Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: CJ Carder on March 20, 2008, 10:19:27 PM
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I'm headed up to Manhattan for a conference in May and will likely have a Sunday or Saturday afternoon free to get some golf in. Unfortunately, I'll be there all by myself and relying on public transportation to get anywhere I want to go.
Can you northeast gentlemen give me any idea on what I'm looking at in terms of decent playing options?
Obviously I could try and get out to Long Island and play Bethpage Black, but I'm not going to be able to sleep in any cars or anything and would prefer to have some plans set before I head up that way anyway.
I've done a small bit of research but it seems like the public courses websites either aren't very descriptive or do not exactly promote excitement about playing the course.
Any help would be very much appreciated. Thanks!
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Unless you've seen everything there is to see in the Big Apple - and assuming you can't get on one of the famous courses - I just can't imagine that playing golf is the best thing to do with a free day in Manhattan.
That said, I don't have much to offer as far as suggestions for courses. Maybe spend an hour at Chelsea Piers if you haven't already?
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I got onto Black twice in two days in 2002 (months after the Open) without sleeping in cars.
There is a telephone call in system. The day/evening before you want to play, just get the number and keep calling. It's an automated system and it'll tell you that there are no tee times. At some point someone is bound to cancel a tee time and you'll be there waiting! It worked for me.
Plus while Black is great, there are numerous other fine courses at Bethpage, too.
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I got onto Black twice in two days in 2002 (months after the Open) without sleeping in cars.
There is a telephone call in system. The day/evening before you want to play, just get the number and keep calling. It's an automated system and it'll tell you that there are no tee times. At some point someone is bound to cancel a tee time and you'll be there waiting! It worked for me.
Plus while Black is great, there are numerous other fine courses at Bethpage, too.
I haven't had the privilege of playing any of the Bethpage courses, but Robert Ball here would agree with Jason's comments. He loved the Red and I think enjoyed it more than the Black.
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Unless you've seen everything there is to see in the Big Apple - and assuming you can't get on one of the famous courses - I just can't imagine that playing golf is the best thing to do with a free day in Manhattan.
Agree with Matt.
CJ, are you really thinking of shlepping your clubs to NYC, then "relying on public transportation" to get to a golf course...and back?
I don't get it. Why not plant yourself in a room with a view of the passersby and see how many short skirts you can count?
Even in May, one of these bars looks like fun http://nymag.com/nightlife/barbuzz/44792/
Then there's always the Met--the walk up 5th Avenue to get there might be better than the Museum
http://www.metmuseum.org/visitor/index.asp?HomePageLink=visitor_l
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I agree with the others thoughts, too.
Manhattan is a wonderful place. If you can't get on Black and don't have a friend at Shinny, there's plenty of fun to be had in the city. Just take a stroll from Battery Park to Central Park with your thoughts and breathe in the city.
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I have a similar dilemma to CJ Carder,
I will be in Manhattan from the 13-20 of April.
Whilst I am in no doubt that I could happily entertain myself for 7 days in NY without playing golf, being from Australia, it will be a long time before I have a chance to play a Ross, Tillinghast, Raynor (or for that matter Fazio) course again. Therefor I am quite willing to make a few day trips to see examples of these guys work.
So if I could expand, slightly, if there were any recommendations on where to see accessible examples of these guys work, they would be most appreciated.
Is Yale, for example, close enough for a day trip? I am also not planning on having a car, and travelling mainly by train.
Can I expect most courses to be open at this time of year?
Thanks.
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CJ & David,
I played Bethpage Red at the urging of a member of this discussion group and enjoyed every hole. The par 4 13th has one of my favorite centerline bunkers. The course is well maintained, it's an easy walk, several design features are intact and it never requires waiting in the car queue.
Closer to Manhatten, the Eisenhower Park courses (Devereux Emmet) are also worth checking out.
Yale is a special place, certainly worthy of a day trip IMO. It's an hour and a half drive from Manhatten.
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I completely understand that there's a lot to see and do in Manhattan. I've been to the city twice before and seen most of the touristy stuff (Empire State Building, Central Park, etc) - perhaps the only thing I would be interested to see that's not golf related is make a trip down to Ground Zero since the last time I was there was probably in 1996 or so.
