Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Tom_Doak on August 02, 2008, 08:03:03 PM
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Since this topic was distracting from the thread on Bandon Dunes, I thought I would give it a go here.
I'm interested because I have heard both sides. I've talked to players who shot 15 strokes higher at Pacific Dunes, and I've talked to players who shot many strokes lower at Pacific Dunes. I've never figured out if it's related to handicap, or conditions, or what.
So, everyone with experience on both courses, please weigh in. Let me know which you think is the more difficult course, and please include your approximate handicap and the conditions you played in (calm, windy, very windy, rainy). And I'll try to tally it up in a few days.
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I have pretty comprehensive stats from my groups three trips out there. I'll post some details later tonight.
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I've played Pacific five times and Bandon four times. Always in the winter. I've played in sunny weather and brutally bad weather. I've played in 5-10mph winds and I've played in very strong winds. Each trip I've scored slightly better on Bandon but only by 2-5 strokes. I'm a 15 index.
Having said all that I'm not sure I know which I think is more difficult. They're just different. I approach them in completely different ways mentally.
One point which may or may not be worthy of discussion. I feel 17 and 18 coming in at Bandon give me a much better shot at par compared to Pacific. Those two holes at Pacific have hurt me just about every time.
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Our group was out there the week of the July 21st-25th and included two 4 handicaps, a 6 and a 2. As a 4 myself, I had an 80 on each course in what our caddie described as almost perfect conditions with winds of 10-20 mph. On other rounds at both I carded 84 at BD and 85 at PD while having trouble hitting greens and putting.
Our other 4 and 2 handicap played their best on Bandon with 73 and 75 respectively. The 4 shot 33 on the Bandon back nine with an eagle and three birdies. He didnt come close to par on Pacific.
I think Pacific would be more difficult on a regular basis because it is more challenging off the tee and the greens have more "character." We couldn't understand how the Black tee ratings of 71.9/129 were determined at PD. Seems much harder than that to me after three plays.
Cant' wait to get back out there though - Thanks! Hart Huffines
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I have been to the resort once, and played both Bandon and Pacific twice. My first 36 I played Bandon Dunes and went 85-79. The conditions were somewhat blustery, but far from what I understand windy conditions at Bandon can become.
My second 36 were at Pacific and I went 82-82. The day was perfect, sunny, and calm winds for most of the day until probably the final 9 holes when it started to blow a little. I played the courses in August.
I am a five handicap and I think Pacific has a few more "gotcha" holes than Bandon, more disaster lurking. I'd guess this would translate to Pacific being a more difficult course for the higher handicapper, and Bandon more difficult for the low handicapper. Based on my scores you can see I found both to be equally challenging and it's kind of a tough call for me to call one more difficult than the other. I will be interested to hear from those that have more playing experience on both courses than just my two rounds each and also thoughts from both the higher and lower handicap players.
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South Winds - 5-15 MPH
Pacific - 83 (back), 92(middle) , 82 (back)
Bandon 78 (middle), 78 (back)
8 handicap. I played better on Bandon but the big difference was around the greens. The back tees on Bandon were about 6700.
My caddie said his loops consistently have their best scores on Bandon.
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several times around each.
5-6 shots lower each time on pacific.
75 around pacific off the back to win the medal of the day.
no wind, sunny 75 degrees, sept weather each time.
it all comes down to the wind, period.
pacific is the WAY better course. pacific and trails are tied for the best. u bandon dunes is a distant distant third on all accounts.
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I've been to Bandon twice. I've got 4 rounds on Bandon and 5 on Pacific. I played them with an index of about 5.0
I'll say Pacific resists scoring more. Why? There is less room off the tee, you must be more exact in usually windy conditions. The greens are less receptive to shots coming from the rough or poor lines of play.
It seems at Bandon, you've got a lot more room off the tee, and probably more lines of play into the greens. You can spray it there and still get it around.
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South Winds - 5-15 MPH
Pacific - 83 (back), 92(middle) , 82 (back)
Bandon 78 (middle), 78 (back)
8 handicap. I played better on Bandon but the big difference was around the greens. The back tees on Bandon were about 6700.
My caddie said his loops consistently have their best scores on Bandon.
This is roughly similar to profile, and I think the reason is that I can spray it a little around Bandon, and also it is easier to get up and down. I am also prone to some blow up holes at PD. More prone, that is - I can have a blowup hole pitching in my yard.
