Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Anthony Gray on September 29, 2008, 04:18:23 PM
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In his Confidential Guide which courses did Tom Doak rate a 10. And does enyone know if he would rate any modern courses a 10.
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Anthony:
There were twelve courses in the book which got a 10. They were:
St. Andrews Old Course
Muirfield
Royal Dornoch
Ballybunion (Old)
Royal Melbourne (West)
National Golf Links of America
Shinnecock Hills
Pine Valley
Merion (East)
Pinehurst (No. 2)
Crystal Downs
Cypress Point
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I have since been asked many times on this forum and elsewhere if there are any courses from the last 12 years since the book was published, which I would rate a 10.
I've responded I would probably give that rating to Sand Hills and maybe to Pacific Dunes. There may be a handful of other contenders among modern courses -- including a couple of ours -- but I have not had the opportunity to play any of them enough yet to be comfortable giving them a perfect score.
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I'm sure there is a passage somewhere in the archives, but where can I find the description of Doak's rankings
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I'm sure there is a passage somewhere in the archives, but where can I find the description of Doak's rankings
Shane - here's as good as anything:
http://www.designmentor.co.uk/dynamicpoll/scale.htm
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Thanks Tom
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Tom-
Why do you rank Pacific Dunes higher than Ballyneal. Are there any specific attributes that make Pacific Dunes a potential Doak 10 and not Ballyneal?
Chip
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So who on GCA played all 10?
Come on - fess up.
I played five... :'(
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Chip:
As I thought my above statement made pretty clear, I've played Pacific Dunes about 50 times, with a wide variety of different people. That's enough to be reasonably satisfied that I am basing my rating of the course on how it plays, and not just on how cool I thought my design was.
I've played Ballyneal about ten times ... Cape Kidnappers seven or eight ... Sebonack six or seven ... Rock Creek five ... and Barnbougle Dunes only three times. (And St. Andrews Beach and The Renaissance Club only once each, well before they were ready to open!) So, in all of those cases, I don't feel I have played the course enough to take off my designer's hat and judge them on their playability, and therefore I'm not ready to give any of them a 10. In fact, that's one of the main reasons I won't come out with a new edition of The Confidential Guide -- because I don't want to have to rate my own work anymore. It's a lot less controversial if others rate them instead.
Just FYI, of the dozen courses I rated as 10's in the book, I've either played ten rounds on each of them, or I've been out to see them on 5-6 different occasions over a 20-year period. Obviously, I can't keep that same standard for giving out ratings of 7 or 3 ... and I'm not likely to go back to a "3" ten times ... but if I'm giving out a 10 I want to be really convinced of my score.
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Tom-
Fair enough. I thought you had probably played Ballyneal more than that and I was hoping you would indulge us with a compare and contrast of the two courses. Alas, those days are over and reserved for our causal reading of The Confidential Golf Guide.
Chip
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Is anyone else surprised that Royal Country Down didn't get a 10
Lawrence
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Just gotta get a copy of the Confidential Guide, after a couple of years of hearing you talk about it. I keep thinking every time I enter a used book store I will find one sitting there for the taking. It now looks as though it is "pie in the sky" [where did that expression come from ?] so I am going to have to make the best deal possible on EBay or Craig's List.
Tom, are there any Stanley Thompson courses you have played often enough and may meet that criteria of a "10"? Any you may have played a few times you think could meet that test?
From a recent return to Capilano, I have renewed interest in Thompson and thought I would ask. I think that after a couple of years of hanging around here, I appreciate Cap more than I ever did before, especially with the options of playing short and letting the ball run up on the green.
I will renew my search for a Confidential Guide this weekend.
Bob Jenkins
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Bob:
Not too long ago Tom Doak said on this site that he had never played Banff and Jasper...two of Stanley Thompson's greatest. I don't know if they would be 10s anyway, and maybe Tom has travelled to Alberta to remedy this problem...
Bart
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Bob:
I just returned from a trip to Vancouver, Vancouver Island, and Salt Spring Island, but for various reasons didn't have a chance to play golf while there. Do you think Capilano is the best of the Vancouver-area courses? It looks like it's in a stunning location.
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Bob J,
Next time we play I will bring you mine to look at. I have the one with no pics.
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11
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So who on GCA played all 10?
Come on - fess up.
I played five... :'(
I have been fortunate enough to have played them all except Royal Melbourne.
Additionally, I have only walked the first eleven holes at Pacific Dunes.
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Carl,
Sean Leary, John Mayhugh and I played Capilano in early August. Although it was a first for them, it was the first time I had played there in 4 or 5 years. Athough I had played it about 10 times previously, probably due to the education I have received on this website for the last few years, I was able to appreciate Capilano and Stanley Thompson much more than I ever had in the past. As many have said here before, the routing is amazing but most of all, the strategy of bumping into several of those holes is even more amazing. The only weakness at Capilano, so far as I am concerned, are the short par 5s, ie. 1, 3 and 5. Otherwise it is not far from a 10 or I assume Tom may not have been far from giving it a 10! That is based on having played 3 of the 10s on Tom's list above plus Ballyneal, which is very special.
If you are ever back in this part of the world, would love to show you around.
Bob Jenkins
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Bob:
Thanks very much for the offer. I hope to get back to Vancouver often -- it's one of my favorite cities in the world.