That being said, I don't get up to NY that often and so if being there this time gives me a chance to play Bethpage or something else, then I'd be all over it. :)
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David,
I know at least one course you can get to by train. Shinnecock. I would try contacting the superintendent and ask about walking the course if possible.
There also must be courses you can get to in NJ relatively easily I would imagine, but I haven't done it. I would try to get to The Knoll. It is open to the public and would be a good intro to the Raynor/Banks look.
As for golf, with the winter most areas have been having I would imagine it is sketchy. The locals will be able to help with that.
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Gentlemen,
I golfed with David last year on my trip to Australia and he is a great guy. He is not seeking access and would love to have the chance to see some of the wealth of courses in your area.
Sorry for the threadjack CJ.
I don't know the logistics train-wise, but Plainfield would certainly be one of the best Ross options to check out in that area. Some really great people there, and I would imagine a polite request would allow you to walk the course.
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If playing during the week, The Knoll (West) in NJ is a good option. Not sure about he conditions, but Split Rock GC at Pelham Bay Park is a very good John Van Kleek course.
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Van Cortlandt Park is a beautiful old course, extremely well-maintained these days. only problem is the last four holes really pretty much demand you ride a cart.
way out in Brooklyn, Dyker Beach is a neat old course. Split Rock in the Bronx is very good and probably the toughest test.
none of them rival Bethpage, but they are excellent public courses nonetheless.
get yer inside scoop here:
http://www.ray-field.com/Golf_and_the_City.pdf
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If playing during the week, The Knoll (West) in NJ is a good option. Not sure about he conditions, but Split Rock GC at Pelham Bay Park is a very good John Van Kleek course.
Chris,
Are these courses accessible via public transport?
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CJ-
If you really want to get out and play some golf I can direct you to a few courses. Give you a sense of where most New Yorkers play, literally.
send me a pm if your interested. The names of the courses are Kissena, Clearview and Douglaston. I think these would be easiest to get to by public transportation. I'd have to think a minute to get you to Van Cortland.
-Mike
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If playing during the week, The Knoll (West) in NJ is a good option. Not sure about he conditions, but Split Rock GC at Pelham Bay Park is a very good John Van Kleek course.
Chris,
Are these courses accessible via public transport?
Well that changes it. The Knoll is not. Pelham Bay Park - Split Rock Course and Pelham Bay Park - Pelham courses are accesible via mass transit. You would simply take the the 4/5/6 trains (green line to 125 and transfer to the 6 local or express trains to the last stop Pelham Bay Park. From thre you need to take the Shore Avenue Bus, which goes into Westchester county and has a stop of the golf course I believe it is the B-L 45. Or once as Pelham Bay you could hail a livery cab for 5 bucks most likely to drive you there. Van Kleek's Split Rock Course is a solid course with questionable conditions.
Chris
Bronx Bus Map:
www.mta.info/nyct/maps/busbx.pdf
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If playing during the week, The Knoll (West) in NJ is a good option. Not sure about he conditions, but Split Rock GC at Pelham Bay Park is a very good John Van Kleek course.
Chris,
Are these courses accessible via public transport?
Well that changes it. The Knoll is not. Pelham Bay Park - Split Rock Course and Pelham Bay Park - Pelham courses are accesible via mass transit. You would simply take the the 4/5/6 trains (green line to 125 and transfer to the 6 local or express trains to the last stop Pelham Bay Park. From thre you need to take the Shore Avenue Bus, which goes into Westchester county and has a stop of the golf course I believe it is the B-L 45. Or once as Pelham Bay you could hail a livery cab for 5 bucks most likely to drive you there. Van Kleek's Split Rock Course is a solid course with questionable conditions.
Chris
Bronx Bus Map:
www.mta.info/nyct/maps/busbx.pdf
Thanks Chris.
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Van Cortland Park GC is one of the easiest to get to by Mass Transit (Subway). Take the 1 train to the last stop and follow the signs (walking east) to the course. I would say Split Rock is easily the better course though.
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The Knoll is doable by commuter rail, on the Dover NJ transit line which leaves from Penn Station on west 33rd Street. From RR stop in NJ the cab to course is about 10 minutes. I will try to find best stop, which is near Franklin Lakes
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Is is really worth it to lug your clubs around on public transportation to play some muni's?
If you're dying to play then I say go for it.
