Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Paul Sinclair on December 28, 2007, 12:00:43 PM
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I was just reading through the thread started by Mike Cirba about Cobb's Creek and ran across a mention by TEPaul of William Gordon. Tom mentions that "apparently the old PPGA (Philadelphia Public Golf Association) was sort of the brainchild of longtime Flynn foreman and then independent architect William Gordon." That's the first mention I've run across about William Gordon here on GCA and I was interested to see it since Gordon designed my home course, Willow Oaks Country Club in Richmond, VA. I just did a GCA.com search and find a few comments about him, but not much.
I've only played two of Gordon's courses (to my knowledge anyway): Willow Oaks and Fairfax Country Club (northern Virginia.) Both were designed by Gordon in the late 50's during a pretty bleak period in golf course architecture. I am certainly not blown away by his work at either course, although his routing work at Willow Oaks was well done. My suspicion has always been that he may have been a pretty good work horse at getting courses built for others, but as an architect he may have been ... hmmm, well, a good construction foreman. I'd be interested in any comments on that suspicion since it is an uneducated surmise on my part and if it is wrong, I'd like to be abused for holding this opinion for so long. He certainly made lasting contributions to golf by virtue of his work for Toomey, Flynn, and others but perhaps his contributions as an independent architect were not as great?
My course - Willow Oaks - opened for play in the late 1950's (nine holes opened in '58 and the full course in '59.) Over the course of the years, particularly in the late 80's and into the mid-90's, there were considerable changes made, primarily to greens. Nine holes of the course are in the flood plain of the James River (we call it "the lower nine".) Gordon's original greens were at the same level as fairways. This proved to be troublesome in the lower nine because whenever the course would flood (not an unusual occurrence) the greens would be under water for days at a time. Over the years, this caused severe problems in the green sites, as you can imagine. The work done in the 80's and 90's was geared primarily toward getting greens out of the flood plain to protect them from continuing damage. These series of changes basically erased any vestiges of the original Gordon greens. Bunkering was also totally redone as these changes were made.
We've recently completed a comprehensive redesign / renovation (pick your poison) of the course under the direction of local architect Lester George. There were many reasons for the renovation, chief among them the need to fix drainage problems which have plagued the course for many, many years. There was also a general feeling that the course itself held very little interest in terms of strategy. The routing was solid and was retained but other than that the original Gordon course is unrecognizable.
I'd be interested to get some more information or observations about William Gordon. The reason I'm particularly interested at this point is that in addition to the course renovation we've just completed, the Club is also going through a year long series of events celebrating it's 50th Anniversary. The culmination of this will be the course reopening, hopefully Memorial Day weekend 2008 if greens are ready by then. It might be interesting to have some more information about William Gordon to include in a little Club history that we are preparing.
I'd also just be interested to satisfy some of my own curiosity about him. Thanks for any information or observations about Mr. Gordon or any of his courses.
For whatever it's worth, I actually did a little bit of research on Gordon myself about 10 years or so ago and posted a several paragraph blurb about him on a website. Here's the information I wrote, which is based primarily (as far as I can recall) on information from Cornish and Whitten's book on course architecture:
"William F. Gordon was born in 1893 in Rhode Island. Gordon was a Founding Member of the American Society of Golf Course Architects. Other Founding Members included William P. Bell, Robert White, William Langford, Donald Ross, Robert Bruce Harris, Stanley Thompson, Robert Trent Jones, William Diddle, James B. McGovern, Jack Daray, Sr., Robert "Red" Lawrence, and Perry Maxwell. Gordon served as President of the ASGCA in 1953 and again in 1967 and also served as Chairman of its first Historical Committee.
Gordon was an outstanding athlete in his youth and served as athletic instructor with the U.S. Navy during World War I. Upon discharge he took a job as salesman with the Peterson Seed Company and in 1920 joined the Carter's Tested Seed Company as superintendent of its golf course construction division. In this capacity he constructed courses for such well-known golf architects as Willie Park, Jr., Leonard Macomber, Donald Ross and Devereux Emmet.
In 1923 Gordon joined the firm of Toomey and Flynn, where he remained until 1941. During the Depression, he was also part owner and manager of Marble Hall GC in Philadelphia. Gordon founded the Pennsylvania Public Golfers association and served as its first president from 1936 until 1940 and was also a member and president of the Philadelphia Public Golfers Association.
