Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Sean_A on May 13, 2008, 11:02:47 AM
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What can I say that hasn't already been said? I got to meet a few great guys; Wayne Morrison & Dan Herman. Its a tribute to my playing partners and the course that my terrible play didn't detract from the day - I enjoyed it immensely! The one thing I am sure of is that I haven't seen a better course than Merion. I played several Doak 10s and until now, none matched
Ballybunion Old Sandwich. In the case of both these great courses, missing a single hole is a mistake. It isn't often that great courses live up to the hype and Merion is certainly as good as folks say. Secondly, I was very impressed with how the 100+ odd beaches were incorporated into the design. Many were not noticeable, which of course begs the question if they are necessary or not. Surely some can come out, but I didn't get the impression that the course was wildly over-bunkered. Third, the drainage of Merion is outstanding. There was something like 2 inches of rain the day before, but there was no evidence of it on the course. Fourth, I was very impressed with how the greens "hid" the slopes. The greens flow wonderfully into their surrounds. The bottom line is that one needs to play the course many times to learn the greens because a ton o' putts can't be read. Finally, after hearing so much about how tight the property is, I was amazed at how expansive the course seemed. Not once did I get the feeling of being hemmed in or thinking that the course could use more space.
This pic of #2 is indicative of my only real beef with the course. I would rather see the bunkering be more in play with fairways extending out to them. The heavy rough stops balls from making these bunkers more efficient. BTW, the bunkers were beautiful - firm and not much sand.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4281/34981999962_ac66ecfd2b_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4281/34981999962_ac66ecfd2b_b.jpg)
Approach to #2. See how there is a ridge running up the left? This made me think that the putt ran downhill to this hole location. This was the first time I heard about THE GRAIN!
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#3, one of those much talked about holes. It is most certainly not a Redan, but a good hole regardless.
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The third shot at #4 - I am not sure what the front bunkers add to the hole. The rough looks benign, but it is similar to a race track in its toughness, depth and lushness.
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I really liked the 5th. Its old school with a grade level sloped green. The creek is used well here as the best approach is from the left - near the water. You also get a rare glimpse of what the bunkering would look like with fairways leading into them. Also, take notice of the 3rd in the background. There is something to be said for interior views.
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The 6th is a bit of a reverse dogleg and plays longer than one may think. The player can bounce one up here, but going long (as is the case on many holes) isn't a great idea. Below is the approach form the right side of the fairway.
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#8 is an odd hole. The line is out off the right bunker even though the hole turns left. The fairway cuts in significantly on the left beyond the blind left fairway bunker. Below is the approach. I thought the angle in was cool as the 9th pin can be seen and the 10th fairway is in the background. Its incredible how the interior views offer a feeling of space when we know the property is fairly tight.
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#9 - all the stuff happening around the green detracts one's attention away from how great this green really is. The big left bunker seems miles from the green, but it is spot on in play.
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#10, a very cool short par 4 legging hard left with the green angled away from the fairway. The 11th tee is accented with this plaque.
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The 11th was a delightful surprise for me. I have no recollection of ever seeing pix of it before. Its a lovely short par 4 over the brow of a hill. Though, I think the hole would flow better if the fairway went past the creek. Below is the approach.
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A look at the hole from further back.
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The 12th whips round to the right. Anything in the rough makes it difficult to reach this hole as it plays uphill. The green is a killer and I am not sure there are many pin placements if the greens are running quick. The 13th is a cracker of a short par 3. I was caught out on the birdie putt. For all its worth the green looks like it flows left to right downhill toward the water, but all who should know said the exact opposite was the case.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4285/34981999032_f995810175_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4285/34981999032_f995810175_b.jpg)
The only awkward green to tee walk cutting across #1 takes us to the 14th. The hole slides left and curiously has bunkering to the outside of the dogleg. There is a freaky little mound just left of the green. I asked Wayne if a ball could kick off that and head for oob. The answer was not definitive, but when Tom P's name is mentioned, answers rarely are definitive! A closer look at the green and its surrounds. From this angle one can see how the rough makes some sense because it flows quite well into the hairy surrounds of the bunkers.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4216/34981998972_e4c6189e8d_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4216/34981998972_e4c6189e8d_b.jpg)
There aren't enough words to describe all the cool holes on Merion. #15 is another good un' which moves to the right over a few bunkers guarding the direct line to the green. This is one of the most severe greens on the course. Though, I thought the 16th was the best. The landing zone is blind and the approach is obscured. One may get a glimpse of the flag if they are on the far left side of the fairway. I followed Wayne's advice and got an obscured approach! Additionally, the fairway is a mere extension of the 15th tee - another very cool detail.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4250/34981998512_3180aa9955_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4250/34981998512_3180aa9955_b.jpg)
A look at the green from the landing zone.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4195/34981998852_14ce6c287d_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4195/34981998852_14ce6c287d_b.jpg)
Anything short lands in the old quarry. The use of the terrain as a natural hazard is is proper old school golf.
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17 takes you back across the quarry to a nasty two tier green - a severe, but fun par 3.
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More history.
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Its a shame it all had to end on 18, but thats life. The use of the land, variety of holes and green complexes are outstanding. However, despite how good Merion is, with the rough kept at a strangling height and often marooning the bunkers to a secondary role, I have to give it 2*. I expect the club has a real dilemma in terms of preserving some championship elements of this fairly short 6400 course while still remaining enjoyable for the membership. Even with the issue of the rough, Merion is the best inland course I have seen and I can't name one links which I think is superior. I only hope I can return some day.
SCORECARD (daily tees)
East Course
Par 70
6103 Yards
1. 333
2. 518
3. 168 !
4. 560
5. 405 !!
6. 410
7. 343
8. 342
9. 160/169 !
10. 349 !
11. 349 !
12. 334
13. 121
14. 387
15. 353 !
16. 407 !
17. 208 !
18. 411
Ciao
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Simply put, its one of the most beautiful and inspiring designs I have ever seen. My favorite picture thus far is the one of #8, it is so cool to see the other green in the distance.
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Great stuff, Sean. You might be on your way to taking over Philip Gawith's role as Chief GCA.com photographer.
Rich
PS--So is the 3rd a Redan?
R
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Great stuff, Sean. You might be on your way to taking over Philip Gawith's role as Chief GCA.com photographer.
Rich
PS--So is the 3rd a Redan?
R
Rihc
I am not sure why anyone would think #3 is a Redan. If one were to put a label on it, a volcano type hole is more appropriate. In fact, the 9th is far more Redan-like than #3, but it ain't a Redan either.