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Lawrence L:
The short answer is no.
RCD's front nine is superior to the back -- for example, the 17th hole is a real let down (the pond being only part of the issue) and the 18th is simply bunker overkill in my mind.
Candidly, Portrush (Dunluce) has the better argument for a possible ten score than the New Castle layout in my opinion.
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Lawrence L:
The short answer is no.
RCD's front nine is superior to the back -- for example, the 17th hole is a real let down (the pond being only part of the issue) and the 18th is simply bunker overkill in my mind.
Although I think that the weak back nine gets overplayed somewhat at RCD... the first few on the back nine are pretty much the equal of the front... 13 is a great hole, 15 is pretty fantastic and the new 16th is a very good short par-4.
It was just 17 and 18 for me... It was just a minor let down to finish the course that way (even though 17 green site is still a really good one and 18 isn't a bad hole, it just seems out of scale and drama for such a dramatic place)
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Matt,
Other than the pond, what are the problems with #17 at RCD?
Is the problem with the pond that it is only about 250 from the tee? Or is there something else?
Re: #18, I got tied up in those bunkers as well, but I think it is a very good hole.
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Lawrence L:
The short answer is no.
RCD's front nine is superior to the back -- for example, the 17th hole is a real let down (the pond being only part of the issue) and the 18th is simply bunker overkill in my mind.
Although I think that the weak back nine gets overplayed somewhat at RCD... the first few on the back nine are pretty much the equal of the front... 13 is a great hole, 15 is pretty fantastic and the new 16th is a very good short par-4.
It was just 17 and 18 for me... It was just a minor let down to finish the course that way (even though 17 green site is still a really good one and 18 isn't a bad hole, it just seems out of scale and drama for such a dramatic place)
I played RCD this summer......While the back is clearly not as spectacular as the front I don't get all the negativity towards #18. Compare for instance #18 at Muirfield which many say is one of the great finishing holes if not the best on the OPEN rotation. What about #18 at Muirfield makes it so much better than #18 at RCD. #18 at Muirfield punishes the tee shot severely but is a straight forward 2nd shot assuming a straight drive. #18 at RCD is a tough driving hole and you are in jail if you miss the green to the left on your 2nd or 3rd shots. RCD was my favorite of the trip with Ballybunion and Portrush (Dunluce) tied at #2. I understand some of the arguments on #17 at RCD but still a great approach and green complex.
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talk about let down. portrush #17 and #18 aren't exactly spectacular. i love portrush, probably in my top 10, but RCD is tied with PV in my book as the best in the world.
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: ;D ;) ;D
I love Doaks' attitude...he has never been afraid to say the "Emperor has no clothes"
In that he knew that they knew ...and they knew that he knew that they knew....more than them about architecture ....they couldn't shout him down ...politically speaking
RAVE ON TOM ! keep posting !!!
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I've been fortunate to play six
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I have also been lucky enough to play 6 of them.
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I've played 3/4 of them and at least 3 of my 9 fall more than a bit short of perfection, but that's just my opinion.
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I've been lucky enough to play four of them.
If the criteria for Doak 10 includes "If you skipped even one hole you would miss something worth seeing" how does Ballybunion qualify with the rather bland back to back par 5s on the front nine?
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St. Andrews Old Course
Muirfield
Royal Dornoch
Ballybunion (Old)
Royal Melbourne (West)
National Golf Links of America
Shinnecock Hills
Pine Valley
Merion (East)
Pinehurst (No. 2)
Crystal Downs
Cypress Point
I've played 8 of them: TOC, Muirfield, Dornoch, NGLA, Shinnecock Hills, Pine Valley, Merion and Pinehurst #2. Of those courses, Pinehurst #2 is not a 10 in my book (if I were to write such a book). Of the remaining 4 courses, I would prioritize seeing them as follows:
1. Ballybunion
2. Cypress Point
3. Crystal Downs
4. Royal Melbourne West (distance being a factor I do not ignore)
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I have played six (I won't count Crystal Downs as I don't remember it). None of them were perfect (no such thing imo) and only Merion would I put in my personal top 10, but this list can change. Of the six, I think Ballybunion was the best based purely on architecture with Merion perhaps its equal.
I have a sneaky feeling that the remaining six may impress me more as a group than the first group. The problem is getting to play them! I would be happy to play any of them, but somehow, being a Michigander I think I should see Crystal Downs sooner rather than later.
Ciao
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4. Royal Melbourne West (distance being a factor I do not ignore)
Wayne-
What did you mean by "distance being a factor I do not ignore"?
Chip
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Chip, Melbourne is far away.
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Got it. I see now.
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Having played all but Royal Melbourne I'm good with the list except I would substitute Royal County Down for Pinehurst#2- . Of the recent course additions, Ballyneal to me would merit being included in the list also.
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JES II, Shane, et al:
The issue I have #17 is that it doesn't add anything to what you've already played. Candidly, the hole belongs more in Florida than it does in Northern Ireland. The pond inclusion is just a contrivance that seems force fed to make something into something more.
I salute the club for the new 16th -- and the comments mentioned earlier about the first few holes as the back nine begins is spot on -- although I don't see the 10th as being an exemplary par-3 -- it's solid but nothing more in my mind.
