Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Andy Hodson on August 02, 2002, 08:45:45 AM
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Thumbing through my August 2002 issue of Golf Course News and came upon an interesting Point/Counterpoint discussion. The subject was a pro/con debate on golf cars and their impact on golf courses and golf course architecture. I will not excerpt the whole thing, but I will give a few quotes:
From the Con(Point) side: "I have no problem using golf cars where the climate or terrain will not permit walking golf, or for golfers who because of age or disabilities cannot walk. ...I believe golf cars should be a dispensable, or at least optional, part of the game. I further believe that golf cars often help developers accept, justify or rationalize dysfunctional spatial separation (i.e. long rides between holes and golf course features.)
I classify rampant golf car use as part of the definition of North American golf, in addition to lush green playing conditions, sparkling white and perfectly manicured sand bunkers and ornamental accent plantings.
Walking golf tunes your senses to the nature of things and the game seems more alive." The writer goes on to further list the "troubling aspects" caused by golf cars, namely: unattractiveness of paths, extra earthmoving caused by hiding paths, expense of building paths, and the damage caused by car traffic. He concludes by stating that the future of golf should not be tied inextricably to golf car revenue.
The Pro(Counterpoint) side:
"Over the last 30 years, the use of golf cars has had a major impact on modern-day golf. Though I can understand the arguments of those who believe that cars are a detriment to the game and a hindrence to quality golf, I believe that, if done well, they can be incorporated into the golf course without having a major negative impact.
The most challenging aspect of creating new golf courses is integrating car paths. Although we deal with many site conditions...integrating golf cars into the layout of the course can be difficult. "
The writer here goes on to state his criteria for designing car paths and their placement and gives a real world example of a course where he just had to build a path system "because of soil conditions and overall maintenance considerations."
He concludes by asking, "Do golf cars negatively impact the game of golf? Regardless of the impact, positive or negative, in the real world, cars have become a necessary part of the game, and I adjust course design accordingly."
The writer of the Con side: Michael Hurdzan
Representing the Pro side: Tom Fazio
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Man, my first try at starting a thread and nobody bites. Doesn't anybody find to differing quotes about golf cars and the cement paths interesting given the different architects viewpoints?
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I agree with both writers on all points except for the statement "cars have become a necessary part of the game".
It's not carts that I disaprove of, but rather MANDATORY carts.
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In my opinion ,golf carts are the worst thing to happen to American golf.We can blame who we want,but the real problem is that 98% of Americans ride.Even the Scottish replica courses use carts.The best arguement for a club is you are allowed to walk and not a social outcast for doing so.Also riding with another player is a huge distraction.Much easier to visit walking anyway.There is nothing neater than to see a Scottish golfer with his trolley and dog.But build a high quality walking public course,at least in the south and the west,and in the words of Baboo from Seinfield you'll say"where are the people?" ???
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Why does Fazio say "in the real world carts have become a necessary part of the game...?"
That's a load of old bollocks! Few people appear to think carts are necessary in GB&I and other countries too.
The only time I have sympathy for carts is when the weather just gets too draining in the heat and humidity. Which isn't very often.
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Golf Cars and fine fesue, especially immature FF, just don't mix very well. That's one good reason to dislike Golf Cars!
Joe
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What would happen to American golf if, a big if, the majority of people walked? Would there be less watering, less waterfalls for that fact of the matter, less excess, less this and less that......and better golf and golf courses? There would definitely be less revenue, no getting around that. But would that make for a different landscape in this country's golf? Would it get back to basics? Back to the game? Less development around residential areas? And if the answer is yes, is that all a good thing?
Would there be less golf courses, less golfers as a result? But maybe a higher percentage of *true* golfers?
Again, just wondering.
BTW, I am not a big fan of golf cars, yet I find myself in them alot. Truth in advertisement.
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Walking beats riding any day!!
