Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Chip Gaskins on June 11, 2008, 01:35:09 PM
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Pictures and course descriptions in Forbes link: http://www.forbestraveler.com/golf/expensive-golf-clubs-story.html
25. Red Sky Ranch: $175,000
24. Preston Trail: $175,000
23. Monterey Peninsula Country Club: $175,000
22. Dallas National: $200,000
21. Whisper Rock: $220,000
20. The Golf Club Scottsdale: $250,000
19. Mayacama: $250,000
18. The Yellowstone Club: $250,000
17. Calusa Pines: $250,000
16. Desert Mountain: $270,000
15. Hillcrest Country Club: $275,000
14. The Vintage: $300,000
13. Sherwood Country Club: $300,000
12. Shady Canyon: $300,000
11. The Bridges at Rancho Santa Fe: $325,000
10. Due Process: $350,000
9. The Madison Club: $350,000; $237,500 for property owners
8. Trump National Golf Club New Jersey: $250,000-$350,000
7. Trump International Golf Club: $350,000
6. The Quarry: $400,000
5. Nanea Golf Club: $450,000
4. Liberty National: $450,000
3. The Bear's Club: $500,000
2. The Bridge: $850,000
1. Sebonack: $1 million (rumored)
A few highlights from the article:
"Our list varies by region. In the Northeast and Florida, clubs like #1 Sebonack generally adhere to the traditional model of a standalone golf club. But in Arizona and Southern California, it's unusual to find a newer golf club that isn't the centerpiece of a real estate development. One difference between the two is that the clubhouse at a real-estate centerpiece is more likely to boast additional facilities and activities. There are plenty of choices for everyone: You won't find a pool at Liberty National, in Jersey City, N.J., across New York Harbor from Manhattan's financial district, but the dining experience created by consulting chef Tom Colicchio is sure to attract the city's elite."
"But don't join one of these clubs if you’re looking for a bargain. In addition to initiation, members pay annual dues plus a monthly dining minimum ranging from $100 to $1000. Dues are usually a fixed amount that can range from around $10,000 to… well, a lot more. Reportedly, members in at least one club in Connecticut's Fairfield County pay $50,000 in annual dues, while Trump Bedminster costs $18,500. But at some equity clubs, like Dallas' Preston Trails (#24), for example, operational expenses are tallied at year-end and divided by the number of members. That can run into quite a sum for a small club devoted to pristine conditioning (nearly $2 million one year at Preston Trails)."
"How authoritative is our list? It doesn’t take in some of the ultra-private clubs, such as the nine-hole Dunes Club in New Buffalo, Mich., built by Bandon Dunes developer Mike Keiser for a membership number in the dozens. And, a number of reported fees had only one source (such as the Vineyard Golf Club on Martha’s Vineyard, reportedly at $300,000); but since they lacked secondary confirmation, we omitted these. But as far as something that might be in your backyard, it’s close to a pretty good accounting of the priciest clubs in the country."
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They did not mention Cherokee Plantation which, according to Golfweek, had a $3million initiation.
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as usual a poorly researched article
both pieces of info about my club are inaccurate.(one is flat out wrong, and the other outdated by a year)
I like the part about omitting items because they lacked "secondary confirmation"
Perhaps they counted a caddie carrying TWO bags as "secondary confirmation" ;D
I can also think of at least three clubs within 20 miles of me that would be in the top 15 that aren't listed
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A variety of publications have been publishing "lists" for many many years. Whenever these lists get into the areas of individuals' financials or private clubs, any rational person will realize that these lists should NOT be read as factual, but rather as "slightly" educated guessing.
Most of us realize that there are many people likely missing from the Forbes 400 (for example). But the people that get ranked are the people that have gotten publicity for one reason or another. Therefore, those VERY wealthy who have accumulated their wealth through a very mundane but highly successful family business can often be missing from the Forbes 400 due to they live average lives and do little to call attention to themselves
If anything these articles more than border on being gossipy. Nevertheless, I am guilty of often skimming these "richest" or "most expensive lists". I think they actually serve some minor purposes, but in the end they are primarily guilty pleasures.