The 18th at RCD is simply bunker overkill -- again, look at the front nine and the placement of bunkers and the nature of the terrain -- it's more about selectivity rather than bunker bombardment. Is the 18th hole easy? No, not at all. But, it doesn't need to be, in my opinion, a statement of how to throw everything but the kitchen sink at the player when finishing such a wonderful round.
Shane -- you mentioned the 18th at Muirfield and I concur. It's a demanding hole but I don't find it to be architecturally compelling -- when I hold the 18th at Muirfield I can think of other stellar tough par-4's - the ones at Oakmont and WF/W, that offer a good bit more.
Guys, truthfully, when you hold up Dunluce at Portrush to County Down the New Castle layout gets a bit more brownie points because of the proximity of Dundrum Bay and the Mountain of Mourne. I love RCD but I see Portrush as the one layout where a ten is a good bit more possible. Just an opinion that's all.
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I can't see how 17 & 18 at Portrush are better than 17 & 18 at County Down. I agree that silly pond is out of place, but according to Ran's profile it is natural.
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ballyneal!
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Paul:
Thanks for the vote of confidence.
To all:
Y'all are more than welcome to put your thoughts on every course in the world in writing and submit yourselves to inquiry. I've done it and it's not always as fun as you might imagine ... but I've stood by it for 20 years and will have to for many more.
P.S. There are a lot of TERRIFIC golf courses which I only rated a nine ... there is nothing wrong with being a nine.
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Tom....if you don't mind I'm going to stand down a little.....glad you are back but I' m feeling a little punchy......tired too!
All the best.....paul.
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ballyneal!
agreed!
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I see Pinehurst #2 as a Ten when it's set up as a US Open site. I've played RCD six times over the last twenty-two years, each round felt close to a religious experience, a Ten.
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I have played them all with the exception of Crystal Downs.
Bob Jenkins.
I think I have an unopened Guide in my library, if you are interested give me an IM.
Bob
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4. Royal Melbourne West (distance being a factor I do not ignore)
It isn't so far when you are asleep, then when you wake up the women are warm and the beer is cold.
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Just gotta get a copy of the Confidential Guide, after a couple of years of hearing you talk about it. I keep thinking every time I enter a used book store I will find one sitting there for the taking. It now looks as though it is "pie in the sky" [where did that expression come from ?] so I am going to have to make the best deal possible on EBay or Craig's List.
Tom, are there any Stanley Thompson courses you have played often enough and may meet that criteria of a "10"? Any you may have played a few times you think could meet that test?
From a recent return to Capilano, I have renewed interest in Thompson and thought I would ask. I think that after a couple of years of hanging around here, I appreciate Cap more than I ever did before, especially with the options of playing short and letting the ball run up on the green.
I will renew my search for a Confidential Guide this weekend.
Bob Jenkins
Who is mrs freckles and why does she have a copy of the Confidential Guide?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&Item=180293933926&Category=71104&_trksid=p3907.m29
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John,
When looking at eBay last night I was thinking the same thing. How can "Mrs. Freckles" have a CD. Unbelievable
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JES II, Shane, et al:
The issue I have #17 is that it doesn't add anything to what you've already played. Candidly, the hole belongs more in Florida than it does in Northern Ireland. The pond inclusion is just a contrivance that seems force fed to make something into something more.
I salute the club for the new 16th -- and the comments mentioned earlier about the first few holes as the back nine begins is spot on -- although I don't see the 10th as being an exemplary par-3 -- it's solid but nothing more in my mind.
The 18th at RCD is simply bunker overkill -- again, look at the front nine and the placement of bunkers and the nature of the terrain -- it's more about selectivity rather than bunker bombardment. Is the 18th hole easy? No, not at all. But, it doesn't need to be, in my opinion, a statement of how to throw everything but the kitchen sink at the player when finishing such a wonderful round.
Shane -- you mentioned the 18th at Muirfield and I concur. It's a demanding hole but I don't find it to be architecturally compelling -- when I hold the 18th at Muirfield I can think of other stellar tough par-4's - the ones at Oakmont and WF/W, that offer a good bit more.
Guys, truthfully, when you hold up Dunluce at Portrush to County Down the New Castle layout gets a bit more brownie points because of the proximity of Dundrum Bay and the Mountain of Mourne. I love RCD but I see Portrush as the one layout where a ten is a good bit more possible. Just an opinion that's all.
Matt - I would have to agree with Chip - I love Portrush and think it is one of the stiffest tests of driving in the world, however, 17 and 18 are not better than 17 and 18 at RCD in my opinion. 18 at Portrush could probably use an infusion of bunkers similar to some of the changes in bunkering to #18 at RCD. I am not familiar with the history of the design of the 18th at RCD, but if you were to take away most of the bunkers lining the fairway, many would probably say the hole is boring and needs more going on. On that note, i will agree with you that the bunkering on #18 at RCD is a little different than the bunkering "theme" on the rest of the course but I don't think that is necessarily doesn't belong. Just my thoughts.
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Where does Oakmont fit?
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I'm ashamed to say I've been to Oz 6 times and RM 3 times, but never even travelled the hour to Ireland let alone played Bally B. Even worse a good friend is a member........head hanging in shame!