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Paul
True. But what are the ramifications of riding, and specifically, golf cars and their paths, on golf course architecture, and the way archies approach their projects?
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I played my first round at Yale with a cart (out of 20+ rounds played there lifetime) this week, due to a friend of mine that I was playing with has had major knee surgery. I hit 5-6 balls OB/lost as I could never get into a flow, at least that is my excuse.
However, I do not want to kill carts entirerly. I think they have a place. What does drive me crazy about carts is when courses make them mandatory. I will gladly pay the fee, and let me walk. I recently played at Hawk Point in NJ which I really liked. It is a great course for walking, and yet they tried to force 2 of us onto a cart. It was not even a revenue issue as they have a flat fee, they leave walking to members only, which they probably don't have many of yet due to the newness of the course. Their rational was that walking slows down play. I finally convinced the Pro by referring to GCA and that we did not drive 75 minutes to play a cart only course, thus he let us walk. The other pet peeve is when these courses force you on a cart and then make it cart paths only, and you spend the entire day walking across fairways.
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I only wish that carts in the US were treated the same way as in Scotland or Ireland - you need a doctor's note and the course only has one or two buggies!
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Sad as it may seem, Golf Cars have become an integral part of golf in North America. Our Junior Golfers are saddened by the fact that we require them to walk. :'( :'( :'(
Tom Fazio has designed both of our golf courses at Berkeley Hall (Bluffton, SC) with the "core" golf concept, yet the majority of the vegetation, as well as the layout were designed, and planted to hide the cart paths.
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Shivas-
Nobody could have said it better !!! :o :o
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We have hashed all this out before, Hod, So maybe thats why nobody bit till now.
Heres an unanswerable question but interesting to ponder.
How would golf architecture in america be different if there never was a cart?
IMHO,
First, there would be less courses, no doubt. Why? Because all those that entered the market for "bottomline" reasons would most likely never even have considered it. The perpetual Profit Machine know as carts, is what makes positive cash flow possible.
Second, the courses that were built, would be better and not just conditionwise but architecurally. It is my contention that if someone did take on the project, for the love of golf, versus bottomline, everyone who played there would be more appreciative of the little things, like routing & strategy and less in awe of some beautiful floral plantings or taking advantage of vistas with an uphill climb to every tee box.
Again this is my opinion gleamed from my vast experience of NOT being in the business and having the luxury of holding on to my ideals. :-*
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In my first post, I hate to admit I seldom walk when playing, but there are several factors to consider.
1. Caddies are not an option.
2. All of my playing partners ride( I know this is a cheap reason)
3. In this part of the country( southeast Ohio) there is no such thing as a flat course or hole. EVery shot seems uphill.
4. Carrying my bag(oversized) with everything I need for a round, several balls, tees, rainsuit, beer, and of course clubs, and believe me I need all 14, is an Olympic Sport. My son often uses it in place of weights.
I'm not defending course designers who build in carts and require you to use them. In my younger days I walked often, almost always, and I had more time to play too.
But most new courses are built around vacation resorts. The key point being maximum rounds played by people with money to spend. Playing a course for the first time, and walking it, especially at a resort or so called "high tourist" area, slows play.
Lets face it, most of these courses are built to make money, not to make and impact in the golf world.
For example: I played my share of courses in the Myrtle Beach area. Alot of senic courses, but only a handlful of memorable holes.
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shivas, my friend. For one who graces this site with consistently cogent observations, I think that you missed on this one. Carts are necessary simply because golf players demand them. Carts and golfers go necessarily together because of cultural norms and the poor physical condition that most white men, and now, many white women, find themselves in. American Golf Corp. and other operators are taking advantage of the situation simply because the demand is there. And at least in this part of the country, there is a stigma attached to those who choose to go at it on foot.
There is no question that circuitous cart paths has an impact on the architecture and, as a result, the way the course plays. I think that even Fazio would admit that the positioning of the paths influences how the hole is ultimately layed-out, graded, etc.
