Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Patrick_Mucci on September 28, 2008, 09:35:44 PM
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Is it due to medal play ?
No matter how diabolical a feature or hole, no matter how quirky, how unique, the worse that can happen to a golfer during match play is the loss of but ONE SINGLE HOLE.
Whereas, under medal play, the same feature or hole can produce an X, effectively ruining a fair to good to great round.
Has medal play accentuated the focus on quirk, resulting in its elimination from existing and future golf courses ?
Does a feature or hole that tends to produce a great range of scoring, read large numbers, come under heightened scrutiny, leading to its ultimate neutering or demise ?
The second green at Pine Valley has to be one of the most unique greens anywhere, but, I wonder, if it existed on another golf course, how long would it last before it was altered/disfigured ?
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The second green at Pine Valley has to be one of the most unique greens anywhere, but, I wonder, if it existed on another golf course, how long would it last before it was altered/disfigured ?
What is the prevailing format at Pine Valley? Do they play more or less medal play than at other golf courses? (I will explain how this is relevant to your contention once you've answered).
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Pat, I do not play any meaningful tournament golf. Rather, my perspective is primarily that of regular member play. In my experience, the typical "game" for routine play usually has roots in match play, such as a nassau, skins or wolf. I honestly can't remember the last time I played a round involving any form of bet or competition where the winner was determined by strokes, whether net or gross. So it would seem to me that in order for medal play to be the primary cause of the demise of quirk, medal play would need to be the rule and not the exception for normal everyday competition. At the end of the day, isn't it normal member play that drives architectural decision-making at all but a select few clubs?
Ed
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Pat-
I believe the answer is yes.
I was talking to Dan Moore (a poster here) about our front nine being longer and much heavily bunkered in 1930 than it is today. He offered that match play mentality meant you wanted - or dealt with - a more challenging course because no one cared - or asked - what you shot.
Watching the Ryder cup match play event was so compelling I did not tune in to the tour championship until very late the final round. Medal play is not as interesting as match play - to watch or compete in.
Does the USGA handicap system make us focus to much on medal play? Is there any way out?
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No Pat, that wasn't the cause. Too many great courses were built over the many years since the early teens of the 20th century. So many of them were filled with greens of quirk, character and a great deal of contour. That was when Open tournaments decided by score became the vogue. Think Texas & Eastern Opens; in fact by the early 1920's annual open tournaments with prize funds in the $6-10,000 range became established across the country.
It was the money tournaments themselves that were supported by those who attended them to pay the prize funds that brought about the demise of match play.
As the public became enamored with the great players of the day, professionals became the heroes of the game and the ones to be imitated. That their greatness was measured by the stroke play tournaments in which they competed changed the mentality of both the style and preferred method of play for amateur golf and golfers.
Technological advances in shafts, clubheads and golf balls changed the game from one where the ground game mattered to one where it was played through the air. It is this that has caused the design changes that has taken much of the "quirk, character and contour" out of modern design and redesign...
Improvements in maintenance equipment allowed greens to be cut lower increasing green speeds and even changing the way players putted. I am convinced that Arnold Palmer stopped winning both majors and tournaments, not because he couldn't hit great shots or that his game suffered from tee to green, but simply because he couldn't adapt his pound the ball into the ground style of poutting to the quicker green speeds of the 1960's & 70's.
If you want any of the old matches on the golf channel you will see that this putting style was quite common and that even Nicklaus employed it very early on. What set Jack apart was his ability to learn how to roll a ball rather than strike it when putting...
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Pat, I think stroke play is part of the problem. Heavy equipment another.
It's one reason I like working in Europe (not building carts paths another. They play Stableford, so you can find or create holes or courses that take more than one round to figure out.
Unfortunately this advantage has rarely been utilized.