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Shane:
You missed my point -- the greatness of Dunluce at Portrush is that it doesn't have to overdose the landscape with mindless bunkers on its finishing hole. How does having a minefield of endless bunkers at the concluding hole at RCD really add to its architectural qualities? Check out the holes that come before the final two holes at County Down and candidly you have a major melt down with the final two holes. Instead of the final two holes being a solid summary statement on what the day there has been you get a Florida type hole with the 17th and simply overkill with the finale.
Dunluce stays true to itself -- the character of the final two holes there is tied to what you have experienced prior with the holes that have come before it.
Look, I don't want to downplay the many top shelf virtues of County Down - it is a real gem of a layout but when the words perfection are uttered -- one has to see the final two holes there as being less rather than an equal or more compared to all the others.
John S:
In my mind, Oakmont would be a 10.
The recent tree clearing has certainly returned the club to the highest of levels. The recent Men's Open confirmed that for me.
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Matt
Right on, Brother!
One of the great strengths of Portrush is its minimalist bunkering. In addition to a relatively weak finish, Newcastle suffers from overbunkering, and too much foo foo on the bunkers they have.
Rich
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I have played all the courses. I do not think Pinehurst #2 belongs. It lacks the exceptional holes and memorability of the others.
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Is anyone else surprised that Royal Country Down didn't get a 10
Lawrence
Lawrence,
It may be my first choice of places to play - but I wouldn't give it a 10. There are a couple of lesser moments on the back.
Voytek,
I've played 9, walked one more and really want to play the ones I have not.
Matt,
Potrush is great - but I could never see that course as a 10 - the end is disappointing after so many excellent holes.
I've always felt that a players ability had a lot to do with how they saw this course. The best players love it much more than average players.
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I have played all the courses. I do not think Pinehurst #2 belongs. It lacks the exceptional holes and memorability of the others.
I passed on my free round at #7 to walk a second straight round at #2 with strangers. I am certain it is the only course in my life where I walked 36 straight holes with people I did not or care to know. I could have done without the statue of Payne Stewart and do not believe in the Doak system but do think #2 is as fine a golf course as anywhere in the world.
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Matt and others and Tom Doak,
What was Oakmont like when you did the Conf Golf Guide? The clearing and way it looked/played a couple of opens ago were compelling. Would it be a 10 today? I've heard so many great things about the greens but haven't played it to know.
Btw, I agree with the RCD voters. To me, its better than #2 as much as I love it.
JS
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There are 18 Confidential Guides for sale on Amazon tonight with a price range of $383 to $995. Just one on Ebay at $995.
Should Christmas come early?
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Where does Oakmont fit?
a 9, same as Royal CD
I wonder if Tom didn't give them 10s because they are such very difficult golf courses ...
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Ian:
I hear what you say -- my point was to suggest that before County Down can make the case for a perfect 10 -- the 18 at Dunluce / Portrush would likely have a better shot at achieving it.
I don't deny the last two holes are less than the ones that have come before it. But at least those two holes better FIT the actual landscape of the course. County Down has a Florida type hole at the 17th and the 18th is simply a massive overreaction by throwing everything but the kitchen sink at the players.
One other thought -- you mention the feelings of better players versus average players -- I have opined previously on Dunluce that the course has fairway widths that are too narrow and that the bordering rough -- beyond the secondary stuff -- is kept way to high and dense. I'm not a huge fan of Portrush's Dunluce until they can get a better handle on this overly restrictive set-up of the course. When high winds are blowing there the net result is a course that is boderline unplayable in a number of specific instances.
John S / Paul T:
Oakmont has dramatically improved since Doak's first assessment in "Confidential Guide." The style of the course has returned to its roots and the Fownes guiding principles have once again flourished because of attention to such detail and what the couse was meant to be.
I laugh when I hear people talk about the course's difficulty -- when you see the likes of what Crump originally envisioned for Pine Valley.
Oakmont is battle tested as any course to have ever hosted major championship play. With the exception of Sam Parks the roster of champions crowned at the course is one of the best for any regular rota member of such prestigious titles.
The combination of holes and the manner by which the course is routed is often ignored because the difficulty dimension is often spoken about. Oakmont doesn't have the one key hole above all others -- it's the cumulative totality of what you see there that makes the overall package so compelling.
I've been to evey major at Oakmont since my dad took me to the '73 US Open and I was amazed with the course back then. However, kudos to the club for dumping the inane tree proliferation that had only served to push the club in a directon far, far away from what the Fownes family truly meant it to be.
One other aspect worth noting -- kudos to Mike Davis of the USGA for creating appropriate conditions for the playing of the last Open there. The tees were moved up in spots to encourage bold play and the 17th at Oakmont sent a very loud and clear message that when top short par-4's are discussed in all of golf -- the 17th at Oakmont clearly belongs on the very short list of certifiable great holes.
In my mind -- Oakmont is absolute 10. No question about it whatsoever. Those feeling differently need to respond in greater detail and speak to the issue on whether they have been to the course since the major work was completed.
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I am not familiar with the history of the design of the 18th at RCD, but if you were to take away most of the bunkers lining the fairway, many would probably say the hole is boring and needs more going on.
Shane, you could read that sentence as agreeing that 18 is a bit of a let down...
