Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Carl Nichols on July 11, 2008, 02:28:58 PM
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I live in the Washington, DC metro area and have played most of the top courses. Several recent threads, including Matt Ward's top 50 in NYC, induced me to start a thread to get thoughts on a question that's bugged me for a long time -- why doesn't DC have any (or more) great courses? [Whatever one thinks of Congressional Blue, RTJ, Columbia, or Four Streams, I don't think they crack top 60 in the U.S. on any list.] It can't be topography; the sites for many of the better of the courses seem just as good as, for example, a lot of Westchester and Northern New Jersey. It can't be population; the metro area is at least top 10 in the U.S. It can't be (current) wealth; DCdoesn't have NYC or California wealth, but it's fairly affluent.
Maybe it's because DC's a transient place, or because it didn't have Golden Age wealth (I don't know if this is true -- just a guess), or maybe there's something else. Indeed, perhaps there isn't an explanation, and it's just the way things have worked out. But in light of the factors mentioned above, you'd think that there would be a few (or a few more) great courses.
Any ideas?
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Carl-
I have that same question. After growing up in North Carolina and living in New York, San Francisco and Atlanta I have been asking the question since I got here. How can a town like this not have 2-3 world class courses. Congressional and RTJ are really solid. Chevy Chase is good. Whiskey Creek is good. Add a few more that I am sure others will argue for...but after you get over say 5 courses it drops off pretty fast (in comparison to NYC, LA, Chicago, SF, hell even Columbus, Ohio)
Topography is very similar to Philly, NJ, and NYC.
Plenty of really rich folks.
I simply don't get it? I can't think of any other major city in the country (Dallas & Houston) that doesn't have a lot of world class courses.
Chip
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1. It's a MUCH harder place to grow grass than New York or Columbus, Ohio.
2. The segment of the population that can afford to join private clubs, comes and goes with the whims of the electorate.
3. It's so hot and humid in the summers that golf is just not so popular there. (You could say the same for Richmond, Raleigh, Columbia, and Charleston too if it wasn't for northern money heading that way in winter.)
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I simply don't get it? I can't think of any other major city in the country (Dallas & Houston) that doesn't have a lot of world class courses.
Chip
Oh, I can think of one. Come on down to sunny San Diego....
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Been to Seattle much? Chambers Bay is the closest great course and its in Tacoma.
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I'm gravely concerned because names of great DC/Baltimore area courses keep coming up as possible NLE candidates. Tom, is there any further word on Beechtree? I know we had some threads about that course nand Bulle Rock possibly being on the block. Has anyone heard any more news?
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Is Salt Lake a major city? No world class courses here....
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So where would you join for pure golf in the area,and in what order?
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Like mentioned I have lived in SLC and Dallas and there are some really nice courses but world class is not a word that comes to mind.
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1. It's a MUCH harder place to grow grass than New York or Columbus, Ohio.
2. The segment of the population that can afford to join private clubs, comes and goes with the whims of the electorate.
3. It's so hot and humid in the summers that golf is just not so popular there. (You could say the same for Richmond, Raleigh, Columbia, and Charleston too if it wasn't for northern money heading that way in winter.)
Tom: I'll give you 1, and maybe 3, though there are lots of golf courses here (including expensive private ones), and summer weather doesn't seem to stop places like Atlanta. But I do disagree on 2 -- a very, very small number of people come and go as a result of elections. DC certainly has less old-line/traditional wealth than other cities like Boston/NY/Philly/Chicago, but it has plenty of wealth that doesn't come and go with elections. It's certainly far wealthier than Columbus, OH.
My ultimate point, in any event, is that has always struck me as odd that a city with clubs like Congressional, Chevy Chase, Columbia, RTJ, etc., all of which are pretty expensive compared to most clubs in the U.S., doesn't have a top 50 course.
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So where would you join for pure golf in the area,and in what order?
For pure golf (i.e., the course(s) and conditioning, but not including the clubhouse/experience), here's how I'd rank the private courses I've played:
1. Congressional (Blue is either the best or very close, and having a very solid 2nd course puts Congressional over the top).
