Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Adrian_Stiff on September 20, 2008, 09:27:47 AM
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The new Golf World Course rankings are out; Turnberry got the #1. The Castle course was the highest new course at #67, Remedy Oak made it at #89, New Zealand got back in at #91, Dundonald new at 93. St Andrews New (last time 70) is no longer top 100, K Club was a big dropper too, Queens Course at Gleneagles was another casualty, newish courses St Andrews bay (Torrance), The Grove and The Wisley also dropped out the 100.
They also listed the next 100 (though not in any order this time) , Renaissance Club was included, Celtic 2010 and St Pierr got back in.
1. Turnberry
2. R C Down
3. R Birkdale
4. TOC
5. Muirf
6. Carnasty
7. R Portrush
8. Woodhall spa
9. Loch Lomond
10. Sunningdale old
11. Dornoch
12. Kingsbarns
13. Waterville
14. Ballybun
15. Hoylake
16. RSG
17. Lytham
18. Portmarnock
19. European
20. Wentworth west
21. Walton old
22. Saunton east
23. Troon
24. Sunningdae new
25. Nairn
26. County Louth
27. Ganton
28. Lahinch
29. West Sussex
30. Glen Kings
31. Formby
32. N berwick
33. Berk red
34. Prestwick
35. Alwoodly
36. Aberdeen
37. Doonbeg
38. St Enodoc
39. Deal
40. Porthcawl
41. West Gailes
42. St Davids
43. Hillside
44. Notts
45. machrihanish
46. West Norfolk
47. Carne
48. Silloth
49. St G hill
50. Cruden Bay
51. Rye
52. Swinley
53. Woburn Marq
54 Wentworth East
55 Little Aston
56. Gull #1
57 C Sligo
58 Blairgowrie
59. Donegal
60.Ballyliffen
61. Island
62. Machrie
63. Woburn Duke
64. berk blue
65. Aldeburgh
66. Walton new
67. The Castle Course
68. Hunstanton
69. B & berr
70. M Juliet
71. Old head of kins
72. Ferndown old
73. Adare
74. hankley
75. Lindrick
76. Tralee
77. Woking
78. Worpl
79. Southerness
80. C House monty
81. Rosapenna
82. Chart hills
83. Aberdovey
84. broadstone
85. Addington
86. West hill
87. Castletown
88. Gleneagles Cent
89. Remedy Oak
90. RAF
91. New Zeal
92. druids Glen
93. Dundonald
94. K Club
95. Nefyn
96. Belfry
97. South & Ains
98. Dukes Course ST And
99. Goodwood
100. St Mellion
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Is this the one RCD has been at #2 for last few editions?
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Sorry to see Brora's too brief tenure in the top 100 come to an end! :(
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Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I believe it just goes to show how good these rankings are. They reflect the opinions of the few and are as accurate as the Good Wine Guide.
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Hoylake above RSG? Loch Lomond above Sunningdale?
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
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I don't see the point of this list. Year-to-year changes are mostly background noise, and there is maybe one new course every five years that deserves to crack the top 75. (If a new course finishes 85th, it will likely be gone in favor of the next new course pretty soon.)
I guess they just think everyone is a sucker for lists even if it's a list that never changes.
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Who has played Remedy Oak? is it really top 100?
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I played Turnberry twice last week , and even taking the horrible weather we have had this summer , I thought the condition of it was terrible .
The member I was playing with , said the rumour was they were closing it down in October , and that was it until the Open in July .
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Would any of you place Belfry in the top 100?
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Jim
I can see Belfry as a bottom of the list top 100 course - though it wouldn't make my list. In fact, my list wouldn't go to 100. 75 is more than ample spots to pick the best of GB&I
The two I don't understand are Nefyn & St Mellion.
I have never heard of RAF or Remedy Oak.
No mention of Brora, Beau Desert, Tenby, Huntercombe, Princes, Wallasey, or Pennard - comfortable top 100s all more deserving than Hillside.
It is heartening to see courses like Addington, Donegal & Castletown continue to garner some accolades despite very few people talking them up.
Ciao
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I am staying in Donegal for a week from next week....so it looks like the course is worth a visit then?
I would not put the course in the Top 100 at all. I played the Ryder Cup week when it got canceled in 2001. I had tickets to the event but as everyone knows it was postponed to the year after. Anyway I played the same week and even though it was in immaculate condition I was bored to tears....
Turnberry is one of my favourite courses in the world but I wouldn't put it ahead of Royal County Down. I cannot understand the popularity of Royal Birkdale which I find to be one of the most uninteresting links courses on the Open rota.
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It continues to amaze me why Turnberry gets rated so highly >:(
Swinley and St Georges Hill should be better ranked than what they are.
Jim
I certainly wouldn't play The Belfry before Brora....