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I think that the marketplace has put an emphasis on downplaying quirk in golf course architecture much more than any influence by medal vs. match play. I think the customers who hire the architects are not as interested in quirkiness as the early golf course developers were. Tony is on to something when he says that heavy equipment is a big component as well, but you have to have a client who has the courage to accept quirk in a modern design. The 14th at Bandon Trails is a prime example of a quirky hole that would have been built that way ninety years ago but would very seldom survive now. It has survived with only minor changes despite controversy. Keiser is willing to accept the criticism and is happy to accept the quirk in a modern design. I'm sure the architects hereabouts can give us other examples, but this is a pretty solid one, it seems to me.
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Patrick -
I think the easy/obvious answer is that, since quirk, character and contour are all attributes of nature and of the natural world, it was the decades-long and progressive devaluing of nature on American golf courses that led to the (temporary) demise of those elements. An undue emphasis on the so-called "demands of the game" came at the expense of the "experience of the sport", and was aided by (as Phil notes) a professional ethos that was ever-more influential and by (as Tony notes) heavy equipment that allowed an architect's ego to obliterate nature's wisdom.
PS - And I'd like to think that I've got both Dr. Mackenzie and Max Behr watching my back on this one.
Peter
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I think another reason is the fear of criticism or non acceptance from the general public, who simply think that quirky is "unfair"
Whoever said this game had to be fair..and who determines what is fair.
Some of the best holes at Sand Hills and Ballyneal have "quirky" putting surfaces that some would say are ubfair...heck no...just tough.
For example...I just played Sand Hills and on number 13 from the back tee into the wind I nailed a number 2 hybrid...strauight into that yucca which is 6 feet from the putting surface on the lip of teh left bunker....it was a perfect shot, would have hit the bank of the bunker and been really close but no...unplayable..fair..no way...quirky..absolutely..awesome...yes, even though it meant a bogey.
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Patrick:
How many people play stroke play in a casual round? In my experience, almost none.
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Patrick:
How many people play stroke play in a casual round? In my experience, almost none.
Jason,
Do you mean match play? I rarely play match play and is usually reserved for GCA type events as I don't participate in any real tournaments other than corp sponsored 4 man scrambles.
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How many people play stroke play in a casual round? In my experience, almost none.
Most club's require golfers to post scores, irrespective of the nature of their round, casual, serious or tournament..
That's how golfers obtain an accurate, current handicap.
If you only post selected rounds, that's cheating, isn't it ?
Some clubs will post a round for a member NOT returning their card/score
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I love that second green at PV and I have always wondered when people would repro that.
I also love 9 at Oakmont. On the day I build a golf course, expect to see that.
...and a biarritz too...
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Patrick:
I think the demise of quirk and character and contour can be attributed to only two things:
1. The ability to remove it with equipment, and
2. The lack of value placed upon it by most architects of the past half-century.
There is no reason you can't build a course with such features anymore. It's just that most architects don't want to. Presumably they shy away from quirk because they are afraid of criticism, or perhaps because their clients don't want it, but the reasons lie with architects individually.
I'm sure I have lost out on many potential jobs because the client thought my work was too quirky, but oddly enough, I can only remember one client who DID hire us who expressed concern about too much quirk and contour -- and that one client was Mike Keiser!
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Pat:
I believe the quest for "score" does indeed take away from the Game as some of us love it.
Every weekend we have multiple games--there are usually 2 groups that play off scratch (or close to it) and create pairings/teams accordingly. We then will have a low gross game as well.
Yesterday, we did a 6/6/6 game with team specs, and then did the typical gross game.
My triple on 17 pushed me to 8 over and killed any chances of winning.
The whole round we were obsessed with how many over everyone was, where everyone was sitting, etc.
For the afternoon round, a guy and I went out and did a "winner picks next tee" game--and did a purely match play game, playing the course HOW and WHERE we wanted to play from.
It was some of the most fun I've ever had....we were playing the women's tees on some holes, and the back of the back tees on other holes. In fact, we played NEIGHBORING holes tee boxes on another hole. making an entirely new golf hole than we've ever played.