2. Four Streams
3. RTJ
4. Chevy Chase
5. Bethesda (where I belong, so take this with a grain of salt)
6. Columbia
7. Lakewood
For overall experience, I'd flip Four Streams and RTJ, and could even imagine RTJ going to #1. Congressional is a bit of a factory.
I either haven't played other courses (e.g., Woodmont, Burning Tree, others) or think they don't warrant being mentioned (e.g., Kenwood, others).
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Carl,thanks for the info.
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As a resident of the area for 50 years I agree with the premise that it is odd that we do not have as many good courses as would be expected.
Part of the reason is growth. PG Country Club was a Ross course that was sold for housing is a good example. A great old course that NLE because of housing values.
Another reason is poor decisions. Manor, a Flynn design, was "renovated" by Arthur Hills and although still a fine course it is certainly not a classic.
Congo is a great US open course....but Rees Jones as a designer does not make it a classic.
Chevy Chase, another Ross, renovated by Hills, again good bt not a classic.
The changes a Columbia are good....very good .
As for new courses. RTJ is good....especially if you like eye candy and a fancy clubhouse. Four Streams is a great track....no eye candy.
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I lived in the area for 13 years (1983-1995) and was a member of CC of Fairfax. I disagree about the topography, don't really think it's that great for golf. At least that's my recollection of Northern Virginia golf. The ridges that dominate the terrain of that area are interesting for Civil War sites but not as good for golf. If you aren't hitting tee shots into blind air over the ridges, you're playing down the valleys and it's soggy, humid and not too interesting either way.
Columbia was my favorite, Bethesda is very similar to Congressional.
Not that Northwest Florida is much better. I guess that's why my frequent flyer account gets a real workout traveling!
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Bill - I'm playing CC of Fairfax for the first time next weekend. Beth = Congo??? Billy Boy that has to be the first time I've even heard the two compared. Be you know in the mid-1960s the state consumed 14 acres of Bethesda CC for the Beltway. 4 holes were consumed and the resultant course is shoehorned into an impossibly tiny piece of real estate. Congo on the other had is quite expansive.
A follow-on to what Tom D suggests. GC architects and superintendents have forever complained that growing grass is difficult in the mid-Atlantic because it is too warm for the cold season grasses and too cold for the warm season grasses.
JC
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Is Salt Lake a major city?
Only if you live in Utah ;D
No world class courses here....
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Carl,
I'd agree with Tom Doak and add the following.
Most of the major cities in early America where driven by entepreneurial types, titans of business, whereas D.C. was the epicenter of the Federal Government, populated by managerial types.
It was the titans of business who pursued the notion of creating golf courses and finding the best architects of the time to design them.
When you examine the genesis of many of the "Golden Age" clubs, you'll find that combination.
Pine Valley, Seminole, Merion, NGLA and many other courses were created by the efforts of highly successful men and the love of a relatively new game in America.
I've always been fascinated by the history of a golf club that bears the name of the city in which it resides.
Denver CC, San Fransisco CC, Pittsburgh Field Club, Charlotte GC, Baltimore CC, etc., etc..
I believe that Tom Doak's points and my thoughts on the genesis of clubs addresses the disconnect in the DC area.
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In 1930 the population of DC was 487,000 and the population of New York was 6.9 million, Chicago 3.4 million, and Philadelphia 2.0 million. Open clubs in Virginia include Army-Navy Country Club (Ross) and Washington Golf and Country Club (Ross). In Maryland Congressional, Columbia (Travis), Burning Tree (Colt), Chevy Chase (Colt Allison) and Kenwood (Barker). In the District there were two publics in East Potomac Park and Rock Creek (I think both Flynn and may have opened shortly after 1930). So on a per capita basis there was plenty of golf. The courses just weren't all that great.
Army Navy Country Club is close to Fort Meyers and served the military leadership. Access to the other course in Virginia, Washington Golf and Country Club, was limited by Potomac river crossings. Chain Bridge was built in the 1860 and Key Bridge in 1923. So the golf development happened just over the District line in Maryland. Northwest Washington has always been the Districts wealthy quandrant. The Maryland Clubs were built on the major roads of the time River Road, Wisconsin Avenue, and Conneticut Avenue. I'm guessing that land was simply not made available in the District for private golf development.
