Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Mark_Rowlinson on November 24, 2007, 07:26:29 AM
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You turm up hoping to play a round at a top-class course and are told that the main course is closed for the day, but that you may play the second course. At which clubs would you be least disappointed (perhaps equally happy) to play the second course?
Royal Melbourne East? Winged Foot East? Sunningdale New? St Andrews New? Olympic Ocean? Merion West? Berkshire Blue? Gleneagles Queen's?
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Baltusrol Upper, more fun and interesting than Lower. Or WFE.
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I went to Winged Foot once and ended up playing the East that day because my host had a bad knee and couldn't walk the West course. I was absolutely delighted with the course and found it more enjoyable than its better-known sister course. Interestingly, they are both equally challenging courses which in my opinion is odd for a club to want. If a club is family oriented, my ideal is for one course to be a championship caliber course while the other is an interesting even quirky design that is shorter and playable for juniors starting out, women and seniors.
I've played both Baltusrol courses and find the upper course to be a much better design, and more exciting to play. This is especially true after the fairways were narrowed and the bunkers pinched in as well on the Lower Course. It is rather dull now. I was unimpressed with their signature par 3 over the water. I, for one, would rather have width and angles than a narrow singular strategy golf course on a regular basis. I can see why guests would want to come and play the golf course set up for a major event, but why change the golf course to better suit guests than members?
Merion West fulfills my wishes for a great second course in a single club. It wasn't designed that way in the beginning. It was also considered a championship course. The 1916 Amateur championship committee had a difficult time deciding upon the East or West course as the match play course. It is interesting to consider that back then, the East at par 73 was considered equally difficult to the West with its par of 70. Of course today, the 5989 yard course is more of an enjoyable course for men and the primary course for juniors, women and seniors. It is a delight to play with small greens, lots of undulation and elevation change and beautiful old trees. The course is almost unchanged since 1914 with a throwback sort of feel.
Ed Baker and some other Charles River guys were down to play the East Course (Dave Miller couldn't get away from business demands). The East was closed due to heavy rains. You could see the disappointment on their faces when told the East was closed. We tried to get a hold of Tom Paul to play Gulph Mills bt couldn't reach anyone. When I suggested playing the West course, you could tell they thought they were in for a great disappointment. Well, Bill Dow joined us and we played in very windy conditions with gusts above 50 mph. They had a blast and their reservations were soon wiped away by the fascinating little other course at Merion. Everyone comes away with a warm feeling for the course and a desire to come back. Scores are nearly always a lot higher than one would think looking at the scorecard and to a person, they want to come back and shoot a low score relative to their game. However, it is a sneaky hard course and the perfect second course to the famed East Course.
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Mark,
How's it going? I haven't played Oympic or Melbourne. I would pick Sunningdale New as the best second course of the ones you named. A first time player would be hard pressed to say which is better Old or New.
I also like the Edinburg at Wentworth.
Cheers
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Although I agree with Wayne about the Upper (or second) at Baltusrol is arguably the better of the two, I would throw Canoe Brook, Westchester, and Philly Cricket into the mix as great primary courses with fine second courses as well. My vote would have to be Baltusrol!
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Haven't played the South, but Oakland Hills North was a very enjoyable course. Had I not tried to overpower it, I think it would have been a good course to score on. Quite a bit shorter than it's championship brother, but in immaculate shape with some neat risk/reward holes. (Thinking of a drivable par 4 on the back 9 that's on the edge of the property).
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Both courses at World Woods are very good. The Pine Barrens course is the better of the two but Rolling Oaks is also well worth seeing.
At Forest Highlands I also thought the Meadow course was a very pleasant surprise as a easier to walk second course. The Canyon is fabulous but the Meadow is no slouch at all and very possibly an Arizona top 10 in its own right.
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I'm curious to see the renovated version, but Olympia Fields South Course was a ball when I played it in '96.
Ken
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I must admit to preferring the Blue course at the Berkshire to the Red.
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I would imagine any of the 3 courses at Bandon would be more than acceptable to salvage the day if one of the others were closed.
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Since most of the obvious ones have been mentioned, for the average public player there is Bethpage Red.