And guess what, not worrying about score, but rather putting the ball in the hole first, was quite fun.
And it brought back the "fun" to our course--it's not always fun playing a course that's flat and 7300+ yards. It's way more fun to try to cut corners, drive greens, go for par 5s in two, hit to a far away fairway/spot, etc. etc.
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Terry, you're right about the owner. Another plus for Europe. If you have an idea that doesn't fit the general prescriptions you can sell a developer on the idea. You've got to sell it, and be enthusiastic... believe it.
Sometimes that isn't enough. I think I lost one project in the mountains embracing their site instead of bulldozing it. It required a significant amount but they were adamant about flattening many of the best contours. They visited one of my projects and asked why I didn't bulldoze a short par-4 flat so you could see the green. I just couldn't get through to them the roll of the land made the hole.
Michael, I was going to put "ratings and rankings" on there too. I think some are afraid a quirky hole could spoil the image. Instead of explaining it, better not to build it.
Mail-in designs don't loan themselves to quirk either. It can easily slip to quack.
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How many people play stroke play in a casual round? In my experience, almost none.
Most club's require golfers to post scores, irrespective of the nature of their round, casual, serious or tournament..
That's how golfers obtain an accurate, current handicap.
If you only post selected rounds, that's cheating, isn't it ?
Some clubs will post a round for a member NOT returning their card/score
Patrick:
We have very different experiences. At both my muni and my country club, almost every round is a match play round. I have played little stroke play since college (20 years ago) and have very rarely had someone even suggest a stoke play wager.
Handicap posting rules accomodate this approach - you are required to post match play scores. You may pick up if you are out of a hole or have reached your max (usually the same thing). Even if you have not reached your maximum score but are out of a hole, you may pick up and post the score that you reasonably believe you would have achieved. In my experience, most people play out the hole, unless they are at their max or have a short putt that is meaningless in the context of the match.
I would be interested in knowing the percentage of groups that every player finishes out every hole. I would guess less than 1 percent.
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We have very different experiences. At both my muni and my country club, almost every round is a match play round. I have played little stroke play since college (20 years ago) and have very rarely had someone even suggest a stoke play wager.
Handicap posting rules accomodate this approach - you are required to post match play scores. You may pick up if you are out of a hole or have reached your max (usually the same thing). Even if you have not reached your maximum score but are out of a hole, you may pick up and post the score that you reasonably believe you would have achieved. In my experience, most people play out the hole, unless they are at their max or have a short putt that is meaningless in the context of the match.
Let me see if I understand this.
You play matches at your club, for money, against your fellow members.
But, you're allowed to control your handicap by posting a score that you deem would be achieved had you continued to play the hole ? ? ?
That's a formula for disaster and cheating.
It's probably one of the easiest ways to pad a handicap.
I certainly wouldn't feel comfortable playing against anyone from your club.
I would be interested in knowing the percentage of groups that every player finishes out every hole. I would guess less than 1 percent.
I can't speak to the rest of the universe, but, in the game I've been playing in for many years, everyone finishes the hole.
WHY ?
Because, in order to form a more perfect handicap assessment for everyone, in addition to having a low ball match, we also play a high ball match. Thus, everyone fights to the finish, and we almost always play in under 4 hours. The group has been composed of golfers from zero to 24 handicaps, so, that's a decent spectrum.
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I have recently played Ballyneal and Sand Hills...The rumors of the demise of quirk, character and contour are greatly exagerated.
Bart
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We have very different experiences. At both my muni and my country club, almost every round is a match play round. I have played little stroke play since college (20 years ago) and have very rarely had someone even suggest a stoke play wager.
Handicap posting rules accomodate this approach - you are required to post match play scores. You may pick up if you are out of a hole or have reached your max (usually the same thing). Even if you have not reached your maximum score but are out of a hole, you may pick up and post the score that you reasonably believe you would have achieved. In my experience, most people play out the hole, unless they are at their max or have a short putt that is meaningless in the context of the match.
Let me see if I understand this.