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I've played each course about 10 times in all kinds of conditions. I'm an 8 handicap, my average at Bandon is 82, Pacific 85. I've broken 80 at Bandon several times, never done it at Pacific....and there's no doubt in my mind that Pacific is harder.
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One visit, 2 rounds on each. Pacific was significantly harder for me.
I was about an 8 at the time. Conditions were breezy and sunny. Decent scoring conditions. My major disappointment was that several fairways were lush and overwatered, to my taste.
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My group consists of one golfer in the 4-5 handicap range, and three golfers that have probably ranged from 8-14 while we were on our various trips out there. We have played both courses in relatively calm and extremely windy conditions. No rain. Always in the summer. If anything, I'd say over the course of our three trips the wind has been slightly tougher at Bandon Dunes because I recall the windiest round being there, and I recal the calmest round being at Pacific early one morning.
Overall average group score at Bandon Dunes (21 rounds): 90.29
Overall average group score at Pacific Dunes (30 rounds): 91.53
So, Pacific Dunes play slightly tougher to par (+20.53) vs. Bandon Dunes (+18.29) for our group over a reasonable sample size.
On our first trip, the two course played almost identical in average strokes. The 2nd trip out there, Bandon played 3 strokes easier. The 3rd trip out, we managed an average under 90 for both courses and Bandon played a little less than a stroke easier.
Our consolidated best ball is 4 strokes better at Bandon (59) than at Pacific (63) in fewer rounds. We've birdied every hole but 6,7,12, 16,17, and 18 at Bandon. We've put up an eagle on #9. At Pacific we have failed to birdie 1-4 and 7,8 as a group on the front nine. On the back nine, we are missing 11,13,16, and 17.
Our consolidated worst ball is 3 strokes worse at Bandon than at Pacific. At Bandon, the only hole where we have never posted a score worse than 5 is #6. We have posted 10 or worse at 5,8, and 18. At Pacific, the only hole where no one has made worse than 5 is #10. We have posted at least one score of 10 or worse at #4 and #18.
Individual results:
Golfer #1 (Lowest handicapper): Pacific (83.33) vs. Bandon (84.25.)
This includes two rounds of 79 at Bandon and one at Pacific. He has failed to break 90 once on each course. His "best ball" 18 and "worst ball" 18 is within one stroke at each course, so there isn't a difference in tendancy to birdie or blow up on a larger number of holes at one course vs. the other.
Golfer #2: Pacific (94.33) vs. Bandon (87.75)
He has never broken 90 at Pacific Dunes, and he has broken 90 3 of 4 tries at Bandon (including an 80.) His best ball is within one stroke on either course, but his worst ball is 20 strokes higher at Pacific Dunes. He has only made worse than 7 on one hole at Bandon, and he has done it on 5 different holes at Pacific.
Golfer #3 (Alan Gard): Pacific (92.67) vs. Bandon (94.57)
Alan is the only one of us that tends to be much more volatile on a hole-by-hole basis at Bandon. His best score at Pacific is 86. He is the only one in our group that hasn't broken 90 at Bandon. Despite his scoring average difference, Alan's best ball at Bandon is 3 shots better than at Pacific (despite playing fewer rounds.) He is more likely to birdie holes at Bandon, but he's also a good bet to throw up a big number somewhere along the way (#5 comes to mind - in 7 rounds he has made double bogey or worse 6 times here.)
Golfer #4 (me): Pacific (94.00) vs. Bandon (92.33)
I have never broken 90 at Pacific Dunes (despite numerous personal sob stories where I blew it due to one or two particular hole.) I've broken 90 twice at Bandon (86 is my best score), and I shot 90 on the number a third time in probably the most difficult wind conditions we played at either course. Bandon Dunes remains the only course I've ever played - EVER - where I hit both par 5s on the same side in 2 shots during the same round (#3 and #9.) I tend to make more pars at Pacific than I do at Bandon, but I mix in more birdies at Bandon and more blow-ups at Pacific Dunes.
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no question...bandon is easier......"greens and fairways.."
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I've only played both courses once each.
Both days were only about a 1 club breeze.
I was playing off an 8 handicap at the time.