Ciao
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Sean,
What is there about Ballybunion that puts it so high in your view? BTW it is my favorite Irish course. For me, the routing is magical.
This is what I don't see at Merion-- a routing that knocks my socks off. The two par fives over by #4 creates a lack of variety for me for the rest of the course. Also, there is just too much back and forth for my taste. The section from #6 through #13 is too long a stretch of less than terrific holes for me with sevearl short par fours in a short time.. My objections are about Merion not being at the very highest level.
There can't be so many blemishes for the very best courses.
How much do the two plaques add to the aura of Merion ?
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I see the need for a lot of cubic feet of sawdust. Or is that heretical talk about the Philly shrine?
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Sean
You lucky boy you!
Having spent the past few weeks trying to keep up with all the threads on the history of Merion it's great to have a thread which lets those of us who have never seen it and will never get the chance to play it an opportunity to glean why it is so important to the history of American golf course architecture.
I look forward to viewing the back nine. Have you any more treats for us from your Stateside visit?
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Sean, couldn't agree more with you about the bunkering. In an effort to narrow the fairways, the bunkers are being taken out of play. I would like to see the fairways run into the bunkers - when you look at #1 the fairway should go round the outsides of the bunkers thus allowing the ball to run in to them. This seems to happen way too often these days. The course does look like a lot of fun though. It's definitely on my list!
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Sean,
Great pics. Beautiful bunkering. In person, does the course appear as tight, maybe a bit congested in places, as it does to me when viewing Google maps? Are you comfortable on most tees pulling out the driver?
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As always, Sean, thanks for the pictures, and especially for a detailed look at Merion today. I'm not suprised you liked it so much -- to my eyes at least it looks mostly as understated and subtle as the courses you play on the Sean Mini Tour of English Parkland Courses.
Peter
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Thanks Sean! Your photos are a great reminder of the greatest day I have ever had playing this game - my day at Merion. I'm glad that you seemed to have enjoyed it as much as I did.
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Sean,
Great pics. Beautiful bunkering. In person, does the course appear as tight, maybe a bit congested in places, as it does to me when viewing Google maps? Are you comfortable on most tees pulling out the driver?
Lou
The course doesn't feel at all congested. There is one crossover to #14 tee (the crossover to #3 is not an issue imo) and the 10th tee is exposed to back gardens. Traffic can be heard, but rarely seen. I think the routing is quite a feat and don't understand Mayday's complaints.
Ciao
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Sean - Great pics that captured a wonderful day! It was really great meeting you and bringing up the names of Red Wing greats :)
I don't know how grain works with bentgrass greens, but it certainly affects things here, doesn't it.... Yep - 2 inches of rain the day before, and Matt's guys on the maintenance staff had the course in championship conditions - not a drop of casual water to be found.
A day at Merion is a day in golf heaven. It truly is a cathedral of golf.
#11 is a diabolical hole that rips your heart out if you misplay it - one of the hardest "short" holes I've ever played. What design! Fair but punishing personified. And a walk through the quarry at 16 makes one think of all the greats that have walked that trail before you. It's a very humbling experience.
It's the longest 6100+ course (from the member's tees) I've ever played. It's going to be a wonderful test for the Walker Cup and the US Open.
Terry - trees aren't really an issue at all at Merion East.
Mayday - I happen to LOVE the routing. The routing provides a sense of adventure much like a well-crafted symphony. It has its movements - some sweet and soothing, some loud and pounding. But it climaxes at 16, 17, and 18.
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Nice photos. It really is one unique place that will test every part of ones game.
But, no comment on the showers?
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Sean,
Thanks for posting all of these pictures! What a great looking course!
Best,
Peter
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Sean,
I have been lurking here for years, pulling up GCA.com every day hoping that someone would post a photo essay of Merion. Finally, that day is here. Thank you, from the bottom of my heart.
And I'm really sorry about the sh*nks.
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Thank you Sean...Merion is in my top 5 for sure..so thanks for the pictures as a reminder of just how glorious she is....
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Britt - don't worry about his s*'s - Sean can hit the tee ball a country mile!
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Sean,
Thanks for the wonderful pics. It is great to see this truely magnificent course.
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Sean - Outstanding photos of a great course. I've never played Merion, but from your pictures my first thought was... "what's with all the rough!!!" It gives one the impression that the folks at Merion artifically make their course as hard as they can to protect its image.
As several have mentioned, many bunkers have obviously been taken out of play by bringing the fairways in so narrow. Can the course not stand up and protect itself without all that rough? Merion is no doubt one of the USA's best courses, but I'd hate to think it serves a role model for how courses should be set up.
I saw the same type setup the first time I played the Cascades Course at The Homestead: artifically narrowed fairways just to make the course more difficult. If you missed the extremely narrow fairways by one foot you were usually reduced to just hacking it back into play... lot's of fun!?!? It that also the case at Merion?
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Sean - Outstanding photos of a great course. I've never played Merion, but from your pictures my first thought was... "what's with all the rough!!!" It gives one the impression that the folks at Merion artifically make their course as hard as they can to protect its image.
As several have mentioned, many bunkers have obviously been taken out of play by bringing the fairways in so narrow. Can the course not stand up and protect itself without all that rough? Merion is no doubt one of the USA's best courses, but I'd hate to think it serves a role model for how courses should be set up.
I saw the same type setup the first time I played the Cascades Course at The Homestead: artifically narrowed fairways just to make the course more difficult. If you missed the extremely narrow fairways by one foot you were usually reduced to just hacking it back into play... lot's of fun!?!? It that also the case at Merion?
Michael
I think there is a case to be made for some of the rough especially where there are cut ins to create angles. Plus, the course is very short. Having said that, I never felt the fairways weren't wide enough - though the ball wasn't rolling too much possibly because of the heavy rains. For me, its more of an aesthetic thing and to try and get the bunkering more in play.
Ciao
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Sean - Outstanding photos of a great course. I've never played Merion, but from your pictures my first thought was... "what's with all the rough!!!" It gives one the impression that the folks at Merion artifically make their course as hard as they can to protect its image.
As several have mentioned, many bunkers have obviously been taken out of play by bringing the fairways in so narrow. Can the course not stand up and protect itself without all that rough? Merion is no doubt one of the USA's best courses, but I'd hate to think it serves a role model for how courses should be set up.
I saw the same type setup the first time I played the Cascades Course at The Homestead: artifically narrowed fairways just to make the course more difficult. If you missed the extremely narrow fairways by one foot you were usually reduced to just hacking it back into play... lot's of fun!?!? It that also the case at Merion?