In 1941 Gordon formed his own corporation, which was involved until 1945 in the seeding of military installations. For the next five years the firm constructed golf courses for Donald Ross and J. B. McGovern. From 1950 to 1973 Gordon designed and built courses on his own under the incorporated name of William F. Gordon Co. Most of his courses planned after 1953 were done in collaboration with his son David. He died in 1974 at his home in Abington, Pennsylvania."
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Paul:
Good post / info on Gordon.
Keep in mind his son David, as you correctly noted, was part of his design team. If you need other examples of his design I would include the following:
Saucon Valley (Grace Course)
Buena Vista (Buena, NJ)
The Stanwich Club (Greenwich, CT)
Buena Vista is public and is halfway between Philadelphia and AC. The par-5 10th is one of favorite type holes among the public ones of this par in NJ.
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Paul,
Good post. The first place you should look is in your master plan by Lester George. He probably did some research on Gordon before doing work on the design and would have likely included his findings there. In addition, if you want to email me offline I'd be happy to pass on some information that I have collected over the years. I've studied quite a few of his designs and recently done some work on both David and William Gordon designs.
Good luck,
Mark
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If you would like to contact David Gordon for information regarding your course, send me an IM and I can try to arrange. If he is feeling well, he can be exceptionally receptive.
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Paul:
One interested in architecture and observant about it can probably see a number of similarities in architectural style between Flynn courses and Gordon courses for fairly obvious reasons.
Greenside bunkering schemes, particularly the sort of diagonally flaring out style at the fronts of greens and in approaches is one example.
Some consider Gordon to be sort of a B grade architect from the latter day Philly School but that might be giving the guy a bum rap.
I played the Weyhill course in the Lesley Cup this fall and I was pretty impressed by a whole lot of it.
Gordon was apparently the guy who first put the idea in Geoffrey Cornish's head to do what became "The Architect's of Golf" with Ron Whitten.
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Paul,
Another very good example of Gordon's work is Deerfield in Delaware. This course has been mentioned here before and is a big favorite of Mike Malone and myself. It does have look of a Flynn course.
From the website:
Originally built by the DuPont Corporation for its employees in 1955, the club was called Louviers Country Club. In 1994 MBNA purchased the club from DuPont and built the new clubhouse ballroom and recreational building, renaming it Deerfield Golf & Tennis Club. In 2005 the state of Delaware acquired the 145-acre property to protect the land from development. The club is part of Delaware’s White Clay Creek State Park supervised by the Delaware Division of Parks and Recreation.
In February 2006 the Division of Parks and Recreation retained Forewinds Hospitality to manage the property. Forewinds is in the midst of a myriad of capital improvements to enhance the unequaled grand elegance of this natural treasure. Deerfield Golf & Tennis Club opened to the public for the first time in 51 years on April 14, 2006.
www.deerfieldgolfclub.com
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Wayne,
You must have caught him on one of his good days ;D We've spoken several times and he seems to have little interest anymore in golf course architecture or recalling his work on his or his Dad's courses. Probably the guy who is most receptive that could talk about Gordon's work is G. Cornish though he is such a nice guy he won't say anything negative about anyone. I love speaking with Mr. Cornish. He recently helped me research an old Emmet design and he must be 95 years old.
Mark
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No, Mark. He likes me and has a high regard for the work that Tom and I are doing. I've spoken to him 20 or more times and all except two or three times when he was not well, he has been extremely kind and helpful. His stewardship of the Flynn drawings is a source of pride and an amazing contribution to the study of American golf course architecture. I think you are wrong about David. He may not have an interest in discussing golf architecture with some folks depending upon their agenda. I am not one of them and he continues to amaze me with additional archival material and insights. Just like he wanted The Architects of Golf to be written, he wants to see the USGA develop the golf architecture archive and research center and wants the Flynn architectural drawings to go in as a keystone collection.
I've spoken to Geoffrey Cornish as has Tom. He is as kind a gentleman as I've ever encountered. Unfortunately, he does not remember details of his work on some of the Flynn courses we've been researching (TCC, Brookline and Concord CC for example).
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Wayne,
Maybe you are right as I only called him a few times. Why don't you speak with him and see if he will do an interview with Ran for Golf Club Atlas. That would be really cool to hear his thoughts about his work along with his Dad's. I'm sure he would love to offer his thoughts for a site like this. What does everyone else think?
Mark
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What's the scoop on William & David Gordon?
I hate to be negative, but here goes - I've played only one of their designs, and it was one of the worst designs I've ever played.
Am I wrong on the quality of their work?
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What's the scoop on William & David Gordon?
I hate to be negative, but here goes - I've played only one of their designs, and it was one of the worst designs I've ever played.