I found PD more difficult than BD. For me it was more to do with shots around the greens. I found PD required more imagination around the greens & I tended to waste shots due to not chipping or pitching close enough & leaving myself longer, more difficult par saving putts.
From memory I played exactly to my handicap at BD, which I was happy with for a first time visit & shot 13 over at PD. So for me it was a 5 shot difference.
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Tom,
10.5 index, I once made birdie on the first three holes at Bandon (no wind), then shot 36 on the front nine--which I don't think I could ever hope to replicate at Pacific, wind or no. The back nine I think has all the difficulty at Bandon. On that day the wind came up and I went 36-45.
At Pacific you can make bigger numbers repetitively if you get sloppy, without ever losing a ball. The greens and bunkers are more difficult generally, and then you have holes like 6 where you can put your tee shot in decent position and still make 6 easily if the second shot is even slightly mis-played.
I think Pacific is harder to score on--but I did watch my scratch-player brother on his first time around shoot 71 from the green tees with 5 birdies.
He was troubled by #5, #14, and #17 at Bandon didn't score nearly as well at Bandon on that trip.
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Pacific plays a few shots easier than Bandon Dunes. The greens allow for more creative shots and better scoring. Last trip I shot 71/74 at PD, 75/77 at Bandon Dunes. Windy but ideal scoring conditions. 6 Handicap
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Nice scores, Cary.
I've played both Bandon and Pacific about 20 times, as I live in the Portland area. I haven't played them much lately, but will start heading down there more often when Old Macdonald is ready.
I haven't kept good stats. However, once I got to know the courses, I felt that Bandon was 2-3 shots easier, using the current setup for the green and black tees at each course. Bandon is set up around 6500-6700 yards on most play days, and could be stretched out a few hundred yards if desired.
During the recent British Open, the commentators were describing the challenge of Royal Birkdale as a puzzle to figure out, or decode. This is a reasonable way to describe my experiences at Bandon at Pacific. Once I had figured out a strategy to attack the two courses, I felt that it is easier to execute a plan of attack at Bandon, and I could reliably shoot a pretty good number there. The penalty for a poor shot at Pacific tends to be more severe, and in some instances, Pacific requires a more exacting shot.
Bandon Dunes is so large and forgiving that it becomes a good choice on very windy days. I enjoy Pacific Dunes more, but when Bandon first opened I thought it was the greatest thing ever.
Addendum: My handicap fluctuates between 0 and 4.
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Played each course 7-8 times. Best score is 74 from the tips at BD, and 80 from the greens at Pac Dunes. My worst score is 84 at BD from the tips, and my worst score is 93 from the green at Pac. Pac is definitely harder for me to score on.
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I've played both Pacific and Bandon at least 12 times and without a doubt, I believe Bandon is easier to score on for me personally. In May, I had a great day with 76 at Pacific in the morning and 74 on Bandon in the afternoon. I think for me, the main difference are the greens. In both putting and chipping, the greens at Pacific offer a sterner challenge. That and probably the freaking 4th and 8th holes. I was 2 under going into 4 and I should just put double bogey on my card every time. Same thing with 8. >:(
All in all they are both terrific courses and I love playing them. I'd say I shoot 2-4 strokes better at Bandon.
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Interesting ... just when there starts to be a consensus, Cary comes along and messes it up. Keep the comments coming, people.
It should be noted that Bandon Dunes was designed with six sets of tees and the two back sets are seldom used anymore ... so for normal play the back set is only slightly longer than Pacific Dunes, when in fact Bandon was designed to be 600 yards longer! If you were playing Bandon Dunes from 7300 yards I don't think anyone would think it was the easier of the two. And, of course, all of the approach shots were designed to be fairly forgiving because David expected them to be much longer.
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As people have said, Pacific has more card wrecking holes. I wonder if everybodys scores here are their real scores, or are the xing out on a few and using esc as they figure out their scores. It also seems like pacific often moved the tees way up on certain holes that would make a big difference. 1, for example, can be a monster in the summer from the back tees.
I can't score on either cuz I can't make any putts on those greens, especially now with the increase in poa.