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Pictures and course descriptions in Forbes link: http://www.forbestraveler.com/golf/expensive-golf-clubs-story.html
25. Red Sky Ranch: $175,000
24. Preston Trail: $175,000
23. Monterey Peninsula Country Club: $175,000
22. Dallas National: $200,000
21. Whisper Rock: $220,000
20. The Golf Club Scottsdale: $250,000
19. Mayacama: $250,000
18. The Yellowstone Club: $250,000
17. Calusa Pines: $250,000
16. Desert Mountain: $270,000
15. Hillcrest Country Club: $275,000
14. The Vintage: $300,000
13. Sherwood Country Club: $300,000
12. Shady Canyon: $300,000
11. The Bridges at Rancho Santa Fe: $325,000
10. Due Process: $350,000
9. The Madison Club: $350,000; $237,500 for property owners
8. Trump National Golf Club New Jersey: $250,000-$350,000
7. Trump International Golf Club: $350,000
6. The Quarry: $400,000
5. Nanea Golf Club: $450,000
4. Liberty National: $450,000
3. The Bear's Club: $500,000
2. The Bridge: $850,000
1. Sebonack: $1 million (rumored)
Poorly researched article:
Sherwood was 300k until July of 2007 when the price was lowered to 200k.
Hillcrest was never at 275k. Last number I heard was 160k.
The Quarry was never 400k although it did float as high as 300k about 4 years ago. For the past 9 months or so it's been around 160k. I remember being offered a membership at $100k about 2 years ago.
The GM of The Bridge was recently quoted in Golf World as saying the down stroke was $600k not 850k. Remember, this was the article about members having no dress code at the Bridge.
Some SoCal clubs left off the list were Riviera at 250k (for a NON-equity membership), Big Horn in Rancho Mirage at 250k, and Toscana at about 200k.
Also left out was a discussion of the wide range of dues. Many top Palm Springs area clubs are going well past 20k per year. Madison is @28k per year for example. Big Horn is $24k. Don't forget that due to weather you can only play maybe 8 months a year in the desert.
- Peter
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Pictures and course descriptions in Forbes link: http://www.forbestraveler.com/golf/expensive-golf-clubs-story.html
25. Red Sky Ranch: $175,000
24. Preston Trail: $175,000
23. Monterey Peninsula Country Club: $175,000
22. Dallas National: $200,000
21. Whisper Rock: $220,000
20. The Golf Club Scottsdale: $250,000
19. Mayacama: $250,000
18. The Yellowstone Club: $250,000
17. Calusa Pines: $250,000
16. Desert Mountain: $270,000
15. Hillcrest Country Club: $275,000
14. The Vintage: $300,000
13. Sherwood Country Club: $300,000
12. Shady Canyon: $300,000
11. The Bridges at Rancho Santa Fe: $325,000
10. Due Process: $350,000
9. The Madison Club: $350,000; $237,500 for property owners
8. Trump National Golf Club New Jersey: $250,000-$350,000
7. Trump International Golf Club: $350,000
6. The Quarry: $400,000
5. Nanea Golf Club: $450,000
4. Liberty National: $450,000
3. The Bear's Club: $500,000
2. The Bridge: $850,000
1. Sebonack: $1 million (rumored)
A few highlights from the article:
"Our list varies by region. In the Northeast and Florida, clubs like #1 Sebonack generally adhere to the traditional model of a standalone golf club. But in Arizona and Southern California, it's unusual to find a newer golf club that isn't the centerpiece of a real estate development. One difference between the two is that the clubhouse at a real-estate centerpiece is more likely to boast additional facilities and activities. There are plenty of choices for everyone: You won't find a pool at Liberty National, in Jersey City, N.J., across New York Harbor from Manhattan's financial district, but the dining experience created by consulting chef Tom Colicchio is sure to attract the city's elite."
"But don't join one of these clubs if you’re looking for a bargain. In addition to initiation, members pay annual dues plus a monthly dining minimum ranging from $100 to $1000. Dues are usually a fixed amount that can range from around $10,000 to… well, a lot more. Reportedly, members in at least one club in Connecticut's Fairfield County pay $50,000 in annual dues, while Trump Bedminster costs $18,500. But at some equity clubs, like Dallas' Preston Trails (#24), for example, operational expenses are tallied at year-end and divided by the number of members. That can run into quite a sum for a small club devoted to pristine conditioning (nearly $2 million one year at Preston Trails)."
"How authoritative is our list? It doesn’t take in some of the ultra-private clubs, such as the nine-hole Dunes Club in New Buffalo, Mich., built by Bandon Dunes developer Mike Keiser for a membership number in the dozens. And, a number of reported fees had only one source (such as the Vineyard Golf Club on Martha’s Vineyard, reportedly at $300,000); but since they lacked secondary confirmation, we omitted these. But as far as something that might be in your backyard, it’s close to a pretty good accounting of the priciest clubs in the country."
Rater card - priceless.
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The number on MPCC is low by $50,000.00.
The Vintage dues are closer to $30k pa.
A poorly researched article.