I do not understand why rough would keep the golf course from being a "role model" for others? The rough did not appear to be overgrown or of extreme height. The course looks to be maintained very well, to include the rough, and has a look that is consistent to other top tier courses.
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The rough is definitely playable, and the fairways certainly have adequate width.
Keep in mind that the pictures were taken in May on a day after a 2" rainfall - grass grows very rapidly with those two variables at play.
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Sean,
Many thanks for the photos and the accompanying words on the course. The beauty almost brings a tear to my eye. One day I'll get there!
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There can't be so many blemishes for the very best courses.
How much do the two plaques add to the aura of Merion ?
Mayday,
I have been fortunate to play with a number of first time players at Merion ranging in handicaps from 2 to 18. Most have had their lunch handed to them, a few played the course very well. All loved and gushed over the course. I am actually amazed at how people love that course. If you want to argue that 7-12 has too many short fours for a Championship Course, you are probably not wrong. I don't play Championship golf, so that is okay with me.
If you don't see greatness in some of the individual holes on that stretch, then you are missing something.
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Sean,
What is there about Ballybunion that puts it so high in your view? BTW it is my favorite Irish course. For me, the routing is magical.
This is what I don't see at Merion-- a routing that knocks my socks off. The two par fives over by #4 creates a lack of variety for me for the rest of the course. Also, there is just too much back and forth for my taste. The section from #6 through #13 is too long a stretch of less than terrific holes for me with sevearl short par fours in a short time.. My objections are about Merion not being at the very highest level.
There can't be so many blemishes for the very best courses.
How much do the two plaques add to the aura of Merion ?
Mayday
I am not sure which holes are blemishes. The variety of the course is tremendous and hard to fathom given how many short holes there are, but all are very different. I will grant you that the par 5s are not stellar, but they aren't far off being very good and the archie had th egood sense to limit the number to 2.
You are confusing me with the routing comments. Ballybunion has a very routine front 6 routing. It marches out 6 holes with a few cut backs. It only gets interesting because of the topography and how you get a few holes on the sea - knowing you will return.
Ciao
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Sean,
Thanks for the wonderful pics and I'm glad you had a great time visiting.
re: your Merion East pics...It might help explain why some of us are so passionate about it.
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Sean,
Thanks for posting, having only seen scattered photos from Merion prior it is neat to see more details on some of the oft discussed holes. I can see why it is highly regarded!
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Stunning, thanks for the photos Sean.
I'm in the group who have read so much about it, but haven't seen it. Easy to see why there are people around so passionate about the place.
Where does the name 'Merion' evolve from? Any meaning? I must admit, I haven't read the essay or all of the posts, so apologies if it is in there somewhere.
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Where does the name 'Merion' evolve from? Any meaning? I must admit, I haven't read the essay or all of the posts, so apologies if it is in there somewhere.
It is the name of a nearby town, but it appears that Merion Cricket never was located in Merion:
http://www.merioncricket.com/default.aspx?p=GenericModuleDefault&NoModResize=1&NoNav=1&ShowFooter=False&ModID=31077&modtype=Briefnbsp;Historynbsp;ofnbsp;thenbsp;Merionnbsp;Cricketnbsp;Club&sl=1&vnf=0&ssid=0&dpageid=201421
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tremendous photos of one of my 5 favorite courses on the planet
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re: the name / trivia
Kobe Bryant attended Lower Merion High School.
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Sean,
Just outstanding photos of outstanding holes. I think thats the best pic I've seen of 16 and how the quarry sits in relation to that hole...epic stuff.
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Those pics are fantastic. Having only ever seen the course during the US Am a few years ago, these pictures are a great window into the course. I've been told by several people that Merion isn't all it's cracked up to be, but I certainly don't understand that viewpoint having seen these pictures. Thanks Sean!
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For those who would like to see Merion up close and personal, plan a visit to the 2009 Walker Cup matches in September.
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Thanks all. I wish my camera was better so I could get some of the green detail, ah well. They are a really cool set of greens that work beautifully with the land. Theres not a patch of crazy to be found.
Wayne - does anybody play up the fairway of #16 to the 15th tee?
Ciao
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Sean,
Some of the big drivers may land the ball up the slope towards the 15th tee, the so-called Ladies Aid (many cannot cross the quarry in one shot). While it leaves a blind shot to the green, it isn't unreasonable since it is a shorter shot. Most long hitters simply take 3 wood and leave themselves a 6 to 8 iron in, depending upon the wind.
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For those who would like to see Merion up close and personal, plan a visit to the 2009 Walker Cup matches in September.
If you're in the area, a nice walk on Golf House road gives you a wonderful view of 1, 14, 15, and 16. And a drive down Ardmore gets you nice views of 2, 10, 12, and 13.
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This is what I don't see at Merion-- a routing that knocks my socks off. The two par fives over by #4 creates a lack of variety for me for the rest of the course. Also, there is just too much back and forth for my taste. The section from #6 through #13 is too long a stretch of less than terrific holes for me with sevearl short par fours in a short time.. My objections are about Merion not being at the very highest level.
There can't be so many blemishes for the very best courses.
Mike, which course do you think is better: Merion East or Rolling Green?
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Merion East is better, but not by much. RG is not in the top ten ,so I don't hold it to as high a standard. For comparison purposes I enjoy NGLA more than Merion and could place Plainfield at its level as well.. I think the thing that gives Merion the edge is the complexity of the greens. But, I think the routing is better at RG. It has a better variety throughout. The aura of Merion seems to overwhelm people.
Lahinch, Ballybunion, Royal County Down, and Portrush would all exceed it.
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Obviously, to each their own, but I think #6 - #13 offer excellent variety ... #6 is a fantastic hole with a green site that is ideally suited for a longer iron in, which contrasts well with #7 and #8, that require shorter shot precision. #9 is a brutal one shot downhiller and #10 along with #13 is the last chance at a birdie for many a golfer. #11 is mythic (allow an ad guy some hyperbole!) and #12 (along with #15) is one of the great driving holes at Merion.
Does anyone think the green at #12 will be too severe for US OPEN speed?
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Dan - it's not too severe if you play the approach correctly.
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For those who would like to see Merion up close and personal, plan a visit to the 2009 Walker Cup matches in September.
Thanks for the info, Steve. A trip may have to be planned next September. The place looks simply amazing. I had a friend play out there last year and absolutely raved about the club. What a special club indeed.
Scott
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What? What? What?
