Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Rich Goodale on May 30, 2008, 02:11:26 AM
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....was an interesting hole, to say the least. I recently found this snippent from the official North Berwick history page:
"The 15th tee close to the previous green required a cleek or iron shot which must pitch over another wall, so far and no further - and then a full drive or brassy shot to carry just over a bunker escarpment not inaptly called 'Redan'."
Note that the hole was played in reverse, first a short shot over a wall and then a full shot to the green. Also note that it was the escarpment from which the name "Redan" arose and not the green itself.
We have discussed this before, but this is the first tiome I've seen a description of the original hole in print. For further interesting anecdotes about the course, go to www.northberwick.org.uk.
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Rich -
Until what date did the 15th play that way? Darwin's book (1910) describes the "famous Redan" in terms that sound something like the current hole, though I might be mis-remembering my Darwin.
Bob
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Bob
I can't remember since I've returned the NB history books I was using to my neighbour, but it was well before 1900. If you want me to try to find out, I'll go across the street and ask.
Rich
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Rich -
Until what date did the 15th play that way? Darwin's book (1910) describes the "famous Redan" in terms that sound something like the current hole, though I might be mis-remembering my Darwin.
Bob
This is from the website that Rich refers too - http://www.northberwick.org.uk/west.html
"Famous Redan Hole
Like many of the great holes in golf, first impressions of the 192 yard, par 3 15th are deceptive, and only by playing the hole several times does it reveal it's hidden subtleties. The mounds, ridges and depressions left after the sea receded gives the West Links it's natural contours and the 'Redan' was part of that evolution. In those days the constraints of the feathery ball determined the length of each hole and the green was positioned on the nearest flat ground. Often a ridge crossing the path of play was used for the green and that is how the 'Redan' was created by nature. The green is laid out on a diagonal sloping plateau with bunkers on the face of the ridge and under the shoulder of the green, on the left and right. The 'Redan' came into play as the 6th hole in 1869 when the course was extended over a stone wall known as the March Dyke to make nine holes.
The name 'Redan' comes from the Crimean War, when the British captured a Russian held fort or in the local dialect, a redan. A serving officer John White-Melville is credited on his return as describing the 6th like the formidable fortress or redan he had encountered at Sebastopol. Conquered only after nearly a year of attrition which left over 20,000 British soldiers dead and four times as many French. The word 'Redan' is now part of the English language, and the definition given by the Oxford Dictionary is 'Fort - A work having two faces forming a salient towards the enemy.'
During the 1880s the bunkers were strengthen with railway sleepers (railroad ties) to allow the green to be enlarged, and in 1895 when the course was lengthened the 'Redan' became the 15th hole. Since then only the position of the teeing ground has been altered. The green is blind from the tee and the player has to shape the shot into the prevailing wind, allowing for the ball to finish below the flag stick. The slope of the green runs diagonally from right to left, and anything above the hole is in three putt country. The bunkers on two sides, deep enough for the player to disappear from view add to the difficulty of securing par. The wind direction plays an integral part on every hole and the 192 yards can be covered from an eight iron to a driver, depending on the conditions. "
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Thanks Paul.
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Richard the Magnificent:
Do you think it matters anymore what that hole might have been eons ago and how it played then, except as an historical curiosity?
I think the way Paul Jones just described all the chararacteristics and shot value playability is the best way to describe what a real redan hole or green is about or should be.
To date, the best I have ever seen are:
1. NGLA's #4
2. North Berwick's #15
3. Piping Rock's #3
4. The NLE "reverse" redan at the NLE Links Club in Long Island
On every one of those holes when the conditions are ideal (F&F) the deal is to play the ball enough away from the direct line to the pin to allow it to bounce and run, generally on the approach, and then filter onto the green and then down and away to the pin (it's all about what they call "weight"). If someone does not understand the design or its playablilty of this kind of ideal redan hole the tendency may be to instinctively play the ball more at the pin and then even with a well executed shot the result is down and away and gone----off the back of the green!
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Tom
Of course it is just an historical curiosity, but it's a real humdinger of one, n'est-ce pas? A bit like finding out that the 10th at Merion used to be an Alps hole!
Paul
Thanks for the other interesting quote. Please tell TEP that you didn't write that, or did you? In either case, well done.
Rich
THIS POST IS AN EMOTICON-FREE ZONE AND I HAVE APPROVED OF IT.
rfg
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Sorry, I did not write that - as stated above, I only copied and pasted the quote from North Berwick website and put the quotation marks around it to indicate that.
Paul
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Richard the Clever:
In the future please do not speak to me in French---even a word of it. Even that is too close to THOSE people for my liking!
(Another emoticon-free post)
PS:
Actually, you can mention one thing to me in French. How do you say "Ideal Maintenance Meld" in French?
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Here's an illustration of the Redan at NGLA by Franklin Booth from the May, 1909 edition of Scribner's magazine. For those who have played it, or know its history, how accurate would you say this image is? Sure looks like a fort to me !
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b203/kgmaximus/Redan.jpg)
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Kirk:
From an "artistic" perspective that one would pretty much have to be called an "interpretation" and definitely not a "representation". ;)
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That looks like #16 green at PGA West...
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Richard,
I'm just back from playing 36 holes at North Berwick and I can't relate that description to any hole that would play in reverse to the Redan green... I could see it applying to a Par-4 from the current 14th fairway perhaps... unless the wall being talked about doesn't exist any more...
How do you read it?