Bob
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Pictures and course descriptions in Forbes link: http://www.forbestraveler.com/golf/expensive-golf-clubs-story.html
25. Red Sky Ranch: $175,000
24. Preston Trail: $175,000
23. Monterey Peninsula Country Club: $175,000
22. Dallas National: $200,000
21. Whisper Rock: $220,000
20. The Golf Club Scottsdale: $250,000
19. Mayacama: $250,000
18. The Yellowstone Club: $250,000
17. Calusa Pines: $250,000
16. Desert Mountain: $270,000
15. Hillcrest Country Club: $275,000
14. The Vintage: $300,000
13. Sherwood Country Club: $300,000
12. Shady Canyon: $300,000
11. The Bridges at Rancho Santa Fe: $325,000
10. Due Process: $350,000
9. The Madison Club: $350,000; $237,500 for property owners
8. Trump National Golf Club New Jersey: $250,000-$350,000
7. Trump International Golf Club: $350,000
6. The Quarry: $400,000
5. Nanea Golf Club: $450,000
4. Liberty National: $450,000
3. The Bear's Club: $500,000
2. The Bridge: $850,000
1. Sebonack: $1 million (rumored)
Poorly researched article:
The GM of The Bridge was recently quoted in Golf World as saying the down stroke was $600k not 850k. Remember, this was the article about members having no dress code at the Bridge.
Also left out was a discussion of the wide range of dues. Many top Palm Springs area clubs are going well past 20k per year. Madison is @28k per year for example. Big Horn is $24k. Don't forget that due to weather you can only play maybe 8 months a year in the desert.
- Peter
Peter,
The information (from the article) is at least 3 years old.
Also The Bridge has no GM.
The Bridge started at the unheard of price of $500,000 in 2002 and has increased incrementally and substantially at least once a year as memberships are sold.
My issue is with the quote about guests being free.
They are not free and never have been.
It would be hard to get "secondary confirmation" on something as inaccurate as that
unless of course you never really tried
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Wow. I'm poorer than I thought. :o
As much as I love golf, I don't think I could ever rationalize spending a million bucks for the right to play one course when there are so many ways for that money to be used to benefit the less fortunate people in this world.
I realize that is an entirely different thread and I make no judgement of those who pay those fees. Certainly many members from those clubs are quite generous (and I'd certainly accept an invitation to join them if they need a playing companion). Still no matter how affluent I might become, I hope I would learn to cope with playing public courses and dedicate my good fortunes to other endeavors. Heck, I could play Pebble Beach at $500 a pop for quite some time before I hit those totals.
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Wow. I'm poorer than I thought. :o
As much as I love golf, I don't think I could ever rationalize spending a million bucks for the right to play one course when there are so many ways for that money to be used to benefit the less fortunate people in this world.
I realize that is an entirely different thread and I make no judgement of those who pay those fees. Certainly many members from those clubs are quite generous (and I'd certainly accept an invitation to join them if they need a playing companion). Still no matter how affluent I might become, I hope I would learn to cope with playing public courses and dedicate my good fortunes to other endeavors. Heck, I could play Pebble Beach at $500 a pop for quite some time before I hit those totals.
Kyle,
What is the most you would ever pay for a piece of art if you had unlimited funds?
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What about Palo Alto Hills, Los Altos CC, Sharon Heights and Pasatiempo? All of them were well over $175K not that long ago.
The title of this article should have been, "the most expensive private clubs I could find with my limited research budget"
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Kyle, when your next business venture nets you $300 million, tell me you wont be joing a few of these clubs listed..... ;)
It does seem like a poorly researched article however. There are several clubs omitted from the list that even I know about, not that I'll ever be a member of them!
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So Kyle,
You have a home in The Hamptons and a net worth of at least 75 million.(and many as much as billions)
You donate to numerous charities a large % of your income, as well as your time.
You're saying you would drive to Montauk wait 3 hours to tee off and then play a 6 hour round.
Or join an awful club and course for $100,000?
You either join one of the newer clubs with their high fees (by necessity because of real estate prices) or you quit golf.
The older clubs are full
I often hear people criticize others with high net worths for not doing enough for their fellow man with their millions---- perhaps they are- should they quit golf because joining a club costs a lot?
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Wow. I'm poorer than I thought. :o
As much as I love golf, I don't think I could ever rationalize spending a million bucks for the right to play one course when there are so many ways for that money to be used to benefit the less fortunate people in this world.
I realize that is an entirely different thread and I make no judgement of those who pay those fees. Certainly many members from those clubs are quite generous (and I'd certainly accept an invitation to join them if they need a playing companion). Still no matter how affluent I might become, I hope I would learn to cope with playing public courses and dedicate my good fortunes to other endeavors. Heck, I could play Pebble Beach at $500 a pop for quite some time before I hit those totals.