What most people don't know is that Bethpage is the ONLY facility in America that has had THREE courses host national championships of the USGA. In 1936 both the Red and Blue courses were used for the Public Links championship.
One can even enjoy much of the original Blue by spending a day on both the Blue & Yellow courses. The only surviving Tillinghast "Reef Hole" is #12 on the Yellow and, quite frankly, the 2nd hole of the Blue is an all-world par-4 that rivals almost anything on either the Black or Red.
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Good one's have been mentioned.
Here are some others. I would rather play Wentworth East than West. The West is a long slog and the East has some neat green complexes.
I'd be disappointed not to Play Saunton East but could settle for West.
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I played both courses at Sunningdale and Berkshire well over 20 years ago. I thought the New at Sunningdale was every bit as good as the Old. My memories of Berkshire are a bit more hazy, but I recall the 2 courses there being equally good. I would have no problem playing the "2nd course" at either club on a regular basis.
Another public facility with 2 courses is Torrey Pines. The North course does not have the length or challenge of the South, but it might be more fun to play.
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How about Oak Hill? And frankly Medinah # 1 is more fun than #3.
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The best "second" courses I've played are at Royal Melbourne, Olympic and Walton Heath. Royal Melbourne is easily the best of the bunch. I did think that the second course at Walton Heath was a noticable letdown, it was less interesting (though I played both courses on the same day in the rain and I may have just been too soaked to care by the end of the day). One other "second" course of note is the Gold course at Congressional...it's not as good as the Blue course, but it's a fine course nonetheless.
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One other "second" course of note is the Gold course at Congressional...it's not as good as the Blue course, but it's a fine course nonetheless.
Good call. I didn't think about it but Art Hills did a very good job a few years ago on the course.
A relatively unknown is the second course at Woodmont CC a half and hour away from Congressional.
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I bring guests, to Saucon Valley, and many say the THIRD course, Weyhill, is their favorite.
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Medinah#1 is an enjoyable and testing course. Quite a bit more enjoyable than trying to hit 2 irons into greens on the #3 course that warrant 8 irons.
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How about showing up at MPCC to play the Shore and being told you have to play the Dunes?
Or how about showing up at MPCC to play the Dunes and being told you have to play the Shore?
In my opinion, a win win...
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Pumpkin Ridge's two courses are about equal, though not completely GolfClubAtlas approved venues.
I've heard more people play Los Angeles CC - South than the famous and difficult North course.
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I thought Royal Melbourne East was a fantastic golf course, and much better than anticipated, likely because the west garners so much attention. Considering the well-known "composite" course consists of half a dozen holes from the East course, I shouldn't have been surprised. However, the "composite" does not include any holes from the strong stretch of 9-13, which is a testament to the golf course's overall strength.
TK
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I agree about WFE. Same with Merion West What great places!
Here's one I would be jumping for joy if they told me I couldn't play it's more popular twin--Torrey Pines North. It's a far better course, more enjoyable walk, etc. And I'm not just saying that because of the horrible Rees Jones remodel which did improve some holes but ruined others.
Of course, count me as one that wouldn't be depressed either if I was led to believe I was playing LACC and ended up at Armand Hammer/Holmby Park/Tori Pines!
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How about showing up at MPCC to play the Shore and being told you have to play the Dunes?
Or how about showing up at MPCC to play the Dunes and being told you have to play the Shore?
In my opinion, a win win...
Scott (and Bob)
which is the second course?
James B
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Sunningdale New is the tougher course. Berkshire Blue and WH New are both cracking courses.
Like everyone else I was suprised just how good RM East is, ust a shame about it being spread over 3 paddocks. Not normally a problem but last time I was there the gates failed on the middle paddack!
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Where would the New at St Andrews rank if it weren't next door to the Old? I really loved the green site at #6 with the bowl in front and view of the Auld Gray Town behind, and the pitch shot into #8 par 5 when the pin's behind the mound.
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On the Mornington Peninsula there is The Moonah duo. The Open course is the main event but I found The Legends course to be more varied and interesting.
Also at the National club, if the Moonah course is number one, then there is the choice between the Old course and the Ocean. I had a preferance here for the Old.
I have only played these courses twice so they are limited impressions. Perhaps some of the contibutors from across the pond would like to comment.
