Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Gary Daughters on October 30, 2007, 01:24:24 PM
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I've been back and forth on this, but now I think that in my wildest dreams I would love to play:
The Old Course
Machrihanish
Royal Dornoch
N. Berwick
Prestwick
Over:
Augusta Natl.
NGLA
Sand Hills
Cypress Point
Pine Valley
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Is this a dream to play once, or to play often?
And if it is a dream, well....
The Scotland courses require nothing but money - so if that's the sticking point, then keep dreaming. If the money can be arranged, why dream and not play?
The others require things other than money, and thus may be more of a dream.
And not to be an arrogant America's Guest, but I've played 7 out of the 10. I'm still dreaming about Augusta and Pine Valley, and may never make that dream come true at either. I WILL play Machrihanish, maybe in 2008.
So put me down for the US list. ;D
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As with Tom, I'd go for the American list, on the sheer point that they are more of a dream, seeing as they are all private and, as Tom said, require more than money to get on.
For the record, I haven't played any of the 10 (Hoping for National next summer!!!)
But I would, in my dreams that is, play four out of five of those US courses over all but TOC in Scotland, regardless of course caliber. Its just the way my mind works.
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5 of my personal top 6 are represented in this list. CPC, NGLA, PV, TOC, and Sand Hills (Shinnecock Hills got left out of your top 5 US somehow ;)). I would have to go with the US squad as well. Machrihanish needs to be seen though. I might put Ailsa ahead of N Berwick as well.
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Jim,
This is not meant as a ranking, strictly a personal thing.
I am not saying the Scottish courses are "better" courses. It's their strange allure that puts them on top for me.
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Gary: I figured that. But my reply stands. At least for me, if I am dreaming, it's about courses I can't get on. Oh I dream about those Scotland courses too, believe me.... but those are dreams that have come true - and can for anyone. The others are dreams that only a very very few fortunate can make happen.
So to me your US list is solid.... but the Scotland list doesn't seem dream-worthy, in this very weird way.
Weird point, I guess... but that's what struck me about all of this.
TH
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TH,
I totally get your point. Maybe it's time to stop dreaming :)
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TH,
I totally get your point. Maybe it's time to stop dreaming :)
... and start playing!
That's my main point, re Scotland anyway.
But I also understand it's not cheap...
TH
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But here's the thing.
Of the five Scottish courses I listed, I have played RD.
At least I think I have. Because not only was it a dream come true, that course in reality is truly dreamlike. I believe that's the undefinable (?) quality I'm talking about that the Scottish courses have over the Americans.
It's not something you can bottle or accomplish with an earthmover. Tom Doak could maybe tell you what it is, but I sure as hell can't.
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AHA!
Well now we are on to something. Sorry to be so dense - and so freakin literal and practical - before.
Yes, those great links do have a dreamlike quality that I would agree puts them over the US dream courses, for me as well. There's just something about links golf that is so different, so magical, so RIGHT... and GREAT links courses bring this out so perfectly... that well, yeah I too think we need a Tom Doak, or maybe Rich Goodale, to properly put this into words.
But I do get you, truly I do.
So in this manner, put me down for the Scottish five.
Fickle I am, consistent I am not.
;D
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TH
Keep the change ;D
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I think I'd have to go with Scotland. Although I'm just guessing from afar.
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I am still going with the US. The food stinks in Scotland too and I need to eat in my dreams as well ;D.
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Jim,
I've had plenty of unexpectedly good meals in Scotland and remain shocked that Sticky Toffee Pudding has not yet caught on here.
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Gary, even if I was a member of one of the American 5, I would pick the Scotland 5.
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Gary -
The best meal in Scotland was at the Dunvegan and it was where I would choose to eat every time. But other than that, I enjoyed the Pizza Hut by Prestwick the most.
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Gary -
The best meal in Scotland was at the Dunvegan and it was where I would choose to eat every time. But other than that, I enjoyed the Pizza Hut by Prestwick the most.
???
The fact that you were eating at Pizza Hut suggests this may not have been a fair comparison. Where are you comparing in the States? Chick Fil A (or whatever it's called)?
Don't get me wrong, one of the strong points of any visit to the States is the ability to eat reasonably at a good price and I think it probably does beat Scotland but in both you need to know where you are going or do some research first. Sounds like you didn't give Scotland a fair chance.