You play matches at your club, for money, against your fellow members.
But, you're allowed to control your handicap by posting a score that you deem would be achieved had you continued to play the hole ? ? ?
That's a formula for disaster and cheating.
It's probably one of the easiest ways to pad a handicap.
I certainly wouldn't feel comfortable playing against anyone from your club.
I would be interested in knowing the percentage of groups that every player finishes out every hole. I would guess less than 1 percent.
I can't speak to the rest of the universe, but, in the game I've been playing in for many years, everyone finishes the hole.
WHY ?
Because, in order to form a more perfect handicap assessment for everyone, in addition to having a low ball match, we also play a high ball match. Thus, everyone fights to the finish, and we almost always play in under 4 hours. The group has been composed of golfers from zero to 24 handicaps, so, that's a decent spectrum.
Pat,
I hear what you are saying about completing holes and handicapping. However, see the below from the MGA site in the posting scores section.
Posting Scores - Frequently Asked Questions
INCOMPLETE HOLES
A player who picks up and does not finish a hole, must record a score for handicap purposes using the following procedure(s):
A player whose score will have no effect on the outcome of a hole, should help speed up play by picking up! If a player picks up before he has completed a hole, he shall record the score he most likely would have made had he completed the hole, not exceeding the maximum allowable under Equitable Stroke Control (ESC). Picking up before a hole is completed does not require or entitle a player to automatically post his ESC maximum.
When a player's next stroke is conceded, the same procedure applies. For handicapping purposes the player shall record the score he most likely would have made had his next stroke not been conceded, again, not exceeding the maximum allowable under ESC.
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We have very different experiences. At both my muni and my country club, almost every round is a match play round. I have played little stroke play since college (20 years ago) and have very rarely had someone even suggest a stoke play wager.
Handicap posting rules accomodate this approach - you are required to post match play scores. You may pick up if you are out of a hole or have reached your max (usually the same thing). Even if you have not reached your maximum score but are out of a hole, you may pick up and post the score that you reasonably believe you would have achieved. In my experience, most people play out the hole, unless they are at their max or have a short putt that is meaningless in the context of the match.
Let me see if I understand this.
You play matches at your club, for money, against your fellow members.
But, you're allowed to control your handicap by posting a score that you deem would be achieved had you continued to play the hole ? ? ?
That's a formula for disaster and cheating.
It's probably one of the easiest ways to pad a handicap.
I certainly wouldn't feel comfortable playing against anyone from your club.
I would be interested in knowing the percentage of groups that every player finishes out every hole. I would guess less than 1 percent.
I can't speak to the rest of the universe, but, in the game I've been playing in for many years, everyone finishes the hole.
WHY ?
Because, in order to form a more perfect handicap assessment for everyone, in addition to having a low ball match, we also play a high ball match. Thus, everyone fights to the finish, and we almost always play in under 4 hours. The group has been composed of golfers from zero to 24 handicaps, so, that's a decent spectrum.
Pat
I don't think handicapping per se is the reason for softening courses. Speed of greens is a case in point. Some features have to be removed if greens are to run at 12. I do think the idea of fairness and its associated meanings is pervasive. For instance, bunkers not blind, greens nor running front to back, bunkers not in centre of fairway. However, I see this idea crop up in both medal and matchplay (non qualifier for handicap) so I don't think handicaps are in any way to blame. Besides, handicaps have been around as long as architecture has.
I do agree with you concerning matchplay. Under no circumstances should a player post a score in which he didn't hole out. The entire idea of a score in matchplay is nonsense and should be creyed doon.
Ciao
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JBriggs,
The problem is that so few golfers pick up and stop playing a hole.
In a perfect world the MGA language makes sense, but, ask yourself, do you want to play every hole, or pick up and only complete one third of them ?
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JBriggs,
I'm also not sure if I can go along with "the score I would have recieved".
