Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Dan Herrmann on April 25, 2008, 08:42:23 AM
-
A week or so ago, I read a post where somebody mentioned the concept of bunkers on the outside corner of a dogleg. It got me thinking about whether these type of bunkers offered anything to a hole's character, because they're certainly uncommon.
Why would an architect put a bunker on the OUTSIDE of a dogleg.
My thoughts then went to Merion East #1, a great starting hole. A dogleg to the right, and not terribly long. But a shot the the left side of the fairway can leave a great angle for the approach - So there are two lonely bunkers out there to the left ready to capture the unsuspecting golfer's ball.
It's a great feature, and I propose that the outside corner bunker should be more prevalent, especially on short par 4's.
-
Dan,
So long as the bunkers are placed there as a hazard (and not as a safety buffer) they would be a great way to test your distance control.
Bunkers on the inside corner should test your distance potential (can you clear it?), and bunkers on the outside...when the outside is the preferred angle of approach...should challenge your ability to run the ball up close to it, but not quite in it.
-
We have several bunkers on outsides of doglegs. Several are placed to prevent balls from unfairly going OB on a tight boundary or from rolling into an area deemed unfair, another is placed to inhibit players from hitting their ball way wide, giving them an easier shot to the green. In the case of the second bunker, technology has rendered it useless for those it was intended to effect.
Longer players now just blow the ball over the bunker into the open area. We are now struggling with how to provide a penalty for this line of play. Long grass, a tree, or moving the bunker?
-
Ran's recent review of Mid Ocean mentions exactly what JES is talking about.
-
James S,
What if the bunker not only prevented a shot from getting lost or going O.B., but the lip was high enough where a player couldn't try to reach the green with his next shot. Theorectically penalizing him a shot.
Would you consider that acceptable?
-
As a left-hander who slices the ball I would be bound to notice these on left-to-right dog-legs, and I can think of very few examples of which I have fallen foul. I am unlkely to be aware of those on the outside of a right-to-left dog-leg unless I have driven so badly that they affect my second shot, or I am playing from a very forward tee.
However, TOC has a few such as the Coffins to the left of the 13th and the Beardies on the 14th. There's one on the outside of the excellent 5th at Royal County Down, but it is of no concern to today's long hitters. There's a great horse-shoe affair on the outside of the dog-leg on the 1st at Muirfield, but I doubt if it is any longer significant in top class golf. There are good examples on the outsides of the 10th and 12th at Royal Liverpool (Open Championship 12th and 14th), Royal Troon has them at the 7th (no longer relevant to those big hitters) and the 9th (probably still relevant). There are excellent ones at Royal Dornoch, such as on the 4th and 5th, about which Rihc will be better placed to comment than I. Turnberry's 8th and 13th, I think, qualify, as well.
Despite its huge number of bunkers, I don't think Lytham has any notable examples. Birkdale has them on the outside of the 10th and 11th. Ganton has a number, of which that on the left of the 7th fairway was very much in play during the recent Walker Cup played there. Royal Porthcawl has a few, such as the 6th and 9th.
What is so relevant to these particular examples, however, is that they are all fast-running links courses on which it is difficult to predict the length of a drive, given uncertain behaviour on landing. I am sure such bunkers have a very different kind of function on a lush inland course.
-
Dan:
When we were doing the planning for the Stadium Course at PGA West, I drew a bunker on the far side of the dogleg at the par-4 ninth hole ... which I had based on the fifth at Royal County Down. (It didn't wind up that way :) ) At any rate, Pete Dye told me that he would never do that. His reasoning was that good players always know the exact distance to the bunker and would never get in it. They just use it as an aiming reference ... they would either aim right at it (if they couldn't get there) or aim off to the side if they could reach it.
Pete hated giving good players anything to aim at. He cut down a huge old oak tree on the 14th at Crooked Stick just because it might help somebody.
I never say never ... there are some instances where a bunker through the fairway may add to the strategy. The first at Merion is a great example. But, as a general rule, I think Pete is right.
-
So long as the bunkers are placed there as a hazard (and not as a safety buffer) they would be a great way to test your distance control.