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I don't see the point of this list. Year-to-year changes are mostly background noise, and there is maybe one new course every five years that deserves to crack the top 75. (If a new course finishes 85th, it will likely be gone in favor of the next new course pretty soon.)
I guess they just think everyone is a sucker for lists even if it's a list that never changes.
Good point Tom. The same may well come to the US lists. As fewer and fewer courses are built our US will become more static.
JC
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The Golf World top 100 GB & I is bi-annual and is certainly the most respected and definitive list. Its panel is comprised of architects, writers, and in fairness it is pretty fair. There will always be a few raised eyebrows of certain positions, and the top 100 is a collation of 100 voters. I met one the other day Dale Concannon and I was amazed when I spoke to him afterwards how much he took in re the course in just one visit (probably more than most would in 30 visits). His opinion about courses fairly corresponded with mine, I also think that this latest list would fairly correspond with TDs CG, I dont think much would be a point out.
Remedy Oak is pretty good to outstanding according to some of my friends that have played it, the worst comment I have heard is that it could have been even better.
The Belfry is much better as time has gone by, if you strip the course down there are not too many flaws now, its very 'American' with fountains and lakes, but the majority like those things. Its still a must play because of the history for Brits although its too be skipped when you all come across as there are more interesting plays.
I saw Turnberry for the first time last year and I was impressed, Troon I was dissapointed (in half the course) and Prestwick was kinda WOW!!! although it sorta needs a redo to take out the 'sillys'. Dundonald was quite nice, Barrasie very nice (never even made the 200!)
For me I would find it hard not to have either Muirfield or TOC at the top, great golf courses are like pretty girls they are all nice but maybe the ones that smiled back we favour.
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I have never heard of RAF or Remedy Oak.
Sean,
Royal Ashdown Forest perchance?
cheers,
Effers.
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If anyone can post a link to see the rankings online, that would be appreciated. Thanks!
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For those guys who have played Waterville since the changes made by Fazio, and Ballybunion, does Waterville deserve to be ranked higher. I have never played either.
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As much as lists mean little, this is the one I wait for... As Adrian said, it's biennial and has a large ratings panel...
That said, the changes are all cosmetic really... although it's interesting to see that they have got rid of one of their previous rulings - that a new course had to be open at the time of the previous rankings to qualify for entry... i.e. that it had to be at leat 2 years old... this was surely so that they could consider The Castle Course... But with that decision, I'm disappointed not to see The Renaissance in there...
As for The Belfry, I was pretty much bored by it as well...
The most significant new entry appears to be the Dukes Course at St Andrews... seems to give a thumbs up to the changes of a few years ago.
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I just went to buy this - is it the one with Faldo on the front saying "how we are going to win the Ryder cup"?!! If so, there is no mention of Top 100 - this was the October Issue. Just wondering if this was an old version and if the Top 100 is the November edition?
While not wanting to read this thread as I always look forward to reading the magazine, I did notice someone metioned Remedy Oak - I have heard very good things about this course but have not played it.
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Paul -
Golf World usually does the Top 100 list in the November issue.
DT
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I just went to buy this - is it the one with Faldo on the front saying "how we are going to win the Ryder cup"?!! If so, there is no mention of Top 100 - this was the October Issue. Just wondering if this was an old version and if the Top 100 is the November edition?
While not wanting to read this thread as I always look forward to reading the magazine, I did notice someone metioned Remedy Oak - I have heard very good things about this course but have not played it.
Should be in the shops this week Paul.
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The issue is on the newstands from the 25th.
I agree with Ally & Adrian the Golf World rating is well researched and the reviewers are mainly top golfers, writers, architects, administrators and respected people from the world of golf. There is no booking a (free) tee time for 4 and expecting to get wined, dined and fawned over.
Tom B - They rated Loch Lomand over Sunningdale Old in 2000, 2002 and 2004.
Tom Doak - I take your point about new courses breaking in and out and there are few true changes. However from our perspective at Deal in the '90s we were in the top 30 and drifted out to a low of 49 by 2000. Massive investment in the course and a move to low impact sustainable practises over the last 4 years has reaped benefits and we now climb 6 places to 39. Add in the effect or 3 or 4 new courses such as Kingsbarns, European and Loch Lomond and I would say the club has plenty to be proud of.
It's good to see New Zealand getting back in the top 100, as Sean Arble's current post shows it's a quality venue but at 6000yds length isn't a driver in these ratings.
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Chappers-
I hardly ever post anymore but I think Deal superior to Turnberry.. I'm not going to go into the merits of it hole by hole but as someone who has seen 60+ courses on this list, I think Deal and Sandwich are underrated.. Also, I like the European Club but it is way way too high as is Berkshire Red. Woking is a much better course than the Red as is the Addington..
Then again, I'm a Deal homer..