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Olympic-Ocean.
From walking the courses, it appeared to be a tad less demanding from a shot-making standpoint than the Lake, but it's more exposed to the elements and packed with quality holes.
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In the courses I've seen - Sunningdale (New) would get my vote followed by say Walton Heath (New) and St. Andrews (New).
In Australia - one cant go past Royal Melbourne (East) though I wouldn't mind a choice of either National (Old) / (Moonah) courses.
I look forward to seeing Claytons rework of the Peninsula South course. The Peninsula is interesting because historically the North course was somewhat considered the lesser of the two courses. Since Clayton's re-work in 2002 the North course has been reborn into the premier layout at the club.
A couple more than conceptually that I would like to see happen one day - a second Barnbougle couse and the Fingal course at St. Andrews Beach.
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Ballybunion New has a couple of quirky holes but also a few great ones along the sea-possibly as or more difficult as the Old.
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The Valley course at Royal Portrush merits consideration in this category.
Ken
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Ken, I felt the valley course was decent but given the caliber of Portstewart or Castlerock hard to justify missing out on either of these if time is an issue.
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How about showing up at MPCC to play the Shore and being told you have to play the Dunes?
Or how about showing up at MPCC to play the Dunes and being told you have to play the Shore?
In my opinion, a win win...
Scott (and Bob)
which is the second course?
James B
James,
The original is the Dunes by Raynor, circa 1925. He died after the first nine and it was completed by Robert Hunter. I feel the par three 10th has much about it that could be attributed to MacKenzie, as he had some sort of affiliation or partnership with Hunter at that time.
Rees Jones did the renovation in 1999 which I consider to be a great success.
The original Shore course was built in 1960 for $150,000.00 by Bob Baldock, and a very enjoyable course it was too. The Strantz course, apart from the routing of the first four and last two holes was a completely brand new golf course that probably cost about ninety times that.
Bob
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What most people don't know is that Bethpage is the ONLY facility in America that has had THREE courses host national championships of the USGA. In 1936 both the Red and Blue courses were used for the Public Links championship.
I think Bandon Dunes Resort can claim this as well today.
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I think when it comes to the heathland courses that both Sunningdale New and Walton Heath New are more interesting architcturally than their Older 'brothers'.
Sunningdale New (especially the area around the 6th and that part of the course) is much more a heathland landscape than the Old Course - even though it is still very different than that from the original design (judging from old photos).
Walton Heath New is relatively close to its original design whereas the Old has been changed significantly over the years. From some case studies I did there this year, the committees seems very aware of this and are trying to preserve the layout of the New course.
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The best one two punches I've ever expereienced are Winged Foot and Walton Heath. Throw a towel over these courses. I recall how Walton Heath used a combination of holes for the 81 Ryder Cup. And while there isn't a bad hole on WFW, I'm sure the same could be done for events they host. Merion West is a wonderful second course that accommodates players of all abilities (as compared to its older sister) and one that no matter how good you are you will delight in playing. I can't think of a better way to warm up for the East Course.
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Merion West. Not only is it a helluva golf course, it's a relaxed and more casual atmosphere. The type of place that's perfect for that late day outing where you race the sun to the 18th green, laughing and having a blast all the way. Some pretty wonderful architecture there too!
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Conversely, Stonewall's new course gets very little play. I always see gofers on the original course, but very rarely on the new. The parking lot is often empty.
Strange, because it's really a beautiful place.
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I haven't played Winged Foot or Merion, or the Ocean Course at Olympic Club for that matter, but LA Country Club South is plenty solid, as is Medinah #1. And I have to put in a vote for the South Course at Olympia Fields (bias duly noted), especially in its Steve Smyers renovated/restored form as it opens next spring. A spectacular transformation.
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How about Crail? I think that the Balcomie Links is probably more historically interesting rather than a great course. The Craighead Links, in contrast, gets very little love and is underplayed but on my only visit I thought it was a really interesting course and tough. I'd suggest that whereas with many of the clubs identified in this thread the "first" course is tough and the "second" more fun and quirky the reverse is true at Crail.
p.s. I'm not suggesting that either course is a truly great course but the contrast is notable.