I'd add one more caveat. So long as they are not for framing purposes.
The first at Sand Hills has a couple on the outside. They work quite well. But, the one on the inside of the leg, is the one that get's into the golfer's mind.
-
Thanks for all the great replies!
-
The one place I see them as being an excellent strategic addition is on dogleg holes that encourage people to attemot cutting the corner, especially over trees.
A well-placed bunker is lying in wait for the long hitter who attempts the carry but chickens out at the last minute and doesn't cut off enough.
It does give the weaker player a target to hit at, but that's not a problem in my mind.
Ken
-
I've heard it said that not every dogleg hole should have a bunker on the inside (boring/repetitive design) and that maybe a bunker on the outside would work better with the strategy at the green.
-
Mark R
Great call on Ganton 7!
I think the play is to get out right near that bunker for a decent angle into that amazing MacKenzie green, yes?
So you have to challenge that bunker, yet for some reason I find it more of an indirect challenge when compared to the obvious directness of an inside dogleg bunker. There's no immediate penalty for choosing not to challenge that bunker.
Nor, unlike playing away from an inside dogleg bunker, is the penalty obvious: its possible to have the same club into that green; a one-club disadvantage is probably the highest realistic penalty, which on the surface should not phase the golfer as the green is enormous.
12 Ganton is possibly the same animal yet sporting different markings. The aggressive play is over that increasingly sad tree inside the dogleg. But then if you decide to play it safe and brainlessly whack one out to the far corner of the dogleg, ie play the equivalent of a passive aggressive shot when you should be thinking out a genuine passive shot, you run into beastly gorse.
On top of that, isn't there a bunker guarding the next-least passive-aggressive line, ie closer to the outside of the dogleg? So that the golfer, through the use of inside and outside dogleg hazards including bunkers but ultimately a diverse lot including water, trees, bushes and gorse, must weigh not simply his aggression but also the degree of conservatism he is willing to bear.
To JES's point then sort of a driving regulator but across a breadth far wider than your typical inside - outside bunker combo.
And to fit these two holes into the larger context of the full 18, the pressure on the driver is felt from different angles, so to speak, but constantly, so that the overall effect is one of a vise turning inexorably until the golfer realizes that on this course the question of catastrophic driver failure becomes a matter of where and when rather than if.
Fantastic!
Mark
-
James S,
What if the bunker not only prevented a shot from getting lost or going O.B., but the lip was high enough where a player couldn't try to reach the green with his next shot. Theorectically penalizing him a shot.
Would you consider that acceptable?
Michael B,
I think just about anything is acceptable on a golf course...except soft ground during a dry spell...so that would be fine by me to make a bunker equal about a stroke penalty as opposed to the stroke and distance of a lost ball. Maybe that bunker could be more effective by not having any rakes around.
-
Dan,
How about #12 at Merion (is that the alps hole or the cape?)?
The ground is a little funny, but those left side bunkers are in a pretty good spot to get a player to pick a yardage and try to hit it that yardage for the best shot into the green.
-
I can think of a couple of examples of courses I have played that have bunkers on the outside of a dogleg. Both place bunkers on the outside of the dogleg for good, solid strategic reasons: to open up the shot to the green.
The 14th hole at Roddy Ranch in NorCal, par 4: the hole doglegs subtley from right to left. The topography of the fairway is very intersting, rolling and crashing its way first uphill, the tumbling back down to the left. On the right outside corner sit two large fairway bunkers.
Since the hole doglegs left, one's first instinct is to try to shorten the hole by aiming at the inside of the dogleg. But the green itself sits on a bluff. A water hazard lies to the left of the green, down a steep slope. The green is canted from right to left in the front portion. A ridge runs through the green at about a 45-degree angle, separating it into two distinct portions. The back of the green is also canted dramatically right-to-left AND runs away from the golfer. No shot to this green could be described as easy, and it fact it is quite a frightening shot.
