Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Tim Gavrich on October 31, 2007, 09:55:04 PM
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It appears as if my father and I are going to spend about five or six days in Scotland this coming June. I believe we've secured a house in Crail. I've heard the Crail Golf Links is good. We're definitely try to get lucky with TOC, but other than that, we're unsure of where else we might play. Therefore, I am looking for suggestions. I've read a great deal about many different courses here, but Scottish geography is not (yet) my forté. What are the main recommendations in terms of GCA quality?
I thought I read somewhere on here that history aside, the New Course at St. Andrews is better GCA-wise.
Is it worth it to investigate some of the newer Scottish gems, namely Kingsbarns and the Castle Course at St. Andrews? Or would it be better to stick to the older guard?
We don't have any hookups; I'm not sure what Scottish Open rota courses are accessible, but I'm really intrigued by Carnoustie in particular.
Thanks.
--Tim Gavrich
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I didn't play Crail but looked at it...not nearly as visually appealing as some of the others.
Carnoustie is close by and well worth it and Kingsbarns is a great day with spectacular holes (minus the history). I found the New Course to be not nearly as interesting or intriguing as the Old Course. My father in-law enjoyed The Dukes Course as a change of pace...
Hope this helps.
Bart
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Tim,
1.enter the lottery at TOC very day.
2,3.Play North Berwick for sure and Muirfield if you can(go to their website) I was able to secure access for a second group by playing with the member at Muirfield that rented me my flat in North Berwick.
(Play Dunbar or Gullane as a backup if no Muirfield)
4-8. New Course,Carnoustie,Kingsbarns,Crail,Elie
That puts you at 8 courses (you will win TOC lottery one day)
Fill in with Castle Course,Lundin Links and you're at 10 and you've only traveled one tough 36 hole day to the North Berwick area. The rest is pretty close to Crail.
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It appears that the Castle course doesn't open until June 28, so you can wipe that one out.
If money is no object:
Jeff's advice was right, enter the ballot every day. You'll almost certainly be successful over 3-4 days. Other must plays would be Kingsbarns, Elie, the New and Eden courses.
Also try Carnoustie, Panmure and Monifieth on the other side of Dundee.
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TOC is mandatory, daily ballot every day. Walk it on Sunday if possible (it's closed).
Crail Balcomie is terrific, play both Crail courses in a 36 day is fun.
Lundin is very worthwhile.
New Course is fun and interesting but it's not the Old.
Kingsbarns is pricey but Martin Bonnar says it's a must play. ;)
Try to meet up with GCAers who are in the area - Martin, Chris Kane, who else?
It's great just to hang out there!
North Berwick and other East Lothian courses are a separate routing, through Edinburgh and east along the coast.
I'll be there in June too. What are your dates?
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Bill, I'm long gone - he can meet up with me when he comes to Melbourne!
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Tim, by all means play Crail Balcomie and Craighead - two very different courses but a LOT of fun and the best value I've seen in Scotland - TOC is mandatory but odds may be against you in prime season - I love Carnoustie and Kingsbarns but they are very pricey in US$ - I have not played anything else in immediate vicinity of Crail but Elie and Lundin are high on my list...I'm a member of a prominent course in Scotland and have played many of the bigger name courses but I keep recalling my days at Crail as among my favorites.
One other thing...Scotland is a very small country - North Berwick area excellent and very driveable but the drive to Turnberry/Troon/Prestwick/Western Gailes is also <3 hours and that 4some is as good as any on the planet (not to mention Barassie, Dundonald, Irvine...)
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Bill, I'm long gone - he can meet up with me when he comes to Melbourne!
So I guess you're not hanging at the Dunvegan any more then, right? ;D Just kidding!
I'll bet you miss St Andrews, it's a special place indeed.
I'd love to get over to see you in Melbourne. Next big trip is Buenos Aires end of January (with wife Kathleen for 40th anniversary!), then Scotland June 2008. Maybe 2009........ ;)
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Went with a group last year and we weren't all that crazy about Crail Balcomie. First 6 or 7 holes were good, couple in the middle, but last 4 holes really felt cramped and tacked on and not up to the quality of the rest of the course. (Eh, just one opinion.) Did not play Craighead.