Am I wrong on the quality of their work?
Their Stanwich Club is regarded as one of the two or three best in the underrated golf state of Connecticut. I've not played it but I know a few people who have and they praise it highly. They had Tom Fazio do some updating in anticipation for the US Mid-Am a few years ago, but what the Gordons did is still there.
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Tim G:
The Stanwich Club is a difficult layout -- there's little doubt about that.
The issue is one of does the overall demands really foster anything along the lines of compelling architecture. On that front I don't see Stanwich rising to the level of a Winged Foot / West which is equally demanding but has an array of fasicnating design elements that play no less a role than the spiking up of the toughness dimension.
Tim -- you say others who have played it praise it highly. Be curious to know how highly they praise it. In their mind is it worthy of top 100 acclaim. If they say yes, then in my mind, they have pushed the demand meter way beyond where it should be.
Dan H:
I have to piggyback on what you said -- Gordon did the work at Saucon Valley's Grace Course and how the layout ever got rated among the top 100 in the USA for quite some time still leaves me scratching my head in disbelief.
If I had to mention a sleeper that's fairly good -- try Buena Vista in south Jersey about 30 minutes west of AC. It's now public but started as a private club. I'm not suggesting it's in the league with the other top tier public courses in and around the area like Twisted Dune but it's worth a play if time allows.
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I apologize in advance for the slight thread jack but I can speak to Stanwich a little as I played in that Mid-Am years ago.
I agree with Matt it is hard but it in no way compares to Winged Foot (East or West).
At the Mid-Am I was not alone in feeling that there was more quirk, fun and interest at Round Hill (the second course) than in the "main course" Stanwich. As an example after playing my practice round at Round Hill I was nervous as there seemed to be a lot that I felt I might have missed in my one time around the course. After the round I went back to analyze several tee shots to try and develop a plan.
However, after just nine holes the next day at Stanwich I literally had had enough.
I told my caddie I didn't need to see any more of the course as every damn hole played the same--keep it under a green severely pitched back to front and go practice putting. I paid the caddie his full rate and said I'll see you in the AM!
I was a little hung over from the previous night :P but was so unimpressed by Stanwich I said "screw this"! FWIW I qualified 8th in the stroke play field, shot 39 or so on my last nine (the back nine at Stanwich) which was my first "view" of those holes and later lost in the second round of match play. Quite honestly I've only played in two Mid-Ams--both in Conn. (Stanwich and Hartford GC) and while I lost both times in the second round of match play (which means I played decent enough and am not just sour from poor play) I came away thoroughly let down by the USGA's choices in "championship" courses.
Stanwich is hard but so what! They do have a cool alternate logo--the witch on the broomstick I think. :D
I also understand they had a re-do since the Mid-Am but I assume that means they added length and made it tougher :o Maybe they cut down the stupid Weeping Willows all over the back side--both par 5s if I remember correctly were over run with them.
Pretty swanky neighborhood though :)
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What's the scoop on William & David Gordon?
I hate to be negative, but here goes - I've played only one of their designs, and it was one of the worst designs I've ever played.
Am I wrong on the quality of their work?
Dan, you at least owe it to yourself to play Deerfield in Delaware. Pretty darn good. Not great. But you'll enjoy it.
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Chris:
Good piece of news you provided.
Beyond Round Hill there are also some interesting holes / situations at nearby Blind Brook.
The Stanwich Club is a demanding layout but from the architectural side it really lacks anything remotely worthy of special attention or a visit from any player outside 100 miles of Greenwichin my mind.
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I have REALLY mixed emotions about William Gordon.
He built both the Grace and Weyhill courses at Saucon Valley. The Grace is a big, bold, tough test of golf. Weyhill is a fantastic piece of property, the kind any architect would kill to work on, and he built a great course, including good use of an old quarry.
On the other hand, he was hired to "modernize" Hackensack (Banks) and he really did a number on it. Hard to blame him, I guess he did what the members asked...and no one was "restoring" in the early 1960's...
In doing my research on Hackensack, I had some email exchanges with his son and partner, David Gordon. I learned that William did not believe in bunkers behind greens, he believed that going over (and usually having to play back into a steep slope) was penalty enough. This was bad news for Banks fans at Hackensack...
As an interesting aside, on Saucon Grace, he built a near exact replica of the Eden. He corresponded with a Scottish architect who mailed exact dimensions from the Old Course to Gordon. His Hill , Strath and Shelley bunkers are excellent and the green slopes steeply from back to front, making any misses near impossible to get up and down. I say "near exact" because there is no water behind the green. This puzzled me, because the Saucon Creek meanders throughout the property, he could have built this hole with the "River Eden" behind, but he chose not to, and that's why I started my exchange with his son, who said "Dad just did not like bunkers behind greens."
