Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Scott Macpherson on July 01, 2008, 10:33:28 AM
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There is contrasting evidence that the great man, Dr A. Mackenzie visited/designed/remodeled Heretaunga Golf Course (now known as Royal Wellington) in New Zealand. Some great books 'The Architects of Golf' do not say he did, others like Hawtree in 'Colt & Co' suggests he may have??
Does anybody know of other sources that support either claim?
Note; the RWGC site does not credit Mackenzie with doing any work on the course- of even having visited on his trip to New Zealand in 1926.
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Didn't he build Merion?
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Didn't he build Merion?
Nah, that's a local legend. ;D
Seriously, Neil Crafter can probably shed some light on this.
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"Didn't he build Merion?"
There is absolutely no evidence of that whatsoever! Nevertheless, it should certainly be considered very rude and inconsiderate of Merion to have heretofore not given him credit for at least routing Merion East. After-all some think they have found proof that there was no way super-novice Wilson and his committee of super novice-shmucks could've possibly done it, so at least H.H. Barker, C.B. Macdonald and H.J. Whigam must have. So why not Alister Mackenzie too? Matter of fact, I think Merion should give design credit to anyone who was an architect and within a mile of Ardmore in 1910 and 1911.
But you ask, what evidence do we have to prove this? That's not the point. The point is what evidence is there to prove they didn't do that! ;)
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"Didn't he build Merion?"
There is absolutely no evidence of that whatsoever! Nevertheless, it should certainly be considered very rude and inconsiderate of Merion to have heretofore not given him credit for at least routing Merion East. After-all some think they have found proof that there was no way super-novice Wilson and his committee of super novice-shmucks could've possibly done it, so at least H.H. Barker, C.B. Macdonald and H.J. Whigam must have. So why not Alister Mackenzie too? Matter of fact, I think Merion should give design credit to anyone who was an architect and within a mile of Ardmore in 1910 and 1911.
But you ask, what evidence do we have to prove this? That's not the point. The point is what evidence is there to prove they didn't do that! ;)
We should start a thread on it.
I'm going to start writing the essay.
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Thanks Jed. It would be most helpful if you'd collect all the evidence there is out there to prove why any known architect did not route or design Merion East. And I don't want some lame excuse like no factual evidence they did is evidence. I want concrete facts that prove they didn't design Merion. Anything less must be considered blatant speculation and conjecture!
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Thanks Jed. It would be most helpful if you'd collect all the evidence there is out there to prove why any known architect did not route or design Merion East. And I don't want some lame excuse like no factual evidence they did is evidence. I want concrete facts that prove they didn't design Merion.
I can't provide facts.
Just smiles.
:insert lame smilie here:
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I am kind of wondering where you Merion guys get off? I was asking a serious question (not so serious really), but I do object to it being hijacked by this ENNNNNNNDDDDDLESSSSSSS Merion stuff. (Didn't someone call truce of this weeks ago????)
And yes, in return, I promise not to hijack any of your Flynn, Macdonald .... threads. ;)
Apology accepted.
scott
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Scott, from my understanding MacKenzie didn't venture too far from Auckland, and made a fleeting visit to NZ at best. He planned Titirangi but I don't think he ever saw a completed construction of a single hole. The biography Doak et al penned on him several years ago doesn't support a visit to Wellington. Tom may post and expand on that though.
MM
P.S. The Merion joke was actually the first time I've read the name of the course and smiled in a long time. Jed's joke was not directed at you, dont worry!
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Scott
Mackenzie arrived in Auckland, New Zealand at 9.25am on January 4th 1927 on the 'Marama' from Sydney. He departed on February 1st 1927 from Auckland on the 'SS Maunganui" bound for San Francisco, via Rarotonga and Papeete. That much is certain. As for his precise movements in the nearly 4 weeks between arriving and departing we can be less than certain. But Matthew, I don't think 4 weeks could be described as 'fleeting' though.
According to Mackenzie's articles in Golf Illustrated (UK) later in 1927 he took a fortnights holiday to go trout fishing - Lake Taupo perhaps, as we know he visited Rotorua GC as he mentions the visit in Golf Illustrated. He makes no mention of whether he gave any advice at Rotorua. Perhaps the club has some record of his visit, but I've never come across any.
He writes that he was rather tired from his Australian exertions, so I think it fits that he had his 2 weeks holiday in early January, and got back to work later in January - this seems to tie in with the dates he was at Titirangi GC in Auckland, or Maungakiekie GC as it was called then. Mackenzie writes that he inspected "one or two other courses" while in Auckland. What ones they might have been I do not know.
Mackenzie was at Titirangi around January 20, according to information from the Club's archivist, to inspect the course and make his remodelling plans and report. On the 25th the club received his plans and they resolved to have Mackenzie bunker one hole before he left, and arranged for this to occur on January 27, and this took place, which hole was not recorded apparently.
John Lovell, a golf historian here in Australia, suggests that somewhere in his 4 weeks Mackenzie travelled by train to Wellington, he suggests it as January 27, but this was the same day he was rebunkering a hole at Titirangi so perhaps he left on the evening train. If he was indeed in Wellington for a few days it is possible he visited a club or two while he was there.