We did enjoy Lundin Golf Club and I would second some recommendations on that.
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Tim
I'm not sure exactly when you are coming, but on 16-18 June the Budapest Cup (UK GCA.com gathering) will probably be held at Lundin Links and Elie. If you and your dad will be in Crail then, you would be very welcome to join us, for a found or two, or the whole event (5 rounds of Ryder Cup format match play).
If those dates don't fit, c'est la vie, but let me know, as I live less than an hour from Crail and maybe we could get together anyway.
As for places to play, obviously the Old Course by ballot is priority #1. After that, in rough order of quality you have, within 30 minutes:
1. Kingsbarns
2. New Course
3. Elie
4. Lundin
5. Eden
6. Ladybank
7. Crail (Balcomie)
8. Crail (Craighead)
In the same area, in rank order of quirk, you have:
1. Anstruther
2. Elie
3. Eden
4. Crail (Balcomie)
5. Lundin Ladies
Whatever happens, enjoy!
Rich
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Tim,
I used to play golf in that area a lot while at University of Dundee. I would definitely recommend Downfield - north of Dundee it was one of the local qualifying course for this years Open. Also it was my home course which I nicknamed it 'Wentworth of the North'. Constitently in a good nick in June.
Others not mentioned worth going to -
Scotscraig - North of St Andrews.
St Andrews - Jubilee
Leven Links.
Blairgowrie (Rosemount) - North of Dundee.
Montrose Links - one of the oldest courses in the world
Pitlochry - Over an hours drive up in the hills north of Perth
Carnoustie is one of my favourites but beware it can be one of the most tiring rounds of golf in your life beacuse you will need all the strength you have to hit so many long shots!
Elie is one of the most fun to play - only 2 par 3s and all par 4s - 5 of them are reachable off the tee.
All these courses mentioned I reckon you will definitely enjoy them
Ben
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If you're looking a little wider than Fife (Carnoustie, Downfield, Blairgowrie) then there are dozens of potential venues. I like Panmure. Alyth I remeber as a nice spot. There are all the East Lothian courses (Muirfield, Gullane, Kilspindie, Luffness) and you're not too far from Aberdeen (Royal Aberdeen, Murcar, Cruden Bay).
It would be great if you could join us for some (or all) of BUDA.
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Thanks for all the responses so far. It'd be wonderful to participate in the BUDA, but I suspect that we'll likely be gone by the time it starts, unfortunately. I think my dad was shooting to get there around the 7th or so and leave by the 13th or 14th, but our dates are not completely locked-in.
Cheers.
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Tim
I'm not sure exactly when you are coming, but on 16-18 June the Budapest Cup (UK GCA.com gathering) will probably be held at Lundin Links and Elie. If you and your dad will be in Crail then, you would be very welcome to join us, for a found or two, or the whole event (5 rounds of Ryder Cup format match play).
If those dates don't fit, c'est la vie, but let me know, as I live less than an hour from Crail and maybe we could get together anyway.
As for places to play, obviously the Old Course by ballot is priority #1. After that, in rough order of quality you have, within 30 minutes:
1. Kingsbarns
2. New Course
3. Elie
4. Lundin
5. Eden
6. Ladybank
7. Crail (Balcomie)
8. Crail (Craighead)
In the same area, in rank order of quirk, you have:
1. Anstruther
2. Elie
3. Eden
4. Crail (Balcomie)
5. Lundin Ladies
Whatever happens, enjoy!
Rich
Rich, I haven't played the Jubilee yet. Is it that far behind the New? Interested in your opinion.....
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So, I am going to put in a plug for a full day at Muirfield - you can get times easily on their web site. Play your own ball in either 4somes or 2somes in AM. Bring a jacket and tie and have lunch in the dining room - best lunch buffet I've had in along time - have a wee nip of Kummel and talk with a few of the members. You will not forget this experience.
Play 2ball 4somes in the afternoon - alternate shot with you and your dad - Muirfield is set up to play this game rather quickly. It is a great day!.