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it is true that you tend to have to hunt out good food in scotland... ireland is a different matter...
gary, by your definition of 'dream', then i guess it is scotland for me also...
having never played any of the american courses (and if i take history and availability out of the equation), it strikes me that shinnecock hills would be the one i would love to play over and over...
p.s. i realise you didn't include it ...
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Gary -
The best meal in Scotland was at the Dunvegan and it was where I would choose to eat every time. But other than that, I enjoyed the Pizza Hut by Prestwick the most.
???
The fact that you were eating at Pizza Hut suggests this may not have been a fair comparison. Where are you comparing in the States? Chick Fil A (or whatever it's called)?
Don't get me wrong, one of the strong points of any visit to the States is the ability to eat reasonably at a good price and I think it probably does beat Scotland but in both you need to know where you are going or do some research first. Sounds like you didn't give Scotland a fair chance.
They had a lunch for us at Prestwick and I could not tell what they were serving. It looked and smelled like week old mayo. As for eating in the states, I prefer a good steak, but I would rather not have the steak "fancied up" so to speak. I hate the new restaurants that have to make the portions tiny and add sauces and other crap that I just don't want.
My taste buds may not be as refined as yours, but I needed to eat and the Pizza Hut was perfect at the time.
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Gary -
The best meal in Scotland was at the Dunvegan and it was where I would choose to eat every time. But other than that, I enjoyed the Pizza Hut by Prestwick the most.
???
The fact that you were eating at Pizza Hut suggests this may not have been a fair comparison. Where are you comparing in the States? Chick Fil A (or whatever it's called)?
Don't get me wrong, one of the strong points of any visit to the States is the ability to eat reasonably at a good price and I think it probably does beat Scotland but in both you need to know where you are going or do some research first. Sounds like you didn't give Scotland a fair chance.
They had a lunch for us at Prestwick and I could not tell what they were serving. It looked and smelled like week old mayo. As for eating in the states, I prefer a good steak, but I would rather not have the steak "fancied up" so to speak. I hate the new restaurants that have to make the portions tiny and add sauces and other crap that I just don't want.
My taste buds may not be as refined as yours, but I needed to eat and the Pizza Hut was perfect at the time.
You gotta, gotta, gotta start watching Ramsay's Kitchen Nightmares on Fox in America or Kitchen Nightmares on the BBC. It is, hands-down, the best reality show, ever. You might never want to go out to eat again, but that's a different thread...
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There are plenty of excellent restaurants in Scotland, it just needs a bit of research in advance (or a recommendation).
Ramsey's kitchen nightmares shouldn't be taken as indicative of the standard of UK restaurants...
Back on topic I'd take the US top 5 simply because I view that list as unattainable whereas I am confident that I will complete the Scottish top 5 at some stage (Prestwick & Machrahanish still to play).
But would I be able to stand the food in the US given that its the home of MacDonalds? ;D
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Sorry - double post
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There are plenty of excellent restaurants in Scotland, it just needs a bit of research in advance (or a recommendation).
Ramsey's kitchen nightmares shouldn't be taken as indicative of the standard of UK restaurants...
Back on topic I'd take the US top 5 simply because I view that list as unattainable whereas I am confident that I will complete the Scottish top 5 at some stage (Prestwick & Machrahanish still to play).
But would I be able to stand the food in the US given that its the home of MacDonalds? ;D
Actually, the Ramsay's Kitchen Nightmares series that is running here in the States is all about U.S. restaurants. Trust me, there are plenty of shitholes that call themselves restaurants here. Whether it's a "classic English pub" outside of Liverpool or a "classic Indian" restaurant in Manhattan, there are horror stories and stories of redemption to be told and they're telling them on those two series.
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There are plenty of excellent restaurants in Scotland, it just needs a bit of research in advance (or a recommendation).
Please fill me in on some good places to eat in Scotland. There was a good pub I recall on the way from Troon to Glasgow, but I can't remember the name. I have St Andrews covered with the Dunvegan, but suggestions near Turnberry or Dornoch would be helpful.
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Here are a few.