Hell I can't even count the #of times I've been 20 yards from the green and skulled one into the bunker or over the green, hit the next on, and two putted. And by the same token, just as much I've knocked that pitch stiff for a nice up and down. Unless you have a short putt (3 feet or less) the variance would seem to be too large to make a guess, especially for high cappers.
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JBriggs,
I'm also not sure if I can go along with "the score I would have recieved".
Hell I can't even count the #of times I've been 20 yards from the green and skulled one into the bunker or over the green, hit the next on, and two putted. And by the same token, just as much I've knocked that pitch stiff for a nice up and down. Unless you have a short putt (3 feet or less) the variance would seem to be too large to make a guess, especially for high cappers.
Kalen,
I agree (with both you and Pat). I tend to finish out every hole with the exception of when I have hit my max (which unfortunately still tends to happen more frequently than I would like), or when I am conceded a put in a match play format.
I didn't even post what the MGA handicapping FAQ's has with repect to Incomplete Rounds. If you only play say 14 holes, its acceptable to enter the scores you reasonably would have had on the remaining 4.
Jim
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We have very different experiences. At both my muni and my country club, almost every round is a match play round. I have played little stroke play since college (20 years ago) and have very rarely had someone even suggest a stoke play wager.
Handicap posting rules accomodate this approach - you are required to post match play scores. You may pick up if you are out of a hole or have reached your max (usually the same thing). Even if you have not reached your maximum score but are out of a hole, you may pick up and post the score that you reasonably believe you would have achieved. In my experience, most people play out the hole, unless they are at their max or have a short putt that is meaningless in the context of the match.
Let me see if I understand this.
You play matches at your club, for money, against your fellow members.
But, you're allowed to control your handicap by posting a score that you deem would be achieved had you continued to play the hole ? ? ?
That's a formula for disaster and cheating.
It's probably one of the easiest ways to pad a handicap.
I certainly wouldn't feel comfortable playing against anyone from your club.
I would be interested in knowing the percentage of groups that every player finishes out every hole. I would guess less than 1 percent.
I can't speak to the rest of the universe, but, in the game I've been playing in for many years, everyone finishes the hole.
WHY ?
Because, in order to form a more perfect handicap assessment for everyone, in addition to having a low ball match, we also play a high ball match. Thus, everyone fights to the finish, and we almost always play in under 4 hours. The group has been composed of golfers from zero to 24 handicaps, so, that's a decent spectrum.
Patrick -
Apparently, you have never read the USGA's guidelines on establishing a handicap. We do it correctly. It has never posed a problem in my experience. If it did, that person would have a hard time finding a game.
From the USGA Handicap Pamphlet
http://www.usga.org/playing/handicaps/understanding_handicap/RIB.pdf
Incomplete Holes or conceded strokes
If you pick up on a hole or are conceded a stroke, record the score you most likely would have made. This most likely score is the number of strokes (including penalty strokes) taken thus far, plus the number of strokes it will take you to complete the hole from that point. An “X” should precede the score on the scorecard(i.e. x-5).
Holes Not Played
When a hole isn’t played, your score for the hole is par plus any handicap strokes to which you’re entitled, based on your Course Handicap™. This also applies to any hole that you do not play by the Rules of Golf.
Equitable Stroke Control™
Equitable Stroke Control™ (ESC)™ keeps an exceptionally bad hole from changing your Handicap Index® too much and sets a maximum number that a player can post on any hole depending on the player’s Course Handicap™. For handicap purposes, after the round you are required to adjust your hole scores (actual or probable) when they are higher th a n
your maximum ESC™ number you can post.
All scores, including tournament scores, are adjusted for ESC™. There is no limit to the number of holes on which you can adjust your score for ESC™.
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I do agree with you concerning matchplay. Under no circumstances should a player post a score in which he didn't hole out. The entire idea of a score in matchplay is nonsense and should be creyed doon.
Ciao
Sean
Under the US system you are required to post a score if you play matchplay. To not do so would be cheating for handicap purposes.
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Let me see if I understand this.