Alternative, play Muirfield in AM, have lunch and go to North Berwick in the afternoon. That's what we did last time there - another great day.
Have fun, and let us know how you liked it.
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Bill
Some people like the Jubilee. I don't. The routing feels contrived rather than natural, ther are far too many bland holes, and far too few memorable ones (maybe one or two for me). The Links Trust is trying to make people play the course if they want to have a chance on the Old. This tells me something.
Rich
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It appears as if my father and I are going to spend about five or six days in Scotland this coming June. I believe we've secured a house in Crail. I've heard the Crail Golf Links is good. We're definitely try to get lucky with TOC, but other than that, we're unsure of where else we might play. Therefore, I am looking for suggestions. I've read a great deal about many different courses here, but Scottish geography is not (yet) my forté. What are the main recommendations in terms of GCA quality?
I thought I read somewhere on here that history aside, the New Course at St. Andrews is better GCA-wise.
Is it worth it to investigate some of the newer Scottish gems, namely Kingsbarns and the Castle Course at St. Andrews? Or would it be better to stick to the older guard?
We don't have any hookups; I'm not sure what Scottish Open rota courses are accessible, but I'm really intrigued by Carnoustie in particular.
Thanks.
--Tim Gavrich
Tim, I've only lived here (St Andrew) for 3 months but please give me a call or email and I'd be happy to help with "free advice". In spite of another thread the food is great and the courses are available so dreams can come true.
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Bill
Some people like the Jubilee. I don't. The routing feels contrived rather than natural, ther are far too many bland holes, and far too few memorable ones (maybe one or two for me). The Links Trust is trying to make people play the course if they want to have a chance on the Old. This tells me something.
Rich
Our (unsuccessful :'( ) application did indeed require playing two courses, the second to be either the New or the Jubilee, I think at their discretion.
I enjoyed the New but it ain't the Old. So the Jubilee is far from being the New. Hmmm.
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So the Jubilee is far from being the New. Hmmm.
You got it, Buckaroo!
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If you want to head in- land by 1-1.5 hours, I really enjoyed Gleneagles Kings. Didn't play either Queens (hear it's also very good nor the other one that Nicklaus built and will host the '14 Ryder Cup.
I will echo what others said re: Kingsbarns being a must must.
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If you're not averse to staying somewhere other than St. Andrews I highly recommend Cruden Bay and Royal Aberdeen (it's a little far for 36 holes and driving all in one day). Cruden Bay is one of my favorite courses in Scotland.
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Bill
I have only played the Jubilee and the New once each (on our Reverse Old Course trip earlier this year) but I wouldn't be quite as tough as Rich. This may be because the New didn't reach my somewhat high expectations and the Jubilee exceeded my somewhat low ones. But I would say if TOC is a 10, the New is a 7 and the Jubilee a 6.
Matt
PS: Shane says hi
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Tim,
There was a great article in Golf Week a while back about playing the "unknown" courses in Scotland. Basically, this guy showed up at the airport with his clubs and no plans whatsoever. He just played courses that the locals recommended.
I have a scanned copy of it if you'd like me to email it to you. Drop me a PM.......
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Bill
I have only played the Jubilee and the New once each (on our Reverse Old Course trip earlier this year) but I wouldn't be quite as tough as Rich. This may be because the New didn't reach my somewhat high expectations and the Jubilee exceeded my somewhat low ones. But I would say if TOC is a 10, the New is a 7 and the Jubilee a 6.
Matt
PS: Shane says hi
Please tell her "hi" back! It was fun meeting you two in Scotland. How much longer are you going to be in China? If you get to Mission Hills for the World Cup, the US will be represented by Boo Weekly and Heath Slocum, high school teammates from near Pensacola. Maybe you will get a chance to meet them, Boo might be the funniest guy on the tour and can really play!
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I agree with Matt. Perhaps I need another look at the New, but I didn't rate it as highly as Rich did. It was better than the Jubilee, but only just.