Kyle, it's everyone's decision as to where they spend their money but, on a % basis, paying $50-100K for a membership if you have $1M in assets is the same as paying $1M with $20+M in assets. I'd be the last person to pay $1M to play anywhere because I probably wouldn't feel comfortable with the membership. I have been a member of 2 clubs where the intiation fees are now over $100K (both were about half that when I joined) and it represented, in both cases, a higher percentage of total assets than the guy with $20M paying the $1M. I see nothing wrong with spending money in the places that make you feel good and golf is such an important part of my life when I am playing that it is worth the investment to me.
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Have you ever had a golf buddy who didn't have a car and you had to pick him up at his house and haul his ass around every time you played? That must be like being the only guy in your foresome with a Gulfstream. Nobody wants to take their own jet every trip.
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Have you ever had a golf buddy who didn't have a car and you had to pick him up at his house and haul his ass around every time you played? That must be like being the only guy in your foresome with a Gulfstream. Nobody wants to take their own jet every trip.
John wouldn't be saying that if he paved runways instead of highways
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We are very fortuneate for airport work to account for around 20% of our revenues. Hard to believe I could live in a county with 14,000 people and have 4 airports. Never ridden on a private jet though.
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John K: That's hard to say. certainly, having unlimited funds might change my perspective. Right now, my cap is about $200, and the piece better be one-of-a-kind at that rate.
Jeff/Dean: I know better than to say it will never happen, but in the unlikely event that I'm worth anything close to the equivalent $300 million in today's market, I'd like to think I would be content to have a nice little place in Pinehurst. Dozens of golfing options. Much better weather than Long Island.
Mike: I'm not saying it's wrong. It boils down to personal values. I love golf, particularly on great golf courses, but I try not to let that love surpass my sense of philanthropy.
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I'd like to see the super rich worry less about the poor and more about their own children and the women who helped get them there.
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The author should know that a member never discusses internal club matters like how much he paid to join or his monthly dues. Generally speaking, I find it to be quite gauche.
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I was waiting for Hamilton B. Hearst to explain that none of the clubs where he is a member need initiation fees this high to obtain the "proper type" of membership. Besides, most of the members at the clubs where he is a member can not afford these fees since their trust funds are not very liquid.
Then I realized that since the death of Huntington Hartford I have not seen any Hamilton B. Hearst postings. ;)
For any not aware of the eccentric Huntington Hartford, google for his recent obits.
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If this article is somewhat accurate, both Whisper Rock and Golf Club Scottsdale have doubled their entrance fee in the last year or so.
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Another important issue (beyond down payment and monthly dues) is how much you get back (if any) when you leave the club. Transfer fees are typically 20-40% and up.
Somebody asked about Pasatiempo. Pasatiempo is a little different than most of the clubs on this list since it allows public play during certain hours, which reduces the financial hit for members but also means that the club doesn't have the exclusivity and amenities of a club like Mayacama. And Pasatiempo is a full equity club, meaning that the buyer gets a share directly from an existing shareholder, and the seller gets to keep all the money, no transfer fees. The value might go up or down. For decades, it was actually a good investment, but with the dot com boom the price rose all the way to $300,000 for a brief time, then dropped. Shares are trading now for about $140,000. Members pay about $3600 a year for unlimited golf, no food minimums.
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Kyle,if you join a few clubs and blow money on other hobbies and pleasures,think of the number of people you help employ. I bet that money goes a lot farther than the millions the government will have confiscated from you to misuse for the most part.Take some of your extra money and start a caddie program.Now that we have solved that,pick a good infomercial,go to the seminar and invite me to your new clubs(futures access does not count as an access request.)
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Another important issue (beyond down payment and monthly dues) is how much you get back (if any) when you leave the club. Transfer fees are typically 20-40% and up.
Not something anyone will have to worry about after Nov.
I'm sure our next Presdent, Obama will add the return of Initiation fees to be a fully 100% taxable event in his good faith IRS Code revisions redistributing wealth.
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Kyle,if you join a few clubs and blow money on other hobbies and pleasures,think of the number of people you help employ. I bet that money goes a lot farther than the millions the government will have confiscated from you to misuse for the most part.Take some of your extra money and start a caddie program.Now that we have solved that,pick a good infomercial,go to the seminar and invite me to your new clubs(futures access does not count as an access request.)
Compelling arguments, but you're going to have to wait a very long time before you see me in a position that enables such pursuits. I make middle class wages and I pay a Northern California mortgage (pre-slump). >:( Thus, I blow most of my money on renting "my" residence from a bank. It is the CEOs of banking conglomerates that will be playing Sebonack and getting the credit for employing people.