However, it is not logical to argue that cart paths have only had a negative impact on golf design. In some cases, they've allowed an architect to interconnect interesting land spread over a large tract, that otherwise would not have made a very good course if the distances from green to tee were minimized. As was said earlier, without carts, there would have been fewer courses built, which means that many of the young, creative archies we are blessed with today would not have gotten a start.
I hate carts, probably as much as anyone here. I've lost numerous good relationships because I am generally unwilling to get in a cart. Out of stubborness, I haven't played competitive golf for the past 8+ years because my club instituted a mandatory riding policy during weekend morning tee times, and most area tournaments are cart golf.
Yet, I acknowledge that carts, for the most part, have become a necessity. I am willing to coexist with my riding friends. I just wish that they and course management felt similarly toward the small minority which prefers walking. My tee time today is 12:49. It is supposed to be 100*, with minimal wind. A scorcher for sure, but I will be walking, and keeping up with all the riders with and in front of me.
Like the ball and implements issue, this one has no easy solution. I just hope that we are not raising our kids to be totally sedentary, and further reinforce this awful habit.
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Lou- My only question to you is, could you name a few of the courses that are of note, that have connected these large tracts of land with an almost mandatory cart and path?
In other words are there any GREAT courses that have been built in the last 50 years that utilized the seperated tract arguement you put forward?
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Amen Lou. Your walking character is to be applauded as you sacrifice early morning golf and club tournaments and walk in the afternoon. How do we stop mandatory carts in the AM. Some say there are three issues. 1) Pace of Play - Course management sells the mandatory cart story as keeping the pace of play moving. That's fiction. My regular foursome plays in less than four hours, all of us walking. We each walk to our shot, and are ready to hit when its our turn. Many times people on carts are in fact slower than walkers, because instead of dropping off their cart mate and going to their ball they sit thru their cart mates preshot routine, the shot, replacement of divot (hopefully) then do it all over again for the second person in the cart 2) Course routing - Yes, good point you raise, one can reach terrain not reachable if we had to walk between holes. 3) The real reason, as we all know, is Dollars.
I live near a wonderful course in Northern Virginia called Stonewall. It's a dramatic Tom Jackson layout. Tom, bless him, set up the course to be walkable. The tees are all near the previous holes greens. Sadly Stonewall does not allow walking. I'd join the course in a moment if they allowed walking, but I'm voting with my dollar. The only thing that really counts. At least Tom made it possible to walk. Some architects have made it impossible to walk a course. Let carts be a business decision, or the decision of the golfer himself, not an arrogant disregard for people who enjoy golf at ground level.
It is a sad commentary on our culture when one sees 16-30 year old studs taking a cart, and worse, they're in awe when they see me carrying my bag, like I'm some sort of world-class athlete. I know men well into their 70s carrying their bags doing 18 holes, 3 times a week. Toughen up America.
By the way, the most enjoyable walking course I've been on is Spyglass. You experience parts of the Monterey Peninsula cart riders don't. As the cart highways wind past the dunes and incredible terrain, Spyglass set up boardwalks and walking paths right through the middle of the dunes, it's magnificent. Thank you Spyglass for giving us an option.
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Adam,
There are many good courses spread out over large tracts which would have been compromised in a smaller area. I would never argue for mandatory riding under any condition EXCEPT speed of play. As a libertarian, I believe that if you choose to walk PGA West in 115* heat and keel over, that's your doing. However, if by walking you are taking 5 hours and holding everyone up behind you, then that's a problem.
I didn't say anything about GREAT courses, though there are several very good layouts on the RTJ Trail in Alabama for example that are not walkable for most people (though it is not prohibited). Sand Hills is a GREAT course in most people's estimation, but one that is not easily walked (nor a piece of cake to ride either). Dallas National, I believe, will become a course of note, and due to the elevation changes, size of the canvass, and extreme weather, it will not be easy to walk (though I understand that they're establishing a caddy program). My main point is that the walking and riding debate is not all black and white. I believe that responsibility (maintaining the pace of play, repairing divots, avoiding sensitive and highly trafficked areas) and tolerance (of other people's preferences) are the key. We can coexist if we choose to look at the issues from both standpoints.