You play matches at your club, for money, against your fellow members.
But, you're allowed to control your handicap by posting a score that you deem would be achieved had you continued to play the hole ? ? ?
That's a formula for disaster and cheating.
It's probably one of the easiest ways to pad a handicap.
I certainly wouldn't feel comfortable playing against anyone from your club.[/b]
I can't speak to the rest of the universe, but, in the game I've been playing in for many years, everyone finishes the hole.
WHY ?
Because, in order to form a more perfect handicap assessment for everyone, in addition to having a low ball match, we also play a high ball match. Thus, everyone fights to the finish, and we almost always play in under 4 hours.
Pat:
You are a good player. You play with other good players.
You don't pick up/conceed holes on a regular basis? Everything is putted out?
Whoa.
Most all good players I play with (including some current Canadian and Nationwide Players) ALL pick up if they're out of a hole, or a putt is conceeded.
But, then again, most don't post non-tournament scores, either because they ONLY play in non-handicapped events, are already below the magic 1.9 index, or are professional (no handicap).
This comes as a suprise to me, knowing how much competitive amateur golf you've played.
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You are a good player. You play with other good players.
I play with a very broad spectrum of golfers, not just good golfers.
In my regular group the higher handicaps start at 24, go down to the high teens, low teens, high single digit to an occassional low digit.
You don't pick up/conceed holes on a regular basis?
Absolutely not, but, here's the reason.
If 12 guys show up, we play in three foursomes, all playing against each other, so no one picks up because there's a high ball match and a low ball match.
In addition, we make two man teams in each group and they play against other two man teams in the other groups. Those matches are elective.
Then, we play individual matches against fellows in the other groups and sometimes amongst ourselves, so again, nothing is conceded or picked up because you never know what your opponent has scored, so you keep on playing until you hole out.
Same with putts, nothing is conceded.
You'd be surprised how many short putts are missed.
When other guys try to play with our group, they're shocked that putts within the leather aren't conceded. You get a dicey little sidehill, downhiller that means a lot and you'd be surprised by the number of three putts.
Also, we keep a seperate handicap system.
ONLY scores shot in our group during matches count toward your handicap.
So, our handicaps are brutally efficient.
Guys whose handicaps are based on rounds with their wives or with conceded putts get eaten alive the first month. Many don't make it to the second month.
And, there's one other thing.
Nothing is sacred, save for one topic, children and grandchildren.
Everything else is fair game, and you'd better have a thick skin and no how to take it.
One fellow joined us and never made it to the 9th tee.
He tried several other times and got as far as the 16th green before calling it a day.
As Rodney Dangerfield said, "It's a tough crowd", and, it's a highly competitive crowd.
It's the only game I know where 18 handicaps expect to make natural birdies.
But, after the round, we're all friends.
We take a trip of two a year to other destinations.
An available casino is a requirement.
We've been doing this for 40+ years, and it's as much fun today as it was 40 years ago. We have our moments, but, we've had a great deal of fun and good golfing company.
As to conceded putts, NOTHING is conceded, everything must be putted out because we're not in the same group with those we're competing against.
Everything is putted out?
EVERYTHING !
Otherwise it wouldn't be fair to the other groups.
Most all good players I play with (including some current Canadian and Nationwide Players) ALL pick up if they're out of a hole, or a putt is conceeded.
Once you introduce a high ball match, you can't pick up, your partners will kill you. Sometimes a 9 or a 10 wins the highball match.
And, we can't concede any putts because it wouldn't be fair to the other groups.
But, then again, most don't post non-tournament scores, either because they ONLY play in non-handicapped events, are already below the magic 1.9 index, or are professional (no handicap).
All of our scores, shot in our competition, are posted.
This comes as a suprise to me, knowing how much competitive amateur golf you've played.
I play the great majority of golf with my friends.
Obviously, in a tournament, concessions are made and taken, but, not in our group. It's a tough crowd.