I don't feel in any hurry to visit the New again when there are so many great courses just within an hour's drive of St. Andrews that I have yet to play, so giving it another look may take a decade or two :)
I have found the Jubilee to be ideal as a course to play after flying in if you are staying in town, because you can just walk straight over and play it with little wait, and it isn't terribly expensive. Odds are pretty good you can get on with some locals, especially if like I did you ask to be paired up with some who would be willing to play with a Yank. Its a great way to get yourself reacquainted with shots that you don't play too often in the US, like the putter from 25 yards off the green and the straight up sand shot over the high lip of a tiny pot bunker. And you can start tuning up the distance control on the 100-150 yard low half punch that will get such a workout during a visit to Scotland.
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I am about as close to my Dad as anyone can be. He is one of my three heroes. The other two are my children. I did not take my Dad on a golf vacation until he was 85. We went to Northern MI to play Crystal Downs and the Kingsley Club. They were the best three days I had spent in many years. As I look back on those days, it didn't make any difference where we played. We could have played in a cherry orchard. You have a lot of suggestions for where to play. Any of them will yield a good trip. What will make the trip great is not how or where you play but with whom you are playing. The most special times in my golfing life have been with my son. Enjoy the courses you play but cherish the moments with your Dad more. The courses will still be there long after your Dad isn't
Have a great trip. And regardless of what the thread on pictures says, take some. You will treasure those more than any scorecard of sweater you might purchase.
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Hi Bill
We most likely won't make it to the World Cup but we are going down to Shanghai this week to see the HSBC Champions tournament (www.hsbcgolf.com), which has a great field: Mickelson, Els, Cabrera, Vijay, Goosen, Harrington. Also going to watch Federer and Nadal at the Masters Cup. Big weekend of sport in Shanghai!
It's our wedding anniversary too this weekend. Don't I have an understanding spouse, to agree to a weekend of watching world class sport as an anniversary getaway?!
We'll probably be here in China another year or so. Looking to get back to Scotland next spring but haven't made any plans yet. I take it you didn't get your spots on the ballot?
Regards
Matt
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We'll probably be here in China another year or so. Looking to get back to Scotland next spring but haven't made any plans yet. I take it you didn't get your spots on the ballot?
No, we did not get on via the early application, but will try the ballot and early show up routes. The good news is we will be in Dornoch for four days and have tee times on RDGC 2X and Nairn once. Will play Brora, Tain and Golspie too during those four days. Then we play Cruden Bay on Saturday p.m. en route St Andrews.
We will join the Buda Cup festivities after that whilst in Fife.
Life is good! ;D 8)
Happy Anniversary!
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Bill,
You might want to throw in Fortrose as an afternoon round
while you're there.
Perhaps coming back from Nairn or after Tain.
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And maybe after picking up the rental cars in Inverness if we are there early enough. It certainly looks like fun!
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I'm most likely going to be arriving a few hours ahead of the rest of the crew and had been hatching a plan to stop off at Fortrose & Rosemarkie for a warmup round on the way from Inverness to Dornoch that Monday morning. Subject of course to finalization of my travel plans over the next few weeks.
Then again, once I get within 20 miles of Royal Dornoch I may not have the self control to do anything other than trying to get a game there as directly after arrival in the Highlands as possible. Lord knows I've been waiting long enough to see that great course.
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Brent - on the Tuesday we are 9 a.m. on the Struie, 2 p.m. on the Dornoch championship course. Wednesday at Nairn 10:30 a.m. Thursday 7:30 a.m. - 8 a.m. two balls at Dornoch championship course. All good stuff! ;D
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Tim,
I cannot recommend highly enough that you go to North Berwick. If you like quirk and flat out fun it is your place. If you like championship tests then Carnoustie may be the way to go.
As all others have stated TOC is a must on your first pilgrimage, and as Bill McBride pointed out walking TOC on Sunday when it is closed is a great idea. Don't forget to check out the Himalayas putting green. I totally spaced on that when I was there. You will be there around the time I was on my trip and I was able to golf 36 holes on the same day on TOC, so don't worry too much about getting on. I think that time of year the tourists haven't gotten in full swing yet.
Have fun planning.