Thanks,
Ally
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Ally
By "reverse" I meant that it was a two shot hole which called for a pitch off the tee and then a drive to the green, or as it is often referred to, the Moe Norman Conjecture. Same location (of the green) and in the same direction. Sorry for being so confusing. :-[
Hope you enjoyed your game and my imprecision did not throw you off.
Rich
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Ahhh... Apologies for my ignorance... That makes perfect sense then...
Any idea where that tee may have been?
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I was going to post on this on a new thread, but since the thread came back up this is a good place.
When you said reverse, I also thought you meant playing the hole from somewhere toward the current 17th green.
Dougie Seaton's source for his description of the Redan is Horace C. Hutchinson's The Badminton Library: Golf. His report is of the short 18 hole course, before they got the land beyond the burn. This would have been between 1877 and 1890 (when The Badminton Library: Golf that was reprinted by the Classics of Golf was first published.}
The 14th hole played short of the sandhill which now has to be carried to reach the current 14th green. The tee (assuming their was a tee -- it isn't until 1882 the R&A requires teeing areas) would have been roughly where drives land on the current 14th and then played to the 15th green.
At least according to Hutchinson, the old North Berwick seemed to be covered with walls. A couple walls remain, but it would seem a number of stone walls were removed when the course was expanded beyond the burn.
Putting together Kerr, Blyth and Hutchinson, it looks like North Berwick would have been the equivalent of a par 59-61. But the course record before the expanding was a 72 -- the same as at St. Andrews.
Hole 1: One shotter
Hole 2: Two-shotter
Hole 3: Two shotter
Hole 4: One-shotter
Hole 5: One-shotter
Hole 6: One-shotter
Hole 7: One-shotter
Hole 8: One-shotter
Hole 9: Two-shotter?
Hole 10: One-shotter
Hole 11: One-shotter
Hole 12: Two-shotter
Hole 13: One-shotter
Hole 14: One-shotter
Hole 15: Two-shotter
Hole 16: Two-shotter
Hole 17: Two-shotter
Hole 18: One-shotter?
Hutchinson's account is fascinating. I've quoted Hutchinson saying, "Scenery is not, of course golf; but golf is a pleasanter recreation when played in the midst of pleasant scenery," without realizing he was talking about North Berwick.
Cheers,
Dan King
... and then we come to the stranger is one of the most sensational shots in golf. The high sandhills in from curtailing your horizon, you have to harden your heart to drive, as it seems, into the midst of the German Ocean; but instead, if you played on the line laid down for you, you will find that you have carried a little corner of the beach, which bays in, and are lying on the putting-green of a hole protected by sandhills from the waves, which are splashing on the other side of them.
--Horace Hutchinson (describing the old 13th hole: Perfection?, in The Badminton Library: Golf 1890)
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Dan
Wasn't the 1st once a par-6, with the tee about 200 yards behind the current one near where there now is a public putting green?
Rich
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That looks like #16 green at PGA West...
Good call, I wonder if Pete Dye considered this.
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Of course it is just an historical curiosity, but it's a real humdinger of one, n'est-ce pas? A bit like finding out that the 10th at Merion used to be an Alps hole!-RF Goodale
I don't understand why this information is a ' real humdinger'. ???
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Richard Farnsworth Goodale writes:
Wasn't the 1st once a par-6, with the tee about 200 yards behind the current one near where there now is a public putting green?
There would have been no such thing as a par-6 back in the day. I've seen nothing to support a long hole, starting near the current public putting green. It seems a little weird to me they would give up that land, but maybe they decided to do that when they built the pro shop. Since that dates from 1888, hard to imagine a really long hole to the first green prior to 1888. I could imagine some people deciding to play it as an unofficial starting point when the crowds were lite.
Also this two-shotter Redan hole would not have been the original Redan. The original Redan, the one C.B. Macdonald would have first seen, dates from 1868-1870, when the course expanded from six to nine holes. From Uncle Blyth's account, it was a one-shotter coming from the southwest. It would seem when the hole was turned into a two-shotter, when the course became an 18 hole course, the shot came from the opposite side of the green.
Cheers,
Dan King
If your heart fails you and you drive to what looks something more like terra firma, to the right, you will find yourself wedged up somewhat too firmly against the too solid masonry of the wall of the woods – for we are again passing through the ‘Shipka.’
--Horace C. Hutchinson The Badminton Library: Golf describing the 14th hole at North Berwick)
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I was looking through Horace Hutchinson's The Badminton Library: Golf and trying to make sense of the description of the holes at North Berwick and recalled this thread. As Dan mentioned above, the author of NB's official history appears to have been relying on Hutchinson's description, but as I read it he may have been slightly confused when it came to assigning hole numbers.
From the North Berwick history site:
"The 15th tee close to the previous green required a cleek or iron shot which must pitch over another wall, so far and no further - and then a full drive or brassy shot to carry just over a bunker escarpment not inaptly called 'Redan'."
Hutchinson, page 309:
"Then comes a cleek or iron shot which must pitch just over another wall, so far and no further—and then a full drive or brassy shot to carry you just over a bunker escarpment not inaptly called 'the Redan.'"
One can see that Hutchinson was the source, but Hutchinson's description does not mention the hole number. After looking at the descriptions of the rest of the holes I think the North Berwick history site may have inadvertently combined the 14th and 15th holes into a single hole. Here are Hutchinson's descriptions of the holes from pages 308-309. I've added the corresponding hole numbers in bold:
10 HOLES OUT
1st:There is the first, ' Point Garry,' high up above you, with every prospect, unless almost perfectly played, of your ball rolling down a steep place into the sea.