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JBriggs,
I'm also not sure if I can go along with "the score I would have recieved".
Hell I can't even count the #of times I've been 20 yards from the green and skulled one into the bunker or over the green, hit the next on, and two putted. And by the same token, just as much I've knocked that pitch stiff for a nice up and down. Unless you have a short putt (3 feet or less) the variance would seem to be too large to make a guess, especially for high cappers.
You just stated why it works and didn't even realize it. Yes, sometimes you will find a way to take 4 strokes to get down from near the green when you would try for 2 and think 3 is your worst case scenario. On the other hand, once in a while you knock the damn thing in.
If you have a situation where you'd expect that half the time you'll get up and down and half the time you won't, nothing stops you from taking a "half stroke". You'd just take two strokes down one time, note it, and take three strokes the next time you are in the same situation.
Is it perfectly accurate? No, but it isn't like the handicap system is completely flawless even if you follow every rule and play every hole out, because most of us are going to add a few strokes playing on a really windy day and there's no adjustment for that. Or this time of year, when in the next week or two I'll get to look forward to playing on greens that are punched AND so many leaves in the rough that my fairway misses will almost certainly lead to 2 or 4 extra strokes, again not accounted for in the handicap system (there are days when on some holes you can lose balls even hit into the center of the fairway)
I have pointed out many times that someone who wanted to sandbag "honestly" could just play on the days with the worst weather and worst conditions, and achieve a handicap a half dozen strokes higher than it should be, even if they played every round with their pro, their priest and their wife.
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I do agree with you concerning matchplay. Under no circumstances should a player post a score in which he didn't hole out. The entire idea of a score in matchplay is nonsense and should be creyed doon.
Ciao
Sean
Under the US system you are required to post a score if you play matchplay. To not do so would be cheating for handicap purposes.
Jason
I don't care what the USGA states. I think it is a load of nonsense to write down a score when you didn't actually acheive the score. In their fervor to get people handicapped (what?), which I suspect is part of trying to grow the game, the USGA has gotten this one badly wrong.
Ciao
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Most all good players I play with (including some current Canadian and Nationwide Players) ALL pick up if they're out of a hole, or a putt is conceeded.
But, then again, most don't post non-tournament scores, either because they ONLY play in non-handicapped events, are already below the magic 1.9 index, or are professional (no handicap).
What exatly is this "magic 1.9 index," and why do players already below it not post non-tournament scores? Surely it is not because they want to maintain an artificially low handicap so they can play in thsoe tournaments.........?
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"The second green at Pine Valley has to be one of the most unique greens anywhere, but, I wonder, if it existed on another golf course, how long would it last before it was altered/disfigured ?"
Patrick:
While the 2nd green at PV is very unique there is about it something quite different compared to very, very many greens in America and the world and that is even if it is enormous and with those two massive inline (front to back) rolls in it as well as a generally fairly steep back to front pitch, there actually is a way to get the ball from anywhere on that green to any pinnable spot and also to get it close (even given the fairly high greenspeeds they run there). It may take a ton of imagination and execution but believe me it is possible and that cannot be said of numerous other greens in this world.
And THAT may be the real brillance of that 2nd green at PV----eg as intimidating as it may look to putt or chip it really is possible to get the ball close from anywhere on it or around it to any pin they use.
I don't know whether any of you guys have ever heard of the so-called "Zorro" putt you can have on that green to a particular pin placement but it surely is the most amazing putt I've ever seen or had on any golf course that I've played in the world. That particular putt is also the most memorable putt I have ever struck in my life! When I had it and in a tournament match it just seemed so counter-intuitive I really didn't want to try it but my caddie encouraged me to try it anyway and I did. Not only was it pretty counter-intuitive to me but it also had to have taken a far longer elapsed time from getting struck to going into the hole than any other putt I've ever had or have ever seen.
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TEPaul,
How many first time golfers would ever consider trying the "Zorro" putt, especially in a competition ?
That putt takes a lot of practice and a lot more nerve.