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This is an interesting question. I have been to the resort twice, both times in early July, with dry weather and strong summer winds. I have played Pacific a couple of times more than Bandon. My index the first trip was about 10.5, the second about 7.5. I have made a number of birdies on Pacific, including multiple birdies in a couple of rounds. I have had more blow up holes on Pacific, however. My scoring, while not great, has been more even on Bandon. It seems to me the more contoured greens on Pacific present more opportunities to get the ball close to the hole on approach shots than at Bandon (maybe that's a matter of luck?!).
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Tom,
I shot 78 at Pacific under benign AM conditions (5 birdies), 84 the next day under extremely windy PM conditions. I shot 85 at Bandon under benign conditions and 83 under slightly tougher conditions.
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Sean's comments are closer to the real question.
Pacific has more risk / reward holes that give you the opportunity, or the perception of opportunity, to score.
However, the beauty of the design is that many can't enjoy the reward at every chance.
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Tom,
I guess I'll be the higher handicap who responds. My handicap card says I'm a 9, although that's somewhat dubious right now. I've played Bandon and Pacific about 8 times each in a variety of conditions--1-2 club wind, 3-4 club wind and downpouring rain. I've usually played the black tees in the morning and the green tees in the afternoon, except during the rain, when it was all greens.
My average scores are in the 83-85 range for Pacific and 85-87 range for Bandon. I really can't explain why because Bandon seems like it should be more forgiving. My own theory is that Pacific may force me to concentrate more on where to place the ball and that may have a positive effect on me. Despite the averages, I do believe my highest score was on Pacific.
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I've played both courses over 20 times, all conditions, and am a 2 handicap. I find Pacific harder to score on than Bandon based on how the flow fits my game. Sean's comments hit it on the head for me - Pacific has more card wrecking holes.
Depending on the wind, I feel like I can pick up shots on more stretches at Bandon (especially 16,17,18) compared to "hanging on" at Pacific - there's more trouble with the driver (even #15 Pacific).
Tom's comments are duly noted that Bandon was intended to be much longer, which of course dramatically changes Bandon.
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Wind aside, Pacific. Your bunkering requires a finer line, and the course had more elevation changes.
I played Bandon at 3:15 one afternoon, and Pacific at 7:00 the next morning. Bandon was more forgiving.
At Pacific, if you miss just a little, it can be quite a lot. 18th is a classic example. I was combined two feet from perfection with my drive and approach. Made 7.
For me, the layout at Bandon inspired straighter shots. It was all right there on most holes. Pacific, by comparison, creates more doubt, and that played into my scoring.
I do not understand the wide difference in slopes and course ratings. Bandon from the tips was fine.
At Pacific, I moved up. Maybe the guys had dyslexia.
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See above.
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I have made well over 10 trips to Bandon since it first opened in 1999, and have played PD and BD multiple times each trip in a wide variety of conditions. Our scores are generally better on PD than BD, unless we play BD from the green tees, which we agree are set too far forward for us (roughly all 6-10 handicaps, avg at least 240 off the tee). I would say that PD is easier to score on than BD, even when playing from the tips of PD agst the tips of BD. Part of it is length, part of it is that PD gives you many more options around the greens for recovery than BD.
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Last time I was there I shot one over on Pacific, making 6 on 18 in complete and total darkness hitting putter so I didn't lose my ball, and didn't break 80 at Bandon earlier the same day. I think Pacific is easier to score on because of all the par threes coming home. Nothing quite as simple for a tired pair of legs as a par three. I have also not found the bunkers at Pacific to be in play as after three rounds have only found one, fairway on four, and made par that one time. I have gone in the winter now both times and except for one early morning tee time have played in calm warm weather perfect for scoring.
Love the brag threads...the secret jewel of GCA. btw...Won the father/son at Victoria this weekend with an alternate shot score of 38 for nine holes with my 13 year old son. Golf without victory is like sex without penetration.
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Cary,
6 handicaps don't shoot 71, 74, 75, 77 to often ;). I know who not to go against if I run into you at a GCA event. :)
Those 4 scores alone would constitute 40% of an index and without knowing the rtgs/slopes exactly would likely add up to around a 1.7 index....
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For me the front 9 of Pacific has always played the hardest and the back 9 the easiest, with the two 9's at Bandon somewhere in between.
The end result is usually a lower score at the Bandon Dunes course.
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After two trips around both, I found Bandon Dunes to be longer and harder. Maybe I was playing the farther back tees that Tom was alluding to.