So, was Heretaunga one of these? I don't know and I've never seen any evidence to suggest he was. I understand, like you Scott, that the club has no evidence either. Searching the Wellington newspapers for January 1927 may be the best bet to see if there was any mention of him. I know that Doak Scott and Haddock's book lists Heretaunga as a course incorrectly attributed to Mackenzie, and that Cornish and Whitten do not include it at all. Hawtree does list it.
That is the outline of Mackenzie's time in NZ that we currently know about and is listed in the latest version of the Mackenzie timeline. There is a fair bit of conjecture in there. What is needed is a Kiwi with the time and passion to keep digging, wade through microfiche of old newspapers at the public libraries, search old golf magazines and contact the Auckland and Wellington golf clubs that were around in 1927 to see if there are any tidbits of information hidden in their archives that might enable the picture of his 4 weeks in NZ to be fleshed out a little further. By comparison, his Australian visit is much better known. Any thoughts on a candidate for this research Scott?
And its a shame that the Merionites can't keep their refuse from spilling across other decent minded threads like yours! Have they no shame?!
cheers Neil
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P.S. The Merion joke was actually the first time I've read the name of the course and smiled in a long time. Jed's joke was not directed at you, dont worry!
Seriously, Scott. phew man!
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Neil,
Thanks for the (as always) well researched and high quality reply.
I always assumed MacKenzie wasn't in NZ for that long...
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I'd forgotten about Taupo, and the course which 'ad 'oh 'oles for 'azards.
MM
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HI Neil,
Thanks for the time you put in replying to my question. I should have just emailed you directly. But at least by doing it on GCA, you have educated us all a bit.
As you know, I am based in Edinburgh, but I will be back in NZ at times. I may see if I can uncover anything else on Mackenzie. If I do, you will be the first to know.
thanks again,
s
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PS- Anyone got a copy of that Doak book on Mackenzie they want to sell me (or swap me for a signed copy of my book?) ;)
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Scott
A pleasure, but as you can see the information known is still rather sketchy and some serious investigations are long overdue I think. Hope you are able to spend some time on them on your trips back home.
cheers Neil
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Scott:
Sadly, I don't even have my own copy of the MacKenzie book anymore, it has disappeared from my office and we had already given away the few copies I had when it went out of print. Otherwise, I'd be glad to trade you.
Neil:
It was Dr. Scott's research that MacKenzie had not done anything at Heretaunga but I don't remember what his reasoning was ... I'll try to remember to look at his notes when I get back to the USA. I think Mike Clayton is consulting there now so perhaps he will chime in.
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Tom,
Thanks for contributing, and if you find anything out about Heretaunga & Mackenzie I would be delighted to hear from you.
I enjoyed a great (few hours at your new new course in East Lothian. Well done, and I hope you get to build those 3 new holes soon!!! My current favourite hole is the 7th, but all the native greens have turned out a treat.
It will be my pleasure to present you with a copy of my book next time I see you...not that I expect you will learn much new about TOC from it.
scott
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"I am kind of wondering where you Merion guys get off? I was asking a serious question (not so serious really), but I do object to it being hijacked by this"
Sorry Scott, I was just responding to a pretty humorous question from Jed with what I thought was a fairly humorous reply. Attempts at Merion humor won't happen again. :'( Well, on second thought, I don't think that's something I want to promise. ;)
Frankly, I'm as interested in all things Mackenzie as I am in Merion, and I can guarantee that I am not out to find illogical ways to sink the legend of either. With MacKenzie, however, I guess I'd have to admit I'm more interested in the things he did in my country simply because I've seen them and I've never been to Australia even though I would love to see what he did there and if I do to know more about what he did there and how. I'm particularly interested in MacKenzie's various philosophies as to if and when they dovetailed with some of Max Behr's (and Jones') philosophies. The other thing I'd like to determine better about MacKenzie is just how much of a "quick study" he really was.
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By the way, does anyone know what happened to any golf architectural career documentation in Alister Mackenzie's possession when he died rather suddenly in California in Feb 1934?
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One of the most interesting things about The Spirit of St Andrews was the fact MacKenzie made almost no reference to his work in Australia - where he did some really significant stuff - yet he wrote something about his trip to NZ where he commented on golf in NZ as well as making reference to Titirangi.
All he noted of his transforming 12 weeks in Australia was 'There is some magnificent sand dune country in Adelaide and Sydney and the golf courses in the neighbourhood of Melbourne are reminiscent of Sunningdale.'
For a great publicitest he hardly made much of his work at Royal Melbourne,Kingston Heath,Royal Adelaide or NSWGC.
He said of New Zealand that 'Golf in NZ, unlike Australia, is dead. In fact it has never been alive.Green committees there do not seem to realize the game is played for pleasure; they utilize long grass as a penal hazrd and the consequence is that golfers will not put up with the annoyance of looking for lost balls. '
He also noted he designed a course at Titirangi and ' The construction of the holes appeared to be good, judging from the photos they sent me.'
