Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Michael Mimran on May 14, 2008, 08:43:03 PM
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Does anyone plan on playing the Castle Course this spring?
I'm playing it at the end of July and am curious to get the first bits of feedback/photos on it.
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Mike
The scheduled opening date is 28 June. From a quick look at the Links Trust website there are plenty of times available throughout July. I would suspect that the green fee of £120 will keep a lot of people away until more is known as to how it plays.
Please post your feedback/photos after your visit. Enjoy!
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my friend has just played it and fell in love...
...included with this quarter's golf course architecture magazine, there is a full extra supplement which gives the low down on the design, construction and playability of the course....
...adam lawrence describes it as the single best piece of golf construction he has ever seen...
...now, either he's right or he's very good at writing about it... because i wasn't in a hurry to see it until i read this magazine... and now i'm chomping at the bit...
p.s. i have no plans before august 2009 to see the course...
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Was speaking with an R&A member last week. He was telling me that one or two local St Andrean 'good' golfers have been quietly invited up to play in the last few weeks.
There is apparently MUCH concern that some of the green contours will not be able to hang on to stationary balls in anything more than zephyr-like winds.
Yes, you heard it here first. The Castle greens will be re-modelled sometime in the next five years (and the extortionate :o green fees reduced in accordance)(my wishful thinking on both counts - but keep watching, folks).
FBD.
PS And now off to bed for final sleep before 'Philadelphia Freedom'.., nighty-night.
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Stick with me, kids,you'll learn a lot...
Go here and scroll to the page with 'Course News' and run down to the Castle blurb. Those wee reports normally read like: 'This month we will be mostly cutting grass, applying fertiliser and raking sand',
But NOT this one...
http://www.standrews.org.uk/news/newsletter/2008/Links%20News%20NovDec08.pdf
Pandering to the masses? Accepting that true Art is beyond the ken of the common Fifer? Losing money? Recession-proofing?
Whatever it is, it was only too painfully obvious it was gonna happen sooner or sooner.
cheers,
FBD.
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Martin:
Thanks for the link. It doesn't sound like they are making HUGE changes, although they are taking mounds out of the fairways on six or seven holes.
On the last page of the newsletter, is that landed flying saucer the CLUBHOUSE for the Castle Course?
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I was under the assumption that they were also going to soften the greens?? Has this already happened or is it now no longer in the plans?
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How much land does the St. Andrews Links Trust potentially have at its disposal, either in theory or in actual practice, for future courses beyond the Castle Course?
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Tom,
first phase, I'd wager! I know little, but I get the feeling the Links Trust are a little sensitive about the Castle. Hopefully, the exchange rate will get lots of US golfers over this side this year and spending dollars in St A!
Robert,
haven't heard any other news about the greens. They were certainly the subject of much of the original 'criticism'.
JMorgan,
I think the area is just about saturated now. There have been one or two other proposals for development which were refused. The Trust will probably be quiet for a while, but I seem to recall there was talk of a Nicklaus(?) course at the Dukes site.
cheers,
FBD.
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Thanks Marty!!!
I was surprised when I hadn't heard anything about the greens because as you said... and as I heard... that was the focus of the majority of the criticism. It will be interesting to see what happens.
Robert
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Overall I think the mounds in the fairways can be a good idea. However, they need to be introduced to the game slowly, not by filling a course such as the Castle course or Tetherow with them. I am not surprised to see them being reduced.
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http://www.standrews.org.uk/news/newsletter/2008/Links%20News%20NovDec08.pdf
Winter work on The Castle Course includes softening or removing some spill-offs, (mounds) in some landing areas. Mounds to the left of the fourth fairway are to be modified while the mound to the front right of the green will be removed and that area married into the surrounding land. The mound in the centre of the fifth fairway has been removed and similar work is being carried out on the mound in the middle of the sixth fairway. The middle two of four mounds on the ninth will be removed, as will the mound at the front right of the tenth green. On the fifteenth, the mounds in front of the bunker will be altered to improve sight lines. A spill-off in the landing zone on eighteen will be removed and a second one softened. Drainage work continues on a number of fairways. Some sections of pathway are being tarred to prevent the grey dust which coats them from being washed onto greens and fairways during periods of very heavy rain.
Thats quite a bit of work. How much will it change the character and architects intent for the course?
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Tom Doak,
Yes, that's the clubhouse. I believe it was designed that way so that it doesn't block the views toward town from the course. The photo in this newsletter doesn't show it, but it sits beneath a bit of a rise, so the effect actually works--you rarely see it when you're out there. It still calls to mind a Lilliputian Astrodome, but at least they hid it well.
