etc. Enjoy before you pontificate.
http://www.aberdeenshire.gov.uk/planning/inquiry/Revised%20hole%20by%20hole%20analysis%20of%20Golf%20Course%20Master%20Plan...Docuement%20T4.pdf
Thomas
Je ne connais assez bien le quatrieme a Lido. C'etait bon?
r
Oui, mon ami, M. Parodi. Il a été un grand trou qui procède de l'Eden Lido. Je crois que la 4e est allé dans un Punchbowl vert semblable à celui de la 3ème Westhampton trou,
Merci beaucoup pour le lien et je vais le regarder plus tard, lorsque je reçois un certain temps, comme je suis à mon travail et la différence de M. Huckaby, le patron a tendance à froncer les sourcils quand je ne suis pas concentré sur le travail et mon attention est entièrement golf sur .....
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Don't these architects ever learn. Golf is not for the .0001% of the world that plays from the championship tees. Why are they creating courses for those people and letting the rest of the golfing world suffer? The split fairway 10th for example. Why would the majority of players even consider it? From the forward tees it significantly lengthens the hole and then adds a forced carry over water to the second shot. Besides this bit of ineptitude, you must notice that walking off the green takes you where? To the championship tees! I thought they walked in Scotland. Is The Donald forcing them into carts? Even RTJ II learned the lesson of what tees to place adjacent to the green and utilized it at Chambers Bay.
EDIT: I guess I must retract some of that. After following the link given in later posts which gives a different and more visible view, I see that a few forward tees are placed nearer the green than the championship tees. Interestingly, it would seem that play from some of the championship tees would endanger players on the preceeding green. E.g., #17.
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I'll say this about Hawtree's course here in Ontario -- it ain't wide. If width was what you were looking for, I don't think you'll find it in his designs. Not that it is too narrow -- not like the European Club. But his course here (Tarandowah) could have used some more width in some areas, as the fescue eats balls that are even slightly wayward.
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The ponds throw me a bit. Purely for irrigation? Purely for play? I just don't tend to think of ponds when I think of links courses. Am I missing something?
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All the water is horrendous.
Routing doesn't blow me away either, but it's hard to tell from what we've been provided with here....
Not surprised....
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I hate to say this but that #10 might be one of the worst holes I've ever seen a drawing of.
It's the lido hole, somewhat, but that island off on the right is just a stupid place to hit the ball. I don't understand the risk/reward proposition:
Play straight the straight, shorter and wider route and maybe it's reachable, or you can try to hit a skinnier island way off on the right and make it a 3 shot hole for yourself. ::) ???
Well, let's give it the benefit of the doubt
It could be the one of the best holes you've ever seen a drawing of. That would be a classic - take the low road for a good lie and stance and a second/third along the line of the green,
Alternatively go take the high road for the shorter second and risk getting caught in all that sidehill/downhill/uphill funky mogul thang
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I don't know. Reading the course description makes the course sound VERY interesting.
For those beefing about the 10th, my bet is that the green is on view from the right fairway and blind (at least obscured by dunes) from the left fairway for anybody attempting to have a go in two. For the big boys the design makes absolute sense. I think the water by the right fairway is a natural wetland. Having seen other Hawtree work recently I think the course will be difficult, but I am sure this is part of the brief if Trump is hoping to hold championships. Having had a good walk around this land I don't see how this course can fail to be a stunner.
Ciao
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...The raft comes with a waterproof trunk for your clubs ...
??? My clubs are waterproof. It's my bag and other paraphernalia that I would want to keep dry. :D
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All the water is horrendous.
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The claim is that the water is natural and pre-existing. It is simply too much in play on #2 and #8. On both holes, it is on the righty slice side. The typical landing zones for the big hitters will take the water out of play on these holes, but it is the average golfer that will have to deal with the water the most as the tees for them are positioned so the water will definitely be in play.
I don't know what their environmental restraints were, but it would seem #2 could have headed off to the left away from the pond/swamp and used the burn as a diagonal hazard. The further right you went, the longer distance you had before reaching the burn, and that gain was balanced by bringing you closer to the pond/swamp.
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I was under the impression that Fazio did the general routing and the local gca was fleshing it out. Is my information inaccurate?
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Lou D. -
Tommy Fazio was originally named as the GCA of record, but Trump switched to Martin Hawtree some months into the project. I do not know how much work Tommy F. actually did or how much of his work (if any) was incorporated into Hawtree's routing/design.
DT
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The layout looks alot like TOC - Kiawah.
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Excuse me, but don't you guys think that instead of pointing and shooting first, that you should let them build it before criticizing it? The place hasn't even turned a shovel and suddenly its the worst course in the world. Its not like he is building it next to a prison, or that he wasn't taking advantage of the dunes....I mean can you guys even see the features that they aren't taking advantage of there?
To say this routing doesn't work for you is L-U-D-I-C-R-O-U-S! You've never even been there! Give the guy a F-U-C-K-I-N-G break.
I'll have you know that Hawtree redid the 3rd at Carnoustie and from accounts, its supposed to be a better hole then it was before. From my experience, they had trouble getting grass to grow on that fairway, let alone made it a somewhat competitive hole. Maybe Jean-Paul Parodi can further contribute the quality of golf there.
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Tom
I agree with you , but I enjoy debate on courses that I am interested in .
And although I agree about the 3rd at Carnoustie , his work for next years Open at Turnberry has left me cold , and is not going down well with the locals .
In fact , by all reports Greg Norman will be brought in after the Open to redo it again .
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I hate to say this but that #10 might be one of the worst holes I've ever seen a drawing of.
It's the lido hole, somewhat, but that island off on the right is just a stupid place to hit the ball. I don't understand the risk/reward proposition:
Play straight the straight, shorter and wider route and maybe it's reachable, or you can try to hit a skinnier island way off on the right and make it a 3 shot hole for yourself. ::) ???
You are overlooking the funnel aspect of the island fairway, which whirlpools all balls down to a small hole that funnels the ball under the water through a pipe and pops out on the green.
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Tommy is right. I for one think Trump is a tool and he is going to unleash his douchiness in grand scale when this gets built. And maybe the end product WILL give him the rights to douchiness. Who knows?
But for now it is way too early to start shooting it down. I would bet he plowed into this project obviously wanting to use Fazio. And because of the sensitivity of the project a little birdie advised him to go with the best in the British Isles (Hawtree) so he could atleast come away with some local respect.