I'm not that fussed about the bunkering on 18 even though it is overkill... I find the hole a slightly weak finisher because of its scale... For me, it feels hemmed in between two smaller dune ridges. It is tight, even claustrophobic which doesn't hold up with the rest of the course... For a finisher on an outstanding old style links, you could also argue that it is a tad disappointing that it doesn't finish with an expansive green just in front of the clubhouse with a great view of everything in front of you from the tee. (That said, the green is pretty great, extremely scary)...
17 I think has a great green complex, green site and approach shot values. Taking the lake out of the equation, the tee shot for me is just a little disappointing, having little to define it in the same way as the rest of the course....
But this is all measuring it against what is a near perfect experience and if these holes were not 17 and 18, you wouldn't hear a word from me...
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I bet a discussion of #2's worst hole would produce far less (=no) consensus than many or even most other courses on the list. #2 is not about flashy or signature holes. It's a solid test all the way from 1 tee to 18 green.
Tom Doak's recent criticisms do bite, however.
How many on this board have played the only course he rated as being better than a 10? I can think of three offhand and set the over/under at 5.
Mark
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And that 10+ course was.... (for the guideless among us...my copy currently resides at the Buffalo Public Library, until I can steal it.)
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Ronald
I won't spoil the fun for you -- enjoy the hunt! (http://www.linksmagazine.com/golf_courses/international/australia/confidential_guide_to_australia.aspx)
Mark
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Shane:
You missed my point -- the greatness of Dunluce at Portrush is that it doesn't have to overdose the landscape with mindless bunkers on its finishing hole. How does having a minefield of endless bunkers at the concluding hole at RCD really add to its architectural qualities? Check out the holes that come before the final two holes at County Down and candidly you have a major melt down with the final two holes. Instead of the final two holes being a solid summary statement on what the day there has been you get a Florida type hole with the 17th and simply overkill with the finale.
Dunluce stays true to itself -- the character of the final two holes there is tied to what you have experienced prior with the holes that have come before it.
Look, I don't want to downplay the many top shelf virtues of County Down - it is a real gem of a layout but when the words perfection are uttered -- one has to see the final two holes there as being less rather than an equal or more compared to all the others.
Matt,
If RCD reversed the nines, i.e. the current 17 & 18 became 8 & 9, and the finishing hole was now the current 9th, would your opinion change. Same 18 holes, different order, best finishing hole in the world - would this make a difference?
I fail to see how you can say that the character of 17 and 18 at Portrush is not different from the previous holes. They are both extremely flat - the flattest on the course. 17 has an enormous bunker staring you in the face (if anyone can tell me of any hole that looks like that in the previous 16 I will stand corrected), and the flattest green site on the course - completely out of character with the previous 16. At 18 you drive off by a busy road to a very flat hole, with its minimalist 11 bunkers and heavy rough.
Ed
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I bet a discussion of #2's worst hole would produce far less (=no) consensus than many or even most other courses on the list. #2 is not about flashy or signature holes. It's a solid test all the way from 1 tee to 18 green.
Tom Doak's recent criticisms do bite, however.
How many on this board have played the only course he rated as being better than a 10? I can think of three offhand and set the over/under at 5.
Mark
Mark
If it is the course I think it is, I'll take the over.
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You're not going to poll Tom Lehman, are you?
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Ed:
Agreed.
Poor choice of words on my part -- the 17th and 18th are not as out of character and out of place at Dunluce / Portrush as the 17th and 18th at RCD. How's that for a bit more clarity? I also didn't say Portrush would get a 10 but that it stand a better chance at achieving it, in my mind, than RCD would. It's just that when you add in the Mountains of Mourne and the close proximity of Dundrum Bay you get a few more brownie points tossed into the heap for the New Castle layout.
Ed, c'mon, let's be a bit more forthcoming -- the 17th at RCD looks more like a hole you would see at a Florida course -- the pond is totally miscast and out of place. The 18th is simply a bombardment of bunkers because it looks like they ran out of other ideas.
In regards to switching the nines -- the issue would still remain -- there would be two holes that simply don't fit the character of what else is there.
No doubt the 9th would make for a grand closer -- but the issue I mentioned would still be present.
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Ed:
Agreed.
Poor choice of words on my part -- the 17th and 18th are not as out of character and out of place at Dunluce / Portrush as the 17th and 18th at RCD. How's that for a bit more clarity? I also didn't say Portrush would get a 10 but that it stand a better chance at achieving it, in my mind, than RCD would. It's just that when you add in the Mountains of Mourne and the close proximity of Dundrum Bay you get a few more brownie points tossed into the heap for the New Castle layout.
Ed, c'mon, let's be a bit more forthcoming -- the 17th at RCD looks more like a hole you would see at a Florida course -- the pond is totally miscast and out of place. The 18th is simply a bombardment of bunkers because it looks like they ran out of other ideas.
In regards to switching the nines -- the issue would still remain -- there would be two holes that simply don't fit the character of what else is there.
No doubt the 9th would make for a grand closer -- but the issue I mentioned would still be present.
DOES anyone know if RCD has considered switching the 9's or the history in this discussion. It is the first thing we brought up after our 36 hole day at RCD this past JUNE? I still hold firm that I like #18 at RCD but obviously it is not #9 which by the way, was IMPOSSIBLE the day we played it. I'm not sure Tiger would have parred it.