So it is only MODERN architects who are EVIL if they have trees in play? Is this golfclubatlas.com or not? Why are we not hearing tirades for the purging in 'The Great Merion Forest'? Burn 'em!
LOL!
I have seen Merion on TV, and now all these great pix here. I will never play it, but I can certainly enjoy it.
But where are the treesmashers here? :D :D
Doug
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But where are the treesmashers here? :D :D
Doug
Doug:
In all sincerity, I don't see that many trees depicted in Sean's photos that look like they might interfere with play (with the admittedly huge caveat that my reading, like yours, is based solely on Sean's viewpoint and camera angles and whatnot...) The trees seem to be much less in play than the overgrowth seen on the Lulu thread.
For instance:
-- On the fairway of the 2nd, there is a large tree on the left side of the fairway, in the rough between the 2nd and 5th fairways, that fronts a bunker by -- guessing here -- 50 yards? I don't think that bunker is reachable from the tee, but I could be wrong. I'm not sure cutting it down would do that much to improve either the 2nd or the 5th (the bunker to the left of the large tree on the right side of the 5th fairway is in play off the 5th tee, I believe.)
-- I suppose one could argue the tree or tree branches encroaching from the right side on the approach to the 7th could be cut; the angle of the photo suggests those branches could prevent a ball from going into the bunker just below (which, does not look like a fun bunker). But, again, hard to tell from the angle.
-- I do wonder about the chute effect of the 10th tee shot, which is a very short, dogleg hole (315?ish) and presumably could be driven by today's players. Perhaps the chute maintains the integrity of how Wilson and Co. wanted the hole to be played.
-- I actually really like that big old tree sitting right behind the green at 13 (the basket flag is right in the middle of the trunk). It's often said trees help frame shots; just a guess here, but I think that tree adds to the visual deception of the hole, because I think it's further behind the green than what appears in the photo. That big lip on the fronting bunker, it seems, can partially hide many a pin position, and the threat of hitting what looks like a close tree long would seem to wreak havoc on a golfer's thoughts on the tee. Is 13 regularly included among the list of great short par 3s in the country? It surely ought to be.
-- I also like the stubby little tree just past the fairway bunker on 16. Does it come into play? I'm guessing it does, for those wanting to cut the corner. But maybe the preferred way to play the hole is just short of where the fairway makes that abrupt right turn up the hill.
Looking at the (very good) Google aerial of Merion East, I'm struck by how tightly confined the course is, fitted within two corridors of what is essentially a backward "L." It seems logical on a course in a residential setting to have many trees on the perimeter of the course (I sort of hope Lederach grows a few, to avoid the numerous views into people's living rooms from that course). But the aerial shows modest numbers of trees in the interior of Merion, particularly for a course with what appears to be playing corridors quite close to one another.
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What? What? What?
So it is only MODERN architects who are EVIL if they have trees in play? Is this golfclubatlas.com or not? Why are we not hearing tirades for the purging in 'The Great Merion Forest'? Burn 'em!
LOL!
I have seen Merion on TV, and now all these great pix here. I will never play it, but I can certainly enjoy it.
But where are the treesmashers here? :D :D
Doug
Doug
Its another tribute to this clever design that trees aren't "necessary" for safety reasons. Sure, I would like to see some trees come out, but in truth, trees are not really an issue. For instance, I could see more trees come out of one hole at Rolling Green or LuLu (though I am told that loads have come out and more are planned) than the entire Merion course. Again, I can't see how folks can fail to be impressed the course. I am amazed at how it all works for 6100 yards. The blend of elements is near on perfect.
Ciao
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Only the most severely mishit shots get punished by trees at Merion. I know because I have done it. Trees aren't an issue there. I love the look of some of their evergreens. I think Wayne knows the story there. As I look at Sean's photos I see one at the back of #4.
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Looking at these wonderful photos reminds me:
I cannot conceive how the Merion property and surrounds will support the gargantuan infrastructure now required by a US Open.
WW
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Looking at these wonderful photos reminds me:
I cannot conceive how the Merion property and surrounds will support the gargantuan infrastructure now required by a US Open.
WW
WW
I don't have a clue how Merion is going to pull off the space aspects of an Open, but I am sure they will figure something out! Perhaps Wayne can help out in explaining some of the logistics for parking, spectators and consumer/corporate tents.
Ciao
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For the 1981 Open, spectators parked at Villanova football stadium and took the P&W train right to the club. It was simple. Since Villanova is in summer session, there was plenty of parking, but they may need more parking space now. The P&W must have other parking along the route to Merion including 69th Street Terminal in Philly, and I am sure they will have bus parking too.
The practice range is over on The West and they shuttle players back and forth. Ardmore Avenue is shut down.
The big question is all the corporate tents that are now probably 10 times as big as 1981. I believe the East range will extend over to Haverford College via a bridge that will be built between the two similar to the bridge over the highway between Shinnecock and Southampton College. I am guessing that owners (some who are members) will rent out their homes on Club House Road along 14 and 15. I am also guessing they will have some tents on The West too.
The USGA is probably hoping that the Philly crowd stays in the tents and parties, because the hard part will be getting people on and around the course, especially when you have the wave following Tiger. The course is stretched to the max and there are a number of choke points starting with the cross over 1 from 13 to 14 and also over 3 tee from 5 to 6.
Say what you will about the USGA, but they are Kings of Logistics and I am guessing that it will run pretty smoothly and they will have the Merchandise Tent strategically placed. :D
A friend of mine who is a member came up to the last Open at Winged Foot, and he recognized that they would probably lose The West for at least a year between set-up and repair. The days of the old private clubs for The US Open is probably fading.
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Good news - The '09 Walker Cup site is up, and they have a walking tour of Merrion up for your enjoyment: http://www.2009walkercup.org/coursewalk2.html
One of the quotes from the tour: ""The unique character of each individual bunker is what provides Merion with the most exquisite tapestry in golf." –Gil Hanse "
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I just played Merion East this past Monday and once again it was a fabulous experience. IMHO Merion East is one of the very best, if not the best, parkland courses in the world. There are some great short par 4s but the course doesn't feel short - perhaps that is because there are only 2 par 5s and the par 3s are not that long - with the exception of #17 which is one helluva hole! 10 is one of the great short par 4s in the world - it will be very interesting to see how the pros will play it in the US Open - I can't imagine Tiger hitting much more than a 5 iron off of this tee.
I have two minor quibbles with the course:
The rough is too long and severe.
The fescue is way, way too penal.