I would have to think that Martin Hawtree will do a magnificent job, remember its not Trump himself designing it. ;)
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Bryan,
I saw the same thing....and either the first hole tee is omitted from the rendering, miles from the clubhouse, the mother of all carries on an opening tee shot.
The tees seem to have faded in the overlay. My bad. ??? They are definitely there on the plan ........ about 150-200 yards south from the 9th green, on top of a dune ridge (the report says). I'm guessing they found the teeing area, the valley for the fairway and the green location on the natural topography and went with a starting point that's a little way from the clubhouse. Isn't that how natural/minimalist courses are built?
As to needing more "iconic oddities" on your courses, I'm not sure why your passing up on "impressionable"dunes. Gotta get those dunes at a young age while you can still make an impression on them. ;D
For whatever it's worth the hole description is from a report written by IronsideFarrar, Environmental Consultants. Perhaps you just need to hire the right environmental consultants to help you with your marketing language. ;)
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For those of you that have a hate on for The Donald, I'm with Tommy, let's give them a chance to build the course before piling on. Perhaps Hawtree will get a relatively free hand to create. And the property looks awesome. So, chances are it's going to turn out well. If not, then we can debate it as the greatest lost opportunity of all time.
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The ponds throw me a bit. Purely for irrigation? Purely for play? I just don't tend to think of ponds when I think of links courses. Am I missing something?
Kirk,
I also noticed the number of "ponds". Seems unlinks-like based on my experience. I can think of many classic links with meandering burns, but none that have ponds or wetland areas. Anybody think of any with natural wetland areas. In any event, the wetlands (seasonally maybe shallow ponds-like) are there. As a naturalistic/minimalist design, don't they have to stay? Is this site unique in Scottish links sites in having those wetland areas?
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Lou D. -
Tommy Fazio was originally named as the GCA of record, but Trump switched to Martin Hawtree some months into the project. I do not know how much work Tommy F. actually did or how much of his work (if any) was incorporated into Hawtree's routing/design.
DT
The third chapter - Hole-by-Hole Geomorphological Assesment - of the IronsideFarrar report does indicate how some of the holes have changed from previous plans, presumably from Fazio to Hawtree. So, it sounds like there was a fully formed plan that Hawtree has revised. For instance the 10th was described as being a dogleg in the previous plan. The end of the report also has a summary table comparing the environmental impact of the Fazio and Hawtree courses.
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Lou D. -
Tommy Fazio was originally named as the GCA of record, but Trump switched to Martin Hawtree some months into the project. I do not know how much work Tommy F. actually did or how much of his work (if any) was incorporated into Hawtree's routing/design.
DT
The third chapter - Hole-by-Hole Geomorphological Assesment - of the IronsideFarrar report does indicate how some of the holes have changed from previous plans, presumably from Fazio to Hawtree. So, it sounds like there was a fully formed plan that Hawtree has revised. For instance the 10th was described as being a dogleg in the previous plan. The end of the report also has a summary table comparing the environmental impact of the Fazio and Hawtree courses.
I've only skimmed the report but it did seem to me the routings must have been similar for the comparison they made. Also they were trying to show that the Hawtree Course had less land in cultivation and that has to impact on width and playability in wind - it's a considerable constraint on a site like this.
Im quite a Hawtree fan. Bearwood Lakes, Cardigan and 9 new holes at the Milienium course in Portugal are all rather good. But, at least from the drawing, the area that caught my eye are the fairways through that big sandy waste area. Desert Golf?
Can anyone point out where the second course wil sit...and the location of 'that' neighbours property?
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A quick read through on the link would suggest that some of the water is probably not in play due to the dunes systems.
This may not seem to be a standard links layout, but based on the hole descriptions it will probably be aesthetically spectacular. Until pictures start to come out during construction it is pretty tough to comment on the design.
I think many of the GCAs on the site would agree that routing diagrams do not make a course.
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Robb rig, or is it Rob Rigg, or is it....
Thank you! yes, routing maps don't make golf courses. Probably the smartest thing said on this thread!
Also, thanks for reminding me what I forgot to also reply on; if anyone was capable of reading, that area of lake--if it is going to be a lake--was environmentally sensitive land.
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Tommy,
The "lake" is described as a "very irregular shallow lake" in the report. It's in the SSSI area. I'd imagine that they would leave it untouched in the interests of disturbing as little of the protected areas as possible. The report says that the course will result in approx 18 hectares of direct habitat loss. The "lake" on 10 doesn't appear to be part of that loss.
Tony,
I don't know where the second course would go. Presumably up on the farmland to the west of the course?
Is this the 'that' neighbour property you're thinking of? Right next (within 175 yards) to (overlooking) the proposed 8th hole?
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Balmedie/ThatNeighbour.jpg)
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8) I'm surprized no one commented that the lakes would be used for supplying waterfalls?
If there is so much sand - dunes there, these marshes or wet areas have to be hydraulicly connected to the coastal waters.. are they reported to be fresh water or brackish?
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No. 10.- Options of the tee are always a positive.
Water (ponds)- If they are natural they have to stay. One of the courses at St Andrews that is beside TOC has a natural pond.
Width- These holes look tight which is unlike most links courses. It appears that the front 9 and back 9 differ in width. Do you see the same thing?
Anthony
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Bryan,
From what I saw on Bryant Gumble's HBO show, who did an episode on the issues at hand, yes, that does look like the place.
I can't blame the man for not wanting to lose his beautiful automotive "garden." ::)
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The layout looks alot like TOC - Kiawah.
The Donald needs to write his royalty check to:
The Ocean Course
Kiawah Island Golf Resort
1000 Ocean Course Drive
Kiawah Island, SC 29455
It's virtually identical...
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The layout looks alot like TOC - Kiawah.
The Donald needs to write his royalty check to:
The Ocean Course
Kiawah Island Golf Resort
1000 Ocean Course Drive
Kiawah Island, SC 29455
It's virtually identical...
Mike,
The ocean course has ponds and running water also. Are the ponds man made or natural?
Thanks Mike............ Anthony
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Excuse me, but don't you guys think that instead of pointing and shooting first, that you should let them build it before criticizing it? The place hasn't even turned a shovel and suddenly its the worst course in the world. ...
Worst course in the world? Bit of hyperbole there, eh Tommy? As for the criticism, I would hope they had much of the same discussion during their design phase, and already have their answers for most of it. In fact they might be basking in the criticism. AM felt the best holes were the ones that garnered the most criticism.
I value this site for the free flow of ideas about courses built and being built. I devalue this site when course criticism turns to personal, or vindictive. Shivas perhaps had the most negative criticism of the 10th hole, but I see it as expressing an honest opinion, and not anything to be discouraged.