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That would mean starting on a par 3.
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good point, but so does Lytham and St. Anne's
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On the evidence of a trip last weekend,
Bally neal and Sand Hills both 10's
other opiniated input...Pinehurst#2...8.5 and Oakmont the same.
well perhaps a 9 for Oakmont. I have not played there since the tree culling.
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Matt Ward,
Do you think 16 fits? I really liked the hole but I thought it felt like a modern hole and did not fit with the rest.
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It would be hard for me to give any course a 10 which borders a neighborhood. That would eliminate Pinehurst. I prefer golf only. No houses no swimming pool.
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It would be hard for me to give any course a 10 which borders a neighborhood. That would eliminate Pinehurst. I prefer golf only. No houses no swimming pool.
That would eliminate Cypress Point also - houses to the right of #2, behind #8.
Interesting standard... but does it need to be absolute?
TH
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It would be hard for me to give any course a 10 which borders a neighborhood. That would eliminate Pinehurst. I prefer golf only. No houses no swimming pool.
By that logic, you also eliminate TOC at St Andrews.
Believe me, it's a solid ten, houses notwithstanding.
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Sean L:
#16 at what course?
Are you referring to Oakmont ?
Thanks ...
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It would be hard for me to give any course a 10 which borders a neighborhood. That would eliminate Pinehurst. I prefer golf only. No houses no swimming pool.
That would potentially eliminate Merion as it has a neighborhood next to it and Pine Valley certainly has homes there as well. All in all, I would say be flexible. Part of the charm in playing TOC is hitting back into town on #18.
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It would be hard for me to give any course a 10 which borders a neighborhood. That would eliminate Pinehurst. I prefer golf only. No houses no swimming pool.
That would eliminate Cypress Point also - houses to the right of #2, behind #8.
Interesting standard... but does it need to be absolute?
TH
With that logic Shinnecock is out.
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As is the Old Course!
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Tom:
I agree with ALMOST all of your "10's".
I cannot see how Oakmont could be left out.
To me Oakmont would be in with Pinehurst #2 on the outside looking in IMHO.
10: Nearly perfect. Every hole at the very least adds something of value to the course as a hole. MUST see these courses to appreciate how good golf architecture can get.
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Matt,
16 at RCD.
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It would be hard for me to give any course a 10 which borders a neighborhood. That would eliminate Pinehurst. I prefer golf only. No houses no swimming pool.
By that logic, you also eliminate TOC at St Andrews.
Believe me, it's a solid ten, houses notwithstanding.
But you are not golfing in somebody's backyard. At Pinehurst people are grilling out in their boxers. For me it is about the whole golf experience. The experiences at places like Bandon, the Honors Course, etc. which are isolated and are solely for golf are superior to those at "golf communities".
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Anthony:
Are you sure you are talking about #2 and not the other courses at the Pinehurst Resort? There are not very many houses adjacent to #2, and I have rarely (if ever) seen a live human being it the back yards of any of those houses while playing the course. I know most of the people who own those houses on #2. I doubt if many of them have a grill in the back yard, and none of the ones I know would be caught dead in their yards in boxers. In fact, most of them probably don't know how to fire up a grill. I think you are putting out bad info, but that's not uncommon on this site. Many seem to confuse Pinehurst with Southern Pines and Aberdeen. Someone recently posted that Pinehurst was plastic with lots of chain restaurants and retail stores. There are NO chain restaurants in Pinehurst. There is one Exxon station, a Jos A. Banks store, and a Lowe's grocery store on the edge of town, but I believe those are actually in Taylor Town. Almost all of the commercial crap and most of the golf courses (other than the 8 Resort courses) are outside of Pinehurst. There may be many fair criticisms of Pinehurst, but "plastic" is not one of them. BTW, I'm happy to report that Tobacco Road is 25 miles from Pinehurst in a neighboring county!
Jim Lewis
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Sean:
Thanks for the clarification.
Intersting that you raise that point because a few of the people I was with when I last played RCD said much the same thing.
I liked the short distance element and the fact that you have a range of different decisions to make with the tee shot.
I just see the next two holes that follow as substandard when held against the bulk of what is there. No doubt RCD excels in so many ways but I see the 16th as adding something to the overall picture.
If you see it differently please tell me why.
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Matt Ward,
Do you think 16 fits? I really liked the hole but I thought it felt like a modern hole and did not fit with the rest.
Sean, when did you play at Royal County Down? There is a new 16th hole that people familiar with the course say is much better than the old one. It was in play for the Walker Cup (September 2007) and I'm not sure how long it had been in use.
The old hole went at right angles to #15, the new one continues on the line of #15. There was a nifty fall away green with a deep, deep front left bunker and a big fall off to the right of the fairway that made most players play down the left side and bring the bunker and over the green into play. It is a little longer than the old #16 which I never saw.