The rough has already been commented on in this thread so I won't go into too much detail but the rough is extremely thick and when wet it is hard to hit much more than an 8 iron out of the rough. (FWIW - I play to a 10)
But the fescue is as dense as the rough and 1.5 feet high which I believe is wrong. I believe that fescue should be wispy but at Merion East you were very lucky to find your ball if you are in the fescue. While there is not a huge amount of fescue on the course there is enough to make it an issue. With the current thickness of the fescue it is more penal than a water hazard since the likely outcome is a lost ball and even when you find it one can hardly get a club on the ball - especially on the left side of 14. I can somewhat understand the long fescue on some of the shorter par 4s like 8 and 10 but 14 is a hard enough hole without all of that fescue on the left and the fescue surrounding the bunkers on the right.
I don't think that the trees are an issue, they don't really come into play unless you are well off the fairway.
Maybe the current setup makes sense in June of 2013, but man it kicks your ass! That being said I look forward to an opportunity to play the course in the future as it is one of the truly special golf courses (and clubs) on the planet.
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Wayne,
So if Tiger hits a five iron wouldn't that mean it is not a great par four?
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Fantastic set of photos, thankyou Sean.
Having not played it makes any judgements lack value, but the cut of the fairways and the rough lines on the par 4's, combined with the bunkers all being in the rough (a pet hate), makes me think that this is one amazing golf course being held back by modern set-up practices.
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Wayne Kozun - Keep in mind that we've had a TON of rain this year with cool temperatures. Both prescriptions for abundant grass growth. It's gotten to the point that a shot from the rough at my club (25 miles from Merion East) now requires a well struck pitching wedge just to advance.
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Sean Arble,
Thanks for the pictures.
For some reason I like pictures taken on overcast days, perhaps you pick up more of the contours on the golf course.
This is what I don't see at Merion-- a routing that knocks my socks off.
Mayday,
I think the routing is brilliant, especially the crossovers, which I'm not usually fond of. But, at Merion, their use is ingenious.
While I haven't attempted the exercise, with that property and roads running through it, along with the location of the facilities, I think you'd be hard pressed to come up with a better routing.[/color]
The two par fives over by #4 creates a lack of variety for me for the rest of the course.
Can't you say that about all par 70's ?
How do you rate/evaluate the back nine at Pacific Dunes, with 4 par 3's, 3 par 5's and only 2 par 4's ?[/color]
Also, there is just too much back and forth for my taste. The section from #6 through #13 is too long a stretch of less than terrific holes for me with several short par fours in a short time..
To each his own.
George Haines described Merion as a three course meal and I tend to agree with him. 1-5, 6-13 and 14-18. Each component has their own feel or personality. I happen to love the stretch of 6-13, it's very "sporty".[/color]
My objections are about Merion not being at the very highest level.
I don't understand the comment.
At the very highest level for whom ?[/color]
There can't be so many blemishes for the very best courses.
I don't see the blemishes.
Perhaps love is blind, or, perhaps you have a unique standard by which to measure a courses greatness.[/color]
How much do the two plaques add to the aura of Merion ?
For me ?
In evaluating the architecture, the golf course and its playability, NONE at all.
Giving or taking merit from a golf course based upon the clubs Tiger Woods uses in his approach shots seems like a seriously flawed evaluative process.
I couldn't care less, as to the clubs Tiger hits into the greens at Maidstone, NGLA, GCGC, Seminole, Wild Horse, Hidden Creek, Merion, Inwood and many, many other "sporty" golf courses.[/color]
Dan Herrmann,
You definitely have those special "philly" glasses on.
The rough is penal, especially around the bunker edges.
And, the fairways are too narrow.
They were never returned to their pre-U.S. Open widths years ago, and, I suspect that they will continue to shrink.
While the club can take great pride in hosting another U.S. Open, from a purist view, I can't wait until the event is over and the course returned to "user friendly" member play ....... if that happens..... and I hope it does.
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Wayne
How do the members feel about the rough? Are there any murmerings of "hack it down" or trying to connect fairways with bunkers?
Dan
Of course I have some sympathy for spring growth being difficult to control, but a club with a budget the size of Merion's must make some sort of decision to keep the rough because they surely could cut it down if they wanted to.
Ciao
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Sean,
I believe it would be a mistake to discuss the feelings of the membership on this website.
I will say that the rough is generally kept at a lower height than in the past. If there are heavy rains the day before or morning of play, the rough will not get cut. This is a time when you can get a lot of growth in a short period of time. It is also a time of year when the blades of grass aren't that strong so the balls tend to sit down more so than later in the year. I believe the rough is cut everyday under normal circumstances. I also believe the result of rotary mowers (grass tends to stand up) versus reel mowers (grass tends to lay in one direction) is that the same grass height plays harder for grass mown by rotaries.
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Sean:
You noted that the approach to #16 is blind??? Not to my recollection. I suppose if you were standing on the right edge of the fairway and the wickerbasketstick was cut on the right 1/3 of the green, the quarry might block out the wickerbasketstick from sight. But even from there, you could still see most of the front of the green. From everywhere left of that, the whole front of the green is in plain sight. We might be talking semantics here, but with nothing obstructing your view of the green, how is that a "blind" approach.
The approach to #14 is truly blind as is the approach to #18 from the bottom of the hill. If you're going for #4 in two shots, that will also be a blind approach. But #16?? Please explain.
Phil McDade:
The "tree" up the left side of #2 is actually a trio of very tall trees spaced about 20 yards apart that, frankly, are essential to the difficulty of that hole. Without them, a long hitter could bail out way left off the tee all day long and still have an unencumbered second shot back across the far bunker that would set up a fairly routine approach. Bottom line: the OB right would be taken out of play (plus the golfers playing the 5th hole would need pith helmets or worse). As it now stands, those 3 trees are big enough, and positioned so perfectly, that there is virtually no way that a 2nd shot from over there can be aimed so as to make the green reachable in regulation. If they ever die, especially the front one closest to the green, they/it really need to be replaced.
Mayday:
It was noted earlier on this thread that #6 isn't at all short and is always included with #'s 1-5 as part of Merion's "first act".
Frankly, I've thought the knock about #'s 7-13 has always been overdone and never more so than in the last 5 years since #9 has been lengthened to almost 190 yards from the new back tee and, especially, since #12 has been lengthened such that the tee shot must now carry 240+ yards to safely cross Cobbs Creek. Does that stretch seem underwhelming compared to the first six and the "Back Five"? Probably - but look what those holes are being compared TO.
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Wayne,
So if Tiger hits a five iron wouldn't that mean it is not a great par four?