DK,
Sorry, but my stubborness or reluctance to go elsewhere is not to be commended. My "protest" has had no impact on the club, and I am the only loser in this whole mess. Other less recalcitrant walkers have moved on, but I doubt that they've found much refuge elsewhere. It is just the way things are down here.
Concerning the speed of play issue, there is no question that a golfer who knows how to play the game and use a cart can play faster than if he had to walk. I can easily play 18 holes in less than 2 hours if I ride, while it would take me an additional half an hour or more by walking. This advantage is greatly diminished if the carts must remain on the cart paths. Unfortunately, there are way too many walkers, specially beginners and infrequent players, who just bog down the course. The riders point at these folks with some justification, as the speed of play is generally dictated by the slowest group on the course.
You are right about money being the culprit on the management side. At least my club makes no bones about it; at least in private they'll tell you that it is all about profit. Personally, I don't believe that the 70% profit margins that they claim are anywhere close to reality. Perhaps some day I'll take the time to do a complete analysis, but when considering the capital cost of the paths ($500,000+), their maintenance, impact on irrigation and drainage, the cost of the fleet (buy or lease), normal vehicle maintenance and repairs, and other costs to repair damage caused by carts, I wonder if it is that profitable. I guess from the standpoint that most folks want to ride, cart operations are largely a fixed cost, so it makes some sense to force volume. Sorry to digress, but I guess I have a rather large burr up my a-- about being forced to pay for something I really don't want. It damn near seems unAmerican.
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Lou,Thanks for the motivation.With the temperature hovering near 100 I was going to invoke August rules and ride.I never really enjoy a riding round.If I get in a cart once I ride until labor day.At my club some people do a four bagger.I would rather just carry so I have my clubs when I need them.We tried a caddie program a few years ago and it didn't work.
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Just to follow up my post above, I played Yale today without a cart, no OB's, played/scored much better on a very hot and humid day. I simply play better without a cart.
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I played a course last week where walking was not allowed, this was for many reasons, one being that the 7th and 8th holes went the same direction, tees next to each other and green next to each other, you played the 7th, went back down the path to the 8th tee, and played it.
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Walk-backs constitute very poor, dangerous routing. It seems that the architect could have found a way to connect the holes, perhaps with a short one. Hidden Creek in Burleson, TX has a long, difficult 8th hole where once you finish, you then have to come back the same way for about 150 yds+, then take a 90* turn and go a couple hundred yards more. Walkers generally cut across a farmer's field, the long side of a triangle, which cuts a little bit of the distance. The architect apparently got himself "stuck" out in no man's land, and his routing is an abomination. Interesting short holes are often used to overcome these kinds of problems, which may not always be ideal, but is a far superior alternative than making riding mandatory.
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How about another aspect of this issue, the effect of golf carts on classic courses that were intended to be walked? Among the many remarkable aspects of BPB was its lack of motorized traffic, which led to the best maintained fairways I have ever seen. Golf carts lead to wear and tear and destroy a good part of the golf experience. I applaud all the clubs that strongly discourage carts and enforce medical exemptions for riders.
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If you only walk when caddies are available...you are not a walker at all...you're just another guy with with a great job and 70 bucks in your pocket. If you've got a spare 70 bucks and you carry your own bag you're a cheap ass who probably would skip out on child support if given a chance...should you take a caddie on Sunday or should you carry your own bag and send your wife a dozen roses...50 rounds at 70 bucks a loop adds up to real money...carrying your own bag destroys a caddie program...a good caddie program is more rare than a happy wife...the choice is easy.