Since the green is best approached from the center or right-center of the fairway, and the fairway slopes dramatically from right to left, the placement of those fairway bunkers is perfect. The only way to get a tee shot to stay in the right center of the fairway, is to play directly at those bunkers or slightly inside them. A draw will then catch the slopes and trundle its way down the hill, both shortening the second shot and providing the optimal line to attack the green. A fade will provide an even better angle of attack, but is riskier. A fade that lands too softly will stay up on the top of the hill, leaving a very long approach shot.
If you play down the left side of the fairway you not only run the risk of overdoing it and ending up in some horrendous lie with the ball well above your feet, but the extreme left side of the fairway makes all shots difficult, especially so to a back left hole position. It is a wonderful design on a terrific golf course and a great use of bunkers on the outside of a dogleg.
The second example is the 14th hole at Mid Ocean Club in Bermuda, a course I've been fortunate to play many times. Ran's profile describes it well. The hole doglegs from left-to-right and the cluster of fairway bunkers is on the outside of the dogleg left for reasons that become apparent quickly as you approach the green:
"Fourteenth hole, 355 yards, Leven; Macdonald borrowed a design concept from the original seventh hole at Leven Golf Club in Scotland when he built the famous seventeenth at National Golf Links of America, long considered one of the best medium length par four holes in American golf. Similarly here, Macdonald created an arresting bunker complex down the left of the fairway and another stunning one at the green’s right front. The time-honored challenge is evident: flirt with the bunkers and drive the ball long left to be rewarded with a clear view of the green. As one shies away to the right, he is forced to accept a forced carry over the deep greenside bunker."
-
#2 at Augusta
-
Dan:
When we were doing the planning for the Stadium Course at PGA West, I drew a bunker on the far side of the dogleg at the par-4 ninth hole ... which I had based on the fifth at Royal County Down. (It didn't wind up that way :) ) At any rate, Pete Dye told me that he would never do that. His reasoning was that good players always know the exact distance to the bunker and would never get in it. They just use it as an aiming reference ... they would either aim right at it (if they couldn't get there) or aim off to the side if they could reach it.
Pete hated giving good players anything to aim at. He cut down a huge old oak tree on the 14th at Crooked Stick just because it might help somebody.
I never say never ... there are some instances where a bunker through the fairway may add to the strategy. The first at Merion is a great example. But, as a general rule, I think Pete is right.
Tom - I understand your comments, but there is one thing that really leaves me scratching my head. I mentioned this several months ago and never got a sufficient response that I recall.
Why is is that these "Strong" players can aim at a bunker and use that for alignment but they can't pick out a spot in the fairway and do the same? I don't understand how a bunker or a tree makes the hole easier. I can't remember playing a hole EVER where I couldnt find something to aim at. It might be a small patch of grass or something else, but unless I'm playing in complete fog or pitch dark night, I can find a way to ai mat something. Now - executing is a different story.
Why are good players so easily confused by the lack of something to frame a shot, or is this a complete myth?
-
Dan:
When we were doing the planning for the Stadium Course at PGA West, I drew a bunker on the far side of the dogleg at the par-4 ninth hole ... which I had based on the fifth at Royal County Down. (It didn't wind up that way :) ) At any rate, Pete Dye told me that he would never do that. His reasoning was that good players always know the exact distance to the bunker and would never get in it. They just use it as an aiming reference ... they would either aim right at it (if they couldn't get there) or aim off to the side if they could reach it.
Pete hated giving good players anything to aim at. He cut down a huge old oak tree on the 14th at Crooked Stick just because it might help somebody.
I never say never ... there are some instances where a bunker through the fairway may add to the strategy. The first at Merion is a great example. But, as a general rule, I think Pete is right.
Tom,
What about the 3rd at Barnbougle?
Would you consider that hole a dogleg or not? If so, do you think the bunkers on the left are on the outside of the dogleg?
The shape of the hole is not quite a traditional dogleg shape, and technically the bunkers are just past the 'corner' of the dogleg. It certainly does give an aiming or refrence point off the tee though.
If these bunkers can be considered to be on the outside of a dogleg then it definitely can work, because it is an amazing golf hole.
-
Rich,
That tee shot at 3 is quite blind - you can't see what the hole is doing or the landing area and those out-of- play bunkers - for the tee shot anyway - are a reference point to aim at.