So Tommy, as you see, I beg to differ. Let the critiques continue.
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Does anyone know if it will be open for public play?
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The layout looks alot like TOC - Kiawah.
The Donald needs to write his royalty check to:
The Ocean Course
Kiawah Island Golf Resort
1000 Ocean Course Drive
Kiawah Island, SC 29455
It's virtually identical...
Mike,
The ocean course has ponds and running water also. Are the ponds man made or natural?
Thanks Mike............ Anthony
There were many natural ponds and waterways on the site but many were destroyed/filled with debris by Huricane Hugo as it roared through during construction. A good portion of the construction costs was in restoring many of those ponds. Some were man-made like the one in front of No. 17 and a number of them in the middle of the course...
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Bump...
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With the other thread going about final approval of the building of the course, I thought I'd resurrect this one to see if there is any discussion debate about the design and layout of the course.
From the links to the planning commission it appears that the course layout has been altered a bit from a year ago to accommodate preservation of more natural areas. It's interesting to look at the topo map in conjunction with the layout and the aerial view.
Getting back to the 10th hole, here is the overlay of the hole on the Google aerial. The current modified design for this hole is very close to this version with the exception that they appear to have recognized that they needed to connect the island fairway to the left hand fairway.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Balmedie/Balmedie10Overlay.jpg)
For fun, and to try to better understand the design intent, I overlaid the 10th hole onto the topo map. The island fairway to the right now makes a little more sense. Although it is longer to go that way, it does provide a head on approach up a 20 to 30 foot ridge to the green on the second shot. Playing the left fairway appears to offer two challenges - how to keep the drive in a fairway sloped left to right toward the water and in a bottleneck created by the ridge to the left and the natural wetland to the right; and how to play a second shot across the ridge that leads up to the green. The green appears to be in a nice dell nestled in below a massive 50 foot dune on the right. Looks like it could be a interesting and challenging and picturesque par 5.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/TI10Topo.jpg)
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Any info on the widths of the fairway as you progress tee to green?
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I could be wrong but I can't see many taking the right hand route particularly when the wind is up which would probably be quite often. It looks like the play is up the left on the bunker but short followed by a second taking the line of the fairway to the widest part and then a bunt onto the green for the third.
To take on the green with the second from the left handside you would have to go over the edge of the dune/rough and play onto a down slope sideways. A bit like the approach to the 7trh at Silloth from the right hand side of the fairway.
What I'd like to know is how do you walk the hole if you go for the right hand fairway, it looks a fairly roundabout route to get back on track.
Niall
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That right piece of fairway looks like the long way home.
ARG
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Quite. Is it supposed to be easier to hit with a driver than the fairway on the left at a similar distance ?
Niall
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I suspect a better line , and view into the green also ?
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I posted these on , one of the many threads , on this course .
(http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q2/brianewen/Golf/capture1.jpg)
(http://i719.photobucket.com/albums/ww199/alistermatheson/21102009008.jpg)
(http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q2/brianewen/Golf/capture1-1.jpg)
(http://i719.photobucket.com/albums/ww199/alistermatheson/photo17.jpg)
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The ponds throw me a bit. Purely for irrigation? Purely for play? I just don't tend to think of ponds when I think of links courses. Am I missing something?
Kirk,
I also noticed the number of "ponds". Seems unlinks-like based on my experience. I can think of many classic links with meandering burns, but none that have ponds or wetland areas. Anybody think of any with natural wetland areas. In any event, the wetlands (seasonally maybe shallow ponds-like) are there. As a naturalistic/minimalist design, don't they have to stay? Is this site unique in Scottish links sites in having those wetland areas?
Westward Ho!? Here's the club's website with #10, "Rush." where the tee shot is blind over a wetland with "rushes." Ample precedent!
http://www.royalnorthdevongolfclub.co.uk/10.html
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It also depends on the nature of those wetlands. At Askernish when I first went there - in early March - there were several areas that were virtually under water. But you go back in the summer and those areas are generally dry. We're not talking about permanent large lakes. Or at least, I don't think we are.
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Adam
I assume that even if the "lake" dried out during the summer it would be left uncut therefore still serving the same strategic function. I also would guess that it is there because its below the water table and presumably Scottish Nature or whoever is overseeing wouldn't let them raise it.
Niall
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No. 10 is a three shot hole for most of us. It does appear longer from the right but more open.
Anthony
What is it, a long par 3?
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A few pics from the beach :
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2783/5843662109_1c69d15115_b.jpg)
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2456/5843662179_c84ec9ef3d_b.jpg)
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2723/5843662239_f0b501bb4e_b.jpg)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3104/5844215990_d2485bb410_b.jpg)
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2785/5844208746_796fbdc1f0_b.jpg)
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I've never seen square tees in Scotland
The fairways look homogenized
Why isn't that cool dune more in play in the last couple pictures
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"I've never seen square tees in Scotland."
Mike -
Are you sure about that? Seems to me that is just about all I have seen.
DT
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I'm with you there David. I've seen nothing but squared tees in my dozen-plus rounds in Scotland. Maybe not the squarest squares as the Donald can pull off, but pretty square nonetheless.
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Thanks guys
FYI
I only play North Berwick and The Old Course... ;)
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Brian,
Thanks for the pictures. Are the fairways as wide as they look. They look mammoth compared to Royal Aberdeen, for instance.
Mike,
Not to pile on, but the first tees (and others) at TOC and NB are rectangular. ;D
What do you mean by homogenized fairways? No humps and bumps?
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The fairways look homogenized
Brian can clarify, but I think those pictures are all of the same hole - we're seeing just one fairway there.
Brian Ewen: any thoughts about what you saw? Also, is the hole you photographed #15?
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"The views from the tee are unparalleled in golf".
What a wank!
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Brian
Many thanks for posting those photo's. A couple of comments.
There looks to have been a serious amount of planting of marram (?) grass of fairway. I wonder if that will work in the long term or will the shifting dune system continue to work its influence.
Second point, for such as dramatic landscape the fairways do look fairly bland. Perhaps an unfair comment based on a couple of photos but you would hope that they would have used the existing topography to create interest rather than creating generally flat fairways simply running between dunes. I wonder if the Irish construction crew worked on the European ?
Niall
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"the standards for the golf experience in Scotland will be taken to new levels of excellence by the addition of Trump International Golf Links."