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Bill:
After reading about the Grace Course at Saucon Valley for YEARS I had the opportunity to play it about 20 years ago and I thought my God this must be some course because it's always been a top 100 layout. What an absolutely dull and unimaginative layout that I have ever played.
Pales in comparison to the Old and Weyhill layouts there in my mind.
How it got rated in the top 100 is a testament to the legacy of its founder Eugene Grave and the club itself.
The same thing applies for me in regards to The Stanwich Club. No doubt it's always in peak turf quality and the demands are certainly present. It's just empty in terms of any charm and has nothing on the compelling architecture side of things.
If you ever get an opportunity and are in the greater AC area you should head over to Buena Vista and see the outlines of what he created there. It has its moments but as I said previously Twisted Dune is not sweating its overall position as the top public layout in the immediate vicinity.
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I think many of the top people at Golf Digest are or were members of Stanwich. ;D
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Steve:
Might be your right !
You see I view a few of the Northeast layouts that were either rated in the top 100 or only recently have been voted out -- as being really less than compelling architecture. I would include a place like Aronimink in the mix too -- althoug to be fair I have not played the course since the work was completed there.
The Grace Course never really excited me -- I was hoping for something to happen and it never did. Stanwich has the better property than Grace -- but it's more of what Chris mentioned before -- steep greens from back-to-front and plenty of length with fairways as thin as Marilyn Monroe's waist.
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The Gordons did a number of private clubs in the Philly 'burbs- Sunnybrook, Cedarbrook, Spring Mill, among them. Deerfield in Wilmington, DE,as Joe Bausch stated above, is a very good example of his work and is open to the public. I refer to Deefield as a "Faux Flynn."
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Steve:
What Doak number would you assign any of the courses you just mentioned. Frankly, I played a few of the ones you mentioned and if anything gets more than a five I'd be shocked.
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I can't comment on Spring Mill as I've never played there. Sunnybrook has undergone some work recently so I won't comment. Likewise for Cedarbrook. I'd give Deerfield a 5 as it can be seen as a very good example of Gordon's work.
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I can't comment on Spring Mill as I've never played there. Sunnybrook has undergone some work recently so I won't comment. Likewise for Cedarbrook. I'd give Deerfield a 5 as it can be seen as a very good example of Gordon's work.
Steve,
Spring Mill is one of the Gordons? Where did you get this from? I had always thought it was former Philadelphia Publinks Superintendent Garrett Renn.
I think Matt is on to a very good conclusion here. William/David Gordon are kings of the Doak 4. Today's equivalent would be Jim Blaukovitch. Pretty steady, you know what you'll get with an occasional excellent hole and a few holes that are definite head-scratchers.
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Matt,
I can understand why you would say the Grace is dull. But my guess is that it was rated as a top 100 course at a time when that style was much more in vogue. Plus, it was always SUPERBLY maintained, I think far better than most private clubs. I can't prove that, but I remember playing it in the 80's, walking down the first fairway, and thinking "this is like hitting a golf ball off my mother's dining room carpet." Know what I mean? So tight yet soft, WAY too nice to be hitting a golf ball on :)
But try playing this course from the Black tees in club championship qualifying...and you won't call it dull :)
It is a perfectably acceptable third course!
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I can't comment on Spring Mill as I've never played there. Sunnybrook has undergone some work recently so I won't comment. Likewise for Cedarbrook. I'd give Deerfield a 5 as it can be seen as a very good example of Gordon's work.
Steve,
Spring Mill is one of the Gordons? Where did you get this from? I had always thought it was former Philadelphia Publinks Superintendent Garrett Renn.
I think Matt is on to a very good conclusion here. William/David Gordon are kings of the Doak 4. Today's equivalent would be Jim Blaukovitch. Pretty steady, you know what you'll get with an occasional excellent hole and a few holes that are definite head-scratchers.
Kyle, I don't disagree with that statement but I think this raises an interesting CGA question: should Doak 4's be maintained true to the original architect's intent, or are they fair game to be completely modified by good, current architects?
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Kyle,
My mistake. Did Renn work for the Gordons?