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Jeff
Good issue. Although the revenues from golf cars cannot be overlooked, what is overlooked is the increased expense in course maintenance incurred from their wear and tear. Has anybody seen or heard of a ballpark $$ figure placed on what that expense might be?
JakaB
Now you've introduced a second, and ancillary, moral dilemma into this debate. Can we now deduce that all married cart riders are just taking the easy way out and not risking bringing any undo harm into their marraige? I have heard of a ballpark $$ figure on marriages gone wrong, though.
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Lou mentioned "walkbacks" as aggrevious to good routing. It got me thinking that perhaps Tom Fazio is such a proponent of carts because it permits him to do little things like this number at Pine Hill...
After playing a downhill par four on the back nine, with a beautiful view of the Philadelphia skyline (no, that's NOT a misprint ;) ), he carts you straight back up to the top of the same hill again so that you can play a par three paralleling the same direction and view. (That sentence intentionally and symbollically redundant)
Stellar stuff. ::)
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JakaB,
Are you calling me a cheap ass? The only caddy that I've ever had worth a damn was at CP, and I am not sure that he was worth the $160 he made carrying double. Hell, he told me early on that he and I were not going to get along if he had to chase my divots all day (tanslation- he had to attend to two golfers- so fix your own divots)! Good thing he could read greens; his customer relations was surely lacking.
Seriously, those of you with the fat wallets and Rolex's shouldn't mind supporting a small group of caddies. But isn't your (Barney) stance just as pernicious as those of the Cart Nazis? Personally, I prefer hauling my own bag (though I would consider a pull-cart if allowed), and depending on my own wits to get me around. I don't need a Bobby Jones shirt, leather FJ Classics. the status, and a romantic notion of turn-of-the-century golf to enjoy myself on the course. For those of you who like to play with caddies and can afford to finance the program, all the more power to you. But for me, tight ass as I might be, it is not my thing. BTW, I do not owe child support payments nor have any other financial responsibilities that I haven't fulfilled. And my wife would much prefer that I buy her roses than spend my money to have someone else do what I am totally capable of doing myself with little marginal effort.
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Could it be, then, that golf cars allow both player and architect to be lazy?
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Lou,
Sorry...you are the consumate walker and gentleman as exhibited by our round at Barona where we were forced into chasing a cart riding duo and being chased by semi sober cart riding purists who left their walking ethics in the stool.
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why can't golf courses offer auto kaddy/electronic caddy carts instead of golf carts? is there a cost issue having to deal with more maintenance and units or an issue with wear and tear on the course?
certainly, they promote walking and are quite a bit lighter than a fully loaded golf cart.
here's a photo of our fearless leader and dr. g. childs using such a device at beechtree...
(http://www.golfclubatlas.com/images/00000135.jpg)
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hey, I resemble that remark!
I am such a hypocrite sometimes. I love to walk. Yet, if everyone else is riding, I won't rock the boat, and will ride. I'd rather carry my own, but I always feel the pressure to ride. Have any of you ever come up with a good way to deal with this dilemna?
Nope. I'm with you 100%, Dave. When conftonted with young Todd E. and Josh T. in a cart at Barona, hell no, I sure wasn't gonna be the only one to walk, given I'm 10 years older and 50 pounds fatter and had 8 hours less sleep the previous night than each of them. I have principles and then I have principles. Bring me the cart!
Seriously though, I'm with you and feel that walking when others are in carts is just not worth it - the stand isn't worth the anti-social feeling. That's just me though and when others have done it I have nothing against them.
TH
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Carts are the bane of golf.
A good caddie program is terrific and think how many young people benefit from the scholarship programs, etc not to mention the money they can earn.
Carts do beat up a golf course and it takes a very well thought out, disciplined and maintained cart traffic management plan to minimize the damage.
At CRCC we spend close to $20,000 per year on cart traffic management and we are successful in keeping beat up areas to a minimum and also hiding these areas from view. We have also tried to the extent possible to hide the paths in the tree lines etc and well away from the play areas.