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Woking is a much better course than the Red as is the Addington..
i'd go with this....
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Should courses of sufficient difficulty to host professional events get a boost in these rankings? I'm divided on the question. On one hand, such difficulty is usually a detriment to the enjoyment of 99% of the people that play the course. On the other hand, any objective standard of greatness would, in my opinion, require that the course provide an interesting variety of challenges to all classes of players.
For whatever it is worth - this is how I would rank the courses I have played.
I would add Brora to the list in the range of Gullane (probably just above) and I would consider adding Lundin Links somewhere in the same range(although I could be blinded by the great time I had at the Buda Cup).
4. TOC
14. Ballybun
28. Lahinch
11. Dornoch
1. Turnberry
32. N berwick
34. Prestwick
6. Carnasty
41. West Gailes
13. Waterville
76. Tralee
23. Troon
56. Gull #1
71. Old head of kins
37. Doonbeg
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Woking is a much better course than the Red as is the Addington..
i'd go with this....
Does Woking not get a bad deal as it is quite short?
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Chappers-
I hardly ever post anymore but I think Deal superior to Turnberry.. I'm not going to go into the merits of it hole by hole but as someone who has seen 60+ courses on this list, I think Deal and Sandwich are underrated.. Also, I like the European Club but it is way way too high as is Berkshire Red. Woking is a much better course than the Red as is the Addington..
Then again, I'm a Deal homer..
Tuco
I too would take Deal over Turnberry in a heartbeat, but then I would take Pennard at least 6-4 out of 10 over Deal mainly because of Deal's confined routing.
It is interesting that both Addington and Woking are your shoe ins over Red. I do like both of these courses more than Red with Addington getting the pip on Woking and maybe the only inland course in GB&I I would place in the top 10, but I don't know if it is a shoe in decision.
IMO, Sandwich is always way under-rated as I believe it is probably the best combination of championship golf and member play of any course in GB&I and therefore should be #1.
Ciao
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If you are in THIS top 100 list and I would probably go as far as saying it is the only list you need to be in, you can add £1,000,000 to the value of your course, that equates to about £3 on your green fee btw.
Also to get in the second 100 is pretty good and that attracts golfers and green fees, it is a commercial world and it is important.
heres the next 100, not in any order.
Archerfield (dirle) Archerfield (east lothian), Ardglass, Ashburnham, Ashridge, Ballybunion (cash), Banburgh Castle, Bearwood Lakes, Berkhmpstead, Blackmoor, Boat of Garten, Brocket Hall, Brora, Carden Park, Carlton House (Omera), Castlerock, Ceann Sibeal, Celtic Manor (2010), Connemarra, Crail, Crowborough, Delamere, Dooks, Downfield, Druids Heath, Dunbar, East Devon, East Sussex (west), Enniscrone, Fairhaven, Felixstowe Ferry, Forest of Arden, Forest Pines, Fota Island, Fraserburgh, Fulford, Glasgow Gailes, Gleneagles (Queens), Hanbury Manor, Hayling Island, Purdis heath, Irvine, Isle of Purbeck, K Club (Smurfit), Killarney (Killeen), Kilmarnock Barrasie, Kings Lynn, Knole Park, La Moye, Ladybank, Leven, Liphook, Littlestone, London Club (Hertigae), Luffenham Heath, Luffness, Lundin, Machynys, Monifieth, Montrose, Moortown, Murcar, Palmerstown, Panmure, Parkstone, Perranporth, Portmarnock Hotel, Portstewart, Princes (Shore & Dunes), Pyle & kenfig, Rennaissance, Royal Dublin, Royal Jersey, RND (Westward Ho), Royal Worlington, Saunton (West), Scotscraig, Seacroft, Seaton Carew, Sheringham, Shiskine, Skibo Castle, Slaley Hall, Southerndown, St Andrews (NEW), St Andrews Bay (Torrance), St Pierre, Stoke Park, The Buckinghamshire, The Grove, The Oxfordshire, The Players Club, The Roxburghe, The Wisley, Thurlestone, Trevose, Turnberry (Kintyre), West Lancs, Woburn (Duchess), Woodbridge.
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That second 100 covers most of the missing courses, but they still miss plenty that are just as good.
Wonder what Ran makes of W Ho! in second 100 :'(
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Woking is a much better course than the Red as is the Addington..
i'd go with this....
Does Woking not get a bad deal as it is quite short?
woking has a new set of tees (the blacks) and is 6600 yards par 70.. stout for all but the plus handicaps
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Chappers-
I hardly ever post anymore but I think Deal superior to Turnberry.. I'm not going to go into the merits of it hole by hole but as someone who has seen 60+ courses on this list, I think Deal and Sandwich are underrated.. Also, I like the European Club but it is way way too high as is Berkshire Red. Woking is a much better course than the Red as is the Addington..