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Matt,
I can understand why you would say the Grace is dull. But my guess is that it was rated as a top 100 course at a time when that style was much more in vogue. Plus, it was always SUPERBLY maintained, I think far better than most private clubs. I can't prove that, but I remember playing it in the 80's, walking down the first fairway, and thinking "this is like hitting a golf ball off my mother's dining room carpet." Know what I mean? So tight yet soft, WAY too nice to be hitting a golf ball on :)
But try playing this course from the Black tees in club championship qualifying...and you won't call it dull :)
It is a perfectably acceptable third course!
If you gave a C&C access to re-do weyhill, holy crap that'd be a good course.
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Bill B:
I can understand what you said -- but believe me, I always play from the tips and frankly I have even played from behind the hedges on a few courses of note. ;D
The issue with turf quality has ZERO / NADA to do with any thing architecturally. Frankly, there are a number of NJ courses that can easily wax the Grace Course in terms of overall compelling architecture and they've never received so much as a sniff of attention.
The Grace is a brawny layout -- certainly long for the average player and it's just the same rendition of hole after hole after hole. I certainly think Eugene Grace and the mega facility that is Saucon Valley played a major role in the course being rated in the first place.
Bill, you said it best -- the Grace is the 3rd course there -- behind the likes of the Old and Weyhill.
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Matt,
You asked why it was rated in the top 100 in the 80's, and I suggested the conditioning was a major reason. You think those ratings were purely based on architecture?
It is brawny in places but certainly not repetitive. Not sure how you came to that conclusion. The stretch of holes from the strategic par 5 10th through the par 3 14th is not brawny at all, requiring accuracy, not length. All the par 5's require thought and have a really good element of risk-reward. The greens are big with tilt, not a loy of movement, but with high green speed they are chellenging and fair. It is a good, not great, golf course. Any course with a good Eden can't be all bad!
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Bill:
If you check out the rating criteria from years back for Digest you'll see conditioning was much less the key item -- although I don't doubt people amplified it as they saw fit.
Bill, for God's sake -- architecture needs to be the first among equals when all other elements are considered.
Somehow I don't see the style of Gordon / re: Grace Course fitting in with so many other courses of true compelling architecture. Grace reminds me of such brawny layouts like Bellerive, Firestone / South, Medinah #3, etc, etc. You also have land that is quite ho-hum and not really special when held against the likes of Old and Weyhill.
Bill, the issue for a top 100 placement is not that it is simply "good" -- but that it provides something that is truly above the best of the best. Grace is not that good -- have you played HV or been to a few of other interior Phila courses. In years past they didn't even get a sniff from the Digest ratings. Grace has its moments -- I didn't say the course was a dog -- but the issue is about top 100 placement.
On the Doak scale for me -- Grace would be no more than a 5 -- anybody seeing it as a 7 or higher needs to really see more golf -- especially in the Keystone state for a comparison purpose.
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Bill:
Bill, for God's sake -- architecture needs to be the first among equals when all other elements are considered.
No argument from me, I agree that architecture should be #1. I was merely trying to explain why I thought it was rated that high 25 years ago. I also think that style was much more in vogue in the 80's. Many of the bunkers on the Grace course are immense. I think there may have been a "wow" factor when raters first saw it. Just a guess.
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Bill:
What the Digest ratings show -- is how a course, once rated, can remain far beyond the time it should have been there to start with.
Grace is a relic of a time -- long since gone. The architecture elements simply have not carried forward in time well. Have to say one of my major disappointments was playing there after hearing so much about it previously.
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One of the more interesting elements on the Gordon discussion is how a certain design style can simply lose its momentum as time passes. No doubt the Gordon style -- the big greens with even larger traps -- was emblematic of a few people designing at the same time he did.
Clearly, that style has waned over the course of time and many people -- with few exceptions -- are calling for its return.
What can be learned from this? The passage of time really is the indicator of true greatness.
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Matt,
That's well put.
I remember a course in Grand Island, NY - River Oaks, designed in the 70's by Von Hagge. It has all the elements of 70's architecture (artificial, tons of faux mounds, big flat greens)... Stuff you wouldn't see today.
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Dan:
Thankfully, there has been a desire by many clubs to bring back to life those elements which were originally part of their make-up.
so many were changed during the 50's and 60's in order to reflect the given hand that was called in and few clubs at that time really understood why their original layout was so good to start with.
credit the work of people like Ron Forse, Ron Pritchard, Gil Hanse, et al -- who have been diligent in bringing back to life so many clubs that made such ill-informed choices.
Dan, there are a few Gordon layouts of note -- some are on the pennsy side of the delaware -- on the jersey side i have always been a fan of a place like buena vista.
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Matt - I'm sure there are good Gordon designs. I probably played a clunker.