At my Club in Florida they just blame the carts for everything and say we have to build a continuous cart path system which is horrendous. Yet they have no traffic management plan.
Shivas:
The way I handle this is to try and get one other guy to walk and if I can't I try to get a single caddie. If I can't do that then I give in and ride. :-[
Best,
Dave
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William Wang;
Could the reason for their scarcity be that people walk them over the aprons, as exhibited above? ;D
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Or they get their remote control out of control and run 'em into the lakes. I've seen that a few times.
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Dave Miller: is there a more perfect example of this then what I faced in my visit to CRCC?
Walk by myself or ride with Ed Baker.
If there ever was a no-brainer, that was it. Anyone who's played golf with Mr. Baker knows what I would have missed had I walked along solo.
TH
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Anyone who spends as much time on this site as the regulars should be ambassadors to golf...this includes walking as much as it includes fixing ball marks and replacing divots and carrying only 14 clubs not including nonconforming cheatsticks. It includes playing the ball down in league when everyone else moves it...It includes taking penalties no matter how mundane or stupid they may seem...It includes taking your hat off in the club house even if everyone else wears theirs. One reason I can't stomach to post under my own name is because I know I don't show the game or its patrons the respect they deserve and it embarrasses me to the point of anonymity. As St. Augie said...who will cheat and who will ride is all predetermined so just show up relax and enjoy the game.
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Huckster:
What you didn't know was that even the hulking EH Baker, IV is a closet walker and possibly could have been convinced to walk with you.
On back to back days in 100 + temperatures and humidity hitting the top of the scale the estimable Mr. Baker walked all 18 at Aronimink and the next day all 18 at Merion. As we stood on the 16th tee at Merion the thermometer on the Driving range shack was reading 106.
However, walking or riding, golf with Ed is an experience unlike any other. I learn this every time we play. Yesterday was another example, and there is a certain Division I-A football coach who now knows what a cart hummer is complements of Ed Baker.
You're right the experience with Ed would require using the same venue.
Best
Dave
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tough sell on augustine as he not only believed in massa damnata but also divine grace... makes me think that all golfers are damned and we should not even bother showing up as the preordained shank on 12 and sliced drive into the water on 18 will attest ;)
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Dave: oh yes, I gather Mr. Baker prefers to walk indeed but when he came up in a cart that day, I wasn't asking any questions. And yes, in any case I learned more new golf terms that day than the last 15 years combined and I would have missed that for sure if I walked and he rode or vice versa. "TOC" is an entirely new acronym, for example, and it ain't The Old Course, that's for sure!
TH
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OK, I'll bite: what's a "cart hummer"?
rob (aka, indy)
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Rob Hallford:
You'll have to ask Mr. Edward H. Baker, IV. Better yet play a round of golf with him and you'll know a whole lot more.
Cheers,
Dave
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William Wang:
Traipsing a golf cart between bunkers and greens at our place, would result in a letter from the president threatening twenty lashes with a rhinoceros hide whip and bread and water for thirty days.
We have no caddies, I find carrying decidedly unpleasant, pulling a trolley is not much better. The answer, the battery operated Kaddy-Kart.
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It has been confirmed that we now have ladies participating on this site, therefore, any explanation of my peculiar rhetoric will be confined to the golf course or Mens grille. My patrician upbringing rears its ugly head once more!
I can only say that when my time comes, I pray that the lord takes me swiftly. If I am confined in a non ambulatory state for longer than a few days and forced to pay off on the 16,972 coupons "redeemable at a later date" that are currently in circulation, it will be a truly horrible end to a mis-spent life of golf and jocularity! ;)
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For me it is simple. I play better when I walk. I enjoy it more. I get distracted in a golf cart...doesn't matter where I'm playing or with whom. Heck, I even lost a ball because of this...nothing to do with my brutal hook of the tee. ;)