I played Pacific in 71 (off a scratch hdcp) in alternating wind and rain (it was so windy I had a full bore 5-iron into #18 for my third) the first time around.
I struggled to break 80 at Bandon either time. Could be the pre 7AM tee times there combined with the after affects of the fine Oregonian wines. But I found Bandon tougher by a good measure.
Courses for horses I guess.
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I always score better on Pacific than I do on Bandon. I would say 3-5 shots usually. I do not think the course is easier I just think I play it better for some reason. I think I am able to play more creative shots into the greens and I seem to keep my head into my round more for this reason. The fairways are so wide at Bandon that I seem to lull my driving to sleep and always seem to get sloppy there off the tee. There is just something about Pacific that I love playing and I guess it shows at the end of the round on the scorecard. It could be also that I have played Pacific quite a bit more than Bandon. Id say somewhere in the neighborhood of 250 times on Pacific and 75 times on Bandon. (I live close)
My low score at Pacific is 70 my best round is 73 with hickory and a ton of wind. My low score at Bandon is 73 on a calm day. I am a 1 handicap.
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And a 75 with hickories with me, Ari!
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Have there been tournaments held at both courses, with golfers of similar abilities, in similar conditions, and would they give us an idea of which course is harder to score on?
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I spent three days playing there and played each course three times. I consistently scored better at Bandon by a few strokes (despite the slope/rating difference) and I think a lot of that is due to the width of the fairways at Bandon made it easier to hit and the length of the holes were more traditional. The longest par five at Bandon is #5. Pacific has three par 4s longer than that and when you playing in the howling wind it is difficult to hit those in regulation. I also think the Bandon layout is a bit more straight forward the first time you play (not saying that is better or worse). The par 3s are more difficult at Pacific as well (#5 was the toughest for me, difficult to see from the tee exactly what best options existed) with 3 par 3s being equal to or longer than anything at Bandon. The short par 4s, like #6 at Pacific, are difficult to take advantage of due to the severity of the green site. For first timers I think Bandon sets up to the eye more traditionally and makes it easier. Over time I think Pacific offers more creativity and options that could be utilized. If they were my "home" courses I think Pacific would appeal to me more because of the variety while Bandon would compliment with a nice traditional layout.
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I dunno Tom........
......Last Sunday I played 36 holes, at Bandon in a 3 club wind, then in the afternoon at Pac, where the wind was REALLY up (bunt driver from the lower tee on #10, a knockdown 4 on #11). Green markers each time.
I am about a 10, though not playing to that this season, and shot 84/86.
My low score at Bandon is 77, and 75 at Pac the first time I played 18 there, in a morning winter calm 5 birdie fest between storms.
As much as I have played all three courses, I don't feel qualified to discuss the relative difficulties of Bandon/Pac.
I do know that for me the Trails is without a doubt the most difficult.
The uber-tight turf scares me, and the closing stretch, uphill and into the wind, is a tough way to get in with a score. For me at least.
Best,
Tom
ps....Old Mac is growing in beautifully.
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I've played each course several times in both casual play and in a four-ball tournament, each time as a plus handicap. Pacific Dunes has always been easier to score on for me, although I must say every time I have ever played Bandon Dunes it seems like the greens have been bumpy and harder on which to hole putts. The par 3's in particular are much harder at Bandon Dunes in my opinion. And there seem to be more birdie opportunities in general at Pacific Dunes. All in all I like Pacific Dunes much better than Bandon Dunes. (Not because it's easier, though--I think Bandon Trails might be the hardest course of the three, but I like it at least as much as I like Pacific Dunes.)
I found the results of the four-ball tournament I played in, during which we played rounds 3 and 4 at Pacific and Bandon Dunes on consecutive days in very similar weather conditions (we also played Pacific in round 1, and Bandon Trails in round 2)--nice, dry, ~10 mph wind. Of 16 teams in the championship division, the stroke average was 2.2 shots in relation to par lower on Pacific than on Bandon Dunes. We played with the winning team on both of those days, and they shot 61 at Pacific and 69 at Bandon Dunes. In the senior flight, the scores in relation to par were about the same on each course. In the net flight (best-ball net), scores were actually a shot lower in relation to par on Bandon Dunes than they were on Pacific Dunes. So maybe this data point supports the notion that Pacific is easier for better players, and harder for higher handicaps.