2nd: Then at the next hole you are most apt to find yourself by the sad sea waves, if you heel at all; or if you pull, to be under the garden wall of St. Anne's house.
3rd: Then comes a hole on a little plateau most exasperatingly difficult to stay on—
4th: after which a hole, which is just a comfortable drive, in a little triangle formed by a wall and two bunkers.
5th: Then we play a cleek shot into an angle of a wall, for our next hole,
6th: and then a full iron shot over two walls and the corner of a fir-wood.
7th: This brings us to the ' Shipka Pass' hole—a very narrow course between the wall which skirts the wood and the sandhills which line the seashore. It is only a cleek shot, but any error in line or distance is fraught with disaster.
8th: Then, another little hole—just an iron shot in the angle of the wood and a fence of a field. So that, altogether we have in succession five holes which on a calm day may be easily reached in a stroke a-piece, and we begin to forget what our driver feels like.
9th and 10th: The last two holes out are rather uninteresting, though there is a chance of getting into a quarry in one of them and into a burn in the other—and so we have finished the ten holes out and start upon the eight of the home-coming.
8 HOLES IN
11th: Not described.
12th: The second in gives a pretty little pitch for the second shot, just over a wall, with sandhills beyond,
13th: and then we come to what to the stranger is one of the most sensational shots in golf. The high sandhills in front curtailing your horizon, you have to harden your heart to drive, as it seems, into the midst of the German Ocean ; but instead, if you have played on the line laid down for you, you will find that you have carried a little corner of the beach, which bays in, and are lying on the putting-green of a hole protected by sandhills from the waves which are splashing on the other side of them. If your heart fails you and you drive to what looks something more like terra firma, to the right, you will find yourself wedged up somewhat too firmly against the too solid masonry of the wall of the wood—for we are again now passing through the ' Shipka.'
14th: Then comes a cleek or iron shot which must pitch just over another wall, so far and no further—
15th: and then a full drive 01 brassy shot to carry you just over a bunker escarpment not inaptly called 'the Redan.'
16th and 17th: Two more holes—of respectable length, these—bring us again on the height of ' Point Garry,'
18th: thence to drive off into space, gravitating in ' the season' into crowds of children and nursemaids, for the home hole beside the Club.
To me it looks as if the 14th was a pitch over a wall, then the 15th was over the bunker escarpment called the Redan. Otherwise the hole numbers don't add up. Does this make sense, or am I missing something here?
Thanks.
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David (and Dan K, et. al)
There is ample historical evidence that the Redan was played as a two-shot hole for some number of years. At that time the green for the 14th (now "Perfection", then called "Alps") was short and lft of the current one, and the tee for the 15th (Redan) was to its right. It did indeed seem to require "......a cleek or iron shot which must pitch over another wall, so far and no further - and then a full drive or brassy shot to carry just over a bunker escarpment not inaptly called 'Redan'."
In your hole by hole above it is clear that what you call the 12th is actualy today's 13th (the famous "Pit"). What you call the 13th is the 14th Perfection/Alps/Shiska, and what you call the 14th is just the tee shot for the 15h "Redan."
Rich
PS--Jim K, see above as to why I called the 2-shot Redan a "humdinger"
PPS-Dan K, you are tight that there were not par-6's in ye olden days. They were called "Bogey-6's". Mea culpa.... ;)
PPPS--don't expect any immediate replies as I will be in an internet free zone from the next two days.
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I thought you may be interested in a couple of old reports on North Berwick Golf Course.
First is from February 1877 and is part of a report about the current extension from 9 to 18 including what was done between the existing Redan & Gate Holes.
(http://i346.photobucket.com/albums/p421/Melvyn_Hunter/877Extensionto18HolesTheNorthBerwic.jpg)
(http://i346.photobucket.com/albums/p421/Melvyn_Hunter/877Extensionto18HolesTheNorthBer-1.jpg)(http://i346.photobucket.com/albums/p421/Melvyn_Hunter/877Extensionto18HolesTheNorthBer-2.jpg)
(http://i346.photobucket.com/albums/p421/Melvyn_Hunter/877Extensionto18HolesTheNorthBer-3.jpg)
The Second is from November 1906 on the Alternations on the North Berwick Golf Course.
(http://i346.photobucket.com/albums/p421/Melvyn_Hunter/TheScotsmanArchives13111906Northber.jpg)
Hope it is of interest.
Melvyn
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Is there any reason why NB wasn't used for The Open Championship after these changes in 1877? The event was still held at the Musselburgh Links in 1877,80,83,86,89 and then Muirfield first hosted in 1892. After the resumption in 1872 there seemed to be a 3 course rota of Prestwick, TOC and Musselburgh. Surely NB would have been a strong course then Musselburgh after these changes, but I presume the politics would have meant that the HCEG still wanted to hold the event at their home course?
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David (and Dan K, et. al)
There is ample historical evidence that the Redan was played as a two-shot hole for some number of years.
Aside from the history you site above, what evidence is their that the hole was playes as a two-shot hole for some number of years? What years?
At that time the green for the 14th (now "Perfection", then called "Alps") was short and lft of the current one, and the tee for the 15th (Redan) was to its right. It did indeed seem to require "......a cleek or iron shot which must pitch over another wall, so far and no further - and then a full drive or brassy shot to carry just over a bunker escarpment not inaptly called 'Redan'."