I guess you could say the bunkers at the 14th are also on the outside of the tee shot but again that shot is semi-blind at least.
-
Here is a very curious bunkering system to the outside of the dogleg. I think there is a quite clever psycho trick going on here. I know I stood on this tee and thought there is no way I am bouncing one into the road or into one of the grand houses. I aimed closer to the bunkers to avoid doing just that. In fact, I think the tree and rough are decent protectors of the property, but its a visual thing when you realize there are no man made boundaries.
By the by, I wonder when these bunkers were put in. Seeing them from the side shows how bizarre they really are. In effect, they are pop up bunkers that stick out like a sore thumb - no attempt was made to blend these babies in.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/100_3570.jpg?t=1210700943)
Ciao
-
Sean,
Thanks for posting that picture. They do stand out in the lineup. :-\
Where is this?
Do the bunkers serve any strategic purpose - is there some advantage to being near them?
-
Sean,
Thanks for posting that picture. They do stand out in the lineup. :-\
Where is this?
Do the bunkers serve any strategic purpose - is there some advantage to being near them?
John
Its the 14th at Merion. They don't serve any purpose other than to catch out the overly prudent player. The best angle into the green is from the left of the fairway. I didn't walk over there, but I suspect, the angle is even better from the rough, but obviously the road needs some protection.
Ciao
-
While the short ones on the right at Merion might be a little out of play, the longest one does ask for distance control, as would any hazards on both sides of an angled fw. I often see these backing up "Cape" type holes for similarl purposes.
The other strategic possibility for bunkers on the outside of the DL would be when there is a very strong - pond or tree - hazard on the inside edge of the green.
Isn't Riviera 3 a hole where you have to carry the outside bunker to avoid carrying the inside green bunker to a shallow green? It may not be far enough to be as effective as it once was.
-
While the short ones on the right at Merion might be a little out of play, the longest one does ask for distance control, as would any hazards on both sides of an angled fw. I often see these backing up "Cape" type holes for similarl purposes.
The other strategic possibility for bunkers on the outside of the DL would be when there is a very strong - pond or tree - hazard on the inside edge of the green.
Isn't Riviera 3 a hole where you have to carry the outside bunker to avoid carrying the inside green bunker to a shallow green? It may not be far enough to be as effective as it once was.
Jeff
The photo is deceiving. I think the second bunker on the right is about 230-240 to reach it. Its certainly in play for the likes of me.
Ciao
-
Those bunkers on #14 at Merion are a huge part of the strategy of the hole! The left rough is usually unplayable - to be avoided at any cost - not to mention the out of bounds if you pull the tee shot. Without those bunkers, one could blow the ball out to the right; guarantee a bogey; and give yourself a reasonable shot at par. With them, the tee shot must be absolutely precise, or you're screwed.
-
Jim,
Then maybe thats penal architecture and not strategic?
-
Jim,
Then maybe thats penal architecture and not strategic?
Jeff
You are right, it is a penal hole with the minor aspect of strategy to get the ball close to the left rough for the best angle which also means a tree further up on the right doesn't have to be dealt with.
It would be interesting to see the hole with a widened fairway to the right and the first two bunker gone. If a player bailed right he still has to go over a tree and/or bunker protecting the rights side. The green is also not all that receptive from this angle either.
Ciao
Ciao
-
Is "penal" just another word for "difficult," and "strategic" just another word for "forgiving?"
-
Jim,
I don't think so. I didn't know how the trees further up came into play. I think Sean and I, using hockey terms, would call that a "delayed penalty" but its not so forgiving.
I still recall the article by Wind where he said purists believed that one green side hazard is all thats really needed to set up strategy. With a tree somewhat blocking the green, you can play safe to the right on the tee shot, but then must aim at OB and cut around it on the second.
You pay me now or you pay me later. Its just that the second payment doesn't have to come from a bunker in strategic design.
-
As John Sheehan mentioned in his post above, I think bunkers on the outside of a dogleg can be very strategic when the green is angled properly so that you have to challenge the bunkers to have the easier aproach to the green. The short par 4 15th at my home course works this way. The dogleg is L-R with the bunkers on the left (outside of the dogleg). The very small green is angled like this with bunkers on both sides: o/o so one needs to challenge the outside bunkers on the left side of the fairway to have a clear angle to the opening in the green. It works very well.