Duck's in Aberlady
The Doll's House in St. Andrews
The Sea Food Restaurant in St. Andrews
Bella Italia in North Berwick
Road Hole Bar in the Old Course Hotel for appetizers
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Thanks Daryl for the suggestions, I will make note. Also, I should have said I am not a huge seafood fan and there seems to be an abundance of seafood eaten in Scotland.
I will say the golf there is worth the struggle for food. My two trips to Scotland were the best two trips I have taken for golf.
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It may hurt me to admit, but even as a transplanted Brit...I have to go for the US 5.
I hvae played 4 out of the 5 on both lists, and think the US side edges to victory!
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Sorry make that 3 out of 5 on the US team...but I would place Merion in my top 5 anyway and then it would be 4 ;D
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Jim,
Sutherland House (I think that's the name.. Sutherland something) on the square in Dornoch is a truly fine restaurant. Try Luigi's for lunch.. their local salad greens are memorable. The dinner scene at Tain GC, worth the little trip, is remarkable for its earthy comraderie. Plus if you go to Dornoch you must play Tain period.
The club at Lossiemouth serves a fine meal if you happen to get over that way, which I do recommend.
Udny Arms in Aberdeen purports to be the originator of the aforementioned Sticky Toffee pudding and serves up a nice dinner as well.
Gary
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Awesome Gary, thanks for the info. I can't wait for my next trip.
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The Cellar in Anstruther, The Cross at Kingussie.
Plenty of very fine food (The Peat Inn, several in Edinburgh, many in Glasgow) and some very good basics (I assume there'll be a BUDA VI trip to the Anstruther Chippy).
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Sitting here, sipping a single malt at the end of the day - I'm going to have to go with the Scottish 5.
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Speaking of the BBC, I've been watching TopGear on BBC America and it can be extremely funny. It's on Saturday and Monday nights.
You gotta, gotta, gotta start watching Ramsay's Kitchen Nightmares on Fox in America or Kitchen Nightmares on the BBC. It is, hands-down, the best reality show, ever. You might never want to go out to eat again, but that's a different thread...
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Not even close.
Augusta, National, Cypress, c'mon now..
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How many of the ten courses listed have you played Jordan?
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Chris,
None.
But there's no way I choose the Scotland five. If anything because of access.
But, if that were not an issue, my two dream courses are on the American list, CPC, and NGLA.
No way I could pass those down, even if, as mentioned, access were no issue.
Cypress Point would be like an absolute dream...there is no course I'd rather play, ever.
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First of all, the question isn't really a fair one as has been pointed out because any of us can play all of the 5 Scottish courses without any problem, whereas the US courses are down to privilege, who you know and a bit of luck, so more of a real dream. Also, your 5 may not be my 5. I know that my dream Scottish 5 wouldn't include North Berwick. It's great, but not top 5.
Then, of course, there's the inclination to favour what we know. Jordan's answer, given by someone who has never played a links course, illustrates that.
What does the question really go to? Is it "which 5 would you chooseto play if someone offerred you a trip next summer?" or "if you only had 5 courses you could play forever, which of these 5 would you choose?". The answer to those two questions is different, of course. The US courses are ones I've never played and probably never will, so I'd jump at the chance to experience those great places. However, if I had to choose 5 courses to play for evere it would be a Scottish 5 because I could not choosenot to play links golf.
And the food doesn't make much difference to me. I'll eat well in either Scotland or the US!
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USA by a wisker, but scotland would claw it back if it could include Ireland.
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I would like to echo Jordan's sentiments. I have played only one course that could be considered top 5 caliber (Merion) but I think that the US 5 would be much more appealing that the Scottish 5. The US list has variety where Scotland is all links courses. My personal top 5 courses in the US that I would most like to play would be: Pine Valley, Cypress Point, Shinnecock, Sand Hills. There is great variety in style and strategy at those courses while the Scottish links all encourage the ground game. I'm not saying this to say that they are all the same. I'm just saying the US has much greater variety.
I would rather play the top 5 in Ireland (Royal Portrush, Royal County Down, Lahinch, Ballybunion, and maybe The European Club) than the top 5 in Scotland
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I would like to echo Jordan's sentiments. I have played only one course that could be considered top 5 caliber (Merion) but I think that the US 5 would be much more appealing that the Scottish 5. The US list has variety where Scotland is all links courses. My personal top 5 courses in the US that I would most like to play would be: Pine Valley, Cypress Point, Shinnecock, Sand Hills. There is great variety in style and strategy at those courses while the Scottish links all encourage the ground game. I'm not saying this to say that they are all the same. I'm just saying the US has much greater variety.