OK-given what you know thus far, if booking an advance trip to the area and cost not being a factor, how do you split 10 rounds between Trump, Royal Aberdeen and Cruden Bay?
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One of the things I discovered by reading Martin Hawtree's 200-page report on Royal Melbourne (!) was that he believes tees should be "ennobled" to give them more prominence in the landscape. He wanted to build rectangular tees on all 36 holes at Royal Melbourne. They did not take his advice, though.
One interesting thing about the pictures [which are only of the same two holes] is that they planted the greens first ... can't tell whether they have been seeded or sodded, but if seeded, they were done at least a month before the fairways. That's unusual, and I wonder why it was done?
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Tom,
A couple of months ago you didn't like me mentioning the fact that you had replaced Martin as consulting architect at RM, but now you're publicly taking the piss out of the advice he gave the club.
That's some progress! ;)
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Tom, that is indeed odd. Perhaps due to the wind, they seeded the greens early so they could nuke any seedlings that came up in the surrounds prior to seeding other grass species. (I notice the slit fence being used as a wind break in one of the pictures - behind a tee). Only other thing I can think of is they only have very limited water a the moment because the fairway irrigation would probably already be installed. Or maybe it's an experiment with the grass and they wanted enough time to change it if they didn't like it..
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My bet would be that they have been turfed but then I'm the non-gca in this conversation.
Niall
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Just to confirm, the photos are of holes 14 and 15.
Anybody want to chip in, whether they look on schedule for opening next summer ?
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Who actually took these photos of 14 & 15?... I had them sent on to me as well (plus a few others)...
Aside from the squareness of the tees (which is far from rare on British links), I think that you're being a little unfair, Tom... They are hardly built up on pods after all.... Most seem to enter back and side near grade to my eye anyway... Very different to how you'd build them maybe...
When I was there, that area front and left of 15 tees was very wet and the discussion was around whether to drain it (and therefore how to leave it aesthetically) or whether to embrace the water...
I'm not sure how much contour was in the fairways in original form. I only saw the back nine post the initial grading... Scott, SOL (the Irish construction crew) will be working to drawings and specs provided by the designers.... They won't have made the choice on whether or not to retain existing fairway contours...
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The greens and tees are being turfed and the fairways seeded. Also loads of links courses have squared off tees .
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One interesting thing about the pictures [which are only of the same two holes] is that they planted the greens first ... can't tell whether they have been seeded or sodded, but if seeded, they were done at least a month before the fairways. That's unusual, and I wonder why it was done?
I assumed they were photoshopped.
The colours look "too" perfect and there is no blown sand anywhere.
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One interesting thing about the pictures [which are only of the same two holes] is that they planted the greens first ... can't tell whether they have been seeded or sodded, but if seeded, they were done at least a month before the fairways. That's unusual, and I wonder why it was done?
I assumed they were photoshopped.
The colours look "too" perfect and there is no blown sand anywhere.
+1
Ian I thought the same. They did indeed look too good to be true.
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Ian:
I thought they looked photoshopped, too, but why the heck would someone photoshop the tees and greens and not the fairways?
Ally:
How was I being unfair? I didn't comment at all about the tees at Trump International, and the only one I can really see in the photos looks fine. I'm not a fan of square tees, and I certainly didn't think Martin's suggestion of square tees for Royal Melbourne was appropriate since that was never what was there. But all I meant to imply about the tees at Trump is that Martin is apparently a big fan of rectangles, so I would guess all the tees are that way.
I did find YOUR comment about the contractors interesting, that they would not be making any decisions, and just building the course to plans and specs provided by the designer. I'm sure they would say the same, to avoid stepping on toes. But, do you really think that's the best way to go about a project?
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Ian:
I thought they looked photoshopped, too, but why the heck would someone photoshop the tees and greens and not the fairways?
Ally:
How was I being unfair? I didn't comment at all about the tees at Trump International, and the only one I can really see in the photos looks fine. I'm not a fan of square tees, and I certainly didn't think Martin's suggestion of square tees for Royal Melbourne was appropriate since that was never what was there. But all I meant to imply about the tees at Trump is that Martin is apparently a big fan of rectangles, so I would guess all the tees are that way.
I did find YOUR comment about the contractors interesting, that they would not be making any decisions, and just building the course to plans and specs provided by the designer. I'm sure they would say the same, to avoid stepping on toes. But, do you really think that's the best way to go about a project?
Tom,
Apologies if I misinterpreted what you were saying but it did seem that you were implying Hawtrees’ philosophy on tee design is unsuitable for this site as well as Royal Melbourne…
Just the same way it seemed that Scott was implying that these particular golf contractors may have a heavy handed approach to flattening everything out…
You know as well or better than I that the method that Hawtree uses is Design & Tender with site supervision. What I was saying is that there is no way SOL will have had license to make wholesale changes in flattening out fairway contours off their own back (at least they shouldn't have)… Do I think that design-tender-site supervision is the best way to do a project, on a links course especially… I’ll leave that unanswered and you can read between the lines… or I could just say NO... But hey, what do I know?
EDIT: Actually, I should qualify that... As I understand it for this project, the designers are effectively on-site full time and they've had such a close working relationship with SOL in the past that it could be considered kind of a halfway house between two contracting models...
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Ally:
I actually had no idea what Hawtree's method is. You are right, if it's just a construction contract, the contractor should not be making big decisions on what fairway contours to change or leave alone ... but sometimes they do provide valuable input.
I realize you are not an expert on this project, but since you're the one who noted that they are turfing the greens, do you know why they chose that approach vs. seeding? I would always prefer to seed everything, unless the grow-in window is just too short. I guess some people think that sodding the greens makes them come in faster so you can open sooner, but in my experience, it's the fairways or even the roughs, rather than the greens, that are usually the weakest link. The greens are built from perfect material, with perfect drainage, with no major surface drainage across them, and they are a relatively small area -- so grow-in is a breeze. Thirty or forty acres of fairway seeded over a period of months usually yield a couple of problem spots. I suppose Mr. Trump has the money to go out and fix those with sod, too.
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Ally:
I actually had no idea what Hawtree's method is. You are right, if it's just a construction contract, the contractor should not be making big decisions on what fairway contours to change or leave alone ... but sometimes they do provide valuable input.
I realize you are not an expert on this project, but since you're the one who noted that they are turfing the greens, do you know why they chose that approach vs. seeding? I would always prefer to seed everything, unless the grow-in window is just too short. I guess some people think that sodding the greens makes them come in faster so you can open sooner, but in my experience, it's the fairways or even the roughs, rather than the greens, that are usually the weakest link. The greens are built from perfect material, with perfect drainage, with no major surface drainage across them, and they are a relatively small area -- so grow-in is a breeze. Thirty or forty acres of fairway seeded over a period of months usually yield a couple of problem spots. I suppose Mr. Trump has the money to go out and fix those with sod, too.