Then again, I'm a Deal homer..
Tuco
I too would take Deal over Turnberry in a heartbeat, but then I would take Pennard at least 6-4 out of 10 over Deal mainly because of Deal's confined routing.
It is interesting that both Addington and Woking are your shoe ins over Red. I do like both of these courses more than Red with Addington getting the pip on Woking and maybe the only inland course in GB&I I would place in the top 10, but I don't know if it is a shoe in decision.
IMO, Sandwich is always way under-rated as I believe it is probably the best combination of championship golf and member play of any course in GB&I and therefore should be #1.
Ciao
Sean- the big difference b/t Deal and Pennard is that we could have an Open Championship at Deal anytime.. not so sure you could say the same for Pennard.. There is not one indifferent shot at Deal (few if any) followed by another indifferent shot.. For me, there are a few holes at Pennard where I would argue the course sags a little..That said I've only been there for 1 full day (walking and then playing) with RT.
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Chappers-
I hardly ever post anymore but I think Deal superior to Turnberry.. I'm not going to go into the merits of it hole by hole but as someone who has seen 60+ courses on this list, I think Deal and Sandwich are underrated.. Also, I like the European Club but it is way way too high as is Berkshire Red. Woking is a much better course than the Red as is the Addington..
Then again, I'm a Deal homer..
Tuco
I too would take Deal over Turnberry in a heartbeat, but then I would take Pennard at least 6-4 out of 10 over Deal mainly because of Deal's confined routing.
It is interesting that both Addington and Woking are your shoe ins over Red. I do like both of these courses more than Red with Addington getting the pip on Woking and maybe the only inland course in GB&I I would place in the top 10, but I don't know if it is a shoe in decision.
IMO, Sandwich is always way under-rated as I believe it is probably the best combination of championship golf and member play of any course in GB&I and therefore should be #1.
Ciao
Sean- the big difference b/t Deal and Pennard is that we could have an Open Championship at Deal anytime.. not so sure you could say the same for Pennard.. There is not one indifferent shot at Deal (few if any) followed by another indifferent shot.. For me, there are a few holes at Pennard where I would argue the course sags a little..That said I've only been there for 1 full day (walking and then playing) with RT.
Tuco
Its true, Deal may be able to host an Open, but if thats the trump card, then gca is in trouble. If I want to measure golfers I look at majors. If I want to measure courses I look at the course, not what it can or cannot host. IMO, Deal is restricted by its out and back routing. This in and of itself creates shots which are less than ideal. That said, I do think Deal is a wonderful course, its just on the fringe of top 25 rather than top 10 like I believe Pennard is. No worries though - almost everybody is closer to your opinion than mine. Such is the fate of a guy who believes 100% in the land dictating the quality of a course. Bottom line, Pennard is on a better piece of land.
Ciao
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Pennard seems to generate mixed opinion amongst people. I think the nahsayers towards it probably rate the courses taking condition into account more so than others and Pennards conditioning is often not great although in a way it kind of adds to its charm. I have only just noticed Pennard does not even dent the 200 which seems very harsh. Westward Ho is another that suffers from the conditioning factor, I think it probably now belongs somewhere lower than 101, but not above Pennard.
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Pennard seems to generate mixed opinion amongst people. I think the nahsayers towards it probably rate the courses taking condition into account more so than others and Pennards conditioning is often not great although in a way it kind of adds to its charm. I have only just noticed Pennard does not even dent the 200 which seems very harsh. Westward Ho is another that suffers from the conditioning factor, I think it probably now belongs somewhere lower than 101, but not above Pennard.
Adrian
I think you are right about conditioning, bit it is more than that. Pennard is also short, has a lot of quirk that takes getting used to, lightly bunkered, usually windy and always f&f. I don't think folks can take all of these elements terribly often. To me, they are what make Pennard undoubtably great.
I can never understand how a course like RND could get rated higher than Pennard - to me its not even close - 9-1 whitewash and the 1 is just for the sake of variety. Though I like RND well enough and it may make my top 100.
Ciao
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The inclusion of Slaley Hall in the "Next 100" is absurd. It probably isn't top 500.
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OK, if Pennard is a big MISS from the top 200, what other ones do we have?
I'll mention one that has fallen about 100 places from 2 years ago and disappeared (when in theory, I'd expect it to be going up) - Queenwood
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OK, if Pennard is a big MISS from the top 200, what other ones do we have?
I'll mention one that has fallen about 100 places from 2 years ago and disappeared (when in theory, I'd expect it to be going up) - Queenwood
How bout Beau Desert and Huntercombe not getting a mention? Huge oversight. Wallasey? These are all comfortable top 100s.
I would also plug for Whittington Heath, Strandhill and Kington for top 200 and banging on the door of top 100. WH is every bit the course Delamere Forest is and I don't see it that far below Little Aston.