In the meantime, I invite you to come to Northern California. I'll be happy to take you on a tour of the hidden gems. :D
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Mike: I'm not saying it's wrong. It boils down to personal values. I love golf, particularly on great golf courses, but I try not to let that love surpass my sense of philanthropy.
Kyle
I too think its obscene to pay the sort of money we are talking about for a golf membership. However, the world seems to turn on obscenity these days and to each is own.
I don't know why folks expect rich people to give their money away just because they are rich. Many very rich folk consider taxes a form of philanthropy and I can't say as I disagree with them.
Ciao
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Many very rich folk consider taxes a form of philanthropy and I can't say as I disagree with them.
Sean,
The difference being that the government wastes billions on needless expenditure like single mothers, wars, subsidising private health insurance etc, but philanthropy the money hopefully is targeted at worthwhile causes.
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Someone recently told me about a course called Squires Golf Club in Ambler,PA. They said it was a lot to join. Has anyone heard about this club before?
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The ironic thing about most of the comments in this thread is that just being able to have extra money to blow on golf and clubs is a huge luxury compared to 4/5th of the world population that lives in either 3rd world conditions or what we would call poverty.
In that sense we're all hypocrites to ask why someone would shell out so much money to belong to a club when an even greater body would ask why we would shell out $500 to buy a new set of sticks and then pay triple digit green fees when we play.
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Another important issue (beyond down payment and monthly dues) is how much you get back (if any) when you leave the club. Transfer fees are typically 20-40% and up.
Cary,
Do you mean that 100% of the refund goes to Uncle Sam, or that the refund is subject to a capital gains tax at the current 15% rate for the Feds and something or other for the Sate?
Currently it is the latter.
Bob
Not something anyone will have to worry about after Nov.
I'm sure our next Presdent, Obama will add the return of Initiation fees to be a fully 100% taxable event in his good faith IRS Code revisions redistributing wealth.
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Dessert Mountain number is misleading because you need to own a lot to belong and lots begain just over $200,000. So it's not really an initiation fee.
-Brian
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I'd like to see the super rich worry less about the poor and more about their own children and the women who helped get them there.
I find it strange that some present a passive plutocratic society as the American Ideal when the many generation of immigrants came to escape this system, can someone explain this to me? Society is what ‘made’ the super rich and it was their insurance policy if they didn’t succeed. A lot of people work very hard all their lives and contribute a lot to society that but have no desire to be rich.
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Another important issue (beyond down payment and monthly dues) is how much you get back (if any) when you leave the club. Transfer fees are typically 20-40% and up.
Not something anyone will have to worry about after Nov.
I'm sure our next Presdent, Obama will add the return of Initiation fees to be a fully 100% taxable event in his good faith IRS Code revisions redistributing wealth.
Cary;
I recently had a thread political. I even made it clear in the title it was political, so those who did not wish to read that kind of thing could avoid. All that thread asked was for a certain rant that had been given earlier, and proven incorrect, be answered for. BUT; that thread was nonetheless deleted by Ran or whomever else can censor here. It was not the 1st time.
Now, each time these comments are of conservative bent, I notice no reaction from the powers that be. What then? Shall I consider that only liberals are censored?
Wel-l-ll, Yeah! Duh!
My point to you is one of shame, if you are able to feel that. Since you cannot be contested for such comments as you made here, perhaps you could at least be too embarrassed to make them?
Doug
PS: I had let the censorship pass without comment, but how shall I not note the double standard? Ran?
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Doug, That's a preposterous accusation. Likely as preposterous as your thread political. The PTB barely have time to delete non architectural threads that go off the first page. To imply they seek-out views they disagree with and delete them is ludicrous.
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LOL;
Sure Adam. I've noticed how perposterous.
Adam, I am well aware that, considering the nature of this site, far more here will be conservative. I accept that my views will be 'minority opinion' here. But allowing what was said on one side and censoring any response is ill. Quite sad.
I have even for the most part tried to simply ignore the threads where it comes up. But a certain member said something so blatant that it should not have gone unopposed. And when his 'prediction' was completely refuted by the demonstratable facts, I simply offered him an opportunity to own to his error. I even made it clear that the thread was political, so those who did not wish to engage in that would simply not read it. But of course I was censored.
The fact that you called my response preposterous without even knowing the context must surely disqualify you from any objectivity in this issue. So why did you comment?
I think if Ran [or whomever else censored] can speak for themselves. It is, afterall, a private website, where censorship is a right reserved for the owner/operator. I accept that. But an explanation of the double standard is certainly in order.
Doug
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Another important issue (beyond down payment and monthly dues) is how much you get back (if any) when you leave the club. Transfer fees are typically 20-40% and up.