Sorry for the delayed response -I meant that it must be very unusual to be hitting a 5 iron off the tee on a US Open course. I have no problems with pros hitting a 5 iron off of a tee on a par 4 and I think #10 is a great short par 4. Short par 4s are also one of my favourite types of holes - it is a shame that you do not see as many built nowadays. Who would build a course like Merion today? With short par 4s back-to-back on 10&11.
By the way I meant the 11th hole is where it is likely that Tiger will play a 5 iron. It will be interesting to see what he uses on 10 - will the pros go for the green?
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Sean:
You noted that the approach to #16 is blind??? Not to my recollection. I suppose if you were standing on the right edge of the fairway and the wickerbasketstick was cut on the right 1/3 of the green, the quarry might block out the wickerbasketstick from sight. But even from there, you could still see most of the front of the green. From everywhere left of that, the whole front of the green is in plain sight. We might be talking semantics here, but with nothing obstructing your view of the green, how is that a "blind" approach.
The approach to #14 is truly blind as is the approach to #18 from the bottom of the hill. If you're going for #4 in two shots, that will also be a blind approach. But #16?? Please explain.
Phil McDade:
The "tree" up the left side of #2 is actually a trio of very tall trees spaced about 20 yards apart that, frankly, are essential to the difficulty of that hole. Without them, a long hitter could bail out way left off the tee all day long and still have an unencumbered second shot back across the far bunker that would set up a fairly routine approach. Bottom line: the OB right would be taken out of play (plus the golfers playing the 5th hole would need pith helmets or worse). As it now stands, those 3 trees are big enough, and positioned so perfectly, that there is virtually no way that a 2nd shot from over there can be aimed so as to make the green reachable in regulation. If they ever die, especially the front one closest to the green, they/it really need to be replaced.
Mayday:
It was noted earlier on this thread that #6 isn't at all short and is always included with #'s 1-5 as part of Merion's "first act".
Frankly, I've thought the knock about #'s 7-13 has always been overdone and never more so than in the last 5 years since #9 has been lengthened to almost 190 yards from the new back tee and, especially, since #12 has been lengthened such that the tee shot must now carry 240+ yards to safely cross Cobbs Creek. Does that stretch seem underwhelming compared to the first six and the "Back Five"? Probably - but look what those holes are being compared TO.
Chipoat
Sorry for the late response!
Perhaps we have different ideas of what blind is. The 14th to me is not anything close to blind unless one defines blind as not seeing the green from the tee. The landing zone is clearly visible from the tee, and the green, while difficult to get a feel for from the fairway, isn't at all blind.
The 16th does have a blind drive unless one hits it further than I go for holidays! The approach can be blind, but it isn't the sort of shot I would call a "blind shot" because as you point out, a well placed drive earns a view of much of the green.
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Wayne
I am still going through Merion in my mind. One of the things which struck me was that there didn't seem to be THAT many bunkers on the course. Just out of curiosity, just exactly how many are there? Also, how many come in the first 4 holes? I may be wrong, but perhaps what seemed like a load of bunkers on the opening holes is why it didn't seem that there were loads on the rest of the course.
Ciao
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Sean,
From memory, I think there are 118 bunkers:
1. 13
2. 9
3. 5
4. 12
5. 5
6. 7
8. 5
9. 5
10. 5
11. 2 + 4 shared with 12
12. 2 + 4 shared with 11
13. 5
14. 7
15. 6
16. 13
17. 5
18. 4
I guess that's a lot of bunkers. Even though some are quite large, they don't overwhelm in the way that MacKenzie or Tillinghast bunkers tend to. Their placement is excellent and they don't interfere with ground movement and thus deflection as do the bunkers at Bethpage Black for instance. Merion bunkers, though in the original locations and considering today's technologies, are still very much in play and in some cases (cross bunker on 1) are even more meaningful today. This is the genius of the bunkering few discuss. How a bunker scheme can remain strategic and interesting 90 years later on some courses by design (Merion and Oakmont for example) or by nature/randomness (The Old Course) while other bunker designs become outmoded and others are overdone. I hope we can start a discussion on this on a new thread. It is a subject that has long interested me.
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Sean,
From memory, I think there are 118 bunkers:
1. 13
2. 9
3. 5
4. 12
5. 5
6. 7
8. 5
9. 5
10. 5
11. 2 + 4 shared with 12
12. 2 + 4 shared with 13
13. 5
14. 7
15. 6
16. 13
17. 5
18. 4
I guess that's a lot of bunkers. Even though some are quite large, they don't overwhelm in the way that MacKenzie or Tillinghast bunkers tend to. Their placement is excellent and they don't interfere with ground movement and thus deflection as do the bunkers at Bethpage Black for instance. Merion bunkers, though in the original locations and considering today's technologies, are still very much in play and in some cases (cross bunker on 1) are even more meaningful today. This is the genius of the bunkering few discuss. How a bunker scheme can remain strategic and interesting 90 years later on some courses by design (Merion and Oakmont for example) or by nature/randomness (The Old Course) while other bunker designs become outmoded and others are overdone. I hope we can start a discussion on this on a new thread. It is a subject that has long interested me.
Wayne
Cheers, that helps out a bit. So 1/3 of the bunkers come in the opening four holes. This is an interesting dynamic. Do you know of any reason how this came about?
I don't think the bunkering at Merion tends (though there are a few cases where I believe the bunkering does just this) to overwhelm the greens/fairways like Dr Mac can do is because so many bunkers are isolated from the ideal angles of play. It would be interesting to see a hole by hole evolution of the bunkering at Merion.
Ciao
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Wayne,
I am a little confused by the bunker numbers you have given. You say that 11 has 2 + 4 shared with 12 meaning that 12 has atleast 4 but you give 12 as having 2 + 4 shared with 13 leaving only two ways I can think of that this could be. Either 2 of the shared bunkers ar shared by all three holes or its a typo. I am hoping for the former.
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Having never been there, and only judging from pics and discussions on this site, Merion is probably the one course that I am most sure I would fall in love with after just one round. It seems to exude everything that I'd want in a golf course and club experience. Thanks for sharing the photos!
-Ted
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Jon,
Typo. I meant that 12 has 2 + 4 shared with 11. Sorry for the confusion. :-\
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Wayne:
Off the top of my head I'd have said Merion East had about 100-110 bunkers. That's quite a lot for a course of that age not on sandy soil. My course probably has about 70 and perhaps it was a bit more by Ross if one considers all those "top shot" bunkers that're all gone now.