Finally, where the heck is West Cornwall & Conwy?
Ciao
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OK, if Pennard is a big MISS from the top 200, what other ones do we have?
I'll mention one that has fallen about 100 places from 2 years ago and disappeared (when in theory, I'd expect it to be going up) - Queenwood
Where the bl**dy hell is The Valley course at Portrush. That course is so staggeringly underrated it is untrue. It should be in the top 100 at least.
Plus, how is Enniscrone not in the top 100? Amazing.
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A few that I like and think are as good or better than many in that 200 list:
Brokenhurst Manor, Beaconsfield, Belvoir Park, Portrush Valley, Harborne, Camberley Heath, Leckford, West Lancs, Manchester, Blackwell
I haven't seen Prestbury or Stoneham but I'm sure these are easily good enough.
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It continues to amaze me why Turnberry gets rated so highly >:(
Food for thought - what is the one course the professionals can join as members in that area - when most private clubs won't have them. Turnberry. I think you would find that to be a factor. It also sets up very well from the tee and is fairly straightforward to play.
I would take Prestwick over it any day of the week - but that's cause I love luck and chance more than most.
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A few that I like and think are as good or better than many in that 200 list:
Brokenhurst Manor, Beaconsfield, Belvoir Park, Portrush Valley, Harborne, Camberley Heath, Leckford, West Lancs, Manchester, Blackwell
I haven't seen Prestbury or Stoneham but I'm sure these are easily good enough.
Paul
That is a good shout with Stoneham.
For myself, the bottom line is that so many of these top 200 courses are good, but not so good as to recommend going far out of the way to play. For the most part, if you are in the area have a go or if some other better option falls through have a go. Where I think Pennard, Huntercombe, Kington and Beau Desert are not quite the type of courses one builds a trip around, but they are easily worth a day's detour to see. I spose this is why I think a list like this is only really good up to MAYBE 75 courses. The rest are regional/local favourites of which any area has some.
Ciao
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OK, if Pennard is a big MISS from the top 200, what other ones do we have?
I'll mention one that has fallen about 100 places from 2 years ago and disappeared (when in theory, I'd expect it to be going up) - Queenwood
Ally- Strangely Queenwood has never made the top 100 GOLFWORLD list... the new edition lists a comprehensive last 25 years section. I think Queenwood may have been in another magazines 100 maybe.
Tenby and Killarney (Mahoneys) are two courses (there may be others) that have been in the top 100 but no longer even figure in the 200.
Sean - When you mention the sort of courses you do it just shows the strength even down to 300 (GB & I), there are loads more of great courses.
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Adrian
Yes, I agree that listing all the contenders for the top 100 is more helpful for the avid golfer, but I am not buying that all of the top 100 are great courses or that there is anything close to 300 great courses in GB&I.
I knew Tenby wasn't selected for top 100 (wrongly imo), but to be left out of the top 200 is incomprehensible.
Having said all that
Pennard
Tenby
Huntercombe
Wallasey
Beau Desert
Kington
is an overseas trip I would be delighted to take!
Ciao
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OK, if Pennard is a big MISS from the top 200, what other ones do we have?
I'll mention one that has fallen about 100 places from 2 years ago and disappeared (when in theory, I'd expect it to be going up) - Queenwood
Ally- Strangely Queenwood has never made the top 100 GOLFWORLD list... the new edition lists a comprehensive last 25 years section. I think Queenwood may have been in another magazines 100 maybe.
Tenby and Killarney (Mahoneys) are two courses (there may be others) that have been in the top 100 but no longer even figure in the 200.
Sean - When you mention the sort of courses you do it just shows the strength even down to 300 (GB & I), there are loads more of great courses.
Adrian, I think Queenwood was 'one to watch' in 2002 or 2004 and then when they introduced the top 200 in 2006, it was up at around 110 maybe?
Do they ever use the original Killarney course?... Both Killeen and Mahony's Point are really just half a course unfortunately, aren't they?
Someone mentioned that Barassie wasn't there but it is under Kilmarnock Barassie...
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OK, if Pennard is a big MISS from the top 200, what other ones do we have?
I'll mention one that has fallen about 100 places from 2 years ago and disappeared (when in theory, I'd expect it to be going up) - Queenwood
Ally- Strangely Queenwood has never made the top 100 GOLFWORLD list... the new edition lists a comprehensive last 25 years section. I think Queenwood may have been in another magazines 100 maybe.
Tenby and Killarney (Mahoneys) are two courses (there may be others) that have been in the top 100 but no longer even figure in the 200.
Sean - When you mention the sort of courses you do it just shows the strength even down to 300 (GB & I), there are loads more of great courses.