Not something anyone will have to worry about after Nov.
I'm sure our next Presdent, Obama will add the return of Initiation fees to be a fully 100% taxable event in his good faith IRS Code revisions redistributing wealth.
Cary;
I recently had a thread political. I even made it clear in the title it was political, so those who did not wish to read that kind of thing could avoid. All that thread asked was for a certain rant that had been given earlier, and proven incorrect, be answered for. BUT; that thread was nonetheless deleted by Ran or whomever else can censor here. It was not the 1st time.
Now, each time these comments are of conservative bent, I notice no reaction from the powers that be. What then? Shall I consider that only liberals are censored?
Wel-l-ll, Yeah! Duh!
My point to you is one of shame, if you are able to feel that. Since you cannot be contested for such comments as you made here, perhaps you could at least be too embarrassed to make them?
Doug
PS: I had let the censorship pass without comment, but how shall I not note the double standard? Ran?
Duh, a little joke and one get out of joint??????? Shame, LOL
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I too thought Cary's remark was total jest when I first read it..
But Doug, My point was the moderators do not have the time or inclination to censor anyone. Non gca threads run their course and get deleted.
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I too thought Cary's remark was total jest when I first read it..
But Doug, My point was the moderators do not have the time or inclination to censor anyone. Non gca threads run their course and get deleted.
In my case it ran it's course in a matter of a few minutes Adam. Hmmm.
Doug the censored!
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But have finish with this. Back to the topic, please.
Doug
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Instead of arguing that I'm employing those who service our community through private memberships, I'd rather play golf with them. Long live quality public golf!
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If you can't buy a game, buy a club.
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Missed my club--thank god (would have been top 10).
Experience is that those clubs that make these kinds of lists want to publisize their "price" to inflate values over what you can really get a membership for, whereas many, many others don't want to advertize their entry fee and would rather concentrate on quality of member, rather than the $s he must pay to join--
Comment from a team captain of one those clubs to our captain when our clubs were arranging a club match and were having difficulty finding an mutually agreeable date --
"You don't understand. You only have to deal with a membership of millionaries. I've got to deal with billiionaries." (not a valid comparison if the other captain wanted to compare net worths).
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Sorry Doug,
Your post sounds a little defensive. Sheez do any democrats have a sense of humor? ;D
(http://blogs.creativeloafing.com/freshloaf/files/2007/08/obama-0161.jpg)
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Most of us work very hard so we can hope to spend lots of money on really nice recreation.
Boat people will spend $20 thousand to a million dollars to buy a boat, plus significant annual expenses
Plane people will spend $100 thousand to 4 million to buy a plane, plus significant annual expenses
Ski people will spend $500 thousand for a ski cabin, plus significant annual expenses
Golf is no more or no less expensive than a lot of other pursuits.
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Wow what a thread so far...
Let me break it down...
1) We have a poorly researched article on the "most expensive" clubs which appears to be strictly based on rumor and posturing rather than fact. Most of these clubs have been spoken for and said to be wrong. Amazing.
A certain club I have worked at (and posted about) that makes the list is almost wrong on the magnitude of 6 digits to the best of my knowledge (current April this year). How funny.
2) The discussion of top private clubs and their to some "outrageous" price tags immediately causes some here to woe the rich for their lavish spending when their are so many "better" and "useful" ways to spend their money. Amazing how in this context these clubs bring up "inequality" aka "the greatest sin in America" and yet when they are discussed alone in their own threads we can just talk about how great (or in some cases not as great) the courses are.
It's so easy to spend other people's money FOR THEM isn't it? I'm sure the first thing some people said reading that list was something along the lines of "well if I had that much money I certainly wouldn't waste it on a 'ridiculous' golf membership like that. There are plenty of 'good causes' and 'poor' people that 'deserve' or should get that money instead." And yet I am curious if those people who question the decisions of the rich will immediately "redistribute" (as if it was distributed by some higher power in the first place) and send all of their next raise or any type of extra money they might receive in the future to 'poor' people and 'better causes' than their own. Or will it rather go to their kids college tuition or a mortgage or a new car for the wife or on this site more likely a trip with the boys to Bandon for themselves? And what might their answer be then? "Well thats because I earned it and its my money!" How funny it is when its your money. Did you forget the 'better causes'? But hey when it comes to money people get funny. This thread being a perfect example actually.