In your hole by hole above it is clear that what you call the 12th is actualy today's 13th (the famous "Pit"). What you call the 13th is the 14th Perfection/Alps/Shiska, and what you call the 14th is just the tee shot for the 15h "Redan."
Then Hutchinson had it wrong, because he wrote that there were 10 holes out and 8 holes in, and he definitely refers to what I call the 12th the "second hole in."
Also, It looks to me like early on what you call the "Perfection/Alps/Shiska" used to be two holes (the 13th and 14th) not one. See Hutchinson's description the report posted by Melvyn below, where he describes the 13th as a one shot hole if played properly.
Also, see the report Melvyn posted below. My understanding is that the boundary wall of the old course was not far behind the Redan tee. escribing the new section of the course, it again describes this narrow portion of the course as "two holes" and notes the second hole was a pitch to the home side of a wall.
Of the return journey through the mountainous country of the bents, which is now regained, all that need be said is that this comparatively narrow course has been so well manipulated that outgoing and incoming parties never need embarrass one another, and that rough as is the country off the course, balls that are deserving will ever lie in "safety." With two holes in this part of the links, the last pitched on an exceptionally fine putting green on the "home" side of the boundary wall of the old course, the play over the new ground finishes, and beginning with the "Redan" hole, the hitherto well-worn track is resumed.
From this report it seems that the "boundary wall of the old course is the one just west of the tee for the "Redan" and the 14th green must have been just over that wall.
As far as I can tell from this report, the IN portion of this course was:
11th: Similar distance to 10th.
12th: Two shot hole which required tee shot over the over the gap (or pit) of the quarry.
13th: First of two holes back through the narrow mountainous portion of the course.
14th: Second of two holes back through the narrow mountainous portion of the course, requiring a pitch to a green on the home side of the boundary wall.
15th-18th: Same final three holes, starting with the Redan (formerly the 6th.) The tee for the Redan was on the home (east) side of the boundary wall and therefor must have been a one shot hole.
Look, I realize that you guys know this place and I don't. But, based on the old accounts, if the Redan was a two-shot hole as described by Rich, then the numbers just do not add up. What other evidence is there that the Redan was a two shot hole?
Also, in the description quoted by Rich, the second shot was "either a full drive or a brassie shot." I've never seen reference to a "full drive" for a second shot before. Normally this means a driver off the tee. A full drive off of the ground on an approach? In my experience, those old drivers were not made for driver off the deck.
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Melvyn, thanks very much for posting those reports. Great stuff.
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Still trying to piece together how the course evolved. Melvyn, those reports (particularly the first one) are very helpful.
According to the NB website, in 1968 the golf course was expanded "beyond the March Dike to the west" and three holes were added while one of the original seven holes "was dispensed with" thus giving them nine holes. Still trying to piece together how the course evolved. Melvyn, those reports (particularly the first one) are very helpful.
According to the NB website, in 1968 the golf course was expanded "beyond the March Dike to the west" and three holes were added while one of the original seven holes "was dispensed with" thus giving them nine holes. One of the three added holes was the Redan.
The eastern border of the land added to the course in 1968 "March Dyke" which is described by Seaton as "a stone wall known as March Dyke." Later in the report on the 1877 changes there is referenced to a rock boundary wall marking the western edge of the old course, so presumably this is the rock wall that runs West of the current 14th and East of the tee for the Redan.
So presumably the land added in March 1868 was something like the area bordered by the red line. [This seems an awful small area for three holes even then, and the area to the east of march dike seems an awful big area for six or seven holes then, so I wonder about whether March Dyke wasn't the waterway visible to east of the red line, but have nothing solid to base this on. Is the rock wall really known as March Dyke?]
So in 1868 the Redan had to have been a one shot hole. Presuming the green was in the same location (I've never heard of the green being moved) there was not room for a two shot hole.
Then in 1877 the course was expanded again, this time to the Eli Burn, and an additional 9 holes (5 out, 4 in) were put in this area. Obviously, they had to be pretty short holes.
From the descriptions I have seen, the green locations must have been something like the photos below. My level of confidence that this is accurate is pretty low, especially about No. 6 which is described as playing West, but seems like it must have played southwest to me. I am curious as to what if anything I have wrong.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/North-Berwick-Additions-1.jpg?t=1255988700)
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Rich,
What do you think of the report posted by Melvyn. Doesn't it sound like a short hole comes after what you are calling Perfection, and that it plays over the wall to the redan side, before the Redan?
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Here is the timeline I developed the time we talked about North Berwick two years ago Sunday. It fits nicely in with the articles Melvyn posted:
I think what we need is a timeline of The Redan, The teeing area, the course itself and C.B. Macdonald. Part of the problem seems to be we don't have enough surviving information about the nine hole course that existed when Macdonald first came to North Berwick. It seems highly unlikely the Redan ever played anywhere near 266 yards, as almost everything written about it through the various configurations calls it a one-shot hole. It isn't clear if the 266 is an exaggeration or a typo.
1790 First record of golf played on the West Links.
1832 North Berwick Golf Club founded. Around this time a six hole course was laid out only going as far west as the March Dyke (close to the western points of today's third and 16th holes.) The North Berwick Golf Club agree to play by the St. Andrews Rules (except for a special rules for removing stones within the Quarry.)