We are consulting at Wellington and there is not much MacKenzie there - certainly not in sophistication of the green and bunker construction and a big part of our recommendations was the cutting back of the rough grass that surrounded green and lined fairways - just as it did in 1927.
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Mike:
Looked at in the most logical terms one could muster why do you suppose Mackenzie never mentioned much at all about his trip out there?
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The Spirit of St.Andrews in book targeted to the American market. In essence it is a compilation or collection of articles written by MacKenzie for American golf magazines. He doesn't spend much time talking about his British courses either - the bulk of it deals with how he got his start in the design game. I don't recall any mention of Ireland. I do believe he mentioned something about removing bunkers at Royal Sydney in earlier section.
When reading the book it is helpful to know what written pre-Depression and what was written post-Depression.
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I seem to remember SOS being previewed 25 years or so ago in Golf Journal as some sort of an amazing "manuscript in the attic" find, not a compilation of previously published stuff. That being said, when I last read it (2-3 years ago) I was very much underwhelmed.
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Rich
I love the SOS, but I could see why you wouldn't like it. I think you have to be an admirer of MacKenzie to fully appreciate it.
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TE Paul,
I suspect he did not make much of it because he never saw the work on the ground.
You would have to think that if he had known how great Royal Melbourne was he would have included holes like the great 6th in his piece on ideal holes.
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Clayts
You mention that there is not much of Mackenzie on the ground at Heretaunga - does that mean there once was? Does the club have any records of a Mackenzie visit? Would the Club's archivist/historian have checked the Wellington newspapers of january 1927 for any mention of Mackenzie visiting town? His presence seemed to make the papers in Australia in 1927 when he turned up in a city and I wouldn't think it would be too much different in NZ. I'd appreciate it if you could ask the club about this when you get the chance.
I think Tom is spot on with his take on 'Spirit'. It really is a compilation, but one with Mackenzie as the compiler. There is stuff in there still from 1920 Golf Architecture which was based on his 1913 and 1914 lectures to the British Golf Greenkeepers. Certainly from an Australian perspective it is disappointing he never mentioned Alex Russell and practically nothing about his visit to Australia.
Rich
Spirit was published in 1995 - so 25 years ago would put it back to 1983. If it was announced then that the manuscript had been found I wonder why it took so long then to get it published? I had the feeling it was announced by SBP at a British Open around 94 or 95.
cheers Neil
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Was Spirit a completed manuscript? Had it gone through any rounds or edits / revisions?
That's the thing with books published after the author's death: it's hard tip know how much it represents the author's intent.
Mark
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OMG, enough with Merion. We got it guys. What's this guy's legitimate question got to do with your bickering?
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Was Spirit a completed manuscript? Had it gone through any rounds or edits / revisions?
That's the thing with books published after the author's death: it's hard tip know how much it represents the author's intent.
Mark
I agree with Neil that MacKenzie was defintiely the compiler. I have not seen the original manuscript but my impression is it was completed manuscript, with a forward written by Bobby Jones. Based upon the content about ANGC it appears it was completed just prior to his death. After he died the family contacted people who they thought might help them get it published. RTJ had a copy of the manuscript.
MacKenzie was working on a book about camouflage at the time of his death.
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OMG, enough with Merion. We got it guys. What's this guy's legitimate question got to do with your bickering?
AHAHAHAHHHAAHAHAHA
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Neil,
We never looked that hard but there was really no suggestion from anybody there that MacKenzie had done anything - perhaps other than see the course.
A significant part of our plan was to get the grassing lines right - and get away from long and often wet, green grass.
From what we saw when we began MacKenzie's comments on the game in NZ were still applicable in terms of the use of long grass.
Getting the cutting right both around the greens and alongside the fairways has been a real help.
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Clayts
Would appreciate if you can ask them to look into it a bit further if possible (assuming that this hasn't been done in the past and they turned up nothing) - not saying that there is anything to be found but Hawtree did include the course in his list in Colt & Co, so he must have got the information from somewhere I imagine.
Yes, surprising the improvements that can be achieved on a course with getting better mowing lines as you say. Some things never change!
Neil
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Tom Mac:
I have seen part of the "manuscript" for The Spirit of St. Andrews. A good bit of it is pages from his original Golf Architecture, with handwritten additions and examples written between the lines and in the margins. MacKenzie wasn't big on typing long documents!
Mark B:
I can assure you, that book was 100% MacKenzie.
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This is from the Akarana GC's (Auckland) website:
"Akarana's beginnings were in the late 1920s when a group of enthusiasts founded the club on the Winstone farm in Mount Roskill. The course has remained on the same site since the club’s formal incorporation in 1927.
There are suggestions that the great course architect of the era Dr Alister McKenzie may have run an eye over the site when he visited New Zealand and Australia in 1927 after finishing his work at Royal Melbourne and playing a part in the layout of Titirangi."
This was a new one on me, but Mackenzie did say he looked over "one or two other courses" so Akarana could have been one of those I suppose.
Scott - something else for you to follow up next time you are home!