Adrian, I think Queenwood was 'one to watch' in 2002 or 2004 and then when they introduced the top 200 in 2006, it was up at around 110 maybe?
Do they ever use the original Killarney course?... Both Killeen and Mahony's Point are really just half a course unfortunately, aren't they?
Someone mentioned that Barassie wasn't there but it is under Kilmarnock Barassie...
Ally- yes you are probably right on Queenwoods top 200 in 2006. yes I think the 36 Killarney courses do comprise parts of the OLD, I dont know if the older layout can still be played. Kilmarnock barassie is ofcourse the same as Barassie, my mistake I just looked through the Beeeees and saw it not there. St Andrews Jubilee looks a glaring miss as well.
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Do Tain and/or Goslpie merit Top 200 consideration?
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OK, if Pennard is a big MISS from the top 200, what other ones do we have?
I'll mention one that has fallen about 100 places from 2 years ago and disappeared (when in theory, I'd expect it to be going up) - Queenwood
Not trying to be biased but I believe my home course at Bearwood Lakes is well worth being in the top 100 - as it is now in Golf Monthly and Top 100 website - I rate it the equal of many of the local heathland courses and still in my top 10 courses, having played many of the top-ranked inland courses. Indeed, I think it is a better course than Wentworth West! It is still the best parkland (non heathland or links) course that I have played - and it has been in generally superb condition throughout all the wet weather (hollow tining aside) and this is testament to all the drainage work that has been done in recent years. Biased, maybe, but still trying to be objective!
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Adrian
Yes, I agree that listing all the contenders for the top 100 is more helpful for the avid golfer, but I am not buying that all of the top 100 are great courses or that there is anything close to 300 great courses in GB&I.
I knew Tenby wasn't selected for top 100 (wrongly imo), but to be left out of the top 200 is incomprehensible.
Having said all that
Pennard
Tenby
Huntercombe
Wallsey
Beau Desert
Kington
is an overseas trip I would be delighted to take!
Ciao
I normally agree pretty much with you but I think Tenby, Huntercombe and Kington should miss the 200. Tenby is quite short now isn't it and significantly changed? Huntercombe I think would be solid in the next 100 but I dont see it better than many in that next 100 and Kington is a new one to me (introduced by pics by you) but probably just too quirky and short and I think length does play a big part in the selection process of how the panelists considered.
When I looked at the second 100 the only ones I looked at and questioned were courses that I just had virtually no knowledge of, Courses like Tandridge, Burnham Beeches, Calcot Park, St Andrews (Jubilee), Mere suprise me that they are not there, I am sure many of the newer ones like Bovey Castle (ex Manor House) will be dissapointed not to have made the top 200, very few have played all the courses but some of the newer ones simply miss out because of their history.
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OK, if Pennard is a big MISS from the top 200, what other ones do we have?
I'll mention one that has fallen about 100 places from 2 years ago and disappeared (when in theory, I'd expect it to be going up) - Queenwood
Not trying to be biased but I believe my home course at Bearwood Lakes is well worth being in the top 100 - as it is now in Golf Monthly and Top 100 website - I rate it the equal of many of the local heathland courses and still in my top 10 courses, having played many of the top-ranked inland courses. Indeed, I think it is a better course than Wentworth West! It is still the best parkland (non heathland or links) course that I have played - and it has been in generally superb condition throughout all the wet weather (hollow tining aside) and this is testament to all the drainage work that has been done in recent years. Biased, maybe, but still trying to be objective!
Paul- I have a feeling Bearwood Lakes was number 101, GolfWorld say it narrowly missed out and there is a little piece and picture of it. I have heard plenty of good things about it from friends.
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The Players Club in the Top 200 and not Beau desert, Pennard and some of the ones already alluded to??!!! Someone must be taking a bung as this course is a waste of a farmers field!
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I expect the changes at Portsalon and Narin/Portnoo to move them up in these rankings. They both exceed Druid's Glen by a mile, imo.
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Top
200 Stockley Park, Cardigan, Seacroft, Thorndon Park
100 Brora
25 Penard. It's Joyous, a refresher.
George Pepper and others have argued that while Ireland can match the top tier (a half dozen?) in Scotland for quality there's a steep fall off thereafter. Well a quick count has them tied at 22 each in the top 100, with Scotland beating Ireland by 6 in the next 100. There are a number of impressive new courses in Ireland and more to follow.
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Adrian
Yes, I agree that listing all the contenders for the top 100 is more helpful for the avid golfer, but I am not buying that all of the top 100 are great courses or that there is anything close to 300 great courses in GB&I.
I knew Tenby wasn't selected for top 100 (wrongly imo), but to be left out of the top 200 is incomprehensible.
Having said all that
Pennard
Tenby
Huntercombe
Wallsey
Beau Desert
Kington
is an overseas trip I would be delighted to take!