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Tom,
For me it's pretty close between the two based on about 6 rounds at each. I'd say I probably score slightly higher on average at Bandon Dunes. It seems easier to run off a string of bogies at Bandon than at Pacific, and it seems easier to make a couple birdies at Pacific, but also some "others." I'm not that long off the tee, and Bandon seems quite a bit longer to me. For some reason my short game seems better at Pacific even though the recovery shots often are harder.
My scoring range is tighter at Bandon Dunes--usually between 80-85. At Pacific, I've shot anywhere from 77 to 97 with more rounds right around 80 than 90. I've only played in winter with pretty decent conditions and winds not greater than 20. Handicap 5-6.
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Having observed my fair share of rounds on both courses, from the same yardages (black OR green tees), Bandon is definitely easier across all skill levels. For our average resort guest (I'd guess the median handicap to be 10-12) Pacific plays 3-5 shots more difficult to par. That number probably grows as the handicap goes up, meaning the slope ratings for both courses are possibly inaccurate. Bandon's might be a little high, but Pacific's is definitely low.
Pacific has too many forced carries, bunkers and elevated greens to match up with the prevailing wind to make the slope rating valid. I've asked a O.G.A. course rater if they factor prevailing weather into assessing course rating / slope and the answer was yes. To which I say, NOT ENOUGH.
Interestingly, the O.G.A.'s website lists the 20 most difficult courses in the state and that list has Bandon as #1, from the tournament tees never played (about 7,200 yards) and Pacific is not on the list.
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David:
I am a course rater for the NCGA (Northern California). We all use the same system. And yes, wind is factored in most definitely. We use the average summer wind speed and direction, as reported by course officials, and confirmed if necessary with other sources.
At a place like Bandon this does get problematic, as the days of high wind speed certainly get gusts way above the average! Then you also have the two different winds based on season....
BUT... I'd still say in the end, taking all rounds over all times, the course ratings and slopes are accurate. Oh there certainly are days when each course plays a lot tougher than those numbers would indicate... but there are also days with no wind when each would play easier.
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Tom Doak,
When Pacific Dunes first opened, what would you have expected the answer to your question to be?
Did you have a goal for how easy/difficult you wanted to make Pacific Dunes compared to its neighbor?
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Hey, when we talk about the ability to score on a course, don't we usually talk about the ability to make eagles and birdies, to go LOW?
As Kavanaugh notes, I could care less what your score was, which course has more holes where you can be aggressive, has risk/reward, gives you the opportunity to go LOW?
For me, Pacific gives more opportunity to score on making Bandon harder to score on.
... For our average resort guest (I'd guess the median handicap to be 10-12) ...
I would be shocked and amazed if the median handicap was that low. I believe the NGF says that only 20% or so US golfer score better then 90 on a regulation course with the average score being 97.
On a sampling of this website participants, I don't think the average or median handicap was that low ...
Perhaps only the good golfers go to Bandon ...
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Chris:
I didn't really think about how hard I wanted the course to be compared to Bandon -- we wanted it to be different. I consciously wanted to make Pacific shorter, to provide more chances for birdie and more chances to make a big number, and it sounds as if we succeeded on both counts.
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Hey, when we talk about the ability to score on a course, don't we usually talk about the ability to make eagles and birdies, to go LOW?
As Kavanaugh notes, I could care less what your score was, which course has more holes where you can be aggressive, has risk/reward, gives you the opportunity to go LOW?
For me, Pacific gives more opportunity to score on making Bandon harder to score on.
... For our average resort guest (I'd guess the median handicap to be 10-12) ...
I would be shocked and amazed if the median handicap was that low. I believe the NGF says that only 20% or so US golfer score better then 90 on a regulation course with the average score being 97.
On a sampling of this website participants, I don't think the average or median handicap was that low ...
Perhaps only the good golfers go to Bandon ...
What amazes me is how many freaking people on this web site "routinely" shoot their handicap or better at these two courses. If you're all using the "I call my average score my handicap" system that was debated a few months ago I could understand it. If you all have registered GHIN handicaps, I'm never playing any of you for money!!! Both of these courses, regardless of which is harder, ought to be harder than the average course for a mid-handicapper, so the percentages would tell you that most players wouldn't shoot their index here. How is it that my group is the only one that doesn't routinely break 80, let alone 90?!?