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Jon,
Typo. I meant that 12 has 2 + 4 shared with 11. Sorry for the confusion. :-\
Thanks for clearing that up Wayne. I was hoping it wasn't as I could not figure out how it would be possible and so hoped for a new wow moment. Maybe this is a new way for developers to create headlines. Imagine it a golf course with say four quadruple greens and each bunker sharde by atleast 3 holes. Now thats a challenge for a GCA ;)
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I'm hearing that fairway lines are being adjusted to fall into the bunkers, along with some creek banks. If you look at the recent google maps aerials, they're is some major fairways contouring that was being adjusted this fall
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Does anyone know what plant that is growing in the bunker on no.14 with the yellow flower?
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Stephen,
I believe it is Scotch Broom.
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There was a show this week on Comcast in Philly, Inside Golf. Much of the show was devoted to the maintenance shed at Merion, and their tools. Very neat. The last minutes of the segment covered the course changes for the open. It looked to have been filmed around a month ago. The fairway on #2 has been moved in around 15 yards from the left, forcing players to aim more toward the out of bounds. I think it takes driver away for many, even though not that many drivers would have been in play. The fairway on #11 has been moved way to the left, over near the creek. very different angle for a tee shot. The new tee on #14 has been discussed here before, and the Stop sign will be removed for the open. There was a minor fairway shift on #18 and the rough over the quarry has been cut back, extending the view of the fairway back in view of the tee. The change that I found interesting was at #5. I always thought that to be the hardest hole I have ever played, with the slope, the difficulty of the green, and the creek in play on every shot. The rough on the left side of the fairway is gone. The fairway is cut right into the bunkers so anything heading that way will roll in. But there is also nothing to stop the ball from going into the creek. This is going to be nasty. The play off the tee there is to be as far left off the tee as you can, and I am not sure that is an option now. And when you play away from the creek you increase the slope causing more of a hook toward the creek on the second shot. The rough to the left of the fairway on #11 is gone as well, bringing the creek more into play. It looks like the graduated rough setup is being shelved in at least a few places. Might be very interesting.
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There was a show this week on Comcast in Philly, Inside Golf. Much of the show was devoted to the maintenance shed at Merion, and their tools. Very neat. The last minutes of the segment covered the course changes for the open. It looked to have been filmed around a month ago. The fairway on #2 has been moved in around 15 yards from the left, forcing players to aim more toward the out of bounds. I think it takes driver away for many, even though not that many drivers would have been in play. The fairway on #11 has been moved way to the left, over near the creek. very different angle for a tee shot. The new tee on #14 has been discussed here before, and the Stop sign will be removed for the open. There was a minor fairway shift on #18 and the rough over the quarry has been cut back, extending the view of the fairway back in view of the tee. The change that I found interesting was at #5. I always thought that to be the hardest hole I have ever played, with the slope, the difficulty of the green, and the creek in play on every shot. The rough on the left side of the fairway is gone. The fairway is cut right into the bunkers so anything heading that way will roll in. But there is also nothing to stop the ball from going into the creek. This is going to be nasty. The play off the tee there is to be as far left off the tee as you can, and I am not sure that is an option now. And when you play away from the creek you increase the slope causing more of a hook toward the creek on the second shot. The rough to the left of the fairway on #11 is gone as well, bringing the creek more into play. It looks like the graduated rough setup is being shelved in at least a few places. Might be very interesting.
You can watch the show online here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWiApvqqAS0&feature=youtu.be&a
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Great video, thanks for sharing. No two ways about it those new rough lines look terrible, even to someone who has only seen pictures of the course.
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During the 2009 Walker Cup at Merion, the USGA was playing the 3rd hole from the back of the 7th Tee. Looked like about 240 yards !!
The USGA execs included David Fay were camped out watching the players go through.
Curious to see if they play the 3rd from the 7th tee during the Open as well.
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Looked like about 240 yards !!
I think that tee plays between about 245 all the way to 275 yards.
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Bill - I doubt it. IIRC, at Muccifest last year, Mike Davis said #3 wouldn't be played from #7's tee for the open.
But it was pretty darn amazing to see Fowler hit (I think) a 5 wood to the green from there.
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I think you guys are talking about #3 being played from the back of #6 tee, not #7.
Bill - I doubt it. IIRC, at Muccifest last year, Mike Davis said #3 wouldn't be played from #7's tee for the open.
But it was pretty darn amazing to see Fowler hit (I think) a 5 wood to the green from there.
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I think you guys are talking about #3 being played from the back of #6 tee, not #7.
Bill - I doubt it. IIRC, at Muccifest last year, Mike Davis said #3 wouldn't be played from #7's tee for the open.
But it was pretty darn amazing to see Fowler hit (I think) a 5 wood to the green from there.
Good pick-up Bill.
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In addition to some of the changes they highlighted on that show, the first fairway was narrowed, 40 yards was added to #4, fairway narrowed on #7, fairway shifted and narrowed on #8, new left tees built/rebuilt on #9, total redo of the 12th green, new bunkers on the right of the drive zone on #15, new addition to the 15th green on the front left (created a little plateau). Fairway narrowed on #16 with a new fairway bunker added on the left side.
Having had the opportunity to play Merion many times over the past 15 years, I'm actually surprised with how much they've changed the course in preparation for the 2013 Open. What's odd is that compared to years ago, quite a few of the preferred lines off the tees are now covered on rough. My preferred lines on holes 2, 6, 7, 8, 11, 14, 15 would now leave me in the rough on all these tee shots.
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Jamie,
How did 12 green turn out?
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Jamie,
How did 12 green turn out?
Sean,
I know my opinion doesn't count for much but it seemed a bit out of character upon first impression. Perhaps an expert in the field would disagree but I didn't see a continuity to the redesign compared to the rest of the greens on the course. It's hard to describe in words here but I'll try...
I consider many of the original greens at Merion to be some of the very best designed greens in the world. They all have some great slope and contour but on a larger scale. The new 12th seems to have a lot of subtle stuff going on in the green that you don't find elsewhere on the course. Does that make sense?
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Jamie,
Sure does. Disappointing. I was hoping that it would be changed just enough to give it more locations at the higher speed (raising the front a bit). Sounds like a redo where they may have tried too hard to inject character where it wasn't needed.
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Jamie,
Sure does. Disappointing. I was hoping that it would be changed just enough to give it more locations at the higher speed (raising the front a bit). Sounds like a redo where they may have tried too hard to inject character where it wasn't needed.
I understand. Once the club was awarded the Open I knew this green wouldn't remain as it was. Like you, I was hoping for the smallest change possible. The work done is certainly more than a subtle change.