May I suggest instead that you visit the peep-shows in the city. Much more fun. ;)
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Van Cortland Park GC is one of the easiest to get to by Mass Transit (Subway). Take the 1 train to the last stop and follow the signs (walking east) to the course. I would say Split Rock is easily the better course though.
longer and tougher, certainly -- I guess better, but to me Van Cortlandt is more loveable. in a little better shape, too, when I played it last year.
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Van Cortland Park GC is one of the easiest to get to by Mass Transit (Subway). Take the 1 train to the last stop and follow the signs (walking east) to the course. I would say Split Rock is easily the better course though.
longer and tougher, certainly -- I guess better, but to me Van Cortlandt is more loveable. in a little better shape, too, when I played it last year.
From an architectural stand point, it is not even close. Split Rock is a solid course. Van Kleek did some unique things there. Bunkering is good, undulating greens. SR suffers from poor conditioning, at least it did. VC is hillier and has some good holes, but the Major Deegan or is it the Moshulu Parkway screwed that course up - some long, awkward walks to get around the highways.
Chris
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Split Rock is certainly worth a look see. With a little TLC and removal of about 2K trees I think it would be awesome. Van Courtland is a neat course and has a good amount of history to it. The last 4 holes do stink on ice, but I have always had a good time there. The front 9 is really a blast.
The regulars there are very protective of the course in a good way. I have seen them stare down and scold "visitors" for not fixing ball makes/divots. They take quite a bit of pride in the place, which is wonderful to see.
The old locker room was actually used in for the squash club scene in Wall Street.
On a side note I'd be happy to meet up and if the logistics work out take a trip to the Knoll.
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From an architectural stand point, it is not even close.
oh please. is this really necessary?
first, it's not only about architecture per se, but let's ignore Van Cortlandt's historical significance and the fact that it's playing as nicely as it is (the guys that were running Forest Park now run it, while Split Rock is held by American Golf), or that VC is just much, much easier to get to on the subway. Split Rock is a beautiful old Westchester-style course with big trees and little domelike greens. there's a greater variety of holes but the succession of longish slight tree-lined doglegs is kind of monotonous. okay, the greens are better. but there nothing at all inspired about the bunkering, and the collection ponds on the back are sumplike.
I used to quit playing Van Cortlandt after 14 because the walk is such a nuisance, which is still a nice quick round and a half. but first of all, the fact that most of the course surrounds urban wetlands, and that it managed to survive all the challenges it's faced in its 113 years, including Robert Moses and The Three Stooges, gives it practically geological significance. the meadowland loops -- try to imagine where the 700-yard ninth was laid out -- yield a succession of pretty and quite entertaining holes, including the 6th and 7th, two quite engaging short par-4s.
for challenge? Split Rock by a mile. in terms of historical architectural interest, yeah, that really isn't close. VC's delicacy and history (Babe Ruth, John McGraw, W.C. Fields) and remarkable urban setting trumps whatever relatively superior strategic interest SR has.
but -- it's a matter of personal preference & I love them both. and once again the fact that Split Rock can't be gotten to easily by public transportation makes it the course I'd recommend someone traveling with his clubs out for a round.
if I'm in town I'd certainly be up for a visit. they're all easy on the wallet, too.
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From an architectural stand point, it is not even close.
oh please. is this really necessary?
first, it's not only about architecture per se, but let's ignore Van Cortlandt's historical significance and the fact that it's playing as nicely as it is (the guys that were running Forest Park now run it, while Split Rock is held by American Golf), or that VC is just much, much easier to get to on the subway. Split Rock is a beautiful old Westchester-style course with big trees and little domelike greens. there's a greater variety of holes but the succession of longish slight tree-lined doglegs is kind of monotonous. okay, the greens are better. but there nothing at all inspired about the bunkering, and the collection ponds on the back are sumplike.
I used to quit playing Van Cortlandt after 14 because the walk is such a nuisance, which is still a nice quick round and a half. but first of all, the fact that most of the course surrounds urban wetlands, and that it managed to survive all the challenges it's faced in its 113 years, including Robert Moses and The Three Stooges, gives it practically geological significance. the meadowland loops -- try to imagine where the 700-yard ninth was laid out -- yield a succession of pretty and quite entertaining holes, including the 6th and 7th, two quite engaging short par-4s.
for challenge? Split Rock by a mile. in terms of historical architectural interest, yeah, that really isn't close. VC's delicacy and history (Babe Ruth, John McGraw, W.C. Fields) and remarkable urban setting trumps whatever relatively superior strategic interest SR has.
but -- it's a matter of personal preference & I love them both. and once again the fact that Split Rock can't be gotten to easily by public transportation makes it the course I'd recommend someone traveling with his clubs out for a round.
if I'm in town I'd certainly be up for a visit. they're all easy on the wallet, too.