Call me crazy, but I would rather play the top 5 in Ireland (Royal Portrush, Royal County Down, Lahinch, Ballybunion, and maybe The European Club) than the top 5 in Scotland
Steve,
I agree.
If I could play any course in Europe, it would be RCD. TOC would be a close second.
And I think I would take an Ireland trip over a Scotland trip.
But Scotland is still a dream of mine too!
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You guys can say what you will, but I'd still rather drink a beer on a bench outside Royal Dornoch than on the veranda at Augusta National. More ghosts at Dornoch.
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For what it's worth, it doesn't seem like the Scottish courses can hold a candle to the US courses from a variety perspective...but then again, I'd guess the American courses don't hold a candle to the Scottish on an individual, day-in and day-out variety basis.
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I've played the Scotland courses except Macrahanish - plan to catch it in '09. I have only walked Augusta and PV.
I am evolving in this "dream course" adventure - right now I would say I tend toward the Scotland courses - they have far exceeded my wildest expectations as a golfing experience.
For example, it was magical walking up to the Redan in the late afternoon, blue-grey sky and a golfing friend right there with me. Same at Royal Dornoch and TOC. Just magical!
I just don't think I can recreate something like that just because it's ANGC or PV. Frankly, now that I've walked PV, I'm not sure I would really enjoy playing it - I don't think I have the game for it. If you're not long off the tee, and have a low, single digit handicap, you are in for a very long, unrelenting day. I opt for Scotland.
As for food, don't forget the lunch buffet at Muirfield.
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Jim,
Sutherland House (I think that's the name.. Sutherland something) on the square in Dornoch is a truly fine restaurant. Try Luigi's for lunch.. their local salad greens are memorable. The dinner scene at Tain GC, worth the little trip, is remarkable for its earthy comraderie. Plus if you go to Dornoch you must play Tain period.
The club at Lossiemouth serves a fine meal if you happen to get over that way, which I do recommend.
Udny Arms in Aberdeen purports to be the originator of the aforementioned Sticky Toffee pudding and serves up a nice dinner as well.
Gary
Gary
Next time you are in Dornoch try Luigi's at night, the Castle and Two Quail. They are all better than Sutherland's, which I agree is a very fine place to eat. I've also heard that the new chef at Tain is great, which might just bring me back there... ;) There is also the Bridge Hotel at Helmsdale, which Philip Gawiath can vouch for.
As to the main point, I'd go for the USA if only because I haven't played 3 of the 5 you have listed whilst I know the Scottish ones very well. However, it is a hypothetical, and one which really doesn't compare apples to apples, at least if you look at the two experiences realistically and holistically.
To do the USA Gang of Five you would need a Gulfstream and a lot of time and logistical angst. If you took only a week to do it you would be frazzled at the end, and probably remember pakcing and unpacking your suitcase more than the golf. Two weeks would be the minimum I would even think of spending on a trip like this. But what if you decided you liked Pine Valley or Augusta so much that you wanted to stay for a few more days, or even a week, to hang out with the home boys and play some more golf? This is where hyoptheticals become fantasies, at least in the USA.
Alternatively, you could do your Scottish Gang of Five with a minibus rather than a jet easily in a week, and if you wanted to stay for two weeks, you could have at least two good days at each place. Not only that, but if you decided you wanted to stay for half of the time in North Berwick, to hang out with the home boys, you could do it, on the spot, most times of the year!
Not only that, but your list, as fine as it is, is personal. Just off the top of my head I made up 3 more lists which could be just as satisfying, using 15 other Scottish courses. How about:
Muirfield
Carnoustie
Turnberry
Loch Lomond
Western Gailes
or...
Royal Aberdeen
Cruden Bay
Murcar
Panmure
Gleneagles (Kings)
or...
Brora
Machrie
Elie
Gullane
Kingsbarns
What Scotalnd has that the USA will never have is both propinquity (pace Zelda Gilroy...) and access.
And the golf ain't bad, either.
Rich