David Elvins,
I can't speak for David Kidd's intent, but the edits to the Castle described in the newsletter may well help bring the elements of skill and chance into better balance. I certainly don't think the removal of a few of the moguls would compromise the character of the course--the holes are more than bold enough in their design that they easily stick in the memory, so why not make them a bit more playable?
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I would hope 120 would become 50 very fast. I do hope the course plays much better than it looked from the road. St Andrews is such a special place that one does not need any more average to poor modern courses.
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I truly enjoyed the clubhouse, it's very modern and has very, very nice amenities. The course I did not care for whatsoever.
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What does the clubhouse look like from the upper end of town?
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Do all St Andreans think it as much of an eyesore as Melvyn does?
ie) Is the clientele strictly American because the locals are not interested in playing a course that has been shaped out of slightly tilted farm land wrapped around a poop processing plant?
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I'm planning on giving the Castle a go come the 1st week of June. I'll try to snap pictures of renovation work if any is taking place at that time (hopefully not). I hopethat a direct, 1st-hand look at that clubhouse won't give me cancer. Yikes.
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Tom Doak
I spent this past weekend in St. Andrews, and the Castle clubhouse is not obviously visible from the town, the other courses or the beach (I didn't notice it, but wasn't really looking either). I did drive through the Castle for a look, and the clubhouse is very weird-looking, like something left over from the 1964 World's Fair on Long Island (viz. the climatic scenes of"Men in Black"). The road down to the clubhouse is weird too. There is very little evidence that you are driving through the middle of a golf course, because the road is lined on both sides by those 5-10 foot Don King Hairdo mounds that (from the pictures) "grace" the course. The clubhouse is settled into those mounds, as Tom Dunne says. Overall, it looks and feels more like a back lot for the old Star Trek series than a golf course, but I'll reserve final judgement until when and if I play the course. I say "if," because at £120 I'm not paying the rack rate. Has anybody on here played the course without being comped? If so, was it value for money?
Rich
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Rich:
I played the Castle last summer with a client, a Scottish course manager and Paul Lawrie (sorry for the namedrop). Paul got a comp (obviously), but the rest of us had to stump up the full whack, including the course manager, who was livid, for as you might know there is 'always' a comp for course managers in the UK.
I have to say I really quite enjoyed the course. The adventurous nature of the design really appealed to me and having been one of the architects in the final selection competition, I could admire what David and Paul have done with a very bleak piece of land. It was certainly an adventure, though the proliferation of hillocks in the line of the tee shots did, after a while, become a frustration. Because you could rarely see the ball come to rest from the tee, it left you feeling distinctly uneasy as to its fate. Clearly, that is something that would moderate with repeated play, which is OK for the locals, but it took away a degree of the fun of a good shot. Nothing wrong with an occasional blind end to a tee shot, but arguably overcooked.
The clubhouse is distinctly odd looking, but looks better from the ground. There was such bitter criticism of the 'monstrosity' of the St. Andrews Bay Hotel that the design of this building is clearly a reaction. However, it is neatly hidden from the town by the sewage plant!
I'd enjoy another shot at it, but not at £120. Mind you, that would go for most places.
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Many thanks, Robin.
As to repeated play by the locals, is the Castle included in their annual golf fee? If not, I can't see too many St. Andreans paying the rack rate on a regular enough basis to gain local knowledge.
Rich
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What I find frustrating about the modifications is that the course hasn't been open a year yet. Either the designer was a knucklehead for thinking this stuff would fly or the powers that be are being too quick to the draw. Either way its wasted money. I can't help feeling that cost of green fees up there could be reduced dramatically if the Links Trust were a bit more savy. It almost seems as though they feel the golden goose will never stop laying and the actual care of the eggs doesn't matter. Sounds like how governments run their ships. I have no time for the Links Trust.
Ciao
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Sean:
I think you're being a bit harsh there. Every new golf course is a prototype until you put people on it. When you attempt a design as avant garde as Kidd did, you are inevitably going to get a few things wrong. I don't see it as a significant weakness of either the Links Trust or David Kidd that they are making a few tweaks. Heaven knows, I've made enough goofs myself to know that you can't always get it absolutely right first time.
The alternative is to stick to the tried, tested and downright dull and no design of great repute has ever been achieved by being ordinary.
Whether you like what they've done or not is a matter of taste, but I don't think you can be too critical of the designer or the LT for having the courage to attempt something distinctive in the first instance, or for being prompt in responding to the feedback they have received and making some minor adjustments.
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Sean:
I think you're being a bit harsh there. Every new golf course is a prototype until you put people on it. When you attempt a design as avant garde as Kidd did, you are inevitably going to get a few things wrong. I don't see it as a significant weakness of either the Links Trust or David Kidd that they are making a few tweaks. Heaven knows, I've made enough goofs myself to know that you can't always get it absolutely right first time.