Tom,
I didn't mean to make it sound like the contractor would not be providing valuable input... I just figured that large changes to contouring would not come without significant designer direction...
Actually it was Ally Matheson of Cruden Bay who noted they were sodding the greens, not me... Common mistake understandably... That said, it seems an unusual decision indeed... I've no idea why it was made though...
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Homogenous:
a : to blend (diverse elements) into a uniform mixture
2 a : to reduce to small particles of uniform size and distribute evenly usually in a liquid
b : to reduce the particles of so that they are uniformly small and evenly distributed; specifically : to break up the fat globules of (milk) into very fine particles
The one tee looks mostly like it was just mowed out and not built, the other was obviously built.
A problem with square tees is that eventually you will need to build them (look man made) vs. just mowing out some flat spots
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I assumed they were photoshopped.
Twice a month, heading to my work, I fly over the site, and can confirm that the photos are not photshopped.
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Tom Doak,
In your estimation, how long before sodded greens putt true and consistant.
I know of sodded greens that took years, even with TLC, before they were true and consistant.
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Patrick,
I think it will take at least six months, which is the time it takes to get a good putting surface from seed. So, to me, it's way more costly and it doesn't speed up the process much at all.
I also have witnessed several places where they had a problem putting sod [which is seldom grown on sand] on top of new sand-based greens, because the heavier soil layer in the sod can form a layer on top of the sand and impede root growth. Not worth the hassle, to me.
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Troops,
It is possible they have looked at the last couple of winters here in the north east of Scotland and decided seeding their greens was risky especially in the first winter when the density is not there to protect the crown of the plant .
Snow laying for weeks on end savage cold easterly burning winds ,slow thaws, Hard frosts then rain then the rain freezing layer upon layer .ITS A TOUGH LIFE BEING A GREENKEEPER LOL.
The past two winters a lot of old established golf clubs with greens over 100 years old from all over Scotland have experienced winter kill/damage in one form or another.
Seeding Greens is imo by far the best way to go if TIME and budget allow .
As Tom D says with bought in sod the soil it is grown on is usually heavier creating probs down the line ,but the biggest problem is the thatch you are recieving ! turf growers profits dictate that they want to give you the thinnest turf possible to save haulage costs ect,to do this they do not box off clippings regularly which lets the thatch build up if not the turf would fall to bits being cut so thin.
I have experience of having to core out thatch in bought in turf over the years.In the end theres not much of the original sod left its mostly what i have overseeded after coring !
In a dream world if you had a money no object project with no time deadlines you would seed everything and allow for the extra time 2 or 3 growing seasons it might take for the grow in depending on weather .Bought in turf especially for greens looks great instantly but quite often there are problems down the line.
Cheers Alister
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I'm pretty sure the turf has come from Tillers in Lincolnshire, and I know they offer greens turf grown on USGA rootzone
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I assumed they were photoshopped.
Twice a month, heading to my work, I fly over the site, and can confirm that the photos are not photshopped.
Ian/Brian,
Channel 4 News did a story on the course last night and from the pictures from the course, the colour of the grass looked very vivid indeed. I assume that they are feeding and watering fairly regularly to get it established ?
In typical British press fashion, they are now beginning to give the Trump Organisation a hard time where before they didn't ask a lot of the obvious questions they should. For instance I read a story the other day about supposed delays in the building of the clubhouse and the rest of the development. The gist of the story being that promises were made etc.
Brian,
From your flights over the site, is most fo the course at a similar stage or are these couple of holes well ahead ? Also, is their any truth that Trump is attempting to shut down the airport because of flights overhead spoiling the ambience of the course ? (that last comment was a joke BTW)
Niall
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Nial
From my view above, I think all holes are shaped but not all the greens and tees are as far on as these in the photos.
10 days away from flying over it again :-\ , but will try and give an update then.
Wish I could take a camera on board with me, but you know what oil companies are like !
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My take on the reason to turf the greens is for the preservation of surface levels. Having seen all my greens at Dornoch Struie blown to oblivion in one afternoon, I can understand why they would want to have the greens nice and cozy under a layer of turf ASAP.
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nice and cozy under a layer of turf
Nice imagery Robin!
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Trump Latest - the Donald has arrived for a visit and has said the first ball will be struck this time next year. Does that sound doable ?
Niall
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Niall
if they are turfing holes now they must be fairly well advanced. This time next year seems possible, depends on the weather I suppose. If you guys have another really cold winter then that may set things back.
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It's certainly possible to be playing next summer, if they get all the fairways planted in the next 6-8 weeks. Otherwise, it's going to be pretty scruffy next June. It's impossible to push fescue to mature, especially in the spring in the cool Scottish climate, so the grass will need to be well established this fall if they want good conditions next June.
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The 14th yesterday :
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/06/20/article-2005444-0CA681B200000578-286_634x373.jpg)
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Brian, you're apparently spending some time on the course. What do you think of what you see?
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Look - They've mown the green sod and put a pin in just for Mr.Trump's visit...
I wonder if the 14th will end up on the "great holes with one bunker or less" thread.... The strategy looks like it might work quite well from that tee shot photo...
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These photos are pleseantly surprising. I don't know how the course will be maintained, but it appears to be a links course, something I was afraid Trump would be unable to allow to happen.
RE Tees: In one of the golf channel's episodes where they follow trump to scotland, he tells hawtree he likes sticking tees into the sides and at the bases of dunes, so maybe we're not giving the hairpiece enough credit (and I'm one of his biggest detractors thanks to Trump LA)...
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Ally
Assuming that Donald is standing on the correct tee, then that is going to be a bugger of a drive, up there in the clouds trying to land a ball on a fairway well below when there is likely to be a good going breeze going. As you know, I'm not one to complain about what others perceive as narrowness, but playing from what looks like an extremely elevated tee on that windy a site is bound to accetuate any error tenfold. Are their more holes like this ?
I always thought that one of the big challenges with a dramatic dunescape like this was to produce a routing that didn't simply feel like you were playing through a valley all the time. Ally, I think I'm right in saying that you have had the tour, how have they dealt with this or it not a concern ?
