Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Josh Smith on November 11, 2007, 01:52:03 PM
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I was excited to see some bunkers unlike any I had ever seen before at Rustic Canyon last year. Hardly enough room for both you and your ball to be in there at the same time. I remember one on the front nine and one on the back. Geoff and Gil broke the mold there, I wonder what inspired the scale shift.
Anybody seen bunkers built so small before? Anyone have photos of their favorite small bunkers.
Josh
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Josh, there used to be the "angry man and his niblick" bunker on #18 Bandon Dunes that actually had a rake that was cut down for use. It may still be there but the rendering shows two bunker where it used to be solo. Anyway, it was a good one with not much of a chance of long advancement.
(http://www.bandondunesgolf.com/images/bandon_hole18_000.jpg)
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Josh,
the 9th at Kilspindie is a drivable (with the right wind) par four. about thirty yards short of the green is a tiny bunker that from memory can't be much more than 5 or 6 feet in diameter. Dispite it's tiny size because of the slopes around it it seems to gather anything within a large radius. Neither is it deep but it still leaves a semi blind recovery shot to a green quite a bit above you with OOB a little way through the back. I always fall into trying to reach the green, I nearly always end up in the bunker and the only times I seem to make par is if I mishit the drive. I always leave the green vowing to lay up next time but never manage it. Great bunker, great short par 4.
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Josh,
Interesting post.
We built a number of small bunkers, similar to your description above, at Sagebrush. Thinking quickly, there are tiny bunkers golfers will have difficultly comfortably playing a shot from at holes 1, 2, 3, 7, 14 and 17.
Aesthetically, the tiny bunkers provide nice contrast considering a larger number of MASSIVE sand hazards feature throughout the Sagebrush course!
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Played a few weeks ago in TN at The Honors Course. I noticed a number of tiny pot bunkers greenside in some unusual spots. About the only thing I would change from this world class course. As an aside I played with Chris Cupit, who in addition to being a helluva golfer is an even better host and a real hoot to spend a day on the course with.
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Not sure about breaking the mold. Pete Dye has built many a small Pot bunker. He even hides them. Perhaps thats where I started to get his humor.
There are others too. Bunkerhill boys built the smallest one I have ever seen on the front ride side of the approach on #9 at Bayside. Heck, Dick Daley made a fantastic up and down par out of it, less than a month ago.
In the image below, The bunker can't be easily seen. It is about four or five feet left of the right greenside bunker. You can barely makeout the tiny depression.
(http://www.baysidegolf.com/site_images/219/yardage/186/full/9.jpg)
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Jack,
Why would you get rid of these small bunkers at the Honors Course? They seem like a pretty cool feature. Do you see them as "unfair"?
PC
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Josh,
The one at the 10th at Pine Valley is supposed to be an awesome, tiny bunker.
You guys would all know its nickname.
Kind of a cool feature.
I haven't seen too many really small bunkers, which probably why I like them so much.
Originality.
Cheers,
Jordan
p.s. Josh- How have you been? Still painting? Cheers,
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I like this one, at the rear of a green at a well known course. Bonus points for correctly identifying the hole and the course:
(http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e238/spdb1/PV/IMG_0972.jpg)
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PV #12 is a reasonable guess ;)
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There were some little ones around the course at Long Shadow. The one I remember well is the small one in front of the green on #10.
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Paul, I must admit I never had to face ashot from one of the tiny pot bunkers-although I visited my share of the other sandy areas. My point is purely architectural homoginaity. I just didnt feel they were needed.
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My favorite on a course that I have played is the one in front of the green on the 2nd at Tobacco Road. It's like a deep crease or fold in the earth. I have only played there once but I hit an approach on the front of the green with too much spin and it ended up in the bunker and then my first bunker shot, which I thought was decent, came back into the bunker.
I haven't played PV yet but the Devil's Sphincter comes to mind.
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#5 at Grand Island
(http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb184/jhancock42/P8260029.jpg?t=1194833331)
Joe
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PV #12 is a reasonable guess ;)
Mark:
It is quite reasonable. Right course, wrong hole, though. I think I know the bunker you are talking about (left of 12 green), and this one is smaller.
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I like this one, at the rear of a green at a well known course. Bonus points for correctly identifying the hole and the course:
(http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e238/spdb1/PV/IMG_0972.jpg)
SPDB,
Is that the one at Pine Valley that is behind #13 green on the way to the regular 14th tee? If so, then the only reason I recognize it is because I almost fell into it once walking backwards off the back of #13 green.
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Smallest I've seen and probably the toughest to beat, if I remember correctly, was a 2-foot by 1 foot scrape with a little hump in front of it behind the 3rd green at Old Marsh.