Ciao
I normally agree pretty much with you but I think Tenby, Huntercombe and Kington should miss the 200. Tenby is quite short now isn't it and significantly changed? Huntercombe I think would be solid in the next 100 but I dont see it better than many in that next 100 and Kington is a new one to me (introduced by pics by you) but probably just too quirky and short and I think length does play a big part in the selection process of how the panelists considered.
When I looked at the second 100 the only ones I looked at and questioned were courses that I just had virtually no knowledge of, Courses like Tandridge, Burnham Beeches, Calcot Park, St Andrews (Jubilee), Mere suprise me that they are not there, I am sure many of the newer ones like Bovey Castle (ex Manor House) will be dissapointed not to have made the top 200, very few have played all the courses but some of the newer ones simply miss out because of their history.
Adrian
Yes, I can understand Kington not being selected. Its an unusual course that normally takes some experience to appreciate, but it has bags of character and strategy. Hell, its taken me over 10 years of steadily playing the course before I thought it was great. Seriously, I don't think people know the course at all and because of its position in the Marches it isn't likely to become well known. I can't understand how Huntercombe and Tenby can be passed over - especially Huntercombe. It is one of the best inland courses in England. It just goes to show how clubs and history hugely influence these lists. For instance, and I always go back to this one, Little Aston. Can folks tell me that Little Aston is superior to Huntercombe? Not a chance - I think they are in the same ball park of quality, but for me Huntercombe pips it. How bout Harlech? I am a big fan of the place, but there is no way it is superior to Huntercombe. Nefyn is another one. Talk about all beauty and little brains. Hillside is another that garners huge accolades and I don't understand why. It may be the most wasted site in the country. That site should have produced a great rather than middling good course.
Tenby is no pushover! Go to the back markers and at ~6300 par 69 it can cause concern for many a good player.
Another course which is certainly deserving of top 200 and close to top 100 is Whittington Heath. This place is in the same class as Delamere and New Zealand.
Ciao
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I have not checked the list but any list that includes the Player's Club (the course somewhere down towards Bristol off the M4?) cannot be taken seriously! I don't consider myself excessively judgemental re golf courses, but that course is as bad as paul nash suggests, and then quite a lot worse.
Thank you Sean for defending Huntercombe from the ignorant and the infidel! I can't improve on your efforts.
Re Queenwood - I very much doubt enough people play the course to rate it. It is the best modern course in the UK I have played, alongside Loch Lomond.
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I saw Turnberry for the first time last year and I was impressed, Troon I was dissapointed (in half the course) and Prestwick was kinda WOW!!! although it sorta needs a redo to take out the 'sillys'. Dundonald was quite nice, Barrasie very nice (never even made the 200!)
No one responded to this, but do I read this as intended: "Prestwick ... needs a redo to take out the sillys."
I assume that was meant as tongue firmly planted in the cheek, as only someone with no sense of the game would think Prestwick, with its history and importance to the development of golf design, needs, "a redo." The sillys are what make the place...
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It continues to amaze me why Turnberry gets rated so highly >:(
Food for thought - what is the one course the professionals can join as members in that area - when most private clubs won't have them. Turnberry. I think you would find that to be a factor. It also sets up very well from the tee and is fairly straightforward to play.
I would take Prestwick over it any day of the week - but that's cause I love luck and chance more than most.
Ian
I'm glad there's someone else out there who isn't over enamoured by Turnberry. I cant think of anything "outstanding" at the venue - other than it's setting....
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It continues to amaze me why Turnberry gets rated so highly >:(
Food for thought - what is the one course the professionals can join as members in that area - when most private clubs won't have them. Turnberry. I think you would find that to be a factor. It also sets up very well from the tee and is fairly straightforward to play.
I would take Prestwick over it any day of the week - but that's cause I love luck and chance more than most.
Ian
I'm glad there's someone else out there who isn't over enamoured by Turnberry. I cant think of anything "outstanding" at the venue - other than it's setting....
While I wouldn't call Turnberry an all world course, it certainly ain't no dumb blonde either. The stretch from 4-8 is very fine - especially #s 4 & 8. Plus, the 10th and 11th are very good. Top 50 in GB&I seems a reasonable ranking.
Ciao
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I've not played Turnberry but it does appear to have a few eye candy holes.
100-200 appear to fill in a few regional gaps, in my direction Crowborough Beacon which has 2 or 3 good holes always appears in the second string where as Knole Park and Wilderness two of my favourites always fail to appear.
Littlestone is surely higher than the monotonous up and down of Princes....sorry Sean it's a bore.
Generally new courses tend to jump into the 70s or 80s then fade away after a couple of editions. For me this is still the rating to watch in GB&I. Three years ago Golf Monthly had Deal at 115 or something stupid.
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I've not played Turnberry but it does appear to have a few eye candy holes.