I have no idea what the your first sentence is about???
But I know I have had IM's with a member on this site that swears by Split Rock as do I. I have no idea what the conditions of either course are because I have not played them recently. As for getting to Split Rock, yes the subway does not stop right there, but not that area of the Bronx quite well and getting livery cab there is quite easy,
I will agree that playing VC or SR is about one's taste. As for playing VC for the history, I am not sure I buy that how much has that course change since even the Babe was there. I have any memories of playing 6 hour plus rounds at VC which is a huge detractor for me. The longest I ever went at SR is 5 hours.
Chris
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I'm going the second week of June and will try and get away one morning. I was thinking of taking a limo out to play Garden City or a train over to New Jersey to play Bayonne. Does anyone know how I get to Bayonne, I don't think they have a water taxi???
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Does anyone know how I get to Bayonne, I don't think they have a water taxi???
They have a helipad.
THanks to everyone for the suggestions. The Knoll looks like a neat place and will definetly be considered.
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Gents:
A few things need to be clarified before people start going in all sorts of directions that don't make much sense.
If anyone is contemplating playing in the NYC metro area in April you will find turf conditons for nearly all the courses -- save the elite few private ones -- that are at best in marginal shape and many that will require a full shoulder turn to get the ball near the hole on most 15-200 foot putts.
Let me also point out that unless you can handle the immense liabilities of many NYC muni layouts (slow death march play, spotty at best turf conditions and few holes of note save for a few layouts previously mentioned) it's best to avoid them. I love what Dyker, VC, Kissena, and SR offer but one needs to keep things in mind with a sense of real proportion.
On the private side the issue comes down to access and your own network. A number of clubs may entertain the idea of allowing visitors to walk their property but crossing the threshold in actually playing them is another matter indeed.
For those intent on playing Bethpage Black it's important to realize the course can be closed at many times during the season for any number of reasons. It pays immensely to call ahead prior to going there or you can be big time disappointed.
The public side on the Jersey side of the Hudson River likely provides a greater range of choices. I'd recommend The Knoll / West but people need to understand that this is a work in progress. It is not completed and it's not at the point where one can say that all key matters have been resolved.
I'd also suggest people considering Hominy Hill in Colts Neck, NJ -- a good example of RTJ and generally in good condition when compared to others. If weather cooperates people can take the car ride (90 minutes from Manhattan) to the Crystal Springs Resort & Spa in the Franklin / Vernon area of the Garden State. Solid array of public courses with the flagship Ballyowen at the top of the heap.
Joel S:
Best way to leave Manhattan for Bayonne GC is to contact the club regarding their service from the Battery area of Manhattan to the site. If you were to take a limo ride the total time frame would be roughly the same (depending upon daily traffic). Once you exit the Holland Tunnel you take the NJ Tpke connector and head to the Bayonne exit. I can provide the rest to you via a PM if you need the info.
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Thanks Matt: I looked at the Bayonne web site today and they do have a water taxi which the club arranges from Battery Park. This looks like my best option.
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If anyone is contemplating playing in the NYC metro area in April you will find turf conditons for nearly all the courses -- save the elite few private ones -- that are at best in marginal shape and many that will require a full shoulder turn to get the ball near the hole on most 15-200 foot putts.
Let me also point out that unless you can handle the immense liabilities of many NYC muni layouts (slow death march play, spotty at best turf conditions and few holes of note save for a few layouts previously mentioned) it's best to avoid them.
I'm really just curious: has anyone here holding forth about NYC golf courses actually played VC since the Tafits took it over last year? I will admit that I was surprised when I played it last summer: after waiting 15 minutes to go off the tee, we played in 4:15, believe it or not. and conditions there were as good as I've seen in NYC. slow greens? sure, but it's a public course. is any of that a guarantee? no, just first-hand observations.
nuff said.
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