The population of DC and especially in the outer suburbs has exploded over the last 25 years and golf development has not kept pace in either quantity or quality.
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There is or was 10 years ago a decent course on a really good piece of land where I played a few charity tournaments over a several year period.It is a private club south of the Galleria either on chain bridge and or 7.Lawyers road is nearby.Anyone know it or its current status?
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In the DC/Baltimore area Baltimore CC/Five Farms is head and shoulders above all the others as far as architecture is concerned. To me, it is certainly a top 50 classical course. It has never had the celebrity of many other Tillinghast courses but it certainly has the golfer working his way around the course using all of his clubs and recognizing the strategy involved in all of the holes. I really enjoy Four Streams although I must say that after I've played it my reaction is that it could have been even better. RTJ is a fine course but I think I read on another thread that it is wet and soft which to me means that they care more about how it looks as opposed to how it plays.
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In the DC/Baltimore area Baltimore CC/Five Farms is head and shoulders above all the others
I totally second that. Funny how Baltimore ended up with the Golden Age course and DC didn't.
I recently played Kenwood. Neat little course, great family friendly club I would love to join when I find $65k in the couch cushions...anyway...on the wall in the hallway outside the bar is a huge areal picture from 1940 (I think). The pictures shows a course just on the west side of River Road as well as the current course on the east side of River Road. Both are 18 hole layouts with what look to have very Seth Raynor like bunkers and green complexes.
I assume sometime right after WWII a developer bulldozed the western 18 and built the neighborhood called Wood Acres.
Anyone know of this NLE course?
Kenwood would be a really neat course if they took the greens and bunkers back to what that areal shows...
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Probably thinking of the Ross NLE course - Bannockburn. Probably 1/2 mile from Kenwood as the crow flies. JC
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didn't know about that one either...however this picture has a course that literally runs beside River Road. basically you could hit a golf ball from one west 18 to the east 18 over River Road.
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Chip - probably different courses then. J
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Don't want to stir up too much anticipation but I think Avenel is going to surprise many. It now has enormous character and I promise it's going to make a splash on the area golfing scene and a buzz in the media. The tee shots are to much more interesting and varied landing areas. The bunkering (penal, highly defined and Gil Hanse-like [Gil consulted]) is much more visual and problematic. The greens (irregular and much smaller) are more elevated, tougher targets and will be conditioned to near Augusta quality (cutting edge watering system programmed to deliver fertilizers, nutrients, pesticides and inhibitors 24/7). I really think they did everything they could do to maximize the quality of the site and Avenel will be much better received.
Now if they can only hold off opening the place too early.....
JC
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In 1930 the population of DC was 487,000 and the population of New York was 6.9 million, Chicago 3.4 million, and Philadelphia 2.0 million.
Great stats, Bill. I would only add that back then DC was probably even more deserted in the summer.
Surviving a summer in Chicago or NYC without air conditioning would not necessarily be fun, but I think DC would just be miserable.
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In 1930 the population of DC was 487,000 and the population of New York was 6.9 million, Chicago 3.4 million, and Philadelphia 2.0 million.
Great stats, Bill. I would only add that back then DC was probably even more deserted in the summer.
Surviving a summer in Chicago or NYC without air conditioning would not necessarily be fun, but I think DC would just be miserable.
Yes, very interesting stats. But during the same period, to take two examples, the population of Tulsa was less than 140,000, while Wichita, KS, was about 110,000--but they have Southern Hills and Prairie Dunes.
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Witchita has Prairie Dunes?? The Hutchison folks may have something to say about that!
JC
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In the 20s and 30s, the DC area held its own in quality golf. Ross's original Indian Spring was legendary; along Conn Ave was Kirkside, Chevy Chase and then Columbia; Flynn's Town and Country was about a mile away; Flynn's PGCC and Manor were high quality; Bannockburn may have been one of the most interesting given the severe topography; and in the 1920s, the US Publinx was held at East Potomac; and of course, Congressional, Burning Tree, and a more expansive Kenwood. Golfers must have thought the Potomac was a barrier. Why else would only 3 courses have been built in VA - Army-Navy, Washington G&CC, and Belle Haven? Anyway, real estate development affected many of these courses and it's arguable that what's been built since doesn't measure up in quality.