Niall
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Are there any pics of the water features that will be on the course? Other than the sea.. ;)
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Link to press release on the Trump website from April regarding laying of sod on the tees:
http://www.trumpgolfscotland.com/Default.aspx?p=DynamicModule&pageid=302662&ssid=188183&vnf=1
The press release mentions the grasses they are using.
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Assuming that Donald is standing on the correct tee, then that is going to be a bugger of a drive, up there in the clouds trying to land a ball on a fairway well below when there is likely to be a good going breeze going. As you know, I'm not one to complain about what others perceive as narrowness, but playing from what looks like an extremely elevated tee on that windy a site is bound to accetuate any error tenfold. Are their more holes like this ?
Niall
I wouldnt think it will be much different from some of the front nine holes at Royal Aberdeen, with the prevailing wind in your back the majority of the time.
The biggest problem will probably be climbing up to the tee ;)
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Assuming that Donald is standing on the correct tee, then that is going to be a bugger of a drive, up there in the clouds trying to land a ball on a fairway well below when there is likely to be a good going breeze going. As you know, I'm not one to complain about what others perceive as narrowness, but playing from what looks like an extremely elevated tee on that windy a site is bound to accetuate any error tenfold. Are their more holes like this ?
Niall
I wouldnt think it will be much different from some of the front nine holes at Royal Aberdeen, with the prevailing wind in your back the majority of the time.
The biggest problem will probably be climbing up to the tee ;)
The second and third back tees at 14 are effectively on the same elevation as the green at 13... Martin Hawtree and Caspar Grauballe spent a lot of time minimising green to tee walks both in distance and elevation change, especially for the more regular tees... Many of the very back tees are perched high but will you be playing it at 7,700 yards?....
14 fairway is wide enough Niall, even playing from a height...
Your worry about playing solely through valleys echoed my own... Although there are plenty of holes like this (there has to be because of the scale of the dunes), I was pleasantly surprised that there was good variety in the way the dunes were used, especially on the back nine...
Incidentally, you get many more photos here:
http://www.trumpgolfscotland.com/Default.aspx?p=DynamicModule&pageid=308648&ssid=196900&vnf=1
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To return briefly to the start of this thread and the initial discussion about the merits of the proposed 10th hole with its alternate fairway, I found this photo on the Trump site that I believe shows the the site of the 10th looking from behind the green site back down the fairway. The green site and approaches look really good. Still not sure about the alternate fairway concept, but it becomes clearer that driving to the right fairway gives a better view of the green through the valley between the dunes.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Balmedie/Balmedie10Overlay.jpg)
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/TrumpBM10.jpg)
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To return briefly to the start of this thread and the initial discussion about the merits of the proposed 10th hole with its alternate fairway, I found this photo on the Trump site that I believe shows the the site of the 10th looking from behind the green site back down the fairway. The green site and approaches look really good. Still not sure about the alternate fairway concept, but it becomes clearer that driving to the right fairway gives a better view of the green through the valley between the dunes.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Balmedie/Balmedie10Overlay.jpg)
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/TrumpBM10.jpg)
Bryan,
That is the 10th green site indeed... The visibility is exactly as you state... I know there was discussion about making the right fairway option more desirable than shown in the masterplan... Trying to find that balance to get people going both ways...
Returning to Robin's point about sodding the greens to prevent sand blow, I was told that in one night the sand formation at the 10th green site changed so much as to be unrecognisable from the day before.
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I'm pretty sure the turf has come from Tillers in Lincolnshire, and I know they offer greens turf grown on USGA rootzone
I have used Tillers turf all the way over here in Norway and although it is a superb supplier I find it ridiculous that they have turfed the greens. Unless of the course the greens have been built to USGA recommendations (which is even more ridiculous).
If the greens have been sodded with Tillers (from a USGA medium) on top of a links sand then there could be problems later on as links sand is "normally" finer than a USGA sand. If George Shiels (he normally works with Hawtree) is involved as the agronomist I would be very surprised if he recommended turfing as he is not a great fan of it and certainly is not a fan of washed turf.
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It's certainly possible to be playing next summer, if they get all the fairways planted in the next 6-8 weeks. Otherwise, it's going to be pretty scruffy next June. It's impossible to push fescue to mature, especially in the spring in the cool Scottish climate, so the grass will need to be well established this fall if they want good conditions next June.
Unless a lot of Rye has been sneaked in by Trump.
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I haven't read this whole stream and I am sure that y'all have noticed already from the pic with the stake marking the tee on #14, but it looks like ALL of the FASCINATING rolls in the natural valley have been decimated! So SAD! Could have maybe had some Deal size humps AND dips. It seems everyone involved has ignored the very thing that makes a true links so fun to play - natural ground forms. I don't understand! :'(
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"Returning to Robin's point about sodding the greens to prevent sand blow, I was told that in one night the sand formation at the 10th green site changed so much as to be unrecognisable from the day before."
Ally
That reminds me of the story they tell about John Philps, the greenkeeper up at Carnoustie who is known to detest the stands of pine trees in the middle of the course. They say that every stormy night John gets his chainsaw out and then reports into the links office in the morning to advise that another couple of trees had been last in the previous nights storm.
i wonder if similar kiddology is being used on the authorities so that they can shift a bit more sand than allowed........or alternatively, maybe they really are shifting dune systems !
Niall
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I haven't read this whole stream and I am sure that y'all have noticed already from the pic with the stake marking the tee on #14, but it looks like ALL of the FASCINATING rolls in the natural valley have been decimated! So SAD! Could have maybe had some Deal size humps AND dips. It seems everyone involved has ignored the very thing that makes a true links so fun to play - natural ground forms. I don't understand! :'(
Quite outstanding what has been done on that fairway.
(http://i719.photobucket.com/albums/ww199/alistermatheson/21102009008.jpg)
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/06/20/article-2005444-0CA681B200000578-286_634x373.jpg)
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I haven't read this whole stream and I am sure that y'all have noticed already from the pic with the stake marking the tee on #14, but it looks like ALL of the FASCINATING rolls in the natural valley have been decimated! So SAD! Could have maybe had some Deal size humps AND dips. It seems everyone involved has ignored the very thing that makes a true links so fun to play - natural ground forms. I don't understand! :'(
Quite outstanding what has been done on that fairway.
(http://i719.photobucket.com/albums/ww199/alistermatheson/21102009008.jpg)
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/06/20/article-2005444-0CA681B200000578-286_634x373.jpg)
I think i will reserve final jugement until i see it in the flesh ! I took the top photo whilst on a tour and the natural shapes spines/humps /hollows were outstanding !The shaped fairway behind Donald does look flat BUT lets wait and see ehh !