Just google-earthed it and it looks like it's gone. Someone probably took a divot and filled in the bunker.
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Josh:
There has been some discussion with and amongst those who built Rustic Canyon about the philosophical utility of small bunkers in various places.
The theory is that if a bunker is small enough and placed in such a way that it becomes something of a "line of charm" thing with enough non-risk space around it a golfer will be more likely to take responsibility if he gets in it.
It's an interesting theory and philosophy and one I'd expect can have its intended effect. The key is not necessarily that it's small but the placement of it and the amount of non-risk area around it.
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I like the "sliver" bunker on #17 at HarbourTown. It's not tiny, but rather long and narrow. If you're in it most likely there's only one direction you can play out of it -- regardless of where the flag is.
My father-in-law found it and had to play away from the flag, then made a nice 15-fter for par. A great 1/2 shot penalty bunker.
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Chris:
Not the 13th either.
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Did anyone else think of Don Ho when seeing the title of this thread?
Tiny bunkers, in the line.
Makes me happy, makes me feel fine.
Tiny bunkers, makes me warm all over.
With the feel'in that I won't blame the archie till the end of time.
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I did, but I wasn't going to admit it. ;D
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As I recall, I hit into a bunch of tiny, hidden bunkers in a rain-soaked round at Southerness. Most would not let you advance the ball in the direction you wanted, and a couple required one foot outside. We had no caddies (only two golfers on the course were me and a friend. . . our third declined, staying back at the B & B to drink tea and read). One of best days of a 9-day trip.
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Here's one at Rivermont. BTW, there is sand at the bottom of that...thing and it's NOT the smallest bunker on the course. Of course I'm biased but I love the juxtaposition of its size with the 6,000 sq. ft. monster in the background :D
(http://gallery.mac.com/ctcupit/100008/G7LS6443/web.jpg)
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Chris:
Personally I'm glad to see an architect mix up the look and style of bunkering as dramatically as was done on that hole just above. I'm afraid, however, that some might say the one is too "out of character" with the other.
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Tom,
Here's the hole from a different angle--there is a nice mix of sizes and shapes I think. But I don't think the effect of being in the tiny bunker with the massive one as a backdrop is lessened in any way :)
(http://gallery.mac.com/ctcupit/100008/11fairwaybunker/web.jpg)
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Chris,
Is that a balloon on the pin or a Merion imitation wicker basket?
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It is a hand made wicker basket from Charleston, SC. I was looking through some old golf magazines and came across a Stumpfs Magazine that sold all sorts of golf course equipment. I was looking for something different for my course and soon realized that "back in the day", pennants, streamers, balls and baskets all adorned the tops of flagsticks--no real standard flag early on.
In this catalog from 1931 or so they even sold "Wicker Balloon Baskets" for $7.50 which look just like those that adorn Merion's East course. Interstingly, the advertisement trumpeted the fact that the baskets were very visible compared to flags.
In fact, on a parkland course with very little wind, I suspect the benefit of being able to see the basket as opposed to a limp flag was more of an advantage to some than the disadvantage of not being able to guage the wind!!
On calm days it's easier to hit the basket with your rangefinder too :D :(
Sea Island in Georgia also uses baskets and a public course off of I-85 also used them--Southerness??, maybe.
My baskets are a little different--I use yellow instead of red/orange paint ;) and they are a little larger than Merion's. We will have Rivermont baskets 2.0 that will continue the weave to the base and perhaps be a little smaller and sturdier. I have been pleased that our order of 40 baskets has made it through a full season in decent shape!
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Chris,
Those baskets look great. I really like the yellow. What is the other color on the pins?
Flynn had the patent on the baskets at Merion. I don't think the club used them when the Ardmore course first opened but did so just before the 1916 Amateur. I'm not sure where the concept came from. While there is some educated speculation, I don't think any information has come to light that answers that question.
Here is the patent drawing from the approved patent from Feb 1916
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2230/2035316157_838c446370.jpg)
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Very cool--has that patent expired ;D??
We used black and yellow for our colors and the yellow does stand out very well.
I was very curious to see the Merion basket when I played and it seemed much sturdier than mine. I had to "crib" off of Sea Island's and they just aren't the same!
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Flynn's daughter's attorneys are going to be visiting you tomorrow ;)
For a time, Winged Foot and Huntingdon Valley used baskets as well.
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SPDB,
I believe I was in it. Not sure of the number, but I think it was at the back of the right green in a two green hole. #9 ?
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By the way, Chris, I sure would like to see more photos of your course. Any chance you might profile it for us?