1858 R&A rule: Tee off between six and eight club lengths of previous hole.
1868 or 1870 (conflicting dates) North Berwick expanded from seven to nine holes. The Gasworks hole, then the short sixth hole was eliminated and probably the Redan was added as the sixth hole. According to an eye-witness account by Mr. Edward L.I. Blyth, the new holes to make the course nine holes were three new holes south of the existing holes. Perfection would have been the fourth hole, the fifth hole: a short hole to the southwest corner (where the fourth hole on the Ladies course will later be) and the Redan. So the Redan was a short hole from the fifth hole (that no longer exists) to the Redan giving the shot to the green more from the southwest than the current shot from the northwest.
1872 C.B. Macdonald plays golf on the nine hole course at North Berwick.
1875 R&A rules allow Conservators to build special teeing grounds. Otherwise, players required to tee off within eight to twelve club lengths from previous hole. It is unclear if a teeing ground for Redan was built then or closer to 1882.
1877 North Berwick expanded from nine holes to 18 holes, to Eli Burn. The Redan would have now been the 15th hole, but it is unclear where the 14th hole (Alps/Perfection or the former fifth hole?) was then so it is unclear how far the shot was to the Redan hole, or if there was a teeing ground.
1882 R&A rules changed, with all teeing ground now marked with markers -- no longer within a specific distance of previous hole.
1895 North Berwick expanded similar to the current configuration. The distance for the Redan is listed as 266 yards, but that seems to be an exaggeration by close to 100 yards. In a pro tournament there shortly after opening the expanded course, half of the scores to The Redan for the top finishers were 3s. Ben Sayers later that fall sets the course record 75, making a two on the 15th hole.
1899 Arthur James Balfour becomes captain of the North Berwick Golf Club, giving the West Links added fame.
1901 London Golf Illustrated publishes "Best Hole Discussion" listing the Redan as the second best one-shoter in Great Britain.
1902 C.B. Macdonald returns to Great Britain to "gather material, ventilating my original idea with various old golfing friends."
1906 C.B. Macdonald makes another trip to Europe, four months, returning with surveyors' maps "of the most famous holes: the Alps, Redan, Eden, and the Road Hole."
1908 The National Golf Links of America incorporated.
for more, check out the thread from two years ago:
Was CBM's the first "Redan?" (http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,31636.70/)
Cheers,
Dan King
Of course I'll give you $1,000. The golf that you have taught me has saved me that much a year in doctors' bills, and I am perfectly confident it will add years to my life."
--Robert T. Lincoln to C.B. Macdonald with a $1,000 subscription for the National golf Links of America.
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Oh yes, I remember that thread where Rich more or less states that Hutch got it wrong with the Redan. Personally, I think the hole was quickly changed after 1895 because I don't believe for a second that Hutch got it wrong in his 1897(?) British Golf Links.
Ciao
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David, Sean, and all other Redan junkies
Whatever "evidence" I have is detailed in the thread referenced below:
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,31636.0/
Look particularly at post #102 where Brian Izatt kindly posts my scan of the NB Golf Club history book, which clearly shows the Redan being designed as a par-4 for at least some part of the late 19th century. On that thread (as on this one) I was only trying to raise questions, and not answer them. To my knowledge, nobody has yet squared the circle that the available information seems to have put us amateur historians/CBM lovers in!
Rich
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Thanks Rich,
I took a look at that and at the descriptions and diagram from The Golf Book of East Lothian, and I don't think the hole ever played 266 yards. GBEL establishes the 266 yard figure, but also notes that the Redan and the final three holes have not been changed. As Brian noted, many of the yardages appear to be well off. I suspect that they may have been still been measuring from green to green instead of tee to green, even though tees had been built. Otherwise all the measures are substantially off.
(Also, as to the website, it relies on a Hutchinson description of the course as changed in 1877, but the hole is listed as 210 in 1877.
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If the Redan ever played as a two-shotter, it is highly unlikely it would have played that way during the periods C.B. MacDonald came to North Berwick. He first played the course in 1872, when it was a nine hole course, and returned in 1902 and 1906, after the course had expanded to its current configuration.
Cheers,
Dan King
So many people preach equity in golf. Nothing is so foreign to the truth. Does any human being receive what he conceives as equity in his life? He has got to take the bitter with the sweet, and as he forges through all the intricacies and inequalities which life presents, he proves his metal. In golf the cardinal rules are arbitrary and not founded on eternal justice. Equity has nothing to do with the game itself. If founded on eternal justice the game would be deadly dull to watch and play.
--Charles Blair Macdonald
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I found this in HG Hutchinson's Famous Golf Links (1891):
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If the Redan ever played as a two-shotter, it is highly unlikely it would have played that way during the periods C.B. MacDonald came to North Berwick. He first played the course in 1872, when it was a nine hole course, and returned in 1902 and 1906, after the course had expanded to its current configuration.
Cheers,
Dan King
So many people preach equity in golf. Nothing is so foreign to the truth. Does any human being receive what he conceives as equity in his life? He has got to take the bitter with the sweet, and as he forges through all the intricacies and inequalities which life presents, he proves his metal. In golf the cardinal rules are arbitrary and not founded on eternal justice. Equity has nothing to do with the game itself. If founded on eternal justice the game would be deadly dull to watch and play.
--Charles Blair Macdonald
I agree, Dan--not impossible, but highly unlikely.
All the best
Rich
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I found this in HG Hutchinson's Famous Golf Links (1891):
Thanks for that, Tom. It puts some meat onto the stick diagrams that Bryan posted for me on the other thread. That earlier posting confirms that the Redan was 210 yards in 1891, but also that it had been lengthened to 266 after Perfection was changed from two short holes into one long one (with a new green) in 1895.
