Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Mike Mosely on August 08, 2008, 10:44:45 AM
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OK I know it's only day one, but I really like what I see of this course. I like the par 4.5 eighteenth hole, I like the lines of 4 and 5. I'm not crazy about how long the par-3s are at 9 and 17. 9 looks goofy. But I'm seeing a lot of variety in the design and a really interesting piece of property.
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Why does it have to be so hard? The fairways are too narrow and the rough too high. The set up is overwhelming the architecture.
The winning score will be over par. I've been watching Cabrera, Harrington and Trevor online. Cabrera looks like he's playing really well but it's such a slog. I'm surprised because the PGA of America is usually pretty balanced in their set up.
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I find the course more beautiful than Royal Birkdale. Michigan was one hell of a state in its day.
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Why does it have to be so hard? The fairways are too narrow and the rough too high. The set up is overwhelming the architecture.
Yep, I'd love to be seeing this with things toned down just a notch. Maybe "9" on the Hard-o-meter instead of "11".
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Pretty course. Pretty clubhouse. Boring golf. Where is the gallery?
I would be interested to see how scoring would change if they widened fw's to normal widths. More people would risk shooting at pins. Given the hard as rock, highly contoured and well protected greens, some will succeed and others will pay a stiff price. As it is everyone is playing for the middle of the greens.
My guess is that average scores would be only a little lower, with more under par scores, but also more higher scores. There would be wider scoring spreads. And the golf would be a ton more interesting.
Bob
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The genious of Mike Davis is that he has been able to create interesting golf even though scoring hasn't been any lower (285 at Oakmont and 284 at Torrey Pines). The PGA is getting high scores without any of the excitement.
Geoff Shackleford commented on how small the galleries were yesterday. That's golf without Tiger.
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That's golf without Tiger.
Or in an area suffering the legacy of the US auto industry. Or both.
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Small Galleries -- two words: Michigan Economy. I grew up there, my mom still lives there and she has horror stories on how bad the governor's policies have depressed the state.
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That's golf without Tiger.
Or in an area suffering the legacy of the US auto industry. Or both.
Michigan looks worse and worse each time I go back these past ten years. The entire Detroit area is an eerie place. If you look at the big 5 (no other cities were remotely close to the size) cities in the States back in 1950 it is remarkable how Detroit has fared. It's population has nearly halved in the past 50 years. Only Philly is remotely similar in its decline and judging by my visit this past spring Philly ain't looking too good either. Of the big 5 LA is the only one with any real growth and it was mamoth. It wasn't too far doubling its population this past 50 years - incredible for a city that was already huge. Now its really the big 3 with Detroit and Philly taking a dive.
Still, OH is a terrific course which could be one of the very best if given a chance.
Ciao
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I have to say that cramping the architecture seems to be the trend at OH/S this week. I have to preface my previous comment by saying that I am not on site and I'm only throwing forward a comment from the comforts of my living room.
Don't know why the fairways have to be that narrow or the rough that deep. Kerry Haigh generally understands that allowing the players to truly play is what makes for entertaining golf and viewing.
There's more to the week so it will be interesting to see if the PGA of America (thru Haigh) make any significant adjustments.
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Personally I like the course, got to see the practice rounds Wed. It is a very "big" course for the size of land they've got. I'd definitely like to see it if the fairways were opened up a bit, though some holes it doesnt appear like theyve got the room to do so (11?)
Sad to say as a metro Detroit resident, but things are real tough around here. Awful, awful leadership. But we'll just continue to take pride in the good things we've got, OHCC is definitely one...
First post too! Hi!
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I have to say that cramping the architecture seems to be the trend at OH/S this week. I have to preface my previous comment by saying that I am not on site and I'm only throwing forward a comment from the comforts of my living room.
Don't know why the fairways have to be that narrow or the rough that deep. Kerry Haigh generally understands that allowing the players to truly play is what makes for entertaining golf and viewing.
There's more to the week so it will be interesting to see if the PGA of America (thru Haigh) make any significant adjustments.
That's an astute assessment, Matt. Nevertheless, there is some serious architecture and some serious hills. To quote McDonald's, "I'm lovin' it."
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I've been enjoying my Direct TV golf coverage-they give you one channel that follows 1 group from the first tee to 18 green with no commercials. A great way to see the course in a new perspective-if you can put up with the small talk. I read a magazine while they walk to their next shot.
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I just saw Vijay make a double on the 9th after being on the green and pin high on the hole in regulation, his last. He under-read his first putt, a right-to-left breaker, which took a sharp left turn and rolled off the green.
Vijay needed two putts to finish 9 over. If JB Holmes bogies either of the last two holes, he will finish 1-under, which I bet will be the leading score when the round is over. So he would have been within the 10-shot rule. Bummer.
Playing with Vijay, Daly birdied the hole to finish 9 over.
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Oops, never mind. 10-shot rule applies after all.
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Tim, I don't think it does. I checked the pga.com site and asked some of the other guys and they said only top 70 and ties. Check here:
http://www.pga.com/pgachampionship/2008/scoring/
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I think Jay is right about the top 70 and ties.
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OK but how are you guys liking you see of the course.