-
Jim,
I don't think so. I didn't know how the trees further up came into play. I think Sean and I, using hockey terms, would call that a "delayed penalty" but its not so forgiving.
I still recall the article by Wind where he said purists believed that one green side hazard is all thats really needed to set up strategy. With a tree somewhat blocking the green, you can play safe to the right on the tee shot, but then must aim at OB and cut around it on the second.
You pay me now or you pay me later. Its just that the second payment doesn't have to come from a bunker in strategic design.
Here are the trees in question. From where I was just outside the second right bunker the trees were definitely blocking my ideal line/ball flight.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/100_3572.jpg?t=1210701010)
Here is the bunker guarding the right corner of the green. The high spot left of the green used to be a bunker.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/100_3573.jpg?t=1210701135)
I think there is a decent amount of space to play the hole as is, but it could be opened up a bit to allow a bit more space off the tee with the delayed penalty in mind.
Ciao
Ciao
-
As John Sheehan mentioned in his post above, I think bunkers on the outside of a dogleg can be very strategic when the green is angled properly so that you have to challenge the bunkers to have the easier aproach to the green. The short par 4 15th at my home course works this way. The dogleg is L-R with the bunkers on the left (outside of the dogleg). The very small green is angled like this with bunkers on both sides: o/o so one needs to challenge the outside bunkers on the left side of the fairway to have a clear angle to the opening in the green. It works very well.
Doug hit the nail on the head with this one.
A dogleg hole with this type of situated and sloped green would be the perfect reason to have a bunker on the outside corner.
I can also think of how this scenario could make a hole play easier, and that is if there is OB just beyond the corner. The bunker would catch and save many shots that would be OB otherwise.
-
The 5th hole at Riverfront has a bunker at the outside of a dogleg left. The hole is a shortish par 4 and the bunker guards the only area of fairway with an open shot at the green regardless of pin position. It is an aiming point from the white tees, but not the blue tess which are situated on a different angle that makes the hole almost straight away.
-
Bunkers should, ideally, be wherever they tempt — especially the better, more skilled player. Regardless of the inside or outside, the more seasoned player will be thinking ahead. A bunker on the outside would ideally lure a player close to it to gain an advantage on the next shot.
-
Our first hole is a 360 yard par 4 with a 90-degree left dogleg. The perfect drive lands on the 100 yd plate in the middle of the fairway. The inside of the dogleg is guarded with rough, woods and a bad angle. The outside is guarded by one bunker, streching from 120-150 yards from the green, with minimal front lip.
It's essentially a saving bunker, as OB is another 20 yards past and balls would roll-out there unless the rough were pretty heavy. If you're in the bunder it's "only" a 150 yard max shot to the center of the green, not even a 1/2 shot penalty.
Given this is the first hole of the course (and our #18 handicap) I don't mind the bunker, nothing wrong with a gentle start. But if this hole was later in the round I wouldn't be as forgiving.
-
Our first hole is a 360 yard par 4 with a 90-degree left dogleg. The perfect drive lands on the 100 yd plate in the middle of the fairway. The inside of the dogleg is guarded with rough, woods and a bad angle. The outside is guarded by one bunker, streching from 120-150 yards from the green, with minimal front lip.
It's essentially a saving bunker, as OB is another 20 yards past and balls would roll-out there unless the rough were pretty heavy. If you're in the bunder it's "only" a 150 yard max shot to the center of the green, not even a 1/2 shot penalty.
Given this is the first hole of the course (and our #18 handicap) I don't mind the bunker, nothing wrong with a gentle start. But if this hole was later in the round I wouldn't be as forgiving.
Matt,
Is there any advantage at all to being on a line directly between that bunker and the hole? Does the green open up on the right side? When you say that you, "wouldn't be as forgiving" if the hole came later in the sequence do you mean that you don't mind that the bunker is of little strategic importance, or that it is so forgiving itself?