You post also confirms that the 16th (Gate) only had one plateau in 1891 rather than the two which it has today, as well as describing how 17 would have played as a 540 yard 3-shotter with a 3rd played to the green shared with the 1st. Good find.
Rich
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Rich, I think if you take another look at that information you will see that the The Golf Book of East Lothian isn't entirely clear on the issue. The hole wasn't 266 yards before 1895, and the The Golf Book of East Lothian notes that it was unchanged.
And again, the yardages from the The Golf Book of East Lothian appear to be way off, but fit well if one measures from green to green, as opposed to tee to green. So while the total length all the way around the course was over 6000 yards, but the actual length of the golf (tee to green) was something less than that.
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I do think Rich is right that the Redan played as a two-shotter ever so briefly - maybe as little as one year. It may have been a trial or a not well thought out result of the many changes taking place on the links at the time. But the hole was certainly a one shotter and for good by 1897.
Ciao
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I do think Rich is right that the Redan played as a two-shotter ever so briefly - maybe as little as one year. It may have been a trial or a not well thought out result of the many changes taking place on the links at the time. But the hole was certainly a one shotter and for good by 1897.
Ciao
Sean, that doesn't leave much time for it to have been a two shotter, given that it was considered a one shotter between 1877 and the changes in 1895. Is their any other indication besides the yardage listing in the Golf Book of East Lothian? (The diagram only shows that it played over the wall, but it could have at 210 yards.) Because those yardages are way off, and seem to work better green to green.
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Sean Arble writes:
I do think Rich is right that the Redan played as a two-shotter ever so briefly - maybe as little as one year. It may have been a trial or a not well thought out result of the many changes taking place on the links at the time. But the hole was certainly a one shotter and for good by 1897.
When?
When the course reopened in 1895 they had a tournament with many of U.K.'s top golfers there and the average score for the top finishers was 3. Would they have played the professional tournament from a more forward tee for some reason?
Cheers,
Dan King
The Redan at North Berwick is another fine hole which has been copied almost as often as the Eden at St. Andrews. The original hole can hardly be considered perfect, as it is too blind and there are too many bunkers which have no meaning, but the ideas embodied in the hole are excellent, and these ideas give an architect great opportunities of making interesting holes.
--Alister MacKenzie
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Well, we have rich's account that the hole played as funky two-shotter and it does make sense to place tees near greens.
Dan - I think Redan was a one-shotter for the pros tourney (didn't we establish that a few years back?), but the hole is probably shorter now - essentially sharing a tee on the Redan side of the wall with #4. However, my memory of the pro tourney was the hole avergaed well over 3, but I could be wrong. Somebody posted an account a few years back of the tourney which gave us some idea of how Redan played.
Ciao
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Sean,
I have met Rich a few times, and while he seemed almost ancient, I don't think he is quite old enough to provide a first-hand account of how the course played in 1895. He was at most a child then.
I agree that it would have made sense for them to have put the tee near the green. But this was after the rules change and so this was no longer a requirement. So it is possible that the rule change may have opened the door to them to move the 14th green without messing much with the Redan, which was already considered one of the best short holes anywhere. [As an aside, from the description of the new greensite on the 14th in the second report posted by Melvyn, I am not sure that the green was in the exact same location then as now.]
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From the same report, I found the description of moving the 4th tee interesting. The tee was moved to the location of the old ironically named "Perfection" hole (when it was a pitch over the wall between 1877 and about 1895.) Was the old Perfection green the current site of the 4th and 15th tees, or was it south of that point? If it was south of the current tee near where the wall jutted more west then the Redan could have measured 210 yards but still played from East of the the wall. (I don't think it could have in it's current location, but it is described as playing from east of the wall but was supposedly a one shot hole of 210 yards long.) If so then the Redan would have played almost straight on. To speculate further, this would explain Macdonald's description of "twist" in the creation of the great Redan hole. According to Macdonald the greenkeeper provided the key "twist" by placing the tee at an angle to the green.
[Another sidenote about the 4th. It seems some are assuming the Redan must have been longer because what became the 4th crossed it, but I think the hole must have played across in front of or maybe over the current tee, based on the location of the previous green. Also, when the course was nine holes, this hole must have played to the teeing ground of the Redan (wherever that was) because they teed from the green. So either this hole was very, very short or the Redan tee was further south than now. Or the previous green was somewhere else.]
I still think that in the East Lothian Book of Golf they may have been measuring a hole-to-hole course rather summing the tee-to-green distances. Is it possible that in the decade or so after the rule change many of these holes did not yet have a set tee box or teeing area? When did tee boxes become commonplace? Was it closely after the rules change, or did this develope over time? It would have been kind of cool if the Greenkeeper could have put the tees anywhere from day to day.
Surely Dan King knows.
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David
Honestly, I am not that invested in what the Redan played like in 1877 or whatever. I find it interesting and entertaining, but I don't know anymore than you or anybody else. I just offer an opinion based on the info offered over the past few years. I can see all sorts of possibilities. In the end, what matters most to me is how the plays now.
Ciao
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Sean
I do agree that what matters most now is how the Redan plays today (and has played, for almost all of its life), but I also find it both interesting and illuminating to look at history to see how (and to speculate as to why) influential golf courses such as North Berwick (West) have evolved. The move across the March dyke in 1869 (when the land for the 3rd green and Redan hole was acquired) was an obvious one, and one which gave the course 9 proper holes for the first time in its history. That move in 1877 when the Club first ventured past the stone dyke that now defines the back of the tee on the Redan was probably not as obvious, as the maps posted on the other thread by me through Bryan Izatt shows, for anybody who knows the land. The machinations that the Club went through before in 1895 they finally reached "perfection," including the hole by that name (the old version prior to this date was called "High Bent") are intriguing. Regarding the 1877 course. it is not for nothing that, according to the web history, "One critic in fact designated it 'a good 9-hole course which has been tampered with'!"