Here's the new hole:
(http://www.royalcountydown.org/16thcall.png)
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Anthony:
Are you sure you are talking about #2 and not the other courses at the Pinehurst Resort? There are not very many houses adjacent to #2, and I have rarely (if ever) seen a live human being it the back yards of any of those houses while playing the course. I know most of the people who own those houses on #2. I doubt if many of them have a grill in the back yard, and none of the ones I know would be caught dead in their yards in boxers. In fact, most of them probably don't know how to fire up a grill. I think you are putting out bad info, but that's not uncommon on this site. Many seem to confuse Pinehurst with Southern Pines and Aberdeen. Someone recently posted that Pinehurst was plastic with lots of chain restaurants and retail stores. There are NO chain restaurants in Pinehurst. There is one Exxon station, a Jos A. Banks store, and a Lowe's grocery store on the edge of town, but I believe those are actually in Taylor Town. Almost all of the commercial crap and most of the golf courses (other than the 8 Resort courses) are outside of Pinehurst. There may be many fair criticisms of Pinehurst, but "plastic" is not one of them. BTW, I'm happy to report that Tobacco Road is 25 miles from Pinehurst in a neighboring county!
Jim Lewis
JIm,
Sorry. I'm not criticizing Pinehurst. My observations were that I was golfing in a golf community. My caddy even had short conversations with a couple of residents. One guy was on his porch and appeared to be wearing bedtime cloths. It was simply an observation. My point is that courses in residential areas detract from the golfing expierence. Nobody would consider the occasional Butler Cabin or Granny Clark's Wynde parts of a golf/residential community. Pinehurst is CLASS but it lacks the ambience of isolated courses.
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Matt Ward,
Do you think 16 fits? I really liked the hole but I thought it felt like a modern hole and did not fit with the rest.
Sean, when did you play at Royal County Down? There is a new 16th hole that people familiar with the course say is much better than the old one. It was in play for the Walker Cup (September 2007) and I'm not sure how long it had been in use.
The old hole went at right angles to #15, the new one continues on the line of #15. There was a nifty fall away green with a deep, deep front left bunker and a big fall off to the right of the fairway that made most players play down the left side and bring the bunker and over the green into play. It is a little longer than the old #16 which I never saw.
Here's the new hole:
(http://www.royalcountydown.org/16thcall.png)
Bill,
I played the new one last year.
I like the hole a lot actually, I just felt like it should be on a modern Doak or C and C course, thats all.
I like 18, and thought 17 was fine.
A Doak 10 in my book.
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Anthony,
I find your position to be absurd. To automatically rule out a golf course because it has a home or two around is ridiculous. It's like someone decided who to vote for President solely on their position on guns, or abortion.
In the real world, land is expensive and golf courses sit on attractive land in good locales. You are expressing a bias to "middle-of-nowhere" golf courses. No one wants to play a course that has homes lining both sides of fairways, but economic reality suggests people like to live near or bordering golf courses.
If anything, I'm more impressed with a designer who takes a tough site in a suburban/urban neighborhood and builds a great golf course. We all want to escape when we're on the golf course, but I can't understand how a few homes along a few holes requires a severe downgrade.
It would be hard for me to give any course a 10 which borders a neighborhood. That would eliminate Pinehurst. I prefer golf only. No houses no swimming pool.
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The first six holes at Ballybunion are views of a graveyard, holiday homes, chain link fence with barbed wire pointing inward so you can't escape, and a large mobile home park. It's a ten in my book.
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If Royal County Down should have been a 10 ... why have they been making changes to it? :(
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There's no such thing as a "bullet proof" golf course; no course has everything.
RCD certainly has as much good, and unique, golf to offer as many of the other "10s" in Tom's book.
I used to like assigning numbers to courses but have come to dislike it more and more. B Darwin didn't need to, so why do we?
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Paul:
I agree; no course has everything. Or, in other words, golf is too big to put it all into 18 holes.
The problem is that a lot of clubs seem to want to try that ... to identify whatever is the course's "weakest link," and keep working on it until there is a different weakest link to work on. It's a never-ending game. That's part of what I was trying to say about Royal County Down.
Plus, nobody on this board writes anywhere near as well as Bernard Darwin. He was a 10. By comparison, nobody here is more than a 7.
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That would be why we're still working on our writing skills, Thomas; trying to eliminate the weaker links.
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You are expressing a bias to "middle-of-nowhere" golf courses. No one wants to play a course that has homes lining both sides of fairways,
It would be hard for me to give any course a 10 which borders a neighborhood. That would eliminate Pinehurst. I prefer golf only. No houses no swimming pool.
I totally agree with you. It is not a severe downgrade but simple not "dream golf".
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Although it in no way ranks as a Diez, Wachesaw East Plantation in south Myrtle Beach is an absolutely enjoyable and challenging round of golf, in spite of the fact that condos line the course.
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Paul:
I agree; no course has everything. Or, in other words, golf is too big to put it all into 18 holes.
The problem is that a lot of clubs seem to want to try that ... to identify whatever is the course's "weakest link," and keep working on it until there is a different weakest link to work on. It's a never-ending game. That's part of what I was trying to say about Royal County Down.
Plus, nobody on this board writes anywhere near as well as Bernard Darwin. He was a 10. By comparison, nobody here is more than a 7.
Tom
Do you think The Confidential Guide would have been a success (or as successful) without the Doak Scale? Did it need the numbers to be controversial or would the prose have been enough?
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It would be hard for me to give any course a 10 which borders a neighborhood. That would eliminate Pinehurst. I prefer golf only. No houses no swimming pool.
Interesting standard... but does it need to be absolute?
TH
Not absolute. But where would you rather kiss your dream girl on a desert island or in someones backyard?