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Jamie,
How did 12 green turn out?
Sean,
I know my opinion doesn't count for much but it seemed a bit out of character upon first impression. Perhaps an expert in the field would disagree but I didn't see a continuity to the redesign compared to the rest of the greens on the course. It's hard to describe in words here but I'll try...
I consider many of the original greens at Merion to be some of the very best designed greens in the world. They all have some great slope and contour but on a larger scale. The new 12th seems to have a lot of subtle stuff going on in the green that you don't find elsewhere on the course. Does that make sense?
Jamie,
That's unfortunate.
Historically, every time Merion hosts an Open and narrows/alters their fairways, they never get returned to their Pre-Open configuration.
Unfortunately, that seems to be true for every course hosting the Open
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Jamie,
Sure does. Disappointing. I was hoping that it would be changed just enough to give it more locations at the higher speed (raising the front a bit). Sounds like a redo where they may have tried too hard to inject character where it wasn't needed.
Jamie,
Did you notice a similar pattern on the 15th green?
Mark
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Jamie,
Sure does. Disappointing. I was hoping that it would be changed just enough to give it more locations at the higher speed (raising the front a bit). Sounds like a redo where they may have tried too hard to inject character where it wasn't needed.
Jamie,
Did you notice a similar pattern on the 15th green?
Mark
Mark,
No. The 15th green remains largely untouched except for the front left portion of the green. They created a smallish plateau area there and left the rest of the green alone. To my eye, the new area looked a bit out of place and didn't tie in as seamlessly as I would've hoped with the surrounds and the existing green. Perhaps there will be some tweaking of that spot but I don't know.
As I've said many times over the years, Merion is one of my favorite places. It's such a great course and always has been. That is why I'm surprised how much has changed in prep for the US Open. I suppose advancing technology is to blame but it's a shame that such a classic venue just can't host it with what was already in place. We were talking about the approach shots of the tour players that will be competing next year and I figured that there will be short iron/wedge approaches on holes 1, 2, 4, 7, 8, 10, 11, 12, 13 and possibly short-mid irons on 15 & 16. That's a lot of short shots for guys of that talent level.
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Thanks for the update Jamie. Glad that 15 wasn't altered too much.
Mark
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I looked up this blast from the past in the hope that folks might tell me how Merion is doing these days. Reading the tour I notice three things. First, I mention the importance of interior views a few times. I didn't realize I was thinking about that stuff back then. Second and related, a lot more trees could be removed in the name of aesthetics. Third, 9 years later and I still have not played a better course than Merion! Anyway, updates are much appreciated!
Ciao
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I drive by it often. The high grass at the back of the bunkers is outrageous.
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Rumor has it that the course is in goid hands and there may be some changes afoot.
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Mike - That grass around the bunkers make it almost a water hazard once in it! I also heard chatter about some additional investment in conditioning. It's an amazing test of golf and I'm always impressed with the challenge presented during any round I've ever played there.
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"Additional investment in conditioning"?
What could this possibly mean at a place like Merion?
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"Additional investment in conditioning"?
What could this possibly mean at a place like Merion?
+1
What else could they possibly do?
Toured the maintenance "barn" and brought back photos for our Superintendent. He still thinks they were photoshopped.
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Merion blew me away. I mean, blew me away. I knew it would be good...but wasn't ready for what it was.
Best short par 4's in the world?
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And 2 or 3 of the best long par 4's in the world as well.
My point was simply that, good or bad, they've had pretty much an unlimited budget for the golf course.
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I would put 5 and 18 in with any long par 4's I've played.
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"Additional investment in conditioning"?
What could this possibly mean at a place like Merion?
+1
What else could they possibly do?
Toured the maintenance "barn" and brought back photos for our Superintendent. He still thinks they were photoshopped.
SubAir?
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Rumor has it that the course is in goid hands and there may be some changes afoot.
I've heard the same things. This week, actually.
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The longtime super retired prior to the 2016 season and moved to Palm Beach. 2016 was a rough maintenance year for the Merion staff to adapt in his absence and the course struggled a little. 2017 they brought the retired super back for consultant work (putting him up in a dorm) and the conditions have never been better. He knows the turf better than anyone and the turf listens to him ;D . I have not been informed of SubAir but who knows, it could happen someday.
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Anton, are you certain of those dates? Press reports (and here) had Matt retiring this winter/spring.
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100% :)
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Good Afternoon Gents. Sadly I do not post much on here but I read and look often. Knowing Merion intimately as I do. The golf course was in great hands and now with the new Director of Agronomy that started in late March it continues to be in great hands. The changes there from an an Agronomic perspective will continue to improve for sure. Also the retired Director of Agronomy still helps out a couple days a week to stay busy. Will he move to Florida, ahh maybe one day but he is still very much in Pennsylvania and never was in the intern dormitory set-up. The gentleman that did move to Palm Beach was their long term course set-up guy that was a former superintendent at another Philly club and he has since come back. Sorry to come across the way I did I just wanted to clear up the inaccuracies posted above. Excited to see what Merion does with their renovations and they can not have a better Director of Agronomy to see it through.
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Well I have heard 12-15 mil on a complete redo. All greens come up and are regrassed as is most of the course. The Sub Air I saw mentioned will be some new system that almost sounds like a heat pump? The ability to heat and cool the greens as needed. One person mentioned the 11th green would be raised 18-36 inches to try to make it less exposed to high water.
It seems almost like a done deal. The members I have spoken too are suspect if the greens will ever have the same feel and character as the current ones, and I think that is a very valid concern. Pushing up 11 will just kill the look of the hole IMHO.
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Thanks Jason, matches my understanding.
Who knew there was a dedicated role of tee and hole placement?
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Ed,
I was typing as you were.
It's certainly an interesting decision. Hope for the best!
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I would put 5 and 18 in with any long par 4's I've played.
they are great par fives too.
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Yes...which is what makes a great long par four IMO.
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I would put 5 and 18 in with any long par 4's I've played.
they are great par fives too.
Maybe I missed something, but the 18th didn't do a lot for me...its a long, hard hole with little charm. I don't remember the 5th being a long 4...long enough for sure...but nowhere near a slog.
Ciao
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I would put 5 and 18 in with any long par 4's I've played.
they are great par fives too.
Then you fine Sir are a much better player than me, as are most folks. I got to rate the course and played 5 & 18 from the back tees, it was no fun at all.
Maybe I missed something, but the 18th didn't do a lot for me...its a long, hard hole with little charm. I don't remember the 5th being a long 4...long enough for sure...but nowhere near a slog.
Ciao