Alister
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Will,
I think you need to look closer...there is plenty of heaving and rumple in that picture. The pale coloration of the sand makes it harder to distinguish, but it certainly seems to have quite a bit to my eyes. Remember, the wind will shift and move that sand BIGTIME. in days, if it's really blowing. Many architects actually like the wind to shape and do some contouring naturally before turfing or seeding the areas.
I'm quite impressed by what I see thus far, the width seems a bit suspect with the fierce winds that part of Scotland can experince quite frequently, and the very heavy dune grass directly next to fairway lines could be penal, but we must allow for a finished product before final evaluations.
Cheers,
Kris 8)
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A few pics from the beach :
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2783/5843662109_1c69d15115_b.jpg)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3104/5844215990_d2485bb410_b.jpg)
While we are on rumple watch - doesn't look to me like there is much rumple in these two fairways
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"Returning to Robin's point about sodding the greens to prevent sand blow, I was told that in one night the sand formation at the 10th green site changed so much as to be unrecognisable from the day before."
Ally
That reminds me of the story they tell about John Philps, the greenkeeper up at Carnoustie who is known to detest the stands of pine trees in the middle of the course. They say that every stormy night John gets his chainsaw out and then reports into the links office in the morning to advise that another couple of trees had been last in the previous nights storm.
i wonder if similar kiddology is being used on the authorities so that they can shift a bit more sand than allowed........or alternatively, maybe they really are shifting dune systems !
Niall
Mr. Carlton - That is cynicism of the highest order!... Sand blows around if not bound by grass or vegetation...
I'd forgotten about that original photo from 14 tees... There's softening and then there's flattening...
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It's no secret Trump wants the Open. Most of the current Open rota courses have relatively flat fairways. It's no coincidence that the rota course the pros appear to like least, RSG, also has perhaps the most movement in its fairways. Seems to me that flat fairways have been prescribed to make the course tour pro friendly, in the hope of persuading the R&A that it deserves the Open at some stage. If the degree of flattening is as great as these phots suggest, it would appear that Trump and Hawtree have drawn a moustache on the Mona Lisa.
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Ally,
What are you looking at? There are plenty of folds, depressions and small ridges in both of those photos. I don't believe we are looking at finished holes either. They may not have the undulations of a moto-cross track, but there is plenty there to influence the run of the ball.
Mr.Pearce also raises another excellent point. Wild rumple may excite the quirk enthusiasts, and I count myself among them so long as it doesn't range to the bizarre, but you generally don't get an excessive amount of that influence on Open Rota courses. Mr. Trump is thirsting for a Major, as he has made that goal a priority.
Let's at least give the Trumposity Course time to reveal it's finished look before we make our final judgements. My only observation was it looks pretty impressive on the surface(pardon the pun ::)) so far...it was not a premature verdict on greatness, as that remains to be determined.
Cheers,
Kris 8)
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Ally,
What are you looking at? There are plenty of folds, depressions and small ridges in both of those photos. I don't believe we are looking at finished holes either. They may not have the undulations of a moto-cross track, but there is plenty there to influence the run of the ball.
Mr.Pearce also raises another excellent point. Wild rumple may excite the quirk enthusiasts, and I count myself among them so long as it doesn't range to the bizarre, but you generally don't get an excessive amount of that influence on Open Rota courses. Mr. Trump is thirsting for a Major, as he has made that goal a priority.
Let's at least give the Trumposity Course time to reveal it's finished look before we make our final judgements. My only observation was it looks pretty impressive on the surface(pardon the pun ::)) so far...it was not a premature verdict on greatness, as that remains to be determined.
Cheers,
Kris 8)
My word... A man holds up one of the lone voices of positivity through 110 posts and the first sign of dissent and he's shot down!
From these photo's, it appears the fairway contours on 14 have been changed dramatically Kris... Incidentally, I'm not one of the ones who indicated that this definitely shouldn't be done and Mark's point is well made... However my personal preference is to soften first rather than grade the lot and then shape... The movement just may not have worked on this hole though...
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It's no secret Trump wants the Open.
I think he has given up hope of the Open .... for now !
Its the Ryder Cup he really wants.
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Ally
In fairness I think I've heard enough nonsense coming out of the Trump organisation to be allowed a bit of cynicism ;D
With regards to rumple, if its playing hard and fast you won't need much to create interest. Whether that interest leads to any strategic plays remains to be seen but that photo suggests that the 14th is all simply about being on one side or other of the fairway to get round the greenside bunker depending on the hole position.
Mark,
As I've mentioned on other threads, there's no doubt the R&A are, or at least have been very wary about links courses hosting major championships other than the Open as it might dilute the Open brand. I think that would be more of a factor than any issue about the amount of contours on the fairway (that and the usual issues of quality/length of course, infrastructure etc).
Niall
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If many of the holes are as pictured with very high tees in realtion to the fairway, they are going to have lots of problems with playability no matter how wide the fairways are, especially in Aberdeen.
Ask anyone how it is to play the front nine at Royal Aberdeen of some of the high tees they have on the way out. The tees at Trump seem to be even more elevated and open to the wind.
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Well I think Mr Trump will have got a good idea what an Aberdeen summer is like, this week :)
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Ally,
My points weren't made to "shoot you down." They were just observations and no malice was intended.
Brian Phillips,
I totally agree and made the same comment on another thread related to this project. That's why, from my view, unless they want the Balmeanie Death March, they need to widen those fairways some or soften the grass density at the perimeter edges at the very least!
It will be very interesting what the tariff is to play the "greatest course in the world." Does it blow right by the 150 quid that CS christened their opening with in the Highlands? Does he peg it North of KB or Muirfield's large downstrokes? Watch the rate creep unfold, as Royal Aberdeen and Cruden are sure to jack theirs accordingly. It happened already at RD, Brora and the rest shortly after CS opened, and that was before they got the Scottish Open. Rates will surely be dropping now. 8)
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I know there was no malice intended Kris... I just refuse to use one of those little winky faces...
The fairway corridors should play fairly wide in most cases, on the back nine anyway... I didn't see a problem with 14 when I visited and as soon as you start to put human foot traffic (or one gang-mow) over that marram at the foot of the hills where it ties to the new grade, then it will thin out...
Brian - 14 is an elevated tee (and a more spectacular one for not having to climb to reach it from 13 green)... There are a few others but there are also a large number of tees sheltered... There are plenty of courses where wind plays havoc more than it will on this one...