The alternative is to stick to the tried, tested and downright dull and no design of great repute has ever been achieved by being ordinary.
Whether you like what they've done or not is a matter of taste, but I don't think you can be too critical of the designer or the LT for having the courage to attempt something distinctive in the first instance, or for being prompt in responding to the feedback they have received and making some minor adjustments.
Robin
I admit to being harsh when it comes to the Links Trust because I think they are greatly responsible for the high price of golf in Scotland if not all of GB&I and I don't understand why this is the case. Its not as if the money earned pays dividends. Plus, they keep building and building. St Andrews has become a Scottish version of Disneyworld and its a shame.
I haven't seen the course and I don't intend to, but that isn't the point. The point is a lot of money was spent so why can't the expectation be to get it right the first time? Isn't this what we hope for when we buy anything? In any case, presumably the powers that be signed off on this design. With this in mind I don't think the course has been open long enough to turn away from the archie's intent so quickly. I say give it time, whats the rush?
Ciao
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Sean, how many great courses got it right first time, off the mark, with zero changes afterwords?
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Sean, how many great courses got it right first time, off the mark, with zero changes afterwords?
GREAT QUESTION!!! At Bandon I have seen many changes at BD, but what has been changed at PAC Dunes?
Anthony
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Sean, how many great courses got it right first time, off the mark, with zero changes afterwords?
Jim
I wouldn't have thought too many. What does your question have to do with speed of the changes? I am only suggesting that the seemingly radical design concept at The Castle course hasn't been given enough time to be properly assessed. Given what it costs to build and rebuild, wouldn't it seem prudent to hold off on any changes for a reasonable length of time? If not, why the heck was the radical idea given the green light in the first place? What, an experienced archie and lord knows how many hangers on can't tell if certain features are going to be controversial?
Ciao
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Many thanks, Robin.
As to repeated play by the locals, is the Castle included in their annual golf fee? If not, I can't see too many St. Andreans paying the rack rate on a regular enough basis to gain local knowledge.
Rich
Rich,
It is included in the Links ticket.
Anthony
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Here are some pictures. They don't show alot of the architecture, but I wasn't part of the discussion group when I went.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3561/3289707311_c17e537882.jpg?v=0)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3644/3289705695_7281edf47b.jpg?v=0)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3393/3289704009_083ec725af.jpg?v=0)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3275/3290521190_41e31eacab.jpg?v=0)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3213/3290519832_6c893e8837.jpg?v=0)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3280/3289699817_9829d34aac.jpg?v=0)
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Sean, how many great courses got it right first time, off the mark, with zero changes afterwords?
GREAT QUESTION!!! At Bandon I have seen many changes at BD, but what has been changed at PAC Dunes?
Anthony
#14 on Bandon Trails has been tinkered with quite a bit as well, I'm told.
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Tom Doak
I spent this past weekend in St. Andrews, and the Castle clubhouse is not obviously visible from the town, the other courses or the beach (I didn't notice it, but wasn't really looking either). I did drive through the Castle for a look, and the clubhouse is very weird-looking, like something left over from the 1964 World's Fair on Long Island (viz. the climatic scenes of"Men in Black"). The road down to the clubhouse is weird too. There is very little evidence that you are driving through the middle of a golf course, because the road is lined on both sides by those 5-10 foot Don King Hairdo mounds that (from the pictures) "grace" the course. The clubhouse is settled into those mounds, as Tom Dunne says. Overall, it looks and feels more like a back lot for the old Star Trek series than a golf course, but I'll reserve final judgement until when and if I play the course. I say "if," because at £120 I'm not paying the rack rate. Has anybody on here played the course without being comped? If so, was it value for money?
Rich
Hello Rich, I've played it five times, once comped, once on opening day (invite) and three times using my Links Ticket. The Castle is included on the Links ticket for an extra 10 pounds per year. 160 total is the best deal in golf! Because it is a mile from town it didn't seem to get used by many of the Links ticket holders although almost every other time is available for local play within certain dates.
I don't think the greens have been altered this winter, they were not as bad as many people, including myself, said. They have softened some of the in-fairway Don Kings.
The clubhouse is unusual from the outside and the design caused many difficulties but overall I think it is quite good, the retail area is bigger than the F&B area but it helps raise money for the "charity". Altho it is "hidden" from town, it is very hard to miss from the Torrance Course and our clubhouse is very visable from most of the Castle Course. The spaceship design fits with the seafood restaurant in town, two "modern" buildings.
I doubt seriously that the Links would consider expanding further, the Castle will be their last venture in that direction. Hopefully the Eden and Jubilee could see some improvements with any surplus.