3) We have "found" that "conservative" joking is ok but not "liberal" posting of threads. Good to know I guess? Has nothing to do with golf architecture so who cares? I was curious why there wasn't different sections of threads under the DG but I now know why I think. It's supposed to be about constructive discussion on golf and golf architecture and nothing else. So its easy to understand why such OT threads get deleted. I also would think that OT threads that don't entice bickering and arguing get let by because they don't distract from golf talk all that much. We could all fight about politics til the cows come home forever as long as this site existed but an OT thread about the NBA finals won't even be remembered two weeks from now and we'll be onto discussing the British Open instead. I would imagine that if you desire an answer you could ask the PTB directly by pm rather than requesting one outright Doug. I certainly don't think your request is unjustified I just doubt you'll get an answer this way as it itself is taking away from GCA discussion.
Did I miss anything?
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Wow what a thread so far...
Let me break it down...
1) We have a poorly researched article on the "most expensive" clubs which appears to be strictly based on rumor and posturing rather than fact. Most of these clubs have been spoken for and said to be wrong. Amazing.
A certain club I have worked at (and posted about) that makes the list is almost wrong on the magnitude of 6 digits to the best of my knowledge (current April this year). How funny.
2) The discussion of top private clubs and their to some "outrageous" price tags immediately causes some here to woe the rich for their lavish spending when their are so many "better" and "useful" ways to spend their money. Amazing how in this context these clubs bring up "inequality" aka "the greatest sin in America" and yet when they are discussed alone in their own threads we can just talk about how great (or in some cases not as great) the courses are.
It's so easy to spend other people's money FOR THEM isn't it? I'm sure the first thing some people said reading that list was something along the lines of "well if I had that much money I certainly wouldn't waste it on a 'ridiculous' golf membership like that. There are plenty of 'good causes' and 'poor' people that 'deserve' or should get that money instead." And yet I am curious if those people who question the decisions of the rich will immediately "redistribute" (as if it was distributed by some higher power in the first place) and send all of their next raise or any type of extra money they might receive in the future to 'poor' people and 'better causes' than their own. Or will it rather go to their kids college tuition or a mortgage or a new car for the wife or on this site more likely a trip with the boys to Bandon for themselves? And what might their answer be then? "Well thats because I earned it and its my money!" How funny it is when its your money. Did you forget the 'better causes'? But hey when it comes to money people get funny. This thread being a perfect example actually.
3) We have "found" that "conservative" joking is ok but not "liberal" posting of threads. Good to know I guess? Has nothing to do with golf architecture so who cares? I was curious why there wasn't different sections of threads under the DG but I now know why I think. It's supposed to be about constructive discussion on golf and golf architecture and nothing else. So its easy to understand why such OT threads get deleted. I also would think that OT threads that don't entice bickering and arguing get let by because they don't distract from golf talk all that much. We could all fight about politics til the cows come home forever as long as this site existed but an OT thread about the NBA finals won't even be remembered two weeks from now and we'll be onto discussing the British Open instead. I would imagine that if you desire an answer you could ask the PTB directly by pm rather than requesting one outright Doug. I certainly don't think your request is unjustified I just doubt you'll get an answer this way as it itself is taking away from GCA discussion.
Did I miss anything?
Nope, not a thing. You certainly made certain assumptions that did not encompass MY view of how people should use their wealth, so I will assume you were not referring to me.
I said earlier that I would drop this, allowing whomever deleted my thread mere moments after it was put out to answer me if they will. They certainly did not need to do so.
Since once again you DO make it sound like my thread spawned from nothing but my 'liberal' rantings, I WILL reiterate this much.
1. Someone made very spiteful and contemptuous political assertions, stated as if factual.
2. I offered to 'wait and see'.
3.I waited and saw!
4. Their prediction/assertion so contemptuously given proved totally unfounded by the facts.
5. I offered [in a thread clearly titled OT: Political, so those who did not want to read such would not], I offered, as I say, an opportunity for said raver to concede that they had been mistaken.
6. I did NOT put forth any counterravings. I simply showed how that facts contradicted.
7. UNLIKE the statements which WERE spiteful, my toned response was deleted immeadiately.
8. This is not the first time. And yet, I constantly see conservative political mutterings here accepted, often with agreement from others, and apparently no response from 'the Powers the Be'.
All this being said, I am content to, once again, let this stand. This IS a private site. Those who own/control CAN censor at will. They can answer me at will too .... or not.
Doug
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Doug, If your thread was deleted immediately, before anyone had a chance to reply, the thread was nipped before it got legs and therefore it's course was short. I will not speak for the powers that be, but, I'm aware of threads in the past that caught fire that were allowed to run their course. Once it hits page 2 the moderator(s) deletes.
In your instance, I suppose we were all lucky the moderator was online and acted quickly. ;)
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Conservative or Liberal? Who cares. What we should be discussing is whether the IRS decison to disallow club deductions has lead to a situation where the truly pricey clubs can exist while the mid level and lower clubs struggle.