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Yep--I just have to get a little better with my pics and finish up my writing. Here's a link to some pics from my new computer toy!
Sometimes clicking the thumbnails come up bigger than viewing the slideshow:
http://web.mac.com/ctcupit/Rivermont_Pics/Welcome.html
I still have some editing to do and some better pics to insert but its a start.
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Played a few weeks ago in TN at The Honors Course. I noticed a number of tiny pot bunkers greenside in some unusual spots. About the only thing I would change from this world class course. As an aside I played with Chris Cupit, who in addition to being a helluva golfer is an even better host and a real hoot to spend a day on the course with.
Jack,
I really like the little volcano pot bunker behind the 6th green. I assume it's there to theoretically punish the player who is long with his second into the par five, but find it highly unlikely that a ball would roll up and into it through the zoysia. A little whimsy on a very difficult golf course.
MIke
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SPDB,
I believe I was in it. Not sure of the number, but I think it was at the back of the right green in a two green hole. #9 ?
BINGO!!!
Actually half bingo. It is behind the left green on 9.
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Yep--I just have to get a little better with my pics and finish up my writing. Here's a link to some pics from my new computer toy!
Sometimes clicking the thumbnails come up bigger than viewing the slideshow:
http://web.mac.com/ctcupit/Rivermont_Pics/Welcome.html
I still have some editing to do and some better pics to insert but its a start.
Nice photos! Can't wait to read the commentary.
I just visited the web site and the memberships look to be a pretty reasonable deal for the Atlanta area. How many members are there? Not trying to pry, so if you aren't comfortable answering on a public forum I completely understand.
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Played a few weeks ago in TN at The Honors Course. I noticed a number of tiny pot bunkers greenside in some unusual spots. About the only thing I would change from this world class course. As an aside I played with Chris Cupit, who in addition to being a helluva golfer is an even better host and a real hoot to spend a day on the course with.
Jack,
I really like the little volcano pot bunker behind the 6th green. I assume it's there to theoretically punish the player who is long with his second into the par five, but find it highly unlikely that a ball would roll up and into it through the zoysia. A little whimsy on a very difficult golf course.
MIke
Michael,
I've been there since 1991 and have never seen anyone in that bunker...yet. I'm supposed to play Sunday and in addition to freezing my nuts off I have now just exponentially increased my chances of hitting it in that little bastard. :D
G*d I hope it warms up--I can't drink and play.
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Yep--I just have to get a little better with my pics and finish up my writing. Here's a link to some pics from my new computer toy!
Sometimes clicking the thumbnails come up bigger than viewing the slideshow:
http://web.mac.com/ctcupit/Rivermont_Pics/Welcome.html
I still have some editing to do and some better pics to insert but its a start.
Nice photos! Can't wait to read the commentary.
I just visited the web site and the memberships look to be a pretty reasonable deal for the Atlanta area. How many members are there? Not trying to pry, so if you aren't comfortable answering on a public forum I completely understand.
No problem. I have 475 full golf members who can play anytime--right now there is a very small (1-2 month) waiting list. There is a cap of 475 full golf members. In addition to those members I have 100 senior golf members who are 55 or older and who have weekday golf privileges only. We'll do about 36,000 rounds this year.
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Yep--I just have to get a little better with my pics and finish up my writing. Here's a link to some pics from my new computer toy!
Sometimes clicking the thumbnails come up bigger than viewing the slideshow:
http://web.mac.com/ctcupit/Rivermont_Pics/Welcome.html
I still have some editing to do and some better pics to insert but its a start.
Chris,
Saw the Mont during contstruction but have not been out since. I really love what you Mike have done. Nice job.
Just curious if you know what software Duckworth used to achieve the "oil" look in his photos.
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Oh ! That left .
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Sorry for the diversion back to baskets. San Francisco GC used some sort of basket as well. Here is a 1927 photo clearly showing the basket. Maybe Tillinghast exported Flynn/Wilson's concept to the Left Coast.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2083/2040455172_72cea16836.jpg)
Other baskets include St. Germain (is this Wisconsin or France?)
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2418/2040455426_2cb842a3d5.jpg)
Huntingdon Valley:
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2064/2039660271_77690b064c.jpg)
Stoke Poges:
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2225/2040455462_4926faed7f.jpg)
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I found this tiny bunker at St. Louis CC. It is the left side of the par 3 12th, Crater. Right club, wrong direction. An example of an engineered look.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2075/2055179998_746f463012_b.jpg)
Here's a tiny bunker on another course with many large ones. An example of naturalism even though it is on a site with clay soil.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2398/2054982232_9ba70f444d_b.jpg)