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Paul T:
The whole purpose of the Doak Scale was as a kind of shorthand, so I could use the rest of the page to write about whatever I wanted to without having to say "I love Pebble Beach but ..." Giving the course a 9 accomplished that in one character, and allowed me to write about aspects of the course that I found interesting.
Ultimately, though, the numbers made the book a lot more controversial, and that probably made it more successful (or at least sought-after) as well.
Anthony:
Obviously, I disagree that you can't have a 10 in a residential development, since I put Pinehurst in that category. I don't really have a problem with you saying that for you it is a disqualifier for "10" status ... but I do think it's a problem when I run into panelists (there are many) for whom it disqualifies courses as a top 100 contender or best-new-course contender. It's akin to the baseball writers who won't consider a pitcher for MVP, even though the rules don't make any distinction -- it skews the voting.
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To bring us closer to Doak's Darwinian model, it's not a desert island (an island covered with sand) but a deserted island (one that is devoid of people.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desert_island
A dessert island, however, would easily be the most enticing.
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It would be hard for me to give any course a 10 which borders a neighborhood. That would eliminate Pinehurst. I prefer golf only. No houses no swimming pool.
That would eliminate Cypress Point also - houses to the right of #2, behind #8.
Interesting standard... but does it need to be absolute?
TH
Tom,
Also behind No.2 and to the right of No.4 and behind the 5th Tee.
Bob
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Tom D:
Curious since you have played RCD fairly recently -- do you see the course still as 9 according to your standards?
Second question - can changes / improvements be carried out and further enhance a course? I'm speaking about a good bit more than simply widening fairways and removing trees, and issue of that type. More about specific hole improvements.
FYI -- I think having the numbers no doubt added a bit of controversy but it also provided some greater level of understanding on how different courses size up against one another. Plenty of 19th hole discussions begin and end with such comments from golfers when assessing different courses.
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There's no such thing as a "bullet proof" golf course; no course has everything.
Paul, I would have said Royal Melbourne Composite wore an architecturally bulletproof vest; however, this talk of housing eliminates not only the Composite but the West as well. (The East isn't a 10 but even so one assumes it would be knocked down further given recent changes to several holes due to concerns about nearby housing.)
The Composite is riddled with all sorts of these flaws, not only houses but:
Streets...
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k204/MSBIII/Royal%20Melbourne%20East/L1070124.jpg)
...cell towers...
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k204/MSBIII/Royal%20Melbourne%20East/L1070026.jpg)
...power lines...
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k204/MSBIII/Royal%20Melbourne%20East/L1070130.jpg)
...and smokestacky-looking things!
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k204/MSBIII/Royal%20Melbourne%20East/L1070035-1.jpg)
Mark
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St. Andrews Old Course
Muirfield
Royal Dornoch
Ballybunion (Old)
Royal Melbourne (West)
National Golf Links of America
Shinnecock Hills
Pine Valley
Merion (East)
Pinehurst (No. 2)
Crystal Downs
Cypress Point
I've played 8 of them: TOC, Muirfield, Dornoch, NGLA, Shinnecock Hills, Pine Valley, Merion and Pinehurst #2. Of those courses, Pinehurst #2 is not a 10 in my book (if I were to write such a book). Of the remaining 4 courses, I would prioritize seeing them as follows:
1. Ballybunion
2. Cypress Point
3. Crystal Downs
4. Royal Melbourne West (distance being a factor I do not ignore)
Ah! As of next week I will hopefully have played exactly the same ones as you Wayne...
but my order for future viewing would be:
1. Cypress Point
2. Crystal Downs
3. Royal Melbourne West
4. Ballybunion (last, probably because it is easiest to get to)
PS. ceramic cargo arrived in Atlanta successfully I'm told. thanks again!
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The first six holes at Ballybunion are views of a graveyard, holiday homes, chain link fence with barbed wire pointing inward so you can't escape, and a large mobile home park. It's a ten in my book.
Ballybunion has the distinct advantage of getting its weaker less scenic holes out of the way from the start, so that you finish with the best series of 12 straight holes that exists anywhere, by which time the feelings of imprisonment you may have suffered on the 4th and 5th are a distant memory ;D
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John,
When looking at eBay last night I was thinking the same thing. How can "Mrs. Freckles" have a CD. Unbelievable
It will be interesting to see how this auction turns out. I can't see rare books doing very well in this climate. As a matter of fact another guide popped on the scene just this morning. I wish mrs freckles all the luck in the world during these tough times.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&Item=180293933926&Category=71104&_trksid=p3907.m29
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Be curious -- but I see Pebble and Ballybunion / Old similar in that each has its own array of weak holes. In Ballybunion's case the first third really don't provide much theater -- the uphill 2nd is quite fun but the back-to-back par-5's are really lame. I do like the challenge of the short 6th with its neatly angled green.
Pebble has a similar situation although in that case such holes are spread between the vistas of the ocean holes.
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It would be hard for me to give any course a 10 which borders a neighborhood. That would eliminate Pinehurst. I prefer golf only. No houses no swimming pool.
HARD not Impossible.
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I haven't re-reviewed all four pages of comments, but after seeing pictures of the remarkable restorative work at the Valley Club of Montecito, I wonder if Tom or others might give it some thought as a potential 10?