100-200 appear to fill in a few regional gaps, in my direction Crowborough Beacon which has 2 or 3 good holes always appears in the second string where as Knole Park and Wilderness two of my favourites always fail to appear.
Littlestone is surely higher than the monotonous up and down of Princes....sorry Sean it's a bore.
Generally new courses tend to jump into the 70s or 80s then fade away after a couple of editions. For me this is still the rating to watch in GB&I. Three years ago Golf Monthly had Deal at 115 or something stupid.
Mark
Whilst Golf World has some discrepancies the rankings to me seem generally reliable.
Golf Monthly however is another matter. In 2006 they had Royal Dornoch at 51 and Cruden Bay at 106 :o
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Just going through some pics from my two days of pouring rain at Turnberry .
It has its moments you know :
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3026/2889783729_054bc3c50b_o.jpg)
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I thought Castlerock was terrific, surprised it is not in the top 100.
SM
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Adrian you said
‘Prestwick was kinda WOW!!! although it sorta needs a redo to take out the 'sillys'.
I have seen some interesting comments on this site but to say that about Prestwick is in my humble opinion just unbelievable. Forget the history, the birth place of The Open, one of the sites where the modern game of golf was born, Old Tom & Charlie Hunter. Adrian wants it scrapped as the course is in need of a redo.
Sorry Adrian, just what game do you play because we on this site play golf.
Prestwick is a great course, its’ what golf is all about, it’s not artificial pretentious or manicured. It is fun and challenging. Tell me is it just to difficult for you, were you unable to enjoy yourself, because to call it ‘silly’ is just plain ridicules IMHO. :'(
I believe you have missed the point of the game of Golf and because of that I feel very sorry for you. There is only one cure and that is to play all the courses in Scotland until you find that which is clearly missing from your golfing life. :o
I hope I never have to call one of your favourite courses ‘silly’ because I feel that I would be insulting you. But rest assured I am not insulted, just very surprised, yes very, very surprised. >:(
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Adrian you said
‘Prestwick was kinda WOW!!! although it sorta needs a redo to take out the 'sillys'.
I have seen some interesting comments on this site but to say that about Prestwick is in my humble opinion just unbelievable. Forget the history, the birth place of The Open, one of the sites where the modern game of golf was born, Old Tom & Charlie Hunter. Adrian wants it scrapped as the course is in need of a redo.
Sorry Adrian, just what game do you play because we on this site play golf.
Prestwick is a great course, its’ what golf is all about, it’s not artificial pretentious or manicured. It is fun and challenging. Tell me is it just to difficult for you, were you unable to enjoy yourself, because to call it ‘silly’ is just plain ridicules IMHO. :'(
I believe you have missed the point of the game of Golf and because of that I feel very sorry for you. There is only one cure and that is to play all the courses in Scotland until you find that which is clearly missing from your golfing life. :o
I hope I never have to call one of your favourite courses ‘silly’ because I feel that I would be insulting you. But rest assured I am not insulted, just very surprised, yes very, very surprised. >:(
Melyvyn- You have read a post twisted it around and moulded it back through your one dimensioned mind. At no stage did I say I wanted Prestwick scrapped, so the rest of your words after are total twaddle.
To clarify; I visited a number of West coast courses last year, Prestwick was WOW... that means fantastic. I am very passionate about the game and the history. "It sorta" is the key issue here I am not suggesting Prestwick is totally carved up, although the great man himself did this when he moved it from a 12 holer to the 18 and even since then there have been hole changes and plenty of new tees. I like Prestwick as it is, but the 'sillys' do stop it from being held in higher regard by more, 'possibly' I would think about losing 14 and 15, which are cramped and 15 is lets say the 'silly' as its fairway is very narrow and the green is crazy, could there be two long holes after the 10th played north up toward Troon? With 14 and 15 removed, the course frees up a lot of space, which is the key problem at Prestwick, especially at the end of the round, maybe such a change could see a return back on the big stage. Its just two new holes.
ALL open courses have evolved and changed, just because holes are new it does not need to be bad, that aside I am not sure where I would place my tick if there was a vote for such a change and I do respect its history and there is something kinda cute about 15.
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Adrian
Now that you have expressed your views in an open and honest way I can clearly understand. ::)
As for the course, well I think we will both continue to enjoy it in our own way. I certainly would not want any major changes. But then each to his own. :P
Have you read that report from a guy who recently played Askernish and enjoyed it more than Cruden Bay? The Askernish new greens have yet to settle but I think he may well be right. But it depends upon your approach to the game – as I said above, each to his own. 8)
As for ‘Total Twaddle’ – a comment although not actually unpleasant alas conveys contempt for the opinion of others. Pity, thought more highly of you than that, but don’t worry as I will not hold it against you. >:( >:( ;)