As for the Redan, I think that the probabilities are that the hole was played for some undetermined time as a 266 yard par-4 (maybe even only a few years, or even less), but as that hole was too goofy even for North Berwick, the tee was established at its 192-yard position at or before the turning of the last century. My guess is that when they played that tournament in 1895 that Dan cites, the pros refused to play the goofy new tee, and that it eventually faded away. (There are, BTW, several instances in Scotland where the "medal" tees on golf courses are shorter than the "back" tees. One example I have recently played is the 16th at Pitreavie, where the medal tee is ~190 uphill to a hard two-tier green, whilst the ladies tee is ~230, and there seems to be an even further back tee (~260) which I asume was part of MacKenzie's original layout).
Finally, the record indicates that the Redan played at 210 in the 1877-1895 period. Looking at Google maps it seems that there was a tee, at about 210 yards (to the west of the stone dyke), at sometime in the past.
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&tab=wl&q=north%20berwick
Cheers
Rich
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Stumbled across this early photo of NGLA's Redan by Edwin Levick (1869 - 1929) from NYPL. I've also posted a photo I took a few years ago.
(http://images.nypl.org/index.php?id=101802&t=w)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/Golf%20Courses/NGLA/Img1455.jpg?t=1256251545)
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(There are, BTW, several instances in Scotland where the "medal" tees on golf courses are shorter than the "back" tees. One example I have recently played is the 16th at Pitreavie, where the medal tee is ~190 uphill to a hard two-tier green, whilst the ladies tee is ~230, and there seems to be an even further back tee (~260) which I asume was part of MacKenzie's original layout).
Yes Rich that is because the ladies tee is a Par 4. But you knew that... ;)
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I did know that Brian. The analogy to the Redan is in relation to the presumed back tee which would have been a man's par-4 now abandoned and hidden in the underbrush. Maybe Marty can confirm or deny my presumption.
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I really don't know why anyone is bothering to argue about it. Looking at the plan created by Bryan I have no reason to not doubt it could have been a par 4.
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The closest I have to a report on the course pre 1877 is the Third Great Match between Old Tom & Willie Park over the North Berwick Course on Tuesday the 4th April 1870. I have the 1875 report and the only other one is the report from 1895 of the extension. However, I attach the 1870 report for your information.
(http://i346.photobucket.com/albums/p421/Melvyn_Hunter/TMorrisWPark200GreatMatchTue1904187.jpg)(http://i346.photobucket.com/albums/p421/Melvyn_Hunter/TMorrisWPark200GreatMatchTue1904-1.jpg)(http://i346.photobucket.com/albums/p421/Melvyn_Hunter/TMorrisWPark200GreatMatchTue1904-2.jpg)
Melvyn
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Finally, the record indicates that the Redan played at 210 in the 1877-1895 period. Looking at Google maps it seems that there was a tee, at about 210 yards (to the west of the stone dyke), at sometime in the past.
Rich, I see what you are referring to, but have my doubts that this was the "210 yard" Redan tee. From Blythe's reminiscence in the East Lothian Book:
The first extension of the green into the park beyond the west wall was, I think, in 1870. There were three holes, the first being in the neighbourhood of Perfection (presently the fourteenth hole); from there we played to the south-west corner of the park, to where the fourth hole of the ladies' green now is; from that to the Redan, which was a lovely shot.
So the green previous to the Redan (and therefor the redan tee) was in the southwest corner of "the park" at the site of the 4th hole on the Women's course. I presume that his was down by that building that is there now, If one looks just south of the 4th tee on Google one can see a few areas that may have once been greens and/or tees. This would have made the Redan a more straight on shot.
http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=56.061079,-2.7428542&z=18&t=h&hl=en (http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=56.061079,-2.7428542&z=18&t=h&hl=en)
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One thing I'd like to say about a vast, vast difference of the original redan (North Berwick's #15) compared to any other redan I've ever seen and played is the massive hill or mound that virtually blinds its right side and certainly its entire right to left "kicker" from the tee.
Why did no other redan utilize that truly prominent feature of the original redan? Could it have been because when the redan first came to be copied in architecture the whole idea of blindness was becoming really controversial and going out of fashion?
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Tom,
I don't have an opinion on the historical aspect...but would you agree that the blindness (and more specifically, what it is hiding) is as valuable as the big low side bunker STRATEGICALLY?
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"Tom,
I don't have an opinion on the historical aspect...but would you agree that the blindness (and more specifically, what it is hiding) is as valuable as the big low side bunker STRATEGICALLY?"
Sully:
Yes I would, definitely, but always recognizing that someone may counter by asking what blindness has to do exactly with strategy.
I certainly think it does, particularly on a hole of this type. By that I mean that one of the neatest things about a really good redan hole, in my opinion, is actually being able to see and watch that really cool "redan shot" that almost must (particularly under F&F conditions) bounce and roll OFF that kicker which is generally fairway area and filter onto the green and down to the pin. I can tell you from a lot of experience at redans like NGLA's and Piping Rock's and even the old Links Club that you are looking from the tee very hard right at and concentrating very hard on landing your tee shot right on that fairway kicker and even on a particular spot on it! Particularly under really firm and fast conditions if you don't do that your chances of hitting those greens is not very good!