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Just an eensy-weensy little typical anal FBD observation, but why-oh-why do the guys who sprig the marram INSIST on doing it all so freekin EVENLY spaced. Dat's 'orrible.
TAKE a look at NATURE, boys...
Man, I need to get out more.
FBD.
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Just an eensy-weensy little typical anal FBD observation, but why-oh-why do the guys who sprig the marram INSIST on doing it all so freekin EVENLY spaced. Dat's 'orrible.
I just presumed it had been done by machine ?
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I haven't read this whole stream and I am sure that y'all have noticed already from the pic with the stake marking the tee on #14, but it looks like ALL of the FASCINATING rolls in the natural valley have been decimated! So SAD! Could have maybe had some Deal size humps AND dips. It seems everyone involved has ignored the very thing that makes a true links so fun to play - natural ground forms. I don't understand! :'(
Isn't that what his father did at Birkdale?
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Returning to Robin's point about sodding the greens to prevent sand blow, I was told that in one night the sand formation at the 10th green site changed so much as to be unrecognisable from the day before.
Ally:
I do have a bit of experience with building golf courses in sand dunes in very windy places ... I suspect more than anyone on this board.
Yes, it is possible for the sand to get blown around overnight, right up until you plant the green. This is true whether you are sodding or seeding. But, once the irrigation is in place and you can keep the green watered -- and I must assume they had irrigation in place before sodding -- then it is entirely possible to keep the green contours from changing by hydroseeding. I can assure you it's worked on four courses in Bandon, on two courses at Barnbougle, and at other windy sites in Texas, New Zealand, Colorado, and the Hamptons.
Sodding greens is expensive and unreliable, no matter who supplies the sod.
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Sodding greens is expensive...
Maybe that's the point!
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If sodding greens expensive, how ridiculous would it be to roll out turf across the whole course?
I believe that is the plan so they can get their July 2012 opening date
Benny
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Ally,
It's hard for most people looking at the pictures to appreciate the size of the main dunes and the "natural shapes spines/humps /hollows" that have been flattened for the fairway. Based on my trek through those dunes last summer, I'd guess that the humps and bumps in the fairway area were maybe 25 to 30 feet high with the main dunes flanking the fairway being 75 to 80 feet high. I really wonder whether the existing natural shapes spines/humps /hollows could have been retained, but softened, to create a playable fairway. What do you think? It would have been a wild and wooly fairway.
I too am willing to reserve judgement until the course is finished and playable.
I haven't read this whole stream and I am sure that y'all have noticed already from the pic with the stake marking the tee on #14, but it looks like ALL of the FASCINATING rolls in the natural valley have been decimated! So SAD! Could have maybe had some Deal size humps AND dips. It seems everyone involved has ignored the very thing that makes a true links so fun to play - natural ground forms. I don't understand! :'(
Quite outstanding what has been done on that fairway.
(http://i719.photobucket.com/albums/ww199/alistermatheson/21102009008.jpg)
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/06/20/article-2005444-0CA681B200000578-286_634x373.jpg)
I think i will reserve final jugement until i see it in the flesh ! I took the top photo whilst on a tour and the natural shapes spines/humps /hollows were outstanding !The shaped fairway behind Donald does look flat BUT lets wait and see ehh !
Alister
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Yea,
Count me in as one who is hoping there is still some good counturing to be found down there. While what was there looks like too much, it looks like they could have been softened and workable.
Any of the archies want to chime in on that? :)
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Returning to Robin's point about sodding the greens to prevent sand blow, I was told that in one night the sand formation at the 10th green site changed so much as to be unrecognisable from the day before.
Ally:
I do have a bit of experience with building golf courses in sand dunes in very windy places ... I suspect more than anyone on this board.
Yes, it is possible for the sand to get blown around overnight, right up until you plant the green. This is true whether you are sodding or seeding. But, once the irrigation is in place and you can keep the green watered -- and I must assume they had irrigation in place before sodding -- then it is entirely possible to keep the green contours from changing by hydroseeding. I can assure you it's worked on four courses in Bandon, on two courses at Barnbougle, and at other windy sites in Texas, New Zealand, Colorado, and the Hamptons.
Sodding greens is expensive and unreliable, no matter who supplies the sod.
I'm not sure I questioned whether it could work to keep the greens watered and seeded Tom... I know fine well it can and only a fool would counter the amount of experience you've had building in similar conditions... I thought we were just looking for reasons why they might have used sod and Robin's point is one possibility, especially given his anecdote and the amount of exposed sand on this particular site...
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Ken Nice showed me the fresh hydroseeding at Old Macdonald (Hole 4 I think) and it was unbelievably tacky. Nothing was going to move that stuff. Consider me sold on the technology.
The UK isn't quite such a hot bed of hydroseeding expertise and though I know they did a fair bit at No.7, I looked into it when I was based in NE Scotland and it was considered by my clients to be prohibitively expensive. They preferred the 'perfection' of a mature turf surface. You'll get no argument from me over the long term benefits of seed over turf. I merely offer a possible explanation. Of course, it may be no more than a part of Donald's press visit. "Show them fresh, green turf."
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Robin
I'm sure they used it at Castle Stuart as well and the result is outstanding in terms of the playing surface.
Niall
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Ken Nice showed me the fresh hydroseeding at Old Macdonald (Hole 4 I think) and it was unbelievably tacky. Nothing was going to move that stuff. Consider me sold on the technology.
The UK isn't quite such a hot bed of hydroseeding expertise and though I know they did a fair bit at No.7, I looked into it when I was based in NE Scotland and it was considered by my clients to be prohibitively expensive. They preferred the 'perfection' of a mature turf surface. You'll get no argument from me over the long term benefits of seed over turf. I merely offer a possible explanation. Of course, it may be no more than a part of Donald's press visit. "Show them fresh, green turf."
I know they've been hydroseeding (or had planned to) on this course already which makes it a little the stranger... Gavin Kelly at Profile Products had certainly been spending time over there for that reason...
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Two minutes with the Donald from the Telegraph:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/8587155/Donald-Trump-excited-by-very-special-golf-course-in-Aberdeen.html#.TgmrvmLHzKI.email
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They cut the part of the video where he was hoofing it up one of the massive dues to play that duck hook back onto the pristine sod... 8)
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new pics up for trump scotland
http://www.trumpgolfscotland.com/Default.aspx?p=DynamicModule&pageid=308648&ssid=196900&vnf=1
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The pictures look fabulous, however it does not appear to have any space whatsoever to put any spectators, I thought the Open was his dream?