Paul,
I don't think real estate was the reason for the closure of the original PGCC. The clubhouse is still there and most of the land that held Flynn's holes is still open. A couple of Flynn's greens still can be seen. I think the changing character of the neighborhood is what did it in.
Chip
If you've seen a course that covered both sides of River Road, it was probably Kenwood. The 9 holes on the south side of River Road were built over with real estate and the 9 on the north were supplemented by a couple holes on the same property and the rest on new land across Goldsboro Rd. The current course is far more compact than the original.
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Jonathan:
Just trying to pick the closest city of more than 100,000! (Notice how I didn't go looking for Southampton's 1930 population.)
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In the DC/Baltimore area Baltimore CC/Five Farms is head and shoulders above all the others
I recently played Kenwood. Neat little course, great family friendly club I would love to join when I find $65k in the couch cushions...anyway...on the wall in the hallway outside the bar is a huge areal picture from 1940 (I think).
My Dad told me he joined Kenwood in 1968 for $1,500. I should know more about the history of Kenwood but growing up I didn't play golf so no interest in the history of the golf course. You are spot on that it's a "great family friendly club." The pool was great and I spent many winter Saturday mornings at the bowling alley. The only place I've seen duck pin bowling is at Kenwood, Columbia, and Congressional.
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Jonathan:
The new TPC at Avenel looks great. Do you have any pictures for us?
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Guys - I think Tom Doak nailed it on the head.
It's the climate. Washington is smack dab in the bad part (Southern) part of the transition zone.
"The transition zone encompasses an area roughly from Philadelphia, south to Richmond, Va. and west to St. Louis, excluding areas of high elevation. It is a region where the weather is extremely hot and humid in the summer, making it difficult to maintain consistently a quality turf which makes use of the cool season grasses (bentgrass or Kentucky bluegrass). Yet, it is too cold in the winter for the warm season grasses,
such as bermudagrass, to escape possible low temperature injury."
It's tough enough in Philly - I can't imagine how difficult the superintendant job would be in metro-DC.
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JWinick - I do not have photos of Avenel. Search their website and see what you can find. JC
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Burning Tree should get more praise from what I hear. I am not sure what grass growing difficulty has to do with architecture. Baltimore CC is a great course almost as beloved as Tobacco Road by one of its members.
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almost as beloved as Tobacco Road by one of its members.
Tiger!
LOL !!!
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JWinick - I do not have photos of Avenel. Search their website and see what you can find. JC
here's a resource:
http://www.tpcavenelupdate.com/currConditonsUpdates/currConditions_100907.php
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Looks like mostly dirt. I was out there today and Avenel is much further along than shown in those pictures. JC
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Jonathon,
I know you have written on this and seen the layout but it looks a lot like the old course and the changes pretty minor! Are they moving so much dirt and changing the bunkers that dramatically to make it seem like a new place?
Paul
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Paul - are you a Washingtonian? If you play Avenel next year when it re-opens I'd like to hear your retake on your "changes look minor" statement. My take is that it has undergone a complete wiping of the old slate. It is pretty much as profound a change as you can get while maintaining the old piece of real estate. You can make your own call.
JC
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Looks like mostly dirt. I was out there today and Avenel is much further along than shown in those pictures. JC
That's because he gave you a link to an Oct, 2007 update. Here's the latest, from a month ago:
http://www.tpcavenelupdate.com/currConditonsUpdates/golfcourseUpdate_060808.php
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Jonathan,
I have read the article you wrote on as well as some of the others and when I looked at the renovation website I guess I expected to see more. I know that it is virtually impossible to see the scale of the changes that are occurring on the ground.
I am a local and I look forward to seeing the new Avenal....ops I mean the TPC Potomac at Avenel Farm. ::)
I really hope it is good.
Paul
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Paul - send me an email golfguydz@aol.com. JC