Maybe that is a conservative and liberal discussion that needs to be investigated. The liberals no longer want the rich to entertain clients at "The Club" so it is no longer an appropriate deduction. What has that done to the private club industry?
And how have I been sucked into this when we are in the middle of a US Open? Go KYLE STANLEY!
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Nope, not a thing. You certainly made certain assumptions that did not encompass MY view of how people should use their wealth, so I will assume you were not referring to me.
I wasn't.
I said earlier that I would drop this, allowing whomever deleted my thread mere moments after it was put out to answer me if they will. They certainly did not need to do so.
So why keep asking? They obviously don't want to answer or I expect they would.
Since once again you DO make it sound like my thread spawned from nothing but my 'liberal' rantings, I WILL reiterate this much.
1. Someone made very spiteful and contemptuous political assertions, stated as if factual.
2. I offered to 'wait and see'.
3.I waited and saw!
4. Their prediction/assertion so contemptuously given proved totally unfounded by the facts.
5. I offered [in a thread clearly titled OT: Political, so those who did not want to read such would not], I offered, as I say, an opportunity for said raver to concede that they had been mistaken.
6. I did NOT put forth any counterravings. I simply showed how that facts contradicted.
7. UNLIKE the statements which WERE spiteful, my toned response was deleted immeadiately.
8. This is not the first time. And yet, I constantly see conservative political mutterings here accepted, often with agreement from others, and apparently no response from 'the Powers the Be'.
Um why does it matter where it came from. It's unfortunate that someone (FWIW I have no idea the context of who or what) made such claims and they probably should own up. PM would work there as no one else seems to care or want this person to own up. (Again fwiw I have no idea the thread or the person)
All this being said, I am content to, once again, let this stand. This IS a private site. Those who own/control CAN censor at will. They can answer me at will too .... or not.
Doug
And there ya go, you said it yourself. Be content and lets all get back to golf and discussing the top private clubs now please, minus the political bent this time.
How about this question for you all, if you had a million bucks that you were forced to spend on a golf membership(s) where would you spend it? Would you go with 4 @ $250k? or 2 at $500k? or 1 @ $1mm?
Which of these would then be worth the price tag and which wouldn't?
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Things are relative.
Its really that simple.
Money is no exception.
I have no idea what its like to be rich.
I don't begrudge those who are.
And I'd certainly never even consider telling another adult how to spend his or her money as long it was legal.
Haves and have nots . . .
thats just part of life.
I wouldn't mind a glimpse into that lifestyle.
But I don't yearn for it.
I think its probably a lot tougher than the average middle class guy like me thinks it is.
-Ted
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I'm chuckling - this thread's direction has proved my point of why a good club member never talks about things like how much it costs to be a member. Besides being in bad taste, it just lends itself to criticism.
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My mother grew up in public housing in the depression-era. Her widowed mother was a single mom with 4 kids to feed and never enough money. It took her a quite a while to understand why I joined a golf club back in 1988. I made the mistake of telling her what it cost. But when she visited me at the club the following year, she really "got" it. I think she was surprised at how nice everybody was, how nobody was "stuck up", and how much I loved it there. This golf club was the manifestation of why I worked my way through university and worked like crazy on my job.
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How about this question for you all, if you had a million bucks that you were forced to spend on a golf membership(s) where would you spend it? Would you go with 4 @ $250k? or 2 at $500k? or 1 @ $1mm?
Which of these would then be worth the price tag and which wouldn't?
Pat;
If I somehow had $1,000,000 I imagine I would have to consider what I want yet out of golf. I am a few years from retirement, and have only played golf a few years. Having come in late, I still have not played all the great publics I would like, not nearly. THAT would be my 1st golf priority. I would not spend a significant part of it on a private club under those circumstances.
Now, carrying the fantasy a few steps further; if I had somehow lotterized[ ;)] to $100,000,000, where retirement needs outside of golf were not in doubt, then I must consider the value of belonging to some private clubs, if for no other reason, the reciprocity advantages and golf contacts for other private courses. Think they would let me into The Honors in Tennessee. That is one I have heard about since before I was playing, and it appears to be a true Dye masterpiece.
But that is all just golf.
The non-golf advantages to private membership are so far out of my experience that I cannot think of an inciteful comment to make. [Ain't that unusual? :D].
Doug
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I feel so woefully inadequate.
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Doug,
All non-architecture threads will be removed when I find the time to do so.
Political posts have no place on this web site as they simply drive the conversation sideways and add no lasting value.
Cheers,
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I saw Doug's thread, and wrote a reply. When I tried to post it, the thread had vanished.