With the redan at NB you just can't see it happen because you can't see it from the tee because of that massive mound or hill that blinds the entire right or kicker on or just off the green on the right. Do I consider that blindness at NB's redan to be highly strategic too? You bet I do, and the only shot I ever hit on the NB redan is proof positive to me of exactly that. I actually thought I hit my tee shot about 40 yards too far right but when I got up to the green my ball was about 2 feet from the left pin. I was totally shocked because I hadn't seen any of it. I actually thought I missed the entire green about 20 yards too far right. Had I actually hit my tee shot where I thought I should I probably would've missed the green left or been behind it somewhere.
To me that is really cool stuff even though I have never seen or played another redan anywhere with the same kind of right-side blindness that NB's redan has.
So the question to me becomes----why didn't Macdonald and all the rest who ever did a redan par 3 ever copy that particularly really significant architectural aspect (that entire right side blindness) of the original redan----eg North Berwick's #15?
Matter of fact, when Ammerman and I first went past the redan on the way out, he said to me: "Who would be so stupid as to put a huge mound with some bunkers in it out in the middle of nowhere?" My only response to that was that I had no idea who would be that stupid! At the time we didn't even see the redan behind that massive mound. But when we came off of #14 and got back to the 15th tee near the tee we looked at it on the way out then it became obvious. Do you think we felt like a couple of unobservant wahoos? No question about that either. ;)
That was quite the round for me and Craig, and not the least reason being by that time he had already hit the quite attractive Mrs. Majors ahead of us in the ass at least twice and perhaps even three times! ::) ;D
Still today Craig says that NB was one of the neatest golf courses he has ever seen and he's seen a lot.
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"What does blindness have to do with strategy?"
I would say STRATEGY is a reflection of, or attempt at, CONTROL. And blindness certainly reduces the amount of control you have because you never REALLY know what you got until you get around the feature and see your ball.
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Sully:
I think that is exactly right.
I love blindness or more precisely blindness that is somehow juxtaposed or married with visibility because I firmly believe that most golfers and even very good ones instinctively want to go at something they can actually see or at the very least their eye and concentration can be somewhat drawn to that.
I would say at NB's #15 if most golfers actually went at what they could see from that tee, particularly under real F&F conditions, that their ball would probably not be on that green. Maybe Tiger could hit it at what he could see and keep it on the green with something like one of those 190 yard 8 irons that go about 8 miles in the air but not many of us can hit a golf ball like Tiger can!
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October 25, 1854
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Sean
I do agree that what matters most now is how the Redan plays today (and has played, for almost all of its life), but I also find it both interesting and illuminating to look at history to see how (and to speculate as to why) influential golf courses such as North Berwick (West) have evolved. The move across the March dyke in 1869 (when the land for the 3rd green and Redan hole was acquired) was an obvious one, and one which gave the course 9 proper holes for the first time in its history. That move in 1877 when the Club first ventured past the stone dyke that now defines the back of the tee on the Redan was probably not as obvious, as the maps posted on the other thread by me through Bryan Izatt shows, for anybody who knows the land. The machinations that the Club went through before in 1895 they finally reached "perfection," including the hole by that name (the old version prior to this date was called "High Bent") are intriguing. Regarding the 1877 course. it is not for nothing that, according to the web history, "One critic in fact designated it 'a good 9-hole course which has been tampered with'!"
As for the Redan, I think that the probabilities are that the hole was played for some undetermined time as a 266 yard par-4 (maybe even only a few years, or even less), but as that hole was too goofy even for North Berwick, the tee was established at its 192-yard position at or before the turning of the last century. My guess is that when they played that tournament in 1895 that Dan cites, the pros refused to play the goofy new tee, and that it eventually faded away. (There are, BTW, several instances in Scotland where the "medal" tees on golf courses are shorter than the "back" tees. One example I have recently played is the 16th at Pitreavie, where the medal tee is ~190 uphill to a hard two-tier green, whilst the ladies tee is ~230, and there seems to be an even further back tee (~260) which I asume was part of MacKenzie's original layout).
Finally, the record indicates that the Redan played at 210 in the 1877-1895 period. Looking at Google maps it seems that there was a tee, at about 210 yards (to the west of the stone dyke), at sometime in the past.
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&tab=wl&q=north%20berwick
Cheers
Rich
Rich
If the records show that the Redan played 210 yards in the late 1800's I would venture it was a two shotter. A really good drive back then would have done well to get that far, especially when you consider that back then the ball didn't fly as far and therefore a much larger percentage of the distance driven would have been down to the roll. That being the case, you can understand how the hole got its name. It would be a hell of a drive to clear "the Redan" and most would have been facing into it for their second shot.
Niall
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Niall,
My theory is that if an when the hole played at 210 yards it must have played from south of the the current tee (the location of the previous 14th green) and so the Redan bunker would have been more to the side, and one could more easily have ran the ball in.
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Thanks for pulling this up, I forgot to post the following article kindly sent to me by Melvyn. It is from The Scotsman, Feb. 27, 1895, and addresses the extension:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/TheScotsmanWed27021895NorthBerwi-2.jpg?t=1256586710)
________________________________________________________________________________________________________
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/TheScotsmanWed27021895NorthBerwi-1.jpg?t=1256586785)
________________________________________________________________________________________________________
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/TheScotsmanWed27021895NorthBerwickG.jpg?t=1256586879)
Again, this article notes that the Redan is unchanged.
Terrific article. Thanks Melvyn!