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Tiger would be eating this course up - none of his drives would end up in the thick stuff, as all of his bad drives would be wide enough to get into the "gallery rough". THAT is the real crime with this sort of course setup; if you're going to narrow the fairways, widen the roughs, don't just let the gallery come closer and only truly penalize the golfers who just miss the target.
I get the sense that Oakland Hills is one of those courses which must be much more interesting to see in person than it is to watch on TV. Winged Foot must be similar in this regard; I've never been to either course, but on TV you don't really get a sense of the contours that must make them interesting. Instead, all you get is lots of green grass and white sand; it might as well be last week at Firestone, really.
Cheers,
Darren
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Nuff of the narrow fairway motif -- how bout the folk in charge realize that golf should be entertainment -- that's what previous PGA's under Kerry Haigh have been.
This event is shaping up as a
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
It's time for more width and allow the players to play and for the shotmakers to emerge instead of the predictable ho-hum march down single file fairways.
OH/S can play much better -- see the '79 PGA and the Senior Open won by Nicklaus.
Guess the folks at OH/S prefer to have another all-star name in the likes of Andy North and Steve Jones emerge with the Wannamaker Trophy.
A pity.
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You just don't see any "brilliant" shots - the birdies I've seen have only been a result of a fortunate bounce. they are going to have to soften it up over the weekend to bring more players into the mix by giving them the ability to move up the leaderboard as opposed to just not falling down.
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I disagree....
I love the setup, IMO its exciting to watch. Phil has hit some fantastic shots today but failed to take advantage of a few good opportnities.
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1st time ever, I did not watch even 1 shot the 1st 2 days.
That would never have happened had Tiger been playing.
I do plan to watch it Saturday and Sunday.
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I do feel what everyone else is saying...that it is more boring with less birdies...that's true. I just like the course, not what they did to it for the tournament.
As rees said to me yesterday - "The day after the tournament they'll cut the rough and you'll have a lot more room out there."
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There is a lot about Oakland Hills to admire.
The greens are spectacular.
The bunkers are deep and they seem to be very well placed.
We walked around every hole on Tuesday and I was blown away.
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Brad -
I have to agree. Walking around the course today it was spectacular - the routing, the greens, the conditions. The course is draped over the property so well. Here's to a excellent finish.
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The course is draped over the property so well.
Just curious if that includes 18 when you see it in person?
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Darren,
All courses are much more interesting and valuable to experience in person; such is the nature of golf and its architecture.
I went to the practice round on wednesday, and I found the course much more more interesting than I remembered. The contours of the property are great for golf--10 and 11 exemplify this--but i wonder if it could be more with varied fairway bunkers and more opened greens.
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This might be the most boring tournament of the majors this year, at least so far.
Maybe it is the Tiger factor, I am not sure, but there doesn't seem to be any excitement among the players...with the exception of Sergio begging for every other shot to do something. I know that the 2nd round is early, but it seems to me that this is all a drudgery for the players, like they can't wait to leave, at least their body language tells me so.
I would like to see a few players below par, even -7 or -8 for a whole tournament isn't bad, is it? It is fun to see eagle and birdie opportunities, like Harrington's on 17 at the British Open (even if that was a hole set up to be extra tough).
There just has to be a balance somewhere between scoring, excitement and a true test for golfers. This business of protecting par has to go.
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I agree with John. This is like watching paint dry. This is obviously a great course but the set up makes for a boring event. If there is so much slope and undulation then the USGA did not need 5 inch rough covering the entire facility.
Where was the imagination in this set up? If the greens are raised and undulated , why not more shaved banks? Let's see bump and runs. Lets see badly shaped tee balls running down slopes into trees and bunkers rather than nestling 4 inches off the fairway - unplayable.
Go Sergio ;D
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I love the back 9 at Oakland Hills and think this PGA has a chance to to have an outcome much like the '06 Open at Winged Foot. Especially if we get some guys who haven't been there Sunday in a major.
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I walked the course on Tuesday, and I'll be out again on Sunday.
I honestly did not think that the fairways seemed too narrow at all. Yes they are narrower than they were designed, but they are generous compared to Oakmont, and what I can recall of the last several US Open venues.
I was able to cross the fairways at several descents and take a picture of the whole corridor. I was actually surprised at how wide they were.
I also did not think the rough was as tough as it has been played up.
There is an old Lions linebacker at our club here (Birmingham) who has been playing there for years and over lunch yesterday he told me if they let him set the pins, he could put any of the pro's on the green in regulation and they wouldn't break par.
I guess the thing that amazed me the most about the golf course was how big and undulating the greens are. Its dry and windy here, and those greens are going to get good and hard today.
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"All courses are much more interesting and valuable to experience in person; such is the nature of golf and its architecture. "
Brett, that's obviously true, but some courses are easier to appreciate and enjoy on TV than others. The US Open-type setup we're seeing this week, on a course with few distinguishing landmarks or features that show up well on TV, tends to cause courses like Oakland Hills, Winged Foot, Oak Hill, Olympia Fields, etc. run together in my mind unless I've seen them recently. Of other recent US Open/PGA venues, Oakmont is different; Shinnecock and Pebble are obviously different; Pinehurst is different; Whistling Straits is different; and so on.