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What about the second 18 at St. George's Hill? Is the current 3d nine simply half of the former 'new' course there, or was there substantial re-design after WW2?
Would the 2nd 18 at The Addington have belonged in Mark's original list?
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What about the second 18 at St. George's Hill? Is the current 3d nine simply half of the former 'new' course there, or was there substantial re-design after WW2?
Would the 2nd 18 at The Addington have belonged in Mark's original list?
from what i saw of st georges hill, the 3rd (green) nine doesn't reach the heights of the proper 18... it seems more crowded and less playable... some lovely holes all the same... i've no idea whetehr there was a redesign or whether this nine was exactly one half of the old 2nd course...
walton heath and sunningdale are the two that immediately spring to my mind although there's an interesting one in ireland at powerscourt (www.powerscourt.ie)... although obviously not in the top tier of courses that we have been talking about, there are nevertheless two very good parkland layouts where the newer of the courses (designed by david kidd in 2003) is actually a far better test than the older course (designed by peter mcevoy in 1996)...
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Sunningdale New (especially the area around the 6th and that part of the course) is much more a heathland landscape than the Old Course - even though it is still very different than that from the original design (judging from old photos).
Agreed Philip; in fact here is the 6th.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v440/058460/sunningdale6.jpg?t=1196160049)
I agree, it would be nice to get the new back to its former open heath glory, or at the very least start to control the trees. I think the 6th above would be a truly great par five without the trees especially those on the right side of the fairway.
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Sunningdale New (especially the area around the 6th and that part of the course) is much more a heathland landscape than the Old Course - even though it is still very different than that from the original design (judging from old photos).
Agreed Philip; in fact here is the 6th.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v440/058460/sunningdale6.jpg?t=1196160049)
I agree, it would be nice to get the new back to its former open heath glory, or at the very least start to control the trees. I think the 6th above would be a truly great par five without the trees especially those on the right side of the fairway.
marc, when was that photo taken?... i am sure that they have cleared a lot of those trees... i stood on the back tee at the 6th this summer and saw acres and acres of open heath... i'm convinced the 6th was framed in a sea of purple all around the dogleg...
...my memory may well be failing me...
...philip will put me right...
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Sunningdale New (especially the area around the 6th and that part of the course) is much more a heathland landscape than the Old Course - even though it is still very different than that from the original design (judging from old photos).
Agreed Philip; in fact here is the 6th.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v440/058460/sunningdale6.jpg?t=1196160049)
I agree, it would be nice to get the new back to its former open heath glory, or at the very least start to control the trees. I think the 6th above would be a truly great par five without the trees especially those on the right side of the fairway.
marc, when was that photo taken?... i am sure that they have cleared a lot of those trees... i stood on the back tee at the 6th this summer and saw acres and acres of open heath... i'm convinced the 6th was framed in a sea of purple all around the dogleg...
...my memory may well be failing me...
...philip will put me right...
According to my photo properties, June 2004. I had heard they were doing some tree clearance and indeed were in the process when I took the picture. I believe the intention was to restore the New back to open heath but to keep the trees and indeed promote the parkland feel on the Old. Don't quote me but I heard they were going after the ANGC look on the Old.
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That photo must be at least a couple of years old! The majority of those trees have indeed been removed (on both the left and right hand side).
From the tee you now can only see a couple of trees just right of the fairway about landing distance for the drive, and then all the trees on the right hand side have been removed so the sweep and camber of the fairway up to the green can be seen. The bunkers around the green have also been remodelled.
The trees on the left have been significantly cleared so that the stanza between the 6th, 7th and 8th is a lot barer. Heather has been planted in the area.
The New has seen a lot of tree removal, and more is scheduled.
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To: Philip Young
Re: Your 11/24 post about Bethpage having three courses which have hosted USGA events.
Hosting three (or more) USGA events on different courses at the same club has also occurred at Batusrol. The first few championships were hosted on the Old Course (NIE) prior to 1922. An Open and an Amateur were hosted on the Upper after that. Many, many USGA events have been conducted on the Lower.
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I bring guests, to Saucon Valley, and many say the THIRD course, Weyhill, is their favorite.
You can't go wrong with #2 or #3 at Saucon...IMO, both contain more interesting and challenging holes than the Old Course.