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"TEPaul,
How many first time golfers would ever consider trying the "Zorro" putt, especially in a competition ?
That putt takes a lot of practice and a lot more nerve."
Patrick:
I have no idea how many first time golfers would consider trying that putt or would even recognize it. Does that matter? The point is, it is there and it can be done.
This kinda gets into something I learned from Bill Coore when they were building Friars Head and the 7th green. He was just going apeshit over a potential putt and chip on a part of that hole. Then I said: "Bill, how many golfers do you think would even recognize that it's possible?", and he said: "I don't know but at least it is there and it's possible."
Patrick, THIS is what really great architecture is all about and it's those kinds of architects who can visualize that kind of nuance that it emanates from! ;)
Speaking of the 2nd green at PV----most do not know that Colt wanted to put it about 20-30 yards to the left and he wanted to put the tee for #3 at about the back middle of the present 2nd green. Crump would not have that and he put it where he originally had it on his routing before Colt arrived.
However, in Colt's hole by hole booklet that really doesn't have any internal (vertical) green contouring on it on any of the holes or green areas he drew in that booklet or on the big map we bought off Ebay, there is one really interesting little thing on the top of the page on that particular hole---eg #2. On the top of it there is this little doodle that matches the swales and inline rolls on that green if viewed from the front. Who did that little doodle? I have no idea but I doubt it was Colt. More likely Crump after Colt left since he did do the green in a place where it is now and to the right of where Colt proposed it. Plus what was used to mark it on the page was different than what Colt used in his booklet.
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;D ;) 8)
Nothing like the second at PV that I've ever seen .....one of the most amazing things about the green is that even at warp speeds you can figure a way to get a four or five footer for a two putt....note the aforementoned Zorro putt by TEP ..... for those who might not get what he speaks of you use the "Z" effect of two hills to cut the velocity caused by the dramatic downhill fall.
We used to speak of "parabolizing " big breaking putts ...to kill speed by playing into a hill and in effect playing for a two putt.....to go right at the putt was valiant...but stupid!
Not sure if the second is quirky .... but it is brilliant...
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What exatly is this "magic 1.9 index," and why do players already below it not post non-tournament scores? Surely it is not because they want to maintain an artificially low handicap so they can play in thsoe tournaments.........?
USGA.
And the guys I play with are good enough to not worry about going over that.
I'm the crappiest in the bunch.
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Patrick:
I can understand your game's intricacies and why you'd want to putt everything out then. Protecting the field, etc.
It should be noted that nothing is "given" in our group if there is a chance it's going to be missed--i.e. as the shittiest putter in the group, I RARELY hear "that's good" because I miss so many short putts.
I guess it's all relative to whom you play with....
Oh yeah, as for putting out, the 15ish or so stroke play tournaments a year I play in has helped teach me to put the ball in the hole.
Rob Chesnut (from here) plays in a game at his club where they do that....but a 12 inch putt at his club can break 12 inches as well....
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"TEPaul,
How many first time golfers would ever consider trying the "Zorro" putt, especially in a competition ?
That putt takes a lot of practice and a lot more nerve."
Patrick:
I have no idea how many first time golfers would consider trying that putt or would even recognize it. Does that matter? The point is, it is there and it can be done
TEPaul,
Am I correct in recalling that you haven't ever played TOC? If this Zorro putt is what I assume it is (deliberately aiming up high on one side, which then breaks across the direct line to the hole to the other side, and then down to the hole, forming a big 'Z') then you really owe it to yourself to fly to St. Andrews, skip the queue at the starter's shed for TOC and pay about $2 US to play the Ladies' putting course (Himalayas) There are multiple opportunities for Zorro putts, and on one hole the last time I was there I found the best option to be a 'W' putt that crossed the direct line to the hole three times!
That doesn't even include what kind of crazy stuff you can do if you are smarter than I am and go before the kids get out of school so you could perhaps play the course "cross country" as it were instead of playing the course as intended.